From dharao4@yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 01 02:49:08 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dharao4@yahoo.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41390 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2004 10:49:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2004 10:49:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web86906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) (217.12.13.58) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2004 10:49:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 23575 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Dec 2004 10:48:48 -0000 Message-ID: <20041201104848.23573.qmail@web86906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Received: from [217.207.134.34] by web86906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:48:48 GMT Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:48:48 +0000 (GMT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 217.12.13.58 From: robert searle Subject: Faqir Chand, and the Higher Self. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=174372458 X-Yahoo-Profile: dharao4 Dear ALL, I am replying essentially here to Mr. Caldwell, and Mr. Coles. The former makes the very interesting point that it is the Higher Self which is the REAL GURU. Personally, I concur. However, an external master is also vital as he, or she offers something visible, and accessible to our limited five senses to love, and respect. You may have heard of Faqir Chand easily traceable on the internet. He was a respected shabd yoga mystic who was regarded as God in human form by his devotees. However, whenever they wrote or talked about their inner, and outer miracles with Him Chand confessed that he knew nothing about them...even though He was meant to be omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent!!! To some RS purists this suggested that he was not a real master, or Sant Satguru. Yet, Chand gave an interesting, and unusual spin on this situation. He said that it was the devotees belief, and love in Him which prompted a whole variety of inner, and outer miracles connected with Himself. He also notably made the point that the same thing would happen even if the master were not perfect!!! I personally believe the above is the most likely truth. I feel there is a part of us all that exists beyond time, and space. It is our Higher Self or rather our future Perfected Self which can using a variety of guises help us in our spiritual evolution. Outer gurus, or teachers act as the visible means to reach the invisible. It may well be that no Sant Satguru has to be perfect absolutely in the moral sense as our Higher Self, or Perfected Self in this bizarre Mono-Drama. When Sant Mat says we need to seek a Perfect Master, it may well really mean we need to seek our Perfect, or Higher Self via a visible guru. Since, the Self is really our God it would through a Sat Satguru being able to connect us to the Sound Current. It is important to understand that shabd yoga should not be confused with nada yoga. Though both are concerned with inner sound the latter only deals with the lower ones of the astral planes. I see Mr. Coles and someone called Babara have been hearing the audible manifestation of spirit. Scott-Rogo once wrote a two volume book on this subject simply called NAD. ___________________________________________________________ Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality. Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Dec 01 03:34:10 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7035 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2004 11:34:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2004 11:34:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.69) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2004 11:34:08 -0000 Received: from [209.179.128.83] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CZSdw-0002eN-5P; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 06:27:34 -0500 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 03:27:11 -0800 Message-ID: <000101c4d798$bf2d14a0$5380b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7976bdb58979f661640ba20fa8cb2f1228350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.69 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.128.83 Subject: RE: [theosophia] Re: A Prophecy about the T.S. in India X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 30 2004 AN OLD PROPHECY=20 This old prophecy about the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY has been published before, but ought to be given consideration, now that we have just passed the 129th year of its founding on November 17th. Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D AN OLD PROPHECY ABOUT THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY=20 A PRECURSOR TO THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 A Yogis Prophecy =20=20 What appears to have been a forerunner of The Theosophical Society=20 in India was the Samarasa Veda Sanmarga Sangham, founded in 1867 by=20 Ramalingam Swami a famous South Indian Yogi, to spread the=20 principle of Universal Brotherhood and propagate the true doctrine of the= =20 Vedas.=20 The lofty ethics of this teachings were not popular, mostly=20 because he preached against caste, saying that the distinction=20 between races and castes would eventually cease and Universal=20 Brotherhood would be accepted.=20 Towards the end of his life Ramalingam Yogi made the following=20 astonishing prophecy, and made it repeatedly: =20 "You are not ready to become members of this Society of Universal=20 Brotherhood. The real members of that Brotherhood are living far=20 away, towards the north of India. You do not listen to me. Yet the=20 time is not far off when persons from Russia, America and other=20 foreign lands will come to India and preach to you the same=20 doctrine of Universal Brotherhood. Then only will you know and=20 appreciate the grand truths that I am vainly trying to make you to=20 accept.=20 You will soon find that the Brothers who live in the far North will work a= =20 great many wonders in India, and thus confer incalculable benefits=20 upon this our country." =20 These facts are recorded in " Hints on Esoteric Theosophy" by=20 Pandit Velayudam, a pupil of Ramalingam and Tamil Professor of the=20 Presidency College, Madras, who adds this note: "This prophecy has in my opinion just been literally fulfilled. The=20 facts that the Mahatmas in the North exist is no new idea to us=20 Hindus; and the strange fact that the advent of Madame Blavatsky=20 and Colonel Olcott from Russia and America was foretold several years=20 before they came to India is an incontrovertible proof that my guru=20 was in contact with those Mahatmas under whose direction the=20 Theosophical Society was subsequently founded."=20 =20 H.P. Blavatsky comments on these remarks of Pandit Velayudam: This is one of those cases of previous foretelling of a coming=20 event, which is least of all open to suspicious of bad faith. The=20 honorable character of the witness, the wide publicity of his=20 Guru's announcements, and the impossibility that he could have got from=20 public rumor, or the journals of the day, any intimation that the=20 Theosophical Society would operate in India - all these conspire to=20 support the inference that Ramalingam Yogi was verily in the=20 counsels of Those who ordered us to found the Society.=20 In March 1873 we were directed to proceed from Russia to Paris.=20 In June 1873 we were told to proceed to the United States where we=20 arrived July 6th .=20 This was the very time when Ramalingam was most forcibly=20 refiguring the events that should happen.=20 In October 1874 we received an intimation to do to Chittenden, Vermont,=20 where, at the famous homestead of the Eddy family, Colonel Olcott was=20 engaged in making his investigations - now so celebrated in the annals of= =20 Spiritualism - of the so called "materialization of Spirits."=20=20=20 =20 November 1975 the Theosophical Society was founded, and it was not=20 until 1878 that the correspondence began with friends in India=20 which resulted in the transfer of the Society's Headquarters to Bombay=20 in February 1879. =20 Note. Ramalingam Yogi died or rather "disappeared," in 1874, at=20 Valadur near Chidambaram his birthplace.=20 At Valadur he built a dharmasala, or mission house, where the poor were=20 given and are still given, food and shelter free. He is credited with occult=20 powers which enable him to perform what are called miracles,=20 quenching fire, turning water into oil, changing carnivorous people=20 into vegetarians.=20 His Tiru Arutpa (Path of Light) is among the masterpieces of the Tamil literature. ------------------------------------------- =20 Extracted from the article: "The Progressive Founding of the T.S."=20=20 written by J. L. Davidge=20 published in THEOSOPHIST, July 1939. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Many thanks Erica and Steve I am going to give this a wider circulation if you don't mind Thanks for finding it. Dallas=20=20=20 Nov 30 2004 From compiler@wisdomworld.org Wed Dec 01 12:05:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 79811 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2004 20:05:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2004 20:05:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ams006.ftl.affinity.com) (216.219.253.152) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2004 20:05:57 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org ([68.55.92.204]) by ams006.ftl.affinity.com with ESMTP id <366451-18539>; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:05:03 -0500 Message-ID: <41AE238B.C471FC4D@wisdomworld.org> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 15:03:22 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 216.219.253.152 From: Compiler Subject: 24 articles about JESUS in the "LIGHT OF THEOSOPHY" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=46028585 X-Yahoo-Profile: john_compiler_wisdomworld I hope that many readers, especially newcomers to theosophy, will find this collection of articles about JESUS, all presented in the bright and profound "Light of Theosophy", to be very informative and useful and that they will greatly add to the various views that people everywhere have about him -- giving much food-for-thought for everyone to ponder over, concerning what he was all about. All of the articles are from THEOSOPHY magazine, and are on my WisdomWorld.org web site. These 1st two articles are taken from the 166-article "Setting the Stage" Introductory book. They are the 2nd and 3rd articles in the 29-part "GREAT THEOSOPHISTS" series that runs from article number 130 to 158 in the book. This is the link to the index page where you can see the titles of all 166 articles in the book. They are numbers (131) and (132): http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html If you don't want to scroll down the Index page to get to them, these are their direct links: (131) Great Theosophists: Jesus, the Christ (Part 1 of 2): http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/jesusone.html (132) Great Theosophists: Jesus, the Christ (Part 2 of 2): http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/jesustwo.html ================================================ These next 6 articles about Jesus are from THE CHRISTIAN SCHEME, 36-part series. They are numbers 11, 21, 22, 23, 24, and 25 in it -- followed by a 7th article here which is an additional article that follows the series, and is number (37). If for some reason the links to them are broken because of their length, this shorter link is to the 5th of 18 sections on the "Additional" articles Index page that is entitled "CHRISTIANITY IN THE 'LIGHT OF THEOSOPHY'". The link to the series is the 1st one that's listed in it: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html#5 If you don't want to scroll down the Index page to get to them, and they are not broken here, these are their direct links: (11) GNOSIS AND CHRISTIANITY: Jesus-Logos-Christos: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/christianity/Jesus-Logos-Christos.html (21) JESUS: A True Nazarene: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/christianity/Jesus-ATrueNazarene.html (22) JESUS: A Great Reformer: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/christianity/Jesus-AGreatReformer.html (23) JESUS: Various Views: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/christianity/Jesus-VariousViews.html (24) JESUS: Was He Unique?: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/christianity/Jesus-WasHeUnique.html (25) JESUS: Buddha, Jesus, Apollonius: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/christianity/JesusBuddhaApollonius.html This next one is the "additional" article. It's about the first of the so-called Christian "heresies". It's all about the physical death of Jesus and his physical resurrection: (37) THE DOCETAE: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/christianity/TheDocetae.html ====================================== These next articles about Jesus are a 12-part series that is entitled: JESUS: INITIATE AND TEACHER The articles all have the same name and are only numbered under the title. And as with the above 6 articles from "The Christian Scheme" series, it's also found in the 5th of 18 sections on the "Additional" articles Index page that is entitled "CHRISTIANITY IN THE 'LIGHT OF THEOSOPHY'". The link to the series is the 5th one that's listed in it: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html#5 ================================================== These next 3 articles about Jesus are from the grouping of articles entitled: A LISTING OF 329 COLLATED ARTICLES If for some reason the links are broken because of their length, this shorter link is to the section on the "Additional" articles Index page that is entitled "A Listing of 329 Collated Articles" (it's the 12th of 18 sections on the page). Then click on the only link that's found in it to the alphabetized Index page, and scroll down to the articles which are each listed the way you see the titles just below: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html#12 If you don't want to scroll down the Index page to get to them, and they are not broken here, these are their direct links: JESUS AND HIS TEACHING: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/ListOfCollatedArticles/JesusAndHisTeaching.html JESUS: PHILOSOPHER AND REFORMER: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/ListOfCollatedArticles/JesusPhilosAndReformer.html WHO CRUCIFIES THE CHRIST?: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/ListOfCollatedArticles/WhoCrucifiesTheChrist.html ================================ Dear newcomers to Theosophy: I sincerely do hope that my web site offers a well-rounded overall view of Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement. The 3 main links to everything on it are found below. Please know that I'm only the compiler of all the articles found on my web site; I'm not a scholar; and also that I personally do not like to take part in conversations, even though I do hope that what I present from time to time will help a little in the discussions being carried on by others. So please do not be insulted when I do not respond if someone addresses me, or addresses anything that is found in any of the articles on my web site; I leave that for others to deal with if they want to -- whether pro, con, neutral, friendly or unfriendly. John DeSantis (Compiler) ------- You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: WisdomWorld.org web site (Main Page): http://www.wisdomworld.org This is the Index page of the "Introductory", "Setting the Stage" book, which was especially compiled for newcomers to Theosophy: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html The page where "Additional" articles are slowly being added (which contains 18 sections that can each be clicked on at the top of the page in order to go directly down to them, as well as to get the link to any particular section that you may want to use in a posting on a discussion board, or in an e-mail to someone): http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html "PUBLIC & PRIVATE ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT FORUM": This next link is to the most updated version of my economic proposal to humanity, a practical project to help our suffering world that I also consider to be Theosophical. In it you will find a new and unique, but mostly unknown, economic system model that might be able to put an end to involuntary poverty on earth. How? It presents a way to fully finance everything of importance that is needed in every nation. Because of this it's well worth pointing to. Please note that, for strategic reasons, of wanting it to have the best chance of being accepted by all peoples worldwide, no matter what their religious, philosophical, and scientific beliefs are, I've put it on a completely different web site; it contains no mention of, or link to, the Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement that is presented on my WisdomWorld.org web site: http://www.PublicAndPrivateEnterprise.org ------- From dharao4@yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 01 13:46:14 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dharao4@yahoo.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 10598 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2004 21:46:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2004 21:46:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web86906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) (217.12.13.58) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2004 21:46:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 92098 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Dec 2004 21:46:07 -0000 Message-ID: <20041201214607.92091.qmail@web86906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Received: from [217.207.134.106] by web86906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 21:46:07 GMT Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 21:46:07 +0000 (GMT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 217.12.13.58 From: robert searle Subject: Theosophical Economics, and DeSantis........... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=174372458 X-Yahoo-Profile: dharao4 Dear ALL Apart from DeSantis collection of Christian literature put on-line at Theos-Talk I was fascinated to see his ideas on Economics. Apart from Multi-Dimensional Science in R&D I am also the inventor of Transfinancial Economics in R&D. DeSantis might be interested in the latter, and can find out more at the XAT community website but would have to use the cached button to get a copy of my writings. Robert Searle ___________________________________________________________ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From leonmaurer@a... Wed Dec 01 20:00:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@a... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 57851 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2004 04:00:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2004 04:00:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d20.mx.aol.com) (205.188.139.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2004 04:00:05 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@a... by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.df.7d39739 (14374) for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 22:58:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 22:58:21 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.139.136 From: leonmaurer@a... Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophical Economics, and DeSantis........... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Can't read your articles -- since the only things that are cached are the dead links on xat home page. As for "Multi-Dimensional Science, check out... http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics. Be interested in reading your take on the subject. Leon Maurer In a message dated 12/01/04 6:00:03 PM, dharao4@y... writes: >Dear ALL > > > > Apart from DeSantis collection of Christian > >literature put on-line at Theos-Talk I was fascinated > >to see his ideas on Economics. Apart from > >Multi-Dimensional Science in R&D I am also the > >inventor of Transfinancial Economics in R&D. DeSantis > >might be interested in the latter, and can find out > >more at the XAT community website but would have to > >use the cached button to get a copy of my writings. > > > > Robert Searle From dharao4@y... Thu Dec 02 03:02:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dharao4@y... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69600 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2004 11:02:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2004 11:02:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web86901.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) (217.12.13.53) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2004 11:02:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 58332 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Dec 2004 11:02:47 -0000 Message-ID: <20041202110247.58330.qmail@w...> Received: from [217.207.134.34] by web86901.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 11:02:47 GMT Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:02:47 +0000 (GMT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 217.12.13.53 From: robert searle Subject: Leon Mauren, and the XAT Website. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=174372458 X-Yahoo-Profile: dharao4 Dear Mr. Mauren, and Company There should be no problem accessing my material on the XAT website using the Cached button even though the links are dead. Again use google and key Multi-Dimensional Science, and the Progress of Humanity and you should get a whole series of writings readily accessible. Likewise, use google key in Non-Taxation Revolution which should lead to cached entries on the contents of this paper, and to a basic introduction on the subject of Transfinancial Economics in R&D. Multi-Dimensional Science is also in R&D. Using google key in the words Greater Clarification on Inflation Control, and this should lead you to a contents page (of recent posts), and to a whole series of writings. Please note that the first part of the Transifinancial Economics paper can be found after section or "chapter" 9 of it if I recall rightly, and is titled Legal Access to Financial Power. I am may be setting up an independant site not hosted by XAT community as I have been having some problems with them. Stay tuned. I must thank Leon Maurens link to his website, and I have yet to fully understand it before passing any comments. ___________________________________________________________ Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality. Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k From danielhcaldwell@y... Thu Dec 02 09:53:38 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@y... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66841 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2004 17:53:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2004 17:53:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.42) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2004 17:53:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2004 17:52:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2004 17:52:35 -0000 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 17:52:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1114 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.42 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Review by Katinka Hesselink of "The Judge Case" book by Ernest E. Pelletier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Recently the following book was published: The Judge Case: A Conspiracy Which Ruined the Theosophical Cause by Ernest E. Pelletier Ordering information can be found at: http://www.theosophycanada.com/ets_judge_case.pdf Katinka Hesselink, editor of Lucifer7, has now written and published an informative review of this book in the latest December 2004 issue of Lucifer7. See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lucifer7/message/17 I have reprinted the review in an easier format to print at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/judgecasereviewbykatinka.htm Katinka also compiled a more complete table of contents for the book under review. I have also created a pdf version of this more complete table that will be easier to read and print out at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/wqjcasetableofcontents.pdf I am hoping that Ernest Pelletier will respond to Katinka's review on this Theos-Talk forum which is open to the public and is also indexed by Google. Later I plan to add a few comments of my own on "The Judge Case" book and also on Katinka's review. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER http://hpb.cc From mhart@i... Thu Dec 02 12:33:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@i... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72916 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2004 20:33:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2004 20:33:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO keymaster.look.ca) (207.136.80.9) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2004 20:33:57 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.117] (helo=idirect.ca) by keymaster.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CZxe5-0005vS-Cb for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 20:33:45 +0000 Message-ID: <41AF7C9B.3060902@i...> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 15:35:39 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@i... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.9 From: Mauri Subject: re teachings/Masters today and in ancient Egypt, South America and elsewhere X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn re teachings/Masters today and in ancient Egypt, South America and elsewhere According to Inca/Andean legend, the Nazca lines were made by "namesakes of Virachoca" (page 43, FINGER-PRINTS OF THE GODS by Graham Hancock). Apparently Virachoca (translated as "Foam of the Sea") was said to have appeared after much destruction by a deluge. He was described as a white, bearded man in a robe. Page 46: <> In ancient Egypt a similar teacher was named Osiris, apparently offering similar instructions. And according to the Chaldean scribe, Berosus, another such teacher was Oannes. Page 81: <> In short, I'm wondering if there might be a connection between the Nazca lines and modern day crop circles, and if both might be regarded as the works of Masters who might want to alert and remind people that a greater reality exists, a reality that transcends the conventional/orthodox materialistic trends. Seems to me that the persistent, ongoing appearance of numerous, complex crop circles around the world is flying in the face of orthodox/conventional attitudes. Speculatively, Mauri From perrycoles@yahoo.com Thu Dec 02 18:24:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: perrycoles@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73340 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2004 02:24:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2004 02:24:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2004 02:24:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Dec 2004 02:23:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.171] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Dec 2004 02:23:58 -0000 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 02:23:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2697 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.41 From: "Perry Coles" X-Originating-IP: 203.59.158.9 Subject: Re: Review by Katinka Hesselink of "The Judge Case" book by Ernest E. Pelletier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=93736069 X-Yahoo-Profile: perrycoles Thanks Daniel and Katinka This is a good article.... It's interesting how this concept of a "successor" is an issue of great debate in the various Theosophical Societies. A similar problem is in the various Radhasoami groups who all argue over "successor =96ship". While in the Radhasoami's I can understand why there is an issue over this due to their belief in need for a "perfect Master" to guide the initiates. In Theosophy however there is no such concept as each student must walk his or her own path. Is this need for "successors" based in the need for a rescuer or perhaps a hangover from the old hierarchical mindset and "divine Kings and Queens" being crowned with power from on high or perhaps HPB's highly "magnetised" Divine Ring of power. Maybe both Judge and Besant where still of this ilk. De Purucker's writings also express this authoritarian / hierarchical type of mindset of course it goes without saying CWL was a complete shocker when it came to pronouncements and his belief in superiority of the ruling classes. It's interesting that the society was set up on a democratic system rather than an autocracy or some kind of theosophical monarchy with "successors". It's a shame that the society fell into the trap of guru following and this nonsense idea of successor-ship and divine oracles, rather than implementing the principles of democracy on which the society was established. Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: >=20 > Recently the following book was published: >=20 > The Judge Case: A Conspiracy Which > Ruined the Theosophical Cause > by Ernest E. Pelletier >=20 > Ordering information can be found at: >=20 > http://www.theosophycanada.com/ets_judge_case.pdf >=20 > Katinka Hesselink, editor of Lucifer7, has > now written and published an informative review of > this book in the latest December 2004 > issue of Lucifer7. See: >=20 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lucifer7/message/17 >=20 > I have reprinted the review in an easier format > to print at: >=20 > http://blavatskyarchives.com/judgecasereviewbykatinka.htm >=20 > Katinka also compiled a more complete table of contents > for the book under review. I have also created a pdf version > of this more complete table that will be easier to read > and print out at: >=20 > http://blavatskyarchives.com/wqjcasetableofcontents.pdf >=20 > I am hoping that Ernest Pelletier will respond to Katinka's > review on this Theos-Talk forum which is open to the public > and is also indexed by Google. >=20 > Later I plan to add a few comments of my own on "The Judge > Case" book and also on Katinka's review. >=20 > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER > http://hpb.cc From bta101@hotmail.com Thu Dec 02 19:54:11 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bta101@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41785 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2004 03:54:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2004 03:54:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.50) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2004 03:54:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n21.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Dec 2004 03:54:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.143] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Dec 2004 03:54:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 03:53:40 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1934 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.50 From: "bta1012003" X-Originating-IP: 63.202.173.223 Subject: Re: THE RADHASOAMI FAITH, AND THEOSOPHY. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=118449510 X-Yahoo-Profile: bta1012003 > > Hi Barbara, > Its interesting that you've had this experience as well. > My experience was that it started off sounding as if it was above my > head or outside of myself as the sound became more intense I seemed to > merge into the sound and become apart of it rather than it being > separate from me. > > Its interesting that this experience and some others happened around a > time of great transition in my life. > The explanation of the "sound" being that of the `ethers' is quite > possible but I don't know for sure. > It certainly was a profound experience for me at any rate. > > What are the impressions you have with your experiences ? > > Perry Hi Perry: Reading your statements above makes me think that your experience is more of a spiritual nature than mine, because mine lacks the quality you described and I never merged into the sound. When I first started to meditate with a Buddhist group, over three decades ago, there were times I heard a piercing, high pitch ring in my ears. I learned, subsequently, (and it seems reasonable to me,) that I was hearing my own nerves. But, there was one time, deep in meditation, that I heard the sweet melodic sound of a flute. Later on, for about a year or more, I heard a loud, thunderous, noise. It happened every time before I left my body. It was not a pleasant sensation, due to its deafening character. I am glad that had ceased many years ago. In recent years I often hear the sound of silence, it is like the sound one hears upon walking into a hollow cave. I am guessing that it has to do with moving through the etheric web that is on the top of the head center to the outside of the body. These are my observations that I collected from my practice. I never intentionally seek or even think much about these sounds. They are just byproducts of different states of consciousness. Best to you, barbara > From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Dec 02 21:14:49 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 42001 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2004 05:14:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2004 05:14:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2004 05:14:48 -0000 Received: from [209.179.216.15] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Ca5m9-00007G-AU; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 00:14:45 -0500 To: Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 21:10:21 -0800 Message-ID: <003b01c4d8f6$fb0b4230$e293b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79fccf26812d6dee9d8085c10f6e7d8c31350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.67 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.216.15 Subject: RE: [bn-study] Re: Chapter 2, page 15 - Akasha and the Astral Light X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 1 2004 The following may also be of help ABSOLUTE =96 An Analogy UNIVERSAL ALL =3D=3D A PRESENCE =94Paranishpanna, remember, is the summum bonum, the Absolute, hence the sa= me as Paranirvana. Besides being the final state it is that condition of subjectivity which has no relation to anything but the one absolute truth (Param=E2rthasatya) on its plane. It is that state which leads one to appreciate correctly the full meaning of Non-Being, which, as explained, is absolute Being. Sooner or later, all that now seemingly exists, will be in reality and actually in the state of Paranishpanna. But there is a great difference between conscious and unconscious =93being.=94 The condition of Paranishpanna, without Param=E2rtha, the Self-analysing consciousness (Svasamvedana), is no bliss, but simply extinction (for Seven Eternities). Thus, an iron ball placed under the scorching rays of the sun will get heated through, but will not feel or appreciate the warmth, while a man will. It is only =93with a mind clear and undarkened by personality, and a= n assimilation of the merit of manifold existences devoted to being in its collectivity (the whole living and sentient Universe),=94 that one gets rid= of personal existence, merging into, becoming one with, the Absolute,* and continuing in full possession of Param=E2rtha. "=20 S D I 53-4 -------------------------------------------------------------- The Shirt-tail Saints Figures of speech or analogies seem to be absolutely essential to express the realities of Profundity. The direct meaning of language does not express the actuality of the Higher Consciousness. We might say that the Actuality envelopes the expression but is not directly contained in it. Thus the reader should strive not so much to understand the formal meaning contained in these writings, but to make a certain turn In his own consciousness toward a Matrix that surrounds expression. He should concentrate upon faint stirring in his consciousness which he cannot really express, even to himself. They constitute a certain =91plus= =92 quality added onto the formal meaning.=20=20 The formal meaning serves as a sort of focal point that entrains the subtle =91plus value. It is very hard to reach the latter without the use of a fo= cal point until a rather high level of spiritual development is attained. Henc= e it remains important to employ various means of expression. But if the expression is taken too much in the rigorous or defined sense, the real and deeper Meaning is lost. Therefore, the words of an Illumined Man should never be taken in the literal sense when He is giving a cross-translation from the Beyond. = =20 Now, the =91plus=92 quality at first is almost indistinguishable from nothi= ng or emptiness. It is like a breath that has just escaped, a momentary gleam caught from the corner of the eye that disappears when the full focus of sight is turned upon it. It must be reached for very gently, as one must act in seeking the confidence of a defenseless and fearful creature of the wilds. One should reach out almost as though not reaching at all. A time will come when This that is so very subtle will be transformed into = a Presence more palpable and stronger than the roughest granite. It will manifest a Power so great that It will dissolve not only the immediate fiel= d but even the whole universe.=20=20 But the Great Power is rarely in the beginning a clearly dominant force, an= d It must be assimilated very carefully or It will disappear in the first stages. In the beginning it may seem that one is walking a tight-rope over unmeasured spaces, and the necessary balance is extremely hard to hold. In the end the rope becomes all Space, the Supreme Support of all universes bu= t Itself in need of no support.=20=20 Visible man, in that case, has been transformed and has become the all-containing Matrix. No longer, then, does he struggle to keep his balance on a rope, but he finds Himself everywhere and therefore Invulnerable. (Pathways Through to Space, p. 147) "The immediate effect of a state of consciousness having a one-way dependence on, or relation to the subject, and no object, is that of a vast void. It is an "I" suspended in an utter voidness. At once a process of "enantio-dromia" [Jung, Psychological Types, 541-42.] transforms the voidness into the value of substantial fullness. This is a "thickness" tha= t I am quite sure would much more than meet James's requirement.=20=20 I know of no empiric content that in the faintest degree suggests this quality of fullness, which is the actual palpable Presence of Divinity itself. It is nothing so crude as a vast person in space, but a Presence that permeates all space, interwoven throughout the objects of ordinary consciousness, yet more completely present where those objects are not. = =20 The effect is a radical reversal of all former values, and a resolution of many of just those problems to which empiricism can give no satisfactory answer." (Transformations in Consciousness, p. 112) [from AQUARIAN THEOSOPHIST, Supp., Jan 2004 ] ----------------------------------------------------------- Here below are some of the best contributions received. Why not use the idea of UNIVERSAL SPIRIT for that which in religions has been designated =93God?=94 It is UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD as a living fact. = It has always been there and will continue to be there, and we will always be in and with IT. Its beginnings (and ours) are of the same duration, and that cannot be measured in terms of whet we call time, distance or motion. Call it a sublime IDEA. Some of these concepts can appeal to us and we can then use them as avenues of thought to universalize IT, and those will cause us to see it first in ourselves as our dearest friend, and closest tutor, and then, if we reach out to the radiance in everything, we will sense it in a daisy, the Sun, ou= r friends and family, in a grain of sand or a cloud, in the roaring fire or tinkling brook - wherever we may project or stretch our minds -- there some for, of LIFE IS. Then, if we agree that we can see God everywhere, who are we to change or destroy that presence or manifestation and to be tyrants or oppressors ? I= f we think God is all-knowledge , and is omnipresent, then we cannot hide -- ever. Nor can we =91escape=92 from the consequences of our choices. There is an old hymn or verse that says:=20=20 =93Never was I not, never was I not.=94 Never will I cease to be. Never the Spirit was IT not, Beginnings and ends are but dreams.=94 ------------------------------------------------- Questions: How can we exit from Materialism? A. -- How often in framing our concepts do we rely on our education? Almost all the time. At what point do we begin to question some of the basics that were given to us as facts and truths, and which we later find out are only hypotheses? What is an atom, what makes it move? What is electricity, magnetism, light, what causes these, and why are they always described in terms of their effects and not in terms of their actual causes ? True that for our present Western frame of mind (as well as often in the East as well) the term =93God=94 is employed to designate a Power, a stabil= izing unity in design and purpose, which we may hope will turn to our help if, by some method of worship or propitiation we secure its specific attention to us. How can our whole world with all its differences ? =85 How can a whole Galaxy exist, and seemingly run in good order -- that is still mainly unexplored by us ? =85 How can we delve into our own psyche and mind - stil= l largely not in our control ? =85 What have we ? =85 Blind alleys, or horizo= ns of hope and encouragement to widen our range of understanding ? Then comes th= e death of the physical body. Is all lost or is there a continuance ? What is the purpose of so complex a situation? What evidence can we assemble to prove or disprove the Theosophical propositions about the nature of the Universe and our role as humans in it = ? Perhaps it is well that there is no finality and that our curiosity is left with an open field in which to grow, to ever grow ? --------------------------------------------- HOW TO STUDY THEOSOPHY =96=20 Commander Bowen quotes HPB=92s 4 main points. Since most of the quotes that we will discuss come from SD, I hope the following extracts from Robert Bowen's notes of personal teachings given by H.P.B. to private pupils during the years 1888 to 1891 on how to study SD may be of some help. "At last we have managed to get H.P.B. to put us right on the matter of the study of the S.D. Let me get it down while it is all fresh in mind.=20 Reading the S.D. page by page as one reads any other book (she says) will only end us in confusion.=20 The first thing to do, even if it takes years, is to get some grasp of the "Three Fundamental Principles" given in the Proem. Follow that up by study of the Recapitulation -- the numbered items in the Summing Up to Vol. I. (Part 1.). Then take the Preliminary Notes (Vol. II.) and the Conclusion (Vol. II.)......=20 She talked a good deal about the "Fundamental Principles."=20 She says: If one imagines that one is going to get a satisfactory picture o= f the constitution of the Universe from the S.D. one will get only confusion from its study. It is not meant to give any such final verdict on existence= , but to LEAD TOWARDS THE TRUTH. She repeated this latter expression many times.=20 It is worse than useless going to those whom we imagine to be advanced students (she said) and asking them to give us an "interpretation" of the S.D. They cannot do it.=20 If they try, all they give are cut and dried exoteric renderings which do not remotely resemble the Truth. To accept such interpretation means anchoring ourselves to fixed ideas, whereas Truth lies beyond any ideas we can formulate or express. Exoteric interpretations are all very well, and she does not condemn them s= o long as they are taken as pointers for beginners, and are not accepted by them as anything more.=20 Many persons who are in, or who will in the future be in the T.S. are of course potentially incapable of any advance beyond the range of a common exoteric conception. But there are, and will be others, and for them she sets out the following and true way of approach to the S.D.=20 Come to the S.D. (she says) without any hope of getting the final Truth of existence from it, or with any idea other than seeing how far it may lead TOWARDS the Truth. See in study a means of exercising and developing the mind never touched by other studies. Observe the following rules:=20 1. No matter what one may study in the S.D. let the mind hold fast, as the basis of its ideation to the following ideas=20 (a) The FUNDAMENTAL UNITY OF ALL EXISTENCE. This unity is a thing altogethe= r different from the common notion of unity -- as when we say that a nation o= r an army is united; or that this planet is united to that by lines of magnetic force or the like. The teaching is not that. It is that existence is ONE THING, not any collection of things linked together. Fundamentally there is ONE BEING. This Being has two aspects, positive and negative.=20 The positive is Spirit, or CONSCIOUSNESS. The negative is SUBSTANCE, the subject of consciousness.=20 This Being is the Absolute in its primary manifestation. Being absolute there is nothing outside it. It is All-Being. It is indivisible, else it would not be absolute. If a portion could be separated, that remaining coul= d not be absolute, because there would at once arise the question of COMPARISON between it and the separated part.=20 Comparison is incompatible with any idea of absoluteness. Therefore it is clear that this fundamental One Existence, or Absolute Being must be the Reality in every form there is. I said that though this was clear to me I did not think that many in the Lodges would grasp it. "Theosophy," she said, "is for those who can think, or for those who can drive themselves to think, not mental sluggards."=20 H.P.B. has grown very mild of late. "Dumskulls!" used to be her name for th= e average student.=20=20 The Atom, the Man, the God (she says) are each separately, as well as all collectively, Absolute Being in their last analysis, that is their REAL INDIVIDUALITY. It is this idea which must be held always in the background of the mind to form the basis for every conception that arises from study o= f the S.D. The moment one lets it go (and it is most easy to do so when engaged in any of the many intricate aspects of the Esoteric Philosophy) th= e idea of SEPARATION supervenes, and the study loses its value.=20 (b) The second idea to hold fast to is that THERE IS NO DEAD MATTER. Every last atom is alive. It cannot be otherwise since every atom is itself fundamentally Absolute Being. Therefore there is no such thing as "spaces" of Ether, or Akasha, or call it what you like, in which angels and elementals disport themselves like trout in water. That's the common idea. The true idea shows every atom of substance no matter of what plane to be in itself a LIFE.=20 (c) The third basic idea to be held is that Man is the MICROCOSM. As he is so, then all the Hierarchies of the Heavens exist within him. But in truth there is neither Macrocosm nor Microcosm but ONE EXISTENCE. Great and small are such only as viewed by a limited consciousness.=20 (d) Fourth and last basic idea to be held is that expressed in the Great Hermetic Axiom. It really sums up and synthesises all the others.=20 =93As is the Inner, so is the Outer; as is the Great so is the Small; as it= is above, so it is below; there is but One Life and Law; and he that worketh i= t is ONE. Nothing is Inner, nothing is Outer; nothing is Great, nothing is Small; nothing is High, nothing is Low, in the Divine Economy.=94 =20 No matter what one takes as study in the S.D. one must correlate it with those basic ideas." ---------------------------------------- Why does SPIRIT undergo the evolutionary process.=20=20 Basically it would seem so that: "IT should know Itself." Logic: SPIRIT by itself is UNCONSCIOUS - UNIVERSAL - without contrast. Evolutionary law (KARMA) provides periodically the contrast of MATTER in an evolutionary Manvantara such as we are now involved in. [ Karma: as the endless "pulsing" of unconscious Life, which is perceived by "the opened ey= e of the Dangma" (the perception of the WISE)--SD I 27 Verse 8.] SPIRIT emanates aspects of itself - "Rays, Sparks" - which appear simultaneously with "matter" of a refined and "primordial type". Also simultaneously arises the POWER TO PERCEIVE, or UNIVERSAL MIND-MAHAT. [ Primordial pure matter is also named "Mulaprakriti" and "Mahabuddhi." ] The "Rays" invested with "matter" or MAHA-BUDDHI (Wisdom derived from experience) pass as individual MONADS [Atma-Buddhi-Manas] through all the planes and spheres of manifestation and eventually find themselves as individual Men-Minds on this, the grossest, most material of the planes. The SD describes this process starting SD Vol. I, p. 152. The OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY covers this in brief in Chapters 2, 3, 4, and 14, 15, if a synopsis is desired. If one is asking for a FIRST CAUSE, [SD I 14-5 214 342 426] you will be disappointed because there is none of a "material" kind. In terms of metaphysics, HPB hints in the SD that it is the CAUSELESS CAUSE, [SD I 9-10 14-5 55 89 273 280; II 589 ] and it is indescribable in our material= , physical terms and thoughts. What then remains for us to do to un-puzzle our minds? Only the fact that we are here. The fact that we are questioning is highly significant.=20=20 In THE SECRET DOCTRINE we are given one of the most comprehensive "keys" to the great seven-fold puzzle. This 7-fold mystery stretches between the polar opposites of Spirit and Matter, and employs the Mind which is mid-way between and independent of them, to note and record all their interactions in terms of time, space and motion. In effect we are told: "Man know thyself."=20=20 Since we are also 7-fold, each one of our principles when ultimately refine= d and brought under control opens the corresponding "lock" of great nature. = =20 Man is the "Microcosm" of the "Macrocosm" and contains in himself, in miniature, every power and force that the Universe has. He has to understand these, where they come from and how they are used, but, the powe= r to employ the secret laws and posers of nature are not entrusted to him by the WISE, who hold the final "secrets," until he has become completely HARMLESS to himself and to Nature around him.=20=20 The practice of "brotherhood" is the opening aspect of the discipline that leads to individual "success" and to ultimate Wisdom (or the practice of benevolence as a force that is employed only for the good of others). By the fact that in any one evolutionary period a mass of minds independently and cooperatively achieve the highest illumination into the nature of SPIRIT and the UNIVERSE, to that extent SPIRIT GETS TO KNOW ITSELF. It becomes progressively SELF-CONSCIOUS. Thus the human stage is a= n essential component of the evolutionary process and those=20 Men-minds that become successful are entrusted with the guidance of various aspects of future evolutionary schemes and the assisting of still more "minds" to become universally enlightened. Spirit may be said to get to "know itself" by the success of Minds who are wisely benevolent. As the process is continuous and eternal, evolution and progress towards spirituality (with the memory of every Egoic, individual experience in all departments of Nature stored in Akasa-- the BUDDHI-wisdom -- aspect of NATURE) the SPIRITUAL PERSON, that we are fundamentally, becomes ONE WITH THE UNIVERSAL SPIRIT.=20=20 But this merging does not annihilate or disintegrate the Individual, for that continues as a conscious unit on a self-assumed mission of assistance, compassion and mercy described in the VOICE OF THE SILENCE in the last page= s of the book (pp. 76-79 and the all-important footnotes there). We as humans are half-way through this vas= t process and work. [ HPB in her article ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISISHTADWAITA says: "I maintain as an occultist, on the authority of the Secret Doctrine Parabrahm, man's spirit which not individual per se, yet preserves its distinct individuality in Paranirvana owing to the accumulation in it of the aggregates, or "skandhas" that have survived afte= r each death, from the highest faculties of the Manas.=20=20 The most spiritual--i.e., the highest and divinest aspirations of every personality follow "Buddhi" and the Seventh Principle into Devachan ("Swarga") after the death of each personality along the line of rebirths, and become part and parcel of the "Monad." [HPB Articles III, p. 265.] -------------------------------------------------- If the "ALL" is so grand and all knowing (omnipotent and omnipresent, etc...), then why does it need to form itself into a dense, fleshly creature like ourselves to evolve? It seems to me that to do so would be "un-evolving" itself (if such a word exists). Now I know that someone her= e is going to say, "Well, by becoming human, the "All" can experience many things on this plane, thus, adding to Its bank of knowledge." BUT, (I say),"Why??? If, It is already all-knowing???" What a grand question. In fact, the greatest philosophers of all history have asked over and over the question as to why God joined soul and body together - which is a variant of your question, isn't it? HPB has written that the mystery of the solar logos is the greatest mystery and the most precious in all of occultism. Bailey, though I am a declared dissident with respect to much of what she wrote - has said that the purpos= e of the solar logos is a redemptive one, that is, that our own God, the highest God we can conceive purpose for, was born - as in the Bible story about Christ - to save mankind with his great love and benedictions. Apparently our solar system and the planets therein have experienced great moral and spiritual failures in the past. It was not only in Atlantis that men turned to wickedness, sorcery and greed, black magic and so on, but in previously solar systems, resulting in great dead and decaying substance in the cosmos with human prisoners within them, comatose or in pain. Then along comes the redeeming heart of the Sun, who as Christ did, made the stupendous sacrifice to give us life and opportunity to work out way back home to paradise again. So if you look at the billions of billions of billions of suns and the equivalent numbers of humanities, both evolved and perfected and unevolved in the vast kosmic space we see each night in the skies, it is only ONE portion, our own solar system that required its God to incarnate through th= e human kingdom. Elsewhere the arrangement is not so much requiring of redemption as ours. Mankind is the redeemer, the great savior who must awaken to his true ancient agenda - and who seemingly has temporarily lost his way. ----------------------------------------------------------- Universal Foundation: THE ABSOLUTE Manifestation re begins under the unfinished Karma of the previous manifestation. "The Secret Doctrine establishes three fundamental propositions: -- (a) An Omnipresent, Eternal, Boundless, and Immutable Principle on which al= l speculation is impossible, since it transcends the power of human conceptio= n and could only be dwarfed by any human expression or similitude. It is beyond the range and reach of thought - in the words of Mandukya, 'unthinkable and unspeakable.'" (from The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky, vol I page 14.) That "principle" is usually referred to as the "Absolute" in Theosophical discussion. Note there are other quotations in the SD that shed additional light on the Absolute. Perhaps I will include some of them later in the week - but I do not want to distract you from this quote. It is "famous" for students of the SD. The context of that quote is also quite important but not given here. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D SYMBOLS Circle, Circle and Dot. The CIRCLE can be taken two ways, as I understand it: 1. as representative of the UNMANIFESTED, attributeless and indescribable ALL. 2. The Circle can also represent the Universe as an "idea" that emanates from the ABSOLUTENESS and thus is indicative of the first differentiation. Circle is a limitation in the LIMITLESS (which as I understand it in the SD, is the ABSOLUTE) It is devoid of all attributes (SD I 214 420 II 34 384fn}. But, it is ALL POTENTIAL. It cannot=20 be =93projected=94 unless an earlier Universe had existed. This tends=20 to show that Karma (law) is a necessary and included part of the ALL.=20=20 Circle, actually, is a triple glyph: 1. SPACE UNLIMITED outside of it. An unlimited area with no boundaries or qualities. 2. Circle line itself. Apparently drawn by ETERNAL KARMA (SD I 27 - Verse 8) or that which is ALWAYS present as a philosophical necessity. In Non-manifestation it represents the "past" of all being previously IN MANIFESTATION, and due to eventually return. 3. Space limited inside the circumference that is drawn (Circle represents a SPHERE) . This represents the first flutter of a new Manifestation to be reborn out of the old impulses and forces left as Karmic germs. In the SD it might help to draw the information on the following pages together: SD I 1 4-5 11 65 99 113-4 134fn 239 333 359 II 553 573 589 621 You will see in the first pages of SD vol. I that HPB gives No SYMBOL for the ABSOLUTE -- she uses many words indicating that it is not to be limited. At the bottom of p. 4 are the first series of symbols.=20=20 On p. 11 is the extract from the OCCULT CATECHISM. ---------------------------- "What is it that ever is?" "Space, the eternal Anupadaka."* "What is it tha= t ever was?" "The Germ in the Root." "What is it that is ever coming and going?" "The Great Breath." "Then, there are three Eternals?" "No, the thre= e are one. That which ever is, is one, that which ever was is one, that which is ever being and becoming is also one: and this is Space."=20 "Explain, oh Lanoo (disciple)." =97 "The One is an unbroken Circle (ring) with no circumference, for it is nowhere and everywhere; the One is the boundless plane of the Circle, manifesting a diameter only during the manvantaric periods; the One is the indivisible point found nowhere, perceived everywhere during those periods; it is the Vertical and the Horizontal, the Father and the Mother, the summi= t and base of the Father, the two extremities of the Mother, reaching in reality nowhere, for the One is the Ring as also the rings that are within that Ring. Light in darkness and darkness in light: the 'Breath which is eternal.' It proceeds from without inwardly, when it is everywhere, and fro= m within outwardly, when it is nowhere =97 (i.e., maya, one of the centres ).= It expands and contracts (exhalation and inhalation). When it expands the mother diffuses and scatters; when it contracts, the mother draws back and ingathers. This produces the periods of Evolution and Dissolution, Manwantara and Pralaya. The Germ is invisible and fiery; the Root (the plan= e of the circle) is cool; but during Evolution and Manwantara her garment is cold and radiant. Hot Breath is the Father who devours the progeny of the many-faced Element (heterogeneous); and leaves the single-faced ones (homogeneous). Cool Breath is the Mother, who conceives, forms, brings forth, and receives them back into her bosom, to reform them at the Dawn (o= f the Day of Brahma, or Manvantara). . . . "=20 [S D I, p. II ] --------------------------- Our minds in the here and now, surrounded by matter, find it most difficult to think of that which is NOT material or limited in terms of time, space and motion.=20=20 Pp. 14-19 give the "3 fundamentals." Those are found repeated throughout=20 later pages in one way or another. SD vol. 1 up to p. 300 gives a survey o= f manifestation starting with the most spiritual levels and gradually devolving into "matter." MATTER at that beginning point is "primordial matter." And if we were to perceive it, we might think of it as "spirit" in contrast with the "gross matter" we use every day here and now. Those first 300 pages are full of the most valuable explanations (see for instance Mr. Judge's HIDDEN HINTS IN THE SECRET DOCTRINE, which is a useful guide and commentary), we have to grasp and keep the information gained from those 300 pages in mind when reading the rest of the book. In SD I 51 she states positively that the "finite" cannot conceive of the INFINITE, and on p. 56 she says the reverse the INFINITY cannot know the "finite." And yet we dare as mind-being to think about this ABSOLUTENESS as a logical necessity from which emanates all the limitations of a functioning Universe. Is this not because we are in our innermost core, (as are all other beings) One with that ABSOLUTENESS ? This is the one fact that makes of each of us MONADS and Eternal Pilgrims. The DOT within the CIRCLE would indicate the Germ, the Seed the "first differentiation". It also stands for the imperishable MONAD encased in physical matter. If you look at a graphic representation of the Pythagorean TRIANGLE embodying the ten dots in 4 lines, then the ABSOLUTENESS would be an invisible ( Circle ? ) above the topmost dot. Or in another way, as IT is non-manifest, it would be an invisible CIRCLE that we create in our mind's eye, that includes all the ten dots which signify manifestation in all its many details. --------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Dallas From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Dec 02 23:37:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64384 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2004 07:37:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2004 07:37:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d22.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.208) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2004 07:37:34 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id j.1c2.21403d11 (3964) for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 02:37:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1c2.21403d11.2ee171b2@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 02:37:22 EST To: study@blavatsky.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.144.208 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: [bn-study] Chapter 2, page 15 - Akasha and the Astral Light X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 As an exercise in testing the correlation's of a post modern approach to scientific reasoning with the metaphysics of theosophy as presented in the Secret Doctrine and discussed here -- as well as opening the door to further comments and questions that might add to our understanding of these ideas and concepts -- I've inserted my comments based on the theory of Astro Biological Coenergetics (ABC) within the commentary below. In a message dated 11/30/04 8:22:04 PM, estela3@blavatsky.net writes: >Chapter 2, page 15 > >7. Akasha and the Astral Light > > Here there is introduced a teaching that goes far beyond anything known >to today's sciences. Although not easy to grasp at first, it will be found >to throw much light on areas of experiences at present little understood >even by psychology, for example, the mystical and psychic. >It has been stated (in paragraph 4 above), that there is no such thing >as empty space in the universe. Esoteric Science teaches that the entire >cosmos is pervaded by Akasha, primordial substance, or rather the noumenon >- the non-sensuous reality - beyond substance. In the Theosophical >Glossary, Akasha (from a Sanskrit word meaning 'brilliant" or "luminous") >is described as "the subtle, supersensuous spiritual essence which pervades >all space." This primordial substance differentiates into all the forms of >matter, those of the invisible as of the visible regions of the universe. >Hence the definition of Akasha as "the Universal Soul" ...from which all >that exists is born by separation or differentiation. It is the cause of >existence; it fills all the infinite Space." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [LM] This "spiritual essence" or "primordial substance" is the "abstract motion" that surrounds the primal zero-point "emptiness" -- which is reflected everywhere -- and is the center of all infinite Space, whether manifest or non manifest, subtle or gross... (Although, each field of consciousness or composite "being" in the universe has it own individual zero-point center, along with its own "abstract motion" or "spinergy," constituting its source of "life" energy.) This abstract motion or the "angular momentum" of pure "Spin" (of the zero-point, rapidly turning or cycling around itself at infinite velocities on an infinite number of axes), is the primal Force ("Spinergy") -- that is the root of all manifest energies on all planes or fields of consciousness. Since, this infinite spin can carry information encoded as holographic interference patterns in its velocities as well as its radial pulsation's (or ZP spins on perpedicular axes) --it is the root of the Akasha that carries the entire memory of all prior Manvantara experiences, as well as the construction plans or "genetic code" of the entire Cosmos, as well as all the potential beings in it. One basic premise is that -- since Absolute Space must be infinitely divisible -- so must be the "spinergy" that surrounds every infinite zero-point that, paradoxically (from a physical or linear-space-time point of view) must all be in the same place, or spatial location, prior to manifestation. That is, before the emanation of the Cosmos, the birth of any Quasar, or prior to the Big bang (that Science wrongly assumes was the beginning of this physical universe alone). When the primal or noumenal "spinergy" first awakens to come into phenomenal "existence," it emanates, at near infinite frequency/energy, the dual, positive and negative ray (moving linearly in opposite directions, in a 3 cycle spiral vortex (Mobius-like) path which weaves (since the point is also spinning in a perpendicular direction to the original emanation) the first Cosmic Monad consisting of three cyclic fields (two inner fields within a surrounding field, like bubbles within a bubble) -- which represents the first spiritual root of all subsequent Monads. The parallel dual rays (although spiraling like the DNA molecule) that weaves the outer circumferences of these fields, are probably analogous to what Science (in current M-theory) calls "Superstrings." It is also postulated that, since the dual ray is both positive and negative (in direction of propagation) they could be the roots of what in current science is spoken of as "Light Matter" and "Dark Matter." However, another hypothetical possibility is that the twin spiraling rays carry -- in their individual vibrations (whose peaks and valleys could be analogous to the "strings" of current physics) that meet between them (like the ladders of bases in between the DNA spiral strands) --the entire "construction" code of Cosmogenesis. It only remains for the first intelligent beings to properly place these constructions in their rightful places... (Something, science still hasn't entirely figured out with respect to the human body and its varying proteins that go to different places in the body -- since they can't comprehend how intelligence could operate at the cellular levels, and have no understanding of the intelligent coenergetic** relationship between the coadunate Astral Body and the Physical Body.) **Coenergetic, referring to the inductive resonance between the energy vibrational patterns of one higher order field that induce an analogous pattern in the adjacent lower order field -- much like striking a G-string of a violin induces a similar vibration in the G-string of a nearby bass fiddle, along with all its overtones. To visualize how these fields initially form the primal Monad and subsequently involve fractally -- i.e., one divides into two to form three, in an infinite series --starting from "chaos" to ultimate octaval "order" (after three iterations or "logos" ) -- and continuing inward, ad infinitum, see: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/invlutionflddiagnotate.gif http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Invlutionfldmirror2.gif Incidentally, since all the space-time fields that emanate from the "spinergy" are joined together with their "Superstrings" (or woven rays of energy that make up the circumferences of the fields) in the form of "Gordian knots," so to speak -- it could take quite a twist of mind to follow the Mobius-like twists of fields with fields within fields, etc. ... So, we shouldn't be discouraged if it takes much long and arduous meditative practice to arrive at the clear state of its comprehension or visualization (that Patanjali implies is a necessary requirement prior to enlightenment :-) Could that be why HPB placed so much emphasis on understanding the metaphysics of theosophy and its scientific correlation's? What good is the Heart Doctrine in helping and teaching others on the path and fulfilling the plan of universal evolution, without a complete and effective understanding or how the Macrocosm and the microcosm actually work and interrelate with each other? The basis of all the siddhis (psychic powers), including the powers of will and self healing, rests on this comprehension. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >The lowest region of Akasha, immediately above the gross physical plane, >is termed the Astral Light. It is "the invisible region that surrounds our >globe" and everything in it, and corresponds to the subtle vehicle or >"double" in man, the Linga-sharira. In it is impressed indelibly everything >that takes place in the physical, psychical, and mental realms. It is thus >the storehouse of memory, both in the cosmos and in mankind. >"Akasha - the subtle supersensuous spiritual essence which pervades all >space." These last few weeks there has been much discussion on God, and >the nature of divinity. As theosophists, we believe that there is something >more than a God. And we identify this something as the Absolute, yet we >give it no attributes, except to say what it is not and what it is not >practically covers everything. Yet, we are left struggling to come to terms >with this something, through words and concepts... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ As ABC theory sees it, this subtle "Astral light," is considered the analogous "light" range of the energy-frequency spectrum of each higher field that is analogous and corresponds to the "Sidereal light" of the gross physical universe. Thus the inner light we experience is not the Sidereal light we detect with our physical eyes, but is actually the "Astral light" we see only through our mind's eye (as a hologram in the Astral Mind field reconstructed by a coherent ray of Astral light projected from the "spinergy" surrounding our zero-point center of visual perception located in the Pineal area) -- whether awake or in our dreams -- since the Sidereal light never gets past the retinas of our physical eyes. When we raise our consciousness to the higher fields of Buddhi and Atma, we can experience (see, feel, etc.) the higher order frequencies of Astral light on those planes. Such experiences are purely subjective and we can only explain them to others indirectly as one sort of feeling of ecstasy or another, or by metaphorical analogies and correspondences -- e.g., "Smells like a rose" or "Tastes like honey," etc., etc. However, we can never explain any of this "scientifically" in objective or empirical terms -- since there is no way, using our instruments on the physical plane, that we can measure these higher frequency orders -- but can only "experience" them subjectively. The same can be said for the concept of the infinite Absolute -- which is ineffable and beyond the comprehension of the finite mind -- thus, divine, in an of itself. All this clears up when we consider that the zero-point at the center of origin of each monadic field is the source of all conscious experience or awareness. Therefore, we are each, in our own individual Monad's zero-point of origin, an individual "spark" at the center of the highest Self -- which is, in essence, the latent consciousness of the Absolute. This consciousness only becomes "experiential," as an individual Self (which we can call "God consciousness") at the zero-center of the primal Monad of the Cosmos and any Galactic or Solar System in it, down to each individual human being. Subsequently, as this primal Monad goes through its 14 initial involution's, the consciousness of the Dhyan Chohans awaken in successive hierarchical order until the primordial physical Universe appears. Of course, in our measure of time, all this occurs simultaneously -- since each successive field has a time constant (or "ultimate division of time") consistent with its energy-frequency order -- which extends from near infinite on the highest plane to the finite spectrum of the lowest physical plane. Note that "plane" is used, theosophically -- since all phenomena, which is fundamentally "electrical" in nature, occurs on the circumferential surface of each of the globular "fields" of consciousness. Science confirms this, as Einstein showed us -- since he proved that this infinite "surface" of space is flat in the short view but also curved in the long view. From a physical point of view, the metaphorical analogy is that; Space can be imagined as an immense blanket woven of primal lines (or rays or Superstrings) of "Primal Force," and that galaxies are wrinkles in the blanket -- with stars wrinkles in the galactic wrinkles, and planets wrinkles in the star wrinkles, ad infinitum. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > One evening, as I struggled to get a handle on this idea of an Absolute, >I wandered out into the garden. It was late fall, just like it is now and >the sky was crystal clear and slightly blue, the moon providing a soft >light. I sat down and looked up at the sky taking in the stars. Then with >my mind I pictured the universe as it would be beyond our atmosphere, and >with my mind I traveled farther out taking in the nebulas and the galaxies >that spread out across the universe. Like Hubble I tried with my mind to >reach the very ends of the universe and go beyond. In that still night, >I felt the energy that surrounds us and fills us with it vibrancy, I heard >the low hum that one hears in the silence, and slowly I sensed another >reaching back. And I knew it could not be contained in words and concepts, >even in an idea. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Yes, even science cannot explain the "experience" of consciousness -- which must remain forever that which we can only feel and know inside ourselves, by ourselves. Your expressions and impressions described so poetically above, I'm afraid, is the closest any of us can ever come to picturing such transcendental experiences to others. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >Why does Theosophy not bother to define the Absolute? Should we bother >to define what is not? Is Consciousness the same as the Absolute, or are we >once again trying to put terms to a term-less something? >Is the Akasha the first manifestation of the Absolute? >Is there a difference between the linga-sharira and the aura? >Why does science not recognize this Akasha, and yet recognize that space >is not empty? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Perhaps, the above outline of how scientific thinking can be merged with theosophy makes all this a little clearer. Even today, science with its Superstring/M-brane theories, postulating "11 dimensions" of Space (7 hyperspace, 3 physical, plus time), is coming closer and closer to the theosophical metaphysics -- which can be described philosophically, as did HPB (using theosophical jargon that possibly only a studied theosophist with a scientific background along with a fair knowledge of Sanskrit could understand thoroughly) -- and, ultimately, merged it with science... (As further clarified by the ABC theoretical interpretation which bridges theosophical metaphysics with the leading edges of postmodern science.) See: http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics -- along with my previous letters on ABC in this and other online forums. The real problem with reductive Science as practiced today, is that they cannot get a handle on consciousness and its relationship to matter, or even the connections between mind and brain. They call it the "hard problem" of consciousness and the "binding problem" of mind to brain. Until they solve these two conundrums, there can never be a scientific understanding of the true nature of both subjective and objective reality. On the substantial or energetic side, "M-theory" is getting very close to the theosophical metaphysics that speaks of multidimensional enfolded fields -- which science labels ZPE or "zero-point energies"... But, on the consciousness side, they are lost until they can fit perceptive awareness and will or intent into their equations. In any event, neither theosophy, ABC, nor Superstring/M-brane theory -- no matter how close they get to a "Unified Field Theory of Everything" -- can ever explain the nature of the Absolute (the rootless root of all)... That is forever beyond the comprehension of all manifest consciousness -- i.e., beyond even the ubiquitous "zero-point" itself (the root of both our awareness and our will), or its "spinergy" (the root of all substantial matter-energies) ... Yet, both of which forever remains in close intimacy with that forever unknown Absolute (pre-being or "Beness") Principle upon which everything in the Cosmos or in our phenomenal universe rests, and has their being in. Lenny >Estela From samblo@cs.com Fri Dec 03 03:16:47 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20005 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2004 11:16:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2004 11:16:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2004 11:16:47 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1e4.2f921603 (4446) for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 06:16:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1e4.2f921603.2ee1a51b@cs.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 06:16:43 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.38 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World re teachings/Masters today and in ancient Egypt, South Americ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Mauri, Thanks for your comments. In the UFO case years ago Viracocha was referred to as "Ticci Viracocha" having the same tradition you relate from Graham Handcock's book. The Nasca Culture was recent comparatively, A.D., Maria Reich spent most of her life in situ documenting the Nasca lines and figures which are of a distinctly different type than the more recent Crop Circles. Prof. Arthuro Posnansky catalogued the Tiahuanaco remains, spending over 20 years in situ in the effort. Much of the remains of the Tiahuanaco culture were buried in a flood plain from the deluge you cited. Posnansky dated Tiahuanaco at 15,538 Years B.C. that being the "Middle Period" of the Tiahuanaco Culture. Posnanskys great work in Quatro volumes is "Tiahuanaco -- Cradle of American Man" published by the Government of Bolivia. In those volumes there is a glyph of a "European Wizard" with a High conical hat, sporting what appears to be a "Scottish Kilt," it is an enigma. The Spanish destroyed many of the priceless 18 foot high Monolithic Statues which were covered top to bottom in glyphs which I was told many years ago described the various Disciplines and scientific knowledge such as Astronomy. One of the best resources I know of on Nasca and it's lines is published by: KUNSTRAUM MUNCHEN in collaboration with Maria Reich 1974, titled "Peruvian Ground Drawings." One mythology found in the modern UFO culture in America is that some believe that it is at the Nasca Plain that the "Condor Fleet" is stored beneath the ground under the symbolic figures awaiting an appointed time for their reappearance. In one of his "abductions" the experiencer I was involved with was taken before dawn to Nasca and set down in his jockey shorts on the regenerative leg of the "Spider" figure at Nasca and given instruction to follow relating to it. At the North end of Nasca there is a river named "Rio Ingenio" which means River of the Supermind or Genius. Ticci Viracocha walked "on the foam of the Ocean," Krishna churned and produced the Foam of the Ocean also, Jesus was alleged to have walked upon the waters. Tulku's are called Sky Walkers. Hmmm. BTW, I haven't read any of Graham Handcock's books, yet. John From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Dec 03 05:22:38 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51895 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2004 13:22:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2004 13:22:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yahoogroups.com) (80.202.237.234) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2004 13:22:35 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:23:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 80.202.237.234 From: stevestubbs@yahoo.com Subject: thanks! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your details. +++ Attachment: No Virus found +++ Panda AntiVirus - www.pandasoftware.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From clarity12.1@juno.com Fri Dec 03 10:50:03 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: clarity12.1@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40092 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2004 18:50:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2004 18:50:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com) (64.136.20.164) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2004 18:50:03 -0000 Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail22.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.162]) by smtpout03.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABA5BPLFA66H8XJ for (sender ); Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:49:41 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: 4ohJS0CGC59/Kp5GWNMAw5dioYqCpGgvJL60iRyOuf1hxv9oIzm+aA== Received: (from clarity12.1@juno.com) by webmail22.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KDXS9PHE; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 10:48:40 PST Received: from [68.44.16.38] by webmail22.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:47:46 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:47:46 GMT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041203.104840.17152.41751@webmail22.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 19:9:1296263906 X-MAIL-INFO:498b8a4a4fc78b17936e73b75fc3f393436b270f47e78e9e7a1be7fe5703270f7b6eeb5707d7022f2a7b3e3efe2be3232b036703025a4e9a5a43a7afc3731773f38b0b6a8b1ea38b1e270b5f07dbdb33aa632aaa5ebe5ef7b71ad7b7da3a0b67470e4702bf3e2fbf1fa7bf1f3b3e X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.136.20.164 From: "Regina St Clare" X-Originating-IP: [68.44.16.38] Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Review by Katinka Hesselink of "The Judge Case" bo ok by Ernest E. Pelletier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=178968717 X-Yahoo-Profile: stclareregina Autocracy and the TS I was told when I joined and immediately became a president of a Lodge, that the TS was an autocracy. It has proved to be just that. Uphappily, Regina -- "Perry Coles" wrote: Thanks Daniel and Katinka This is a good article.... It's interesting how this concept of a "successor" is an issue of great debate in the various Theosophical Societies. A similar problem is in the various Radhasoami groups who all argue over "successor –ship". While in the Radhasoami's I can understand why there is an issue over this due to their belief in need for a "perfect Master" to guide the initiates. In Theosophy however there is no such concept as each student must walk his or her own path. Is this need for "successors" based in the need for a rescuer or perhaps a hangover from the old hierarchical mindset and "divine Kings and Queens" being crowned with power from on high or perhaps HPB's highly "magnetised" Divine Ring of power. Maybe both Judge and Besant where still of this ilk. De Purucker's writings also express this authoritarian / hierarchical type of mindset of course it goes without saying CWL was a complete shocker when it came to pronouncements and his belief in superiority of the ruling classes. It's interesting that the society was set up on a democratic system rather than an autocracy or some kind of theosophical monarchy with "successors". It's a shame that the society fell into the trap of guru following and this nonsense idea of successor-ship and divine oracles, rather than implementing the principles of democracy on which the society was established. Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > > Recently the following book was published: > > The Judge Case: A Conspiracy Which > Ruined the Theosophical Cause > by Ernest E. Pelletier > > Ordering information can be found at: > > http://www.theosophycanada.com/ets_judge_case.pdf > > Katinka Hesselink, editor of Lucifer7, has > now written and published an informative review of > this book in the latest December 2004 > issue of Lucifer7. See: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lucifer7/message/17 > > I have reprinted the review in an easier format > to print at: > > http://blavatskyarchives.com/judgecasereviewbykatinka.htm > > Katinka also compiled a more complete table of contents > for the book under review. I have also created a pdf version > of this more complete table that will be easier to read > and print out at: > > http://blavatskyarchives.com/wqjcasetableofcontents.pdf > > I am hoping that Ernest Pelletier will respond to Katinka's > review on this Theos-Talk forum which is open to the public > and is also indexed by Google. > > Later I plan to add a few comments of my own on "The Judge > Case" book and also on Katinka's review. > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER > http://hpb.cc Yahoo! Groups Links ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Dec 03 12:52:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35083 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2004 20:52:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2004 20:52:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2004 20:52:33 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CaKPo-00088g-Bt for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:52:32 -0500 Message-ID: <41B0D216.4020703@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:52:38 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041203.104840.17152.41751@webmail22.nyc.untd.com> In-Reply-To: <20041203.104840.17152.41751@webmail22.nyc.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba5113af02d9f1ea36e1a8a798bd769515bca2f000fc72cd8d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Review by Katinka Hesselink of "The Judge Case" bo ok by Ernest E. Pelletier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Regina St Clare wrote: > I was told when I joined and immediately became a president of a > Lodge, that the TS was an autocracy. > > It has proved to be just that. As one who is vaguely (emphasis on the word, "vaguely") familiar with your situation, I'd be interested if you can elaborate. Bart From dharao4@yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 03 13:32:13 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dharao4@yahoo.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53100 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2004 21:32:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2004 21:32:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web86902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) (217.12.13.54) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2004 21:32:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 39900 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Dec 2004 21:32:04 -0000 Message-ID: <20041203213204.39898.qmail@web86902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Received: from [80.229.36.141] by web86902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 21:32:04 GMT Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 21:32:04 +0000 (GMT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 217.12.13.54 From: robert searle Subject: The Question of Power. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=174372458 X-Yahoo-Profile: dharao4 Dear All, The problem of power and who takes it is not something limited to the errings of certain careerist Theosophists but can also be found in gurudom....and indeed, in many other walks of life. I was a member of the TS in the 1980s and hope to rejoin for research reasons as the library at the London Centre is always useful. However, I met someone who may be still alive, and her name was Miss Storey if I recall rightly. She had what was termed a gammey leg but what struck me most was her evident interest in climbing up the Theosophical promotion ladder. In other words, she had a thirst for "power". This I found to be somewhat odd as TS is meant to be interested in the spiritual. Infact, one reason why I left it was because I found the members cold, and unfriendly. However, if I went to a Radhasoami Satsang meeting the whole room would be saturated with the pure vibrant energies of love which would lift my conciousness upwards. At the TS I felt I had entered a funeral parlour, or a mausoleum which is a shame. Otherwise, I have great respect for the writings of the Theosophists notably ofcourse Blavatsky, and Leadbeater. I assume Leslie Price still plays at active part in the TS. What fascinated me about him was his sharp mind, and alert attention. ___________________________________________________________ Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From ringding777@t-online.de Sat Dec 04 01:59:52 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding777@t-online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26335 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2004 09:59:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2004 09:59:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout04.sul.t-online.com) (194.25.134.18) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Dec 2004 09:59:52 -0000 Received: from fwd08.aul.t-online.de by mailout04.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CaWhj-00089u-03; Sat, 04 Dec 2004 10:59:51 +0100 Received: from captainfb78633 (ZezbP4ZHYe9CAh7oVGPh0+q+toKtPvQbv8vr-As40wd1htY4-GFesK@[217.86.143.183]) by fwd08.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CaWhf-2CC9qa0; Sat, 4 Dec 2004 10:59:47 +0100 Message-ID: <006301c4d9e8$530edea0$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> To: References: <20041203.104840.17152.41751@webmail22.nyc.untd.com> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 11:02:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ID: ZezbP4ZHYe9CAh7oVGPh0+q+toKtPvQbv8vr-As40wd1htY4-GFesK X-TOI-MSGID: b3da9653-ee68-4c92-9b3b-718e24ed8641 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 194.25.134.18 X-eGroups-From: ringding777@t-online.de (Frank Reitemeyer) From: ringding777@t-online.de Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Review by Katinka Hesselink of "The Judge Case" book by Ernest E. Pelletier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=190924709 X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Regina, to understand better what you mean: Of which so-called TS do you speak? And do you refer to an autocracy of humans or an autocracy of super humans? Thanks Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Regina St Clare" To: Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 7:47 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Review by Katinka Hesselink of "The Judge Case" book by Ernest E. Pelletier Autocracy and the TS I was told when I joined and immediately became a president of a Lodge, that the TS was an autocracy. It has proved to be just that. Uphappily, Regina From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 04 04:15:09 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17678 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2004 12:15:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2004 12:15:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Dec 2004 12:15:08 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.79] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CaYoM-0008WT-7e; Sat, 04 Dec 2004 07:15:00 -0500 To: Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 04:14:25 -0800 Message-ID: <001001c4d9fa$d957d540$4fdeb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec791f58e8fb383a5ff17938795e60880d44350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.222.79 Subject: RE: [bn-study] Love X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Cassilva Questions=20=20=20 Dec 3 2004 Dear Friends: 1 Questions C First of all lets define IMAGINATION.=20 C Lower Imagination: the mind will construct an image (subjective) as if it were a tangible thing. Imagination connected with fancy or desire. The desire and the image and the mind are all mixed together, and the result, instead of being a training of the image making power, is to bring on a decay of that power and results only in a continual flying to the image of the thing desired.=20=20 C Higher Imagination: Imagination under control (or your word, manipulation) of the will has to be able to make a picture of anything at any time, and if this power has not been trained the possession of other sorts of knowledge will not enable one to perform certain classes of occult phenomenon. = =20 C The imagination makes a picture of each word (or thing) of each letter of every line in every letter and having made that picture it is held there by the will and the imagination acting together for such a length of time as is needed to permit the carbons or other substances to be strained down through this matrix and appear in another location. Sending messages by words which the receiver is to hear is done by making an image of the person who is the recipient is to be made and held in place - you have to become a camera= . ----------------------------------------------- DTB=09=20=20 =93Imagination. In Occultism this is not to be confused with fancy, as it i= s one of the plastic powers of the higher Soul, and is the memory of the preceding incarnations, which, however disfigured by the lower Manas, yet rests always on a ground of truth.=94 T. Glos 152 >From J.V. - "There are two ways to ascend and descend, the direct and indirect." Tea Table, Oct. Path. (I) What are these ways? Answer - The thistle down is blown hither and thither with every breath of wind: The arrow speeds straight to the mark from the powerful bow= . The indirect way is that of the thistle down; the Astral going out when the body is asleep, does so in a diffused condition - a passive state - with no adequate force to control it or master unseen forces. It floats at the merc= y of every current in the Astral, gleaning here and there as a butterfly but taking the good and bad indiscriminately. It may reach high spheres, but is more likely to remain in those nearest to the physical. This way is travelled by all when asleep, and there dreams are made. It is the passive state where desire is the ruler, and sometimes travelled in the waking conscious state, but is uncontrollable and unreliable. The direct way is that of the arrow from the bow. The Astral speeds directl= y to the sphere which holds the knowledge it is to receive. It does so in obedience to an irresistible force - the Will: Will in accordance with divine law. It is concrete going and returning in obedience to this force, bringing little with it from intermediate spheres other than that for which it is seeking. This occurs in dreamless slumber and the knowledge acquired is not communicated in a dream. This way is travelled in the conscious stat= e for it is the way of the student of the Occult. Unless the man's thought an= d motive are pure, he is incapable of using the true will, and his Astral goe= s where other wills or forces drive it. It pauses when other forces interfere - learns from the place it happens to be in, and brings back a horrible jumble sometimes. (2) Where do these ways lead? Ans One way leads to Theosophia - Illumination - when traveled awake or asleep. The other to consideration of self - ordinary living with its erroneous conceptions - as an Occult way, to love of phenomena and spiritism. They lead to spheres within the astral, for the astral body passes not beyond astral limits. Only when the soul is freed from the astral and material bodies does it pass to higher spheres. These ways also lead to planets, stars, and other worlds, for all these may be within the astral of this globe. >From M.J.G. - Whence come the visions seen just before dropping to sleep?= =20 A They are uncontrollable - sometimes unpleasant, and have increased since childhood, and since beginning the study of Occultism. Answer - When we enter that condition called sleep, we open wide the doors and windows of the body or this house we live in, and the soul goes forth a= s a bird freed from its cage. In partial unconsciousness or falling into sleep, the body has, to a great extent, ceased to act, but the brain is still sensitive or receptive to the pictures or impressions of the Astral. Of the lower principles the Astral is the last to cease action either in sleep or death. The brain is its instrument. In the partial somnolent condition, the pictures of the Astral are conveyed to the brain; through that the outer man realizes and beholds the visions. If he were fully aslee= p these visions would be dreams. Precisely, as dreams, they may be either pleasant or the reverse. Like dreams they are uncontrollable by the ordinar= y every day mortal. The Occultist being master of himself beholds only that which he desires, either in vision, or dream, or neither. As one makes himself more sensitive to impressions from the Astral when and after he begins the study of Occultism, visions and dreams will increase in frequenc= y for a time. >From J.C.V. - What is true Will? Is it a faculty of the soul? How is it one with the Divine Will and how may we make our will at one with the Divine? Is it something which now we know not, or may we perceive its germ in our own Will, or is it an instinctive movement of the soul? Answer - (I) The will as known to man is that force which he exerts for the accomplishment of his aims - he uses it blindly and ignorantly - an= d self is always the one for which he uses it. It is used as a brute force. A= s ordinarily used it has little tendency to lift the personality farther than the attainment of material results. It has for its source, the lower elements of the soul. The true will is a concentrated force working steadil= y yet gently, dominating both soul and person, having its source in the spiri= t and highest elements of the soul. It is never used for the gratification of self, is inspired by the highest of motives, is never interposed to violate a law, but works in harmony with the unseen as well as the seen. It is manifested through the human will for things visible. (2) It is more that a faculty of the soul, for it is the soul at work. The spirit is unmanifest except through the soul. The soul manifesting the spirit is the true will. The human will is the lowest form of this manifestation. (3) As the true will is the manifestation of the spirit through the soul, i= t must be at one with the divine, inasmuch as the spirit is the divine in man= . It is the God in man, a portion of the all-pervading. Asserting itself through the soul, the true will is brought forth and in truth we say, "It i= s the will of God." We may make our finite wills at one with the divine by elevating our aim, using it for good or in the search for God, in striving to find how to use it in harmony with the laws of God. By proper use in the right direction the human will becomes purified, elevated, and being exerte= d only in conformity with our highest ideal, eventually becomes at one with the highest in man. In our ordinary material state we know only the human will. Through the human will we reach the divine will. We become aware of the true will through the ordinary will just as we become aware of the soul through the body. It is not instinctive of the soul. The soul is father of the human will - the spirit is father of the true will. >From E.L.T. - "A great deal depends on purity of thought and motive," Oct. Path, p. 220. Please explain what should be the actuating motive in developing psychic capacities. Answer - The desire to find God, the desire to know one's self, our possibilities and capabilities, that we may be of true use to the world, these are the motives. The thought should be unselfish, undisturbed by material affairs - free from wonder-seeking curiosity, concentrated, and in entire accord with the motive, the search for God. ANS TO Q -- W Q J ------------------------------------------- C KARMA: Karma is not a doctrine of an eye for an eye. It is a doctrine of learning. If you think, act, or desire harm or happiness towards others, it is returned to you. If you harm someone, then to understand the harm yo= u caused you need to experience it for yourself. In that way you, are knowledgeable, and if you are smart, and don=92t want to feel that pain again, you will learn from the experience. C Yes if we are energy, is it such a leap of faith, to think that our mental thoughts are made up of energy, and if you can accept that, then you should be able to accept that like attracts like, and if you have a thought that corresponds with the thinking of others in the universe, wont that energy attract itself to like. If you don't have a corresponding attitude then the thought will not be attracted to you. C Please define Beness: Being or Beness is simply "existing" in my understanding, and according to some philosophers is the same as living meaninglessly. DTB=09 KARMA IS UNIVERSAL LAW =96 it is Brotherhood in action everywhere. All bein= gs are subject to Karma. It provides life and environment to all. It is universally sensitive and adjusts all wrongs.=20=20 =93KARMA (Sk.). Physically, action: metaphysically, the LAW OF RETRIBUTION, the Law of cause and effect or Ethical Causation. Nemesis, only in one sense, that of bad Karma. It is the eleventh Nidana in the concatenation of causes and effects in orthodox Buddhism ; yet it is the power that controls all things, the resultant of moral action, the meta physical Samsk=E2ra, or the moral effect of an act committed for the attainment of something which gratifies a personal desire.=20 There is the Karma of merit and the Karma of demerit. Karma neither punishe= s nor rewards, it is simply the one Universal LAW which guides unerringly, and, so to say, blindly, all other laws productive of certain effects along the grooves of their respective causations. When Buddhism teaches that =93Karma is that moral kernel (of any being) which alone survives death and continues in transmigration =91 or reincarnation, it simply means that ther= e remains nought after each Personality but the causes produced by it ; cause= s which are undying, i.e., which cannot be eliminated from the Universe until replaced by their legitimate effects, and wiped out by them, so to speak, and such causes=97unless compensated during the life of the person who produced them with adequate effects, will follow the reincarnated Ego, and reach it in its subsequent reincarnation until a harmony between effects an= d causes is fully reestablished.=20 No =93personality=94=97a mere bundle of material atoms and of instinctual a= nd mental characteristics=97can of course continue, as such, in the world of p= ure Spirit.=20 Only that which is immortal in its very nature and divine in its essence, namely, the Ego, can exist for ever. And as it is that Ego which chooses th= e personality it will inform, after each Devachan, and which receives through these personalities the effects of the Karmic causes produced, it is therefore the Ego, that self which is the =93moral kernel=94 referred to an= d embodied karma, =93which alone survives death.=94 T GLOSSARY. pp 173-4 DTB BE-NESS is the absolute indescribable background to all life. It is a term that indicates the continuity of all consciousness throughout the period of rest called a Pralaya. =93BE-NESS. A term coined by Theosophists to render more accurately the essential meaning of the untranslatable word SAT. The latter word does not mean =93Being=94 for it presupposes a sentient feeling or some consciousnes= s of existence. But, as the term Sat is applied solely to the absolute Principle= , the universal, unknown, and ever unknowable Presence, which philosophical Pantheism postulates in Kosmos, calling it the basic root of Kosmos. and Kosmos itself=97 =93Being=94 was no fit word to express it. Indeed, the lat= ter is not even, as translated by some Orientalists, =93the incomprehensible Entit= y=94; for it is no more an Entity than a non-Entity, but both. It is, as said, absolute Be-ness, not Being, the one secondless, undivided, and indivisible All=97the root of all Nature visible and invisible, objective and subjectiv= e, to be sensed by the highest spiritual intuition, but=92 never to be fully comprehended.=94 Glos p 53 >From M.E.C. - What steps must I take to open the heart so as to exercise the Will for governing the Astral body? Answer - There is but one way to open the heart. That is by living the life= . It is a simple matter to govern the will, but this is not the true will. Th= e governing of the Astral body is the smallest of the tasks of the true will. The will should be used to obtain wisdom, and when so used it will control the Astral body without effort. We should exert psychic powers only to benefit others, never to free ourselves from the disagreeable. Let you aim be to find God; your motive, to know yourself for the sake of Theo-Sophia and humanity: you desire, to help humanity, and the True Will will be developed, the heart opened and you will not only control the Astral body but all in the Astral.=20 You must seek beyond the Astral for powers, but it is not wise to desire th= e acquisition of powers. Let your aim be beyond that, and the powers will gro= w of themselves. If the strong-willed or sick depress you, seek to aid each i= n some way, forget that you are depressed, forget your self, and they will no= t affect you.=20 The life of the Occult student is full of sorrow, anguish and depressing influences. These go to make him a student in the Occult.=20 A portion of his training is to become aware of these only in so far as the= y affect others. As to their affecting his own personality, he does not know they exist. If you desire to help humanity, then you possess the true motive. If you use your will in this cause, wisdom, peace and all the power= s will be given. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D 2 NON-ATTACHMENT or ISOLATION Q: C I also want to know how we are meant to be non-attached. I am referring to those that we love, how are we supposed to dis-attach ourselve= s from them, as did Gautama. To me this non-attachment leads to isolation. DTB=09 Motive is everything. Love is the one affection that binds all life together. It is all the virtues taken together in application. Vice or selfishness is destructive and causes all "bad karma." =93Non-attachment=94 means fairness and equity in the treatment of others. = We should love all our fellows, neighbors and family equally. >From Walter B. - (I) Is it well to cultivate the intellect at the expense of the heart? Do we not pay too much attention to intellectual progress, and in so doing allow the Heart-Mind to wander where it may? Answer - It is not wise to cultivate either at the expense of the other. Each alone will end at the same place - The Threshold. Both are excellent means for the manifestation of that which is higher that either, when cultivated to their highest in unison. Both are useless after a certain point, except as tools for truth. Metaphysics, logic and emotion all end at a dead wall. >From Adelphi - A most perplexed individual is writing to you. I have been for three years endeavoring to study Theosophy. I have heard lectures, have read an immense amount of literature devoted to that cult, from the sages of old down to the Sinnetts, Olcotts, and Blavatskys of the present day. I have conned the Yoga Philosophy and I read The Path. Light o= n the Path aids me not, nor does Bhagavad Gita, and why? Because I am yet without the first steps towards practice. (Surely Theosophy - like other sciences - must have something practical about it?) Guide me with your friendly hints. Imagine me alone in a room. How to commence? Show me the first step upon the practical ladder! All I have heard and read seemeth to me so elaborately unintelligible that I lay it aside and beg you to instruc= t me in my Theosophical A B C, Astral Light! Is it a figurative light, i.e. Revelation? or is it a light, as electricity - the Heavens - coal - gives light? If abstract (into insensibility) is necessary, can you instruct me upon Hypnotism (self mesmerism)? "A shining object" is advised to stare at! A mirror is a shining object, for instance. But of what avail to stare at a mirror and see reflected ugliness! Answer - You say that for three years you have been endeavoring to study Theosophy. Such being the case, you will meet with but little success. Divine Wisdom can not be a subject for study, but it may be an object of search. With the love for this same wisdom uppermost in our hearts, we ask you if it would not be wiser to lay aside the study of so called Theosophy and study yourself. Knowing yourself you know all men, the worlds seen and occult, and find Theo-Sophia.=20 One cannot absorb Theosophy as a sponge does water, to be expelled at the slightest touch. Our conception of Theosophy is apt to be based upon the idea that it is an especial line of teaching - a larger, wider, and great doctrine than others perhaps, but still a doctrine, and therefore limited.= =20 We must bear in mind that the true Theosophist belongs to no cult or sect, yet belongs to each and all; that he can find the true object of his search equally as well in the Hebrew bible as in the Yoga philosophy, in the New Testament equally as well as in the Bhagavad-Gita. You say you have "conned the Yoga philosophy." This is not enough; merely t= o "con" it is not to know it. It is in fact a most practical system (if you refer to that of Patanjali), and one that will meet all requirements you have in the way of difficulty; for it is one of the most difficult. It is not possible for you to judge its merits without practice: and it gives ful= l directions.=20 If for three years you study and practice it - aye for one year -, you will find that you need no other. In these matters there is no child's play nor the usual English and American method of mere book-learning, - we must absorb and work into the practice and the theory laid down, for they are no= t written merely for the intellect, but for the whole spiritual nature.=20 There must be within the man something which he already knows, that leaps u= p and out when he scans the books of wisdom; a thing already existing, which only takes an added life or confirmation from books. True Theosophy has all that is practical, but many forget this; there is no greater system of practice than that required by it. Desire wisdom; love all men; do your duty; forget yourself; let each though= t and act of your life have for its aim the finding of divine wisdom; strive to apply that wisdom for he good of other men. If you search in every direction, Light must come to you. Let the place in which you now are be th= e lonely room you speak of, and seek to find in everything the meaning.=20 Strive to know what they are, and by what governed or caused. This the firs= t step. Live your life with this ever before you. Purify your thought as well as your body. Reason all you can, feel all with your heart you may, and whe= n intellect and heart fail you, seek for something higher. This is the A.B.C.= ; it is enough for the present. It is not Theosophy that is a science, but its application. It is not a "cult," for it covers and includes all. The Astral Light is an actuality. It is not revelation, but a means through which that which causes revelation acts. Electricity, the heavens, all lowe= r fires, are but the shadows of the Astral Light, just as the Astral Light is but the darkness of the Ineffable Light. Abstraction into insensibility is not intended. If it had been so intended it would be unnecessary for us to be in these bodies. If you can forget yourself sufficiently - forget that you exist as a human body, you will not need to stare at a mirror; but so long as you realize, when staring into a glass, whether you be pretty or ugly, you can not reach Celestial sensibility or terrestrial insensibility. Hypnotism is the controlling of other personalities. Under this you would b= e but a puppet for the thought of another. Your outer self had better become = a puppet for you own thought. We seek to make the body alive, not to kill it. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D 3 Q.: I want to know why Animals suffer when there is obviously no Karma attached to their existence. DTB There are many reasons, as they are equally involved (as immortal monads) i= n evolution. Our own body is an "animal." It is informed by a "god-like consciousness" in potential. We share our monads with the animals and thus our Karma affects them. The great gap between us is the nature of the MIND= . They are still to acquire it.=20 DTB PROTECTION AND KINDNESS TO ANIMALS "...the purest as the noblest of all existing systems of ethics, Buddhism - -inculcates kindness and protection to every living creature, from animal and bird down to the creeping thing and even the reptile. Alone, our Western religion stands in its isolation, as a monument to the most giganti= c human selfishness ever evolved by human brain, without one word in favor of= , or for the protection of the poor animal." HPB Art II 328 KARMA OF ANIMALS "Animals have Karma, or consequence of act, but they have not man's responsibility. While they seem to suffer and enjoy, it is all without any self-consciousness, and hence is less in itself and less lasting in effect. Their karma is bound up with man; and he is the responsible one and will have to bear the responsibility, although they feel the burden directly." WQJ Art II 566=20=20 "...the effect of Karma upon the animals...(15) the whole of creation waits upon man and groans that he keeps back the enlightenment of all. What happens when...you crush out the life of a common croton bug ? Well, it is destroyed and you forget it. But you brought it to an untimely end, short though its life would have been. Imagine this being done at hundreds and thousands of places...Each of these little creatures had life, and energy; each some degree of intelligence, The sum total of effects of all these deaths of small things must be appreciable. If not, then our doctrines are wrong and there is no wrong in putting our the life of a human being ... [animals] killed for sport..." WQJ Art I 14-5 =09 "The brutes unconsciously are aware of the general human opposition, which in each human being they see focalized." WQJ Letters 87 KAMA - CENTER OF THE ANIMAL MAN "...(d) Kama rupa -- The seat of animal desires and passions. -- This i= s the center of the animal man, where lies the line of demarcation which separates the mortal man from the immortal entity." Key 91 SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS AND THE ABYSS=20 BETWEEN THE PSYCHIC AND THE NOETIC "...Self-consciousness belongs alone to man and proceeds from the SELF, the higher Manas. Only, whereas the psychic element (or Kama-manas) is common to both the animal and the human being--the far higher degree of its development in the latter resting merely on the greater perfection and sensitiveness of his cerebral cells--no physiologist...will ever be able to solve the mystery of the human mind, in its highest spiritual manifestation= , or in its dual aspect of the psychic and the noetic (or the manasic)...he would have to admit a lower (animal), and a higher (or divine) mind in man, or what is known in Occultism as the "personal" and the "impersonal" (10) Egos. For, between the psychic and the noetic, between the personality and the individuality, there exists the same abyss as between a "Jack the Ripper," and a holy Buddha." HPB Art II 9-10 "Between man and animal--whose Monads (or Jivas) are fundamentally identical--there is the impassable abyss of Mentality and Self-consciousness. What is human mind in it higher aspect, whence comes it, if it is not a portion of the essence--and, in some rare cases of incarnation, the very essence--of a higher Being: one from a higher and divine plane? Can man--a god in the animal form--be the product of Materia= l Nature by evolution alone. even as is the animal, which differs from man in external shape, but by no means in the materials of its physical fabric, an= d is informed by the same, though undeveloped, Monad--seeing that the intellectual potentialities of the two differ as the Sun does from the Glow-worm ? And what is it that creates such a difference, unless man is a= n animal plus a living god within his physical shell ?" S D II 81 NEPHESH -- THE ANIMAL SOUL "...(the) animal soul (Nephesh of the Hebrew Kabalist)...the ray which emanates from the Higher Manas or permanent EGO, and is that "principle" which forms the human mind--in animals instinct." Trans. 59 "...man has one "principle" more than the tiniest insect, but because man i= s a perfected animal, the vehicle of a fully developed monad, self-conscious and deliberately following its own line of progress, whereas in the insect, and even the higher animal, the higher triad of principles is absolutely dormant." Trans. 14-15 "A dog that has to exercise its own sagacity to find food, will sooner develop psychical powers in that direction, than one that does nothing but eat and sleep, and the individual or differentiated monad of the former wil= l sooner reach the condition necessary to enter the human kingdom. The rudiments of hope, patience, faith, fidelity, confidence, etc., are found i= n the animal kingdom." -- HPB Theosophist 5- p. 223=20 DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ANIMALS AND MEN "The difference between animals and men is this: the former are ensouled b= y the "principles" potentially, the latter actually." Key 104=09 MAN'S FORM IS AN ANIMAL "Man...in his outward form, simply an animal, hardly more perfect than his pithecoid-like ancestor of the 3rd Round. He is a living body, not a livin= g being, since the realization of existence, the "Ego-Sum," necessitates self-consciousness, and an animal can only have direct consciousness, or instinct. The soul, whose body vehicle is the Astral, ethereo-substantial envelope, could die, and man be still living on earth--i.e., the soul could free itself from and quit the tabernacle for various reasons--such as insanity, spiritual and physical depravity, etc. Therefore that which living men (Initiates) can do, the Dhyanis, who have no physical body to hamper them, can do still better." SD I 134-5 MAN A PERFECTED ANIMAL -- VEHICLE OF A MONAD "...man is a perfected animal, the vehicle of a fully developed monad, self-conscious and deliberately following its own line of progress, whereas in the insect, and even the higher animal, the higher triad of principles i= s absolutely dormant." Trans. 14-15 LIGHTING UP OF THE MANAS (MIND) "Having passed through all the kingdoms of nature in the previous three Rounds, his physical frame--one adapted to the thermal conditions of those early periods--was ready to receive the divine Pilgrim at the first dawn of human life, i.e., 18,000,000 years ago. It is only at the (255) mid-point of the 3rd Root-Race that man was endowed with Manas. Once united the two and then the three made one; for though the lower animals, from the amoeba to man, received their monads, in which all the higher qualities are potential, all have to remain dormant till each reaches its human form, before which stage manas (mind) has no development in them. In the animals every principle is paralyzed, and in a fetus-like state, save the 2nd (vital) and the 3rd (the astral), and the rudiments of the 4th (Kama, which is desire, instinct) whose intensity and development varies and changes wit= h the species." S D II 254-5 "Atma-Buddhi [ Monad ] is dual and Manas is triple; inasmuch as the former has two aspects, and the latter three, i.e., as a principle per se, which gravitates, in its higher aspect, to Atma-Buddhi, and follows, in its lower nature, Kama, the seat of terrestrial divisions awakening to intelligence; and the third and last decidedly animal: i.e., Manas succumbs to the temptations of Kama." Men are made complete only during their third, towar= d the fourth cycle (race). They are made "gods" for good or evil, and responsible only when the two arcs meet (after 3 1/2 Rounds towards the fifth Race). They are made so by the Nirmanakaya (spiritual or astral remains) of the Rudra-Kumaras, "cursed to be reborn on earth again; meanin= g doomed in their natural turn to reincarnation in the higher ascending arc o= f the terrestrial cycle." SD II 254-5fn PHYSICAL MAN "The physical man is as little responsible as a dog or a mouse. For the bodily form all is over with the death of the body. But for the real SELF, that which emanated its own shadow, or the lower thinking personality, that enacted and pulled the wires during the life of the physical automaton, wil= l have to suffer conjointly with its factotum and alter ego in the next incarnation." Trans. 67 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: cassilva48 Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 4:57 PM To:=20 Subject: [bn-study] Love I also want to know how we are meant to be non-attached. I am referring to those that we love, how are we supposed to dis-attach ourselves from them, as did Gautama. To me this non-attachment leads to isolation. Cass From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 04 04:15:25 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 8758 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2004 12:15:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2004 12:15:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Dec 2004 12:15:24 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.79] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CaYoc-0008WT-Ak; Sat, 04 Dec 2004 07:15:14 -0500 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 04:14:25 -0800 Message-ID: <001801c4d9fa$e2c6fe80$4fdeb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79c4803c63550ac8c3949a3a1e47340bc3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.222.79 Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: THE RADHASOAMI FAITH, AND THEOSOPHY. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 3 2004 Dear Friends: Recent inquiries and exchanges on the subject of dreams and visions suggest this article be circulated for information . =20 SHALL WE TEACH CLAIRVOYANCE? A NOTE OF WARNING MY attention has been arrested by the address delivered in the Adyar course by Dr. Daly and reported in the September THEOSOPHIST. It is entitled "Clairvoyance." Coming out in the Adyar course, it has a certain flavor of authority which will appeal to many members of the Society and may cause them to adopt the suggestions for practice given in the latter part of the address. Yet at th= e same time it is very true that the Theosophical Society is not responsible for the utterances of members in their private capacity. The fact that clairvoyance is a power sought after by many persons cannot b= e disputed, but the questions, Is it well to try to develop clairvoyance? and Shall we teach it? have not yet been definitely decided. Hence I may be permitted to give my views upon them. At the outset I desire to declare my personal attitude on these questions and my beliefs as to facts. In using the term "clairvoyance" I intend to include in it all clear perception on that plane. I. I have for many years been convinced by proofs furnished by others and from personal experience that clairvoyance is a power belonging to man's s inner nature; and also that it is possessed by the animal kingdom. 2. This faculty is either inherited or educed by practice. 3. Those who have it by birth are generally physically diseased or nervousl= y deranged. The cases where clairvoyance is shown by a perfectly healthy and well-balanced person are rare. 4. The records of spiritualism for over forty years in America conclusively prove that clairvoyance cannot be safely sought after by persons who have n= o competent guide; that its pursuit has done harm; and that almost every medium to whom one puts the question "Am I able to develop clairvoyance?" will reply "Yes." 5. There are no competent guides in this pursuit to be found here or in Europe who are willing to teach one how to acquire it without danger. 6. The qualifications such a guide should possess render the finding of one difficult if not impossible. They are: the power to look within and see clearly the whole inner nature of the student; a complete knowledge of all the planes upon which clairvoyance acts, including knowledge of the source, the meaning, and the effect of all that is perceived by the clairvoyant; an= d last, but not least, the power to stop at will the exercise of the power. Evidently these requirements call for an adept. Who are the teachers of clairvoyance, and those who advise that it be practiced? In the main, the first are mediums, and any investigator knows how little they know.=20 Every one of them differs from every other in his powers. The majority have only one sort of clairvoyance; here and there are some who combine, at most= , three classes of the faculty.=20 Not a single one is able to mentally see behind the image or idea perceived= , and cannot say in a given case whether the image seen is the object itself or the result of a thought from another mind.=20 For in these planes of perception the thoughts of men become as objective a= s material objects are to our human eyes. It is true that a clairvoyant can tell you that what is being thus perceived is not apprehended by the physical eye, but beyond that he cannot go. Of this I have had hundreds of examples.=20 In 99 out of 100 instances the seer mistook the thought from another mind for a clairvoyant perception of a living person or physical object. The seers of whom I speak see always according to their inner tendency, which is governed by subtle laws of heredity which are wholly unknown to scientific men and much more to mediums and seers.=20 One will only reach the symbolic plane; another that which is known to occultists as the positive side of sound; another to the negative or positive aspects of the epidermis and its emanations; and so on through innumerable layer after layer of clairvoyance and octave after octave of vibrations.=20 They all know but the little they have experienced, and for any other perso= n to seek to develop the power is dangerous. The philosophy of it all, the laws that cause the image to appear and disappear, are terra incognita. The occult septenary scheme in nature with all its modifications produces multiple effects, and no mere clairvoyant is able to see the truth that underlies the simplest instance of clairvoyant perception. If a man moves from one chair to another, immediately hundreds of possibilities arise for the clairvoyant eye, and he alone who is a highly trained and philosophical seer -- an adept, in short -- can combine them all so as to arrive at true clear-perception. In the simple act described almost all the centres of force in the moving being go into operation, and each one produces its own peculiar effect in the astral light.=20 At once the motion made and thoughts aroused elicit their own sound, color, motion in ether, amount of etheric light, symbolic picture, disturbance of elemental forces, and so on through the great catalogue. Did but one wink his eye, the same effects follow in due order. And the seer can perceive bu= t that which attunes itself to his own development and personal peculiarities= , all limited in force and degree. What, may I ask, do clairvoyants know of the law of prevention or encrustation which is acting always with many people? Nothing, absolutely nothing. How do they explain those cases where, try as they will, they cannot see anything whatever regarding certain things?=20 Judging from human nature and the sordidness of many schools of clairvoyance, are we not safe in affirming that if there were any real or reliable clairvoyance about us now-a-days among those who offer to teach it or take pay for it, long ago fortunes would have been made by them, banks despoiled, lost articles found, and friends more often reunited?=20 Admitting that there have been sporadic instances of success on these lines= , does not the exception prove that true clairvoyance is not understood or likely to be? But what shall theosophists do? Stop all attempts at clairvoyance. And why? Because it leads them slowly but surely - almost beyond recall into an interior and exterior passive state where the will is gradually overpowered and they are at last in the power of the demons who lurk around the threshold of our consciousness.=20 Above all, follow no advice to "sit for development." Madness lies that way= . The feathery touches which come upon the skin while trying these experiment= s are said by mediums to be the gentle touches of "the spirits."=20 But they are not. They are caused by the ethereal fluids from within us making their way out through the skin and thus producing the illusion of a touch. When enough has gone out, then the victim is getting gradually negative, the future prey for spooks and will-o'-the-wisp images. "But what," they say, "shall we pursue and study?" Study the philosophy of life, leave the decorations that line the road of spiritual development for future lives, and practice altruism. WILLIAM Q. JUDGE Path, December, 1890 =20 ------------------------------------------------------------- =20 DELUSIONS OF CLAIRVOYANCE SOME years ago it was proposed that psychometry should be used in detecting crime and for the exposing of motive in all transactions between man and man. This, the alleged discoverer said, would alter the state of society by compelling people to be honest and by reducing crime.=20 Now for those who do not know, it may be well to say that when you psychometrize you take any object that has been in the immediate vicinity o= f any person or place of any action, or the writing of another, and by holdin= g it to your forehead or in the hand a picture of the event, the writer, the surroundings, and the history of the object, comes before your mental eye with more or less accuracy.=20 Time and distance are said to make no difference, for the wrapping from a mummy has been psychometrized by one who knew nothing about it, and the mummy with its supposed history accurately described. Letters also have bee= n similarly treated without reading them, and not only their contents given but also the unexpressed thoughts and the surroundings of the writers. Clairvoyants have also on innumerable occasions given correct descriptions of events and persons they could never have seen or known. But other innumerable times they have failed. Without doubt if the city government, or any body of people owning property that can be stolen, had in their employment a man or woman who could declar= e beyond possibility of ever failing where any stolen article was, and who stole it, and could in advance indicate a purpose on the part of another to steal, to trick, to lie, or otherwise do evil, one of two things would happen.=20 Either criminals or intending offenders would abide elsewhere, or some mean= s of getting rid of the clear-seer would be put into effect. Looking at the alluring possibilities of clairvoyance so far as it is understood, many persons have sighed for its power for several different reasons. Some would use it for the purposes described, but many another has thought of it merel= y as a new means for furthering personal ends. Its delusions are so manifold that, although mystical and psychical subject= s have obtained in the public mind a new standing, clairvoyance will not be other than a curiosity for some time, and when its phenomena and laws are well understood no reliance greater than now will be placed upon it. And even when individual clairvoyants of wonderful power are known, they will not be accessible for such uses, because, having reached their power by special training, the laws of their school will prohibit the exercise of th= e faculty at the bidding of selfish interest, whether on the one side or the other. If it were not always a matter of doubt and difficulty, natural clear-seers would have long ago demonstrated the unerring range of their vision by discovering criminals still uncaught, by pointing out where stolen property could be recovered, by putting a finger on a moral plague-spot which is known to exist but cannot be located. Yet this they have not done, and careful Theosophists are confirmed in the old teaching that the field of clairvoyance is full of delusions. Coming evil could in the same way be averted, since present error is the prelude and cause of future painful results. The prime cause for delusion is that the thought of anything makes around the thinker an image of the thing thought about. And all images in this thought-field are alike, since we remember an object by our thought-image o= f it, and not by carrying the object in our heads.=20 Hence the picture in our aura of what we have seen in the hands of another is of the same sort for untrained seers-as our ideas on the subject of events in which we have not participated.=20 So a clairvoyant may, and in fact does, mistake these thought-pictures one for the other, thus reducing the chances of certainty. If an anxious mother imagines her child in danger and with vivid bought pictures the details of = a railway accident, the picture the seer may see will be of something that never happened and is only the product of emotion or imagination. Mistakes in identity come next. These are more easily made a the astral plane, which is the means for clairvoyance, than yen upon the visible one, and will arise from numerous causes. So numerous and complex is this that t= o fully explain would not only be hopeless but tedious.=20 For instance, the person, say at a distance, to whom the clairvoyant eye is directed may look entirely different from reality, whether as clothing or physiognomy. He may, in the depths of winter, appear clad in spring clothing, and your clairvoyant report that, adding probably that it symbolizes something next spring. But, in fact, the spring clothing was due to his thoughts about well-worn comfortable suit of this sort throwing a glamour f the clothing before the vision of the seer. Some cases exactly like this I have known and verified. Or the lover, dwelling on the form and features of his beloved, or the criminal upon the one he has wronged, will work a protean change and destroy identification. Another source of error will be found in the unwitting transfer to the clairvoyant of your own thoughts, much altered either for better or worse. Or even the thoughts of some one else whom you have just met or heard from. For if you consult the seer on some line of thought, having just read the ideas on the same subject of another who thinks very strongly and very clearly, and whose character is overmastering, the clairvoyant will ten to one feel the influence of the other and give you his ideas. Reversion of image is the last I will refer to. It has been taught always i= n the unpopular school of Theosophy that the astral light reverses the images= , just as science knows the image a the retina is not upright.=20 Not only have the Cabalists said this, but also the Eastern schools, and those who now have studied these doctrines along Theosophical lines have discovered it to be a fact. So the untrained clairvoyant may see a number o= r amount backwards, or an object upside down in whole or in part.=20 The reliance we can place on the observations of untrained people in ordinary life the scientific schools and courts of law have long ago discovered; but seekers after the marvellous carelessly accept the observations of those who must be equally untrained in the field of clairvoyance. Of course there are many genuine cases of good clear-seeing, but the mass are not to be relied on. The cultivation of psychic senses is more difficult than any physical gymnastics, and the number of really trained clairvoyants in the Western world may be described by a nought written to the left. M. MORE Path, July, 1892 -------------------------------------------------------- Some further comments are given here: Moral States Classified "The following classification and discussion of the three qualities ( B. Gita, Ch. 14) illustrates the vital difference between the ancient, true psychology of the East, and what is termed Western psychology. Both abound in classifications; those of the East are much more numerous...and cover a wider field; Western psychology in its classifications refers solely to mental states. The psychology of the Gita and the ancient sages classify the moral states, treating the mental states as mere effects produced by moral conditions. Herein lies the secret of the hold the Gita has had all down the ages, and continues to have increasingly. It lays bare the unsuspected bases of error; it discloses the most subtle forms of self-delusion; it marks out the true course so painstakingly that the dullest mind cannot fail to grasp a clear perception of the path to true knowledge." G. N. p. 197 "...the word Kama...means "desire,"...the 4th principle was the "body or mass of desires and passions." [GITA NOTES 197: -- "Western psychology in classifications refers solely to mental states...[Eastern} and the ancient sages classifies the moral states, treating the mental states as mere effects produced by moral conditions...It lays bare unsuspected bases of error; it discloses the most subtle forms of self-delusion; it marks out the true course so painstakingly that the dullest mind cannot fail to grasp a clear perception of the path to true knowledge."]...The West divides man into intellect, will and feeling, but it is not understood whether the passions and desires constitute a principle in themselves or are due entirely to the body..."desires of the flesh,...fleshly appetites." OCEAN 45 WESTERN SCIENTIFIC PSYCHOLOGY STYMIED "The lack of an adequate system of Psychology is a natural consequence of the materialistic bias of Science and the paralyzing influence of dogmatic religion; the one ridiculing effort and blocking the way, the other forbidding investigation...Real psychology is an Oriental product today...the system was known in the West when a very ancient civilization flourished in America, and in certain parts of Europe anterior to the Christian era, but for the present day, psychology in its true sense belong= s to the Orient... "In man are the same powers and forces which are to be found anywhere in Nature. He is held by the Masters of Wisdom to be the highest product of the whole system of evolution, and mirrors in himself every power, however wonderful or terrible, of Nature; by the very fact of being such a mirror he is man." OCEAN 135-6 "Some day proofs as conclusive [as that of the theory of Evolution in the Rig Veda or the Books of Hermes] will be discovered of the reliability of the ancient writers as their evidence on psychological matters...There can be no real enfranchisement of human thought nor expansion of scientific discovery until the existence of spirit is recognized." - H.P.Blavatsky Modern Panarion, p. 93 PASSIONS AND DESIRES "The passions and desires are not produced by the body...on the contrary, the body is caused by the former. it is desire and passion which caused us to be born, and will bring us to birth again and again in some body on this earth...[it] is the balance principle of the whole 7. It stands in the middle, and from it the ways go up or down. It is the basis of action, and the mover of the will..."Behind will stands desire." OCEAN 46 "[Low desires] the constant placing of the consciousness entirely below in the body or astral body... [High desires] the influence of and aspiration to the trinity above, of Mind, Buddhi and Spirit... [During life] the emplacement of the desires and passions is...throughout the entire lower man...it may be added to or diminished, made weak or increased in strength, debased or purified. [After death] it (Kama) informs the astral body, which then becomes a mere shell; for when a man dies his astral body and principle of passion and desire leave the physical in company and coalesce, It is then that the ter= m Kamarupa may be applied, as Kamarupa is really made of astral body and Kama in conjunction, and this joining of the two makes a shape or form which though ordinarily invisible is material and may be brought into visibility. Although it is empty of mind and conscience, it has powers of its own that can be exercised whenever the conditions permit. These conditions are furnished by the medium of the spiritualists, and in every seance room the astral shells of deceased persons are always present to delude the sitters... For the astral spook--or Kamarupa--is but the mass of the desire= s and passions abandoned by the real person who has fled to "heaven and has n= o concern with the people left behind, least of all with seances and mediums. Hence, being devoid of the nobler soul, these desires and passions work onl= y on the very lowest part of the medium's nature and stir up no good elements= , but always the lower leanings of the being... The Kamarupa spook is the enemy of our civilization, which permits us to execute men for crimes committed and thus throws out into the ether the mas= s of passion and desire free from the weight of the body and liable at any moment to be attracted to any sensitive person. Being thus attracted, the deplorable images of crimes committed and also the picture of the execution and all the accompanying curses and wishes for revenge are implanted in living persons, who, not seeing the evil, are unable to throw it off. Thus crimes and new ideas of crimes are willfully propagated every day by those countries where capital punishment prevails." OCEAN 47-48 DANGER OF EXERCISING PSYCHIC POWERS "To attempt to acquire the use of the psychic powers for mere curiosity or for selfish ends is also dangerous for the same reasons as in the case of mediumship. As the...present day is selfish to the last degree and built o= n the personal element, the rules for these powers in the right way have not been given out, but the Masters of Wisdom have said that philosophy and ethics must first be learned and practiced before any development of the other department [psychism] is indulged in... Equally improper is the manner of the scientific schools which...indulge in experiments in hypnotism in which the subjects are injured for life...=20 "The Lodge of the Masters does not care for Science unless it aims to bette= r man's state morally as well as physically, and no aid will be given to Science until she looks at man and life from the moral and spiritual side. For this reason, those who know all about the psychical world, its denizens and laws, are proceeding with a reform in morals and philosophy before any great attention will be accorded to the strange and seductive phenomena possible for the inner powers of man." OCEAN 152 =09 WHAT ARE THE "MORAL STATES ?" =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Some Notes derived from studying HPB: =09=09 Metaphysics is the "mother-plant" of psychology. It is a science of first principles. The Esoteric Philosophy recognizes in the ultimate analysis that there is only One Reality. This lies behind the illusions (Maya) of our Universe of forms. It is called variously Sat or Para-Brahm, the "Great Unknown." There is a continual circuit of manifestation followed by rest (pralaya, or non-manifestation - a supra-physical, "spiritual" state). This compares with our cycle of sleeping and waking. The duality, in manifestation of Spirit and Matter is a fact. These emerge from the One Reality, and are found in ancient philosophy designated as the Word (Logos)--Spirit; and, Matter (Mula-prakriti) --Root Matter. They equilibrate each other constantly. The great Law of cause and effect, measured, regular, constant and consistent, ever merciful and totally just runs continuously through all periods. It has been called variously: the One Life, Karma, the "Great Breath." It works in and on everyone impartially. One of the chief differences between antique psychological philosophical systems and the modern is that in antiquity, the moral states were classified. States of Consciousness and Perception were held to be the result of those moral conditions. Morality is defined as those acts, thoughts and feeling which harmonize wit= h the Great Law of the Evolutionary progress of the Universe. Of necessity this is universal in scope, considers the value and necessity of every creature, every particle of substance. Nothing is excluded or held to be unrelated to its all-encompassing purview. Immorality is held to be anything adverse, by definition it is limited, selfish, acquisitive defensive of territory and possessions. Eastern Psychology recognizes in Man's conscious constitution several distinct and active principles: 1. The Emotions: feelings, desires, needs and wants, all centered around the personality the "I"-self in waking consciousness. It i= s very "territorial." These are seen to come and go and change constantly. It rarely considers consequences, is rash and wayward. 2. The Mind: thoughts, imagination, fancy, ability to study and analyze, memory, extrapolation, etc... This is called the True Self an= d the Individual. This sense of Individuality persists throughout the life i= n spite of many changes. It is "superior" to the "emotional, the selfish self, as it can control and direct it. It tends to be deliberate and considers results that may accrue to actions. 3. In waking consciousness these two are combined to form two operative points of dialog: There is an alliance between one aspect of the mind and the emotions. This makes up the "Lower Mind" - selfish, territorial, vicious, amatory, etc... The second unit is that aspect of th= e mind which coalesces with experience, with the memory of results and considers those which are beneficial to itself or dangerous in potential. It has been called "The Higher Mind." One of its faculties is to access to the common and universal plane of Mentality in the Universe where results o= f all past events and actions are recorded. ["Actions" include: desires, thoughts, and physical acts.] 4. Mind (Soul) is that which persists. In Eastern psychology it is held that it constitutes an unbreakable thread of consciousness between the life experiences of this personality and that of previous personalities ensouled by it through the process of reincarnation. 5. Mind is allied, in it higher, nobler aspect, to a principle of Universal Wisdom--the source of Law, Karma, Justice and Progress. It ha= s been named Wisdom, Buddhi. This the Higher Mind is called Buddhi-Manas to use terms that philosophers employ in Sanskrit. The "Lower Mind" is denote= d Kama-Manas, or the desire-mind. This last informs the personality and give= s it its awareness. It transfers constantly its impressions to the Higher Mind, and at the death of the body it makes a final transfer to the Higher Mind. This becomes the conveyor of the life of the Entity through a review and resting period to its eventual return on Earth in a new body. 6. Intuition and the "Voice of Conscience" are evidence of the communications between the Higher and the Lower Minds during life. The Higher, having access to past experience in full, warns the lower, when necessary at the time when it makes decisions or choices. These may or may not be heeded by the embodied Lower Mind. Consequences ensue and this is called "Karma," the ledger balance of all our activities, visible and invisible, physical or immaterial. 7. We are part of a vast host of intelligences. Men-minds like ourselves, and levels of consciousness represented by the animals, plants, minerals and other elements of the Universe. It is also reasonable to consider that there are our predecessors on the Ladder of Evolution. Those once men like ourselves who have progressed to a wiser and wider view of things. Like our teachers, instructors and professors they remain as assistants, whose advise is available to those of us who care to seek for and ask for it. 8. The subject of the "will." or the executive power which transfers an "idea" into an action is also to be considered. It is volitional, directive, serves as a bridge between the mind and the hands that work in the world of physical matter. It is "colorless." It can be employed by either the Lower or the Higher Mind. 9. The Buddha was the greatest of psychologists. He showed the inquirer how to understand Suffering as part of a pair. Happiness was the alternative. There is something in Man which sees both sides. This sensitivity evokes compassion. To refrain from hurting others while gently but firmly insisting on equity is the study of the ages. The personal application leads to Adeptship through true non-violence. 10. The Higher Self is common to all it being Atma, and universal. As a drop resides in the Ocean, so the Higher Self of each individual resides in the Universal Spirit. It is at once a part of THAT, and yet is individualized. We therefore share in all the sufferings and th= e pleasures of others. We are their brothers and sisters in Spirit. 11. Each individual has to come to the realization that he alone will save or damn himself.=20=20 12. Each one is morally obliged to assist all others when able to do so. The motive for such assistance has to be disinterested, to be true. STATEMENTS AND WARNINGS BY HPB "Psychism, with all its allurements and all its dangers, is necessarily developing among you, and you might beware lest the Psychic outruns the Manasic and Spiritual development. Psychic capacities held perfectly under control, checked and directed by the manasic principle, are valuable aids i= n development. But these capacities running riot controlling instead of controlled, using instead of being used, lead the Student into the most dangerous delusions and the certainty of moral destruction. Watch therefor= e carefully this development, inevitable in your race and evolution-period so that it may finally work for good and not for evil..." HPB -- 5 Messages, p. 29 ------------------------------------------ Best wishes, Dallas From dharao4@yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 04 09:28:32 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dharao4@yahoo.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59970 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2004 17:28:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2004 17:28:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web86907.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) (217.12.13.59) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Dec 2004 17:28:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 19593 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Dec 2004 17:28:30 -0000 Message-ID: <20041204172830.19591.qmail@web86907.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Received: from [217.207.133.137] by web86907.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 04 Dec 2004 17:28:30 GMT Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 17:28:30 +0000 (GMT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 217.12.13.59 From: robert searle Subject: Psychic Protection, and Visionary Experiences. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=174372458 X-Yahoo-Profile: dharao4 Dear All, In the Radhasoami Faith the Five Holy Names, or the one Holy Name is used not only to help withdraw conciousness to the Third Eye but also acts as a means of protection against negative forces. Here, we are really talking about a special mantra which is charged by the RS Sant Satguru. Such a method is used not just in Indian traditions but in many others such as Sufism, and Buddhism. A book entitled India of Yogis by the Spainish psychiatrist Dr. Alfonso Caycedo looks into the subject of inner visions of yogis. It was found that they were not highly regarded but were seen as merely milestones on the way to "God-Realization". Indeed, they were sometimes interpreted as just hallucinations...and hence, of no importance at all. In Shabd Yoga the attitude is largely the same. As the Satsangi ascends into the higher planes during meditation he must not get lost in the fantastic scenery of his experience. Instead, he must concentrate on the Radiant Form of his Master, or Sant Satguru. This is all important, or else ofcourse he, or she may go astray. I remember once a Satsangi telling me that he saw someone faint due he claimed to possession. However, it transpired that such experiences happened when the inner Light suddenly became too dazzling. This caused the recepient usually a woman to faint at times of high emotion. ___________________________________________________________ Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality. Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k From ringding777@t-online.de Sat Dec 04 11:21:41 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding777@t-online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 55661 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2004 19:21:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2004 19:21:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout08.sul.t-online.com) (194.25.134.20) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Dec 2004 19:21:40 -0000 Received: from fwd08.aul.t-online.de by mailout08.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CafTP-0007wH-02; Sat, 04 Dec 2004 20:21:39 +0100 Received: from captainfb78633 (JbvpFeZ18e4vaN6NBzreUERXX7RmGwHWqwFmAu8DD9Zlvp+g249t8S@[217.81.97.58]) by fwd08.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CafTJ-1ZYmoa0; Sat, 4 Dec 2004 20:21:33 +0100 Message-ID: <04dd01c4da36$ce1924e0$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> To: References: <20041010100843.65683.qmail@web51709.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 20:23:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ID: JbvpFeZ18e4vaN6NBzreUERXX7RmGwHWqwFmAu8DD9Zlvp+g249t8S X-TOI-MSGID: 5f7b3fcb-136a-4ac0-bdfb-927ebf5e7659 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 194.25.134.20 X-eGroups-From: ringding777@t-online.de (Frank Reitemeyer) From: ringding777@t-online.de Subject: Re: Theos-World Judge "even higher than" Blavatsky?? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=190924709 X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer > I think that you are talking about some letters that > exists in Adyar > related to Judge and Besant. > In her last visit to Argentina (April 2004), Radha > Burnier told me > that in Adyar exist a pile of letters about "Judge's > case" that > shows the righteous of Besant's attitude. > "Unfortunately -said me > Radha- there are a lot of theosophical work to do > and there are no > time for compile and edit this material. But someone > will must do it > in some time". As a theosophist I never believe anything what the hypocrites from Adyar claim. If there is no one who is interested in publishing the warning letters of Judge to Besant, why do they give no one else the opportunity to it? Perhaps Mrs Burnier would have more time to do theosophical work and publish the Judge letters (in the 1960'ies when Boris de Zirkoff viewed them, but was not allowed to publish them, the ink was already faded away) if she would not stick with Krishnamurti poppycock. And why did Joy Mills say that the Adyar bonzes will the glad when the letters get rot. > Theosophical Society of Adyar works in order to > promote a spiritual > regeneration in humanity, and usually sees all this Really? I have witnessed several times quite the opposite. It seems one of us two must be liar. > Dear Frank, as I can see through your messages, you > have a strong > tendency to see "black forces" and "dark reasons" in > everything that > is not your own point of view. Much of your > accusations to Adyar > T.S. are fantasies of people that imagine and > speculate, but don't > actually know, in which sense works the Adyar T.S. Really? Please explain me why the Adyar TS at its 2002 Berlin Convention recommended evil doings to be able to be a warrior of light for the now beginning last war to free the planet forever? It was said - in the presence of Radha Burnier and Mary Anderson - without allowing anyone to speak free or to contradict - that only that people which are doing evils now will be chosen by the Masters. So I kindly ask you: Which Masters do you have at Adyar? Obviously they are not the Masters of HPB. Your satanic brood is even far more worse than the Vatican and SJ together. Lie, hypocrisy, deception, misreprentation, contumely and ACTIVE BLACK MAGIC against true theosophists is the Adyar brand. And that has not changed much for the last 120 years. The Masters have left in 1885 and they never returned to Adyar. Expect the Krishnamurti poppycock. > much bad, as being in control of dugpas. You can be > in disaccord > with some points of view, etc. But you will be able > to see in a > compassionate and non-fanatic form the other people. > Sorry if I'm harsh in my expression... but remember > that I don't > know very much English... > With warm regards > p Toleration is a good thing, so long as your crazy Adyar people do not persecute the little ones. Your tone is very much psychic or emotional, quite the opposite of what is regarded in theosophy as spiritual. There is no spiritual argument in your answer. Not one. And that is typical for your gang. Also typical is the projection behavior. It is you who in twisting and misrepresentation the dorctrines and terms is fanatical, not your victims. To speak out cleary: Everyone who is a party-liner of Adyar and tries to hypnotize the people, prevent them to think and paralyse them with emotionalism (saying it's spiritual) is in fact an insane person. I have witnessed that in dozens of cases with local theosophists here and so it was reported to me also from many others. I have absolutely NO reason to mistrust them what I have eyewitnessed for many years. The real existing Adyar organization is a very big danger for true spiritual progress. And it is exactly for that reason that the theosophical organizations were prohibited by Hitler. And because of your Adyar pseudo-theosophy also the pukka theosophists had to suffer. You know that because in the Adyar archives is your letter exchange with Hitler. This letters would also interest many, but Adyar does not publish them. Perhaps you have also not enough time for that?? Har, har. with no king regards, Frank From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat Dec 04 12:01:05 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 21254 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2004 20:01:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2004 20:01:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Dec 2004 20:01:04 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Dec 2004 20:00:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.142] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Dec 2004 20:00:59 -0000 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 20:00:48 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3141 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.38 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: "....seek not for thy Guru in those Mayavic regions." THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell "....seek not for thy Guru in those Mayavic regions." THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE Extracts ----------------------------------------------------- Three Halls, O weary pilgrim, lead to the end of toils. Three Halls, O conqueror of Mara, will bring thee through three states into the fourth and thence into the seven worlds, the worlds of Rest Eternal. If thou would'st learn their names, then hearken, and remember. The name of the first Hall is IGNORANCE -- Avidya. It is the Hall in which thou saw'st the light, in which thou livest and shalt die. If thou would'st cross the first Hall safely, let not thy mind mistake the fires of lust that burn therein for the Sunlight of life. The WISE ONES tarry not in pleasure-grounds of senses. This earth, O ignorant Disciple, is but the dismal entrance leading to the twilight that precedes the valley of true light -- that light which no wind can extinguish, that light which burns without a wick or fuel. Shun ignorance, and likewise shun illusion. Avert thy face from world deceptions; mistrust thy senses, they are false. But within thy body - - the shrine of thy sensations -- seek in the Impersonal for the "eternal man"; and having sought him out, look inward: thou art Buddha. Thy shadows live and vanish; that which in thee shall live for ever, that which in thee knows, for it is knowledge, is not of fleeing life: it is the man that was, that is, and will be, for whom the hour shall never strike. The name of Hall the second is the Hall of Learning. In it thy Soul will find the blossoms of life, but under every flower a serpent coiled. If thou would'st cross the second safely, stop not the fragrance of its stupefying blossoms to inhale. If freed thou would'st be from the Karmic chains, seek not for thy Guru in those Mayavic regions. The WISE ONES heed not the sweet-tongued voices of illusion. And having learnt thine own Agnyana, flee from the Hall of Learning. This Hall is dangerous in its perfidious beauty, is needed but for thy probation. Beware, Lanoo, lest dazzled by illusive radiance thy Soul should linger and be caught in its deceptive light. This light shines from the jewel of the Great Ensnarer, (Mara). The senses it bewitches, blinds the mind, and leaves the unwary an abandoned wreck. The name of the third Hall is Wisdom, beyond which stretch the shoreless waters of AKSHARA, the indestructible Fount of Omniscience. Seek for him who is to give thee birth, in the Hall of Wisdom, the Hall which lies beyond, wherein all shadows are unknown, and where the light of truth shines with unfading glory. That which is uncreate abides in thee, Disciple, as it abides in that Hall. If thou would'st reach it and blend the two, thou must divest thyself of thy dark garments of illusion. Stifle the voice of flesh, allow no image of the senses to get between its light and thine that thus the twain may blend in one. If through the Hall of Wisdom, thou would'st reach the Vale of Bliss, Disciple, close fast thy senses against the great dire heresy of separateness that weans thee from the rest. From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat Dec 04 12:19:57 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12791 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2004 20:19:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2004 20:19:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.20) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Dec 2004 20:19:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n12.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Dec 2004 20:19:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.154] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Dec 2004 20:19:41 -0000 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 20:19:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 413 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.20 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Hall of Magic Mirrors by Victor Endersby Online X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell I have just been informed by a correspondent that THE HALL OF MAGIC MIRRORS by Victor Endersby is now available online at: http://tinyurl.com/489h8 This book published in 1969 is a study of H.P. Blavatsky's life and work with a special look at the attacks against her including an analysis of the Hodgson Report. It brings back fond memories of 1969 when I first read this book. Daniel http://hpb.cc From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Dec 05 06:20:48 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 92298 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2004 14:20:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Dec 2004 14:20:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 2004 14:20:46 -0000 Received: from [209.179.216.170] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CaxFi-0008HZ-2O; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 09:20:44 -0500 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 06:19:40 -0800 Message-ID: <001001c4dad5$98f5a0a0$aad8b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <20041203213204.39898.qmail@web86902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79d1c76beacad5ce3b084439a475b70352350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.216.170 Subject: RE: The Question of Power. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 5 2004 Dear Friends: May I interject some ideas? The motto adopted by the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY is "THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN TRUTH." Next: THEOSOPHY is not to be confused with the opinions held concerning the life and activities of those who are connected with or associated with THEOSOPHY the ancient philosophy. Theosophy is said to be as ancient as the Universe, and to be a record of the history of the reincarnation of Universes, as well as of man-bearing Worlds, such as ours. It records therefore the birth and "creation" of all Universes, galaxies, Solar Systems, worlds, human beings, etc.. and with equal skill, considers the importance of atoms, molecules and their smallest components. It views our universe and world as examples of fields of evolution rules by exact and sensitive laws that serve to protect and sustain all beings of whatever kind or degree, visible or invisible. It is for the "members" and the whole of humanity to APPLY.=20=20 Otherwise, the membership (through its many members) deals in hypocrisy, If one thinks of "power," then the only possible power of any value to a member, or to anyone alive, is the power to control their lower selfish self. [Kama]. It is the power of honesty in all affairs that transforms al= l vices into VIRTUES. It is also a DUTY of "members" to diffuse a knowledge of what THEOSOPHY is to all others. This is a serious matter. The basis for this is the following.=20=20 HPB makes it plain in all her writings. 1 The UNIVERSE is one WHOLE. 2 We as Minds and Immortal Beings are an indissoluble and essential part of it.=20 3 The rules and Laws of life are the same for all. They cannot be broken, bent or subverted. No "Personal God" exists that has the power to d= o that.=20 4 The Universe, as "Nature," has established (since billions of years) all the necessary laws and rules for co-existence. All beings of whatever diversity or kind have lawful and well established relations with all the rest. This has always been in existence, even if we have just become aware of it, and of the responsibilities that are now ours, because of this knowledge.=20=20 5 "Science" and scientists are continually finding evidence of this fact: that the UNIVERSE has established these rules, and has administered them honestly and fairly for all. In all cases, science continues to prove and demonstrate this everywhere. Mankind is included in this orderliness.=20 6 The "Laws Of Life" in the Universe, that science discovers, are based on the immortality, and continuity through eternity, of basic atomic and molecular energies. Atoms are not physical but trans-physical centers of force. We are just beginning to discover the nature of those individual basic powers, and their cooperative nature.=20 7 The Soul / Spirit in Man is also immortal. The paradox of an immortal entity (Individuality -- Higher Mind) living many lives in a transitory physical body (personality -- Lower Mind) is the subject of Theosophical and Universal psychology. Religions (as established organizations) have deliberately obscured this fact.=20 8 The laws of communal living (called ethics and morals) are also, at base, an expression of the eternal and immutable laws of justice, honesty, and brotherhood. 9 All Religions and Sciences are an expression of immutable and eternal truths -- explained in various ways to many communities -- but on careful examination and comparison, they will be seen to contain identical truths about the whole of Life and the purpose of the Universe.=20 10 The goal of Universal evolution is to achieve for every one of its multitude of units, a perfection of knowledge embracing all aspects of existence. It has no favorites, but all achieve levels of perfection according to the efforts they exert. An expression of this fact is: "An atom becomes a molecule, a molecule a stone, a stone becomes a plant, a plant an animal, an animal a Man, and Man a GOD -- when has anyone lost an power by such alterations?"=20 In short any "power" individually attained, is to be kept unused until others need it. It may not be employed selfishly for any personal advantage= . It ought to be clear that no "power" is entrusted to any individuals, eithe= r in or out of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY, until they have proved to Nature tha= t they are "harmless" to others in all circumstances. THEOSOPHY as a philosophy and science, is a universal statement of facts. It is for everyone in the world and universe. In our present era. its primary exponents: The Masters, HPB and W. Q. Judge make this clear in all they wrote. Their writings are available for all to study. One might repeat:=20=20 THEOSOPHY, is not a creed or dogma invented by theologians, by fallible men= , but ANCIENT and UNIVERSAL KNOWLEDGE. It is the cumulative testimony of an innumerable, endless series of Seers. [S D I 272-3] It is not a religion, not a creed nor does it have dogmas. It is not built on anything but that ancient foundation upon which every one of the religions of the world have been based. Concerning the MASTERS, the Knowers of the Wisdom of the Universe, We find = H P B wrote:=20=20 "Their spiritual visions, real explorations by, and through, physical and spiritual senses untrammeled by blind flesh, were systematically checked an= d compared one with the other, and their nature sifted. All that was not corroborated by unanimous and collective experience was rejected, while tha= t only was recorded as established truth which, in various ages, under different climes, and throughout an untold series of incessant observations= , was found to agree and receive constantly further corroboration." [Key, p. 85] "Let no man set up a popery instead of Theosophy, as this would be suicidal and has ever ended most fatally" has been the plea of H.P.B. to students. ("Five Messages to American Theosophists" from H. P. Blavatsky. First Message).=20 =20 Students are invited to seek for and make their own in-depth study for of all the keys H.P.B. gives out in her books: ISIS UNVEILED, SECRET DOCTRINE= , and other of her numerous articles pertaining to the roots of Christianity, the pagan origins of Church rituals and dogmas. Of those Keys, we might mention: the Anthropological, Mystical, Historical, Astrological, Astronomical, Metaphysical, Cosmogonical, Psychical, Physiological, Numerical, Ethnological Keys she has furnished in respect to both Old and New Testaments, especially, the Book of Genesis, the Gospels and the Revelations, and some Kabalistic texts. Best wishes. Dallas =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: robert searle=20 Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:32 PM To:=20 Subject: The Question of Power. Dear All, The problem of power and who takes it is not something limited to the errings of certain careerist Theosophists but can also be found in gurudom....and indeed, in many other walks of life.=20 CUT From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Dec 05 10:10:05 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49188 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2004 18:10:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Dec 2004 18:10:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.32) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 2004 18:10:04 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n15.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Dec 2004 18:10:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.124] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Dec 2004 18:10:00 -0000 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:09:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 190 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.32 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Controversies Surrounding Mme. Blavatsky & Theosophy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Controversies Surrounding Madame Blavatsky's Work & the Teachings of Theosophy See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/hpbcontro.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER http://hpb.cc From rajputks@hotmail.com Sun Dec 05 12:39:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 65110 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2004 20:39:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Dec 2004 20:39:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.28) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 2004 20:39:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n14.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Dec 2004 20:36:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.177] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Dec 2004 20:36:56 -0000 X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 56685 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2004 17:30:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Dec 2004 17:30:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.53.87) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 2004 17:30:01 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 5 Dec 2004 09:30:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 210.214.134.9 by by19fd.bay19.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:29:17 GMT X-Originating-Email: [rajputks@hotmail.com] X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 22:59:17 +0530 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Dec 2004 17:30:01.0230 (UTC) FILETIME=[0CA40AE0:01C4DAF0] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.4.53.87 From: "Kamal Singh Rajput" X-Originating-IP: [210.214.134.9] Subject: My Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206765605 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 05 Dec 2004 20:36:35 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.28 Dear Sir, I am a professor of Physics. I have been studying theosophy since school days. I have also been a member of Theosophical Lodge at Tikamgarhabout 32 years back. In Physics, I have worked in Quantum Mechanics, Relativity and Plasma Physics. In Theosophy, I have worked in rthe projection of Astral Body. I have been in interested in Yoga and Meditation as well. I have studied almost all the four vedas, Geeta, Valmiki Ramayan, Shri MadBhagwat etc. I shall be thankful, if you accept me as an active member of the group. Sincerely yours ...Kamal-S-Rajput... _________________________________________________________________ Microsoft’s festive bonanza! Buy a branded Home PC. http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/festivebonanza/ Win a fabulous holiday! From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Dec 05 12:47:54 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7327 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2004 20:47:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Dec 2004 20:47:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 2004 20:47:53 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.75] (helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Cb3IN-0007lM-TA for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 20:47:52 +0000 Message-ID: <41B3746F.2090104@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 15:49:51 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <1e4.2f921603.2ee1a51b@cs.com> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on omega.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.125 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World re teachings/Masters today and in ancient Egypt, South America and ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn samblo@cs.com wrote, in part: > Mauri, > Thanks for your comments. In the UFO case years ago Viracocha was > referred to as "Ticci Viracocha" having the same tradition you relate from > Graham Handcock's book. The Nasca Culture was recent comparatively, A.D., Maria > Reich spent most of her life in situ documenting the Nasca lines and figures > which are of a distinctly different type than the more recent Crop Circles. Partly, the following appeared on BN Study in response to issues raised by this general topic. I've been under the impression that humans and elementals might, under certain circumstances, enter into certain co-operative efforts, but that elementals, on their own, might not be capable of producing typical crop circles, eg. As for "more important things to do" re Masters, I suspect that they would tend to have their hands tied, in effect, by karma, so that (possibly ...) their efforts to help might be somewhat limited to various kinds of influences that would not be counter to karmic allowances. Of course I don't know whether from the perspective of Masters (per linages such as KH and M, eg ...) the production of typical crop circles for the purpose of affecting humankind, in whatever sense, would be within karmic allowances (ie, whether such circles are interpreted/reacted-to subliminally or otherwise). I wonder if the Nazca lines might be much older than suggested by the orthodox view. At any rate, the Nazca plain certainly seems ideal for those kinds of lines and pictures if one wanted them to last for a very long time, seems to me. Of course the Nazca lines are different than today's crop circles, but so are people today generally different, (aren't they ...), so taking into account (possible considerations re karma and applicablility ...) in today's terms ... Anyway, the way I tend to see it, the numerous, complex, very large crop circles that are appearing year after year in numerous countries might, eventually, make some sort of dent in the general trend (especially in the States ...) towards dumbing down and corporatizing. I mean, couldn't one suspect that, sooner or later, the dumbed down corporate zombies (or person's influenced by and joining the general trend towards dumbing down and corporatization ...) might tend to run out of creative and dumbed-down/corporatized explanations for the crop circles (wouldn't one expect ...)---ie, when/if they ever run out of excuses to ignore them in the first place. Speculatively, Mauri From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Dec 05 15:43:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33730 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2004 23:43:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Dec 2004 23:43:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.122) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 2004 23:43:06 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.63] (helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Cb61x-0000Lu-2Z for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 23:43:05 +0000 Message-ID: <41B39D86.8000101@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:45:10 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on phi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-98.4 required=9.0 tests=DEAR_SOMETHING, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.122 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World My Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Kamal Singh Rajput wrote: > > Dear Sir, > I am a professor of Physics. I have been studying theosophy since school > days. I have also been a member of Theosophical Lodge at Tikamgarhabout 32 > years back. In Physics, I have worked in Quantum Mechanics, Relativity and > Plasma Physics. In Theosophy, I have worked in rthe projection of Astral > Body. I have been in interested in Yoga and Meditation as well. I have > studied almost all the four vedas, Geeta, Valmiki Ramayan, Shri MadBhagwat > etc. I shall be thankful, if you accept me as an active member of the group. > Sincerely yours > > ...Kamal-S-Rajput... Welcome. Looking forward to your input. Not that I'm "Sir," exactly, but ... If that post was intended for a particular "Sir," my apologies for jumping in. ^:-/ Mauri PS that's my symbol for a confused and speculative guy who thought he might've had something important enough to say but wound up scratching his head. But, not to worry, Kamal-S-Rajput, lots of people on this are (or might be generally considered to be, even by themselves, maybe ...) far less confused and speculative than myself. ^:-) From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sun Dec 05 16:11:43 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 81357 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 00:11:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 00:11:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.12) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 00:11:40 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.97.101]) by mta2.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 21846727 for ; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:10:26 -0600 CST Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20041205181019.04559280@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:12:15 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 69.9.90.12 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World My Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In this maillist everyone interested in theosophy is welcome. We all would be looking for your participating in various issues discussed here. mkr At 10:59 PM 12/05/04 +0530, Kamal Singh Rajput wrote: > I shall be thankful, if you accept me as an active member of the group. >Sincerely yours > >...Kamal-S-Rajput... ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.799 / Virus Database: 543 - Release Date: 11/19/04 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Dec 05 17:24:27 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 29795 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 01:24:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 01:24:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 01:24:26 -0000 Received: from [209.179.152.82] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cb7bs-0006y6-RX; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 20:24:24 -0500 To: "'Koshek S.'" Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 17:24:07 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c4db32$4d7d46c0$5298b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <20041201085924.63958.qmail@web14610.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79f26fe88316c7735a1ecb94bd0903037c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.152.82 Subject: RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 5 2004 =93THEOSOPHIST IS WHO THEOSOPHY DOES.=94 "THEOSOPHY IS ALTRUISM IN THOUGHT AND DEED." "THE SOLE AUTHORITY FOR MAN IS HIS OWN ATMA -- THE HIGHER SELF." Dear Friends: This is a summary of what HPB wrote in: WHAT ARE THE THEOSOPHISTS? -- by H. P. Blavatsky Are they what they claim to be--students of natural law, of ancient and modern philosophy, and even of exact science? Are they Deists, Atheists, Socialists, Materialists, or Idealists; or are they but a schism of modern Spiritualism,--mere visionaries? Are they entitled to any consideration, as capable of discussing philosophy and promoting real science; or should they be treated with the compassionate toleration which one gives to "harmless enthusiasts"?=20 Men slander only those whom they hate--or fear.=20 Holding this country [India], as we do, for the fruitful hot-bed whence proceeded all subsequent philosophical systems, to this source of all psychology and philosophy=20 The line of philosophical heredity, from Kapila through Epicurus to James Mill; from Patanjali through Plotinus to Jacob Boehme, can be traced like the course of a river through a landscape.=20 T S OBJECTS =85one of our objects, =91=92=92[is] to revive the work of Ammonius Saccas,= and make various nations remember that they are the children "of one mother." [Eclectic Theosophy of the 3rd Century in Alexandria, Egypt. see =93Key t= o Theosophy,=94 p. 3-5, 39] With how much, then, of this nature-searching, God-seeking science of the ancient Aryan and Greek mystics, and of the powers of modern spiritual mediumship, does the Society agree? Our answer is: WITH IT ALL.=20 BELIEFS ? But if asked what it believes in, the reply will be: "AS A BODY--NOTHING."= =20 The Society, as a body, has no creed, as creeds are but the shells around spiritual knowledge; and Theosophy in its fruition is spiritual knowledge itself--the very essence of philosophical and theistic enquiry.=20 The religion of the Society is an algebraical equation, in which so long as the sign =3D of equality is not omitted, each member is allowed to substitu= te quantities of his own, which better accord with climatic and other exigencies of his native land, with the idiosyncrasies of his people, or even with his own.=20 Having no accepted creed, our Society is very ready to give and take, to learn and teach, by practical experimentation, as opposed to mere passive and credulous acceptance of enforced dogma.=20 It is willing to accept every result claimed by any of the foregoing school= s or systems, that can be logically and experimentally demonstrated. Conversely, it can take nothing on mere faith, no matter by whom the demand may be made.=20 THEOSOPHISTS ARE :=20 The Society's members represent the most varied nationalities and races, an= d were born and educated in the most dissimilar creeds and social conditions. Some of them believe in one thing, others in another. Some incline towards the ancient magic, or secret wisdom that was taught in the sanctuaries, which was the very opposite of supernaturalism or diabolism; others in modern spiritualism, or intercourse with the spirits of the dead; still others in mesmerism or animal magnetism, or only an occult dynamic force in nature. A certain number have scarcely yet acquired any definite belief, bu= t are in a state of attentive expectancy; and there are even those who call themselves materialists, in a certain sense.=20 Of atheists and bigoted sectarians of any religion, there are none in the Society; for the very fact of a man's joining it proves that he is in searc= h of the final truth as to the ultimate essence of things.=20 ATHEISM If there be such a thing as a speculative atheist, which philosophers may deny, he would have to reject both cause and effect, whether in this world of matter, or in that of spirit=85But even they are not atheist in the speculative sense, whether they identify the material forces of the univers= e with the functions with which the theists endow their God, or otherwise; fo= r once that they cannot free themselves from the conception of the abstract ideal of power, cause, necessity, and effect, they can be considered as atheists only in respect to a Personal God, and not to the Universal Soul o= f the Pantheist.=20 On the other hand the bigoted sectarian, fenced in, as he is, with a creed upon every paling of which is written the warning "No Thoroughfare," can neither come out of his enclosure to join the Theosophical Society, nor, if he could, has it room for one whose very religion forbids examination.=20 THE VERY ROOT IDEA OF THE SOCIETY IS FREE AND FEARLESS INVESTIGATION.=20 As a body, the Theosophical Society holds that all original thinkers and investigators of the hidden side of nature whether materialists--those who find in matter "the promise and potency of all terrestrial life," or spiritualists--that is, those who discover in spirit the source of all energy and of matter as well, were and are, properly, Theosophists.=20 For to be one, one need not necessarily recognize the existence of any special God or a deity.=20 One need but worship the spirit of living nature, and try to identify oneself with it. To revere that Presence, the invisible Cause, which is yet ever manifesting itself in its incessant results; the intangible, omnipotent, and omnipresent Proteus: indivisible in its Essence, and eludin= g form, yet appearing under all and every form; who is here and there, and everywhere and nowhere; is ALL, and NOTHING; ubiquitous yet one; the Essenc= e filling, binding, bounding, containing everything, contained in all. It will, we think, be seen now, that whether classed as Theists, Pantheists or Atheists, such men are near kinsmen to the rest. Be what he may,=20 =85once that a student abandons the old and trodden highway of routine, and enters upon the solitary path of independent thought--Godward--he is a Theosophist; an original thinker, a seeker after the eternal truth with "an inspiration of his own" to solve the universal problems.=20 With every man that is earnestly searching in his own way after a knowledge of the Divine Principle, of man's relations to it, and nature's manifestations of it, Theosophy is allied.=20 It is likewise the ally of honest science, as distinguished from much that passes for exact, physical science, so long as the latter does not poach on the domains of psychology and metaphysics.=20 And it is also the ally of every honest religion--to wit, a religion willin= g to be judged by the same tests as it applies to the others.=20 Those books, which contain the most self-evident truth, are to it inspired (not revealed). But all books it regards, on account of the human element contained in them, as inferior to the Book of Nature; to read which and comprehend it correctly, the innate powers of the soul must be highly developed. Ideal laws can be perceived by the intuitive faculty alone; they are beyond the domain of argument and dialectics, and no one can understand or rightly appreciate them through the explanations of another mind, even though this mind be claiming a direct revelation.=20 ORIENTALISM And it is also due to the unremitting labors of such Orientalists as Sir W. Jones, Max M=FCller, Burnouf, Colebrooke, Haug, St. Hilaire, and so many others, that the Society, as a body, feels equal respect and veneration for Vedic, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, and other old religions of the world; and, a like brotherly feeling toward its Hindu, Sinhalese, Parsi, Jain, Hebrew, an= d Christian members as individual students of "self," of nature, and of the divine in nature.=20 T S CONSTITUTION Born in the United States of America, the Society was constituted on the model of its Mother Land. The latter, omitting the name of God from its constitution lest it should afford a pretext one day to make a state religion, gives absolute equality to all religions in its laws... The Society, modelled upon this constitution, may fairly be termed a "Republic of Conscience."=20 MEMBERS OF THE T S We have now, we think, made clear why our members, as individuals, are free to stay outside or inside any creed they please, provided they do not pretend that none but themselves shall enjoy the privilege of conscience, and try to force their opinions upon the others.=20 In this respect the Rules of the Society are very strict:=20 It tries to act upon the wisdom of the old Buddhistic axiom, "Honour thine own faith, and do not slander that of others"; echoed back in our present century, in the "Declaration of Principles" of the Brahmo Samaj, which so nobly states that: "no sect shall be vilified, ridiculed, or hated."=20 RULE: It is not lawful for any officer of the Parent Society to express, by word or act, any hostility to, or preference for, any one section (sectarian division, or group within the Society) more than another= . All must be regarded and treated as equally the objects of the Society's solicitude and exertions. All have an equal right to have the essential features of their religious belief laid before the tribunal of an impartial world.=20 In their individual capacity, members may, when attacked, occasionally brea= k this Rule, but, nevertheless, as officers they are restrained, and the Rule is strictly enforced during the meetings. FOR, ABOVE ALL HUMAN SECTS STANDS THEOSOPHY IN ITS ABSTRACT SENSE; THEOSOPH= Y WHICH IS TOO WIDE FOR ANY OF THEM TO CONTAIN, BUT WHICH EASILY CONTAINS THEM.=20 =85we may state that [the T S], broader and far more universal in its views than any existing mere scientific Society, it has, plus science, its belief in every possibility, and determined will to penetrate into those unknown spiritual regions which exact science pretends that its votaries have no business to explore. UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD And, it has one quality more than any religion in that it makes no difference between Gentile, Jew, or Christian. It is in this spirit that th= e Society has been established upon the footing of a UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD.=20 UNCONCERNED ABOUT POLITICS; HOSTILE TO THE INSANE DREAMS OF SOCIALISM AND OF COMMUNISM, WHICH IT ABHORS... THE SOCIETY CARES BUT LITTLE ABOUT THE OUTWARD HUMAN MANAGEMENT OF THE MATERIAL WORLD.=20 The whole of its aspirations are directed towards the occult truths of the visible and invisible worlds.=20 Whether the physical man be under the rule of an empire or a republic, concerns only the man of matter=85They have no sway over the inner man.=20 The true student has ever been a recluse, a man of silence and meditation. With the busy world his habits and tastes are so little in common that, while he is studying, his enemies and slanderers have undisturbed opportunities. But time cures all and lies are but ephemera. Truth alone is eternal.=20 One man's thought, infinitely various as are its manifestations, is not all-embracing.=20 Denied ubiquity, it must necessarily speculate but in one direction; and once transcending the boundaries of exact human knowledge, it has to err an= d wander, for the ramifications of the one Central and absolute Truth are infinite.=20 PHILOSOPHY But as all work for one and the same object, namely, the disenthralment of human thought, the elimination of superstitions, and the discovery of truth= , all are equally welcome.=20 The attainment of these objects, all agree, can best be secured by convincing the reason and warming the enthusiasm of the generation of fresh young minds=85And, as each--the great ones as well as small--have trodden t= he royal road to knowledge, we listen to all, and take both small and great into our fellowship. For no honest searcher comes back empty-handed, and even he who has enjoyed the least share of popular favor can lay at least his mite upon the one altar of Truth.=20 - HPB THEOSOPHIST, October, 1879=20 ----------------------------------------------------- =93THEOSOPHIST IS WHO THEOSOPHY DOES.=94 Key =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D AUTHORITY HPB AS AN "AUTHORITY" HPB does not claim "authority." She claims to be a "messenger." Specifically a messenger from the Great and Ancient Lodge of ADEPTS.=20=20 =20 In both ISIS UNVEILED and The SECRET DOCTRINE she disclaims any personal authority and gives the credit for the records she transmits to the real authors, the Mahatmas. Since she was well aware that the Theosophical theories and hypotheses woul= d be received with various degrees of incredulity from the academies, she was careful to make it clear that the information was in reality taken from the HISTORY that the Adepts and their disciples (chelas) had recorded down the ages. All that she requested was "equal time" and open consideration of what Theosophy had to offer. [ S D I 272 - 300 ] =20 This suggests that THEOSOPHY is not a new fangled system of collated ideas drawn from many sources -- in fact if it were even that, then the marvel is of HPB's mind. And, her capacity in drawing such a vast diversity together and showing how the many pieces hung together to form a seamless whole in the world of ideas and concepts. In many student's experience and wide reading, there is no one who has written such a comprehensive view of our world, the organization of the universe, on the spiritual, intellectual an= d psychological basis, and the part that Mankind plays in that. =20 The immortality of man's Spirit / Soul and the "God-spirit" (the Universal DEIFIC ESSENCE), being present in every "life-atom" of our LIVING UNIVERSE, are fundamental concepts.=20=20 Everything in Nature trends in its life-experience towards a higher degree of knowledge, wisdom, and perfection. Each life-cycle (incarnation) is lik= e a separate day at school and all are drawn together by the uniting thread o= f the immortal, and eternal spiritual Self which is at their core. In fact she shows how Theosophy traces the evolution of the "consciousness and intelligence" of the SPIRITUAL SOUL or Monad, through many forms -- from th= e atom to the human condition of independent free-will. As below, so above -= - said the wise Hermes. The Atom and the Universe correspond in structure, movement and objectives. They are integrated into one vast brotherhood of sensitive and inter-protective laws. The great and the "small" are mutuall= y dependent. "Spirit" cannot exist without "matter." Eternal Mind -- is the witness to all progress and life. This sweep and concept is one that can be traced in every one of the great religions and philosophies of the world. It is the record of their existence, of their common source, and of our participation, again and again, in those processes.=20=20 =20 Currently there is debate as to whether Theosophy has its roots in Buddhism= , Hinduism, Jainism, etc... And the place of Judaism, Kabala, Islam and Sufism is debated and considered in many ways. The question is always asked: 'Does knowledge, wisdom, and action have limits?" The Universe stands as evidence that they not only do, b out that the inter-relationship which permits diversified "life," is as ancient as Science and philosophy are able to trace. It is understood that scholars who are deeply familiar with those systems and their development can trace the evidence and the pathways of the development of similarities in observation and thought. However, HPB claim= s on behalf of the great and ancient Lodge of Adepts, that all those were derived from the "Sanatana Dharma," the "Perennial Philosophy." which is a record of Life's development and history which they have observed and left records of.. [ ISIS UNVEILED Vol. 2, pp 98-105. ] Modern "Theosophy" [the Wisdom of the Deity] claims to expose the outlines of this system and trace= s these facts everywhere in the world, and in the records of history on all continents. =20 As such Theosophy claims to be at the root and at the origin of all the great ancient religio-philosophical systems and provides a reason for their development as systems of practice leading to that kind of "initiation" which develops Wisdom in thought and mind as well as simultaneously the application of compassion and harmlessness in motive. Thus, Theosophy, is not exclusively religion, or philosophy but also includes science -- it is the power to investigate and record the workings of NATURE (Life as a Whole) in every stage and department of the world and our Universe. =20 The sweep of the ever-present immortal Life, through cycles of evolution lead at last to the "all-Knowingness" of the PERFECTED MAN. The designatio= n "Mahatma" (Great Soul) is one that includes all such self-developed men of superior knowledge and nature. It is held that every single "monad" in our world, and our Universe is destined to eventually enter the human stage of "freedom to think." From there on, as we, humans can, the power to develop further is placed squarely in our hands. The current test of humanity is? will it dare to assume the responsibility? Will it follow Hermes' other injunction: " Man, Know Thyself."=20 The SECRET DOCTRINE therefore speaks of those great Initiates, the "Fathers= " and the "Guardians" of wisdom, as the intelligent guides, and assistants that Nature employs to assist every fresh evolutionary effort, a "new Day" of intelligent development and progress -- open without exceptions to all beings. =20 If this is grasped the minute details and studies of specialists, while respected, as continuing proof of the inclusive nature of Theosophy, is als= o shown to be but the outer covering, to be but one way to approach to the interior mystery of man's own mind, and its almost infinite capacities. = =20 =20 If this infinite capacity of the human mind to grow and to understand the most simple, as well as the most complex subjects is grasped, the more learned will continually encourage the learners to investigate and prove fo= r themselves all avenues, however diverse, of information, tradition and lore= . And that is the always growing tip of the self-enlightening Mind. It alway= s widens out to that which is permanent and universal, when given a chance to emerge from ignorance, doubt, skepticism and lethargy. =20 Theosophy shows us that the real energizers are OURSELVES. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Koshek=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 12:59 AM To:=20 Subject: RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS =A0 I've been thinking about those questions for some time. Even though it is explained in Key to Theosophy, I still wonder "Who is a theosophist?" =A0 If you remember, HPB says that membership in the Theosophical Society does not make one a theosophist, and furthermore, most members are not.=20 She goes on to say that there are many theosophists, more than there are theosophists who are members in the Theosophical Society. (Section 2, page 20 in my addition.) Since I assume that a member of the Theosophical Society is most likely studying the Ancient Wisdom, perhaps study does not make one a theosophist?= =20 At the same time, a complete altruist may know nothing of the Ancient Wisdom, so the question arises - how can he be a true theosophist?=20 =A0 Does altruism naturally lead to theosophy? =A0 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D =A0 Another question that also comes to mind is that of AUTHORITY.=20 My own introspection leads me to the following conclusion. We first must listen before we can think. During the listening phase, when information is being passed on, doesn't the granter of that wisdom become an authority? This is why when we have faith in the Masters, as HPB says is pre-requisite to getting the teachings, our cup is empty so to speak and we listen withou= t criticism. Then there is the second phase, which is thinking about the teaching. This is when we should be critical of what we have received, and wrestle with the concepts and see if it fits reason. At this second phase, it's best you=A0do not consider authority, not even of the Master's themselves.=20 =A0 So my conclusion is, considering AUTHORITY depends on which phase of the process you are in, receiving or thinking. =A0 Perhaps this resolves the apparent contradiction in the words of HPB and th= e Masters on AUTHORITY and DOUBT. This is my guess. =A0 Koshek =A0 From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Dec 05 17:24:50 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65308 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 01:24:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 01:24:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 01:24:46 -0000 Received: from [209.179.152.82] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cb7c8-0006y6-G9; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 20:24:39 -0500 To: Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 17:24:07 -0800 Message-ID: <000101c4db32$56b5a890$5298b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79c52a5e36f05cc31923f5adff01506610350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.152.82 Subject: RE: [bn-study] THAT LOVE X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 5 2004 Question: I am getting confused. I was told 'THAT' was the knowable 'NOT THAT' was the unknowable Does SAT refer to "THAT" (knowable) or to 'NOT THAT" (the unknowable)? Even the Masters do not understand 'NOT THAT' DTB Do you have an exact statement from Them on this?=09 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ABSOLUTE - UNIVERSAL SPIRIT ? HPB SAID: Fundamentally there is ONE BEING. [SAT or THAT] This Being has two aspects, positive and negative. [Hence the MONADS, in Sanskrit philosophy we have Sat and A-Sat.=20 The positive is Spirit, or CONSCIOUSNESS. The negative is SUBSTANCE, [and i= t is] the subject of consciousness.=20 This Being is the Absolute [THAT] in its primary manifestation. Being ABSOLUTE there is nothing outside it. It is All-Being. It is indivisible, else it would not be absolute.=20 If a portion could be separated, that remaining could not be absolute, because there would at once arise the question of COMPARISON between it and the separated part. Comparison is incompatible with any idea of absoluteness. Therefore it is clear that this fundamental One Existence, or Absolute Being must be the Reality in every form there is. ... (a) The FUNDAMENTAL UNITY OF ALL EXISTENCE. This unity is a thing altogether different from the common notion of unity -- as when we say that a nation or an army is united; or that this planet is united to that by lines of magnetic force or the like. The teaching is not that. It is that existence is ONE THING, not any collection of things linked together.=20 "Theosophy," she said, "is for those who can think, or for those who can drive themselves to think, not mental sluggards." H.P.B. has grown very mil= d of late. "Dumskulls!" used to be her name for the average student.=20 =20 4 Fundamental Ideas Given by HPB=20 (a)The Atom, the Man, the God (she says) are each separately, as well as al= l collectively, Absolute Being in their last analysis, that is their REAL INDIVIDUALITY.=20 It is this idea which must be held always in the background of the mind to form the basis for every conception that arises from study of the S.D. The moment one lets it go (and it is most easy to do so when engaged in any of the many intricate aspects of the Esoteric Philosophy) the idea of SEPARATION supervenes, and the study loses its value.=20=20=20 (b) The second idea to hold fast to is that THERE IS NO DEAD MATTER. Every last atom is alive. It cannot be otherwise since every atom is itself fundamentally Absolute Being.=20 Therefore there is no such thing as "spaces" of Ether, or Akasha, or call i= t what you like, in which "angels and elementals" disport themselves like trout in water. That's the common idea. The true idea shows every atom of substance no matter of what plane to be in itself a LIFE.=20 (c) The third basic idea to be held is that Man is the MICROCOSM.=20 As he is so, then all the Hierarchies of the Heavens exist within him. But in truth there is neither Macrocosm nor Microcosm but ONE EXISTENCE. Great and small are such only as viewed by a limited consciousness [which makes such distinctions].=20 (d) Fourth and last basic idea to be held is that expressed in the Great Hermetic Axiom.=20 "As is the Inner, so is the Outer; as is the Great so is the Small; as it i= s above, so it is below; there is but One Life and Law; and he that worketh i= t is ONE. Nothing is Inner, nothing is Outer; nothing is Great, nothing is Small; nothing is High, nothing is Low, in the Divine Economy. " It really sums up and synthesizes all the others.=20 No matter what one takes as study in the S.D. one must correlate it with those basic ideas." P. G . Bowen =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D 2 Another view: Why not use the idea of UNIVERSAL SPIRIT for that which in religions has been designated "God?"=20=20 It is UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD {or LOVE} as a living fact. It has always been there and will continue to be there, and we will always be in and with IT. Its beginnings (and ours) are of the same duration, and that cannot be measured in terms of whet we call time, distance or motion. Call it a sublime IDEA. And its manifestations (including ourselves) are immortals, deathless, always the all-pervading, correlative MONADS. They fill the infinitudes of SPACE.=20 They are the Eternal Pilgrims -- our MINDS and our SPIRIT. Some of these concepts can appeal to us and we can then use them as avenues of thought to universalize our concept of IT, and those will cause us to see it first in ourselves as our dearest friend, and closest tutor, and then, if we reach out to the radiance in everything, we will sense it in a daisy, the Sun, our friends and family, in a grain of sand or a cloud, in roaring fire or tinkling brook - wherever we may project or stretch our minds-there LIFE IS. Than if we see "God" everywhere, who are we to change or destroy the natura= l system of either that Presence or its Manifestation?=20 Are we to assume with incomplete knowledge, the position of tyrants or oppressors ? If we think God is all-knowledge, then we can never be far from IT. It is the immortal HIGHER SELF [call it the MASTER] within each o= f us. Nor can we 'escape' from the consequences of our choices. There is an old hymn or verse that says this:=20=20 =20=20 "Never was I not, never was I not." Never will I cease to be. Never the Spirit was IT not, Beginnings and ends are but dreams." =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Can we emerge from Materialism? How often in framing our concepts do we rely on our education, or on the religious concepts we were taught as children? Almost all the time.=20=20 At what point do we begin to question some of the basics that were given to us as facts and truths, and which we later find to be only hypotheses?=20=20 What is an atom, what makes it move?=20=20 What is electricity, magnetism, light? What causes these, and why are they always described in terms of their effects and not in terms of their actual causes ? True, that for our present Western frame of mind (as well as often in the East) the term "God" is employed to designate a Power which we hope we may turn to our help by some method of worship or propitiation.=20=20 How can we imagine that this might be done solely for us, when we also know in our hearts that its 'love' includes our whole world with all its differences ?=20=20 How can we reasonably imagine a whole Galaxy, that is still mainly unexplored and unknown to us, treat us in a private, or in some special way ? How can we delve into our own psyche and mind - still largely, not in our control? What have we ? Blind alleys, or horizons of hope and encouragement to widen our range of understanding? Then comes the death of the physical body. Is all lost, or is there a continuance? What is the purpose of so complex, and rather vague, situation? What evidence can we assemble to prove or disprove the Theosophical propositions about the nature of the Universe and our role as humans in it? Perhaps it is well that there is no finality and that our curiosity is left with an open field in which to grow, to ever grow? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D HPB on STUDYING the S.D. (BOWEN) =09=09=09 Since most of the quotes that we will discuss come from SD, I hope the following extracts from Robert Bowen's notes of personal teachings given by H.P.B. to private pupils during the years 1888 to 1891 on how to study SD may be of some help. "At last we have managed to get H.P.B. to put us right on the matter of the study of the S.D. Let me get it down while it is all fresh in mind. Reading the S.D. page by page as one reads any other book (she says) will only end us in confusion. The first thing to do, even if it takes years, is to get some grasp of the "Three Fundamental Principles" given in the Proem. Follow that up by study of the Recapitulation -- the numbered items in the Summing Up to Vol. I. (Part 1.). Then take the Preliminary Notes (Vol. II.) and the Conclusion (Vol. II.)......=20 She talked a good deal about the "Fundamental Principle." She says: If one imagines that one is going to get a satisfactory picture of the constitutio= n of the Universe from the S.D. one will get only confusion from its study. I= t is not meant to give any such final verdict on existence, but to LEAD TOWARDS THE TRUTH. She repeated this latter expression many times.=20=20 It is worse than useless going to those whom we imagine to be advanced students (she said) and asking them to give us an "interpretation" of the S.D. They cannot do it. If they try, all they give are cut and dried exoteric renderings which do not remotely resemble the Truth. To accept suc= h interpretation means anchoring ourselves to fixed ideas, whereas Truth lies beyond any ideas we can formulate or express. Exoteric interpretations are all very well, and she does not condemn them s= o long as they are taken as pointers for beginners, and are not accepted by them as anything more. Many persons who are in, or who will in the future b= e in the T.S. are of course potentially incapable of any advance beyond the range of a common exoteric conception. But there are, and will be others, and for them she sets out the following and true way of approach to the S.D= . Come to the S.D. (she says) without any hope of getting the final Truth of existence from it, or with any idea other than seeing how far it may lead TOWARDS the Truth. See in study a means of exercising and developing the mind never touched by other studies. Observe the following rules:=20 1. No matter what one may study in the S.D. let the mind hold fast, as the basis of its ideation to the following ideas=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 4. Why should Manifestation Occur ? Why does SPIRIT undergo the evolutionary process.=20=20 Basically it would seem so that: "IT should know Itself." This implies a vast all-encompassing love and understanding of the rights and privileges o= f all beings. They are all eternal MONADS. Each is at its own proper designated stage of progress. They are a band of brothers. Logic:=20=20 SPIRIT by itself is UNCONSCIOUS - UNIVERSAL - without contrast.=20=20 Evolutionary law (KARMA) provides periodically the contrast of MATTER in an evolutionary Manvantara such as we are now involved in. [ Karma: as the endless "pulsing" of unconscious Life, which is perceived by "the opened ey= e of the Dangma" (the perception of the WISE)--SECRET DOCTRINE I 27 Verse 8.] SPIRIT emanates aspects of itself - "Rays or Sparks" - which appear simultaneously with "MATTER" of a refined and "primordial type" [Mulaprakriti or Mahabuddhi].=20=20 Also, simultaneously arises the POWER TO PERCEIVE, or UNIVERSAL MIND-MAHAT. [ Primordial matter is also named "Mulaprakriti" and "Mahabuddhi." ] The "Rays" invested with "matter" or MAHA-BUDDHI (Wisdom derived from experience), pass as individual MONADS [Atma-Buddhi-Manas], through all the planes and spheres of manifestation and eventually find themselves as individual Men-Minds on this, the grossest, most material of the planes [like our Earth experience at present]. The SD describes this process starting SD Vol. I, p. 152. The OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY covers this in brief in Chapters 2, 3, 4, and 14, 15, if a synopsis is desired. If one is asking for a FIRST CAUSE, [SD I 14-5 214 342 426] you will be disappointed because there is none of a "material" kind.=20 In terms of metaphysics, HPB hints in the SD that it is the CAUSELESS CAUSE= , [SD I 9-10 14-5 55 89 273 280 II 589 ] and it is indescribable in our material, physical terms and thoughts. What then remains for us to un-puzzle our minds? Only the fact that we are here. The fact that we are now, at this very moment, questioning is highly significant.=20=20 In THE SECRET DOCTRINE we are given one of the most comprehensive "keys" to the great seven-fold puzzle. This 7-fold mystery stretches between the pola= r opposites of Spirit and Matter, and employs the Mind which is mid-way between and independent of them, to note and record all their interactions in terms of time, space and motion. In effect we are told: "Man know thyself." [see S D I 157-8; II 596 ] Since we are also 7-fold, each one of our principles, when ultimately refined and brought under control opens the corresponding "lock" of great nature. Man is the "Microcosm" of the "Macrocosm" and contains in himself, in miniature, every power and force that the Universe has.=20 He has to understand these, where they come from and how they are used, but= , the power to employ the secret laws and powers of nature are not entrusted to him by the WISE who hold the final "secrets," until he has become completely HARMLESS to himself and to Nature around him.=20=20 This is Universal Love for all beings. The practice of "brotherhood" is the opening aspect of the discipline that leads to individual "success" and to ultimate Wisdom (or the practice of benevolence as a force that is employed only for the good of others). By the fact that in any one evolutionary period a mass of minds independently and cooperatively achieve the highest illumination into the nature of SPIRIT and the UNIVERSE, to that extent SPIRIT GETS TO KNOW ITSELF.=20=20 It becomes progressively SELF-CONSCIOUS.=20 Thus the human stage is an essential component of the evolutionary process and those Men-minds that become successful are entrusted with the guidance of various aspects of future evolutionary schemes and the assisting of stil= l more "minds" to become universally enlightened. Spirit may be said to get to "know itself" by the success of Minds who are wisely benevolent. As the process is continuous and eternal, evolution and progress towards spirituality (with the memory of every Egoic, individual experience in all departments of Nature stored in Akasa - the BUDDHI aspect of NATURE) the SPIRITUAL PERSON, that we are fundamentally, becomes ONE WITH THE UNIVERSAL SPIRIT. It does not, even then, loose its identity. But this merging does not annihilate or disintegrate the Individual SELF, for that continues as a conscious unit. One may say it chooses a vast an impersonal love, a compassion absolute, and then proceeds on a self-assumed mission of assistance, compassion and mercy described in the VOICE OF THE SILENCE in the last pages of the book (pp. 76-79 and the all-important footnotes there). We as humans are half-way through this vast process and work. HPB in her article ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISISHTADWAITA says: "I maintain as an occultist, on the authority of the Secret Doctrine Parabrahm, man's spirit which not individual per se, yet preserves its distinct individuality in Paranirvana owing to the accumulation in it of the aggregates, or "skandhas" that have survived after each death, from the highest faculties of the Manas. The most spiritual--i.e., the highest and divinest aspirations of every personality follow "Buddhi" and the Seventh Principle into Devachan ("Swarga") after the death of each personality along the line of rebirths, and become part and parcel of the "Monad." [HPB Articles III, p. 265.] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 5. If the "ALL" is so grand and all knowing (omnipotent and omnipresent, etc...), then why does it need to form itself into a dense, fleshly creature like ourselves to evolve?=20 It seems to me that to do so would be "un-evolving" itself (if such a word exists). Now I know that someone here is going to say, "Well, by becoming human, the "All" can experience many things on this plane, thus, adding to Its bank of knowledge."=20=20 BUT, (I say),"Why??? If It is already all- knowing???" ----------------- What a grand question. In fact, the greatest philosophers of all history have asked over and over the question as to why "God" joined soul and body together - which is a variant of your question, isn't it? HPB has written that the mystery of the "solar logos" is the greatest mystery and the most precious in all of occultism. But if the UNIVERSE is the ONE ALL-INCLUSIVE SUN," [the Paramatma], then interiorly, we have each= , our own Individual Sun: the ATMA. We have to set it free -- and only true "love" can do that.=20 Love may be seen t be at the root of all virtues -- as ideals or as practice.=20 Apparently our solar system, and the planets therein, have experienced grea= t moral and spiritual failures in the vast past. It was not only a few millions of years back, in Atlantis that men turned to wickedness, sorcery and greed, black magic and so on, but in previous solar systems, resulting in great perverted, selfish and decaying karmic residual substances in the cosmos with human "prisoners" within them, comatose or in pain. Then along comes the living and loving example of an actual living Man, who acts as the "heart of the Sun," who, as Christ, and other Saviours did, mak= e the stupendous sacrifice of selfish life, to give the hope of a spiritual essential life, and the example and opportunity for humanity to see it can work its way back home to "Paradise" again. [see S D I 207-210 ] So if you look at the billions of billions of billions of suns and the equivalent numbers of humanities, both evolved and perfected and unevolved in the vast kosmic space we see each night in the skies, it is a universal process and not only in this, a small, single portion, our own solar system that mistakenly has objectivized its "God" and demanded that it incarnate through this, which we falsely assume is the only human kingdom.=20 Mankind is the stage and plane of all redemption, the Great Savior that resides in each of us has to be given a channel through our personalities, to awaken to his true ancient agenda.=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D These are a few ideas to consider, Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: cassilva48 Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 8:33 PM To:=20 Subject: [bn-study] THAT Dear Friends I am getting confused. I was told 'THAT' was the knowable 'NOT THAT' was the unknowable Does SAT refer to "THAT" (knowable) or to 'NOT THAT" (the unknowable)? Even the Masters do not understand 'NOT THAT' CASS From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Dec 05 17:31:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6240 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 01:31:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 01:31:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40908.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.205) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 01:31:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 20157 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Dec 2004 01:31:15 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=IO9baR9hnOHyM2rXuBR/19C+J5i7nwJNbrFMErJJ4SpkxLTVEHt4TyoGjdCCEJL0yorML8cW+hgghbnQvkHzYBJJ8oi73I7bAQcQZ7Hig+C+twRM6JVvXOS09x/374+GOHC9w8r/rhh3utJzffAMSqesmzL9hGcFwmSR7r5/i2I= ; Message-ID: <20041206013115.20155.qmail@web40908.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40908.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:31:15 PST Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 17:31:15 -0800 (PST) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.78.205 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Eastern Tradition Research Institute: Concerning H.P. Blavatsky's translations from the Book of Dzyan X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Long-time students of Theosophy as well as inquirers and new students will want to be aware of a new website titled: Eastern Tradition Research Institute founded by David and Nancy Reigle See: http://easterntradition.org/ Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER http://hpb.cc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From clarity12.1@juno.com Sun Dec 05 17:35:28 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: clarity12.1@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 79653 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 01:35:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 01:35:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com) (64.136.20.164) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 01:35:27 -0000 Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail27.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.167]) by smtpout01.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABA5HP26AJKMMWJ for (sender ); Sun, 5 Dec 2004 17:34:20 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: 4ohJS0CGC59/Kp5GWNMAw5dioYqCpGgvUAesTOGDYwwflQPlPiil6A== Received: (from clarity12.1@juno.com) by webmail27.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KD5N755Y; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:33:22 PST Received: from [68.44.16.38] by webmail27.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 01:33:09 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 01:33:09 GMT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041205.173322.3529.70036@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 11:5:3126661563 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.136.20.164 From: "Regina St Clare" X-Originating-IP: [68.44.16.38] Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=178968717 X-Yahoo-Profile: stclareregina One and All, To me, the day when any one who calls himself a theosophist can actually accept the point of view of another, without defense or offense in thought, word or deed, then we will have the true spirit of what HPB, in her best intention, flaws and all, was dedicated to accomplishing. In alignment with all great world teachers, masters, et. al. we are, at best struggling to demonstrate Unity and Oneness. Actually, contention is alive and well in the ts and spiritual circles. So, as far as we have come, we have much to go, in what I call vertical development. Horizontal development is easy, just more of the same, that is in our comfort zone. And, it is often spectacular exchanges of information and insight. Who, is willing to make the Everest climb to the place when we have NO CONTENTION for which brand name or generic model of theosophy that one espouses. HAPPY HOLIDAYS ONE AND ALL... NEW YEAR IS COMING, ay it be really new and better than every before Regina -- "W.Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: Dec 5 2004 “THEOSOPHIST IS WHO THEOSOPHY DOES.” "THEOSOPHY IS ALTRUISM IN THOUGHT AND DEED." "THE SOLE AUTHORITY FOR MAN IS HIS OWN ATMA -- THE HIGHER SELF." Dear Friends: This is a summary of what HPB wrote in: WHAT ARE THE THEOSOPHISTS? -- by H. P. Blavatsky Are they what they claim to be--students of natural law, of ancient and modern philosophy, and even of exact science? Are they Deists, Atheists, Socialists, Materialists, or Idealists; or are they but a schism of modern Spiritualism,--mere visionaries? Are they entitled to any consideration, as capable of discussing philosophy and promoting real science; or should they be treated with the compassionate toleration which one gives to "harmless enthusiasts"? Men slander only those whom they hate--or fear. Holding this country [India], as we do, for the fruitful hot-bed whence proceeded all subsequent philosophical systems, to this source of all psychology and philosophy The line of philosophical heredity, from Kapila through Epicurus to James Mill; from Patanjali through Plotinus to Jacob Boehme, can be traced like the course of a river through a landscape. T S OBJECTS …one of our objects, ‘’’[is] to revive the work of Ammonius Saccas, and make various nations remember that they are the children "of one mother." [Eclectic Theosophy of the 3rd Century in Alexandria, Egypt. see “Key to Theosophy,” p. 3-5, 39] With how much, then, of this nature-searching, God-seeking science of the ancient Aryan and Greek mystics, and of the powers of modern spiritual mediumship, does the Society agree? Our answer is: WITH IT ALL. BELIEFS ? But if asked what it believes in, the reply will be: "AS A BODY--NOTHING." The Society, as a body, has no creed, as creeds are but the shells around spiritual knowledge; and Theosophy in its fruition is spiritual knowledge itself--the very essence of philosophical and theistic enquiry. The religion of the Society is an algebraical equation, in which so long as the sign = of equality is not omitted, each member is allowed to substitute quantities of his own, which better accord with climatic and other exigencies of his native land, with the idiosyncrasies of his people, or even with his own. Having no accepted creed, our Society is very ready to give and take, to learn and teach, by practical experimentation, as opposed to mere passive and credulous acceptance of enforced dogma. It is willing to accept every result claimed by any of the foregoing schools or systems, that can be logically and experimentally demonstrated. Conversely, it can take nothing on mere faith, no matter by whom the demand may be made. THEOSOPHISTS ARE : The Society's members represent the most varied nationalities and races, and were born and educated in the most dissimilar creeds and social conditions. Some of them believe in one thing, others in another. Some incline towards the ancient magic, or secret wisdom that was taught in the sanctuaries, which was the very opposite of supernaturalism or diabolism; others in modern spiritualism, or intercourse with the spirits of the dead; still others in mesmerism or animal magnetism, or only an occult dynamic force in nature. A certain number have scarcely yet acquired any definite belief, but are in a state of attentive expectancy; and there are even those who call themselves materialists, in a certain sense. Of atheists and bigoted sectarians of any religion, there are none in the Society; for the very fact of a man's joining it proves that he is in search of the final truth as to the ultimate essence of things. ATHEISM If there be such a thing as a speculative atheist, which philosophers may deny, he would have to reject both cause and effect, whether in this world of matter, or in that of spirit…But even they are not atheist in the speculative sense, whether they identify the material forces of the universe with the functions with which the theists endow their God, or otherwise; for once that they cannot free themselves from the conception of the abstract ideal of power, cause, necessity, and effect, they can be considered as atheists only in respect to a Personal God, and not to the Universal Soul of the Pantheist. On the other hand the bigoted sectarian, fenced in, as he is, with a creed upon every paling of which is written the warning "No Thoroughfare," can neither come out of his enclosure to join the Theosophical Society, nor, if he could, has it room for one whose very religion forbids examination. THE VERY ROOT IDEA OF THE SOCIETY IS FREE AND FEARLESS INVESTIGATION. As a body, the Theosophical Society holds that all original thinkers and investigators of the hidden side of nature whether materialists--those who find in matter "the promise and potency of all terrestrial life," or spiritualists--that is, those who discover in spirit the source of all energy and of matter as well, were and are, properly, Theosophists. For to be one, one need not necessarily recognize the existence of any special God or a deity. One need but worship the spirit of living nature, and try to identify oneself with it. To revere that Presence, the invisible Cause, which is yet ever manifesting itself in its incessant results; the intangible, omnipotent, and omnipresent Proteus: indivisible in its Essence, and eluding form, yet appearing under all and every form; who is here and there, and everywhere and nowhere; is ALL, and NOTHING; ubiquitous yet one; the Essence filling, binding, bounding, containing everything, contained in all. It will, we think, be seen now, that whether classed as Theists, Pantheists or Atheists, such men are near kinsmen to the rest. Be what he may, …once that a student abandons the old and trodden highway of routine, and enters upon the solitary path of independent thought--Godward--he is a Theosophist; an original thinker, a seeker after the eternal truth with "an inspiration of his own" to solve the universal problems. With every man that is earnestly searching in his own way after a knowledge of the Divine Principle, of man's relations to it, and nature's manifestations of it, Theosophy is allied. It is likewise the ally of honest science, as distinguished from much that passes for exact, physical science, so long as the latter does not poach on the domains of psychology and metaphysics. And it is also the ally of every honest religion--to wit, a religion willing to be judged by the same tests as it applies to the others. Those books, which contain the most self-evident truth, are to it inspired (not revealed). But all books it regards, on account of the human element contained in them, as inferior to the Book of Nature; to read which and comprehend it correctly, the innate powers of the soul must be highly developed. Ideal laws can be perceived by the intuitive faculty alone; they are beyond the domain of argument and dialectics, and no one can understand or rightly appreciate them through the explanations of another mind, even though this mind be claiming a direct revelation. ORIENTALISM And it is also due to the unremitting labors of such Orientalists as Sir W. Jones, Max Müller, Burnouf, Colebrooke, Haug, St. Hilaire, and so many others, that the Society, as a body, feels equal respect and veneration for Vedic, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, and other old religions of the world; and, a like brotherly feeling toward its Hindu, Sinhalese, Parsi, Jain, Hebrew, and Christian members as individual students of "self," of nature, and of the divine in nature. T S CONSTITUTION Born in the United States of America, the Society was constituted on the model of its Mother Land. The latter, omitting the name of God from its constitution lest it should afford a pretext one day to make a state religion, gives absolute equality to all religions in its laws... The Society, modelled upon this constitution, may fairly be termed a "Republic of Conscience." MEMBERS OF THE T S We have now, we think, made clear why our members, as individuals, are free to stay outside or inside any creed they please, provided they do not pretend that none but themselves shall enjoy the privilege of conscience, and try to force their opinions upon the others. In this respect the Rules of the Society are very strict: It tries to act upon the wisdom of the old Buddhistic axiom, "Honour thine own faith, and do not slander that of others"; echoed back in our present century, in the "Declaration of Principles" of the Brahmo Samaj, which so nobly states that: "no sect shall be vilified, ridiculed, or hated." RULE: It is not lawful for any officer of the Parent Society to express, by word or act, any hostility to, or preference for, any one section (sectarian division, or group within the Society) more than another. All must be regarded and treated as equally the objects of the Society's solicitude and exertions. All have an equal right to have the essential features of their religious belief laid before the tribunal of an impartial world. In their individual capacity, members may, when attacked, occasionally break this Rule, but, nevertheless, as officers they are restrained, and the Rule is strictly enforced during the meetings. FOR, ABOVE ALL HUMAN SECTS STANDS THEOSOPHY IN ITS ABSTRACT SENSE; THEOSOPHY WHICH IS TOO WIDE FOR ANY OF THEM TO CONTAIN, BUT WHICH EASILY CONTAINS THEM. …we may state that [the T S], broader and far more universal in its views than any existing mere scientific Society, it has, plus science, its belief in every possibility, and determined will to penetrate into those unknown spiritual regions which exact science pretends that its votaries have no business to explore. UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD And, it has one quality more than any religion in that it makes no difference between Gentile, Jew, or Christian. It is in this spirit that the Society has been established upon the footing of a UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD. UNCONCERNED ABOUT POLITICS; HOSTILE TO THE INSANE DREAMS OF SOCIALISM AND OF COMMUNISM, WHICH IT ABHORS... THE SOCIETY CARES BUT LITTLE ABOUT THE OUTWARD HUMAN MANAGEMENT OF THE MATERIAL WORLD. The whole of its aspirations are directed towards the occult truths of the visible and invisible worlds. Whether the physical man be under the rule of an empire or a republic, concerns only the man of matter…They have no sway over the inner man. The true student has ever been a recluse, a man of silence and meditation. With the busy world his habits and tastes are so little in common that, while he is studying, his enemies and slanderers have undisturbed opportunities. But time cures all and lies are but ephemera. Truth alone is eternal. One man's thought, infinitely various as are its manifestations, is not all-embracing. Denied ubiquity, it must necessarily speculate but in one direction; and once transcending the boundaries of exact human knowledge, it has to err and wander, for the ramifications of the one Central and absolute Truth are infinite. PHILOSOPHY But as all work for one and the same object, namely, the disenthralment of human thought, the elimination of superstitions, and the discovery of truth, all are equally welcome. The attainment of these objects, all agree, can best be secured by convincing the reason and warming the enthusiasm of the generation of fresh young minds…And, as each--the great ones as well as small--have trodden the royal road to knowledge, we listen to all, and take both small and great into our fellowship. For no honest searcher comes back empty-handed, and even he who has enjoyed the least share of popular favor can lay at least his mite upon the one altar of Truth. - HPB THEOSOPHIST, October, 1879 ----------------------------------------------------- “THEOSOPHIST IS WHO THEOSOPHY DOES.” Key ======================================================= AUTHORITY HPB AS AN "AUTHORITY" HPB does not claim "authority." She claims to be a "messenger." Specifically a messenger from the Great and Ancient Lodge of ADEPTS. In both ISIS UNVEILED and The SECRET DOCTRINE she disclaims any personal authority and gives the credit for the records she transmits to the real authors, the Mahatmas. Since she was well aware that the Theosophical theories and hypotheses would be received with various degrees of incredulity from the academies, she was careful to make it clear that the information was in reality taken from the HISTORY that the Adepts and their disciples (chelas) had recorded down the ages. All that she requested was "equal time" and open consideration of what Theosophy had to offer. [ S D I 272 - 300 ] This suggests that THEOSOPHY is not a new fangled system of collated ideas drawn from many sources -- in fact if it were even that, then the marvel is of HPB's mind. And, her capacity in drawing such a vast diversity together and showing how the many pieces hung together to form a seamless whole in the world of ideas and concepts. In many student's experience and wide reading, there is no one who has written such a comprehensive view of our world, the organization of the universe, on the spiritual, intellectual and psychological basis, and the part that Mankind plays in that. The immortality of man's Spirit / Soul and the "God-spirit" (the Universal DEIFIC ESSENCE), being present in every "life-atom" of our LIVING UNIVERSE, are fundamental concepts. Everything in Nature trends in its life-experience towards a higher degree of knowledge, wisdom, and perfection. Each life-cycle (incarnation) is like a separate day at school and all are drawn together by the uniting thread of the immortal, and eternal spiritual Self which is at their core. In fact she shows how Theosophy traces the evolution of the "consciousness and intelligence" of the SPIRITUAL SOUL or Monad, through many forms -- from the atom to the human condition of independent free-will. As below, so above -- said the wise Hermes. The Atom and the Universe correspond in structure, movement and objectives. They are integrated into one vast brotherhood of sensitive and inter-protective laws. The great and the "small" are mutually dependent. "Spirit" cannot exist without "matter." Eternal Mind -- is the witness to all progress and life. This sweep and concept is one that can be traced in every one of the great religions and philosophies of the world. It is the record of their existence, of their common source, and of our participation, again and again, in those processes. Currently there is debate as to whether Theosophy has its roots in Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, etc... And the place of Judaism, Kabala, Islam and Sufism is debated and considered in many ways. The question is always asked: 'Does knowledge, wisdom, and action have limits?" The Universe stands as evidence that they not only do, b out that the inter-relationship which permits diversified "life," is as ancient as Science and philosophy are able to trace. It is understood that scholars who are deeply familiar with those systems and their development can trace the evidence and the pathways of the development of similarities in observation and thought. However, HPB claims on behalf of the great and ancient Lodge of Adepts, that all those were derived from the "Sanatana Dharma," the "Perennial Philosophy." which is a record of Life's development and history which they have observed and left records of.. [ ISIS UNVEILED Vol. 2, pp 98-105. ] Modern "Theosophy" [the Wisdom of the Deity] claims to expose the outlines of this system and traces these facts everywhere in the world, and in the records of history on all continents. As such Theosophy claims to be at the root and at the origin of all the great ancient religio-philosophical systems and provides a reason for their development as systems of practice leading to that kind of "initiation" which develops Wisdom in thought and mind as well as simultaneously the application of compassion and harmlessness in motive. Thus, Theosophy, is not exclusively religion, or philosophy but also includes science -- it is the power to investigate and record the workings of NATURE (Life as a Whole) in every stage and department of the world and our Universe. The sweep of the ever-present immortal Life, through cycles of evolution lead at last to the "all-Knowingness" of the PERFECTED MAN. The designation "Mahatma" (Great Soul) is one that includes all such self-developed men of superior knowledge and nature. It is held that every single "monad" in our world, and our Universe is destined to eventually enter the human stage of "freedom to think." From there on, as we, humans can, the power to develop further is placed squarely in our hands. The current test of humanity is? will it dare to assume the responsibility? Will it follow Hermes' other injunction: " Man, Know Thyself." The SECRET DOCTRINE therefore speaks of those great Initiates, the "Fathers" and the "Guardians" of wisdom, as the intelligent guides, and assistants that Nature employs to assist every fresh evolutionary effort, a "new Day" of intelligent development and progress -- open without exceptions to all beings. If this is grasped the minute details and studies of specialists, while respected, as continuing proof of the inclusive nature of Theosophy, is also shown to be but the outer covering, to be but one way to approach to the interior mystery of man's own mind, and its almost infinite capacities. If this infinite capacity of the human mind to grow and to understand the most simple, as well as the most complex subjects is grasped, the more learned will continually encourage the learners to investigate and prove for themselves all avenues, however diverse, of information, tradition and lore. And that is the always growing tip of the self-enlightening Mind. It always widens out to that which is permanent and universal, when given a chance to emerge from ignorance, doubt, skepticism and lethargy. Theosophy shows us that the real energizers are OURSELVES. =================================================== Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Koshek Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 12:59 AM To: Subject: RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS   I've been thinking about those questions for some time. Even though it is explained in Key to Theosophy, I still wonder "Who is a theosophist?"   If you remember, HPB says that membership in the Theosophical Society does not make one a theosophist, and furthermore, most members are not. She goes on to say that there are many theosophists, more than there are theosophists who are members in the Theosophical Society. (Section 2, page 20 in my addition.) Since I assume that a member of the Theosophical Society is most likely studying the Ancient Wisdom, perhaps study does not make one a theosophist? At the same time, a complete altruist may know nothing of the Ancient Wisdom, so the question arises - how can he be a true theosophist?   Does altruism naturally lead to theosophy?   ====================================================   Another question that also comes to mind is that of AUTHORITY. My own introspection leads me to the following conclusion. We first must listen before we can think. During the listening phase, when information is being passed on, doesn't the granter of that wisdom become an authority? This is why when we have faith in the Masters, as HPB says is pre-requisite to getting the teachings, our cup is empty so to speak and we listen without criticism. Then there is the second phase, which is thinking about the teaching. This is when we should be critical of what we have received, and wrestle with the concepts and see if it fits reason. At this second phase, it's best you do not consider authority, not even of the Master's themselves.   So my conclusion is, considering AUTHORITY depends on which phase of the process you are in, receiving or thinking.   Perhaps this resolves the apparent contradiction in the words of HPB and the Masters on AUTHORITY and DOUBT. This is my guess.   Koshek   Yahoo! Groups Links ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From clarity12.1@juno.com Sun Dec 05 17:41:39 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: clarity12.1@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 28437 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 01:41:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 01:41:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com) (64.136.20.164) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 01:41:39 -0000 Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail27.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.167]) by smtpout06.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABA5HQGGAUWREC2 for (sender ); Sun, 5 Dec 2004 17:41:26 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: 4ohJS0CGC59/Kp5GWNMAw5dioYqCpGgvrHdyiwZEiupxFsCFZ1jh/g== Received: (from clarity12.1@juno.com) by webmail27.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KD5PMNZ5; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:40:45 PST Received: from [68.44.16.38] by webmail27.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 01:39:50 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 01:39:50 GMT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041205.174045.3529.70138@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 6:3:1407472691 X-MAIL-INFO: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 dcd9ed4848d961f848f888689188c16815a915c568e8e88c898cacc5a10da1a128dcd84838ec8818a9487178919588889c0129450000412d413c291d491db139e13c2cb8852c9975b83d853d3d557800cc41ad280511f5a911a8dcf595a995 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.136.20.164 From: "Regina St Clare" X-Originating-IP: [68.44.16.38] Subject: Re: Theos-World Eastern Tradition Research Institute: Concerning H.P. Blavatsky's translations from the Book of Dzyan X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=178968717 X-Yahoo-Profile: stclareregina I still wonder why we do not hear of the TAO is Theos talk and how it fits into the mix of the Ageless Wisdom and the relevance in current time. I have only become interested and do have have any theosophist to chat with about it. Regina -- "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: Long-time students of Theosophy as well as inquirers and new students will want to be aware of a new website titled: Eastern Tradition Research Institute founded by David and Nancy Reigle See: http://easterntradition.org/ Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER http://hpb.cc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sun Dec 05 17:44:29 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99290 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 01:44:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 01:44:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.12) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 01:44:28 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.96.253]) by mta2.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 21857396 for ; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 19:43:16 -0600 CST Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20041205194405.0437c180@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 19:45:06 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20041205.174045.3529.70138@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 69.9.90.12 From: MKR Subject: TAO X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pl post questions/issues you are interested in. Someone may respond. mkr At 01:39 AM 12/06/04 +0000, you wrote: >I still wonder why we do not hear of the TAO is Theos talk and how it fits >into the mix of the Ageless Wisdom and the relevance in current time. > >I have only become interested and do have have any theosophist to chat >with about it. > >Regina ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.799 / Virus Database: 543 - Release Date: 11/19/04 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From clarity12.1@juno.com Sun Dec 05 17:48:06 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: clarity12.1@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 38405 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 01:48:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 01:48:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com) (64.136.20.164) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 01:48:06 -0000 Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail27.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.167]) by smtpout02.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABA5HQTWA3D5MQ2 for (sender ); Sun, 5 Dec 2004 17:47:32 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: 4ohJS0CGC59/Kp5GWNMAw5dioYqCpGgvxesfux3n+zXr3ue8XS4O3A== Received: (from clarity12.1@juno.com) by webmail27.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KD5PZSGL; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:47:22 PST Received: from [68.44.16.38] by webmail27.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 01:46:32 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 01:46:32 GMT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041205.174722.3529.70248@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 15:7:4053671688 X-MAIL-INFO:1bf515250180a07460a1952904b9094d6180443d51d56495209065e029a52000b45984e0e07520f1f0a98da9c4fde0f050c95d70b15139a9a4651d9925d4fdd01dd19ddd2dd4d4381d45c4554155d534d4c41915a5891139b90145387904ad15c19de4040179a170099d09053de901818010c920a14d95cdfd09e99099cd2095e154f090f0a08dd020f1e5502124e1b0c97555f0d0b1f4513565a474c994b44199ddd4f40131ed40bdd4d1156d251095812929ad84ad209591e5919139149da1d9e4bd0425a10d594d79bdbde9d02da9b1b1995199b42da494a4b06dd4b454f4dd544040f489dd89890059b1a09911395d388525383434857925 79 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.136.20.164 From: "Regina St Clare" X-Originating-IP: [68.44.16.38] Subject: Re: Theos-World My Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=178968717 X-Yahoo-Profile: stclareregina Welcome Kamal, You have much to contribute and I look forward to your sharing your experience. Just last night at our TS meeting in New Jersey, we were talking about svara and how certain families in India have the task of preserving the rites the make possible the growing of plants based on the pure sound vibration. Do you know anyting more about this? Regina -- Mauri wrote: Kamal Singh Rajput wrote: > > Dear Sir, > I am a professor of Physics. I have been studying theosophy since school > days. I have also been a member of Theosophical Lodge at Tikamgarhabout 32 > years back. In Physics, I have worked in Quantum Mechanics, Relativity and > Plasma Physics. In Theosophy, I have worked in rthe projection of Astral > Body. I have been in interested in Yoga and Meditation as well. I have > studied almost all the four vedas, Geeta, Valmiki Ramayan, Shri MadBhagwat > etc. I shall be thankful, if you accept me as an active member of the group. > Sincerely yours > > ...Kamal-S-Rajput... Welcome. Looking forward to your input. Not that I'm "Sir," exactly, but ... If that post was intended for a particular "Sir," my apologies for jumping in. ^:-/ Mauri PS that's my symbol for a confused and speculative guy who thought he might've had something important enough to say but wound up scratching his head. But, not to worry, Kamal-S-Rajput, lots of people on this are (or might be generally considered to be, even by themselves, maybe ...) far less confused and speculative than myself. ^:-) Yahoo! Groups Links ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Dec 05 21:29:33 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67114 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 05:29:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 05:29:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gatekeeper.look.ca) (207.136.80.8) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 05:29:32 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.156] (helo=idirect.ca) by gatekeeper.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CbBQR-00075M-FW for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 05:28:43 +0000 Message-ID: <41B3EE89.30602@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 00:30:49 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on chi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.8 From: Mauri Subject: re crop circles and symbology X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn re crop circles and symbology Definitions re symbology, I suspect, might often enough tend to get more or less drawn toward various conventional notions, and where conventional (especially orthodox) notions might be seen as having presented a problem of sorts (in whatever "more specific" sense/context, as might be seen to be suggested by, say, Theosophical notions/modeling in contrast to the likes of, say, "dumbing down and corporatizing," eg ...) ... then, as I tend to see it, there might be limits to the means by which certain kinds of effects/influences might be prompted, I'm speculating. So I'm wondering if, maybe, that kind of situation might be justification (from the perspective of w/Whoever ...) for the production of phenomena that might be expected (by w/Whoever ...) to speak somewhat indirectly (by-passing conventional notions about symbols, per se ...) by somehow possibly alerting/reminding (even non-students of Theosophy, maybe ...) that a greater reality exists, transcending even, among other things, the widespead tendency/practice of dumbing down and corporatizing, and possibly transcending even some orthodox religious views, among other things ... Speculatively, Mauri From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sun Dec 05 22:05:38 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 29239 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 06:05:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 06:05:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.12) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 06:05:37 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.96.44]) by mta2.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 21884420 for ; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 00:04:24 -0600 CST Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20041206000441.0510dd00@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 00:06:13 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20041205.174722.3529.70248@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 69.9.90.12 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World My Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is news to me. Has anyone seen any published info on this? mkr At 01:46 AM 12/06/04 +0000, Regina St Clare wrote: >Just last night at our TS meeting in New Jersey, we were talking about >svara and how certain families in India have the task of preserving the >rites the make possible the growing of plants based on the pure sound >vibration. Do you know anyting more about this? > >Regina ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.806 / Virus Database: 548 - Release Date: 12/05/04 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samblo@cs.com Mon Dec 06 01:55:06 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94037 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 09:55:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 09:55:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m16.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.206) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 09:55:05 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.8e.1bc5839b (17079) for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 04:53:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8e.1bc5839b.2ee58626@cs.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 04:53:42 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.138.206 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World re teachings/Masters today and in ancient Egypt, South Americ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Mauri, Thanks for your comments. Well, The climate of Nasca is ideal for the Nasca imprints as there is a consistent very low precipitation for quite a long time. However that is not a permanent condition and at certain periods the dryness was not continuous as it is today. There are studies on the Nasca Culture that separate them from ancient cultures. Maria Reich spent many years attempting to render an acceptable meaning to them, and as far as I know, never reached a final conclusion that was comprehensive, inclusive of all the elements and reviewed and accepted by her Peer Group. I find them immensely stimulating myself as well as the more recent Crop Circles. Even the dedicated "experts" who study the Crop Circles also differ in what signification's they think are intimated by them, and there is no serious consideration by the Peer Academic Disciplines of Science. In the same vein today's modern Archeologists are unmoving and obdurate in placing Tiahuanaco at around 1095 AD, completely throwing out Posnansky's 20 years of on site measurement and cataloguing so they can continue to maintain their accepted "Timeline" of cultures. I am not quite sure how you mean "corporate" in your usage. As far as elemental's, that too is unclear, I am sure some, especially those who advocate a Religious view may attribute the actions to some such as "elemental's" as a via to propose some negative connotation, but I do not think in my personal opinion that that is what, who, is the actual responsible party. Years ago, and also historically I saw the so called "Plasma Balls" some think make the crop circles and the circumstance was such that "communications" were in process of reception at that moment in time. They are not limited to crop circles and antedate crop circle activity. In the UFO community they are referred to as "Monitors" and I have seen them zipping around the outside of the "Communictors" home when he was giving the communication. Also the UFO case I was involved in for more than seven years had presentment of the Balls of Light, Orange in his case. They appeared quite a number of times and also on an occasion at the foot of his bed, beginning at about 18 inches in diameter, then expanding to a sphere large enough for a Person to take appearance within the sphere itself, that person spoke to him, or so he swears. I might add that he passed both Lie Detector and Voice Stress Analysis tests. Once when the "experiencer" was in a "rapport" state, due to my strong interest in just what the mysterious Balls of Light actually were, I directly asked "What are the Balls of Light?" I got a single word as the answer, "Distereoisomer," there is a branch of organic chemistry which involves with this that involves "Mirror Image" handedness of organic elements. But at any rate I find it ridiculous when scientists invent irrational rationality's to extrapolate an invented explanation for every thing under the sun. Clearly there is an "Intelligent Consciousness" that is the director of making Crop circles and not random Plasma descending from the troposphere to the ground level of a farm crop which then "composes" aesthetically organized Designs using the living plants. No, they will never run out of "creative" origination's to fixate and maintain the stasis of their mutual agreements, lol. John From samblo@cs.com Mon Dec 06 02:06:37 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 47221 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 10:06:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 10:06:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m20.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.1) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 10:06:36 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.89.1b6849ed (17079) for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 05:02:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <89.1b6849ed.2ee58849@cs.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 05:02:49 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.1 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Eastern Tradition Research Institute: Concerning H.P. Blavat... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Daniel, Thanks for the Reigle's new Website, have placed in favorites and will be reading ASAP. John From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Dec 06 04:11:00 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 37585 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 12:10:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 12:10:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 12:10:56 -0000 Received: from [216.244.6.29] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbHhc-0001H1-Lf; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 07:10:54 -0500 To: Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 04:06:57 -0800 Message-ID: <001301c4db8c$a12d2010$1d06f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <04dd01c4da36$ce1924e0$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79b641fa00e4359e5daafea32b64ca4f52350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 216.244.6.29 Subject: RE: Theos-World Judge "even higher than" Blavatsky?? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 6 2004 Thanks Frank: All you say is most interesting. We all hope that there will be a change. Fortunately, THEOSOPHY is not the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY . Best wishes, Dallas =============================== -----Original Message----- From: ringding777@t-online.de [mailto:ringding777@t-online.de] Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 11:24 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Judge "even higher than" Blavatsky?? > I think that you are talking about some letters that > exists in Adyar > related to Judge and Besant. > In her last visit to Argentina (April 2004), Radha > Burnier told me > that in Adyar exist a pile of letters about "Judge's > case" that > shows the righteous of Besant's attitude. > "Unfortunately -said me > Radha- there are a lot of theosophical work to do > and there are no > time for compile and edit this material. But someone > will must do it > in some time". As a theosophist I never believe anything what the hypocrites from Adyar claim. If there is no one who is interested in publishing the warning letters of Judge to Besant, why do they give no one else the opportunity to it? Perhaps Mrs Burnier would have more time to do theosophical work and publish the Judge letters (in the 1960'ies when Boris de Zirkoff viewed them, but was not allowed to publish them, the ink was already faded away) if she would not stick with Krishnamurti poppycock. And why did Joy Mills say that the Adyar bonzes will the glad when the letters get rot. > Theosophical Society of Adyar works in order to > promote a spiritual > regeneration in humanity, and usually sees all this Really? I have witnessed several times quite the opposite. It seems one of us two must be liar. > Dear Frank, as I can see through your messages, you > have a strong > tendency to see "black forces" and "dark reasons" in > everything that > is not your own point of view. Much of your > accusations to Adyar > T.S. are fantasies of people that imagine and > speculate, but don't > actually know, in which sense works the Adyar T.S. Really? Please explain me why the Adyar TS at its 2002 Berlin Convention recommended evil doings to be able to be a warrior of light for the now beginning last war to free the planet forever? It was said - in the presence of Radha Burnier and Mary Anderson - without allowing anyone to speak free or to contradict - that only that people which are doing evils now will be chosen by the Masters. So I kindly ask you: Which Masters do you have at Adyar? Obviously they are not the Masters of HPB. Your satanic brood is even far more worse than the Vatican and SJ together. Lie, hypocrisy, deception, misreprentation, contumely and ACTIVE BLACK MAGIC against true theosophists is the Adyar brand. And that has not changed much for the last 120 years. The Masters have left in 1885 and they never returned to Adyar. Expect the Krishnamurti poppycock. > much bad, as being in control of dugpas. You can be > in disaccord > with some points of view, etc. But you will be able > to see in a > compassionate and non-fanatic form the other people. > Sorry if I'm harsh in my expression... but remember > that I don't > know very much English... > With warm regards > p Toleration is a good thing, so long as your crazy Adyar people do not persecute the little ones. Your tone is very much psychic or emotional, quite the opposite of what is regarded in theosophy as spiritual. There is no spiritual argument in your answer. Not one. And that is typical for your gang. Also typical is the projection behavior. It is you who in twisting and misrepresentation the dorctrines and terms is fanatical, not your victims. To speak out cleary: Everyone who is a party-liner of Adyar and tries to hypnotize the people, prevent them to think and paralyse them with emotionalism (saying it's spiritual) is in fact an insane person. I have witnessed that in dozens of cases with local theosophists here and so it was reported to me also from many others. I have absolutely NO reason to mistrust them what I have eyewitnessed for many years. The real existing Adyar organization is a very big danger for true spiritual progress. And it is exactly for that reason that the theosophical organizations were prohibited by Hitler. And because of your Adyar pseudo-theosophy also the pukka theosophists had to suffer. You know that because in the Adyar archives is your letter exchange with Hitler. This letters would also interest many, but Adyar does not publish them. Perhaps you have also not enough time for that?? Har, har. with no king regards, Frank Yahoo! Groups Links From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Dec 06 04:11:14 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 56661 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 12:11:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 12:11:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 12:11:09 -0000 Received: from [216.244.6.29] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbHhh-0001H1-Sj; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 07:11:05 -0500 To: Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 04:06:57 -0800 Message-ID: <001401c4db8c$a4497b40$1d06f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec798483d73ee3ed29ad6b0ee21a821c4918350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 216.244.6.29 Subject: RE: Theos-World My Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 6 2004 Dear Friend : Thanks for joining us and writing to introduce yourself. There are no formalities for writing in your comments and inquiries. Consider yourself and your views very welcome. We are all students and inquirers, and interested in the exchange of ideas. One might say we are perennial students, and also, trying to learn what THEOSOPHY can teach. We all feel that in this vast Universe, we have a lot to learn and are learning new things every day.=20=20 There are no finalities, but, hopefully with each other=92s help, we can assist one another to obtain an ever-focused sharpening of understanding. = =20 Here is one aspect of thought: May we assume that you have visited this Theosophy Study Discussion List because you hope that there may be answers from students of Theosophy which you could compare with the thesis you may have already set up. When we begin to consciously think of how we fit in and are part of the Whole, we can come to understand that we are powerful spiritual beings having a human experience that needs to be recognized and taken control of. =A0=09 Here is one way of looking at things :=A0 The present day Scientist and Theosophical students =96 and we are all students -- study the information provided and then we compare our understanding of them. Our =93Science=94 tries to explain by hypothesis and theories what may have= been the =93past=94 of present day observations (of course limited by the availability of artifacts and relics, and their present knowledge of the LAWS, so far detected and observed to be operating, in many correlated departments of Nature). No one will dispute facts. One proviso in this work of scientific discover= y and identification is the one of extreme honesty =96 no secrets, no hiding = -- is that all facts and discoveries (anomalies especially) are to be made available for all to see and draw conclusions about.=20 >From evidence occasionally made available, it would seem that on occasion, certain facts (and artifacts) are removed from the glare of publicity =96 a= nd we might conclude that this is done because they could upset or question some well-established hypothesis or theory. If true, this is not strict =93honesty.=94 Where has the =93public=94 been invited to review the =93fac= ts?=94 This I have looked for but rarely if ever found in a systematic, scientific way. As a result, I, for one, although a student of Science and an editor, distrust scientific hypotheses, and any kind of pontification. There are i= n Science no =93authorities=94 =96 only seekers, observers and honest, accura= te reporters. As a case in point, let me refer you to the voluminous work HIDDEN ARCHEOLOGY (by Cremo and Johnson) published in San Diego, and a second volume issue two years later, in which they document the reception by scientists of their first book and the anomalous =93facts=94 it displays. = =20 Several authors down the years have pointed to these and (to my knowledge) have never been thoroughly refuted by Science =96 or given prominence -- to= my knowledge.=20=20 We may take the writings of John Anthony West, Von Danniken, Emanuel Velikovsky, Charles Fort, H. P. Blavatsky. These are four authors, who in their writings, articles, books -- have challenged =96 not Science=92s fact= s -- but their interpretations of the past as they have reconstructed it in thei= r widely accepted (but rarely re-investigated) theories and hypotheses. There are in existence challenging anomalies that demand a review of the older theories =96 after all, a =93theory, or, an hypothesis=94 are not inf= lexible and are always subject to revision as new facts are discovered. In my opinion, the exposing of challenges to scientific =93hypothesis and theories=94 show us, who are thinkers and observers, that they are not invariably of the highest value (although they are often taught as =93truth= s). They cannot be adopted or treated as =93authoritative.=94 There are differences to be investigated.=20=20 =A0 One may well ask: Why is it a fact that there are disagreements? We presen= t our views and findings, you have your own to compare. Naturally we will present to you what we know in terms drawn from Theosophy as you have approached us to find out what THEOSOPHY says.=20=20 =A0 As to providing you with information from =93other systems,=94 while this i= s available, we have not all done that extensive work and concentrated it. I believe it will prove difficult (but ought to be initiated), as the fundamental Theosophical approach is: that it, Theosophy, is a very ancien= t system of continued Scientific research and observation in all departments of Nature, and of the world religions, philosophies, and also this observation and recording in old as well as modern Sciences, are derived from it.=20=20 As an example, in H P B=92s =93The SECRET DOCTRINE=94 you will find it stat= ed that the doctrines discussed have an antiquity going back some at least 18 million years.=20=20 HPB states those are actually physically in the possession of the =93Maste= rs of Wisdom.=94 [ S D I 272-3 ] That exceeds by a great many years, and cycles of years, any concept of time that the research done by organized Science in the past 300 years -- (I mean, since =93Orientalism,=94 began w= ith the scientists that Napoleon 1 had accompany him to Egypt in the very early 19th century.) It is of course very annoying to find that the ancients (India, China, Tibet, Mongolia, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Iran, the Incas and Mayans, etc=85) ha= d made discoveries and had observed the movement of the stars for millennia before our present =93discoveries.=94 In many cases we (our Science) corroborates those, and in some we have disagreement.=20=20=20 The main point and attitude we, as investigators and Scientists, ought to always adopt ought to be: Lets verify. Let=92s freely admit that we have discovered evidence that shows antiquity, in many parts of the world, had processes and used materials they were able to manufacture for which we hav= e yet to discover the secrets.=20 There is no =93shame=94 in this, but any claims to novelty disappear in the rightful process of verification.=20 =A0 Theosophical sources are the writings of Mme. Blavatsky: books and articles, most of which can be studied and understood by anyone.. Also, to some extent, they have to be individually supplemented with first hand observation and inquiries over years.=20 =A0 Neither you, nor we (as students of Theosophy), are the final arbiters in this. We do make comparisons. Some we understand and others we do not. W= e are continually learning, all of us.=20=20 But, as I understand it, it is facts that we are looking for, as well as, the supporting of mental acuity and freedom of thought.=20=20 Those who worship at the shrine of TRUTH and FACT are contemptuous of no source of information, nor of any anomalies, or of contemporary or earlier work done by any one. We seek for traces of similarity, of analogy, or correspondence.=20=20 Look through ISIS UNVEILED, (by HPB) if you wish to see what facts and events are brought forward for consideration there. It tends to point to important evens and anomalies that the Science of her days (and now, still) need to verify. On publication, ISIS UNVEILED created a sensation, and in a week all copies of the book were sold. It has been kept in print since then.=20=20 Eleven years later The SECRET DOCTRINE was issued;. There you have a synopsis and review of the Occult records of the history of our Earth=92s formation and the evolution of mankind. These are meticulously contrasted with Science and its theories as known and taught in her time of writing. Some of those are still maintained. In many cases, and most often in terms of cycles and time=96periods, the SECRET DOCTRINE does not agree with the current theories and hypotheses of modern Orientalism and Science. But tha= t does not make them wrong, or extraordinarily fanciful, or suspect. [see S D II, pp. 78-80] =A0 We (as students of Theosophy) take the position that NATURE (or Deity) already contains everything. It is Nature as a fully conscious and intelligent lawful ENTITY of enormous size =96 which, as a whole, supports every detail of our needs (as well as those of all other beings in existence). It gives us, not only our =93life,=94 but that of all =91being= s=92 that make up our total environment. Law and Laws alone govern every aspect of being and manifestation. Our Science studies those.=20 NATURE is the Universal Shrine Of Our Common Worship. Its organization ranges through seven stages between the limits of INFINITY and NOUGHT. It i= s a calculus made living and perfectly obvious to the seeker. All living beings, of whatever kind, are supported by the united processes of laws that Nature has already in place. [ Chemistry, physics, mathematics= , astronomy, biology, medicine, sociology, linguistics, politics, history, paleography, philosophy, theology, etc=85 are as old as thinking man -- a period said to comprise at least 18 million years. [see S D I, p. 150 footnote]=20=20 All the discoveries of Science are simply the revealing and verifying of what is already there laid down and operating under Nature=92s control and supervision. There is no =93novelty=94 only DISCOVERY, and verification of facts observed. =A0 Our present knowledge has, and is, gradually being built up. It is NOT built on the basis that any one individual =93knows best,=94 or knows =93everything,=94 and therefore challenging words like =93lies,=94 =93misunderstandings,=94 =93charlatanry,=94 =93fraud,=94 etc. are not used,= unless there is verified evidence, at FIRST HAND of their existence. Their use in inquir= y and conversation implies to me, that certain judgments have been made. Permit me to question their validity.=20=20 As you have read the literature of Theosophy, then, in a broad-minded, free capacity to embrace information, do you have any specific objections to statements made there. Inquiry starts with dialog. But if there is a pre-judged position assumed by either party, at that point inquiry and exchange ceases. It then becomes argument =96 and =93opinions=94 as viewed= by some impartial third party=94 are made to emerge and strand on whatever bas= is they deserve.=20 Incidentally, have you have read Sylvia Cranston=92s biography of H.P.B. (Tarcher, New York) as it answers seriously and with documented facts all the innuendos cast at this life and work of this remarkable Personage =A0 If permitted, let me ask, if you have read ISIS UNVEILED or The SECRET DOCTRINE? I am interested in the opinions you have to offer, and their basis.=20 =A0 If one has had the benefit of a wide acquaintance with Science and Academic research in general, one may find that the most valuable attitudes among such wonderful and dedicated people can be classed as humility, diligence, and unprejudiced research =96 and of course, this has to include a wide research, and a good knowledge of all adjacent disciplines.=20=20 Those who are at the forefront of discovery in Science, Orientalism, and Philosophy ask probing questions, seek for facts, and do not make pronouncements, designed to support their views, guesses and opinions of th= e past or present. To take but a few we have at the cutting edge of Science: Hawkings, Penrose, Sheldrake, Margulis, Mandelbrot, Viswanath Diwakar, etc. =A0 Theosophy fills gaps that Science is still trying to bridge, and for which (and it is a lack of specific knowledge) it has erected =93possible views= =94 of plausible causes and procedures in the establishing of a reasonable =93history,=94 and calls them: theories and hypotheses, which are found to frequently change as the history of Science reveals, when new evidence appears.=20=20 =A0 It would seem to me, that you may have adopted some conclusions which today are acceptable in your =93Discipline.=94 And it also seems to me that you = are seeking to verify and prove your pre-judged position. To me, this is most commendable as it will enable you to make strict scientific research possible.=20=20 =A0 You have obviously made a unique study -- leading to specialization. You have therefore assumed that the solutions (theories and hypotheses) accepte= d by your =93authorities=94 and adopted by you are correct. But are you not = in the process of proving them also? Your discoveries in India's ancient literature and records will be most valuable to correspondents here. =A0 In my own way of looking at myself, I prefer to call myself a =93generalist= .=94 I listen to all sides and take notes and reserve assuming any position unti= l it is clear we are all considering such facts and reports as are available. I try to cover a number of inter-related disciplines, since it is evident that Nature has interlocking and cohesive systems in place. For example, o= n careful examination I believe we might say:=20=20 Nature (taken as a whole) appears to be infinitely sensitive and responsive to the needs of the individual components of its many systems. One can see order and precision in the motions, and influence surrounding an atom, a crystal, an element or a chemical compound, a plant, an animal, a man, a mathematical equation, or a chemical, physical or astronomical problem -- or take the remarkable advance in astro-physics and look at a Solar System and the large number of interacting Galaxies that the use of the Hubble telescope has revealed in all directions.=20=20 Is the Universe in fact an enormous SUN ? Are we bathed (as unit parts of its inhabitants) with a constant stream of the most varied radiations?=20 We live on Earth, but our =93heads=94 are in those far stars. Are we then t= o limit and sequester our knowledge?=20=20 What roads of endeavour lead to WISDOM ? =A0 Law and Laws are found to rule everywhere. Science depends on the honesty and accuracy of Nature in all its works near and far. Science makes its declarations based on the facts it discovers. It chooses NATURE as the final authority. It says that any discovery can be replicated and demonstrated by any one else. It is the universality of facts that is valuable, and not the individual opinions of the discoverers.=20=20 =A0 In the orient, the oldest texts were transmitted verbally with great contro= l over sound and inflection because (and I have tapes that demonstrate this) concealed in the sound were some of the =93codes=94 whereby secret knowledg= e was transmitted. The superficial sounds in ancient verses were made to present a coherency that served as a kind of =93blind=94 which diverted and deflect= ed the attention of a newcomer or a non-initiate. =A0 There are certain euphonic similarities which, studied in terms of actual linguistic distribution (present and past) are said to have a relationship.= =20 It remains to find out what is correct. [ see SECRET DOCTRINE (on languag= e and codes): I, pp. 269, 307-25, 362, 568; II, pp, 198-201, 334-5, 364, 560, ] =A0 Again, neither of us are either right or wrong, but we seek to find out where the greater accuracy is. Your research and mine may overlap in places, but they are not invariably coincident, and certainly neither of us can assume that their position and our particular observations are necessarily final, and the statements made by the other are idiotic.=20 And as I understand it, in a life time of dealing with experts in all departments of Scientific research, prejudice is usually careless of the findings of other disciplines, unless the researcher has a rare and inquisitive (even intuitive) nature and is determined to find the TRUTH by any and every means, and accept no conclusions unless they are proven to general satisfaction. We accept nothing and reject nothing. The future will teach this.=20=20 [Incidentally, you will find a full range of Theosophical literature =93on line=94 at=20 PHOENIX=A0 ULT=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 www.phx-ult-lodge.org= / =A0=A0=A0 Books "on line" and for downloading SECRET DOCTRINE -- HPB ISIS UNVEILED -- HPB The VOICE OF THE SILENCE -- HPB LIGHT ON THE PATH=20 A MODERN PANARION=A0 ( H P B ) FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE=A0 ( H P B ) KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) & GLOSSARY (H P B) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY (H P B) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 The FRIENDLY PHILOSOPHER (Robert Crosbie) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ETERNAL VERITIES=A0 (Robert Crosbie) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS AT AN INFORMAL "OCEAN=20 " CLASS (R C) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 POINT OUT THE WAY [Answers to Questions at an=20 "Ocean" Class (J G) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 BHAGAVAD GITA=A0 and=A0 BHAGAVAD GITA NOTES=20=09 (Judge) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ECHOES FROM THE ORIENT (Judge) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 EPITOME OF THEOSOPHY (Judge) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY=A0 (Judge) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 PATANJALI'S YOGA SUTRAS (Judge) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME=A0 ( W Q Judge ) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 THEOSOPHICAL FORUM=A0--=A0ANSWERS BY=A0 (W Q Judge) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 THE DHAMMAPADA=A0 ( Footfalls of the Law )=A0 (Gautama Buddha) THE LIGHT OF ASIA=A0 (Gautama Buddha - life & teachings) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (1875 - 1950)=A0 History ------------------------------------ We, the entire Universe, ever pursues a common and conjoint path of discovery, so while recording facts and events, our final conclusions ever ride along with us, and have to remain as flexible hypotheses =A0-- they he= lp us understand until they for lack of finality, break-down and have to be reframed. The general plan is there all right, but as we all progress through time and events, we reframe the conclusions (Karma) we will have t= o meet in the future.=20 There is no =93stasis=94 (except some assumed ones) anywhere. What are tho= se? 1 the UNIVERSE exists. (On many planes of substance and sensitivity) 2 we as OBSERVERS exist =96 we are immortals as no beginning or end to our work seems logical. Bodies wear out and die, but Karma provides us wit= h new ones, and so one and on=85 (we, as Essential Beings, are not physical = nor mental, but of some kind of SPIRITUAL SUBSTANCE that survives the continual =93ravages of change,=94 in its correlates of time, and alterations in spac= e. =A0 3. the ongoing relations between the UNIVERSE and OURSELVES are an essential part of this timeless and limitless REALITY. In the SECRET DOCTRINE they are said to be seven-fold [ see S D I, 157-8; II, 296 ]. =A0 I hope this will help, Best wishes,=20 Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Kamal S Rajput=20=20 Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 9:29 AM To:=20 Subject: My Introduction Dear Sir, I am a professor of Physics. I have been studying theosophy since school=20 days. I have also been a member of Theosophical Lodge at Tikamgarhabout. 32 years back. In Physics, I have worked in Quantum Mechanics, Relativity and Plasma Physics. In Theosophy, I have worked in rthe projection of Astra= l Body. I have been in interested in Yoga and Meditation as well. I have=20 studied almost all the four vedas, Geeta, Valmiki Ramayan, Shrimad Bhagwata= , etc. I shall be thankful, if you accept me as an active member of the group= . Sincerely yours ...Kamal-... From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 06 04:53:03 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73676 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 12:53:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 12:53:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 12:53:02 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [200.138.238.173]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F90D34DA for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:52:55 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.5]); Mon, 06 Dec 2004 10:52:43 -0200 Message-ID: <005401c4db92$7a1ac760$0301010a@versus> To: Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:52:43 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: Welcome Kamal X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Welcome Kamal Deal Kamal and Regina We are glad to have you among us and I am sure you can contribute and trade= many views with us, not only due to your being an indian citizen, a Theoso= phy student but the interesting background you seem to have got. I am Krishtar, from Brazil, Graphic Designer and Illustrator, free student = of theosophy and a lover of indian culture and writings. I, like many, don=B4t have enough time to read and write on the computer ev= eryday, this group posts a lot, but whenever is possible I read, follow and= give my opinions. I=B4ve been reading the SD in the original 1988 version for the first time = , all I read was the later "revised" version and translated into our mother= tongue, Portuguese. I also have been reading and then translating The ocean of Theosophy by WQ = Judge. The great majority of the Theos. books here are from the new theosophers af= ter HPB but now is very easy to get the online versions and CDRom media ava= iable. Feel free to post your views to us; Best wishes Krishtar [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com Mon Dec 06 06:02:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59828 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 14:02:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 14:02:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.49) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 14:02:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n20.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Dec 2004 14:02:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.134] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Dec 2004 14:02:33 -0000 Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 14:02:33 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041205.174722.3529.70248@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 921 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.49 From: "christinaleestemaker" X-Originating-IP: 83.82.5.119 Subject: Re: My Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162317756 X-Yahoo-Profile: christinaleestemaker --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Hallo Kamal, Welcome too and I am sure you have to contribute a lot to the puzzles of life. "Regina St Clare" wrote: > > > Just last night at our TS meeting in New Jersey, we were talking about svara and how certain families in India have the task of preserving the rites the make possible the growing of plants based on the pure sound vibration. Do you know anyting more about this? > > Regina Hallo ; Another question; I have seen in our lodge there was one person Mr R.E and he has the gift to make flowers fresh and gives them a longer life , like he is a Brahma. (Svaraj) as European Theosophist. > > Greetings Christina > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Juno Gift Certificates > Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. > http://www.juno.com/give From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 06 09:43:32 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26806 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 17:43:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 17:43:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 17:43:30 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbMtM-0001Xl-2P for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 12:43:20 -0500 Message-ID: <41B49A38.6090306@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 12:43:20 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041205.173322.3529.70036@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> In-Reply-To: <20041205.173322.3529.70036@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbac30572d83609f84b36efc66c8fafde2c666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.67 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Regina St Clare wrote: > One and All, To me, the day when any one who calls himself a > theosophist can actually accept the point of view of another, without > defense or offense in thought, word or deed, then we will have the > true spirit of what HPB, in her best intention, flaws and all, was > dedicated to accomplishing. As a theosophist, you should know that things are not that simple. Do you believe that includes, for example, a belief in genocide? A belief that some people are naturally inferior to each other based on who their parents were? That people who have sexual preferences for the same gender are automatically evil? That seizing the property of the Theosophical Society for use by another organization is a right and proper thing to do? That there is only one path to the truth, and that everybody not following that path should drop it and follow that one true path? I don't think that Blavatsky would have any trouble with people having difficulty accepting those points of view. There is a difference between tolerance, respect, and acceptance. Bart From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 06 11:02:45 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6220 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 19:02:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 19:02:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 19:02:39 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [200.138.238.173]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2231F34C2 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 17:02:03 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:01:57 -0200 Message-ID: <005b01c4dbc6$0ef8a400$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041205.173322.3529.70036@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> <41B49A38.6090306@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 17:01:57 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is plainly obvious that she didn=B4t mean this. Perhaps Regina didn=B4t use the correct word, what if she didn=B4t meant " = accept" in the common sense but "understand", respect? Krishtar Original Message -----=20 From: Bart Lidofsky=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS Regina St Clare wrote: > One and All, To me, the day when any one who calls himself a > theosophist can actually accept the point of view of another, without > defense or offense in thought, word or deed, then we will have the > true spirit of what HPB, in her best intention, flaws and all, was > dedicated to accomplishing. As a theosophist, you should know that things are not that simple. Do you believe that includes, for example, a belief in genocide? A=20 belief that some people are naturally inferior to each other based on=20 who their parents were? That people who have sexual preferences for the=20 same gender are automatically evil? That seizing the property of the=20 Theosophical Society for use by another organization is a right and=20 proper thing to do? That there is only one path to the truth, and that=20 everybody not following that path should drop it and follow that one=20 true path? I don't think that Blavatsky would have any trouble with people having=20 difficulty accepting those points of view. There is a difference between= =20 tolerance, respect, and acceptance. Bart =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From clarity12.1@juno.com Mon Dec 06 11:15:32 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: clarity12.1@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97830 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 19:15:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 19:15:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com) (64.136.20.164) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 19:15:28 -0000 Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail26.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.166]) by smtpout06.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABA5KM7WAEULM8A for (sender ); Mon, 6 Dec 2004 11:15:00 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: 4ohJS0CGC59/Kp5GWNMAw5dioYqCpGgvVb2Vv4t/3JeEkdwR6pbxvA== Received: (from clarity12.1@juno.com) by webmail26.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KD7KW5MZ; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 11:14:29 PST Received: from [198.31.188.74] by webmail26.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:14:15 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:14:15 GMT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 8:4:1553246000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.136.20.164 From: "Regina St Clare" X-Originating-IP: [198.31.188.74] Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=178968717 X-Yahoo-Profile: stclareregina I just wrote a long response to Bart and it got deleted somehow. I will get back on this distinction of respect, tolerance and acceptance. Radical compassion is the issue I think. How can we judge who is in his heart is unsaved or unsavable? Where does Love thy Enemy come in? And,yes, stealing property is an issue that needs legal attention and hopefully justice. As for homosexuals,(though it is said that Leadbeater was homosexual)or people in the meat industry/non vegetarians not being accepted in the inner circles of the higher orders, I understand the rational, but where do you draw the lines between inclusion and exclusion and how do we really know what's in a person's heart. Overacceptance can be a problem. What is right acceptance? There is a recent book on Radical Compassion, exact title/author not remembered at the moment.Some good examples on the problem. Deerfield Lodge had that author, if you want to go further. All in all, I think the theos- talk group who seem diverse enough, are a respectful bunch and really make a good effort to work through differences. I also notice that ts-ers become very silent when they do not want to answer certain questions or issues, perhaps when they are wrong and are unwilling to make corrections. I have had a several good experience with a wrong that was done and was corrected. That was hopeful. In other cases, there seems to be no mechanism for resolving differences or healing issues between people. The point is that there is often more contention than harmony. Am I projecting? That's also possible. Maybe this is about 4th Ray conflict on the way to harmony? I leave this post with more questions that answers. I do believe there is a lack of relationship healing effort and committment in certain ts circles. Perhaps I am over-sensitive or radically judgmental or just a pest on this issue. And maybe we are not really talking about the same thing here, which often happens in these chats. Maybe someone is able to help Regina -- Bart Lidofsky wrote: Regina St Clare wrote: > One and All, To me, the day when any one who calls himself a > theosophist can actually accept the point of view of another, without > defense or offense in thought, word or deed, then we will have the > true spirit of what HPB, in her best intention, flaws and all, was > dedicated to accomplishing. As a theosophist, you should know that things are not that simple. Do you believe that includes, for example, a belief in genocide? A belief that some people are naturally inferior to each other based on who their parents were? That people who have sexual preferences for the same gender are automatically evil? That seizing the property of the Theosophical Society for use by another organization is a right and proper thing to do? That there is only one path to the truth, and that everybody not following that path should drop it and follow that one true path? I don't think that Blavatsky would have any trouble with people having difficulty accepting those points of view. There is a difference between tolerance, respect, and acceptance. Bart Yahoo! Groups Links ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From clarity12.1@juno.com Mon Dec 06 11:23:20 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: clarity12.1@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97650 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 19:23:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 19:23:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com) (64.136.20.164) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 19:23:17 -0000 Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail26.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.166]) by smtpout03.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABA5KNL9AJS9EPJ for (sender ); Mon, 6 Dec 2004 11:22:07 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: 4ohJS0CGC59/Kp5GWNMAw5dioYqCpGgvuOg6Fxe/XaxBsiOksD+dZw== Received: (from clarity12.1@juno.com) by webmail26.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KD7LBK2T; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 11:21:17 PST Received: from [198.31.188.74] by webmail26.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:20:45 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:20:45 GMT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041206.112117.1427.82598@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 11:5:438449 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.136.20.164 From: "Regina St Clare" X-Originating-IP: [198.31.188.74] Subject: respect, toleranace and acceptance --distinctions. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=178968717 X-Yahoo-Profile: stclareregina Understand is a good word for accept. Acceptance does not mean agreement to me. It means that I accept that you are the way you are,not that I agree with it. To me this puts a circle of healing around the issue. Then one can allow the duality to find its balance. (ying/yang) We often do not hold the space for resolution, but become part of the reaction mechanism inherent in the personality realm. AS TS folks, it seems that we have the greater task of holding the ONE ness that has the healing Space that makes resolution of issues possible on either a small or large scale. If we do not begin in small ways, then how can we expect anything better in the large scale? Thanks for your reading of this Kristar, Regina -- "krishtar" wrote: It is plainly obvious that she didn´t mean this. Perhaps Regina didn´t use the correct word, what if she didn´t meant " accept" in the common sense but "understand", respect? Krishtar Original Message ----- From: Bart Lidofsky To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS Regina St Clare wrote: > One and All, To me, the day when any one who calls himself a > theosophist can actually accept the point of view of another, without > defense or offense in thought, word or deed, then we will have the > true spirit of what HPB, in her best intention, flaws and all, was > dedicated to accomplishing. As a theosophist, you should know that things are not that simple. Do you believe that includes, for example, a belief in genocide? A belief that some people are naturally inferior to each other based on who their parents were? That people who have sexual preferences for the same gender are automatically evil? That seizing the property of the Theosophical Society for use by another organization is a right and proper thing to do? That there is only one path to the truth, and that everybody not following that path should drop it and follow that one true path? I don't think that Blavatsky would have any trouble with people having difficulty accepting those points of view. There is a difference between tolerance, respect, and acceptance. Bart Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 06 12:24:49 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 32450 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 20:24:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 20:24:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 20:24:44 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbPPX-0006q5-SR for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 15:24:44 -0500 Message-ID: <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 15:24:44 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> In-Reply-To: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba9ecb26a48e83d36b843ed69b903c36160ca2637590cc961d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.67 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Regina St Clare wrote: > Radical compassion is the issue I think. How can we judge who is in > his heart is unsaved or unsavable? Where does Love thy Enemy come in? First of all, not all of us belong to the Cult of the Failed Messiah. Second of all, there is a difference between loving an enemy and loving the enemy's ideas. > And,yes, stealing property is an issue that needs legal attention and > hopefully justice. As for homosexuals,(though it is said that > Leadbeater was homosexual)or people in the meat industry/non > vegetarians not being accepted in the inner circles of the higher > orders, I understand the rational, but where do you draw the lines > between inclusion and exclusion and how do we really know what's in a > person's heart. Depends on what you mean by inclusion and exclusion. Frankly, the only membership application the New York Theosophical Society turned down when I was on the Board of Directors was one where the person specifically stated that they wished to join the NYTS for the purpose of using it as a base to start his own religion. > I also notice that ts-ers become very silent when they do not want to > answer certain questions or issues, perhaps when they are wrong and > are unwilling to make corrections. Sometimes, I will be silent on an issue because the person on the other side clearly has no intention of paying attention to anything I say, and saying it would be a waste of time and effort. > The point is that there is often more contention than harmony. Am I > projecting? That's also possible. And why is that a problem? > Maybe this is about 4th Ray conflict on the way to harmony? What's the 4th Ray? Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 06 12:24:58 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53181 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 20:24:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 20:24:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 20:24:52 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbPPg-0006tR-0u for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 15:24:52 -0500 Message-ID: <41B4BD9A.2040001@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 15:14:18 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041205.173322.3529.70036@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> <41B49A38.6090306@sprynet.com> <005b01c4dbc6$0ef8a400$0301010a@versus> In-Reply-To: <005b01c4dbc6$0ef8a400$0301010a@versus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba9ecb26a48e83d36b2eb4b2bd34465e81900f0771c95f4286350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.67 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar wrote: > It is plainly obvious that she didn´t mean this. Perhaps Regina > didn´t use the correct word, what if she didn´t meant " accept" in > the common sense but "understand", respect? "Understand" and "respect" don't fit in with the rest of her sentence: >> One and All, To me, the day when any one who calls himself a >> theosophist can actually accept the point of view of another, >> without defense or offense in thought, word or deed, then we will >> have the true spirit of what HPB, in her best intention, flaws and >> all, was dedicated to accomplishing. And, frankly, even "respect" does not make sense. At most, understanding and tolerance. I can understand a belief system that does not allow me to have my own; I can even tolerate it. But I'm not going to respect it. And there were plenty of religious beliefs H. P. Blavatsky did not respect, either. Bart From mhart@idirect.ca Mon Dec 06 12:39:33 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 39997 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 20:38:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 20:38:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 20:38:09 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.8] (helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CbPcS-0007zx-AI for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 20:38:04 +0000 Message-ID: <41B4C399.50906@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 15:39:53 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <8e.1bc5839b.2ee58626@cs.com> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=9.0 tests=HTML_30_40,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.125 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World re teachings/Masters today and in ancient Egypt, South Americ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn samblo@cs.com wrote: <> John, but then if she didn't take into account possible links/ramifications between the civilizers (Virachoca, Kukulkan, Quetzalcoetl, etc) in ancient South America and Mexico and elsewhere, on the one hand, and the various Masters per the Esoteric/Theosophical Tradition throughout the ages, on the other hand, seems to me that her investigations (like the investigations of those who tend to approach such studies with rather orthodox notions, initial assumptions) might be found to be somewhat lacking in terms of other possible explanations, possibly by some students of Theosophy, eg. <> Yes, and having recently read a three- quarter page article in the Toronto Star (Dec4/04, page A35) entitled "Scolars breathe 'fresh air,'" I tend to wonder about the direction that higher education, in general, is headed towards. Seems that Susan and Henry Giroux of Penn State University were, at one time, "leading lights" there as educators/scholars, but have moved to McMaster University in Canada.. I quote: <<... Giroux's belief that "dumbing-down and corporatization" is now at the centre of the U.S. governments agenda for education.>> In short, seems to me as if a number of adherents to orthodox views in archeology and the sciences are in many cases bowing or dumbing-down to various corporate and/or orthodox interests. And while some investigators may feel that they're independent, I suspect that in some cases their background education might have set them up with preconceived notions about history, in general, so that their invenstigations, in S.A., eg, might be biased and lacking in some sort of broader perspective as to what might have occurred, how, why. I tend to interpret Hancock's "Finger-prints of the Gods" as saying, in effect, that the various people in S.A. and Mexico who were taught in ancient times by the civilizers were basically rather backward, and I suspect that all or most of their apparently advanced culture (as might be seen reflected in calendars, buldings, etc) was inherited more or less intact from the earlier civilizers. I read that the civilizers at one point managed to stop the ongoing human sacrifices, eg, but apparently the sacrifices were resumed and intensified after those civilizers left. So I'm tending to suspect that there was much dumbing down in S.A. and Mexico before and after the civilizers, because of which I tend to view their (Mayan, Aztec, etc) interpretations with suspicion, one of those being the Mayan interpretation about the "end of the cycle" on Dec23/2012 (per the "Mayan calendar"). <> And according to Hancock the advances in culture and technology had occurred rapidly, in the space of a few years, as in the case of ancient Egypt and elsewhere. If one compares that kind of evolution with, eg, the evolution of the automobile, the differences become curious, don't you think ... In other words, the earlist writings and building techniques in ancient Egypt, SA and elsewhere seem to be, in many cases, apparently, far more advanced than the later ones. Seems to me as if the civilizers might have seen some sort of window of karmic opportunity to help the more backward races just after the previous cycle or major world catastrophe, but they then seem to have stepped back. << I am not quite sure how you mean "corporate" in your usage. >> How about considerations about financial rewards and punishments ... Apparently there are people who have worries/concerns about how they can pay for their houses, cars, kid's tuition, etc. Apparently there are people who might tend to go along with whatever "corporate" or orthodox agenda might best help them financially or by way of whatever form of imagined prestige, even if dumbing down is required along the way. A positive angle on all that might be that least today's humans have made some advances in how human sacrifice is practiced ... <> In case you missed it, I repeat, with additions: I've been under the impression that humans and elementals might, under certain circumstances, enter into certain co-operative efforts, but that elementals, on their own, might not be capable of producing typical crop circles, eg. As for "more important things to do" re Masters, I suspect that they would tend to have their hands tied, in effect, by karma, so that (possibly ...) their efforts to help might be somewhat limited to various kinds of influences (such as by way of crop circles, possibly ...) that would not be counter to karmic allowances. Of course I don't know whether from the perspective of Masters (per linages such as KH and M, eg ...) the production of typical crop circles for the purpose of affecting humankind, in whatever sense, would be within karmic allowances (ie, whether such circles are interpreted/reacted-to subliminally or otherwise). <> Seems to me that your last sentence there might be interpreted as a reference to an example of dumbing down and corporatizing. Anyway, I figure that students of Theosophy might find Hancock's books interesting. Speculatively, Mauri From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 06 13:15:03 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63509 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 21:15:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 21:15:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 21:15:01 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [200.138.238.173]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA1D3347E for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:14:59 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Mon, 06 Dec 2004 19:14:53 -0200 Message-ID: <00d001c4dbd8$a12398a0$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041205.173322.3529.70036@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> <41B49A38.6090306@sprynet.com> <005b01c4dbc6$0ef8a400$0301010a@versus> <41B4BD9A.2040001@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:14:53 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Semantics, concepts, correction, criticism. Accept, understand, tolerate, consent.. So many words, one for each occasion. Frankly, we all have different levels of understanding. From: Bart Lidofsky=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 6:14 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS krishtar wrote: > It is plainly obvious that she didn=B4t mean this. Perhaps Regina > didn=B4t use the correct word, what if she didn=B4t meant " accept" in > the common sense but "understand", respect? "Understand" and "respect" don't fit in with the rest of her sentence: >> One and All, To me, the day when any one who calls himself a=20 >> theosophist can actually accept the point of view of another, >> without defense or offense in thought, word or deed, then we will >> have the true spirit of what HPB, in her best intention, flaws and >> all, was dedicated to accomplishing. And, frankly, even "respect" does not make sense. At most,=20 understanding and tolerance. I can understand a belief system that does=20 not allow me to have my own; I can even tolerate it. But I'm not going=20 to respect it. And there were plenty of religious beliefs H. P.=20 Blavatsky did not respect, either. Bart =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From clarity12.1@juno.com Mon Dec 06 13:41:34 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: clarity12.1@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 9904 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 21:41:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 21:41:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com) (64.136.20.164) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 21:41:19 -0000 Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail31.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.171]) by smtpout03.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABA5KWRBAUPGAEA for (sender ); Mon, 6 Dec 2004 13:40:49 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: 4ohJS0CGC59/Kp5GWNMAw5dioYqCpGgv6mysOV3Em2xrTaNviH7kIQ== Received: (from clarity12.1@juno.com) by webmail31.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KD7UAJYF; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 13:40:32 PST Received: from [68.44.16.38] by webmail31.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 21:40:10 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 21:40:10 GMT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041206.134032.12460.86234@webmail31.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 10:5:2959191266 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.136.20.164 From: "Regina St Clare" X-Originating-IP: [68.44.16.38] Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=178968717 X-Yahoo-Profile: stclareregina The only way we will have any communication of value is to seek to understand each other, not to attack every word, as though one is being attacked. If one talks from personal experience, then that experience is valid, regardless of another's view of it. If we are to experience any sense of oneness, we make the effort to understand, which requires basic respect, and more than just tolerance. I use the words specifically to mean a respect for all life tolerance of those things that I do not like, believe or understand understanding/acceptance of the suffering, which can be alleviated in my ability to seek to understand, or ACCEPT in the altruistic sense, not the agreement sense. Yes, I did use acceptance in a special way, as in to embrace, symbolically, like the circle that contains the duality in the Ying Yang symbol. Kristar picked up on it. I am not a Christian cultist, as implied. Saved means to be redeemed of error, which is part of the practice of discernment, but this may be where some ts folks have no tolerance. >From a Taoist POV, dharma corrects karma, when we make mistakes, we seek to correct. Otherwise we learn and share our knowledge in a respectful, helpful way. When we are not truly helping one another understand, what are we doing? Regina -- "krishtar" wrote: Semantics, concepts, correction, criticism. Accept, understand, tolerate, consent.. So many words, one for each occasion. Frankly, we all have different levels of understanding. From: Bart Lidofsky To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 6:14 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS krishtar wrote: > It is plainly obvious that she didn´t mean this. Perhaps Regina > didn´t use the correct word, what if she didn´t meant " accept" in > the common sense but "understand", respect? "Understand" and "respect" don't fit in with the rest of her sentence: >> One and All, To me, the day when any one who calls himself a >> theosophist can actually accept the point of view of another, >> without defense or offense in thought, word or deed, then we will >> have the true spirit of what HPB, in her best intention, flaws and >> all, was dedicated to accomplishing. And, frankly, even "respect" does not make sense. At most, understanding and tolerance. I can understand a belief system that does not allow me to have my own; I can even tolerate it. But I'm not going to respect it. And there were plenty of religious beliefs H. P. Blavatsky did not respect, either. Bart Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From jjhe@charter.net Mon Dec 06 13:41:44 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjhe@charter.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 43101 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 21:41:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 21:41:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxsf22.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.28.222) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 21:41:32 -0000 Received: from mxip13.cluster1.charter.net (mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.143]) by mxsf22.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iB6LfUUe011086 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 16:41:31 -0500 Received: from 68-116-80-89.ca.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (68.116.80.89) by mxip13.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 06 Dec 2004 16:41:29 -0500 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.87,127,1099285200"; d="scan'208"; a="638091381:sNHT13679538" Message-ID: <41B4D20A.2040000@charter.net> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 13:41:30 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-GB; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.225.28.222 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: Theos-World Hall of Magic Mirrors by Victor Endersby Online X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106201926 If anyone is interested in unread original copies of this book, they are available at: Wizards Bookshelf P.O. Box 6600 San Diego, CA 92166 or Nautilus Books 325 North Broadway Turlock, CA 95380 Price: $13.00 plus $3.00 postage. --j Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: >I have just been informed by a >correspondent that > >THE HALL OF MAGIC MIRRORS >by Victor Endersby > >is now available online >at: > >http://tinyurl.com/489h8 > >This book published in 1969 is a >study of H.P. Blavatsky's life and >work with a special look at the >attacks against her including >an analysis of the Hodgson Report. > > >It brings back fond memories of 1969 >when I first read this book. > >Daniel >http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 06 13:43:01 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61548 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 21:42:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 21:42:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 21:42:43 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [200.138.238.173]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3923B33ED8 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:42:38 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Mon, 06 Dec 2004 19:42:32 -0200 Message-ID: <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:42:32 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends I once asked the group some views about the writings of Osho, which are so = popular and well read today. I admit that there had been a lot of hoaxes about his image but if we pay a= ttention to his points of view it is very interesting and he got a brillian= t and poetical way at looking and observing this world. When I wrote at that time all I got from the question "did Osho have a theo= sophic mind ?" all I read were two members' similar answers: One immediatel= y answered something like " if a bioterrorist can be called a theosophist h= e did have " and the other I don=B4t remember. Se how limited to a kind of ready-made criticism, to pre-formed concepts we= become!!! We become bitter! Do we become like that when we get very much older and still in the theosop= hical path? By this way we loose many opotunities of knowing other writers=B4 point of = views. It shows us that many of us who are so much time involved directly in the T= heosophical Society or its branches sometimes lose the poesy and become so = critical, that we become bitter.. farer and farer from drinking from the w= ine of the enlightenment. Here we are, criticizing, acting like judges as if we were in an higher pos= ition than the other. Krishtar=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jjhe@charter.net Mon Dec 06 14:20:03 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjhe@charter.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 16957 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 22:20:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 22:20:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxsf30.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.28.230) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 22:20:02 -0000 Received: from mxip12.cluster1.charter.net (mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.142]) by mxsf30.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iB6MK1BG013986 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 17:20:01 -0500 Received: from 68-116-80-89.ca.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (68.116.80.89) by mxip12.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 06 Dec 2004 17:20:01 -0500 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.87,127,1099285200"; d="scan'208"; a="651520858:sNHT12633274" Message-ID: <41B4DB11.2080802@charter.net> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 14:20:01 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-GB; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.225.28.230 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Victor Endersby, Michael Gomes, Ted Davy etc. Keeping the Link Unbroken X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106201926 Michael Gomes has recently published a book: "Keeping the Link Unbroken: Theosophical Studies Presented to Ted G. Davy on His Seventy-Fifth Birthday." It is a collection of fourteen original essays by Theosophists associated with Ted and/or the Canadian Theosophist. One essay (written by myself) is titled "Victor A. Endersby, A Pioneering Independent Theosophist." It includes a lot of previously unpublished comments by Endersby regarding the Theosophical Movement. Other articles include: "Anagarika Dharmapala at the World's Parliament of Religions" by Michael Gomes; "An Early Attempt at Fraternization" (re. A.E.S. Smythe) by James Santucci; "Ozymandias: Why Do We Do What We Do?" by John Patrick Deveney; "Esoteric Christianity Reconsidered" by Leslie Price; Biographical Noates on Sri B.P. Wadia" by Dallas TenBroeck; "The Previous Buddhas" by Robert Hutwohl; "The First Fundamental Proposition of the Secret Doctrine" by David Reigle; The Secret Doctrine of the Rabbis" by Hen J. Spierenburg. Other essays by Doris Davy, Ernest Pelletier, Joan Sutcliffe, John Robert Colombo. New York: Theosophical Research Monographs, 2004. 197 pp. Soft bound, frontis., historical photos. Price: $20.00 plus $3.00 Postage. Available from: Nautilus Books 325 North Broadway Turlock, CA. 95380 Email me for more information. --j From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 06 14:25:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 19220 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 22:25:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 22:25:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 22:25:07 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbRI2-0004Jv-QW for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:25:06 -0500 Message-ID: <41B4DC43.8010905@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:25:07 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041205.173322.3529.70036@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> <41B49A38.6090306@sprynet.com> <005b01c4dbc6$0ef8a400$0301010a@versus> <41B4BD9A.2040001@sprynet.com> <00d001c4dbd8$a12398a0$0301010a@versus> In-Reply-To: <00d001c4dbd8$a12398a0$0301010a@versus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbadb3951dda2861580e7b535ed24eec09b301ee85fcf877b1e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.61 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar wrote: > Semantics, concepts, correction, criticism. > Accept, understand, tolerate, consent.. > So many words, one for each occasion. > Frankly, we all have different levels of understanding. Uncritical acceptance is not understanding. Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 06 14:35:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 56280 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 22:35:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 22:35:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 22:35:35 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbRS8-0002r1-Oz for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:35:32 -0500 Message-ID: <41B4DEB5.3070208@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:35:33 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041206.134032.12460.86234@webmail31.nyc.untd.com> In-Reply-To: <20041206.134032.12460.86234@webmail31.nyc.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbadb3951dda286158012bc33178216fc1d08a8bb3e8e732a70350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.61 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Regina St Clare wrote: > The only way we will have any communication of value is to seek to > understand each other, not to attack every word, as though one is > being attacked. You mean your statements about the Theosophical Society weren't attacks? They sure looked like attacks to me. > If one talks from personal experience, then that > experience is valid, regardless of another's view of it. Personal experience, or one's interpretation of personal experience? > If we are to experience any sense of oneness, we make the effort to > understand, which requires basic respect, and more than just > tolerance. Does that include Christian Identity, for example? How about the Ku Klux Klan? I try to understand them, and I tolerate the beliefs as long as they do not translate into action. Are you asking me to respect them, as well? > I am not a Christian cultist, as implied. But you DID imply. You asked, "Where does Love thy Enemy come in?" It is part of the theology of the Cult of the Failed Messiah. It is a religious statement, for a particular religion. And the fact that you stated it as if the belief was a given implies a confusion of religious belief and fact. > Saved means to be redeemed > of error, which is part of the practice of discernment, but this may > be where some ts folks have no tolerance. Do not confuse disagreement with intolerance. Also, do not confuse refusal to join a religion as intolerance. Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 06 14:37:26 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 50039 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 22:37:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 22:37:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 22:37:26 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbRTd-0003pa-J3 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:37:05 -0500 Message-ID: <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:37:06 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> In-Reply-To: <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbadb3951dda286158063cdae623846a92487b2572753744e27350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.61 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar wrote: > I once asked the group some views about the writings of Osho, which > are so popular and well read today. I admit that there had been a lot > of hoaxes about his image but if we pay attention to his points of > view it is very interesting and he got a brilliant and poetical way > at looking and observing this world. Are you referring to his criminal convictions as "hoaxes"? The people who were hospitalized by his bioterrorism didn't consider it to be a "hoax". Bart From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 06 14:59:55 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40608 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 22:59:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 22:59:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 22:59:54 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-215-103-165.jvece7001.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.215.103.165]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A2B33EDC for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 20:59:50 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Mon, 06 Dec 2004 20:59:44 -0200 Message-ID: <011601c4dbe7$46ff95e0$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 20:59:44 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Were you also hospitalized over there, at that time? K ----- Original Message ----- From: Bart Lidofsky To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 8:37 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho krishtar wrote: > I once asked the group some views about the writings of Osho, which > are so popular and well read today. I admit that there had been a lot > of hoaxes about his image but if we pay attention to his points of > view it is very interesting and he got a brilliant and poetical way > at looking and observing this world. Are you referring to his criminal convictions as "hoaxes"? The people who were hospitalized by his bioterrorism didn't consider it to be a "hoax". Bart Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Dec 06 15:59:09 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73193 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 23:59:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 23:59:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.69) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 23:59:08 -0000 Received: from [209.179.128.179] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbSkt-0004Lz-WD; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 18:59:02 -0500 To: Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 15:58:52 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c4dbef$8dfd2220$b380b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79723b9f0d1970eed3e2a09782417f1716350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.69 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.128.179 Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE: THAT LOVE X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 6 2004 Dear Cass: Very interesting -- will review carefully. Some differences in terminology. Ideas to be extracted. ******************************************* The Books teach Darkness was, at first of all, And Brahm, sole meditating in that Night: Look not for Brahm and the Beginning there! Nor him, nor any light Shall any gazer see with mortal eyes, Or any searcher know by mortal mind, VEIL AFTER VEIL WILL LIFT -- BUT THERE MUST BE VEIL UPON VEIL BEHIND. * * * * * PRAY NOT! THE DARKNESS WILL NOT BRIGHTEN! ASK NOUGHT FROM THE SILENCE, FOR IT CANNOT SPEAK! Vex not your mournful minds with pious pains!=20 If ye lay bound upon the wheel of change, And no way were of breaking from the chain, The Heart of boundless Being is a curse, The Soul of Things fell Pain.=20 Ye are not bound! the Soul of Things is sweet, The Heart of Being is celestial rest; Stronger than woe is will: that which was Good Doth pass to Better -- Best. LIGHT ON THE PATH OF ASIA BOOK 8 ******************************************** THESE instructions are for those ignorant of the dangers of the lower IDDHI= . (1) He who would hear the voice of Nada, (2) "the Soundless Sound," and comprehend it, he has to learn the nature of Dharana. (3) Having become indifferent to objects of perception, the pupil must seek out the Rajah =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Foot notes (2). The "Soundless Voice," or the "Voice of the Silence." Literally perhap= s this would read "Voice in the Spiritual Sound," as Nada is the equivalent word in Sanskrit, for the Senzar term. (3). Dharana, is the intense and perfect concentration of the mind upon som= e one interior object, accompanied by complete abstraction from everything pertaining to the external Universe, or the world of the senses. -------------------------------------------- 2 of the senses, the Thought-Producer, he who awakes illusion. The Mind is the great Slayer of the Real. Let the Disciple slay the Slayer. For-- When to himself his form appears unreal, as do on waking all the forms he sees in dreams; When he has ceased to hear the many, he may discern the ONE-the inner sound which kills the outer.=20 Then only, not till then, shall he forsake the region of Asat, the false, t= o come unto the realm of Sat, the true. Before the soul can see, the Harmony within must be attained, and fleshly eyes be rendered blind to all illusion. Before the Soul can hear, the image (man) has to become as deaf to roarings as to whispers, to cries of bellowing elephants as to the silvery buzzing o= f the golden fire-fly. 3 BEFORE THE SOUL CAN COMPREHEND AND MAY REMEMBER, SHE MUST UNTO THE SILENT SPEAKER BE UNITED JUST AS THE FORM TO WHICH THE CLAY IS MODELLED, IS FIRST UNITED WITH THE POTTER'S MIND. FOR THEN THE SOUL WILL HEAR, AND WILL REMEMBER. AND THEN TO THE INNER EAR WILL SPEAK-- THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE And say: If thy Soul smiles while bathing in the Sunlight of thy Life; if thy Soul sings within her chrysalis of flesh and matter; if thy Soul weeps inside he= r castle of illusion; if thy Soul struggles to break the silver thread that binds her to the MASTER; (1) know, O Disciple, thy Soul is of the earth. When to the World's turmoil thy budding =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Foot note (1). The "great Master" is the term used by Lanoos or Chelas to indicate one's "HIGHER SELF." It is the equivalent of Avalokitesvara, and the same a= s Adi-Budha with the Buddhist Occultists, ATMAN the "Self" (the Higher Self) with the Brahmins, and CHRISTOS with the ancient Gnostics. ----------------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Dallas PS I sek to understand this. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: cassilva48@optusnet.com.au [mailto:cassilva48@optusnet.com.au]=20 Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 9:10 PM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] RE: THAT LOVE Dear Dallas, These were notes taken at a TS meeting many years ago. PRE MANIFESTATION - PRALAYA - laya state. In this state Cosmic Ideation is non existent. Cosmic substance is resolved back into its primary state of abstract "potential" objectivity. Manifestation in potential. WE SEE ONLY THE EFFECTS OF THE MANIFESTATION, WE CAN NEVER SEE THE MANIFESTOR. UNMANIFESTED - COSMIC IDEATION NON EXISTENT. THE BOUNDLESS, IMMUTABLE PRINCIPLE, PARABRAHMAN TAT - THE BOUNDLESS, THE LIMITLESS : PARA=3D BEYOND IT IS =3D BENESS. This is what I refer to when I speak of 'NOT THAT. This, according to my notes, KNOWS ONLY ITSELF. From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 06 16:46:52 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63168 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 00:46:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 00:46:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 00:46:48 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-215-103-165.jvece7001.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.215.103.165]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 681BA33F02 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 22:46:46 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Mon, 06 Dec 2004 22:46:40 -0200 Message-ID: <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 22:46:40 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bart wrote:=20 Are you referring to his criminal convictions as "hoaxes"? The people=20 who were hospitalized by his bioterrorism didn't consider it to be a=20 "hoax". ...........................................................................= ...................................................... Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read what he said, there is nothing I can say, but if yo= u did you would not believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by = its fruits. If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington=B4s "The Mme= . Blavatsky=B4s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is similar...one w= ill think she was a liar and a fraud. Not that I want to use this list to promulgate any aplogies about Osho =B4s= work, but I tried to read first about him from many sources, and then, wha= t he wrote and I got impressed. One book that I read about his success, talks about his secretary when apa= rently took away and decamped with all the org=B4s funds and also maitained= those secret labs inside the mandir. When the police came to the mandir Osho opened his doors to all the agents = and even he was not aware of that " paralell government " of his "disciples= " interests. The intoxication was real Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody wh= o always talked openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody a= ppreciates it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a cri= minal. Principally with the long time tradition of USA being scared about t= errorism and the control of " suspect" people. If you seek you=B4ll find the true story. It is in your right to keep this simplified version in mind, the choice is = yours. He never practised bioterrorism. Not him.=20 That is what I believe and I had to say. K ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bart Lidofsky=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 8:37 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho krishtar wrote: > I once asked the group some views about the writings of Osho, which > are so popular and well read today. I admit that there had been a lot > of hoaxes about his image but if we pay attention to his points of > view it is very interesting and he got a brilliant and poetical way > at looking and observing this world. Are you referring to his criminal convictions as "hoaxes"? The people=20 who were hospitalized by his bioterrorism didn't consider it to be a=20 "hoax". Bart =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 06 17:45:22 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 50136 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 01:45:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 01:45:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.158) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 01:45:20 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-215-103-165.jvece7001.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.215.103.165]) by smtp2.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6903486 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 23:45:17 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Mon, 06 Dec 2004 23:44:59 -0200 Message-ID: <018601c4dbfe$5c5580a0$0301010a@versus> To: Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 23:44:58 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.158 From: "krishtar" Subject: Fw: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bart wrote: " Uncritical acceptance is not understanding." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Is this a law? IMO it depends on what "understanding" means for us. It depends on the frui= ts that we ladle in our life for being a critic person. Do we learn more being a criticizer? Do we help others being thus critic? You said we have to stabilish a criticism about one thing to understanding = it. So the Rishis and true yogis didn=B4t understand anything because they just= contemplate with no idea or critic in mind and that=B4s is what they teach= us up today. And what if we just try to look at it with no preconceived, just as they di= d? I gess observation has greater worth than criticizing. Many members of this list just sit and watch. Observing teaches more than criticizing. When we put our perceptions into words, they start loosing the essence. The less we feed our mind with words and concepts, the easier it is to unde= rstand, to realise things. Over-charged mind is like a truck with overload. Difficult to control. Once we cannot control it, how can we truly realise the drift of things? Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bart Lidofsky=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 8:25 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS krishtar wrote: > Semantics, concepts, correction, criticism. > Accept, understand, tolerate, consent.. > So many words, one for each occasion. > Frankly, we all have different levels of understanding. Uncritical acceptance is not understanding. Bart =20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 06 21:13:20 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 47318 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 05:13:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 05:13:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 05:13:19 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbXf4-0007UI-QH for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 07 Dec 2004 00:13:19 -0500 Message-ID: <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 00:13:20 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> In-Reply-To: <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba52cf2ed0768e3e5cc50d78590bf3b2d9f83aa984341be17f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.66 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar wrote: > Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read what > he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not > believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writings. > If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington´s "The > Mme. Blavatsky´s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is > similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud. Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky really were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to Blavatsky. > government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was real > Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked > openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody appreciates > it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a > criminal. So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practised > bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered him to be a holy man: http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html Bart From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Tue Dec 07 01:31:38 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75942 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 09:31:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 09:31:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 09:31:37 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [200.102.28.39]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E9A93494 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2004 07:31:35 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Tue, 07 Dec 2004 07:31:14 -0200 Message-ID: <001601c4dc3f$7eeb0b80$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 07:31:14 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bart=20 As usual these exchange of roughness and harshness leads no nothing. There is nothing anyone can say to those who don=B4t want to believe. K ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bart Lidofsky=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho krishtar wrote: > Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read what > he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not > believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writings. > If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington=B4s "The > Mme. Blavatsky=B4s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is > similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud.=20 Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer=20 review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky really=20 were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to=20 Blavatsky. > government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was real > Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked > openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody appreciates > it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a > criminal.=20 So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practised > bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered him=20 to be a holy man: http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html Bart =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Tue Dec 07 08:17:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 43152 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 16:17:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 16:17:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.37) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 16:17:48 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Dec 2004 16:16:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.183] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Dec 2004 16:16:55 -0000 X-Sender: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72517 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 15:55:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 15:55:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web41510.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.93.93) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 15:55:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 4136 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Dec 2004 15:55:09 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=kzpehqRs+xUYdAvpqAcb/3IFk0fJKC7UtmBU8lHOnmtWKkdcGsdPgvsYhqS/CPDKSGTDjJ2MWqWS+pfsw6FCtcmc/gY9mK6ZM/EvqFNjeYNKs6sr/LDs/D2ikE4+TNXWcYV1HgdSqURKDZE1IkOaDLhlV4wJk5NmiIVhk8pPbSA= ; Message-ID: <20041207155509.4134.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [148.177.1.213] by web41510.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 07 Dec 2004 07:55:09 PST Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 07:55:09 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <001601c4dc3f$7eeb0b80$0301010a@versus> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.93.93 From: Towers1209 Reply-To: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -- and Intro X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=205723283 X-Yahoo-Profile: traveller1209 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 07 Dec 2004 16:16:22 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.37 Hello, Everyone. =20 I am Loreto and had been lurking reading, gleaning whatever" wisdom" there = is that I can find in the discussions and putting things that don''t matter= to me to the trash bin. =20 Unfortunately, Bart, kristar is right. Whatever wisdom it is that you tryi= ng to share with everyone (I hope you are; and not just simply ranting and = raving about everything and almost everyone that you do not agree with) is= lost in all the ranting, raving and sanity-questioning of almost everyone = that you don't agree with, that I see in your posts. =20 A situation that may be unlike Osho's but nevertheless, energetically, very= much alike -- the negative outbalanced the positive (and I hope there are = some that I probably missed). =20 So much so that I have decided, starting yesterday, to just direct to emai= l Trash whatever comes from "Bart Lidofsky" ". =20 Thanks; and bowing out for the moment. =20 Loreto krishtar wrote: Bart=20 As usual these exchange of roughness and harshness leads no nothing. There is nothing anyone can say to those who don=B4t want to believe. K ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bart Lidofsky=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho krishtar wrote: > Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read what > he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not > believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writings. > If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington=B4s "The > Mme. Blavatsky=B4s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is > similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud.=20 Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer=20 review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky really=20 were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to=20 Blavatsky. > government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was real > Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked > openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody appreciates > it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a > criminal.=20 So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practised > bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered him=20 to be a holy man: http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html Bart Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Tue Dec 07 09:41:06 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 19601 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 17:41:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 17:41:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx01.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.11) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 17:41:05 -0000 Received: from 3e6b1f73.rev.stofanet.dk ([62.107.31.115] helo=khidr) by mx01.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1CbjKg-0007yB-2y for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 07 Dec 2004 18:41:02 +0100 Message-ID: <003401c4dc84$39a5d6a0$731f6b3e@khidr> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 18:43:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 212.10.10.11 From: "M. Sufilight" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo friends and all, My views are: I think I have referred to the below words before. But I will gladly state them again: "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy, or the competence of another man or institution, he must first learn something which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his perception itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'. This is 'Learning How To Learn." That is why it is better to seek Learning than to discuss Osho and others on a level which leads practically almost nowhere, but into the realms of emotional and intellectual stimulations. As it was said: We shall know them on their fruits. (I know what I think when I compare Blavatsky with either Krishnamurti or Osho. But Learning and Knowledge are both important and should not be avoided and exchanged for mere emotionalism or intellecutal analysing. ) >:-) Let us not just stimulate the emotions. Let us seek to learn and to teach the inner esoterical organ. Well this was just a few views. Now I have one single - and still unanswered question: Was Idries Shah the teacher mentioned by Blavatsky, who possibly would arrive after the years 1975 ? http://www.sufis.org/shah.html from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho > > krishtar wrote: >> Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read what >> he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not >> believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. > > That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writings. > >> If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington´s "The >> Mme. Blavatsky´s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is >> similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud. > > Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer > review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky really > were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to > Blavatsky. > >> government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was real >> Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked >> openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody appreciates >> it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a >> criminal. > > So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > >> simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practised >> bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. > > Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered him > to be a holy man: > > http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html > > Bart > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Tue Dec 07 11:48:06 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35833 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 19:48:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 19:48:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 19:48:04 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [201.11.83.55]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC4C53493 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2004 17:48:01 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:47:50 -0200 Message-ID: <006201c4dc95$a240a580$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <003401c4dc84$39a5d6a0$731f6b3e@khidr> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 17:47:50 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Morten Sincerely, I never read a book by Idries, although I had seen one in a book= store months ago. I am a total ignorant on Sufism... Maybe you could help me giving the lightest books=B4 list for a beginner...= yep? Waiting Krishtar _______________________________________ About Rajneesh: I didn=B4t mean to discuss in that level Morten, I was just trying to find= someone here that could trade a few impressions on him, with open mind and= with no preconceived ideas. A theosophist as one said have to look for the= truth and answers to his question-marks with dilligence, wisdom, or I woul= dn=B4t take my time, sit and read and write with my poor eenglisch ( smile)= , I am an ignorant looking for answers and, as human I am, I get a bit ann= oyed with the lack of empathy and compassion by many who even occupied impo= rtant positions inside TS and its branches. Not only over here but in many = places. We sometimes criticize many old theosophers from the beginning of the movem= ent but nowadays we see that these criticisms come from people who seem tha= t daily they loose the rare oportunities to be gentle and warmhearted when = a single divergence arrises. If the group or media did not permit a true and openminded freedom of thoug= ht with respect and empathy there is no worth in discussing such important = matters. It is just a sincere and though imprecise point of view. K ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M. Sufilight=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo friends and all, My views are: I think I have referred to the below words before. But I will gladly state them again: "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy, or the competence of another man or institution, he must first learn something which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his perception itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'. This is 'Learning How To Learn." That is why it is better to seek Learning than to discuss Osho and others= on=20 a level which leads practically almost nowhere, but into the realms of emotional = and=20 intellectual stimulations. As it was said: We shall know them on their fruits. (I know what I think when I compare Blavatsky with either Krishnamurti or= =20 Osho. But Learning and Knowledge are both important and should not be=20 avoided and exchanged for mere emotionalism or intellecutal analysing. ) >:-) Let us not just stimulate the emotions. Let us seek to learn and to teach= =20 the inner esoterical organ. Well this was just a few views. Now I have one single - and still unanswered question: Was Idries Shah the teacher mentioned by Blavatsky, who possibly would=20 arrive after the years 1975 ? http://www.sufis.org/shah.html from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho > > krishtar wrote: >> Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read what >> he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not >> believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. > > That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writings. > >> If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington=B4s "Th= e >> Mme. Blavatsky=B4s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is >> similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud. > > Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer > review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky really > were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to > Blavatsky. > >> government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was real >> Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked >> openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody appreciates >> it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a >> criminal. > > So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > >> simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practised >> bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. > > Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered him > to be a holy man: > > http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html > > Bart > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > >=20 =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Tue Dec 07 12:13:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 80199 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 20:13:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 20:13:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx02.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.12) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 20:13:05 -0000 Received: from 3e6b1f73.rev.stofanet.dk ([62.107.31.115] helo=khidr) by mx02.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1Cblhc-0004h5-2e for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:12:52 +0100 Message-ID: <000401c4dc99$706e2470$731f6b3e@khidr> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <003401c4dc84$39a5d6a0$731f6b3e@khidr> <006201c4dc95$a240a580$0301010a@versus> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 21:15:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 212.10.10.12 From: "M. Sufilight" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Krishtar and all, My views are: 1. First. I am not saying that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone. 2. Second. I could suggest the books a) first "The Sufis" and b) secondly "The Way of the Sufi" as some of the first books to get aquainted with. The Octagon Press who is behind the books has (as far as I know) a policy, which has sought to make the books available in nearly every large library (at least) in the western hemisphere. So you could try one of the big libraries in your neighbourhood and see if they have the books mentioned. Idries Shah's teachings has in fact many similarities to esoteric Adwaita and the Upanishad teachings as well as Esoteric Buddhism - if one cares to read behind the veils of the dead-letter. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Dear Morten Sincerely, I never read a book by Idries, although I had seen one in a bookstore months ago. I am a total ignorant on Sufism... Maybe you could help me giving the lightest books´ list for a beginner...yep? Waiting Krishtar _______________________________________ About Rajneesh: I didn´t mean to discuss in that level Morten, I was just trying to find someone here that could trade a few impressions on him, with open mind and with no preconceived ideas. A theosophist as one said have to look for the truth and answers to his question-marks with dilligence, wisdom, or I wouldn´t take my time, sit and read and write with my poor eenglisch ( smile), I am an ignorant looking for answers and, as human I am, I get a bit annoyed with the lack of empathy and compassion by many who even occupied important positions inside TS and its branches. Not only over here but in many places. We sometimes criticize many old theosophers from the beginning of the movement but nowadays we see that these criticisms come from people who seem that daily they loose the rare oportunities to be gentle and warmhearted when a single divergence arrises. If the group or media did not permit a true and openminded freedom of thought with respect and empathy there is no worth in discussing such important matters. It is just a sincere and though imprecise point of view. K ----- Original Message ----- From: M. Sufilight To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo friends and all, My views are: I think I have referred to the below words before. But I will gladly state them again: "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy, or the competence of another man or institution, he must first learn something which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his perception itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'. This is 'Learning How To Learn." That is why it is better to seek Learning than to discuss Osho and others on a level which leads practically almost nowhere, but into the realms of emotional and intellectual stimulations. As it was said: We shall know them on their fruits. (I know what I think when I compare Blavatsky with either Krishnamurti or Osho. But Learning and Knowledge are both important and should not be avoided and exchanged for mere emotionalism or intellecutal analysing. ) >:-) Let us not just stimulate the emotions. Let us seek to learn and to teach the inner esoterical organ. Well this was just a few views. Now I have one single - and still unanswered question: Was Idries Shah the teacher mentioned by Blavatsky, who possibly would arrive after the years 1975 ? http://www.sufis.org/shah.html from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho > > krishtar wrote: >> Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read what >> he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not >> believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. > > That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writings. > >> If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington´s "The >> Mme. Blavatsky´s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is >> similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud. > > Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer > review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky really > were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to > Blavatsky. > >> government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was real >> Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked >> openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody appreciates >> it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a >> criminal. > > So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > >> simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practised >> bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. > > Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered him > to be a holy man: > > http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html > > Bart > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Tue Dec 07 12:13:37 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 48862 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 20:13:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 20:13:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.net4india.com) (202.71.129.73) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 20:13:35 -0000 Received: from [61.1.104.137] (helo=k1) by smtp.net4india.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1Cblmf-0005AY-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 01:48:05 +0530 Message-ID: <005301c4dc99$31265800$8968013d@k1> To: Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 01:42:46 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.71.129.73 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Work of the Masters X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: anand_gholap_1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit www.AnandGholap.net Below are passages that explain to some extent work of the Masters for humanity. " They aid, in countless ways, the progress of humanity. From the highest sphere they shed down light and life on all the world, that may be taken up and assimilated, as freely as the sunshine, by all who are receptive enough to take it in. As the physical world lives by the life of God, focused by the sun, so does the spiritual world live by that same life, focused by the Occult Hierarchy. Next, the Masters specially connected with religions use these religions as reservoirs into which they pour spiritual energy, to be distributed to the faithful in each religion through the duly appointed "means of grace". Next comes the great intellectual work, wherein the Masters send out thought-forms of high intellectual power to be caught up by men of genius, assimilated by them and given out to the world; on this level also they send out their wishes to their disciples, notifying them of the tasks to which they should set their hands. Then comes the work in the lower mental world, the generation of the thought-forms which influence the concrete mind and guide it along useful lines of activity in this world, and the teaching of those who are living in the heavenly world. Then the large activities of the intermediate world, the helping of the so-called dead, the general direction and supervision of the teaching of the younger pupils and the sending of aid in numberless cases of need. In the physical world the watching of the tendencies of events, the correction and neutralizing, as far as law permits, of evil cur rents, the constant balancing of the forces that work for and against evolution, the strengthening of the good, the weakening of the evil. In conjunction with the Angels of the Nations also they work, guiding the spiritual forces as the others guide the material, choosing. and rejecting actors in the great Drama, supplying needful impulses in the right direction. " Full book can be read at http://www.anandgholap.net/Masters-AB.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Dec 07 17:49:11 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99985 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 01:49:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 01:49:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m22.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.3) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 01:49:10 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.158.45823eef (3866); Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:48:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <158.45823eef.2ee7b786@aol.com> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:48:54 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.3 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Theosophical Question -- re: HPB prophesy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 To Koshek, Dallas, et al, My response is below. LHM In a message dated 11/30/04 7:51:31 AM, aerosophia@yahoo.com writes: >Hello Leon, > >I have a question. > >Long ago I read somewhere, and I can only paraphrase, HPB that the "final >verification of the ancient wisdom teachings will not come from theosophists, > - but from men of science." > >Now I've been looking for the quote but haven't been able to find it. Perhaps >HPB said something completely different but I am remembering it wrong. > > >Any clue? > >Koshek I remember reading something like that, too -- but I don't recall where. Actually, I think she said that scientists (and particularly those of physiology and biochemistry) will eventually come to the theosophical view all by themselves. And, when they do, it will be the final proof and verification of the teachings that the ordinary man will have to believe... Or something to that effect. (Maybe Dallas can give us the exact quote or quotes.) That day should arrive soon... When science comes up with a proof of the current Superstring/M-theories that postulate the same (3 + 7) multidimensional hyperspace (coadunate but not consubstantial) fields that theosophy talks about -- and links them to consciousness (awareness, will, etc.) that is inherent in the zero-point centers of those fields. Those developments will parallel imminent (if not current) new discoveries about the "field information" nature of the DNA code that forms the hologram of the body image -- reflected coenergetically through the next higher hyperspace field (Astral body) -- that tells the proteins made in the physical body where to go. This, I suppose, is where "physiology" and "chemistry" (which is also a part of physics) comes in... And will be the final clincher linking all the hard sciences (physics, chemistry, biology, etc.) with theosophical metaphysics -- to fulfill HPB's prophesy. My guess is that all this will come to light around the time the Mayan calendar predicts a great world change (or catastrophe) will occur of one sort or another. Let's hope it's this rather than that. :-) Best wishes, Leon From meredith_bill@earthlink.net Tue Dec 07 18:15:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: meredith_bill@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99285 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 02:15:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 02:15:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pop-a065d23.pas.sa.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.254) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 02:15:14 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.153.86.55.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.153.86.55]) by pop-a065d23.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1CbrM6-0000NE-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 07 Dec 2004 18:15:03 -0800 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.289 [265.4.6]); Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:14:57 -0500 Message-ID: <001001c4dccb$b6721c60$37569904@JoeyMeredith> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 21:14:56 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.121.254 From: "Bill Meredith" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=191212763 X-Yahoo-Profile: meredith_bille Bart, Thanks for the Osho link. I hope the folks who find the time to attack you also find the time to read the essay. I have included a small section below because it speaks to the issue of "masters" --even theosophical masters --- from a perspective with which I generally am in agreement. regards, bill excerpt from http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html < Rajneesh's disciples thought they were following an authoritative "enlightened master." In reality they had been mislead by a highly fallible enlightened human animal who was still a little boy at heart. Rajneesh had not only misrepresented himself personally, but he misrepresented the phenomena of enlightenment itself. The idealized fantasy of perfect enlightenment does not exist anywhere in the real world and it has never existed. The universe is far too big and complex for anyone to be its "master." We are all subjects, not masters, and those who pretend to be infallible and all-knowing end up looking even more the fool in the end. "Nature does not use anything as a model. It is only interested in perfecting the species. It is trying to create perfect species and not perfect beings." U.G. Krishnamurti The famous sages of old seem perfect to us now only because they have become larger than life myths. The long passage of time has allowed their followers to effectively cover up their guru's flaws, just as Rajneesh disciples are currently rewriting and censoring history to cover up Rajneesh's great failings. Rajneesh was never more infallible than any other human being. What we call enlightenment is not a cure-all for faults and frailties that cling to human animals even after they achieve maximum possible consciousness, which is perhaps a more realistic definition of the term 'enlightenment.' The contradiction of corruption and enlightenment can occur because the individual is only the lens of enlightenment, not the source of cosmic power itself. The enlightened only allow universal energy to pass through them unblocked, untouched, and uncontaminated. In a way no one ever really becomes enlightened personally. Enlightenment happens at the place where you are standing but you cannot own it or possess it. All the words of so-called enlightened men come from the human brain which interprets the phenomena of enlightenment like a translator. The words do not come from the enlightenment itself. By definition enlightenment cannot speak. It is absolutely silent and beyond any need to speak. > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.4.6 - Release Date: 12/5/2004 From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Dec 07 18:31:08 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7783 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 02:31:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 02:31:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 02:31:01 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbrbZ-0001J3-5D for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:31:01 -0500 Message-ID: <41B66767.8020401@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:31:03 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <001601c4dc3f$7eeb0b80$0301010a@versus> In-Reply-To: <001601c4dc3f$7eeb0b80$0301010a@versus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbae47ff961a09a4f098a4dd5911f1dc93d667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.66 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar wrote: > As usual these exchange of roughness and harshness leads no nothing. > There is nothing anyone can say to those who don´t want to believe. I know. But I try anyway. Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Dec 07 18:47:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22347 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 02:47:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 02:47:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 02:47:55 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cbrru-0002K3-3m for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:47:54 -0500 Message-ID: <41B66B5D.2010706@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:47:57 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041207155509.4134.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041207155509.4134.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbae47ff961a09a4f0952bc33847f28eb29a2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.66 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -- and Intro X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Towers1209 wrote: > Unfortunately, Bart, kristar is right. Whatever wisdom it is that > you trying to share with everyone (I hope you are; and not just > simply ranting and raving about everything and almost everyone that > you do not agree with) is lost in all the ranting, raving and > sanity-questioning of almost everyone that you don't agree with, that > I see in your posts. Can you give an example of any "ranting, raving and sanity-questioning" I have done? Bart From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Tue Dec 07 21:37:37 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13566 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 05:37:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 05:37:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web41506.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.93.89) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 05:37:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 85595 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Dec 2004 05:37:36 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Q/xfek9XroDHhR1wcHR5apiLL0ECLMaAssrOBlMXRPHFLHLhnKSAXJ3vrBR/aqUr2T6ifi6RR1UGdDwV9v2KbEqaAiTss7BX23a0WmJjHTMwBL2MyOIyZr4D/zntswBNVWTGdLgTJJYMYfQG7TiCPp4DhhUCVA/wiF6usZzhl94= ; Message-ID: <20041208053736.85593.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [203.56.250.202] by web41506.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:37:36 PST Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 21:37:36 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.93.89 From: Pedro Oliveira Subject: Hodgson Report X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617 X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira Is there an online edition of the full text of the(1885) SPR "Report of the Committee Appointed to Investigate Phenomena Connected with The Theosophical Society", also known as the "Hodgson Report"? So far I have only found critical studies of the Report, but not the Report itself. Any information is appreciated. Pedro __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Dec 07 22:32:12 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62123 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 06:32:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 06:32:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m27.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.8) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 06:32:11 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1ac.2d47e52c (3866); Wed, 8 Dec 2004 01:32:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1ac.2d47e52c.2ee7f9e0@aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 01:32:00 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.8 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Creation of the Cosmos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Speaking in the scientific and metaphysical "Language of this Age"...=20 Actually, from a purely scientifically valid metaphysical POV, and=20 disregarding all the mystical anthropomorphic references to a "personalized= " LOGOS or=20 "GOD" idea... If we look at the diagrams of the "woven" spheres (*globes*)= =20 within spheres within spheres, etc., (See web pages below) that emanate fro= m the=20 "whirling" energy ("Laya Point" or "spinergy") of the LOGOS (source of the= =20 "WORD," Verbum, or *holographic vibrational interference patterns* containi= ng all=20 WISDOM and KNOWLEDGE)... And, considering that the ABSOLUTE (outside of all= =20 metric time and space) *Zero Point* of such Cosmic origin is the rootless r= oot of=20 CONSCIOUSNESS or SPIRIT) -- we can see how simple (and impersonal) it all i= s.=20 (*---* =3D italics)=20=20 But first, we must understand that; Since any spherical or "global" space h= as=20 three *lines of direction* (N-S, E-W, Up-Down) that cross perpendicular to= =20 each other at the center... Therefore, the primal global "spinergy" at any= =20 zero-point has three primary poles or directions of rotation. (However, he= re, for=20 purposes of simplifying our visualization, we are only considering one axis= of=20 such rotation.) In actuality, each LOGO (of the *three* LOGOS) has referen= ce=20 to one of these polar directions. And, each such polar direction has three= =20 *zero points* of reference, one, common to their crossing centers, and two = at=20 the extreme ends of their extension and termination in infinity. Thus, the= re=20 are seven points in all -- which are the basis of the "Diamond Heart" geome= try=20 as well the seven "rays" of consciousness or "Lineage's" that represent the= =20 true fundamental metaphysical reality. See the 6-diamond (UniOmniForm) cry= stal=20 diagram (which can be infinitely divided or expanded into smaller or larger= =20 diamonds without changing its overall octahedron shape) at:=20 http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/solwldcrystposter.h= tml This is why Plato quoting Pythagorus said, "The universe geometrizes."=20 (Escher couldn't have said it better, although he certainly knew how to ill= ustrate=20 it. :-) We must also consider such "Consciousness" represented by the zero-point=20 itself, as pure [abstract] and *impersonal* AWARENESS as well as the link t= o=20 WILL... And, thereby avoid personalizing Spirit on the three higher monadic= =20 (ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS) or *logoic* planes that are above or preceding the plan= e of the=20 lower Astral mind or KAMA-MANAS.=20=20 Therefore, Consciousness as *awareness* is simply the unconditioned=20 *witness*... And *will* is the impersonal Force inherent in the "spinergy" = that can=20 only be applied through the action of *desire* focussed through the MIND --= =20 whether it be that of the universal MAHAT or Buddhi-Manas (higher Mind) or = the=20 individualized reflection of it in the Kama-Manas (lower mind) = =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 However, we must not be confused, since from a metaphysical point of view,= =20 i.e., looking at it from the point source within, outward -- this entire sy= stem=20 is the reverse of how the pseudo theosophists (and of course, all=20 theologists:-) see it (from the outside looking in)... Since, as HPB pointe= d out and as=20 both Hermes and Plato explained it (and some later writers missed) -- the i= nside=20 is the outside and the outside is the inside. And, therefore, the *I AM* or= =20 Self of any so called "God" up to the highest LOGO is equivalent to the *I = AM*=20 or self of any fully conscious Human being.=20 This *involutional* process (before *Chaos* leads to *Cosmos* and the=20 universe of forms begin its *evolution") -- ruled by fundamental LAWS of=20 multidimensional geometry -- is perfectly illustrated, and can be easily vi= sualized, if we=20 follow the Mobius path of the spiral vortex that forms each FIELD or PLANE = of=20 consciousness in successive fractal iterations, both outwardly and inwardly= ,=20 simultaneously, like bubbles within bubbles within bubbles, etc. Thus, fro= m=20 the scientific POV, the Universe both expands and contracts, while forming = both=20 the "dark matter" and the "light matter," simultaneously.=20=20 Therefore, on any plane or spherical surface, the spiritual field or ATMA i= s=20 the closest to the Zero-point of any form (and thus hidden within the space= =20 between the primal "Atoms" or fundamental particles of both *Astral* and=20 *Physical* space)... And, at the same time, stretches the furthest infinite= distance=20 from the Central zero or (laya) point of Cosmic origin... Thus, *containing= *=20 and, simultaneously inwardly supporting every particle and form within its= =20 overall circumference on every "coadunate but NOT consubstantial" PLANE of= =20 consciousness.=20=20 *Personalization* or personification only begins to occur on the lower plan= es=20 of both the *light* and *dark* Cosmic levels -- after, in our visible=20 space-time, the first seven DHYAN CHOHANS appear on the *light* side... And= , we must=20 *not* imagine such "personalization" both on the higher Cosmic MONAD planes= =20 that comprise the first three LOGOS (Note: the word "Logos" is plural) or o= n the=20 planes of the "Dhyan Chohans" that are part of the *Third Logos* (our=20 physical metric space-time). Only, when these "Chohans" are incarnated in m= ankind,=20 can they be personified.=20 Note, also, that the *information* or KNOWLEDGE these primal GLOBES carry (= in=20 their holographic interference patterns of vibrational energies) on their=20 surfaces, represent the noumenal *matrices* or "Genes"of all the *individua= l*=20 forms that appear on every plane. (See my previous posts for an explanatio= n=20 of how the dual rays of primal force that weave every globe, like balls of= =20 twisted yarn, forms these spiraling genetic *ladders* that are -- as above,= so=20 below -- analogous to the DNA molecular ladders of amino acid bases on the= =20 physical plane.) Also, see DNA pictures at: http://academy.d20.co.edu/kadets/lundberg/dna.html Note also, that the WISDOM of the LOGOS is the noumenal *root* of these=20 phenomenal patterns which are based on its immutable LAWS of KARMA (cycles = and=20 periodicity) that govern their actions-reactions... And, such WISDOM is the= =20 inherent nature of the "Whirling" or *Spinergy* of the Primal *Zero Laya Po= int*=20 origin of each of the LOGOS (or primal triune Monads on the Cosmic Spiritua= l,=20 Astral and Physical planes). HPB called this "spinergy" the "Abstract Moti= on of=20 Absolute Space" which is prior to the manifestation of the LOGOS or any=20 substantial *being* following them, in accord with fundamental law... And, = guided=20 only later by the conscious *light* Dhyan Chohans, "Builders," "Cosmocreato= rs,"=20 "Architects of the Universe," or "Great Masons" -- with the help of both=20 *impersonal* MAHAT (Cosmic mind) and FOHAT (Cosmic force).=20 The fundamental error in the interpretation below this dissertation (not to= =20 say that their general overview is entirely wrong) is the personalization o= r=20 personification of the LOGOS -- which leads every following writer who base= s=20 their theories on these interpretations, to make a Religion out of Theosoph= y=20 based on a Ruling Hierarchy and a carnal Messiah -- which completely denies= the=20 individuality, liberty, and free will of all *equal* human beings (as spiri= tual=20 entities), and foments the creation of a dictatorial ruling elite as Mankin= d's=20 Governmental agencies. This is the "wrong view" of most writers following= =20 HPB, such as AB, AAB, CWL. etc. who profess to reinterpret the teachings of= the=20 ancient Masters according to their personal religious beliefs that=20 anthropomorphize the higher Consciousness or Spirit of the Universal Monad = and its=20 reflection in the "Dhyan Chohans" -- who initially *guide* the building of = the=20 phenomenal universe and, ultimately become incarnated in Mankind as *Master= s* (but=20 not *rulers*). Therefore, there cannot be a "personal GOD" other than the=20 "Ray" of the Universal Consciousness that can be directly experienced withi= n each=20 of us. (Our direct zero-point center of individual awareness of Self, and,= =20 indirectly, of the reflected [coadunate or entangled] points of non local=20 sensory perception.) This implies that everything in the universe is *cons= cious* in=20 one degree or another. For an explanation of how we "see" -- go to: http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics ALL this, BTW, is fully explained in the "Secret Doctrine," for those=20 intuitive students able to read "in and around the words and between the li= nes" -- as=20 HPB clearly pointed out. To see how Einstein must have seen it, go to: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html I hope this clarifies things a bit and gives us some food for further thoug= ht. LHM Ref: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/invlutionflddiagnotate.gif http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Invlutionfldmirror2.gif http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html For comparative reference to "interpretations" of post HPB theosophical=20 writers, see below quotes:=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 In a message dated 11/11/04 3:18:28 PM, AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org writes:= =20 (quoting either AB or CWL)=20 >www.AnandGholap.net > > " We have just seen that the source from which a universe proceeds >is a manifested Divine Being, to whom in the modern form of the Ancient >Wisdom the name LOGOS, or Word has been given. The name is drawn from Gree= k >Philosophy, but perfectly expresses the ancient idea, the Word which emerg= es >from the Silence, the Voice, the Sound, by which the worlds come into bein= g. >We must now trace the evolution of spirit-matter, in order that we may >understand something of the nature of the materials with which we have >to deal on the physical plane, or physical world. For it is in the=20 potentialities >wrapped up, involved, in the spirit-matter of the physical world that lies >the possibility of evolution. The whole process is an unfolding, self-move= d >from within and aided by intelligent beings without, who can retard or >quicken evolution, but cannot transcend the capacities inherent in the >materials. Some idea of these earliest stages of the world's "becoming" >is therefore necessary, although any attempt to go into minute details >would carry us far beyond the limits of such an elementary treatise as >the present. A very cursory sketch must suffice.=20 > > 2. Coming >forth from the depths of the One Existence, from the ONE beyond all though= t >and all speech, a LOGOS, by imposing on Himself a limit, circumscribing >voluntarily the range of His own Being, becomes the manifested God, and >tracing the limiting sphere of His activity thus outlines the area of His >universe. Within that sphere the universe is born, is evolved, and dies >; it lives, it moves, it has its being in Him ; its matter is His emanatio= n >; its forces and energies are currents of His Life ; He is immanent in >every atom, all-pervading, all-sustaining, all-evolving ; He is its source >and its end, its cause and its object, its centre and circumference ; it >is built on Him as its sure foundation, it breathes in Him as its encircli= ng >space ; He is in everything and everything in Him. Thus have the sages >of the Ancient Wisdom taught us of the beginning of the manifested worlds. > > > 3. From >the same source we learn of the Self-unfolding of the LOGOS into a threefo= ld >form ; the First LOGOS, the Root of all being ; from Him the Second,=20 manifesting >the two aspects of Life and Form, the primal duality, making the two poles >of nature between which the web of the universe is to be woven - Life-Form= , >Spirit-Matter, Positive-Negative, Active-Receptive, Father-Mother of the >worlds. Then the Third LOGOS, the Universal Mind, that in which all=20 archetypically >exists, the source of beings, the fount of fashioning energies, the treasu= re >house in which are stored up all the archetypal forms which are to be brou= ght >forth and elaborated in lower kinds of matter during the evolution of the >universe. These are the fruits of past universes, brought over as seeds >for the present.=20 > > 4. The >phenomenal spirit and matter of any universe are finite in their extent >and transitory in their duration, but the roots of spirit and matter are >eternal. The root of matter (Mul=E2prakriti ) has been said by a profound >writer to be visible to the LOGOS as a veil thrown over the One existence, >the supreme Brahman (Parabrahman) -to use the ancient name.=20 > > 5. It >is this "veil" which the LOGOS assumes for the purpose of manifestation, >using it for the self-imposed limit which makes activity possible. From >this He elaborates the matter of His universe, being Himself its informing= , >guiding, and controlling life. ( Hence He is called "The Lord of M=E2y=E2" >in some Eastern Scriptures, M=E2y=E2, or illusion, being the principle of = form; >form is regarded as illusory, from its transitory nature and perpetual >transformations, the life which expresses itself under the veil of form >being the reality).=20 > > 6. Of >what occurs on the two higher planes of the universe, the seventh and sixt= h, >we can form but the haziest conception. The energy of the LOGOS as whirlin= g >motion of inconceivable rapidity "digs holes in space" in this root matter= , >and this vortex of life encased in a film of the root of matter is the >primary atom; these and their aggregations, spread throughout the universe= , >form all the subdivisions of spirit-matter of the highest or seventh plane= . >The sixth plane is formed by some of the countless myriads of these primar= y >atoms, setting up a vortex in the coarsest aggregations of their own plane= , >and this primary atom en-walled with spiral strands of the coarsest=20 combinations >of the seventh plane becomes the finest unit of spirit-matter, or atom >of the sixth plane. These sixth plane atoms and their endless combinations >form the subdivisions of the spirit-matter of the sixth plane.=20 > > 7. The >sixth-plane-atom, in its turn, sets up a vortex in the coarsest aggregatio= ns >of its own plane, and, with these coarsest aggregations as a limiting wall= , >becomes the finest unit of spirit-matter, or atom, of the fifth plane. >Again, these fifth-plane atoms, and their combinations form the subdivisio= ns >of the spirit-matter of the fifth plane. The process is repeated to form >successively the spirit-matter of the fourth, the third, the second, and >the first planes. These are the seven great regions of the universe, so >far as their material constituents are concerned. A clearer idea of them >will be gained by analogy when we come to master the modifications of the >spirit-matter of our own physical world.=20 > > 8. (The >student may find the conception clearer if he thinks of the fifth plane >atoms as Atma ; those of the fourth plane as Atma enveloped in Buddhi-matt= er >; those of the third plane as Atma enveloped in Buddhi and Manas-matter >; those of the second plane as Atma enveloped in Buddhi-Manas- and=20 Kama-matter >; those of the lowest as Atma enveloped in Buddhi-Manas-Kama and=20 Sth=FBla-matter. >Only the outermost is active in each, but the inner are there, though late= nt, >ready to come into activity on the upward arc of evolution). " > > From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Dec 08 01:43:40 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33850 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 09:43:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 09:43:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d04.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.36) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 09:43:39 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1b9.8526b08 (3866); Wed, 8 Dec 2004 04:43:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1b9.8526b08.2ee826c4@aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 04:43:32 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.36 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: solipcism vs materialism X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Reference is made to the following articles which postulates a new scientific unified field theory that was pointed out as appearing to be getting close to occult and Eastern metaphysics as well as to a "Theory of Everything." My comments are below. http://www.aetherpress.com/physics.htm http://www.neuronet.pitt.edu/~meno/physics/physics.html ===================================== I read the article and it seems to make logical (if not scientific or metaphysical :-) sense. But there are still holes that aren't accounted for -- since the writer doesn't say what the "Gyron" is made of, and accepts Newton's premise that it was "created" by God. It also leaves open the connection between consciousness (awareness, will) and matter as well as between mind and brain (the binding problem) -- that any completely true "Theory of Everything" (TOE) must take into consideration. So, essentially, this theory has no real or consistent validity with respect to the fundamental principles of theosophical metaphysics or to the "dependently arisen" metaphysics of Buddhism, which, as my theory of ABC confirms, indicates that the primal origination or "causeless cause" prior to manifestation of the Cosmos at the big bang, is simply the "spinergy" force (The abstract motion or angular momentum of the absolute zero point that is turning, i.e., "spinning" on itself at infinite velocities on an infinite number of axes with zero resistance)... That point and its spinergy, on analysis (since the zero-point has no dimensionality in itself) -- is nowhere and everywhere, and both "empty" (of form) and "full" (of abstract motion or primal force). It's unfortunate that science can't get a handle on such perpetual "abstract motion" circling around a stationary dimensionless point that can, at the same time be everywhere within any spatial metric... But, nevertheless, it follows, that this "laya" point and its surrounding "spinergy"must be the ineffable source of both consciousness and matter... With the zero-point itself, most likely the direct eternal source of both awareness and intent or will... And with the surrounding spinergy, the coenergetic root of all coadunate but not consubstantial fields and forces, along with the basis of the fundamental laws of physics, electricity, thermodynamics, etc. -- as well as the noumenal source of all holographic information representing the memory, knowledge, and wisdom of the universal mind, including all the holographic encoding of all possible universal forms, beings, etc., experienced or evolved in previous cycles of Cosmic existence's or during prior awakenings, involution's, and evolutions, and projected in all possible future cycles of Cosmic existence (whose actual realization would depend on the actions of conscious living beings in any present time). Therefore, there cannot be any "empty" space or "absolute vacuum" between those points and the fields surrounding them (that emanate and involve from the primal "laya" point). The author apparently assumes that the space between the Gyrons (considered as the "fundamental particles") is empty -- which cannot be true according to both the logic above as well as the fundamental principles. In addition, all of modern science recognizes that the "vacuum" of space is broiling with energies constantly coming in and out of physical existence. Does not his indicate that such energies may originate in the invisible and non measurable higher order hyperspace fields postulated by string theory? Going back further or deeper into the higher order phases of these coenergetic fields, we cannot avoid ending up at the zero-point spinergy that is the source of them all... With both the laws of symmetry and conservation still holding true. If we can intuitively see that the (non linear) force emanates from the zero-laya point into non metric dimensional (zero diameter) lines of linear motional energy (substance or mass) that involves cyclically and fractally to form the woven circumferences of all the fields of matter starting with the initial triune universal monad -- which descends internally (as fractal divisions) from near infinite frequency phases to near zero frequency phases (our metric space time continuum) -- we will understand that the infinite bubbles (globes) within bubbles within bubbles, ad infinitum, is the manner in which the primal universe expands and contracts simultaneously and steps down fractally through the seven fold fields of consciousness that, by analogy and correspondence (as above, so below), surround and interpenetrate (in coadunation but not in consubstantiality) every particle, or form in both the metaphysical (3 higher fields) and the physical (4 lower fields) universe. All these fields, of course, being of a material or substantial nature -- although varying in degree of substantiality, depending on their particular frequency-energy-mass order or phase. Since time is integrally related to these fields as a vector of duration tied intimately to the 3-vectors of globular dimensionality of metric space, we must, as Einstein did, presume we live (as physical beings) in a fundamentally 4-dimensional (directional) space-time continuum. Although, in light of the higher order (monadic) fields, which must include the fields of both mind and memory, this 4-dimensional directionality must also hold in those realms -- with the time constants differing radically between each plane. (Note that this theory assumes that all information is carried holographically as modulated wave interference patterns on the surfaces of the field's primary wave phase frequencies, and follow all the laws of electricity, including, symmetry, polarity, conservation, cycles and periodicity, harmony, resonance, induction, capacitance, resistance, etc.) The primal "atom" then, is that moving zero-point of infinite energy that weaves the fields that gradually gains greater density, and lower energy, as it descends to our space time continuum. See my symbolic global involutional diagrams that more or less consolidate both Eastern and Western scientific philosop hies, at: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/invlutionflddiagnotate.gif http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Invlutionfldmirror2.gif Therefore, the moving (and still spinning) zero-points of our metric space-time (spinning at a lower "phase" of energy/frequency than those of the astral space-time) can be considered as somewhat equivalent to the "Gyron," It is these spinning points that, starting on the spiritual level, successively form the more and more substantial "Superstrings" of energy that weave and create the "membranes" of the surfaces of all the descending fields of consciousness. It is the fundamental vibrations on these surfaces (woven out of dual spiraling lines of positive and negative energy) that, in turn, create the "strings" between them (analogous to the DNA ladder) that are the roots of all the "atoms" or fundamental particles on each of these levels. i.e.; It is the vibrational frequency/energy phase order differences of such strings that become the different particles on all of these space-time continuums -- which we might broadly separate into the four coadunate but not consubstantial worlds, of (1) physical forms, (2) astral forms, (3) mental forms and (4) spiritual forms... All, connected ("entangled") together through their common origin from the primal zero-point spinergy. Thus, accounting for the non locality of consciousness, as well as all experiential psychic phenomena and psychic powers expressed or latent in man. Thus, the mathematics of all this (from the limited objective-scientific point of view) would be much the same as in superstring/M-brane theories, and also entirely consistent with the merger of both relativity and quantum theories into a Unified Field Theory of Everything. (I'm not a mathematician and can only describe this ontology from an intuitive, imaginative, as well as a studied topological geometric and coenergetic electrical point of view.) As Einstein said, "I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." In this metaphysical view, taken scientifically, we must assume that the Ether or Aether is the higher order frequency phase spectrum of the Astral field (part of the 6, 10 or more hyperspace fields postulated by string theory as well as Eastern metaphysics as, "fields of consciousness") that are hidden (in the Planck distance) between the quantum particles of matter on the lower physical plane (our visible universe). Thus the speed of light is only limited to "C" in our metric space-time... In the so called Astral-mental realms, that speed would be much higher -- since its frequency-energy phase order is in the next higher octaves above the metric physical plane and its EM fields. Thus, the inner light we see in our mind's eye when awake or while dreaming, which is in an even higher order field at the upper or deeper hyperspace end, is not the same "light" that falls on our retinas... And thus, the inner light image changes appear instantaneous to our sense perception. This explains how the sequential memories of an entire lifetime, without missing a beat, can pass before our inner eye in a few seconds -- as reported by those who have experienced near or after death states. Such higher fields, then, being closer to the primal spiritual field, and thus closer to the primal laya point (that is immovable) would also account for inertia -- since the lower order fields would have to move through the higher order fields which would, through frictional resistance, produce "drag" -- similar to the way denser material moves through air or water. This also accounts for Einstein's observation that both time and physical dimension (in the direction of motion) contract as a physical mass approaches the speed of light. Why? Because such mass (including the photon itself) approaches the static zero-point between the lower physical field and the astral field, or ether -- where an energy-mass phase change must occur. It's the etheric drag, then, that prevents physical light from exceeding "C" velocity, and why it disappears when it approaches the event horizon of a black hole of near infinite mass. We might also consider that the photon is the first particle expressed when the original spiral Superstring involves into the physical matter on this plane. The "singularity" at the center of a black hole would be that primal zero (laya) point instant (which is everywhere, remember) that generated this entire universe (and, possibly, an infinite number of other universes). This might mean that the zero points within such a mass as a fundamental particle (e.g., photon, electron, proton, etc.) increase their spinergy on this plane to such a degree as to go through a phase change (the next higher octave) and transform back to the zero-point spinergy of the higher plane (related to the higher frequency-energy-time phase order of that plane). This new spinergy-mass, due to such contraction, becomes so small that it is below the threshold of our senses or our physical instruments and, thus, invisible or undetectable. As said in the article, we can only see their "splashes in the Ether" when we bust a particle into smaller parts with a cyclotron. So, I think, except for the metaphor of fundamental spin, this "Gyron" (created by God) theory is somewhat at odds with the true reality. :-) But, it does show us that science, too, has a long way to go to come up with a Unified Field Theory of Everything... That, when they do find it, must include "consciousness" in their equations... And, even then, they'll have to admit that consciousness, and particularly awareness and will, can only be a priori functions of the zero-point itself -- that, besides being ineffable, is outside of all metric space-time and non metric hyperspace-time -- yet intimately connected to them in all their aspects or levels of being. Please note, that the Aether (Ether) or Astral field -- which light must travel through in the vacuum of space (that science sees as being full of "perturbations of 'zero-point energy'" coming in and out of existence) -- is NOT the Akasha or universal memory field (the so called "Akashic Record" of the occultists) -- which, as I see it, is the initial "primordial field" related to the zero-point spinergy, out of which all the 7 fold "substantial" fields of consciousness fractally involve and descend from spiritual to physical matter. I hope all this gives us some further food for thought, as we try to find a universal theory of both consciousness and matter that will satisfy all disciplines of scientific and philosophical studies and thinking. Best wishes, Leon Maurer From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Wed Dec 08 01:54:54 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 23266 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 09:54:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 09:54:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 09:54:51 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-101-197-214.fnsce7007.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.101.197.214]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91AD633E99 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 07:54:47 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Wed, 08 Dec 2004 07:53:38 -0200 Message-ID: <001201c4dd0b$ca911120$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <003401c4dc84$39a5d6a0$731f6b3e@khidr> <006201c4dc95$a240a580$0301010a@versus> <000401c4dc99$706e2470$731f6b3e@khidr> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 07:53:38 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Morten Please, what did you mean with the expression " 1. First. I am not saying t= hat books under the name Idries Shah are for=20 everyone."? _______________________________________ I am used to reading on the Adwaita philolosophy, such as Vivekananda=B4s, = some Patanjali=B4s sutras , some excerpts from the sage Ramana Maharshi, S= hankara...but no serious compromises of a real study. There are, IMO, three instances in the path: to read for information only, = to read and understand and the other, the main task of the seeker, to pract= ise. The practise of Adwaita is limited by our level of conscience ( or ignoranc= e...) As far as we are still living on the mind realms, we are still just reading= about duality in books which preach non-duality. It is relatively funny. I gess there is a hat-size for each size of head...But this level of books = are for helping to get rid of ignorance. If you meant this, it is not a book for any person, is for those who want t= o incorporate elements for an higher inner seek. When I was young I used to get satisfied by the explanations of church book= s...then with spiritist books, now, things change and the search is differe= nt. Regards and many thanks for the help on Idries Shah books! ______________________________________ I agree with you and say with my own words what i understanding of what you= said: It is possible to dicuss Osho from a Theosophical view, but analise his con= troverses and defend prejudices produces no fruits. I think he was a sage in many of his lectures and concentrates many interes= ting views. Who has ever told where wisdom is? It=B4s almost everywhere. We must look f= or it with an open mind. ______________________________________________________________ Krishtar Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M. Sufilight=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:15 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo Krishtar and all, My views are: 1. First. I am not saying that books under the name Idries Shah are for=20 everyone. 2. Second. I could suggest the books a) first "The Sufis" and b) secondl= y=20 "The Way of the Sufi" as some of the first books to get aquainted with. The Octagon Press who is behind the books has (as far as I know) a policy= ,=20 which has sought to make the books available in nearly every large librar= y=20 (at least) in the western hemisphere. So you could try one of the big libraries in your neighbourhood and see i= f=20 they have the books mentioned. Idries Shah's teachings has in fact many similarities to esoteric Adwaita= =20 and the Upanishad teachings as well as Esoteric Buddhism - if one cares t= o=20 read behind the veils of the dead-letter. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Dear Morten Sincerely, I never read a book by Idries, although I had seen one in a=20 bookstore months ago. I am a total ignorant on Sufism... Maybe you could help me giving the lightest books=B4 list for a=20 beginner...yep? Waiting Krishtar _______________________________________ About Rajneesh: I didn=B4t mean to discuss in that level Morten, I was just trying to fi= nd=20 someone here that could trade a few impressions on him, with open mind an= d=20 with no preconceived ideas. A theosophist as one said have to look for th= e=20 truth and answers to his question-marks with dilligence, wisdom, or I=20 wouldn=B4t take my time, sit and read and write with my poor eenglisch (= =20 smile), I am an ignorant looking for answers and, as human I am, I get a= =20 bit annoyed with the lack of empathy and compassion by many who even=20 occupied important positions inside TS and its branches. Not only over he= re=20 but in many places. We sometimes criticize many old theosophers from the beginning of the=20 movement but nowadays we see that these criticisms come from people who s= eem=20 that daily they loose the rare oportunities to be gentle and warmhearted= =20 when a single divergence arrises. If the group or media did not permit a true and openminded freedom of=20 thought with respect and empathy there is no worth in discussing such=20 important matters. It is just a sincere and though imprecise point of view. K ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M. Sufilight To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo friends and all, My views are: I think I have referred to the below words before. But I will gladly state them again: "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy, or the competence of another man or institution, he must first learn something which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his perception itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'. This is 'Learning How To Learn." That is why it is better to seek Learning than to discuss Osho and othe= rs=20 on a level which leads practically almost nowhere, but into the realms of emotiona= l=20 and intellectual stimulations. As it was said: We shall know them on their fruits. (I know what I think when I compare Blavatsky with either Krishnamurti = or Osho. But Learning and Knowledge are both important and should not be avoided and exchanged for mere emotionalism or intellecutal analysing. = ) >:-) Let us not just stimulate the emotions. Let us seek to learn and to tea= ch the inner esoterical organ. Well this was just a few views. Now I have one single - and still unanswered question: Was Idries Shah the teacher mentioned by Blavatsky, who possibly would arrive after the years 1975 ? http://www.sufis.org/shah.html from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho > > krishtar wrote: >> Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read wha= t >> he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not >> believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. > > That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writings. > >> If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington=B4s "= The >> Mme. Blavatsky=B4s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is >> similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud. > > Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer > review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky really > were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to > Blavatsky. > >> government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was real >> Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked >> openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody appreciate= s >> it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a >> criminal. > > So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > >> simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practised >> bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. > > Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered h= im > to be a holy man: > > http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html > > Bart > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Dec 08 04:11:06 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 45052 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 12:11:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 12:11:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 12:11:06 -0000 Received: from [216.244.6.87] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cc0er-0004nU-K8; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 07:11:02 -0500 To: Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 04:10:56 -0800 Message-ID: <000701c4dd1e$fb6c4270$5706f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec795f3dbc171f5d8d3edfcfd7101ceda2e2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.66 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 216.244.6.87 Subject: RE: [bn-study] HPB on Herself -- teachings/Masters today and ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 8 2004 Re HPB's control of the "elementals".=20=20 You wrote in part: "your question regarding Elementals, Elementals followe= d HPB when young and when young she could not control them. After 3 years in Tibet she was able to control them." [ See S. Cranston book bio. "H P B" ] It is said that whenever an Adept incarnates he / she has to master the new personality so acquired. Master KH in MAHATMA LETTERS gives us an instanc= e of this: "Every human being contains within himself vast potentialities, and it is the duty of the adepts to surround the would-be chela with circumstances which shall enable him to take the "right-hand path," -- if he have the ability in him. We are no more at liberty to withhold the chance from a postulant than we are to guide and direct him into the proper course. At best, we can only show him after his probation period was successfully terminated -- that if he does this he will go right; if the other, wrong. But until he has passed that period, we leave him to fight out his battles as best he may; and have to do so occasionally with higher and initiated chelas such as H.P.B., once they are allowed to work in the world, that all of us more or less avoid.=20 More than that -- ....we allow our candidates to be tempted in a thousand various ways, so as to draw out the whole of their inner nature and allow i= t the chance of remaining conqueror either one way or the other. ... We were all so tested; and while a Moorad Ali -- failed -- I, succeeded. Th= e victor's crown is only for him who proves himself worthy to wear it; for hi= m who attacks Mara single handed and conquers the demon of lust and earthly passions; and not we but he himself puts it on his brow.=20 It was not a meaningless phrase of the Tathagata that "he who masters Self is greater than he who conquers thousands in battle": there is no such othe= r difficult struggle. If it were not so, adeptship would be but a cheap acquirement." M L 316 Beast wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=20 -----Original Message----- From: cassilva48 Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 7:54 PM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] teachings/Masters today and ... Dear Mauri. In response to your question regarding Elementals, Elementals followed HPB when young and when young she could not control them. After 3 years in Tibet she was able to control them. They have no sense. They are behind all phenomenon and fakirs. A strong light can effect them. When asked, what prevents the Elementals from taking over the human kingdom, I was told that Aura keeps them away from Man. It acts as a protective shield unless the spiritual aura is darkened through materialistic tendencies, it will lose its protective abilities. Will can also determine their impact, if you become passive you open yourself to danger, as in the case of Mediums who do not have a strong enough will to protect themselves. So getting back to Crop Circles, if the elementals are behind this phenomenon, is it reasonable to accept that some intelligent force is controlling them. CUT From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Wed Dec 08 04:33:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 93794 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 12:33:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 12:33:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 12:33:34 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [201.3.236.160]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC67C33F21 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:33:32 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Wed, 08 Dec 2004 10:32:23 -0200 Message-ID: <004801c4dd21$f7e29f20$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <001001c4dccb$b6721c60$37569904@JoeyMeredith> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:32:23 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho_ Bill X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bill I am reading the entire article on line and agree with many afirmations and= doubt of many too. The article excerpt you kindly included for example says " The idealized f= antasy of perfect=20 enlightenment does not exist anywhere in the real world and it has never=20 existed."=20 I=B4ll throw my theos books in the trash bin!(smile) _______________________________________________________ Other excerpts from the link that show the limitations of the "thinkers".Th= e authority of the articles are also questionable, but useful to see other = POV=B4s: " In my opinion, the world would be better off if most of the books written= by the famous mystics were used for fuel to keep us all warm at night. " "Meditation is basic good-clean-fun." "Objectively, by any measurement, enlightened people are as egocentric as a= nyone else." "There was no "Lord Buddha," only an enlightened Siddhartha Gautama. There= was no "Lord Jesus," only a carpenter who made extravagant claims. The on= ly way to be egoless is to physically die and not come back into this world= . If you are here, you have an ego. Do not fool yourself or allow yoursel= f to be fooled by others. " Christopher Calder +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= ++++++++++++++++++ There are and there were real enlighted people in the world. I believe it. The sub-links of the mentioned link lead us to other articles of doubtful b= ackground as the claiming that if we loose the ego our brain cannot survive= and things like that prove that the people who wrote have a limited awaren= ess of what ego and personality is, he is another seeker like us, whose fal= libility is plainly possible. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Meredith=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 12:14 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Bart, Thanks for the Osho link. I hope the folks who find the time to attack y= ou=20 also find the time to read the essay. I have included a small section be= low=20 because it speaks to the issue of "masters" --even theosophical masters -= --=20=20 from a perspective with which I generally am in agreement. regards, bill excerpt from http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html < Rajneesh's disciples thought they were following an authoritative=20 "enlightened master." In reality they had been mislead by a highly falli= ble=20 enlightened human animal who was still a little boy at heart. Rajneesh h= ad=20 not only misrepresented himself personally, but he misrepresented the=20 phenomena of enlightenment itself. The idealized fantasy of perfect=20 enlightenment does not exist anywhere in the real world and it has never= =20 existed. The universe is far too big and complex for anyone to be its=20 "master." We are all subjects, not masters, and those who pretend to be= =20 infallible and all-knowing end up looking even more the fool in the end. "Nature does not use anything as a model. It is only interested in=20 perfecting the species. It is trying to create perfect species and not=20 perfect beings." U.G. Krishnamurti The famous sages of old seem perfect to us now only because they hav= e=20 become larger than life myths. The long passage of time has allowed thei= r=20 followers to effectively cover up their guru's flaws, just as Rajneesh=20 disciples are currently rewriting and censoring history to cover up=20 Rajneesh's great failings. Rajneesh was never more infallible than any=20 other human being. What we call enlightenment is not a cure-all for faul= ts=20 and frailties that cling to human animals even after they achieve maximum= =20 possible consciousness, which is perhaps a more realistic definition of t= he=20 term 'enlightenment.' The contradiction of corruption and enlightenment can occur because = the=20 individual is only the lens of enlightenment, not the source of cosmic po= wer=20 itself. The enlightened only allow universal energy to pass through them= =20 unblocked, untouched, and uncontaminated. In a way no one ever really=20 becomes enlightened personally. Enlightenment happens at the place where= =20 you are standing but you cannot own it or possess it. All the words of=20 so-called enlightened men come from the human brain which interprets the= =20 phenomena of enlightenment like a translator. The words do not come from= =20 the enlightenment itself. By definition enlightenment cannot speak. It = is=20 absolutely silent and beyond any need to speak. > --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.4.6 - Release Date: 12/5/2004 =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Wed Dec 08 09:34:28 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 8649 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 17:34:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 17:34:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx01.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.11) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 17:34:15 -0000 Received: from 3e6b0d60.rev.stofanet.dk ([62.107.13.96] helo=khidr) by mx01.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1Cc5hd-0007sL-03 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 18:34:13 +0100 Message-ID: <002a01c4dd4c$716ba6f0$600d6b3e@khidr> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <003401c4dc84$39a5d6a0$731f6b3e@khidr> <006201c4dc95$a240a580$0301010a@versus> <000401c4dc99$706e2470$731f6b3e@khidr> <001201c4dd0b$ca911120$0301010a@versus> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 18:36:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 212.10.10.11 From: "M. Sufilight" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Krishtar and all, My views are: Krishtar asked: "Please, what did you mean with the expression " 1. First. I am not saying that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone."?" My answer: What part of the expression do you not understand or are in doubt about? I think some people are not aware of that Theosophy is the same as pure esoteric Buddhism or esoteric Adwaita + the the teachings of the Upanishads if the dead-letter is avoided. from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:53 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten Hi Morten Please, what did you mean with the expression " 1. First. I am not saying that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone."? _______________________________________ I am used to reading on the Adwaita philolosophy, such as Vivekananda´s, some Patanjali´s sutras , some excerpts from the sage Ramana Maharshi, Shankara...but no serious compromises of a real study. There are, IMO, three instances in the path: to read for information only, to read and understand and the other, the main task of the seeker, to practise. The practise of Adwaita is limited by our level of conscience ( or ignorance...) As far as we are still living on the mind realms, we are still just reading about duality in books which preach non-duality. It is relatively funny. I gess there is a hat-size for each size of head...But this level of books are for helping to get rid of ignorance. If you meant this, it is not a book for any person, is for those who want to incorporate elements for an higher inner seek. When I was young I used to get satisfied by the explanations of church books...then with spiritist books, now, things change and the search is different. Regards and many thanks for the help on Idries Shah books! ______________________________________ I agree with you and say with my own words what i understanding of what you said: It is possible to dicuss Osho from a Theosophical view, but analise his controverses and defend prejudices produces no fruits. I think he was a sage in many of his lectures and concentrates many interesting views. Who has ever told where wisdom is? It´s almost everywhere. We must look for it with an open mind. ______________________________________________________________ Krishtar Krishtar ----- Original Message ----- From: M. Sufilight To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:15 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo Krishtar and all, My views are: 1. First. I am not saying that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone. 2. Second. I could suggest the books a) first "The Sufis" and b) secondly "The Way of the Sufi" as some of the first books to get aquainted with. The Octagon Press who is behind the books has (as far as I know) a policy, which has sought to make the books available in nearly every large library (at least) in the western hemisphere. So you could try one of the big libraries in your neighbourhood and see if they have the books mentioned. Idries Shah's teachings has in fact many similarities to esoteric Adwaita and the Upanishad teachings as well as Esoteric Buddhism - if one cares to read behind the veils of the dead-letter. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Dear Morten Sincerely, I never read a book by Idries, although I had seen one in a bookstore months ago. I am a total ignorant on Sufism... Maybe you could help me giving the lightest books´ list for a beginner...yep? Waiting Krishtar _______________________________________ About Rajneesh: I didn´t mean to discuss in that level Morten, I was just trying to find someone here that could trade a few impressions on him, with open mind and with no preconceived ideas. A theosophist as one said have to look for the truth and answers to his question-marks with dilligence, wisdom, or I wouldn´t take my time, sit and read and write with my poor eenglisch ( smile), I am an ignorant looking for answers and, as human I am, I get a bit annoyed with the lack of empathy and compassion by many who even occupied important positions inside TS and its branches. Not only over here but in many places. We sometimes criticize many old theosophers from the beginning of the movement but nowadays we see that these criticisms come from people who seem that daily they loose the rare oportunities to be gentle and warmhearted when a single divergence arrises. If the group or media did not permit a true and openminded freedom of thought with respect and empathy there is no worth in discussing such important matters. It is just a sincere and though imprecise point of view. K ----- Original Message ----- From: M. Sufilight To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo friends and all, My views are: I think I have referred to the below words before. But I will gladly state them again: "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy, or the competence of another man or institution, he must first learn something which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his perception itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'. This is 'Learning How To Learn." That is why it is better to seek Learning than to discuss Osho and others on a level which leads practically almost nowhere, but into the realms of emotional and intellectual stimulations. As it was said: We shall know them on their fruits. (I know what I think when I compare Blavatsky with either Krishnamurti or Osho. But Learning and Knowledge are both important and should not be avoided and exchanged for mere emotionalism or intellecutal analysing. ) >:-) Let us not just stimulate the emotions. Let us seek to learn and to teach the inner esoterical organ. Well this was just a few views. Now I have one single - and still unanswered question: Was Idries Shah the teacher mentioned by Blavatsky, who possibly would arrive after the years 1975 ? http://www.sufis.org/shah.html from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho > > krishtar wrote: >> Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read what >> he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not >> believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. > > That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writings. > >> If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington´s "The >> Mme. Blavatsky´s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is >> similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud. > > Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer > review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky really > were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to > Blavatsky. > >> government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was real >> Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked >> openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody appreciates >> it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a >> criminal. > > So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > >> simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practised >> bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. > > Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered him > to be a holy man: > > http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html > > Bart > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links From meredith_bill@earthlink.net Wed Dec 08 09:59:47 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: meredith_bill@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 92435 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 17:59:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 17:59:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.226) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 17:59:46 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.153.83.24.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.153.83.24]) by cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Cc65V-0004zn-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 09:58:54 -0800 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.289 [265.4.7]); Wed, 08 Dec 2004 12:58:48 -0500 Message-ID: <001601c4dd4f$90a62920$18539904@JoeyMeredith> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <001001c4dccb$b6721c60$37569904@JoeyMeredith> <004801c4dd21$f7e29f20$0301010a@versus> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:58:47 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.121.226 From: "Bill Meredith" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho_ Bill X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=191212763 X-Yahoo-Profile: meredith_bille Krishtar, Thanks for your comments. I see your point of view, but I also see some possible disconnect. Probably it is just the language, but when you conclude, "There are and there were real enlighted people in the world. I believe it.," are you implying that Christopher Calder or I or Bart or Morten are somehow disagreeing with that statement? I have met some "real enlighted" people. However, they were not perfect even though they were real and enlightened they remain "people" in the sense of being active participants in the human condition. Is it your position that there are and were perfect human beings? If so I must ask how you have reached this conclusion? bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho_ Bill Hi Bill I am reading the entire article on line and agree with many afirmations and doubt of many too. The article excerpt you kindly included for example says " The idealized fantasy of perfect enlightenment does not exist anywhere in the real world and it has never existed." I´ll throw my theos books in the trash bin!(smile) _______________________________________________________ Other excerpts from the link that show the limitations of the "thinkers".The authority of the articles are also questionable, but useful to see other POV´s: " In my opinion, the world would be better off if most of the books written by the famous mystics were used for fuel to keep us all warm at night. " "Meditation is basic good-clean-fun." "Objectively, by any measurement, enlightened people are as egocentric as anyone else." "There was no "Lord Buddha," only an enlightened Siddhartha Gautama. There was no "Lord Jesus," only a carpenter who made extravagant claims. The only way to be egoless is to physically die and not come back into this world. If you are here, you have an ego. Do not fool yourself or allow yourself to be fooled by others. " Christopher Calder +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ There are and there were real enlighted people in the world. I believe it. The sub-links of the mentioned link lead us to other articles of doubtful background as the claiming that if we loose the ego our brain cannot survive and things like that prove that the people who wrote have a limited awareness of what ego and personality is, he is another seeker like us, whose fallibility is plainly possible. Krishtar ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Meredith To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 12:14 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Bart, Thanks for the Osho link. I hope the folks who find the time to attack you also find the time to read the essay. I have included a small section below because it speaks to the issue of "masters" --even theosophical masters --- from a perspective with which I generally am in agreement. regards, bill excerpt from http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html < Rajneesh's disciples thought they were following an authoritative "enlightened master." In reality they had been mislead by a highly fallible enlightened human animal who was still a little boy at heart. Rajneesh had not only misrepresented himself personally, but he misrepresented the phenomena of enlightenment itself. The idealized fantasy of perfect enlightenment does not exist anywhere in the real world and it has never existed. The universe is far too big and complex for anyone to be its "master." We are all subjects, not masters, and those who pretend to be infallible and all-knowing end up looking even more the fool in the end. "Nature does not use anything as a model. It is only interested in perfecting the species. It is trying to create perfect species and not perfect beings." U.G. Krishnamurti The famous sages of old seem perfect to us now only because they have become larger than life myths. The long passage of time has allowed their followers to effectively cover up their guru's flaws, just as Rajneesh disciples are currently rewriting and censoring history to cover up Rajneesh's great failings. Rajneesh was never more infallible than any other human being. What we call enlightenment is not a cure-all for faults and frailties that cling to human animals even after they achieve maximum possible consciousness, which is perhaps a more realistic definition of the term 'enlightenment.' The contradiction of corruption and enlightenment can occur because the individual is only the lens of enlightenment, not the source of cosmic power itself. The enlightened only allow universal energy to pass through them unblocked, untouched, and uncontaminated. In a way no one ever really becomes enlightened personally. Enlightenment happens at the place where you are standing but you cannot own it or possess it. All the words of so-called enlightened men come from the human brain which interprets the phenomena of enlightenment like a translator. The words do not come from the enlightenment itself. By definition enlightenment cannot speak. It is absolutely silent and beyond any need to speak. > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.4.6 - Release Date: 12/5/2004 Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.4.7 - Release Date: 12/7/2004 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.4.7 - Release Date: 12/7/2004 From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Wed Dec 08 10:06:01 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53209 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 18:05:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 18:05:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 18:05:55 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [201.11.90.16]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B87F34037 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:05:52 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.7]); Wed, 08 Dec 2004 16:04:45 -0200 Message-ID: <00bd01c4dd50$6662f520$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <003401c4dc84$39a5d6a0$731f6b3e@khidr> <006201c4dc95$a240a580$0301010a@versus> <000401c4dc99$706e2470$731f6b3e@khidr> <001201c4dd0b$ca911120$0301010a@versus> <002a01c4dd4c$716ba6f0$600d6b3e@khidr> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:04:45 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, thanks for replying! " Re-asking":about Idries Shah You said that it is not for everyone. Did you mean that not everybody is prepared to understand Idries.? If it is so, it has to do a bit with one of the aforisms of KarmaYoga, whic= h (if I can remember the right or aproximate words)says that Karma also de= termines how far or how deep the seeker can realise certain truths or studi= es in a lifetime. What is your opinion? There are lots of people who read and read, study and study, jump from one = esoteric movement to another, but at the end they seem not to understand ev= en the basis from the path=B4s rudiments. While others, as fast as he can get a book and read it , it instantly gets = absorbed and understood. And the most interesting is that they change interiorly. Speculatively, Karma through the skandas can also determine whence you can = go on the next time the thread of conscience ( the " spirit" )begins the le= arning... Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M. Sufilight=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 3:36 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten Hallo Krishtar and all, My views are: Krishtar asked: "Please, what did you mean with the expression " 1. First. I am not sayin= g=20 that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone."?" My answer: What part of the expression do you not understand or are in doubt about? I think some people are not aware of that Theosophy is the same as pure=20 esoteric Buddhism or esoteric Adwaita + the the teachings of the Upanisha= ds=20 if the dead-letter is avoided. from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:53 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten Hi Morten Please, what did you mean with the expression " 1. First. I am not saying= =20 that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone."? _______________________________________ I am used to reading on the Adwaita philolosophy, such as Vivekananda=B4s= ,=20 some Patanjali=B4s sutras , some excerpts from the sage Ramana Maharshi,= =20 Shankara...but no serious compromises of a real study. There are, IMO, three instances in the path: to read for information only= ,=20 to read and understand and the other, the main task of the seeker, to=20 practise. The practise of Adwaita is limited by our level of conscience ( or=20 ignorance...) As far as we are still living on the mind realms, we are still just readi= ng=20 about duality in books which preach non-duality. It is relatively funny. I gess there is a hat-size for each size of head...But this level of book= s=20 are for helping to get rid of ignorance. If you meant this, it is not a book for any person, is for those who want= to=20 incorporate elements for an higher inner seek. When I was young I used to get satisfied by the explanations of church=20 books...then with spiritist books, now, things change and the search is=20 different. Regards and many thanks for the help on Idries Shah books! ______________________________________ I agree with you and say with my own words what i understanding of what y= ou=20 said: It is possible to dicuss Osho from a Theosophical view, but analise his=20 controverses and defend prejudices produces no fruits. I think he was a sage in many of his lectures and concentrates many=20 interesting views. Who has ever told where wisdom is? It=B4s almost everywhere. We must look= for=20 it with an open mind. ______________________________________________________________ Krishtar Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M. Sufilight To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:15 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo Krishtar and all, My views are: 1. First. I am not saying that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone. 2. Second. I could suggest the books a) first "The Sufis" and b) secon= dly "The Way of the Sufi" as some of the first books to get aquainted with. The Octagon Press who is behind the books has (as far as I know) a poli= cy, which has sought to make the books available in nearly every large libr= ary (at least) in the western hemisphere. So you could try one of the big libraries in your neighbourhood and see= if they have the books mentioned. Idries Shah's teachings has in fact many similarities to esoteric Adwai= ta and the Upanishad teachings as well as Esoteric Buddhism - if one cares= to read behind the veils of the dead-letter. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Dear Morten Sincerely, I never read a book by Idries, although I had seen one in a bookstore months ago. I am a total ignorant on Sufism... Maybe you could help me giving the lightest books=B4 list for a beginner...yep? Waiting Krishtar _______________________________________ About Rajneesh: I didn=B4t mean to discuss in that level Morten, I was just trying to = find someone here that could trade a few impressions on him, with open mind = and with no preconceived ideas. A theosophist as one said have to look for = the truth and answers to his question-marks with dilligence, wisdom, or I wouldn=B4t take my time, sit and read and write with my poor eenglisch = ( smile), I am an ignorant looking for answers and, as human I am, I get= a bit annoyed with the lack of empathy and compassion by many who even occupied important positions inside TS and its branches. Not only over= =20 here but in many places. We sometimes criticize many old theosophers from the beginning of the movement but nowadays we see that these criticisms come from people who= =20 seem that daily they loose the rare oportunities to be gentle and warmhearte= d when a single divergence arrises. If the group or media did not permit a true and openminded freedom of thought with respect and empathy there is no worth in discussing such important matters. It is just a sincere and though imprecise point of view. K ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M. Sufilight To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo friends and all, My views are: I think I have referred to the below words before. But I will gladly state them again: "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy, or the competence of another man or institution, he must first learn something which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his perception itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'. This is 'Learning How To Learn." That is why it is better to seek Learning than to discuss Osho and=20 others on a level which leads practically almost nowhere, but into the realms of emotio= nal and intellectual stimulations. As it was said: We shall know them on their fruits. (I know what I think when I compare Blavatsky with either Krishnamurt= i=20 or Osho. But Learning and Knowledge are both important and should not be avoided and exchanged for mere emotionalism or intellecutal analysing= . ) >:-) Let us not just stimulate the emotions. Let us seek to learn and to=20 teach the inner esoterical organ. Well this was just a few views. Now I have one single - and still unanswered question: Was Idries Shah the teacher mentioned by Blavatsky, who possibly woul= d arrive after the years 1975 ? http://www.sufis.org/shah.html from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho > > krishtar wrote: >> Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read w= hat >> he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not >> believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. > > That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writing= s. > >> If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington=B4s= "The >> Mme. Blavatsky=B4s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is >> similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud. > > Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer > review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky real= ly > were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to > Blavatsky. > >> government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was re= al >> Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked >> openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody apprecia= tes >> it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a >> criminal. > > So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > >> simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practise= d >> bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. > > Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered= =20 him > to be a holy man: > > http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html > > Bart > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Wed Dec 08 10:21:48 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44066 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 18:21:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 18:21:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx01.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.11) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 18:21:47 -0000 Received: from 3e6b0d60.rev.stofanet.dk ([62.107.13.96] helo=khidr) by mx01.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1Cc6Rd-0001qH-02 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 19:21:45 +0100 Message-ID: <000401c4dd53$159bc290$600d6b3e@khidr> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <003401c4dc84$39a5d6a0$731f6b3e@khidr> <006201c4dc95$a240a580$0301010a@versus> <000401c4dc99$706e2470$731f6b3e@khidr> <001201c4dd0b$ca911120$0301010a@versus> <002a01c4dd4c$716ba6f0$600d6b3e@khidr> <00bd01c4dd50$6662f520$0301010a@versus> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 19:23:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 212.10.10.11 From: "M. Sufilight" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Krishtar and all, My views are given using *** in the below. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 7:04 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten Hello, thanks for replying! " Re-asking":about Idries Shah You said that it is not for everyone. Did you mean that not everybody is prepared to understand Idries.? *** Yes. That is one of the views. *** If it is so, it has to do a bit with one of the aforisms of KarmaYoga, which (if I can remember the right or aproximate words)says that Karma also determines how far or how deep the seeker can realise certain truths or studies in a lifetime. What is your opinion? *** It could be true. But another use of words could also be relevant. Such as the right time, place, people and circumstances when reading Idries Shah's book or considering his offers. *** There are lots of people who read and read, study and study, jump from one esoteric movement to another, but at the end they seem not to understand even the basis from the path´s rudiments. *** Yes. I remember something about Annie Besant was putting a great emphasis on that theosophical members should read much and truely absorb the theosophical teaching on not only a superficial level. Blavatsky did just about the same, but she talked much more about avoiding the use of the dead-letter while reading and teaching - and gave however less importance to the value of reading. Well so far my views on the matter. *** While others, as fast as he can get a book and read it , it instantly gets absorbed and understood. And the most interesting is that they change interiorly. *** Sometimes they change so much, that they only write quality emails when the write at all. >:-) M. Sufilight with peace and love... *** Speculatively, Karma through the skandas can also determine whence you can go on the next time the thread of conscience ( the " spirit" )begins the learning... Krishtar ----- Original Message ----- From: M. Sufilight To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 3:36 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten Hallo Krishtar and all, My views are: Krishtar asked: "Please, what did you mean with the expression " 1. First. I am not saying that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone."?" My answer: What part of the expression do you not understand or are in doubt about? I think some people are not aware of that Theosophy is the same as pure esoteric Buddhism or esoteric Adwaita + the the teachings of the Upanishads if the dead-letter is avoided. from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:53 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten Hi Morten Please, what did you mean with the expression " 1. First. I am not saying that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone."? _______________________________________ I am used to reading on the Adwaita philolosophy, such as Vivekananda´s, some Patanjali´s sutras , some excerpts from the sage Ramana Maharshi, Shankara...but no serious compromises of a real study. There are, IMO, three instances in the path: to read for information only, to read and understand and the other, the main task of the seeker, to practise. The practise of Adwaita is limited by our level of conscience ( or ignorance...) As far as we are still living on the mind realms, we are still just reading about duality in books which preach non-duality. It is relatively funny. I gess there is a hat-size for each size of head...But this level of books are for helping to get rid of ignorance. If you meant this, it is not a book for any person, is for those who want to incorporate elements for an higher inner seek. When I was young I used to get satisfied by the explanations of church books...then with spiritist books, now, things change and the search is different. Regards and many thanks for the help on Idries Shah books! ______________________________________ I agree with you and say with my own words what i understanding of what you said: It is possible to dicuss Osho from a Theosophical view, but analise his controverses and defend prejudices produces no fruits. I think he was a sage in many of his lectures and concentrates many interesting views. Who has ever told where wisdom is? It´s almost everywhere. We must look for it with an open mind. ______________________________________________________________ Krishtar Krishtar ----- Original Message ----- From: M. Sufilight To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:15 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo Krishtar and all, My views are: 1. First. I am not saying that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone. 2. Second. I could suggest the books a) first "The Sufis" and b) secondly "The Way of the Sufi" as some of the first books to get aquainted with. The Octagon Press who is behind the books has (as far as I know) a policy, which has sought to make the books available in nearly every large library (at least) in the western hemisphere. So you could try one of the big libraries in your neighbourhood and see if they have the books mentioned. Idries Shah's teachings has in fact many similarities to esoteric Adwaita and the Upanishad teachings as well as Esoteric Buddhism - if one cares to read behind the veils of the dead-letter. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Dear Morten Sincerely, I never read a book by Idries, although I had seen one in a bookstore months ago. I am a total ignorant on Sufism... Maybe you could help me giving the lightest books´ list for a beginner...yep? Waiting Krishtar _______________________________________ About Rajneesh: I didn´t mean to discuss in that level Morten, I was just trying to find someone here that could trade a few impressions on him, with open mind and with no preconceived ideas. A theosophist as one said have to look for the truth and answers to his question-marks with dilligence, wisdom, or I wouldn´t take my time, sit and read and write with my poor eenglisch ( smile), I am an ignorant looking for answers and, as human I am, I get a bit annoyed with the lack of empathy and compassion by many who even occupied important positions inside TS and its branches. Not only over here but in many places. We sometimes criticize many old theosophers from the beginning of the movement but nowadays we see that these criticisms come from people who seem that daily they loose the rare oportunities to be gentle and warmhearted when a single divergence arrises. If the group or media did not permit a true and openminded freedom of thought with respect and empathy there is no worth in discussing such important matters. It is just a sincere and though imprecise point of view. K ----- Original Message ----- From: M. Sufilight To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo friends and all, My views are: I think I have referred to the below words before. But I will gladly state them again: "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy, or the competence of another man or institution, he must first learn something which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his perception itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'. This is 'Learning How To Learn." That is why it is better to seek Learning than to discuss Osho and others on a level which leads practically almost nowhere, but into the realms of emotional and intellectual stimulations. As it was said: We shall know them on their fruits. (I know what I think when I compare Blavatsky with either Krishnamurti or Osho. But Learning and Knowledge are both important and should not be avoided and exchanged for mere emotionalism or intellecutal analysing. ) >:-) Let us not just stimulate the emotions. Let us seek to learn and to teach the inner esoterical organ. Well this was just a few views. Now I have one single - and still unanswered question: Was Idries Shah the teacher mentioned by Blavatsky, who possibly would arrive after the years 1975 ? http://www.sufis.org/shah.html from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho > > krishtar wrote: >> Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read what >> he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not >> believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. > > That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writings. > >> If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington´s "The >> Mme. Blavatsky´s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is >> similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud. > > Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer > review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky really > were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to > Blavatsky. > >> government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was real >> Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked >> openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody appreciates >> it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a >> criminal. > > So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > >> simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practised >> bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. > > Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered him > to be a holy man: > > http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html > > Bart > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Wed Dec 08 10:31:05 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74414 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 18:31:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 18:31:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 18:31:04 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [201.11.90.16]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45598349E for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:31:01 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.7]); Wed, 08 Dec 2004 16:29:48 -0200 Message-ID: <00d201c4dd53$e5f85de0$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <003401c4dc84$39a5d6a0$731f6b3e@khidr> <006201c4dc95$a240a580$0301010a@versus> <000401c4dc99$706e2470$731f6b3e@khidr> <001201c4dd0b$ca911120$0301010a@versus> <002a01c4dd4c$716ba6f0$600d6b3e@khidr> <00bd01c4dd50$6662f520$0301010a@versus> <000401c4dd53$159bc290$600d6b3e@khidr> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:29:48 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Krishtar wrote: "While others, as fast as he can get a book and read it , it instantly gets= =20 absorbed and understood. And the most interesting is that they change interiorly. *** M. Sufilight: Sometimes they change so much, that they only write quality emails when the= y=20 write at all. >:-) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Krishtar wrote: That=B4s what I hope to do someday somehow!:-) Regards K +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rajputks@hotmail.com Wed Dec 08 17:31:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78125 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 01:31:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 01:31:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.53.62) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 01:31:35 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 17:31:03 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 210.214.134.54 by by19fd.bay19.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 09 Dec 2004 01:30:19 GMT X-Originating-Email: [rajputks@hotmail.com] X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Cc: mom_dad_hathi@yahoo.com, asbhand@satyam.net.in, dalmiasangita@yahoo.co.in, nrshukla@yahoo.com Bcc: Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 07:00:19 +0530 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Dec 2004 01:31:03.0230 (UTC) FILETIME=[BEF8FDE0:01C4DD8E] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.4.53.62 From: "Kamal Singh Rajput" X-Originating-IP: [210.214.134.54] Subject: Projection of Astral Body - I X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206765605 PROJECTION OF ASTRAL BODY- I It was in the year l961, I was a student of B.Sc. II year. I was found of a cultural magazine, “Bharati” published by Bharatiya Vidya Bhawan, Bombay.( present Mumbai) and edited by the renowned figure Shri Kanhaia Lal Munshi. I came across an article named, “PAR KAYA PRAVESH”. The article described a method to project one’s astral body. According to the method, I kept a fast on a day. I ate nothing. Even water was not taken. At night, I placed water filled pot on a table before my bed. While looking at the pot, I tried to sleep. What I observed? Few glowing white lines came out of my body and reached the pot. What happened after-wards? I do not remember. Probably, it was my first experiment with my astral body. It was an important turning point in my spiritual life. ...Kamal-S-Rajput... _________________________________________________________________ Don’t miss out on jobs that are not advertised. http://goindia.msnserver.com/IN/55250.asp Post your CV on naukri.com today. From eletzerich@yahoo.com Thu Dec 09 02:04:30 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 82002 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 10:04:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 10:04:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.43) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 10:04:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n9.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Dec 2004 10:04:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.178] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Dec 2004 10:04:27 -0000 Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 10:03:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 3920 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.43 From: "Erica Letzerich" X-Originating-IP: 80.76.58.14 Subject: Re: Hilarion X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419 X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich I remember to have read that the first time Blavatsky meet Hilarion was in Egypt, Cairo. She mentions that Hilarion was Greek. As I am=20 making a research about the Mahatmas I would like to collect more material related to the early period of the Theosophical Society about the Adept Hilarion. If anyone has some sources about Hilarion (sources related to the early period of the T.S.) it will be welcome. Making some research I found the following information related to Hilarion: It's said that Hilarion was the author of Light on the Path... Also I found the following in the Letters from the Masters of Wisdom II: 1 From the Master Hilarion, received June 6, 1883. Colonel Olcott writes in that date in his Diary: "Had nice test this a.m. Couldn't decide whether to accept invitations to Colombo or Allahabad first. Put Avinas Ch. Bannerji's letter in shrine, locked door, instantly reopened it and got the written orders of Maha Sahib through Hilarion in French. Done while I stood there and not half a minute had elapsed." The Master H. was in Bombay on February 19, 1881, when He visited both Founders: Colonel Olcott thus writes in his Diary: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet and has been looking over, in, and through the situation. Finds B=97something morally awful. Views on India, Bombay, the T.S. in Bombay, Ceylon (=97), England and Europe, Christianity and other subjects highly interesting." A note in the collected writings: Collected Writings VOLUME VI August, 1884 MR. A. LILLIE'S DELUSIONS [The "Eastern adept" spoken of by H. P. B. in the above article is Hilarion, who lived for a time on the island of Cyprus, and collaborated with H. P. B. in the writing of her occult stories. He signed himself "Hilarion Smerdis." Col. Henry S. Olcott's entry of Feb. 19, 1881, in his Diaries, says: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet, and has been looking over, in and through the situation . . . " This entry was made in Bombay. Master K. H. refers also to this journey of Hilarion from Cyprus to Tibet (Mahatma Letters, p. 289).=96=96Compiler.] Also the following: ON THE HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF "SOME INQUIRIES SUGGESTED BY MR SINNETT'S ESOTERIC BUDDHISM" Collected Writings VOLUME V Sept., Oct., Nov., 1883 In this text there the original letter in Master Hilarion's handwriting which is preserved in the Archives of The Theosophical Society at Adyar, Madras, India. The letter says the following: "Maha Sahib, with whom I am at the moment, orders me to say that the most reasonable plan would be to make a tour of about a month in the neighboring districts. From Tinnevelly or even from Malabar the Colonel could go to Colombo for a few days=97but only for a few days=97 to encourage them and to recharge them with his personal =C2k=E2=D1a=97whic= h could not fail to be beneficial to them. The Societies of the South are in need of his vivifying presence. Going round about within the Presidency, he could thus be recalled at any time to Headquarters, should there be need. July 17 would be the proper time to go to the Northern Provinces, visiting all the Societies on the road, from Bellary to Poona, etc. "Maha Sahib begs the Colonel not to risk his health too much. His advice would be to use a magnetic tile on the heads of three or four people here and to try to enter into relation with [the R=E2jahs of] Venkatagiri and Vizianagram. For that there is enough time till June 17. Let him make a plan and present it." Also in the extracts of Colonell Olcott diary we find the following about Hilarion: Tuesday, November 27. p .m. Damodar returned looking haggard, but more tough and wiry than before. He is now a new man indeed. Brought me a message from Hilarion. Also the following: The Adept-Brother known as Hilarion, Ilarion, and Hillarion Smerdis, who, among other things, collaborated with H.P.B. in the writing of her occult stories. C.W. Vol. I compilers note Erica From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Thu Dec 09 02:29:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66296 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 10:29:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 10:29:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp4.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.180) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 10:29:06 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [201.2.204.93]) by smtp4.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C759333F00; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:27:52 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.7]); Thu, 09 Dec 2004 08:26:41 -0200 Message-ID: <001101c4ddd9$92b20b00$0301010a@versus> To: Cc: , , , References: Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:26:41 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.180 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Projection of Astral Body - FEAR X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi I once knew this experiment in another form, a psychic friend taught me a variation of your experience. He told me that if we keep a water fast for hours and quite before the bedtime ( he insisted that it must be not when you are feeling speepy 'cause if you fall asleep you'll not remember anything later) we put a tiny portion of salt on the tongue and before going to bed you live a glass of water a few steps from the bed, after relaxation it is easier to project the astral body. Did you try it later? I read once that when we wake up in the astral, all the surroundings seems to be illuminated by a yellowish light and all things look as if seen through a mirror ( inverted). There is a big institute in Brazil called IIPC which concentrates tons of books and courses on Projeciology. I gess I still do not have the nerve to do it, I am still scared of the inhabitants and their influences of this plane when this particular Siddhi wakes up in us.... Krishtar Brazil ----- Original Message ----- From: Kamal Singh Rajput To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Cc: mom_dad_hathi@yahoo.com ; asbhand@satyam.net.in ; dalmiasangita@yahoo.co.in ; nrshukla@yahoo.com Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 11:30 PM Subject: Theos-World Projection of Astral Body - I PROJECTION OF ASTRAL BODY- I It was in the year l961, I was a student of B.Sc. II year. I was found of a cultural magazine, "Bharati" published by Bharatiya Vidya Bhawan, Bombay.( present Mumbai) and edited by the renowned figure Shri Kanhaia Lal Munshi. I came across an article named, "PAR KAYA PRAVESH". The article described a method to project one's astral body. According to the method, I kept a fast on a day. I ate nothing. Even water was not taken. At night, I placed water filled pot on a table before my bed. While looking at the pot, I tried to sleep. What I observed? Few glowing white lines came out of my body and reached the pot. What happened after-wards? I do not remember. Probably, it was my first experiment with my astral body. It was an important turning point in my spiritual life. ...Kamal-S-Rajput... _________________________________________________________________ Don't miss out on jobs that are not advertised. http://goindia.msnserver.com/IN/55250.asp Post your CV on naukri.com today. Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Thu Dec 09 02:45:16 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 28676 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 10:45:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 10:45:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.158) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 10:45:15 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [201.2.204.93]) by smtp2.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C383539 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:45:08 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.7]); Thu, 09 Dec 2004 08:36:27 -0200 Message-ID: <002b01c4ddda$f003b3c0$0301010a@versus> To: References: Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:36:27 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.158 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hilarion X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Erica If we look for His references outside the theosophical texts there will be = lots of presumed channeled messages from Him. Summit lighthouse for example offers channeled texts that are mostly dreadf= ul stuff in their literature. Clair Prophet=B4s works at Summit and other sub-branches seem a great " via= gem na maionese" ( daydreaming), IMHO, of course. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Erica Letzerich=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:03 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: Hilarion I remember to have read that the first time Blavatsky meet Hilarion was in Egypt, Cairo. She mentions that Hilarion was Greek. As I am=20 making a research about the Mahatmas I would like to collect more material related to the early period of the Theosophical Society about the Adept Hilarion. If anyone has some sources about Hilarion (sources related to the early period of the T.S.) it will be welcome. Making some research I found the following information related to Hilarion: It's said that Hilarion was the author of Light on the Path... Also I found the following in the Letters from the Masters of Wisdom II: 1 From the Master Hilarion, received June 6, 1883. Colonel Olcott writes in that date in his Diary: "Had nice test this a.m. Couldn't decide whether to accept invitations to Colombo or Allahabad first. Put Avinas Ch. Bannerji's letter in shrine, locked door, instantly reopened it and got the written orders of Maha Sahib through Hilarion in French. Done while I stood there and not half a minute had elapsed." The Master H. was in Bombay on February 19, 1881, when He visited both Founders: Colonel Olcott thus writes in his Diary: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet and has been looking over, in, and through the situation. Finds B-something morally awful. Views on India, Bombay, the T.S. in Bombay, Ceylon (-), England and Europe, Christianity and other subjects highly interesting." A note in the collected writings: Collected Writings VOLUME VI August, 1884 MR. A. LILLIE'S DELUSIONS [The "Eastern adept" spoken of by H. P. B. in the above article is Hilarion, who lived for a time on the island of Cyprus, and collaborated with H. P. B. in the writing of her occult stories. He signed himself "Hilarion Smerdis." Col. Henry S. Olcott's entry of Feb. 19, 1881, in his Diaries, says: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet, and has been looking over, in and through the situation . . . " This entry was made in Bombay. Master K. H. refers also to this journey of Hilarion from Cyprus to Tibet (Mahatma Letters, p. 289).--Compiler.] Also the following: ON THE HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF "SOME INQUIRIES SUGGESTED BY MR SINNETT'S ESOTERIC BUDDHISM" Collected Writings VOLUME V Sept., Oct., Nov., 1883 In this text there the original letter in Master Hilarion's handwriting which is preserved in the Archives of The Theosophical Society at Adyar, Madras, India. The letter says the following: "Maha Sahib, with whom I am at the moment, orders me to say that the most reasonable plan would be to make a tour of about a month in the neighboring districts. From Tinnevelly or even from Malabar the Colonel could go to Colombo for a few days-but only for a few days- to encourage them and to recharge them with his personal =C2k=E2=D1a-whic= h could not fail to be beneficial to them. The Societies of the South are in need of his vivifying presence. Going round about within the Presidency, he could thus be recalled at any time to Headquarters, should there be need. July 17 would be the proper time to go to the Northern Provinces, visiting all the Societies on the road, from Bellary to Poona, etc. "Maha Sahib begs the Colonel not to risk his health too much. His advice would be to use a magnetic tile on the heads of three or four people here and to try to enter into relation with [the R=E2jahs of] Venkatagiri and Vizianagram. For that there is enough time till June 17. Let him make a plan and present it." Also in the extracts of Colonell Olcott diary we find the following about Hilarion: Tuesday, November 27. p .m. Damodar returned looking haggard, but more tough and wiry than before. He is now a new man indeed. Brought me a message from Hilarion. Also the following: The Adept-Brother known as Hilarion, Ilarion, and Hillarion Smerdis, who, among other things, collaborated with H.P.B. in the writing of her occult stories. C.W. Vol. I compilers note Erica =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eletzerich@yahoo.com Thu Dec 09 02:52:39 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35837 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 10:52:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 10:52:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web54106.mail.yahoo.com) (206.190.37.241) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 10:52:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 90260 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Dec 2004 10:52:33 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=jHFKyt/EBz91ytyk71zVE7P/P2MPcpNPDFjHE0wHi2ymij8abAL12K7dtgxml6febKSOMqC+qzv5gxR9SIaTLppZYZoJzNI0tg+b/fqXT6wsyPfnMDLWz8NRmnG78ILVWeh3xcd0c9Oa6zoAV+rLqDziEv03dOH8YsOuDLXqth8= ; Message-ID: <20041209105233.90258.qmail@web54106.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [80.76.58.14] by web54106.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 09 Dec 2004 02:52:32 PST Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 02:52:32 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <002b01c4ddda$f003b3c0$0301010a@versus> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 206.190.37.241 From: Erica Letzerich Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hilarion X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419 X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Krishtar, =20 I know that, but I do not recognize no one of the sources you mentioned bel= ow authentic. Channelling is a trap in my opinion, and it can be no more th= an expressions of their imagination mixed with some knowledge that the chan= nel may have. I am really looking to get some more references about Hilario= n present in the early history of the Theosophical Society. I do not consid= er even Geoffrey Hodson=92s books a recommendable source. As I have read ma= ny of Hodson=92s books and I doubt deeply he was ever in contact with the M= ahatmas. Thank you for the feedback anyway. =20 Erica krishtar wrote: Hi Erica If we look for His references outside the theosophical texts there will be = lots of presumed channeled messages from Him. Summit lighthouse for example offers channeled texts that are mostly dreadf= ul stuff in their literature. Clair Prophet=B4s works at Summit and other sub-branches seem a great " via= gem na maionese" ( daydreaming), IMHO, of course. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Erica Letzerich=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:03 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: Hilarion I remember to have read that the first time Blavatsky meet Hilarion was in Egypt, Cairo. She mentions that Hilarion was Greek. As I am=20 making a research about the Mahatmas I would like to collect more material related to the early period of the Theosophical Society about the Adept Hilarion. If anyone has some sources about Hilarion (sources related to the early period of the T.S.) it will be welcome. Making some research I found the following information related to Hilarion: It's said that Hilarion was the author of Light on the Path... Also I found the following in the Letters from the Masters of Wisdom II: 1 From the Master Hilarion, received June 6, 1883. Colonel Olcott writes in that date in his Diary: "Had nice test this a.m. Couldn't decide whether to accept invitations to Colombo or Allahabad first. Put Avinas Ch. Bannerji's letter in shrine, locked door, instantly reopened it and got the written orders of Maha Sahib through Hilarion in French. Done while I stood there and not half a minute had elapsed." The Master H. was in Bombay on February 19, 1881, when He visited both Founders: Colonel Olcott thus writes in his Diary: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet and has been looking over, in, and through the situation. Finds B-something morally awful. Views on India, Bombay, the T.S. in Bombay, Ceylon (-), England and Europe, Christianity and other subjects highly interesting." A note in the collected writings: Collected Writings VOLUME VI August, 1884 MR. A. LILLIE'S DELUSIONS [The "Eastern adept" spoken of by H. P. B. in the above article is Hilarion, who lived for a time on the island of Cyprus, and collaborated with H. P. B. in the writing of her occult stories. He signed himself "Hilarion Smerdis." Col. Henry S. Olcott's entry of Feb. 19, 1881, in his Diaries, says: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet, and has been looking over, in and through the situation . . . " This entry was made in Bombay. Master K. H. refers also to this journey of Hilarion from Cyprus to Tibet (Mahatma Letters, p. 289).--Compiler.] Also the following: ON THE HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF "SOME INQUIRIES SUGGESTED BY MR SINNETT'S ESOTERIC BUDDHISM" Collected Writings VOLUME V Sept., Oct., Nov., 1883 In this text there the original letter in Master Hilarion's handwriting which is preserved in the Archives of The Theosophical Society at Adyar, Madras, India. The letter says the following: "Maha Sahib, with whom I am at the moment, orders me to say that the most reasonable plan would be to make a tour of about a month in the neighboring districts. From Tinnevelly or even from Malabar the Colonel could go to Colombo for a few days-but only for a few days- to encourage them and to recharge them with his personal =C2k=E2=D1a-which could not fail to be beneficial to them. The Societies of the South are in need of his vivifying presence. Going round about within the Presidency, he could thus be recalled at any time to Headquarters, should there be need. July 17 would be the proper time to go to the Northern Provinces, visiting all the Societies on the road, from Bellary to Poona, etc. "Maha Sahib begs the Colonel not to risk his health too much. His advice would be to use a magnetic tile on the heads of three or four people here and to try to enter into relation with [the R=E2jahs of] Venkatagiri and Vizianagram. For that there is enough time till June 17. Let him make a plan and present it." Also in the extracts of Colonell Olcott diary we find the following about Hilarion: Tuesday, November 27. p .m. Damodar returned looking haggard, but more tough and wiry than before. He is now a new man indeed. Brought me a message from Hilarion. Also the following: The Adept-Brother known as Hilarion, Ilarion, and Hillarion Smerdis, who, among other things, collaborated with H.P.B. in the writing of her occult stories. C.W. Vol. I compilers note Erica Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Erica Letzerich .'. =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eletzerich@yahoo.com Thu Dec 09 03:00:21 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2816 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 11:00:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 11:00:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web54103.mail.yahoo.com) (206.190.37.238) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 11:00:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 51626 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Dec 2004 11:00:14 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=c5ubWidPzLVPlfFa9P8iKGQpw1BWQPNn5/q0OjvyJwFwIpaaqt6IB+RrrOENL/Da9rZTbnbxn+LLwWMuSZWVzSEzGCQEz6s7LB4HoAn6BJjNijVabQyh/GMufuex+XMIvkoSyNroo8QCF1ke61SGFk0/4W0anvBRvPFWNzVoTwE= ; Message-ID: <20041209110014.51624.qmail@web54103.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [80.76.58.14] by web54103.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 09 Dec 2004 03:00:14 PST Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 03:00:14 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <002b01c4ddda$f003b3c0$0301010a@versus> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 206.190.37.238 From: Erica Letzerich Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hilarion X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419 X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Krishtar, =20 Ha, I liked the viagem na maionese... :) First time I hear this expression. =20 Erica=20 krishtar wrote: Hi Erica If we look for His references outside the theosophical texts there will be = lots of presumed channeled messages from Him. Summit lighthouse for example offers channeled texts that are mostly dreadf= ul stuff in their literature. Clair Prophet=B4s works at Summit and other sub-branches seem a great " via= gem na maionese" ( daydreaming), IMHO, of course. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Erica Letzerich=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:03 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: Hilarion I remember to have read that the first time Blavatsky meet Hilarion was in Egypt, Cairo. She mentions that Hilarion was Greek. As I am=20 making a research about the Mahatmas I would like to collect more material related to the early period of the Theosophical Society about the Adept Hilarion. If anyone has some sources about Hilarion (sources related to the early period of the T.S.) it will be welcome. Making some research I found the following information related to Hilarion: It's said that Hilarion was the author of Light on the Path... Also I found the following in the Letters from the Masters of Wisdom II: 1 From the Master Hilarion, received June 6, 1883. Colonel Olcott writes in that date in his Diary: "Had nice test this a.m. Couldn't decide whether to accept invitations to Colombo or Allahabad first. Put Avinas Ch. Bannerji's letter in shrine, locked door, instantly reopened it and got the written orders of Maha Sahib through Hilarion in French. Done while I stood there and not half a minute had elapsed." The Master H. was in Bombay on February 19, 1881, when He visited both Founders: Colonel Olcott thus writes in his Diary: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet and has been looking over, in, and through the situation. Finds B-something morally awful. Views on India, Bombay, the T.S. in Bombay, Ceylon (-), England and Europe, Christianity and other subjects highly interesting." A note in the collected writings: Collected Writings VOLUME VI August, 1884 MR. A. LILLIE'S DELUSIONS [The "Eastern adept" spoken of by H. P. B. in the above article is Hilarion, who lived for a time on the island of Cyprus, and collaborated with H. P. B. in the writing of her occult stories. He signed himself "Hilarion Smerdis." Col. Henry S. Olcott's entry of Feb. 19, 1881, in his Diaries, says: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet, and has been looking over, in and through the situation . . . " This entry was made in Bombay. Master K. H. refers also to this journey of Hilarion from Cyprus to Tibet (Mahatma Letters, p. 289).--Compiler.] Also the following: ON THE HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF "SOME INQUIRIES SUGGESTED BY MR SINNETT'S ESOTERIC BUDDHISM" Collected Writings VOLUME V Sept., Oct., Nov., 1883 In this text there the original letter in Master Hilarion's handwriting which is preserved in the Archives of The Theosophical Society at Adyar, Madras, India. The letter says the following: "Maha Sahib, with whom I am at the moment, orders me to say that the most reasonable plan would be to make a tour of about a month in the neighboring districts. From Tinnevelly or even from Malabar the Colonel could go to Colombo for a few days-but only for a few days- to encourage them and to recharge them with his personal =C2k=E2=D1a-which could not fail to be beneficial to them. The Societies of the South are in need of his vivifying presence. Going round about within the Presidency, he could thus be recalled at any time to Headquarters, should there be need. July 17 would be the proper time to go to the Northern Provinces, visiting all the Societies on the road, from Bellary to Poona, etc. "Maha Sahib begs the Colonel not to risk his health too much. His advice would be to use a magnetic tile on the heads of three or four people here and to try to enter into relation with [the R=E2jahs of] Venkatagiri and Vizianagram. For that there is enough time till June 17. Let him make a plan and present it." Also in the extracts of Colonell Olcott diary we find the following about Hilarion: Tuesday, November 27. p .m. Damodar returned looking haggard, but more tough and wiry than before. He is now a new man indeed. Brought me a message from Hilarion. Also the following: The Adept-Brother known as Hilarion, Ilarion, and Hillarion Smerdis, who, among other things, collaborated with H.P.B. in the writing of her occult stories. C.W. Vol. I compilers note Erica Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Erica Letzerich .'. =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eletzerich@yahoo.com Thu Dec 09 03:11:15 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 36170 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 11:11:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 11:11:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web54106.mail.yahoo.com) (206.190.37.241) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 11:11:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 96449 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Dec 2004 11:11:06 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=onoJ4UhRx8A6aEm7lNUd7gd8m3uvurGC8rTyeiMD2fpY1hD8AgambiE3DjJeEuI5EsqhfxytyNoED3EUe9RsYJV/X7OupOL6uWp/t0cZ3uBw3En/KrTQQ2eXFSGLCHj5igr5mQXQts8d3jDP86vQs+BHdolTbyto96gDcMMap4s= ; Message-ID: <20041209111106.96447.qmail@web54106.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [80.76.58.14] by web54106.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 09 Dec 2004 03:11:05 PST Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 03:11:05 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20041209110014.51624.qmail@web54103.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 206.190.37.241 From: Erica Letzerich Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hilarion X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419 X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe someone has his address in Egypt, I would be also happy with the addr= ess of the Luxor Brotherhood, any phone numbers or e-mail? :)=20 =20 Two hours fly from Athens to Cairo and that is it. He of someone related t= o him could give me the direct answers I am looking for :)...=20 =20 Erica Erica Letzerich wrote: Hi Krishtar, Ha, I liked the viagem na maionese... :) First time I hear this expression. Erica=20 krishtar wrote: Hi Erica If we look for His references outside the theosophical texts there will be = lots of presumed channeled messages from Him. Summit lighthouse for example offers channeled texts that are mostly dreadf= ul stuff in their literature. Clair Prophet=B4s works at Summit and other sub-branches seem a great " via= gem na maionese" ( daydreaming), IMHO, of course. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Erica Letzerich=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:03 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: Hilarion I remember to have read that the first time Blavatsky meet Hilarion was in Egypt, Cairo. She mentions that Hilarion was Greek. As I am=20 making a research about the Mahatmas I would like to collect more material related to the early period of the Theosophical Society about the Adept Hilarion. If anyone has some sources about Hilarion (sources related to the early period of the T.S.) it will be welcome. Making some research I found the following information related to Hilarion: It's said that Hilarion was the author of Light on the Path... Also I found the following in the Letters from the Masters of Wisdom II: 1 From the Master Hilarion, received June 6, 1883. Colonel Olcott writes in that date in his Diary: "Had nice test this a.m. Couldn't decide whether to accept invitations to Colombo or Allahabad first. Put Avinas Ch. Bannerji's letter in shrine, locked door, instantly reopened it and got the written orders of Maha Sahib through Hilarion in French. Done while I stood there and not half a minute had elapsed." The Master H. was in Bombay on February 19, 1881, when He visited both Founders: Colonel Olcott thus writes in his Diary: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet and has been looking over, in, and through the situation. Finds B-something morally awful. Views on India, Bombay, the T.S. in Bombay, Ceylon (-), England and Europe, Christianity and other subjects highly interesting." A note in the collected writings: Collected Writings VOLUME VI August, 1884 MR. A. LILLIE'S DELUSIONS [The "Eastern adept" spoken of by H. P. B. in the above article is Hilarion, who lived for a time on the island of Cyprus, and collaborated with H. P. B. in the writing of her occult stories. He signed himself "Hilarion Smerdis." Col. Henry S. Olcott's entry of Feb. 19, 1881, in his Diaries, says: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet, and has been looking over, in and through the situation . . . " This entry was made in Bombay. Master K. H. refers also to this journey of Hilarion from Cyprus to Tibet (Mahatma Letters, p. 289).--Compiler.] Also the following: ON THE HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF "SOME INQUIRIES SUGGESTED BY MR SINNETT'S ESOTERIC BUDDHISM" Collected Writings VOLUME V Sept., Oct., Nov., 1883 In this text there the original letter in Master Hilarion's handwriting which is preserved in the Archives of The Theosophical Society at Adyar, Madras, India. The letter says the following: "Maha Sahib, with whom I am at the moment, orders me to say that the most reasonable plan would be to make a tour of about a month in the neighboring districts. From Tinnevelly or even from Malabar the Colonel could go to Colombo for a few days-but only for a few days- to encourage them and to recharge them with his personal =C2k=E2=D1a-which could not fail to be beneficial to them. The Societies of the South are in need of his vivifying presence. Going round about within the Presidency, he could thus be recalled at any time to Headquarters, should there be need. July 17 would be the proper time to go to the Northern Provinces, visiting all the Societies on the road, from Bellary to Poona, etc. "Maha Sahib begs the Colonel not to risk his health too much. His advice would be to use a magnetic tile on the heads of three or four people here and to try to enter into relation with [the R=E2jahs of] Venkatagiri and Vizianagram. For that there is enough time till June 17. Let him make a plan and present it." Also in the extracts of Colonell Olcott diary we find the following about Hilarion: Tuesday, November 27. p .m. Damodar returned looking haggard, but more tough and wiry than before. He is now a new man indeed. Brought me a message from Hilarion. Also the following: The Adept-Brother known as Hilarion, Ilarion, and Hillarion Smerdis, who, among other things, collaborated with H.P.B. in the writing of her occult stories. C.W. Vol. I compilers note Erica Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Erica Letzerich .'. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Erica Letzerich .'. =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page =96 Try My Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Dec 09 03:25:55 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51823 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 11:25:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 11:25:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m17.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.207) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 11:25:53 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.f.39fe095f (3972); Thu, 9 Dec 2004 06:25:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 06:25:43 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, study@blavatsky.net, esotericcosmology@yahoogroups.com, mstewart@sunshine.org, CPSkater@aol.com, ThermalMan@aol.com, MaurerPowr@aol.com, SHERIME@aol.com, john-bonnie@comcast.net, cwolfish@bu.edu, pathfinder@mindspring.com, mrsangelkiss@hotmail.com, BartlettRH@aol.com, thoth@skthoth.com, reginald@pipeline.com, dnewel@hotmail.com, Dmsartisan@aol.com, bhershkowitz@yahoo.com, RJSage3@aol.com, rickmaurer@allwirelesssolutions.com, Bretster900@aol.com, philsmac@sbcglobal.net, j0komo@yahoo.com, BigBrotherNorm@optonline.net, rayneinstein@hotmail.com, ferrisbj@hotmail.com, tina313tina@comcast.net, nmaurer@hbs.edu, nmaurer@itam.mx, JDChrchLn@aol.com, hometheater@adelphia.net, hometheater@consultant.com, arabella1@juno.com, GJPEPE@msn.com, edmaurer@verizon.net, dandescu@comcast.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.138.207 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: How fractal evolution works X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How fractal evolution works -- to build universes, brains, trees, etc. To stop animation click on picture in letter or after downloading and opening in browser. Enjoy, Lenny [Unable to display image] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Thu Dec 09 05:32:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41026 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 13:32:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 13:32:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp4.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 13:32:28 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [201.2.204.93]) by smtp4.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84DAC33FFD for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:31:46 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.7]); Thu, 09 Dec 2004 11:30:30 -0200 Message-ID: <003b01c4ddf3$40626c40$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041209105233.90258.qmail@web54106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:30:29 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.180 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hilarion X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi If you read carefully my last post you=B4ll see that I also agree with you. I =B4ve developed naturally the faculty of chanelling some years ago but I = do not use it. The quest is how to identify and to tell from what is mind=B4s fantasy , pu= re thoughts taken from the astral chains, akasa, etc.=20 What I can also see is that many mediums are using the word Channeling for = their mediumship to atract other classes of people =B4cause the term Chanel= ling is more modern than mediumship. My position is that if you can not get aware what you=B4re dealing with, do= not deal with it. There are also some cases in which schizofrenia is also involved as once Da= llas T. talked about. Fortunately most of the masters that were in communication with HPB did all= the work with anonymity, or there would be lots of people claiming being i= n contact with them due to the reputation atributed to the SD and other wor= ks. Geofrey like Leadbeater also had his psychic powers in evidence and their o= bservations are also a matter for a deeper discussion. Regardz Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Erica Letzerich=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:52 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hilarion Hi Krishtar, =20=20=20 I know that, but I do not recognize no one of the sources you mentioned b= elow authentic. Channelling is a trap in my opinion, and it can be no more = than expressions of their imagination mixed with some knowledge that the ch= annel may have. I am really looking to get some more references about Hilar= ion present in the early history of the Theosophical Society. I do not cons= ider even Geoffrey Hodson's books a recommendable source. As I have read ma= ny of Hodson's books and I doubt deeply he was ever in contact with the Mah= atmas. Thank you for the feedback anyway. =20=20=20 Erica krishtar wrote: Hi Erica If we look for His references outside the theosophical texts there will b= e lots of presumed channeled messages from Him. Summit lighthouse for example offers channeled texts that are mostly drea= dful stuff in their literature. Clair Prophet=B4s works at Summit and other sub-branches seem a great " v= iagem na maionese" ( daydreaming), IMHO, of course. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Erica Letzerich=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:03 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: Hilarion I remember to have read that the first time Blavatsky meet Hilarion was in Egypt, Cairo. She mentions that Hilarion was Greek. As I am=20 making a research about the Mahatmas I would like to collect more material related to the early period of the Theosophical Society about the Adept Hilarion. If anyone has some sources about Hilarion (sources related to the early period of the T.S.) it will be welcome. Making some research I found the following information related to Hilarion: It's said that Hilarion was the author of Light on the Path... Also I found the following in the Letters from the Masters of Wisdom II: 1 From the Master Hilarion, received June 6, 1883. Colonel Olcott writes in that date in his Diary: "Had nice test this a.m. Couldn't decide whether to accept invitations to Colombo or Allahabad first. Put Avinas Ch. Bannerji's letter in shrine, locked door, instantly reopened it and got the written orders of Maha Sahib through Hilarion in French. Done while I stood there and not half a minute had elapsed." The Master H. was in Bombay on February 19, 1881, when He visited both Founders: Colonel Olcott thus writes in his Diary: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet and has been looking over, in, and through the situation. Finds B-something morally awful. Views on India, Bombay, the T.S. in Bombay, Ceylon (-), England and Europe, Christianity and other subjects highly interesting." A note in the collected writings: Collected Writings VOLUME VI August, 1884 MR. A. LILLIE'S DELUSIONS [The "Eastern adept" spoken of by H. P. B. in the above article is Hilarion, who lived for a time on the island of Cyprus, and collaborated with H. P. B. in the writing of her occult stories. He signed himself "Hilarion Smerdis." Col. Henry S. Olcott's entry of Feb. 19, 1881, in his Diaries, says: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet, and has been looking over, in and through the situation . . . " This entry was made in Bombay. Master K. H. refers also to this journey of Hilarion from Cyprus to Tibet (Mahatma Letters, p. 289).--Compiler.] Also the following: ON THE HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF "SOME INQUIRIES SUGGESTED BY MR SINNETT'S ESOTERIC BUDDHISM" Collected Writings VOLUME V Sept., Oct., Nov., 1883 In this text there the original letter in Master Hilarion's handwriting which is preserved in the Archives of The Theosophical Society at Adyar, Madras, India. The letter says the following: "Maha Sahib, with whom I am at the moment, orders me to say that the most reasonable plan would be to make a tour of about a month in the neighboring districts. From Tinnevelly or even from Malabar the Colonel could go to Colombo for a few days-but only for a few days- to encourage them and to recharge them with his personal =C2k=E2=D1a-whic= h could not fail to be beneficial to them. The Societies of the South are in need of his vivifying presence. Going round about within the Presidency, he could thus be recalled at any time to Headquarters, should there be need. July 17 would be the proper time to go to the Northern Provinces, visiting all the Societies on the road, from Bellary to Poona, etc. "Maha Sahib begs the Colonel not to risk his health too much. His advice would be to use a magnetic tile on the heads of three or four people here and to try to enter into relation with [the R=E2jahs of] Venkatagiri and Vizianagram. For that there is enough time till June 17. Let him make a plan and present it." Also in the extracts of Colonell Olcott diary we find the following about Hilarion: Tuesday, November 27. p .m. Damodar returned looking haggard, but more tough and wiry than before. He is now a new man indeed. Brought me a message from Hilarion. Also the following: The Adept-Brother known as Hilarion, Ilarion, and Hillarion Smerdis, who, among other things, collaborated with H.P.B. in the writing of her occult stories. C.W. Vol. I compilers note Erica Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Erica Letzerich .'. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Dec 10 14:51:28 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 92343 invoked from network); 10 Dec 2004 22:51:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Dec 2004 22:51:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Dec 2004 22:51:27 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.185] (helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Cctbg-0006sl-QG for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 10 Dec 2004 22:51:25 +0000 Message-ID: <41BA28FB.2060700@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:53:47 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on omega.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.125 From: Mauri Subject: re crop circles in relation to ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Elsewhere somebody asked me about crop circles in relation to "Avataras." So ... ^:-/ ... While one might speculate about how an "Avatar" (in whatever sense/context, per whatever defining influence) might be seen in relation to "possible experiences" in one's apparent here-and-now or "real" world or worldview ... I wonder if, maybe, some sort of Master/s or Avatar/s (or "civilizer/s" like Varichoca, Kukulkan, Quetzalcoatl, Osiris, etc, as per Graham Hancock's FINGERPRINTS OF THE GODS, eg) might these days use crop circles as an introduction or influence for whatever else they might have in mind. Of course, on the other hand, inasmuchas if crop circles in general are regarded as fairly neutral (or vague, vapid, dull, uninteresting, meaningless, etc, per whatever interpretive tendencies or influences ...) in terms of how they might be generally interpreted ... what can we say ... I wonder if the general perception might be or might tend to be that they're not "intelligible enough," maybe, because of which ... whatever ... not that they seem particularly neutral to me. Seems to me that, in their way, they might be seen (at times, maybe, by some people, I'm speculating ...) as providing for rather compelling evidence why some alternate interpretations, (by way of some sort of significant enough contrast, in some cases, to orthodox/conventional views), in general, or at times, might be seen to play a significant enough and crucial enough role or potential role in whatever sense/context. Eg, the current controversies surrounding the sustainability of the global environment come to mind in terms of contrasts between orthodox/conventional influences vs. progressive/alternate influences. And if crops are seen as related to the environment, eg ... Seems to me that the crop circles are very visibly drawing the attention of the human race. It's as if they're alerting us (some of us, maybe ...) to wake up to some realities, and yet they're not spelling out anything for us in so many words, leaving us to decide for ourselves how we want to wake up to whatever, if at all. I'm tending to speculate that that kind of approach/influence might be one used by those who might be knowingly working within karmic limits. At any rate, I seem to have a hard time speculating about how the crop circles might've "just materialized in some natural way that hasn't been discovered, yet." I suspect that that latter "explanation" might generally tend to be in keeping with the orthodox/conventional/mainstream view ... Speculatively, Mauri From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 11:11:51 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5216 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 19:11:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.36) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.115] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:43 -0000 X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 52930 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 17:08:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 17:08:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.46) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 17:08:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n17.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 17:08:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 17:08:07 -0000 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 17:08:07 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 986 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.46 From: "aupanishad2300" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Intro X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:39 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.36 I've been a member of the Theosophical Society of Pasadena for many years, and have been a member of this discussion group once before but left of my own accord for personal reasons. I'm a military retiree and disabled, but have been familiar with Theosophy since I was about 17 years old (I'm 59 now). Thank you for accepting me back into the group and I will try to add something worthwhile to the discussion, although it may be slightly off-track sometimes. I see Theosophy, as WQJ put it, a vast ocean of knowledge, and it is capable of absorbing anything and everything, but will never be full. If anyone has any personal questions, my email address is: aupanishad@msn.com I use the name Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali because I once joined the religion of Islam, and although I quit practicing it after the 1993 WTC bombings, I still love it and try to live its spirit of love and peace which is how I understand submission to Allah. Andrew Smith [Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali] From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 11:11:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 50952 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 19:11:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.24) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n13.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.162] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:52 -0000 X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 77442 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 17:38:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 17:38:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.112) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 17:38:08 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:38:07 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV8.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 17:37:58 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:38:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:38:02 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2004 17:38:07.0573 (UTC) FILETIME=[2D009850:01C4DFA8] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.112 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: [excerpt] Kabir X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:51 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.24 O SERVANT, where dost thou seek Me? Lo! I am beside thee. I am neither in temple nor in mosque: I am neither in Kaaba nor in Kailash: Neither am I in rites and ceremonies, nor in Yoga and renunciation. If thou art a true seeker, thou shalt at once see Me: thou shalt meet Me in= a moment of time. Kab=EEr says, "O Sadhu! God is the breath of all breath." Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 11:12:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 91795 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 19:12:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 19:12:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.24) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 19:12:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n13.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.163] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:58 -0000 X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 11621 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 18:43:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 18:43:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.173.57) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 18:43:06 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:42:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV27.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:41:03 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:41:06 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:41:06 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2004 18:42:01.0605 (UTC) FILETIME=[1A437350:01C4DFB1] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.173.57 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: Urantia Book Reference X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:56 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.24 http://mercy.urantia.org/papers/paper115.html Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 11:12:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 67459 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 19:12:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 19:12:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.42) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 19:12:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:12:04 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.181] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:12:04 -0000 X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 85765 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 18:57:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 18:57:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.119) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 18:57:10 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:57:00 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV15.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:56:38 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:56:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:56:42 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2004 18:57:00.0572 (UTC) FILETIME=[3216EDC0:01C4DFB3] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.119 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: "Thinking and Destiny" [excerpt] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:59 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.42 GOD, A: is a thought being, created by the thoughts of human beings as the representative of the greatness of what they feel or fear; as what any one would or might like to be, to will, and to do. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 11:13:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 55972 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 19:13:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 19:13:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.42) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 19:13:26 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.189] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:47 -0000 X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74713 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 17:29:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 17:29:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.173.61) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 17:29:24 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:29:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV31.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 17:28:54 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP" , "GROUP" , "GROUP" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Temple Prostitute" , "JOYCE SMITH" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:28:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:28:58 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2004 17:29:01.0501 (UTC) FILETIME=[E7849ED0:01C4DFA6] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.173.61 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: Creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:47 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.42 I have run across several books that advocate that we, humanity, are in the process of "creating God" in some way. Have any of you seen this anywhere? I found it in "The Urantia Book" where it talks about "The Supreme Being" and also in Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny." (Both are available free on the net. I can furnish the URLs if necessary) I guess the theory is that as we collectively progress in an evolutionary way, we bind together to create a "super Being" of some sort. Note that this is not the Mormon doctrine where we each become Gods, but an evolutionary idea where we are collectively "God". This sounds almost like "The Borg" of scifi fame. Have any of you heard of this or does anyone else advocate it? I'm fascinated by this concept. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From avalook7@hotmail.com Sat Dec 11 11:18:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 81743 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 19:18:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 19:18:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.43) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 19:18:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n9.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:18:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:18:09 -0000 X-Sender: avalook7@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72073 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 12:53:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 12:53:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.51) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 12:53:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n22.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Dec 2004 12:52:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.118] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Dec 2004 12:52:22 -0000 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 12:52:18 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041208053736.85593.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 879 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.51 From: "lalaya7" X-Originating-IP: 161.148.208.203 Subject: Re: Hodgson Report X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121455975 X-Yahoo-Profile: lalaya7 X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 11 Dec 2004 19:18:07 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.43 Hello Pedro! I have never found the entire Hogsdons Report in the internet. Maybe you can find Vernom Harrison's book, correctin Hogsdon. I guess the report is attached to the book and I am also glad to tell you that Vernom Harrison's book will be publsihed in Portuguese next year. --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Pedro Oliveira wrote: > Is there an online edition of the full text of > the(1885) SPR "Report of the Committee Appointed to > Investigate Phenomena Connected with The Theosophical > Society", also known as the "Hodgson Report"? > > So far I have only found critical studies of the > Report, but not the Report itself. Any information is > appreciated. > > Pedro > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 11:19:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 42859 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 19:19:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 19:19:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 19:19:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:17:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.185] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:17:58 -0000 X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75305 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 19:04:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 19:04:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.125) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 19:04:42 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:04:00 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV21.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:03:35 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 13:03:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 13:03:39 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2004 19:04:00.0547 (UTC) FILETIME=[2C6A0730:01C4DFB4] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.125 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: Ref: "Thinking and Destiny" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 11 Dec 2004 19:17:58 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.39 http://www.word-foundation.com/tnd/CHAPTER%20X.htm Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Sat Dec 11 17:40:54 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 57728 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 01:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 01:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 01:40:53 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-102-050-015.fnsce7004.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.102.50.15]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0CA8340C for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:40:51 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.5.0]); Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:39:23 -0200 Message-ID: <001b01c4dfeb$681c24c0$0301010a@versus> To: References: Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:39:22 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Friend Though I haven=B4t read this book which I own in an electronic Spanish vers= ion, I have a closely view but not that we are invent-ING, build-ING up a G= od. I gess that amost totality of humankind has already DONE it for centuries..= . One good example are the visions of God in the Bible through the lips of th= e ancient psychic whom many call prophets, always antropomorphizing Him. When one tries to prove by reasoning an explanation of a non-personal God, = one is labeled atheist by those who have this antropomorphized view. The most popular vision of God in the globe is still this way. Krishtar ______________________________________________________________________ Andrew Smith wrote: I have run across several books that advocate that we, humanity, are in the= process of "creating God" in some way. Have any of you seen this anywhere= ? I found it in "The Urantia Book" where it talks about "The Supreme Being= " and also in Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny." (Both are availabl= e free on the net. I can furnish the URLs if necessary) I guess the theor= y is that as we collectively progress in an evolutionary way, we bind toget= her to create a "super Being" of some sort. Note that this is not the Morm= on doctrine where we each become Gods, but an evolutionary idea where we ar= e collectively "God". This sounds almost like "The Borg" of scifi fame. H= ave any of you heard of this or does anyone else advocate it? I'm fascinat= ed by this concept. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rajputks@hotmail.com Sat Dec 11 18:00:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 8647 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 02:00:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 02:00:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.53.83) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 02:00:16 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:00:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 210.214.134.36 by by19fd.bay19.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 01:59:17 GMT X-Originating-Email: [rajputks@hotmail.com] X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <1102787167.2208.46251.m12@yahoogroups.com> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Cc: mom_dad_hathi@yahoo.com, asbhand@satyam.net.in, dalmiasangita@yahoo.co.in, satishmehta4@epatra.com, kamal.singhrajput@gmail.com, Gajendrak@hotmail.com, kh_singh@yahoo.com, mahendra11_in@rediffmail.com Bcc: Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 07:29:17 +0530 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Dec 2004 02:00:01.0869 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A857FD0:01C4DFEE] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.4.53.83 From: "Kamal Singh Rajput" X-Originating-IP: [210.214.134.36] Subject: Projection of Astral Body - II X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206765605 PROJECTION OF ASTRAL BODY – II Encouraged by the first experiment on projection of astral body, I started reading books on astral-plain and astral body. Luckily, I found a teacher at Sagar (a town where I lived); who possessed hundreds of books on para-psychology, theosophy and spiritualism. I learned that every body possesses his or her astral body of exactly the same shape and form as his or her physical body. The astral body consists of finer form of matter. It is said that there is cell to cell coincidence between the physical and the astral. When we are awake, the astral body coincides with the astral body. When we go to sleep, generally the astral body comes out of the physical body but we remain asleep in the astral body. This is the reason why we do not notice its existence. Anyhow, if we become awake in the astral body and learn to control it; a wonderful New World is before us. We can go to distant places and meet different people on the physical as well as astral plain. The astral body remains connected with the physical body with a silvery card; which extends as the astral.body moves out of it. I followed another method to project my astral body. There was no fast. I laid down normally on my back while going to sleep. I concentrated on my heart and thought that my heart rate is slowing down. I tried to keep one hand up. This was to keep my self semi-conscious or half-awake. After a while, I observed a glowing white envelope covering my body just few centimeters above. It remained for few minutes and thereafter I went to sleep. Wonderful experience! The astral body was just separated from the physical. ...Kamal-S-Rajput... _________________________________________________________________ Pep up your screen! Kickstart your day! http://www.msn.co.in/Cinema/screensaver/ Get these vibrant screensavers! From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 18:25:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 80923 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.44) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 43902 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 22:48:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 22:48:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.114) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 22:48:11 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:48:10 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV10.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 22:47:05 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 16:47:06 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 16:47:07 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2004 22:48:10.0947 (UTC) FILETIME=[7D7A3130:01C4DFD3] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.114 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: A Poem and an Explanation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:08 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.44 Neo-Heraclitus Sententiae --- 28 Nov 2004 "The Red Sea is our blood" We are in death in life There is no "god" that mankind can "know" "Allah" is the richest conception of a deity The "conception of deity" is not the "conception of deity" Even "Allah" is not "Allah" We cannot "know" Alcohol is bad for mankind, just as is tobacco Coffee and tea is the drink of the Submitters There is no perfect religion just as there is no "god" The nearest thing to a "god" is DNA=20 We only know divinity microscopically, never macroscopically The "Red Sea" is DNA "Allah" is the aggregate of DNA Allah is our (i.e., all living entities=92) blood The "Qur=92an" is the most perfect scripture "The most perfect scripture" is not "the most perfect scripture" The "Mother Book" is DNA=20 Muhammad was indeed the last of the Prophets "Threats of hell" are for our heedance to be thankful "Hopes" of Paradise" are to show that we are of the thankful Lack of thankfulness is the greatest sin Denial of Allah alone is lack of thankfulness If we are not "Beneficent" and "Merciful" we are not thankful "Jihad of the nafs" is none other than thankfulness "Thankfulness" is not "thankfulness" The Beneficent and Merciful is not a bloody God Blood pulses in life Life is Allah, He the pulse of pulses He the Life of life When Al-Hallaj was crucified When his hands and feet were cut off Life still lived in him He told the crowd of those who thought they Submitted "Ana al-Haq" He knew that his lifeblood was not the blood of Allah He knew, too, that Allah was his lifeblood He whispered, "Oh Allah, if they knew what I know, They could never shed my blood" What would we shed our blood for? My tomcat sheds my blood profusely I love him still Love and blood purges our Nafs Lay not the "Qur'an aside, it is not bloody as the Salafies would have us b= elieve It is love, the love of Allah toward man And, yet Allah is so far and so close that we cannot find Him The Friend is far, but close, Is He not? "The Diamond Sutra" of Buddhism tells us That the truth is not the truth, because we cannot "pin down" the Truth And, yet it exists What we can "pin down" is not life It is the death of life --- Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali [pseudonym for Andrew W. Smith] N.B."How can this be? If these Bodhisattvas, Subhuti, should perceive eithe= r dharma or adharma, they would think of an ego, a separate entity, a soul = or a personality. Therefore the Tathagata has taught this saying with a hid= den meaning: 'Those who know that the teachings about dharma are like a raf= t, should renounce dharma and, even more, renounce adharma.'"=20 Buddha asked: "Do you think, Subhuti, that the Tathagata knows any dharma a= s the ultimate and perfect enlightenment? Has the Tathagata ever set forth = such a teaching?"=20 Subhuti reponded: "Not according to my understanding of the teachings of th= e Tathagata. Why? The dharma which the Tathagata fully knows and has set fo= rth can neither be thought nor formulated in words, for it is neither dharm= a nor adharma." --- From "The Diamond Sutra" Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 18:25:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24495 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.47) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n18.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49640 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 20:50:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 20:50:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.116) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 20:50:03 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:50:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV12.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 20:49:28 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:49:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:49:32 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2004 20:50:01.0292 (UTC) FILETIME=[FBB6B0C0:01C4DFC2] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.116 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: Harold Percival [excerpt] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:08 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.47 Religions as beliefs, systems and institutions are both good and bad. This depends on the people who practice them. When a religion is practiced to lead or to allow its devotees to develop reasoning and understanding and to grow into a higher and more enlightened state, it is good. It is bad, when by means of it people are kept in ignorance and darkness, and when vice, crime and cruelty flourish under it. Usually the beginning of a new religion is promising. It comes to meet a demand. It starts out of a decaying religion. It is usually born out of tumult, confusion, dissension and war. It attracts enthusiasts and the changeable crowd. It fails to school the mass of adherents to a higher life, and soon suffers from theology, institutionalism, officialism, hypocrisy, bigotry and corruption. So one religion after another appears, disappears, and reappears. The reason is twofold: the mass of re-existing doers whose religion it is get it because it exteriorizes their thoughts, and the actions of those who figure as its priests and officials reflect and embody the aims of the adherents. On the whole it is better that there should be even such a religion than none. It keeps the believers from doing worse than they do. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sat Dec 11 18:25:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 30893 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 02:25:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.49) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n20.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64330 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 02:14:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 02:14:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.73) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 02:14:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 9152 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Dec 2004 02:14:24 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=xa6+UPbY6CcHHV597lCrPsp7SeswhuhoQ5MuY5zw8Sm6uT+0j/JtLF1hMPLbsQhhGLUYZwxzyqvNMlk4NnoWFpCdgGv6HMqAUSUF2c/lIQvgT+wW2xC5/wzRFOvZP3BAQoPGmwemPMAngDQiPFubE9AS3jI9mCT7beU7O2zaY0A= ; Message-ID: <20041212021424.9150.qmail@web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:14:24 PST Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:14:24 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.73 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Projection of Astral Body - II X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.49 Dear Kamal You have enjoyed a wonderful experience. Theosophy teaches that man has se= ven bodies each corresponding to seven planes of existence. Therefore the = Astral Body can function on all these planes. The lower levels of the Astr= al, I am told, in not very pleasant place and is occupied by men (when in b= ody) of evil and criminal make up. Please be sure to read all you can abou= t the different planes on the astral so that you will be able to recognize = all forms and entities and keep safe. =20=20 Kamal Singh Rajput wrote: PROJECTION OF ASTRAL BODY =96 II Encouraged by the first experiment on projection of astral body,=20 I started reading books on astral-plain and astral body. Luckily, I found a= =20 teacher at Sagar (a town where I lived); who possessed hundreds of books on= =20 para-psychology, theosophy and spiritualism. I learned that every body possesses his or her astral body of exactly the=20 same shape and form as his or her physical body. The astral body consists o= f=20 finer form of matter. It is said that there is cell to cell coincidence=20 between the physical and the astral. When we are awake, the astral body=20 coincides with the astral body. When we go to sleep, generally the astral=20 body comes out of the physical body but we remain asleep in the astral body= .=20 This is the reason why we do not notice its existence. Anyhow, if we become= =20 awake in the astral body and learn to control it; a wonderful New World is= =20 before us. We can go to distant places and meet different people on the=20 physical as well as astral plain. The astral body remains connected with th= e=20 physical body with a silvery card; which extends as the astral.body moves=20 out of it. I followed another method to project my astral body. There was no=20 fast. I laid down normally on my back while going to sleep. I concentrated= =20 on my heart and thought that my heart rate is slowing down. I tried to keep= =20 one hand up. This was to keep my self semi-conscious or half-awake. After a= =20 while, I observed a glowing white envelope covering my body just few=20 centimeters above. It remained for few minutes and thereafter I went to=20 sleep. Wonderful experience! The astral body was just separated from the=20 physical. ...Kamal-S-Rajput... _________________________________________________________________ Pep up your screen! Kickstart your day!=20 http://www.msn.co.in/Cinema/screensaver/ Get these vibrant screensavers! Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! =96 What will yours do? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 18:25:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 30902 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 02:25:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.40) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 27484 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 00:19:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 00:19:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.116) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 00:19:01 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 16:19:00 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV12.phx.gbl with DAV; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:18:08 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "JOYCE SMITH" , "Juan Schoch" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:18:11 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:18:11 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Dec 2004 00:19:00.0653 (UTC) FILETIME=[2DC155D0:01C4DFE0] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.116 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: I've always wondered . . . . . X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.40 why do we get such inane redundant TV news in the USA? There is a world, a veritable universe, of news going on all the time, and yet all we hear about is the Peterson Trial and a few other tidbits. What's going on in India, Malaysia, Africa, etc., etc.? We've got the laziest news reporters, and I might say the most biased, in the world! The news in South America, Europe, China, Japan, and the Middle-East is full of stories of things of interest and human need, but we get the Peterson trial, Peterson trial, Peterson trial, ad nauseum. The news is obviously being carefully controlled due to Bush's war, but surely there are people doing something besides occupying Iraq. What's happening in Syria, Jordan, Turkey. etc.? How's the crop of opium in Afghanistan these days? What dictators (besides the Saudis) are we collaborating with these days to get what we want before we turn them into anti-American terrorists (like Bin Laden was in Russia's Afghanistan war)? Our American news is inane, redudant, and BORING. Get with it MEDIA! Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sat Dec 11 19:06:03 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7268 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 03:06:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 03:06:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90107.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.78) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 03:06:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 31208 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Dec 2004 03:06:02 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=T1/SoxPQC7ZxaEWECrhfIFeOsblKLLpcirZ+MLqUvO+yNxFLB7MU4dEPdlCZPDMAD3uXTO6wWjdsA7qn4rJo9FtvOJzyInALm7+bcNMCYswIKWsMS/M/1B5pEULsLTtbmHUfuOcGUDtqY6ykYLtC8ZTmFKI1NiiKOvJPK1s41JI= ; Message-ID: <20041212030602.31206.qmail@web90107.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90107.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:06:02 PST Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:06:02 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <001b01c4dfeb$681c24c0$0301010a@versus> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.78 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Krishtar We are different from "the Borg" because we have free will. To quote Theosophy The whole Cosmos is guided by an endless heirarchy. Every entity lives its= life in the sphere of a greater being. Every member of the Heirarchy is l= inked together. Every being or every entity is part of the Divine Plan. Our common origin in in Eternal matter - one infinite mind from which all i= deas emanate. =20 Universe is therefore the result of the manifestation or appearance of inte= lligent and semi intelligent forces. This inner government is fulfilling a= divine plan - evolution. (spiritual) All that occurs is the self realization of the Logos (The Absolute, or SAT)= revealing itself stage by stage and all forms of life and consciousness ar= e related to each other in a ladder of evolution. The higher on the evolut= ionary ladder the more of the Logos is revealed. And all follow a Divine Plan, the laws of which I can give you if you are i= nterested. Cass krishtar wrote: Hi Friend Though I haven=B4t read this book which I own in an electronic Spanish vers= ion, I have a closely view but not that we are invent-ING, build-ING up a G= od. I gess that amost totality of humankind has already DONE it for centuries..= . One good example are the visions of God in the Bible through the lips of th= e ancient psychic whom many call prophets, always antropomorphizing Him. When one tries to prove by reasoning an explanation of a non-personal God, = one is labeled atheist by those who have this antropomorphized view. The most popular vision of God in the globe is still this way. Krishtar ______________________________________________________________________ Andrew Smith wrote: I have run across several books that advocate that we, humanity, are in the= process of "creating God" in some way. Have any of you seen this anywhere?= I found it in "The Urantia Book" where it talks about "The Supreme Being" = and also in Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny." (Both are available f= ree on the net. I can furnish the URLs if necessary) I guess the theory is = that as we collectively progress in an evolutionary way, we bind together t= o create a "super Being" of some sort. Note that this is not the Mormon doc= trine where we each become Gods, but an evolutionary idea where we are coll= ectively "God". This sounds almost like "The Borg" of scifi fame. Have any = of you heard of this or does anyone else advocate it? I'm fascinated by thi= s concept. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! =96 Get yours free!=20=20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sat Dec 11 19:30:31 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6764 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 03:30:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 03:30:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.72) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 03:30:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 3388 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Dec 2004 03:30:30 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=iKvd6WmA10mCN5xnjb2C2gWIYhFBNlt2rITO7VFzdjN4qY2k239Xn4DPA/hkVhmTY/rB3qiMBPkS1YJ9ofjlD4mE77UCdFoCUI690404nClPCP/Rry3s0sVkFFrU8+gX+wPoMtj2QVU4a8drv8dllPScsl5qQzX3XVPcu47fOqA= ; Message-ID: <20041212033030.3386.qmail@web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:30:30 PST Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:30:30 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.72 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World A Poem and an Explanation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Said as a true scientific existensialist. If life is so meaningless why no= t eat drink and be merry Andrew Smith wrote: Neo-Heraclitus Sententiae --- 28 Nov 2004 "The Red Sea is our blood" We are in death in life There is no "god" that mankind can "know" "Allah" is the richest conception of a deity The "conception of deity" is not the "conception of deity" Even "Allah" is not "Allah" We cannot "know" Alcohol is bad for mankind, just as is tobacco Coffee and tea is the drink of the Submitters There is no perfect religion just as there is no "god" The nearest thing to a "god" is DNA=20 We only know divinity microscopically, never macroscopically The "Red Sea" is DNA "Allah" is the aggregate of DNA Allah is our (i.e., all living entities=92) blood The "Qur=92an" is the most perfect scripture "The most perfect scripture" is not "the most perfect scripture" The "Mother Book" is DNA=20 Muhammad was indeed the last of the Prophets "Threats of hell" are for our heedance to be thankful "Hopes" of Paradise" are to show that we are of the thankful Lack of thankfulness is the greatest sin Denial of Allah alone is lack of thankfulness If we are not "Beneficent" and "Merciful" we are not thankful "Jihad of the nafs" is none other than thankfulness "Thankfulness" is not "thankfulness" The Beneficent and Merciful is not a bloody God Blood pulses in life Life is Allah, He the pulse of pulses He the Life of life When Al-Hallaj was crucified When his hands and feet were cut off Life still lived in him He told the crowd of those who thought they Submitted "Ana al-Haq" He knew that his lifeblood was not the blood of Allah He knew, too, that Allah was his lifeblood He whispered, "Oh Allah, if they knew what I know, They could never shed my blood" What would we shed our blood for? My tomcat sheds my blood profusely I love him still Love and blood purges our Nafs Lay not the "Qur'an aside, it is not bloody as the Salafies would have us b= elieve It is love, the love of Allah toward man And, yet Allah is so far and so close that we cannot find Him The Friend is far, but close, Is He not? "The Diamond Sutra" of Buddhism tells us That the truth is not the truth, because we cannot "pin down" the Truth And, yet it exists What we can "pin down" is not life It is the death of life --- Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali [pseudonym for Andrew W. Smith] N.B."How can this be? If these Bodhisattvas, Subhuti, should perceive eithe= r dharma or adharma, they would think of an ego, a separate entity, a soul = or a personality. Therefore the Tathagata has taught this saying with a hid= den meaning: 'Those who know that the teachings about dharma are like a raf= t, should renounce dharma and, even more, renounce adharma.'"=20 Buddha asked: "Do you think, Subhuti, that the Tathagata knows any dharma a= s the ultimate and perfect enlightenment? Has the Tathagata ever set forth = such a teaching?"=20 Subhuti reponded: "Not according to my understanding of the teachings of th= e Tathagata. Why? The dharma which the Tathagata fully knows and has set fo= rth can neither be thought nor formulated in words, for it is neither dharm= a nor adharma." --- From "The Diamond Sutra" Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 20:26:01 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97299 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 04:26:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 04:26:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.16) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 04:26:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n11.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 04:26:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.180] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 04:26:00 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 04:26:00 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041212033030.3386.qmail@web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 575 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.16 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Re: Theos-World A Poem and an Explanation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 > Said as a true scientific existensialist. If life is so meaningless why not eat drink and be merry > Cass, look it over again and then read the quote from "The Diamond Sutra" below. All it says, in the words of Alfred Korzybski, is "the map is not the territory." Once we learn this,we can upset the poem and the piece of Suta below it. Words can never replace reaities, and that is all I am trying to get across. This is not, for the record, "existentialism," but Buddhist doctrine with an Islamic twist. I'm sorry you didn't understand or like it. Andrew From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 12 01:42:12 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78255 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 09:42:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 09:42:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.73) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 09:42:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 65467 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Dec 2004 09:42:03 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=JbDjDIRfVeejz8OuW/uTE6TAJBl5BG2AHU0cHHnUntEXFqe6dHyEafia0XrYfRWJWthihGsBz85I6KRrLK+SXqkQKLLq3h45Aa9lXWfXhP5p8IdmHexLKG9I+I5Tx9giH1orPxxApgCOK/OI81J5ok3CR9E4/3Yxvc3ee+Qdl34= ; Message-ID: <20041212094203.65465.qmail@web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 01:42:03 PST Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 01:42:03 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.73 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World A Poem and an Explanation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cass, look it over again and then read the quote from "The Diamond Sutra" below. All it says, in the words of Alfred Korzybski, is "the map is not the territory." Once we learn this,we can upset the poem and the piece of Suta below it. Words can never replace reaities, and that is all I am trying to get across. This is not, for the record, "existentialism," but Buddhist doctrine with an Islamic twist. I'm sorry you didn't understand or like it. Andrew Andrew, The quote from the Diamond Sutra didnt come through. Don't understand the blending of Buddhism and Islam, one is love all, and the other is an eye for an eye. Cass "Andrew W. Smith" wrote: > Said as a true scientific existensialist. If life is so meaningless why not eat drink and be merry > Cass, look it over again and then read the quote from "The Diamond Sutra" below. All it says, in the words of Alfred Korzybski, is "the map is not the territory." Once we learn this,we can upset the poem and the piece of Suta below it. Words can never replace reaities, and that is all I am trying to get across. This is not, for the record, "existentialism," but Buddhist doctrine with an Islamic twist. I'm sorry you didn't understand or like it. Andrew Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From burgem@essex1.com Sun Dec 12 08:49:49 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: burgem@essex1.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14857 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 16:49:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 16:49:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.essex1.com) (208.1.86.67) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 16:49:48 -0000 Received: from mindy ([207.43.74.222]) by smtp.essex1.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id iBCGex6d032102 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 10:41:09 -0600 To: Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 10:48:20 -0600 Message-ID: <04af01c4e06a$671410e0$5dd1a43f@mindy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <1102867053.435.18280.m12@yahoogroups.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 208.1.86.67 From: "Mindy" Subject: RE: Creating God X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=382579 X-Yahoo-Profile: mindy61081 Hi Andrew, The Molecular Relationship by JJ Dewey is a book that fully explains this fascinating concept. You can read it free at http://www.thenewagesite.com/jjdewey/molecular/chapter1.php Love to hear your thoughts on it if you read it! :) Mindy Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:28:58 -0600 From: "Andrew Smith" Subject: Creating "God" I have run across several books that advocate that we, humanity, are in the process of "creating God" in some way. Have any of you seen this anywhere? I found it in "The Urantia Book" where it talks about "The Supreme Being" and also in Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny." (Both are available free on the net. I can furnish the URLs if necessary) I guess the theory is that as we collectively progress in an evolutionary way, we bind together to create a "super Being" of some sort. Note that this is not the Mormon doctrine where we each become Gods, but an evolutionary idea where we are collectively "God". This sounds almost like "The Borg" of scifi fame. Have any of you heard of this or does anyone else advocate it? I'm fascinated by this concept. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" From aupanishad@msn.com Sun Dec 12 09:05:38 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73539 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 17:05:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 17:05:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.44) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 17:05:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 17:05:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 17:04:39 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:04:09 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <04af01c4e06a$671410e0$5dd1a43f@mindy> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1628 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.44 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Re: Creating God X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Mindy" wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > The Molecular Relationship by JJ Dewey is a book that fully explains > this fascinating concept. You can read it free at > http://www.thenewagesite.com/jjdewey/molecular/chapter1.php > > Love to hear your thoughts on it if you read it! :) > > Mindy > > > Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:28:58 -0600 > From: "Andrew Smith" > Subject: Creating "God" > > > I have run across several books that advocate that we, humanity, are in > the process of "creating God" in some way. Have any of you seen this > anywhere? I found it in "The Urantia Book" where it talks about "The > Supreme Being" and also in Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny." > (Both are available free on the net. I can furnish the URLs if > necessary) I guess the theory is that as we collectively progress in an > evolutionary way, we bind together to create a "super Being" of some > sort. Note that this is not the Mormon doctrine where we each become > Gods, but an evolutionary idea where we are collectively "God". This > sounds almost like "The Borg" of scifi fame. Have any of you heard of > this or does anyone else advocate it? I'm fascinated by this concept. > > > Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali > "May you live in interesting times!" I read J.J. Dewey, but I'm not impressed. Nothing, not even science, "fully explains" the what, why, when, and where of these matters. He's just another New Age "genius" (good book writer) who has evidentally converted his ideas into some kind of commune.Thanks for the reference, though. Andrew From aupanishad@msn.com Sun Dec 12 09:26:33 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 47079 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 17:26:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 17:26:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 17:26:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 17:26:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.178] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 17:26:30 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:26:05 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1481 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.38 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: HPB's "Spirit" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 One thing Theosophists need badly today is HPB's and HSO's spirit of debunking the complete idiocy of a lot of New Age ideas. They were very successful in investigating and exposing the "spirit rappings" and other table-tipping and such stuff, which led them to the reality of Theosophy. Today we have "channellers" coming out our "ying-yang" and new "revelations" spring up faster than we can even read them. Weiser Books and Quest and a few others are pretty good at keeping to reality, but there are more "Pleidian channellers" spinging up than you can count. Erica has been excellent at debunking, or graciously rejecting, a lot of this stuff, but we need to keep "on our toes" individually as well. I mentioned Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny" because of one idea in it, not to endorse the book---which I don't. The same applies to "The Urantia Book" and "Oahspe" and hundreds of others. The truth is not "out there" (TV), it is in us. We need to seek the divine in ourselves as HPB taught. I'm as fascinated with the universe as anyone, but what we see so far is a plethora of fiery anamolies that we have yet to make sense of scientifically. HPB's "Secret Doctrine" has come the closest to making sense of it, and that's no doubt why Einstein was interested in the book. Theosophists! Open your eyes and stop contemplating your navels and trying to find your "astral bodies"! As HPB said: "The time for thinkers has come." Andrew From aupanishad@msn.com Sun Dec 12 09:44:18 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67771 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 17:44:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 17:44:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.49) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 17:44:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n20.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 17:44:16 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.174] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 17:44:16 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:44:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1355 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.49 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Cass X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Andrew, The quote from the Diamond Sutra didnt come through. Don't understand the blending of Buddhism and Islam, one is love all, and the other is an eye for an eye. Cass Try seeing with your exoteric eyes and find out what I (and the Buddha, and Mansur Al-Hallaj)am trying to say with our esoteric eyes. It's not an exoteric "religion of love" against a "religion of hate." It's not "religious" at all! It's a unity of the spirit that I am trying to portray, something that can be felt but not completely understood. Actually, it was not a poem at all: it was more of a parable. Hallaj understood "Ana al Haq" ("I am the truth") completely like Mahakassapa did when Buddha held up the flower and Zen was born. Hallaj on the cross was the "rose" and Buddha's "flower" was the crucifixion of the spirit on matter, as in Rosicrucian doctrine. Ananada understood the buddha when he said, in Korzybski's words, "The map is not the territory." Our words fail us when spiritual realities overcome us. Hallaj bled and died and Buddha's flower died, but their death's were seed, just as the early Christians used to say that "the blood of the martyrs is the seed of Christianity." Don't read to see how two exoteric religions contradict; read to see how two esoteric spirits arrived at the same truth by different means. Andrew From aupanishad@msn.com Sun Dec 12 10:21:05 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62949 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 18:21:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 18:21:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.111) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 18:21:04 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 10:21:04 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV7.phx.gbl with DAV; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 18:20:08 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "JOYCE SMITH" , "Juan Schoch" Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 12:20:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 12:20:13 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Dec 2004 18:21:04.0051 (UTC) FILETIME=[571DB030:01C4E077] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.111 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: I Know the Answer X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know the answer, but I'm going to ask the question anyway: Why is the religion of "the Beneficent and the Merciful" so goddamned bloody? And the religion of the "Prince of Peace" so goddamned warlike? And why do whorehouses and general rape grow up around all the military camps no matter how "just" their cause? Andrew William Smith, F.T.S., M.A. Qalandar: Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you, Inshallah, live in interesting times!" La iliha il-Allah!Anna Muhammadan rasul Allah! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Sun Dec 12 10:34:30 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63275 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 18:34:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 18:34:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.47) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 18:34:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n18.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 18:34:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.175] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 18:34:29 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 18:34:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1117 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.47 From: "prmoliveira" X-Originating-IP: 150.101.201.135 Subject: Re: Hodgson Report X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617 X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "lalaya7" wrote: > I have never found the entire Hogsdons Report in the internet. > Maybe you can find Vernom Harrison's book, correctin Hogsdon. I > guess the report is attached to the book > and I am also glad to tell you that Vernom Harrison's book will be > publsihed in Portuguese next year. Harrison's book does not contain the full text of the 1885 "Hodgson Report". It contains an examination of it, a further study of it, replies to criticism, opinion, affidavit and information about the author (Harrison). Glad to know it will be published in Portuguese. I understand there was a storm of attacks on HPB and the TS in Brazil some years ago when Peter Washington's "Madame Blavatsky's Baboon"'s Portuguese edition was published. Some evangelical churches there are in the habit of attacking and denigrating HPB and Theosophy as "satanic". Letters were written by members of the TS to main newspapers in the country defending HPB, but only a few were published. I wonder if such periodical attacks are common in other countries too. Pedro From aupanishad@msn.com Sun Dec 12 10:47:41 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 96056 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 18:47:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 18:47:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.46) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 18:47:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n17.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 18:47:26 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.176] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 18:47:26 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 18:47:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041212030602.31206.qmail@web90107.mail.scd.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 972 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.46 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > Dear Krishtar > We are different from "the Borg" because we have free will. > To quote Theosophy > The whole Cosmos is guided by an endless heirarchy. Every entity lives its life in the sphere of a greater being. Every member of the Heirarchy is linked together. Every being or every entity is part of the Divine Plan. > Our common origin in in Eternal matter - one infinite mind from which all ideas emanate. Cass: "Dear Krishtar > "We are different from "the Borg" because we have free will." The remainder of your message is a perfect description of what "The borg" is like! We have, as HPB said, free will because "demon est Deus inversus" and that "nature unaided fails." There is a Divine Plan, but we are not "linked together" like the Borg! Re-read what you wrote and then compare it to "The borg." Maybe HPB would be better for setting up our ("Secret")doctrine. Andrew From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Sun Dec 12 11:20:31 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 19802 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 19:20:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 19:20:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.158) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 19:20:30 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [201.2.204.102]) by smtp2.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A033449 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:20:27 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.5.0]); Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:18:55 -0200 Message-ID: <002501c4e07f$6c520700$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041212030602.31206.qmail@web90107.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:18:55 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.158 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Cass Are you from Portugal or Brasil? 1.First of all, I apologise for my ignorance of the expression "the borg". = What is it? 2. The quote you included I am aware of too, I agree with it, mine was just= a comment on how things are nowadays, I know that all that is happening is= but part of the divine plan but a cold reading of it sometimes makes me fe= el worried about the destiny of mankind=B4s spirituality in this life time = of mine!! Many manvantaras will pass though for Man notice the divine insid= e as a whole. Krishtar BR ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 1:06 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" Dear Krishtar We are different from "the Borg" because we have free will. To quote Theosophy The whole Cosmos is guided by an endless heirarchy. Every entity lives i= ts life in the sphere of a greater being. Every member of the Heirarchy is= linked together. Every being or every entity is part of the Divine Plan. Our common origin in in Eternal matter - one infinite mind from which all= ideas emanate. =20=20=20 Universe is therefore the result of the manifestation or appearance of in= telligent and semi intelligent forces. This inner government is fulfilling= a divine plan - evolution. (spiritual) All that occurs is the self realization of the Logos (The Absolute, or SA= T) revealing itself stage by stage and all forms of life and consciousness = are related to each other in a ladder of evolution. The higher on the evol= utionary ladder the more of the Logos is revealed. And all follow a Divine Plan, the laws of which I can give you if you are= interested. Cass krishtar wrote: Hi Friend Though I haven=B4t read this book which I own in an electronic Spanish ve= rsion, I have a closely view but not that we are invent-ING, build-ING up a= God. I gess that amost totality of humankind has already DONE it for centuries= ... One good example are the visions of God in the Bible through the lips of = the ancient psychic whom many call prophets, always antropomorphizing Him. When one tries to prove by reasoning an explanation of a non-personal God= , one is labeled atheist by those who have this antropomorphized view. The most popular vision of God in the globe is still this way. Krishtar ______________________________________________________________________ Andrew Smith wrote: I have run across several books that advocate that we, humanity, are in t= he process of "creating God" in some way. Have any of you seen this anywher= e? I found it in "The Urantia Book" where it talks about "The Supreme Being= " and also in Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny." (Both are available= free on the net. I can furnish the URLs if necessary) I guess the theory i= s that as we collectively progress in an evolutionary way, we bind together= to create a "super Being" of some sort. Note that this is not the Mormon d= octrine where we each become Gods, but an evolutionary idea where we are co= llectively "God". This sounds almost like "The Borg" of scifi fame. Have an= y of you heard of this or does anyone else advocate it? I'm fascinated by t= his concept. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!=20=20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Dec 12 13:04:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75147 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 21:04:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 21:04:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 21:04:53 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cdatg-0004Ao-D4 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:04:52 -0500 Message-ID: <41BCB27E.4020804@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:05:02 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba053350a6fafc2df1395aa39bda8ad0a985e0aeacdf564a64350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.61 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Intro X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 aupanishad2300 wrote: > I use the name Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali because I once joined the religion > of Islam, and although I quit practicing it after the 1993 WTC > bombings, I still love it and try to live its spirit of love and > peace which is how I understand submission to Allah. I know quite a few Islamic people who no more identify themselves with the bombers of the World Trade Center than most Christians do with the Ku Klux Klan. Daniel Pipes wrote an excellent article about how he would define "moderate Islam", and it applies to all my friends: http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCommentary.asp?Page=%5CCommentary%5Carchive%5C200311%5CCOM20031125a.html Bart From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Dec 12 13:31:55 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 45472 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 21:31:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 21:31:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40912.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.209) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 21:31:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 73086 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Dec 2004 21:31:53 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=dGb0TNCK0Ysgn9ZDpV4FLTpM82m/b1huk0fs71DOXOb2j1NXaeFuuXxZW8C0IUFJTkmgij2+a0raVPeDutRtwPesoQK0cRaPKeMxLI21ac6bQANAPwn3kWU+/FDrQZNFRL4uMkLK/gNV9dgDuD6Apto0v3gdu57izS6toexR2WE= ; Message-ID: <20041212213153.73084.qmail@web40912.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40912.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 13:31:53 PST Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 13:31:53 -0800 (PST) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.78.209 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: William Q. Judge on His Communication with the Dead H.P. Blavatsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William Q. Judge on His Communication with the Dead H.P. Blavatsky See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokesjudge1495.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER http://blavatskyarchives.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 12 16:16:32 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 84084 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 00:16:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 00:16:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.80) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 00:16:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 63068 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Dec 2004 00:16:29 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=skgt5RTYdmvaa1CpCFfq6ViKrQOBCEohlnLTHaAnw7PiZHcu5D4EsHMp+1Sn1yOEg2l1Ow3p8rtuHmym4Hm5t4jKK8fvpv2w8waKs2LR0FyedHr0ZcfUfKWOtEdQis6tc/PHo23n4to3FbROV6IeYVzEJ66+h2FdXIOBjq1CtIA= ; Message-ID: <20041213001629.63066.qmail@web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:16:29 PST Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:16:29 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.80 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Andrew At an exoteric level, the Borg and the SD Heirarchy would appear to be the = same. But at an esoteric level, they are worlds apart. One takes from othe= rs, and makes of them (non Borgs)automaton's and slaves, while maintaining = and expanding the sum total of the universal knowledge, they have stolen fr= om others. Do the Borg share their knowledge with others in the Universe. = Only the Borg benefit. It is a heirarchy of master/slave. =20 Unlike the Borg, the SD Heirarchy postulates all men as having choices and = free will. We can choose to be a borg or not to be a borg. The Borgs are u= tilitarian in that they do what is best for the greatest good of all. (The = Borgs that is). They assimilate others who are not willing to be assimilate= d. The Heirarchy of the SD is an evolution of mind and spirit from man to d= ivinity.=20 =20 Cass "Andrew W. Smith" wrote: --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > Dear Krishtar > We are different from "the Borg" because we have free will. > To quote Theosophy > The whole Cosmos is guided by an endless heirarchy. Every entity=20 lives its life in the sphere of a greater being. Every member of the=20 Heirarchy is linked together. Every being or every entity is part of=20 the Divine Plan. > Our common origin in in Eternal matter - one infinite mind from=20 which all ideas emanate. Cass: "Dear Krishtar > "We are different from "the Borg" because we have free will." The remainder of your message is a perfect description of what "The=20 borg" is like! We have, as HPB said, free will because "demon est=20 Deus inversus" and that "nature unaided fails." There is a Divine=20 Plan, but we are not "linked together" like the Borg! Re-read what=20 you wrote and then compare it to "The borg." Maybe HPB would be=20 better for setting up our ("Secret")doctrine. Andrew Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! =96 What will yours do? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 12 16:31:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63971 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 00:31:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 00:31:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.81) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 00:31:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 63728 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Dec 2004 00:31:35 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=KHnSFBbTK0fz0m46GbE+Gzrm1+FwV3PPzXxkBw0ihj3stDM5/O0e+pZEA8jqvuqj6I3z42NGyl7T39cZo5hSBcIBfHZMeHDR5+ClojErH2ygPq5wJX2mwoXOovCtzdbI3m9dSGPb4aAPwa0Uj3BsWARGJl5jc3ENmZQpLCyzBQo= ; Message-ID: <20041213003135.63726.qmail@web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:31:35 PST Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:31:35 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <002501c4e07f$6c520700$0301010a@versus> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.81 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Krishtar I am of irish/english stock. My ex is Portuguese from Lisbon.=20=20 The Borg are one of many species featured in Star Trek - Deep Space Nine. For over 2000 years most religions have pushed a "personal god" to keep the= devotees in fear of punishment. At the core of every great religion is th= e inner that was brought by the Founder, but most religions have totally lo= st the inner now, and even claim their God is more powerful than other peop= le's God, attrocities are committed in God's name, as a political and moral= justification for murder. Things are changing though, over half the world's population now holds a ph= ilosophy of Karma and Reincarnation and a divine source (non personal) that= we all share. Things will change quickly, look how far we have come in th= e last 200 years.=20=20 For most people, it is very scary to let go of the KNOWN (the personal god = belief) to grab a hold of THE UNKNOWN (a god within us). And through fear t= hey rattle the tambourine that defends their God and their belief system, l= abelling anyone outside of it, athiest or worse. Keep the faith and keep = searching for answers. Cass krishtar wrote: Hi Cass Are you from Portugal or Brasil? 1.First of all, I apologise for my ignorance of the expression "the borg". = What is it? 2. The quote you included I am aware of too, I agree with it, mine was just= a comment on how things are nowadays, I know that all that is happening is= but part of the divine plan but a cold reading of it sometimes makes me fe= el worried about the destiny of mankind=B4s spirituality in this life time = of mine!! Many manvantaras will pass though for Man notice the divine insid= e as a whole. Krishtar BR ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 1:06 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" Dear Krishtar We are different from "the Borg" because we have free will. To quote Theosophy The whole Cosmos is guided by an endless heirarchy. Every entity lives its = life in the sphere of a greater being. Every member of the Heirarchy is lin= ked together. Every being or every entity is part of the Divine Plan. Our common origin in in Eternal matter - one infinite mind from which all i= deas emanate. Universe is therefore the result of the manifestation or appearance of inte= lligent and semi intelligent forces. This inner government is fulfilling a = divine plan - evolution. (spiritual) All that occurs is the self realization of the Logos (The Absolute, or SAT)= revealing itself stage by stage and all forms of life and consciousness ar= e related to each other in a ladder of evolution. The higher on the evoluti= onary ladder the more of the Logos is revealed. And all follow a Divine Plan, the laws of which I can give you if you are i= nterested. Cass krishtar wrote: Hi Friend Though I haven=B4t read this book which I own in an electronic Spanish vers= ion, I have a closely view but not that we are invent-ING, build-ING up a G= od. I gess that amost totality of humankind has already DONE it for centuries..= . One good example are the visions of God in the Bible through the lips of th= e ancient psychic whom many call prophets, always antropomorphizing Him. When one tries to prove by reasoning an explanation of a non-personal God, = one is labeled atheist by those who have this antropomorphized view. The most popular vision of God in the globe is still this way. Krishtar ______________________________________________________________________ Andrew Smith wrote: I have run across several books that advocate that we, humanity, are in the= process of "creating God" in some way. Have any of you seen this anywhere?= I found it in "The Urantia Book" where it talks about "The Supreme Being" = and also in Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny." (Both are available f= ree on the net. I can furnish the URLs if necessary) I guess the theory is = that as we collectively progress in an evolutionary way, we bind together t= o create a "super Being" of some sort. Note that this is not the Mormon doc= trine where we each become Gods, but an evolutionary idea where we are coll= ectively "God". This sounds almost like "The Borg" of scifi fame. Have any = of you heard of this or does anyone else advocate it? I'm fascinated by thi= s concept. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page =96 Try My Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 12 16:52:57 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31788 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 00:52:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 00:52:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.73) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 00:52:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 94494 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Dec 2004 00:52:56 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Q7FLmzQvYAUZvB4pZeS0Hf4Uig922+DKpFr8Xt+Rl9FmwjOalGp9Ti2mvldS4eek1zsc3GN2CgFj8ymkY0lczVccUiRANzdi6cmwnByl71EJsQ0NwYtpkFjRjtBJ3ZITzVmNKr/Foaq5gWugNaCofC/oBSju6xsorARk2qLr6B4= ; Message-ID: <20041213005256.94492.qmail@web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:52:56 PST Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:52:56 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <41BCB27E.4020804@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.73 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Intro X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Judge then a religion by its noblest,and not by its worst, and then we shall learn to love each other as brothers, and not hate each other as bigots and as fanatics. Bart Lidofsky wrote: aupanishad2300 wrote: > I use the name Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali because I once joined the religion > of Islam, and although I quit practicing it after the 1993 WTC > bombings, I still love it and try to live its spirit of love and > peace which is how I understand submission to Allah. I know quite a few Islamic people who no more identify themselves with the bombers of the World Trade Center than most Christians do with the Ku Klux Klan. Daniel Pipes wrote an excellent article about how he would define "moderate Islam", and it applies to all my friends: http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCommentary.asp?Page=%5CCommentary%5Carchive%5C200311%5CCOM20031125a.html Bart Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Sun Dec 12 16:57:50 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 42847 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 00:57:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 00:57:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 00:57:48 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [201.2.204.102]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5423B345A for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:57:44 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.5.0]); Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:56:12 -0200 Message-ID: <002001c4e0ae$8a6c4820$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041213003135.63726.qmail@web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:56:12 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" - Cass Silva X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cass Thanks for your really very good e-mail and explanations... Another pollemics: Don=B4t you think that all this "noise" about the Da Vinci code and the gre= at amount of books and controversies about the life of Jesus has a common g= round and all this subtle "movement" is having an occult impulse? Suddenly lots of information on occult societies, hidden Jesus=B4 life, all= is being spread in every corner , isn=B4t it a "push' from the Masters? People are starting to look at Christendom with much suspicion, and the hid= den secrets of many mystical orgs will surely find open minded and influent= people to gradually change this state of things, at least more than in the= past. Centuries ago a book such as Dan Brown=B4s would of course go to the fire w= ith the author.... I find very healthy people questioning, more and more often and in all nati= ons, inquiring about God and His misteries. Bible itself is a book to put fear in people, because fear can control us. People must learn again to think with freedom. Fear of hell, fear of damnation... and the more people get to know other go= spels that were simply discarded, is very interesting... Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 10:31 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" Dear Krishtar I am of irish/english stock. My ex is Portuguese from Lisbon.=20=20 The Borg are one of many species featured in Star Trek - Deep Space Nine. For over 2000 years most religions have pushed a "personal god" to keep t= he devotees in fear of punishment. At the core of every great religion is = the inner that was brought by the Founder, but most religions have totally = lost the inner now, and even claim their God is more powerful than other pe= ople's God, attrocities are committed in God's name, as a political and mor= al justification for murder. Things are changing though, over half the world's population now holds a = philosophy of Karma and Reincarnation and a divine source (non personal) th= at we all share. Things will change quickly, look how far we have come in = the last 200 years.=20=20 For most people, it is very scary to let go of the KNOWN (the personal go= d belief) to grab a hold of THE UNKNOWN (a god within us). And through fear= they rattle the tambourine that defends their God and their belief system,= labelling anyone outside of it, athiest or worse. Keep the faith and kee= p searching for answers. Cass krishtar wrote: Hi Cass Are you from Portugal or Brasil? 1.First of all, I apologise for my ignorance of the expression "the borg"= . What is it? 2. The quote you included I am aware of too, I agree with it, mine was ju= st a comment on how things are nowadays, I know that all that is happening = is but part of the divine plan but a cold reading of it sometimes makes me = feel worried about the destiny of mankind=B4s spirituality in this life tim= e of mine!! Many manvantaras will pass though for Man notice the divine ins= ide as a whole. Krishtar BR ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 1:06 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" Dear Krishtar We are different from "the Borg" because we have free will. To quote Theosophy The whole Cosmos is guided by an endless heirarchy. Every entity lives it= s life in the sphere of a greater being. Every member of the Heirarchy is l= inked together. Every being or every entity is part of the Divine Plan. Our common origin in in Eternal matter - one infinite mind from which all= ideas emanate. Universe is therefore the result of the manifestation or appearance of in= telligent and semi intelligent forces. This inner government is fulfilling = a divine plan - evolution. (spiritual) All that occurs is the self realization of the Logos (The Absolute, or SA= T) revealing itself stage by stage and all forms of life and consciousness = are related to each other in a ladder of evolution. The higher on the evolu= tionary ladder the more of the Logos is revealed. And all follow a Divine Plan, the laws of which I can give you if you are= interested. Cass krishtar wrote: Hi Friend Though I haven=B4t read this book which I own in an electronic Spanish ve= rsion, I have a closely view but not that we are invent-ING, build-ING up a= God. I gess that amost totality of humankind has already DONE it for centuries= ... One good example are the visions of God in the Bible through the lips of = the ancient psychic whom many call prophets, always antropomorphizing Him. When one tries to prove by reasoning an explanation of a non-personal God= , one is labeled atheist by those who have this antropomorphized view. The most popular vision of God in the globe is still this way. Krishtar ______________________________________________________________________ Andrew Smith wrote: I have run across several books that advocate that we, humanity, are in t= he process of "creating God" in some way. Have any of you seen this anywher= e? I found it in "The Urantia Book" where it talks about "The Supreme Being= " and also in Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny." (Both are available= free on the net. I can furnish the URLs if necessary) I guess the theory i= s that as we collectively progress in an evolutionary way, we bind together= to create a "super Being" of some sort. Note that this is not the Mormon d= octrine where we each become Gods, but an evolutionary idea where we are co= llectively "God". This sounds almost like "The Borg" of scifi fame. Have an= y of you heard of this or does anyone else advocate it? I'm fascinated by t= his concept. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page - Try My Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 12 17:23:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40612 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 01:23:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 01:23:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.81) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 01:23:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 71016 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Dec 2004 01:23:50 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=jdHgU5q/sAizX9LoO5BeOb4WyKJ3CSx6Gca0iEqgSMvywX92vf6SuqPcNvjEqyRSMLJOwIER2uRGEHPNyX2mi+sBTPpCF5PUWCa4Mcf0nB8djVXvj2fdqVXyOVscR+GIJf1wT2GsVKWzP/DpiPZI5mwMG20j7WhZEJTNR2mkt7I= ; Message-ID: <20041213012350.71014.qmail@web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:23:50 PST Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:23:50 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <002001c4e0ae$8a6c4820$0301010a@versus> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.81 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" - Cass Silva X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Krishtar Now we are in the age of Aquarius, it is a time of CHANGE, and of self exam= ination. Jesus came in the age of Pisces to teach men to love each other, = now we are at a new stage of evolution, to examine all our inherited cultur= al and religious beliefs and to open our minds to other possibilities. =20 Unfortunately I haven't read the Da Vinci code but will go on line to see w= hat the author has to say. He is probably repeating what HPB and other The= osophists have been saying for 100 years, but before I comment I must read = what he is saying. =20 This new age will not only shake away the cobwebs from Christendom, but als= o Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and all past great religions. For 2000 years w= e have learnt only the exoteric side of these religions, now it is time to = explore the esoteric side. The noble truth at the core of each great relig= ion. Our mentality has evolved to the point that we can no longer accept c= ertain"truths" based on "faith". Logic has to be applied to any belief sys= tem if it worthy of calling itself the TRUTH. THE WORD. There is no such = thing, I believe, as the True Religion, there are many paths to the top of = the mountain. =20 I am sure you are right when you say higher forces are involved in producin= g these changes, "The Key to Theosophy" says that the future state and karm= ic destiny of man depends on whether Manas (Mind) gravitates more downward = to Kama (passions/desires) or upwards to Buddhi (the spiritual)." If we con= tinue to aspire to the good we will be drawn towards Buddhi, through selfis= h choices are are drawn to Kama. The choice is ours. Does it really matter if Jesus, wasn't as the Christians, say the Son of Go= d, but a highly evolved man with a compassion and love for his brother soul= s, who he said about, you are all sons of god. =20 =20 Cass krishtar wrote: Cass Thanks for your really very good e-mail and explanations... Another pollemics: Don=B4t you think that all this "noise" about the Da Vinci code and the gre= at amount of books and controversies about the life of Jesus has a common g= round and all this subtle "movement" is having an occult impulse? Suddenly lots of information on occult societies, hidden Jesus=B4 life, all= is being spread in every corner , isn=B4t it a "push' from the Masters? People are starting to look at Christendom with much suspicion, and the hid= den secrets of many mystical orgs will surely find open minded and influent= people to gradually change this state of things, at least more than in the= past. Centuries ago a book such as Dan Brown=B4s would of course go to the fire w= ith the author.... I find very healthy people questioning, more and more often and in all nati= ons, inquiring about God and His misteries. Bible itself is a book to put fear in people, because fear can control us. People must learn again to think with freedom. Fear of hell, fear of damnation... and the more people get to know other go= spels that were simply discarded, is very interesting... Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 10:31 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" Dear Krishtar I am of irish/english stock. My ex is Portuguese from Lisbon.=20 The Borg are one of many species featured in Star Trek - Deep Space Nine. For over 2000 years most religions have pushed a "personal god" to keep the= devotees in fear of punishment. At the core of every great religion is the= inner that was brought by the Founder, but most religions have totally los= t the inner now, and even claim their God is more powerful than other peopl= e's God, attrocities are committed in God's name, as a political and moral = justification for murder. Things are changing though, over half the world's population now holds a ph= ilosophy of Karma and Reincarnation and a divine source (non personal) that= we all share. Things will change quickly, look how far we have come in the= last 200 years.=20 For most people, it is very scary to let go of the KNOWN (the personal god = belief) to grab a hold of THE UNKNOWN (a god within us). And through fear t= hey rattle the tambourine that defends their God and their belief system, l= abelling anyone outside of it, athiest or worse. Keep the faith and keep se= arching for answers. Cass krishtar wrote: Hi Cass Are you from Portugal or Brasil? 1.First of all, I apologise for my ignorance of the expression "the borg". = What is it? 2. The quote you included I am aware of too, I agree with it, mine was just= a comment on how things are nowadays, I know that all that is happening is= but part of the divine plan but a cold reading of it sometimes makes me fe= el worried about the destiny of mankind=B4s spirituality in this life time = of mine!! Many manvantaras will pass though for Man notice the divine insid= e as a whole. Krishtar BR ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 1:06 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" Dear Krishtar We are different from "the Borg" because we have free will. To quote Theosophy The whole Cosmos is guided by an endless heirarchy. Every entity lives its = life in the sphere of a greater being. Every member of the Heirarchy is lin= ked together. Every being or every entity is part of the Divine Plan. Our common origin in in Eternal matter - one infinite mind from which all i= deas emanate. Universe is therefore the result of the manifestation or appearance of inte= lligent and semi intelligent forces. This inner government is fulfilling a = divine plan - evolution. (spiritual) All that occurs is the self realization of the Logos (The Absolute, or SAT)= revealing itself stage by stage and all forms of life and consciousness ar= e related to each other in a ladder of evolution. The higher on the evoluti= onary ladder the more of the Logos is revealed. And all follow a Divine Plan, the laws of which I can give you if you are i= nterested. Cass krishtar wrote: Hi Friend Though I haven=B4t read this book which I own in an electronic Spanish vers= ion, I have a closely view but not that we are invent-ING, build-ING up a G= od. I gess that amost totality of humankind has already DONE it for centuries..= . One good example are the visions of God in the Bible through the lips of th= e ancient psychic whom many call prophets, always antropomorphizing Him. When one tries to prove by reasoning an explanation of a non-personal God, = one is labeled atheist by those who have this antropomorphized view. The most popular vision of God in the globe is still this way. Krishtar ______________________________________________________________________ Andrew Smith wrote: I have run across several books that advocate that we, humanity, are in the= process of "creating God" in some way. Have any of you seen this anywhere?= I found it in "The Urantia Book" where it talks about "The Supreme Being" = and also in Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny." (Both are available f= ree on the net. I can furnish the URLs if necessary) I guess the theory is = that as we collectively progress in an evolutionary way, we bind together t= o create a "super Being" of some sort. Note that this is not the Mormon doc= trine where we each become Gods, but an evolutionary idea where we are coll= ectively "God". This sounds almost like "The Borg" of scifi fame. Have any = of you heard of this or does anyone else advocate it? I'm fascinated by thi= s concept. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page - Try My Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sun Dec 12 17:36:22 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72899 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 01:36:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 01:36:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.11) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 01:36:21 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.97.107]) by mta1.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 70068820 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:34:57 -0600 CST Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20041212193532.04e6ac20@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:36:47 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 69.9.90.11 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World Intro X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You are most welcome to the list and will look forward to your contributions. All of us are learners and have much to learn. At 05:08 PM 12/11/04 +0000, aupanishad2300 wrote: >aupanishad@msn.com > >I use the name Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali because I once joined the religion >of Islam, and although I quit practicing it after the 1993 WTC >bombings, I still love it and try to live its spirit of love and >peace which is how I understand submission to Allah. > >Andrew Smith >[Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali] ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.809 / Virus Database: 551 - Release Date: 12/09/04 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Sun Dec 12 19:27:02 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31958 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 03:27:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 03:27:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.108) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 03:27:01 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:27:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV4.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 03:26:32 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:26:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 Seal-Send-Time: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:26:37 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Dec 2004 03:27:01.0177 (UTC) FILETIME=[9BE27290:01C4E0C3] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.108 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: Qalandars X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Qalandariyah Encyclop=E6dia Britannica Article=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 Page 1 of 1=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20 =20 =20=20=20=20=20 "Loosely organized group of wandering Muslim dervishes who form an =93irreg= ular=94 (bi-shar') or antinomian Sufi mystical order. The Qalandariyah seem= to have arisen from the earlier Malamatiyah in Central Asia and exhibited = Buddhist and perhaps Hindu influences. The adherents of the order were noto= rious for their contempt for the norms of Muslim society, and their use of = drugs." Andrew William Smith, F.T.S., M.A. Qalandar: Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you, Inshallah, live in interesting times!" La iliha il-Allah!Anna Muhammadan rasul Allah! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samblo@cs.com Sun Dec 12 22:55:14 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 45013 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 06:55:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 06:55:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d21.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.207) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 06:55:14 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.76.484f9252 (17079) for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:55:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <76.484f9252.2eee96c5@cs.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:55:01 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.144.207 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB's "Spirit" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Andrew, I am not contemplating my navel, I was in the Army. John From samblo@cs.com Sun Dec 12 23:16:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 36319 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 07:16:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 07:16:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m26.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.7) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 07:16:34 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m26.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.82.1d53d988 (17079) for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 02:16:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <82.1d53d988.2eee9bb9@cs.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 02:16:09 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.7 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Andrew, So you think the Borg are Sci-fi do you? Well, let me say the Borg are well established and have been for quite a while. Consider the following. Who do you think created that fabulous Broadway Musical "Borgy and Bess?" Haven't you ever drank that certified Wine "Borg and David?" Or have you never bought a Borg and Warner Tool or Auto Part? Haven't you ever stopped to have a delicious burger at Borger King? Who do you think put Walt Disney up to making that Cartoon "Borgy Pig?" Why does every little Hamlet in Germany have a Borgameister? Who do you think that famous Actor Ernest Borg-nine really was? John From leonmaurer@aol.com Mon Dec 13 00:54:49 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67887 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 08:54:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 08:54:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m25.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.6) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 08:54:48 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.54.396e96af (3924); Mon, 13 Dec 2004 03:54:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <54.396e96af.2eeeb2d1@aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 03:54:41 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.6 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: How fractal evolution works X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Anyone who wishes to see this picture (which has been removed by the Yahoo mailer) please request me to send it to you directly as both an imbedded animated gif image in the text and as an attachment. leonmaurer@aol.com In a message dated 12/09/04 7:27:36 AM, leonmaurer@aol.com writes: >How fractal evolution works -- to build universes, brains, trees, etc. > >To stop animation click on picture in letter or after downloading and opening >in browser. > >Enjoy, > >Lenny > >[Unable to display image] > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 13 02:14:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15075 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 10:14:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 10:14:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.158) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 10:14:05 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-180-008-001.fnsce7002.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.180.8.1]) by smtp2.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61DF83472 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:14:02 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.5.0]); Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:12:26 -0200 Message-ID: <005e01c4e0fc$3ea68f60$0301010a@versus> To: Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:12:26 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.158 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not to mention, John, that almost all of us make a long "borg" sound after a delicious glass of coke. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: samblo@cs.com To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 5:16 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" Andrew, So you think the Borg are Sci-fi do you? Well, let me say the Borg are well established and have been for quite a while. Consider the following. Who do you think created that fabulous Broadway Musical "Borgy and Bess?" Haven't you ever drank that certified Wine "Borg and David?" Or have you never bought a Borg and Warner Tool or Auto Part? Haven't you ever stopped to have a delicious burger at Borger King? Who do you think put Walt Disney up to making that Cartoon "Borgy Pig?" Why does every little Hamlet in Germany have a Borgameister? Who do you think that famous Actor Ernest Borg-nine really was? John Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 13 02:17:34 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65599 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 10:17:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 10:17:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp4.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.180) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 10:17:33 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-180-008-001.fnsce7002.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.180.8.1]) by smtp4.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 996E833E99 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:17:27 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.5.0]); Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:15:51 -0200 Message-ID: <006e01c4e0fc$b8fd3980$0301010a@versus> To: Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:15:51 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.180 From: "krishtar" Subject: Bogs everywhere creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not to mention, John, that almost all of us make a long "borg" sound after a delicious glass of coke. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: samblo@cs.com To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 5:16 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" Andrew, So you think the Borg are Sci-fi do you? Well, let me say the Borg are well established and have been for quite a while. Consider the following. Who do you think created that fabulous Broadway Musical "Borgy and Bess?" Haven't you ever drank that certified Wine "Borg and David?" Or have you never bought a Borg and Warner Tool or Auto Part? Haven't you ever stopped to have a delicious burger at Borger King? Who do you think put Walt Disney up to making that Cartoon "Borgy Pig?" Why does every little Hamlet in Germany have a Borgameister? Who do you think that famous Actor Ernest Borg-nine really was? John Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Mon Dec 13 11:52:04 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 42160 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 19:52:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 19:52:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx04.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.14) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 19:52:00 -0000 Received: from 3e6b0854.rev.stofanet.dk ([62.107.8.84] helo=khidr) by mx04.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1CdwDo-00020y-0O for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:51:04 +0100 Message-ID: <000a01c4e14d$6da55660$54086b3e@khidr> To: Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:53:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 212.10.10.14 From: "M. Sufilight" Subject: See you on the 7th level... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo all, My views are: Here is a little comforting story... THE EASY ESCAPE Mulla Nasrudin was coming to after a serious operation. He was just conscious enough to feel the softness of the comfortable bed and the warmth of gentle hands on his forehead. "Where am I?" he asked. "In Heaven?" "NO," said his wife, "I AM STILL RIGHT HERE WITH YOU." from M. Sufilight [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rajputks@hotmail.com Mon Dec 13 18:06:09 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 68027 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 02:06:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 02:06:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.53.58) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 02:06:03 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:06:02 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 210.214.134.182 by by19fd.bay19.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 02:05:33 GMT X-Originating-Email: [rajputks@hotmail.com] X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <1102955877.506.90199.m12@yahoogroups.com> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Cc: mom_dad_hathi@yahoo.com, asbhand@satyam.net.in, dalmiasangita@yahoo.co.in, satishmehta4@epatra.com, kamal.singhrajput@gmail.com, Gajendrak@hotmail.com, mahendra!1_in@rediffmail.com Bcc: Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 07:35:33 +0530 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Dec 2004 02:06:02.0200 (UTC) FILETIME=[761F2580:01C4E181] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.4.53.58 From: "Kamal Singh Rajput" X-Originating-IP: [210.214.134.182] Subject: Projection of Astral Body - III X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206765605 PROJECTION OF ASTRAL BODY – III With the success of the first two experiments on projection of astral body; I got extreme fascination or actually craze for the projection. While going to sleep, I started to feel the astral vibrations. Now and then, whenever I awoke at the astral plane; I found my self as an astral body floating in air just below the ceiling. Some times, I use to find myself above the roof. I could see haze around me. There, I used to plan; where to go and what to do. Many times; I used to loose my consciousness at the astral plane and slipped to deep sleep. I used to fly over the Sagar Lake and above the houses and trees. Rarely, I met persons at the astral plane. These experiments continued for about 5-6 years. ...Kamal-S-Rajput... _________________________________________________________________ Citibank Suvidha account at No Minimum Balance! http://creative.mediaturf.net/creatives/suvidha/suvidha_hmtagoffline_dec04.htm Apply & get FREE watch! From aupanishad@msn.com Mon Dec 13 18:25:24 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74996 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 02:25:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 02:25:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.107) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 02:25:23 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:25:02 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV3.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 02:24:03 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Juan" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Bob" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:24:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:24:09 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Dec 2004 02:25:02.0418 (UTC) FILETIME=[1DBE9B20:01C4E184] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.107 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: [excerpt] Friedrich Nietzsche (n.b. You Cannot Read this Too Many Times) X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Madman. Have you ever heard of the madman who on a bright morning lighted a lantern and ran to the market-place calling out unceasingly: "I seek God! I seek God!" As there were many people standing about who did not believe in God, he caused a great deal of amusement. Why? is he lost? said one. Has he strayed away like a child? said another. Or does he keep himself hidden? Is he afraid of us? Has he taken a sea voyage? Has he emigrated? - the people cried out laughingly, all in a hubbub. The insane man jumped into their midst and transfixed them with his glances. "Where is God gone?" he called out. "I mean to tell you! We have killed him, you and I! We are all his murderers! But how have we done it? How were we able to drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the whole horizon? What did we do when we loosened this earth from its sun? Whither does it now move? Whither do we move? Away from all suns? Do we not dash on unceasingly? Backwards, sideways, forwards, in all directions? Is there still an above and below? Do we not stray, as through infinite nothingness? Does not empty space breathe upon us? Has it not become colder? Does not night come on continually, darker and darker? Shall we not have to light lanterns in the morning? Do we not hear the noise of the grave-diggers who are burying God? Do we not smell the divine putrefaction? - for even Gods putrefy! God is dead! God remains dead! And we have killed him! How shall we console ourselves, the most murderous of all murderers? The holiest and the mightiest that the world has hitherto possessed, has bled to death under our knife - who will wipe the blood from us? With what water could we cleanse ourselves? What lustrums, what sacred games shall we have to devise? Is not the magnitude of this deed too great for us? Shall we not ourselves have to become Gods, merely to seem worthy of it? There never was a greater event - and on account of it, all who are born after us belong to a higher history than any history hitherto!" Here the madman was silent and looked again at his hearers; they also were silent and looked at him in surprise. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, so that it broke in pieces and was extinguished. "I come too early," e then said. "I am not yet at the right time. This prodigious event is still on its way, and is traveling - it has not yet reached men's ears. Lightning and thunder need time, the light of the stars needs time, deeds need time, even after they are done, to be seen and heard. This deed is as yet further from them than the furthest star - and yet they have done it themselves!" It is further stated that the madman made his way into different churches on the same day, and there intoned his Requiem aeternam deo. When led out and called to account, he always gave the reply: "What are these churches now, if they are not the tombs and monuments of God?" Andy Smith [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Mon Dec 13 20:01:47 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 87992 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 04:01:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 04:01:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.46) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 04:01:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n17.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Dec 2004 04:01:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.143] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Dec 2004 04:01:46 -0000 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 04:01:35 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041212033030.3386.qmail@web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4086 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.46 From: "silva_cass" X-Originating-IP: 211.28.163.14 Subject: Re: Theos-World A Poem and an Explanation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Dear Andrew I have read that the Quran is a moral and ethical guide for its followers. How does the Quran explain Allah? Is Allah a "personal god"? Cass --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > Said as a true scientific existensialist. If life is so meaningless why not eat drink and be merry > > Andrew Smith wrote: > > Neo-Heraclitus Sententiae --- 28 Nov 2004 > > "The Red Sea is our blood" > > We are in death in life > > There is no "god" that mankind can "know" > > "Allah" is the richest conception of a deity > > The "conception of deity" is not the "conception of deity" > > Even "Allah" is not "Allah" > > We cannot "know" > > Alcohol is bad for mankind, just as is tobacco > > Coffee and tea is the drink of the Submitters > > There is no perfect religion just as there is no "god" > > The nearest thing to a "god" is DNA > > We only know divinity microscopically, never macroscopically > > The "Red Sea" is DNA > > "Allah" is the aggregate of DNA > > Allah is our (i.e., all living entities') blood > > The "Qur'an" is the most perfect scripture > > "The most perfect scripture" is not "the most perfect scripture" > > The "Mother Book" is DNA > > Muhammad was indeed the last of the Prophets > > "Threats of hell" are for our heedance to be thankful > > "Hopes" of Paradise" are to show that we are of the thankful > > Lack of thankfulness is the greatest sin > > Denial of Allah alone is lack of thankfulness > > If we are not "Beneficent" and "Merciful" we are not thankful > > "Jihad of the nafs" is none other than thankfulness > > "Thankfulness" is not "thankfulness" > > The Beneficent and Merciful is not a bloody God > > Blood pulses in life > > Life is Allah, He the pulse of pulses > > He the Life of life > > When Al-Hallaj was crucified > > When his hands and feet were cut off > > Life still lived in him > > He told the crowd of those who thought they Submitted > > "Ana al-Haq" > > He knew that his lifeblood was not the blood of Allah > > He knew, too, that Allah was his lifeblood > > He whispered, "Oh Allah, if they knew what I know, > > They could never shed my blood" > > What would we shed our blood for? > > My tomcat sheds my blood profusely > > I love him still > > Love and blood purges our Nafs > > Lay not the "Qur'an aside, it is not bloody as the Salafies would have us believe > > It is love, the love of Allah toward man > > And, yet Allah is so far and so close that we cannot find Him > > The Friend is far, but close, Is He not? > > "The Diamond Sutra" of Buddhism tells us > > That the truth is not the truth, because we cannot "pin down" the Truth > > And, yet it exists > > What we can "pin down" is not life > > It is the death of life > > --- Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali > > [pseudonym for Andrew W. Smith] > > > > N.B."How can this be? If these Bodhisattvas, Subhuti, should perceive either dharma or adharma, they would think of an ego, a separate entity, a soul or a personality. Therefore the Tathagata has taught this saying with a hidden meaning: 'Those who know that the teachings about dharma are like a raft, should renounce dharma and, even more, renounce adharma.'" > > Buddha asked: "Do you think, Subhuti, that the Tathagata knows any dharma as the ultimate and perfect enlightenment? Has the Tathagata ever set forth such a teaching?" > > Subhuti reponded: "Not according to my understanding of the teachings of the Tathagata. Why? The dharma which the Tathagata fully knows and has set forth can neither be thought nor formulated in words, for it is neither dharma nor adharma." --- From "The Diamond Sutra" > > Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali > "May you live in interesting times!" > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yensiare@yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 02:38:39 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: yensiare@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44815 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 10:38:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 10:38:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web51704.mail.yahoo.com) (206.190.38.222) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 10:38:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 7040 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Dec 2004 10:38:20 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Y4/VkV8R2Y/dxkPsUvaNo+DxQvMwys0SkFrY88s3AZMB+NbPNYLP7mhSBLVjcQRqowjE/Ug/sUJHoBwML+107L7T3oXtFcMiAH3itnmZtfytw2Gb8MYdZapxyF23rz3SQV6pPqhf2+Yj63K3cmEFbi6ZrR6XrYbaSsb/LeD7yPo= ; Message-ID: <20041214103820.7038.qmail@web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [219.65.109.98] by web51704.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 02:38:20 PST Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 02:38:20 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20041130151411.1961.qmail@web86910.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 206.190.38.222 From: "ramanujachary n.c." Subject: Re: Theos-World A.E. Powell, and his Books on the Subtle Bodies. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=149545415 X-Yahoo-Profile: yensiare Powell's books are basically compilations from the works of Annie Besant and CWLeadbeater. Those who are not in accord with them are apt to say that 'information' is not accurate. No book can be accurate in the way each individual desires it. Dr Ramanujachary --- robert searle wrote: > > > DEAR ALL, > > I have read somewhere that Powells books > on > the subtle bodies is not completely accurate. How > true > is all this? Also, I would be grateful for any > further > comments on MULTI-DIMENSIONAL SCIENCE, AND THE > RADHASOAMI FAITH. I hope things can liven up a bit > around here, or else I will have to unsubscribe. > > Looking forward to your interested cooperation, and > comments. > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! > Messenger > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > theos-talk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > ===== DR. N.C.RAMANUJACHARY, BESANT GARDENS, THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY, ADYAR,CHENNAI 600 020 PHONE: 044-4913584;044-4903008 THEOSOPHY IS THE BEST RECIPE FOR LIFE. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From aupanishad@msn.com Tue Dec 14 06:54:18 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63819 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 14:54:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 14:54:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.47) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 14:54:17 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n18.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Dec 2004 14:54:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.143] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Dec 2004 14:54:11 -0000 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:54:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1160 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.47 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Re: Theos-World A Poem and an Explanation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "silva_cass" wrote: > > Dear Andrew > I have read that the Quran is a moral and ethical guide for its > followers. How does the Quran explain Allah? Is Allah a "personal > god"? > Cass Cass, you can read for yourself, there are many editions of the Qur'an on the NET (I'll add a URL below). Allah is not like old Jehovah or Jesus or even Buddha (who was an agnostic, but who was turned into a god by his followers), but is absolutely unique, what science might call a "singularity." All is Beneficent, Merciful, the Cherisher of His followers, and loves all that He has created. He has allowed humankind the freedom to prove their worthiness for rewards or for punishment for their sins. What I like the best is His "Tawhid" or Oneness, Absolute Unity, pure Monotheism. There is no "trinity" in Him, and there are no other gods to confuse things. I think you may have read or heard some terrible things about the Qur'an, but it's not there. The Qur'an is a pure and wonderful Book to me and to millions of others. I can only recommedn that you you read it for yourself. Andrew From aupanishad@msn.com Tue Dec 14 06:56:31 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 68948 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 14:56:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 14:56:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.28) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 14:56:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n14.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Dec 2004 14:56:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.145] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Dec 2004 14:56:29 -0000 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:55:46 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 49 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.28 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: URL for Qur'an X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ Andrew Smith From aupanishad@msn.com Tue Dec 14 10:25:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91903 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 18:25:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 18:25:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.40) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 18:25:14 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Dec 2004 18:24:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.140] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Dec 2004 18:24:07 -0000 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:24:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1548 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.40 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Re: Theos-World A Poem and an Explanation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "silva_cass" wrote: > > Dear Andrew > I have read that the Quran is a moral and ethical guide for its > followers. How does the Quran explain Allah? Is Allah a "personal > god"? > Cass > Cass, Guru Nanak, who was both a Muslim and a Hindu (therefore a Sikh) wrote the following concerning Allah: All things are manifestations of His Will, But His Will is beyond description. By His Will is matter quickened into life, By His Will is greatness obtained, By His Will some are born high and others low. By His Will are men's joys and sorrows ordained, By His Will (the pious) obtain Salvation, By His Will (the impious) wander in endless transmigration. All exist under His Will, And nothing stands outside. One attuned with His Will, O Nanak, is wholly freed from ego. III Some sing of His greatness, but only according to the power bestowed upon them, Some sing of His bounties, taking them as His signs, Some sing of Him as incomprehensible, Some sing of Him, as transmitting dust into life, and life into dust again:Creator and Destroyer, the Giver of life and its Withdrawer. Some sing of Him as at once the nearest, and the most remote, There is no end to His description. Countless have tried to describe Him, but He still stands beyond all description. His recipients may tire, but His bounty is untiring, Ages upon ages, Man has fed upon it. His Will directs the world, And yet, O Nanak, He dwells beyond concern or care. Andrew From aupanishad@msn.com Tue Dec 14 10:34:09 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 84776 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 18:34:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 18:34:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.123) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 18:34:09 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:34:04 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV19.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:33:57 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "JOYCE SMITH" Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:34:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:34:04 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Dec 2004 18:34:04.0663 (UTC) FILETIME=[7D392070:01C4E20B] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.123 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: I Am X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am in the interstices Like Nanak, Kabir, Hafiz And Hallaj, my beloved I worship Allah and Allah alone But between those who try to capture Him Don't try to classify me Allah is in the interstices too Not just in Mecca, Karbala, or Madras Says Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Tue Dec 14 13:03:11 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40688 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 21:02:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 21:02:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.net4india.com) (202.71.129.73) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 21:02:34 -0000 Received: from [61.1.104.73] (helo=k1) by smtp.net4india.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1CeJoN-0002nd-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:32:23 +0530 Message-ID: <004201c4e21f$a561a540$4968013d@k1> To: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:27:49 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.71.129.73 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Theosophy in Practice X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: www_anandgholap_net Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable www.AnandGholap.net EVERY thought of man upon being evolved passes into the inner world, and be= comes an active entity by associating itself, coalescing we might term it, = with an elemental=97that is to say, with one of the semi-intelligent forces= of the kingdoms. It survives as an active intelligence=97a creature of the= mind's begetting=97for a longer or shorter period proportionate with the o= riginal intensity of the cerebral action which generated it. Thus a good th= ought is perpetuated as an active, benefi=ADcent power, an evil one as a ma= leficent demon. And so man is continually peopling his current in space wit= h a world of his own, crowded with the offspring of his fancies, desires, i= mpulses and passions; a current which reacts upon any sensitive or nervous = organization which comes in contact with it, in proportion to its dynamic i= ntensity. The Buddhist calls it his "Skandha"; the Hindu gives it the name = of " Karma". The Adept evolves these shapes consciously; other men throw th= em off unconsciously.1 2 No more graphic picture of the essential nature of karma has ever been give= n than in these words, taken from one of the early letters of Master K. H. = If these are clearly understood, with all their implications, the perplexit= ies which surround the subject will for the most part disappear, and the ma= in principle underly=ADing karmic action will be grasped. They will therefo= re be taken as indicating the best line of study, and we shall begin by con= sidering the creative powers of man. All we need as preface is a clear conc= eption of the invariability of law, and of the great planes in Nature. The Invariability of Law That we live in a realm of law, that we are sur=ADrounded by laws that we c= annot break, this is a truism. Yet when the fact is recognized in a real -a= nd vital way, and when it is seen to be a fact in the mental and moral worl= d as much as in the physical, a certain sense of helplessness is apt to ove= rpower us, as though we felt ourselves in the grip of some mighty power, th= at, seizing us, whirls us away whither it will. The very reverse of this is= in reality the case, for the mighty power, when it is understood, will obe= di=ADently carry us whither we will: all forces in Nature can be used in pr= oportion as they are understood=97 3 " Nature is conquered by obedience "=97and her resistless energies are at o= ur bidding as soon as we, by knowledge, work with them and not against them= . We can choose out of her boundless stores the forces that serve our purpo= se in momentum, in direction, and so on, and their very invariability becom= es the guarantee of our success. On the invariability of law depends the security of scientific experiment, = and all power of planning a result and of predicting the future. On this th= e chemist rests, sure that Nature will ever respond in the same way, if he = be precise in putting his questions. A variation in his results is taken by= him as implying a change in his procedure, not a change in Nature. And so = with all human action; the more it is based on knowledge, the more secure i= s it in its forecastings, for all " accident" is the result of ignorance, a= nd is due to the working of laws whose presence was unknown or overlooked. = In the mental and moral worlds, as much as in the physical, results can be = foreseen, planned for, calculated on. Nature never betrays us; we are betra= yed by our own blindness. In all worlds increasing knowledge means increasi= ng power, and omniscience and omnipotence are one. That law should be as invariable in the mental and moral worlds as in the p= hysical is to be expected, since 4 the universe is the emanation of the ONE, and what we call Law is but the e= xpression of the Divine Nature. As there is one Life emanating all, so ther= e is one Law sustaining all; the worlds rest on this rock of the Divine Nat= ure as on a secure, immutable foundation. The Planes of Nature To study the workings of karma on the line sug=ADgested by the Master, we m= ust gain a clear conception of the three lower planes, or regions, of the u= niverse, and of the principles 1 related to them. The names given to them i= ndicate the state of the consciousness working on them. In this a diagram m= ay help us, showing the planes with the principles related to them, and the= vehicles in which a conscious entity may visit them. In practical occultis= m the student learns to visit these planes, and by his own investigations t= o transform theory into knowledge. The lowest vehicle, the gross body, serv= es the consciousness for its work on the physi=ADcal plane, and in this the= consciousness is limited with=ADin the capacities of the brain. The term s= ubtle body covers a variety of astral bodies, respectively suitable to the = varying conditions of the very complicated region indicated by the name psy= chic plane. On the = =20 5 devachanic plane there are two well-defined levels, the form level and the = formless level; on the lower, consci=ADousness uses an artificial body, the= mayavi rupa, but the term Mind Body seems suitable as indicating that the = matter of which it is composed belongs to the plane of manas. On the formle= ss level the causal body must be used. Of the buddhic plane it is needless = to speak. Now the matter on these planes is not the same, and speaking gene= rally, the matter of each plane is denser than that of the one above it. Th= is is accord=ADing to the analogy of Nature, for evolution in its downward = course is from rare to dense, from subtle to gross. Further, vast hierarchi= es of beings inhabit these planes, ranging from the lofty intelligences of = the spiritual region to the lowest sub-conscious elementals of the physical= world. On every plane spirit and matter are conjoined in every particle=97= -every particle having matter as its body, spirit as its life=97and all ind= ependent aggregations of particles, all separated forms of every kind, of e= very type, are ensouled by these living beings, varying in their grades acc= ording to the grade of the form. No form exists which is not thus ensouled,= but the informing entity may be the loftiest intelligence, the lowest elem= ental, or any of the countless hosts that range between Complete book can be read at http://www.anandgholap.net/Karma-AB.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Tue Dec 14 13:34:58 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 60625 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 21:34:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 21:34:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 21:34:56 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-102-051-246.fnsce7004.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.102.51.246]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25FAF33ED3 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:34:45 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.5.3]); Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:33:03 -0200 Message-ID: <005601c4e224$7ddf4220$0301010a@versus> To: References: <004201c4e21f$a561a540$4968013d@k1> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:33:03 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophy in Practice_Gholap X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi anand! Anand Gholap among other things quotes this marvellous excerpt:: "EVERY thought of man upon being evolved passes into the inner world, and b= ecomes an active entity by associating itself, coalescing we might term it,= with an elemental-that is to say, with one of the semi-intelligent forces = of the kingdoms. It survives as an active intelligence-a creature of the mi= nd's begetting-for a longer or shorter period proportionate with the origin= al intensity of the cerebral action which generated it. Thus a good thought= is perpetuated as an active, benefi=ADcent power, an evil one as a malefic= ent demon. And so man is continually peopling his current in space with a w= orld of his own, crowded with the offspring of his fancies, desires, impuls= es and passions; a current which reacts upon any sensitive or nervous organ= ization which comes in contact with it, in proportion to its dynamic intens= ity. The Buddhist calls it his "Skandha"; the Hindu gives it the name of " = Karma". The Adept evolves these shapes consciously; other men throw them of= f unconsciously." A question: Coincidentally I am reading about the same subjects in a G. De Purucker boo= k. Why do spiritists raise so much resistence in believing in the truth behind= the phenomenons? Why do they still insist in atributting to spirits of the beyond all the fe= nomenology involved? Why is it so difficult to dome down the huge throne of egocentrism and see = that what they worship as a God=B4s gift is a " serpent behind " the rose = as in the Voice of Silence? Is it because it is simpler and more adapted to the human=B4s ideas of the = continuation of life in a way so similar to ours?! Questions and questions... Krishtar [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Tue Dec 14 14:03:38 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 36037 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 22:03:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 22:03:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 22:03:35 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-102-051-246.fnsce7004.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.102.51.246]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C6C3475 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:03:32 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.5.3]); Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:01:50 -0200 Message-ID: <008201c4e228$8373f380$0301010a@versus> To: Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:01:50 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends I got astonished by the TV show in which the english pseudo-psychic John Ed= wards claims and ( broadcasts ) his " contacts" with the Dead relatives fo= rm his audience...=20 Van Praagh also does this tricks using the cold -reading technique. I would like to know what is the point of view of the people uf USA and Eur= ope. The men are promulgating the same teachings and POV=B4s from the kardecist = spiritists...but using trickery to atract the attention. The technique is very elaborated...a perfect TV show. What is the general opinion in your circles of friendship about it? Krishtar [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Tue Dec 14 14:31:02 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91111 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 22:31:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 22:31:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.121) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 22:31:02 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:31:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV17.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 22:30:00 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "JOYCE SMITH" Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:30:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:30:07 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Dec 2004 22:31:01.0259 (UTC) FILETIME=[96F985B0:01C4E22C] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.121 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: La iliha ilallah X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am an atheist in the interstices Like Nanak, Kabir, Hafiz And Hallaj, my beloved I worship Allah and Allah alone In between those sects which try to capture Him Don't try to classify me in any sect Allah is in the interstices Not just in Mecca, Karbala, or Madras (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali N.B. "God" (whom I like to call "Allah" due to it's radical montheistic tone) simply can't be known in any way possible except as a feeling in our "heart" (mind). Allah is an instinctive presence, as Meister Eckhart, the German Christian mystic, understood. Like many other mystics, I would rather call myself an atheist than to try to speak about or for Allah. I am atheistic about all other gods, and Allah is only Allah, "La iliha ilallah." Salaam Alaikum, Andrew W. Smith [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Tue Dec 14 14:35:18 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14299 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 22:35:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 22:35:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.173.60) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 22:35:11 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:35:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV30.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 22:34:18 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "JOYCE SMITH" , "Juan Schoch" Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:34:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:34:25 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Dec 2004 22:35:01.0755 (UTC) FILETIME=[26524CB0:01C4E22D] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.173.60 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: RE: Nietzsche X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Out of life's school of war: What does not destroy me, makes me stronger. Nietzsche Salaam Alaikum, Andrew W. Smith [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 15:26:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51800 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 23:26:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 23:26:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.80) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 23:26:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 3059 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Dec 2004 23:26:57 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=t9e0BcaLBEwT4JnLvUraALRdKTHkvpqVlJu4WBC2+A0eRcIbWeZiXL6eoy5FXXAcw55yAgjCE8TY0Yt0FFwVt83HJ1MV6j7xvzbDdE2ulVoCUCpobQEH/s5O1KOdGlQxMXYk+PVwzf1vKHTrhh77GKV/v62t0R8OPnPY+Y4HKts= ; Message-ID: <20041214232657.3057.qmail@web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:26:57 PST Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:26:57 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.80 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World A Poem and an Explanation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Andrew Who wrote it? "Andrew W. Smith" wrote: --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "silva_cass" wrote: > > Dear Andrew > I have read that the Quran is a moral and ethical guide for its > followers. How does the Quran explain Allah? Is Allah a "personal > god"? > Cass Cass, you can read for yourself, there are many editions of the Qur'an on the NET (I'll add a URL below). Allah is not like old Jehovah or Jesus or even Buddha (who was an agnostic, but who was turned into a god by his followers), but is absolutely unique, what science might call a "singularity." All is Beneficent, Merciful, the Cherisher of His followers, and loves all that He has created. He has allowed humankind the freedom to prove their worthiness for rewards or for punishment for their sins. What I like the best is His "Tawhid" or Oneness, Absolute Unity, pure Monotheism. There is no "trinity" in Him, and there are no other gods to confuse things. I think you may have read or heard some terrible things about the Qur'an, but it's not there. The Qur'an is a pure and wonderful Book to me and to millions of others. I can only recommedn that you you read it for yourself. Andrew Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 15:38:56 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 57616 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 23:38:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 23:38:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web41506.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.93.89) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 23:38:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 85142 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Dec 2004 23:38:55 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=NUDQV/ltt12r/uO56te5YqwLNheJzWzMIWuK2vtVfqiMtekD1s9+iExHqLJu77CWq6VbIEj0nf5r9IGYHIcxkpN5i7wBOJOrWNURAq9Kgn/9ooZk5Dwy1VH4Xzs+6tFd2s0Nd9XsXM6urBahLThaZvyLwnX/uzYRZDGGpIk66b4= ; Message-ID: <20041214233855.85140.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [148.177.1.213] by web41506.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:38:55 PST Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:38:55 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <008201c4e228$8373f380$0301010a@versus> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.93.89 From: Towers1209 Reply-To: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=205723283 X-Yahoo-Profile: traveller1209 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable krishtar wrote: Friends I got astonished by the TV show in which the english pseudo-psychic John Ed= wards claims and ( broadcasts ) his " contacts" with the Dead relatives for= m his audience...=20 =20 Pseudo-psychic? How do you know? Any proof? Besides, John Edwards is not English, he is an American from LonggEyeland (= that=92s the usual local pronunciation of Long Island by the locals. Tell = them that, and they will respond with, "Really? Nooo. I don=92t say it tha= t way. I say =91Long Island=92 ") =20 The men are promulgating the same teachings and POV=B4s from the kardecist = spiritists...but using trickery to atract the attention. =20 Trickery? Again, how do you know? Any proof? =20 The reason I am asking this is not to attack you. But simply asking for pro= of.=20=20 =20 For a University of Arizona study by Dr. Gary Schwartz on the so-called psy= chics, including John Edwards, please see http://www.openmindsciences.com/.= John Edwards had one of the highest hit percentage among those tested. = =20 =20 Some links that has reviews on the book and John Edwards are the ff: http:/= /www.johnedwardfriends.org/links/links-schwartz.shtml =20 http://www.openmindsciences.com/hbo-exp.htm =20 Loreto [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Dec 14 15:51:47 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 1146 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 23:51:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 23:51:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 23:51:45 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CeMSH-0001kN-Ds for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:51:45 -0500 Message-ID: <41BF7C65.60002@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:51:01 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041214233855.85140.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041214233855.85140.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba98651ab2f8836f06a361f48be9e6daa63ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.66 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Towers1209 wrote: > I got astonished by the TV show in which the english pseudo-psychic > John Edwards claims and ( broadcasts ) his " contacts" with the Dead > relatives form his audience... > > Pseudo-psychic? How do you know? Any proof? Well, actually, the burden of proof is on him that he is psychic. However, here's an interesting article on the subject: http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-11/i-files.html Bart From towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 16:07:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94546 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 00:07:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 00:07:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 00:07:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 00:07:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.158] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 00:07:28 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:07:25 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41BF7C65.60002@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 735 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.41 From: "traveller1209" X-Originating-IP: 148.177.1.213 Subject: Re: John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=205723283 X-Yahoo-Profile: traveller1209 With due respect, Bart. This message is not addressed to you. But, of course, you are always free to do whatever yuo want with it. But, etiquette requires that one does not address stuff not intended for him. --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Towers1209 wrote: > > I got astonished by the TV show in which the english pseudo- psychic > > John Edwards claims and ( broadcasts ) his " contacts" with the Dead > > relatives form his audience... > > > > Pseudo-psychic? How do you know? Any proof? > > Well, actually, the burden of proof is on him that he is psychic. > However, here's an interesting article on the subject: > > http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-11/i-files.html > > Bart From aupanishad@msn.com Tue Dec 14 16:26:57 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 18493 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 00:26:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 00:26:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.20) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 00:26:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n12.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 00:26:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 00:26:56 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:26:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041214232657.3057.qmail@web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1978 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.20 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Re: Theos-World A Poem and an Explanation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > Dear Andrew > Who wrote it? > > "Andrew W. Smith" wrote: > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "silva_cass" > wrote: > > > > Dear Andrew > > I have read that the Quran is a moral and ethical guide for its > > followers. How does the Quran explain Allah? Is Allah > a "personal > > god"? > > Cass > Cass, you can read for yourself, there are many editions of the > Qur'an on the NET (I'll add a URL below). Allah is not like old > Jehovah or Jesus or even Buddha (who was an agnostic, but who was > turned into a god by his followers), but is absolutely unique, what > science might call a "singularity." All is Beneficent, Merciful, the > Cherisher of His followers, and loves all that He has created. He > has allowed humankind the freedom to prove their worthiness for > rewards or for punishment for their sins. What I like the best is > His "Tawhid" or Oneness, Absolute Unity, pure Monotheism. There is > no "trinity" in Him, and there are no other gods to confuse things. > I think you may have read or heard some terrible things about the > Qur'an, but it's not there. The Qur'an is a pure and wonderful Book > to me and to millions of others. I can only recommedn that you you > read it for yourself. > > Andrew > > >Cass, The Holy Qur'an was dictated to Muhammad by Allah's creation, the angel Gabrial (Jabril), who was the same one who gave Mary her annunciation about her pregnancy with Jesus, another Muslim Prophet. Allah spoke to Mary through Gabrail and said "BE" and He was, and became Allah's Prophet. When the end of ages come, Jesus will say salat (prayers)alongside the Prophet Muhammad. Salaam Alaikum, (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Dec 14 16:39:56 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15352 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 00:39:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 00:39:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 00:39:55 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CeNCr-0007Mw-V1 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:39:54 -0500 Message-ID: <41BF87DD.4070902@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:39:57 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba72bf9934bc5beb69a0bfe676bd11a0ca795b3f24a9f74b7f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.66 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 traveller1209 wrote: > With due respect, Bart. This message is not addressed to you. But, > of course, you are always free to do whatever yuo want with it. > > But, etiquette requires that one does not address stuff not intended > for him. If a message is supposed to be private, then SEND IT IN PRIVATE!!!! I have been active in online discussion since before you even HEARD of the Internet, and I have NEVER heard that rule of "etiquette" before. Bart From silva_cass@yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 16:46:23 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24687 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 00:46:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 00:46:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.46) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 00:46:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n17.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 00:46:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.179] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 00:46:21 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:46:20 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2220 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.46 From: "silva_cass" X-Originating-IP: 211.28.163.14 Subject: THE QURAN X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass I meant who wrote the Quran? --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew W. Smith" wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > > Dear Andrew > > Who wrote it? > > > > "Andrew W. Smith" wrote: > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "silva_cass" > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Andrew > > > I have read that the Quran is a moral and ethical guide for its > > > followers. How does the Quran explain Allah? Is Allah > > a "personal > > > god"? > > > Cass > > Cass, you can read for yourself, there are many editions of the > > Qur'an on the NET (I'll add a URL below). Allah is not like old > > Jehovah or Jesus or even Buddha (who was an agnostic, but who was > > turned into a god by his followers), but is absolutely unique, what > > science might call a "singularity." All is Beneficent, Merciful, > the > > Cherisher of His followers, and loves all that He has created. He > > has allowed humankind the freedom to prove their worthiness for > > rewards or for punishment for their sins. What I like the best is > > His "Tawhid" or Oneness, Absolute Unity, pure Monotheism. There is > > no "trinity" in Him, and there are no other gods to confuse things. > > I think you may have read or heard some terrible things about the > > Qur'an, but it's not there. The Qur'an is a pure and wonderful Book > > to me and to millions of others. I can only recommedn that you you > > read it for yourself. > > > > Andrew > > > > > >Cass, > The Holy Qur'an was dictated to Muhammad by Allah's creation, the > angel Gabrial (Jabril), who was the same one who gave Mary her > annunciation about her pregnancy with Jesus, another Muslim Prophet. > Allah spoke to Mary through Gabrail and said "BE" and He was, and > became Allah's Prophet. When the end of ages come, Jesus will say > salat (prayers)alongside the Prophet Muhammad. > > Salaam Alaikum, > (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rajputks@hotmail.com Tue Dec 14 18:03:25 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 84836 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 02:03:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 02:03:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.53.81) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 02:03:14 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:03:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 210.214.134.24 by by19fd.bay19.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:02:51 GMT X-Originating-Email: [rajputks@hotmail.com] X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <1103048392.672.62223.m12@yahoogroups.com> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Cc: mom_dad_hathi@yahoo.com, asbhand@satyam.net.in, dalmiasangita@yahoo.co.in, pasqualina@pasqualina.com, kamal.singhrajput@gmail.com Bcc: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 07:32:51 +0530 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Dec 2004 02:03:01.0806 (UTC) FILETIME=[3502F4E0:01C4E24A] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.4.53.81 From: "Kamal Singh Rajput" X-Originating-IP: [210.214.134.24] Subject: Projection of Astral Body - IV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206765605 PROJECTION OF ASTRAL BODY – IV One fine morning, my eldest daughter Alka woke up very much terrified. She told me how she saw her self standing away from her body. My wife was equally worried. This was Alka’s first out of body experience. I had never told her about astral body and its projection. The situation demanded that I explain her about the existence of astral body and its projection. Alka calmed down. Due to chronic illness, Alka had become quite weak. She complained to me that when she goes to sleep; her astral body gets ejected automatically. During this state, she is able to witness every activity going around. She calls the members of the family but no one hears. “Whenever I want to enter my physical body; I am to keep on trying for very long time and I get very much tired.” She told. She also said that whenever I used to call her; her astral body quickly enters the physical. We picked up the clue. Whenever, Alka used to go to sleep during the day; I used to call her every 15 minutes or so. The problem of difficult entry of the astral to the physical was solved. I was in a subconscious state in my bed at night. I was in a mosquito net. Room light was on. Suddenly, I saw a sudden increase in the intensity of light in the room. Alka in her astral body was standing beside my bed. She appeared like a white angel glowing with light. Her astral body appeared to consist of glowing mist or dense steam. Alka kissed me and I kissed her and I asked her, “ Let us go together.” And we went together in our astral bodies. Afterwards, I slipped into deep sleep. Next morning, I asked Alka whether she came to my room in astral form. She abruptly exclaimed, “ HAN PAPA MAIN TO PAKDI GAI.” (YES PAPA I HAVE BEEN CAUGHT). ...Kamal-S-Rajput... _________________________________________________________________ Microsoft’s festive bonanza! Buy a branded Home PC. http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/festivebonanza/ Win a fabulous holiday! From aupanishad@msn.com Tue Dec 14 18:33:30 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 36625 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 02:33:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 02:33:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 02:33:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 02:33:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.113] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 02:33:27 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:33:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2778 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.38 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Re: Projection of Astral Body - IV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Kamal Singh Rajput"=20 wrote: > PROJECTION OF ASTRAL BODY =96 IV >=20 > One fine morning, my eldest daughter Alka woke up=20 very much=20 > terrified. She told me how she saw her self standing away from her=20 body. My=20 > wife was equally worried. This was Alka's first out of body=20 experience. I=20 > had never told her about astral body and its projection. The=20 situation=20 > demanded that I explain her about the existence of astral body and=20 its=20 > projection. Alka calmed down. >=20 > Due to chronic illness, Alka had become quite=20 weak. She=20 > complained to me that when she goes to sleep; her astral body gets=20 ejected=20 > automatically. During this state, she is able to witness every=20 activity=20 > going around. She calls the members of the family but no one hears.=20 > "Whenever I want to enter my physical body; I am to keep on trying=20 for very=20 > long time and I get very much tired." She told. She also said that=20 whenever=20 > I used to call her; her astral body quickly enters the physical. >=20 > We picked up the clue. Whenever, Alka used to go=20 to sleep=20 > during the day; I used to call her every 15 minutes or so. The=20 problem of=20 > difficult entry of the astral to the physical was solved. >=20 > I was in a subconscious state in my bed at=20 night. I was=20 > in a mosquito net. Room light was on. Suddenly, I saw a sudden=20 increase in=20 > the intensity of light in the room. Alka in her astral body was=20 standing=20 > beside my bed. She appeared like a white angel glowing with light.=20 Her=20 > astral body appeared to consist of glowing mist or dense steam.=20 Alka kissed=20 > me and I kissed her and I asked her, " Let us go together." And we=20 went=20 > together in our astral bodies. Afterwards, I slipped into deep=20 sleep. >=20 > Next morning, I asked Alka whether she came to my=20 room in=20 > astral form. She abruptly exclaimed, " HAN PAPA MAIN TO PAKDI=20 GAI." (YES=20 > PAPA I HAVE BEEN CAUGHT). >=20 >=20 > ...Kamal-S-Rajput... IMHO this cannot be true, unless it is true b___s___. Why do we have=20 a plethora of hearsay evidence for such things, and not a scintilla=20 of scientific, or objective, evidence for such things? Each is=20 entitled to their own fantastic illusions and stories, but, like HPB,=20 I believe these things need to be investigated much, much deeper to=20 prevent charlantry and self-delusion. Are we as de=20 facto "Theosophists" bound to believe everything we hear or see by=20 subjective psychics? >=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Microsoft's festive bonanza! Buy a branded Home PC.=20 > http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/festivebonanza/ Win a fabulous=20 holiday! From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 19:06:42 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63753 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 03:06:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 03:06:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 03:06:41 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 03:06:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.132] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 03:06:32 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 03:06:30 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2490 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.41 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Loyd Auerbach's Two Out-of-Body Experiences X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Loyd Auerbach (parapsychologist and magician) New York 1970s It was while I was working at the ASPR [American Society for Psychical Research: http://www.aspr.com/ ] in New York, interacting with Alex [Tanous]quite a bit, that my own first OBEs happened. In the first situation, I had a very vivid dream which involved traveling to a friend's house about forty miles away. A couple of days later, my friend, who has more than just the average smattering of psychic ability, asked me if I had had a dream about visiting her on the night in question. When I replied "Yes, how did you know?" (a silly question, perhaps), she said that I had been there, "physically." Apparently, I had somehow been seen and touched by her (her dog reacted to me as well) at the time I believed I had been home dreaming. Now, assuming that I didn't sleep-drive to her house forty miles away, she either actually saw me, picked up on my dream psychically, or was just making a lucky guess. Wait, there's more. Two weeks later, I was at another friend's bachelor party, becoming very bored (sorry about that, Mike) while the other guys were watching a few of those colorful super-8 movies. I stood in the kitchen, fixing a drink and feeling a bit strange. Having felt the same way before when I had a few other experiences (my best psychic state appears to be boredom), I suddenly had the sensation of being in two places at once. I was in Mike's kitchen and I was also standing in my friend Danita's living room (same person as in the previous OBE). We had a short conversation, partly about the bachelor party, partly about other things, and I recall her saying she knew I was having an OBE and was only "dropping in." I mentioned that I'd write down a few notes when I "got back" to Mike's, and said good-bye. I found paper and pen, wrote a few notes (time, conversation details, etc.), which coincided with what Danita remembered about the situation. Quoted from: Loyd Auerbach's ESP, HAUNTINGS AND POLTERGEISTS, 1986, pp. 43-44. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0446349518 Many articles from the pen of Loyd Auerbach are online at: http://www.mindreader.com/fate/index.htm ===== Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218. From adelasie@sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 14 19:34:21 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: adelasie@sbcglobal.net@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 47303 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 03:34:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 03:34:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com) (66.163.168.181) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 03:34:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO alphanumeric) (adelasie@sbcglobal.net@66.122.77.145 with login) by smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 03:34:19 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:34:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <41BF4039.203.174BCF5@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.163.168.181 From: "adelasie" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Projection of Astral Body - IV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=161282999 Andrew, Regarding your question: Are we as de facto "Theosophists" bound > to believe everything we hear or see by subjective psychics? Certainly not. We only have to wait until it happens to us to find if we believe or not. But it doesn't hurt to consider that such things could be true, to lessen the shock in the future eventuality of having such an experience ourselves. Adelasie > From silva_cass@yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 20:23:37 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74099 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 04:23:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 04:23:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.75) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 04:23:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 69986 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Dec 2004 04:23:32 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=6AwVVfam2SfSdFS1OOmxj7+9thx1/MJ4XiEKQgDLnOz1vQKSrNqp/jJX1IxQ8UDDwEkyV5wpeQvLafUj3Cix2vjpgK2J1SilhEvsXHCsEaj7reZ48TnVGu2bnSfG4ZtBsLSghf1dT78hVIXT8ss2ecW2Y0wyIl3BRphXhLm1u7k= ; Message-ID: <20041215042332.69984.qmail@web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:23:32 PST Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:23:32 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.75 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Projection of Astral Body - IV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Andrew Is this experience so different to Muhammed's flight to heaven on the Winge= d Horse Creature where he met the four prophets? Wasnt Muhammed beyond sp= ace and time? Did not his spirit soar to the Heavens? What verification d= oes Islam have of this other than Muhammed's word? Cass "Andrew W. Smith" wrote: --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Kamal Singh Rajput"=20 wrote: > PROJECTION OF ASTRAL BODY =96 IV >=20 > One fine morning, my eldest daughter Alka woke up=20 very much=20 > terrified. She told me how she saw her self standing away from her=20 body. My=20 > wife was equally worried. This was Alka's first out of body=20 experience. I=20 > had never told her about astral body and its projection. The=20 situation=20 > demanded that I explain her about the existence of astral body and=20 its=20 > projection. Alka calmed down. >=20 > Due to chronic illness, Alka had become quite=20 weak. She=20 > complained to me that when she goes to sleep; her astral body gets=20 ejected=20 > automatically. During this state, she is able to witness every=20 activity=20 > going around. She calls the members of the family but no one hears.=20 > "Whenever I want to enter my physical body; I am to keep on trying=20 for very=20 > long time and I get very much tired." She told. She also said that=20 whenever=20 > I used to call her; her astral body quickly enters the physical. >=20 > We picked up the clue. Whenever, Alka used to go=20 to sleep=20 > during the day; I used to call her every 15 minutes or so. The=20 problem of=20 > difficult entry of the astral to the physical was solved. >=20 > I was in a subconscious state in my bed at=20 night. I was=20 > in a mosquito net. Room light was on. Suddenly, I saw a sudden=20 increase in=20 > the intensity of light in the room. Alka in her astral body was=20 standing=20 > beside my bed. She appeared like a white angel glowing with light.=20 Her=20 > astral body appeared to consist of glowing mist or dense steam.=20 Alka kissed=20 > me and I kissed her and I asked her, " Let us go together." And we=20 went=20 > together in our astral bodies. Afterwards, I slipped into deep=20 sleep. >=20 > Next morning, I asked Alka whether she came to my=20 room in=20 > astral form. She abruptly exclaimed, " HAN PAPA MAIN TO PAKDI=20 GAI." (YES=20 > PAPA I HAVE BEEN CAUGHT). >=20 >=20 > ...Kamal-S-Rajput... IMHO this cannot be true, unless it is true b___s___. Why do we have=20 a plethora of hearsay evidence for such things, and not a scintilla=20 of scientific, or objective, evidence for such things? Each is=20 entitled to their own fantastic illusions and stories, but, like HPB,=20 I believe these things need to be investigated much, much deeper to=20 prevent charlantry and self-delusion. Are we as de=20 facto "Theosophists" bound to believe everything we hear or see by=20 subjective psychics? >=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Microsoft's festive bonanza! Buy a branded Home PC.=20 > http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/festivebonanza/ Win a fabulous=20 holiday! Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Dec 14 20:26:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54273 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 04:26:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 04:26:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m14.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.204) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 04:26:58 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.dc.1bcfb35b (24895) for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:26:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:26:49 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.138.204 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/14/04 4:08:22 PM Central Standard Time, krishtar_a@brturbo.com writes: << What is the general opinion in your circles of friendship about it? >> That Edwards is a fraud, of course. Now, if I could contact someone dead who knew how to pick horses... Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Dec 14 20:27:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13948 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 04:27:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 04:27:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 04:27:58 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.19a.2cde0420 (24895) for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:27:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19a.2cde0420.2ef11746@aol.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:27:50 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.38 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Nietzsche X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/14/04 4:39:27 PM Central Standard Time, aupanishad@msn.com writes: << Out of life's school of war: What does not destroy me, makes me stronger >> Out of life's reform school: What does not destroy me makes me wish I had managed to avoid it. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Dec 14 20:30:12 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2443 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 04:30:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 04:30:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m24.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.5) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 04:30:11 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.8b.1c97a759 (24895) for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:30:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8b.1c97a759.2ef117cb@aol.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:30:03 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.5 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/14/04 6:41:38 PM Central Standard Time, bartl@sprynet.com writes: << If a message is supposed to be private, then SEND IT IN PRIVATE!!!! I have been active in online discussion since before you even HEARD of the Internet, and I have NEVER heard that rule of "etiquette" before. Bart >> Neither have I, not that we abide by rules in this bunch anyway. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Dec 14 20:32:05 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94201 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 04:32:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 04:32:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d23.mx.aol.com) (205.188.139.137) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 04:32:03 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1f9.3558979 (24895) for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:31:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1f9.3558979.2ef11838@aol.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:31:52 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.139.137 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World THE QURAN X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/14/04 6:51:28 PM Central Standard Time, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: << I meant who wrote the Quran? >> Fred the Minor Angel of the 34th Chorus, 75th row, seat 15. He put on a Gabriel mask and played a really nasty prank on poor Mohammed. Chuck the Heretic From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Tue Dec 14 20:47:45 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40334 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 04:47:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 04:47:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 04:47:27 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-101-197-225.fnsce7007.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.101.197.225]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35A9833E64 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:47:24 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.5.3]); Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:45:35 -0200 Message-ID: <004501c4e260$ea953000$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041214233855.85140.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:45:35 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar - X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Loreto Well, after reading not so many theosophical books, from CWL to HPB and al= ways trying to put into practise what they claim and experienced, visiting = psychic men and women and challenging my natural tendency for a healthy ske= ptcism, watching the programs of John Edwards ( I thought he was English, s= orry for the mistake) it became clear to me that he is kinda trickster.( TO= ME ) What he does is a show, because a true psychic doesn=B4t expose himself as= he does and would not even charge about U$500 for a private s=E9ance... If he is a serious person, I don=B4t know yet, I am still making my researc= hes, so my opinion is not conclusive. If we pay more atention to the explanations on the after-death states in b= ooks from HPB, Yogi Ramach=E1raka, CWL, Mahatma Letters to AP Sinnet and ot= hers, what I conclude is, if he were really contacting the "souls in heav= en " as he claims, most of them would be a great amount of Kamarupas and E= lementals. The description he gives alive is too elementary, looks like the first book= s on spiritualism at the times of Colonel Olcott. But if you watch the programs with indifference, you can see clearly that s= omething not genuine happens... Although I believe in the communication between different planes of existen= ce, what Edwards is showing is just his show Watch out for Cold Reading/John Edwards in the net and you=B4ll see what I = am talking about.=20 The link http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-11/i-files.html that Bart sent is al= so interesting... Well they=B4re just my views... Regards Krishtar krishtar wrote: Friends I got astonished by the TV show in which the english pseudo-psychic John Ed= wards claims and ( broadcasts ) his " contacts" with the Dead relatives for= m his audience...=20 =20 Pseudo-psychic? How do you know? Any proof? Besides, John Edwards is not English, he is an American from LonggEyeland (= that's the usual local pronunciation of Long Island by the locals. Tell th= em that, and they will respond with, "Really? Nooo. I don't say it that wa= y. I say 'Long Island' ") =20 The men are promulgating the same teachings and POV=B4s from the kardecist = spiritists...but using trickery to atract the attention. =20 Trickery? Again, how do you know? Any proof? =20 The reason I am asking this is not to attack you. But simply asking for pro= of.=20=20 =20 For a University of Arizona study by Dr. Gary Schwartz on the so-called psy= chics, including John Edwards, please see http://www.openmindsciences.com/.= John Edwards had one of the highest hit percentage among those tested. = =20 =20 Some links that has reviews on the book and John Edwards are the ff: http:/= /www.johnedwardfriends.org/links/links-schwartz.shtml =20 http://www.openmindsciences.com/hbo-exp.htm =20 Loreto [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 21:25:51 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 93150 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 05:25:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 05:25:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.81) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 05:25:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 37829 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Dec 2004 05:25:47 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ncq7b59l+unU7HhFUN1HHcE7D0rj52mmMC44DYAh3cKM8zeq6XyWTqi3crbjdLiSaNSJiBkrU1IT54alTTZAy3GXZVQWMqbp5Hb5LP0+RO8LZwxPYnYs0BTblBgK+7dZKvec5L0oTXcjHfGOB/o49OZewPQjn+OwD2Xv9MpRxwg= ; Message-ID: <20041215052547.37827.qmail@web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:25:47 PST Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:25:47 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <8b.1c97a759.2ef117cb@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.81 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Careful, or we will take your name literally!! Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 12/14/04 6:41:38 PM Central Standard Time,=20 bartl@sprynet.com writes: << If a message is supposed to be private, then SEND IT IN PRIVATE!!!! I=20 have been active in online discussion since before you even HEARD of the=20 Internet, and I have NEVER heard that rule of "etiquette" before. Bart >> Neither have I, not that we abide by rules in this bunch anyway. Chuck the Heretic Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! =96 Try it today!=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Dec 14 21:32:51 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7743 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 05:32:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 05:32:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 05:32:51 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CeRmM-0003QB-KR for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:32:50 -0500 Message-ID: <41BFCC86.8030405@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:32:54 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041215052547.37827.qmail@web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041215052547.37827.qmail@web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba053a9f2845cf5bc3934159107a85bb9330febb85a5f48815350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.66 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Cass Silva wrote: > Careful, or we will take your name literally!! Dr. Psionic, or Chuck the Heretic? Near as I can tell, both are meant to be taken literally. Well, I'm not SURE he has a doctorate.... Bart From silva_cass@yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 21:46:45 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59197 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 05:46:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 05:46:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.77) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 05:46:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 16419 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Dec 2004 05:45:44 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=FH3ehzniHJiC/hPNmmsb5IGnILBu9Ttj5BhDpZO40Z/TV617ql1el72FQD1MoN++tjqH1XaDifSwZg8ygrVdUmUjpZYzja2GxkeKhu+UNGGxqiPGu1goCjeUsTJdJkROKrSlVRfPG5qg/I/GImrDNqJqAXVDny0jOP+Vb+uPyGU= ; Message-ID: <20041215054544.16417.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:45:44 PST Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:45:44 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <41BFCC86.8030405@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.77 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where does he practice, by the rivers of babylon? chuck in Oz language means chuck-out, but I meant it in fun. Cass Bart Lidofsky wrote: Cass Silva wrote: > Careful, or we will take your name literally!! Dr. Psionic, or Chuck the Heretic? Near as I can tell, both are meant to be taken literally. Well, I'm not SURE he has a doctorate.... Bart Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samblo@cs.com Tue Dec 14 23:48:25 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 27109 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 07:48:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 07:48:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d22.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.208) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 07:48:23 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.155.45fd0b2d (4196) for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:48:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <155.45fd0b2d.2ef14640@cs.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:48:16 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.144.208 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Chuck, Have you tried making contact with dead Horses? John From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Dec 15 04:34:57 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70413 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 12:34:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 12:34:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d23.mx.aol.com) (205.188.139.137) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 12:34:56 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1f5.35743c6 (4568) for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 07:33:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1f5.35743c6.2ef1891f@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 07:33:35 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.139.137 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/14/04 11:27:24 PM Central Standard Time, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: << Careful, or we will take your name literally!! >> Could be worse. I could get called late for dinner. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Dec 15 04:35:41 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63505 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 12:35:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 12:35:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m19.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.11) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 12:35:40 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.da.1b0d2ca3 (4568) for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 07:35:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 07:35:23 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.11 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/14/04 11:48:02 PM Central Standard Time, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: << Where does he practice, by the rivers of babylon? >> Wherever they pay me. Of course I have to keep practicing because I can never get it quite right. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Dec 15 04:38:11 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63991 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 12:38:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 12:38:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 12:38:08 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.15c.45caa377 (4568) for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 07:37:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <15c.45caa377.2ef18a1b@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 07:37:47 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.38 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/15/04 1:51:57 AM Central Standard Time, samblo@cs.com writes: << Have you tried making contact with dead Horses? >> No. They tend to be rather inarticulate. Chuck the Heretic From meredith_bill@earthlink.net Wed Dec 15 06:37:04 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: meredith_bill@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 68967 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 14:37:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 14:37:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pop-a065c32.pas.sa.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.247) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 14:37:03 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.153.82.194.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.153.82.194]) by pop-a065c32.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1CeaH0-00050J-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 06:37:03 -0800 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.296 [265.5.3]); Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:36:56 -0500 Message-ID: <002f01c4e2b3$86483900$c2529904@JoeyMeredith> To: References: <15c.45caa377.2ef18a1b@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:36:55 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.121.247 From: "Bill Meredith" Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=191212763 X-Yahoo-Profile: meredith_bille Shame there's no money in pig racing. I speak igpa atinla uentlyfla. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 7:37 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV > > In a message dated 12/15/04 1:51:57 AM Central Standard Time, > samblo@cs.com > writes: > > << Have you tried making contact with dead Horses? >> > > No. They tend to be rather inarticulate. > > Chuck the Heretic > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.5.3 - Release Date: 12/14/2004 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.5.3 - Release Date: 12/14/2004 From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Dec 15 08:02:58 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40533 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 16:02:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 16:02:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d22.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.208) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 16:02:54 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.143.3adf5df2 (4560) for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:02:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <143.3adf5df2.2ef1ba20@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:02:40 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.144.208 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/15/04 8:39:25 AM Central Standard Time, meredith_bill@earthlink.net writes: << Shame there's no money in pig racing. >> For some bizarre reason I have a vision of police cars speeding along a track chasing an electric donut. Chuck the Heretic From towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Wed Dec 15 09:28:26 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53999 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 17:28:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 17:28:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web41501.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.93.84) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 17:28:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 38471 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Dec 2004 17:28:25 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=zOTvDBkVibcFHOruVnCu/MaRnZMp1/BNxgSvj7xMtxdfwrokmHsrgnlyf0smC7r13Iu/cJxGXe+KFX99oBr0fbbECrx2GBFC7D9i/NI04bIHtVuSGtRE0sfS4aFWMIzP1A6H7Vmlk3EyClKoEGKdfwO87Vhcg/x4JbjgU2vASdo= ; Message-ID: <20041215172825.38469.qmail@web41501.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [148.177.1.213] by web41501.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:28:25 PST Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:28:25 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <004501c4e260$ea953000$0301010a@versus> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.93.84 From: Towers1209 Reply-To: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar - X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=205723283 X-Yahoo-Profile: traveller1209 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Khristar. =20 Thanks for the reply. =20 I might have been a little abrupt in my initial response to your post. And= I must apologize if it sounded that way. =20 However, my reply was meant to simply to point out that one must be careful= in =93labeling=94 people without any solid proof and simply basing one=92s= strong statement simply based on feelings or initial impressions. =20 I would like to say that I have had my doubts about John Edward and his sho= w when I first saw it. However, after watching more than a few shows and a= lso doing my own investigation, I have come to my own personal conclusion t= hat there might be something to it that =93may be worth considering=94. = =20 =20 Having had my own psychic experiences and a visit or two from my mother a f= ew days before she died and one day quite a few months after, one cannot to= tally dismiss this kind of =91claims=94 (of contact from the other side) by= others. =20 To my mind, a true skeptic may not totally dismiss something, and label it = as fake, simply because the event (too "showy" and smack of a staged show")= and the associated concepts, ideas, and experiences does not fall within o= ne=92s realm of current understanding and personal experience =96 whether i= t is in a laboratory or in personal life. Of course, the issue is always t= he repeatability of the experience. =20 I am a new theosophist and have only read excerpts of HPB=92s writings. (To= my mind, being able to read and understand HPB=92s and other=92s writings = will require more than one lifetime of experience.). And even then, I don= =92t fully believe all of HPB=92s concepts and ideas but am simply open to= the possibility that HPB=92s =93descriptions of her approximations of =91r= eality=92 =93 may be true. =20 That is to say, that I do not totally accept the writings of HPB=92s, CWL, = Ramacharaka, etc, =93as gospel truths or the complete and total description= of the ultimate reality=94 by which each and everyone=92s experiences and = claims must be measured against. I see these writings as =93their view of = things according to their experience that is worth looking into.=94 =20 I suggest that one look at these claims and events of the paranormal not wi= th =93indifference=94 (as you have mentioned on your email) but with an =93= open and truly critical mind=94. =20 I am also aware of the criticisms, especially of CSICOP (http://www.csicop.= org/si/2001-11/i-files.html.) I simply did not add it to my list of links = in my response to you, since I had the thinking that you are much too much = aware of all the negativc criticisms and you might not be aware of the othe= r side of it. To my mind, CSICOP=92s point of view (which, of course is al= ways worth looking into) is rather on the negative extreme. =20 And "that" in a nutshell why I replied to your post. I also appreciate y= our reply and explaining your point of view on the matter. =20 That=92s all for now and this will be my last post on the topic. =20 =20 Loreto krishtar wrote:=20 Hi Loreto Well, after reading not so many theosophical books, from CWL to HPB and alw= ays trying to put into practise what they claim and experienced, visiting p= sychic men and women and challenging my natural tendency for a healthy skep= tcism, watching the programs of John Edwards ( I thought he was English, so= rry for the mistake) it became clear to me that he is kinda trickster.( TO = ME ) What he does is a show, because a true psychic doesn=B4t expose himself as = he does and would not even charge about U$500 for a private s=E9ance... If he is a serious person, I don=B4t know yet, I am still making my researc= hes, so my opinion is not conclusive. If we pay more atention to the explanations on the after-death states in bo= oks from HPB, Yogi Ramach=E1raka, CWL, Mahatma Letters to AP Sinnet and oth= ers, what I conclude is, if he were really contacting the "souls in heaven = " as he claims, most of them would be a great amount of Kamarupas and Eleme= ntals. The description he gives alive is too elementary, looks like the first book= s on spiritualism at the times of Colonel Olcott. But if you watch the programs with indifference, you can see clearly that s= omething not genuine happens... Although I believe in the communication between different planes of existen= ce, what Edwards is showing is just his show Watch out for Cold Reading/John Edwards in the net and you=B4ll see what I = am talking about.=20 The link http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-11/i-files.html that Bart sent is al= so interesting... Well they=B4re just my views... Regards Krishtar >>krishtar wrote: >>Friends >>I got astonished by the TV show in which the english pseudo-psychic John = Edwards >> claims and ( broadcasts ) his " contacts" with the Dead relatives form h= is audience...=20 >Pseudo-psychic? How do you know? Any proof? >Besides, John Edwards is not English, he is an American from LonggEyeland = (that's=20 >the usual local pronunciation of Long Island by the locals. Tell them that= , and they will=20 >respond with, "Really? Nooo. I don't say it that way. I say 'Long Island' = ") >>The men are promulgating the same teachings and POV=B4s from the kardecis= t=20 >>spiritists...but using trickery to atract the attention. >Trickery? Again, how do you know? Any proof? >The reason I am asking this is not to attack you. But simply asking for pr= oof.=20 >For a University of Arizona study by Dr. Gary Schwartz on the so-called ps= ychics, >Including John Edwards, please see http://www.openmindsciences.com/. John= =20 >Edwards had one of the highest hit percentage among those tested.=20 >Some links that has reviews on the book and John Edwards are the ff:=20 >http://www.johnedwardfriends.org/links/links-schwartz.shtml >http://www.openmindsciences.com/hbo-exp.htm >Loreto =20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Wed Dec 15 14:13:01 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20032 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 22:13:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 22:13:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.118) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 22:13:01 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:13:00 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV14.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 22:12:35 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "JOYCE SMITH" , "Juan Schoch" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:12:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:12:35 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Dec 2004 22:13:00.0940 (UTC) FILETIME=[3D77ACC0:01C4E2F3] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.118 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: Explaining God? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One thing has always bothered me, and that is the definitions and names and other restrictions we place upon the ultimate deity we can imagine only. HPB (of Theosophy fame) once talked about this in the Introduction to "Isis Unveiled." The Hindus talk about "God" as "Neti, neti" (nothing, nothing), and many mystics of all kinds think it is more reverent to speak little or none about the deity rather than try to hold Him in a religious "bottle" like a Genii. Zen "nothingness" (shunyata) also portrays this concept in their own version of Buddhism. I am in agreement with this movement, no matter how much I have said in the past (and no matter how bloody Islam's past, present, or future---those understand nothing of Allah's love for mankind). And now I feel that the simple "tawhid" (monotheism) of Islam is the best way to know the deity. In other words "There is no god but God" (la ilaha il'Allah) is the perfect way to attack this conundrum. Regardless of how Muslims act in view of this Great Truth, most of it due to the battlefields of the Middle-East throughout the centuries as civilization developes, Muhammad was truly given a Great Revelation when he found that "There is no god but God." Now, from a purely human, even scientific, viewpoint, there may be aliens or "gods" out in space, may even be UFOs, or "the Borg" (ah, those jokes were atrocious! LOL), but they can never be the deity Who is "the Beneficent and the Merciful." Muhammad wrote the Qur'an in his day for his people who were completely corrupt, and even killed baby daughters because they wanted sons only, but what the message of the "Qur'an is, is that we must be in gratitude to the One from Whom we sprang, however that was. In other words, as succinctly put in the beginning and end of Ian Dallas's book, The Book of Strangers," "La ilaha il'Allah." "Salaam Alaikum," (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "La ilaha il'Allah!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Wed Dec 15 14:26:24 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69717 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 22:26:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 22:26:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.net4india.com) (202.71.129.73) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 22:26:23 -0000 Received: from [61.1.107.191] (helo=k1) by smtp.net4india.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1Cehet-00037u-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 04:00:12 +0530 Message-ID: <005001c4e2f5$11728800$bf6b013d@k1> To: Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 03:55:32 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.71.129.73 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Thought Forms available online at AnandGholap.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: www_anandgholap_net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thought Forms and following books are recently added at www.AnandGholap.net A new page is created which would show latest addition by date. It's URL is http://www.anandgholap.net/Datewise_Additions_To_Books.htm Man and His Bodies Riddle of Life Revelation, Inspiration, Observation Life After Death Liberation or Salvation Pain - It's Meaning and Use Karma Reincarnation [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Dec 15 15:18:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 46884 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 23:18:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 23:18:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.80) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 23:18:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 35167 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Dec 2004 23:18:30 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Vjn+og+hITIvX/4LrUcQX1l3w9CzZ8c371nB532DGss/1emednFuQO6YPe/3wEQwT3nlVq0WDWasf/xFWwJhL0BuC9YvcnPA9oUZLgP6wZwrMlqB7plEg9/V7Ze9BdY/kdjYSloYF7fzYbJTaxyBVBuphyfBSR/LHxNFlxPwIXM= ; Message-ID: <20041215231830.35165.qmail@web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:18:30 PST Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:18:30 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.80 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Explaining God? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But didnt Mohammed mean "there is no god (other gods) but God" Didn't his religion change the ruling tribes of Koresh (forgive spelling) from pantheism to monotheism. Nothingness as referred to, could mean NO THING NESS Andrew Smith wrote: One thing has always bothered me, and that is the definitions and names and other restrictions we place upon the ultimate deity we can imagine only. HPB (of Theosophy fame) once talked about this in the Introduction to "Isis Unveiled." The Hindus talk about "God" as "Neti, neti" (nothing, nothing), and many mystics of all kinds think it is more reverent to speak little or none about the deity rather than try to hold Him in a religious "bottle" like a Genii. Zen "nothingness" (shunyata) also portrays this concept in their own version of Buddhism. I am in agreement with this movement, no matter how much I have said in the past (and no matter how bloody Islam's past, present, or future---those understand nothing of Allah's love for mankind). And now I feel that the simple "tawhid" (monotheism) of Islam is the best way to know the deity. In other words "There is no god but God" (la ilaha il'Allah) is the perfect way to attack this conundrum. Regardless of how Muslims act in view of this Great Truth, most of it due to the battlefields of the Middle-East throughout the centuries as civilization developes, Muhammad was truly given a Great Revelation when he found that "There is no god but God." Now, from a purely human, even scientific, viewpoint, there may be aliens or "gods" out in space, may even be UFOs, or "the Borg" (ah, those jokes were atrocious! LOL), but they can never be the deity Who is "the Beneficent and the Merciful." Muhammad wrote the Qur'an in his day for his people who were completely corrupt, and even killed baby daughters because they wanted sons only, but what the message of the "Qur'an is, is that we must be in gratitude to the One from Whom we sprang, however that was. In other words, as succinctly put in the beginning and end of Ian Dallas's book, The Book of Strangers," "La ilaha il'Allah." "Salaam Alaikum," (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "La ilaha il'Allah!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Dec 15 16:07:32 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33887 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 00:07:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 00:07:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 00:07:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 00:06:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.129] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 00:06:55 -0000 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:06:54 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1f9.3558979.2ef11838@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 398 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.39 From: "silva_cass" X-Originating-IP: 211.28.163.14 Subject: Re: Theos-World THE QURAN X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Dear Fred You will go to hell!! --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@a... wrote: > In a message dated 12/14/04 6:51:28 PM Central Standard Time, > silva_cass@y... writes: > > << > I meant who wrote the Quran? > >> > > Fred the Minor Angel of the 34th Chorus, 75th row, seat 15. > > He put on a Gabriel mask and played a really nasty prank on poor Mohammed. > > Chuck the Heretic From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Dec 15 16:08:44 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61193 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 00:08:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 00:08:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 00:08:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n20.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 00:08:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.154] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 00:08:33 -0000 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:08:31 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <19a.2cde0420.2ef11746@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 396 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.49 From: "silva_cass" X-Originating-IP: 211.28.163.14 Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Nietzsche X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Is that what Gabriel told you? --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@a... wrote: > In a message dated 12/14/04 4:39:27 PM Central Standard Time, > aupanishad@m... writes: > > << Out of life's school of war: What does not destroy me, makes me stronger >> > > > Out of life's reform school: What does not destroy me makes me wish I had > managed to avoid it. > > Chuck the Heretic From aupanishad@msn.com Wed Dec 15 16:26:40 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 32743 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 00:26:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 00:26:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 00:26:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 00:26:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.176] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 00:26:30 -0000 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:26:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041215231830.35165.qmail@web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3187 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.38 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Re: Theos-World Explaining God? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > But didnt Mohammed mean "there is no god (other gods) but God" Didn't his religion change the ruling tribes of Koresh (forgive spelling) from pantheism to monotheism. Nothingness as referred to, could mean NO THING NESS > > Andrew Smith wrote: > One thing has always bothered me, and that is the definitions and names and other restrictions we place upon the ultimate deity we can imagine only. HPB (of Theosophy fame) once talked about this in the Introduction to "Isis Unveiled." The Hindus talk about "God" as "Neti, neti" (nothing, nothing), and many mystics of all kinds think it is more reverent to speak little or none about the deity rather than try to hold Him in a religious "bottle" like a Genii. Zen "nothingness" (shunyata) also portrays this concept in their own version of Buddhism. I am in agreement with this movement, no matter how much I have said in the past (and no matter how bloody Islam's past, present, or future---those understand nothing of Allah's love for mankind). And now I feel that the simple "tawhid" (monotheism) of Islam is the best way to know the deity. In other words "There is no god but God" (la ilaha il'Allah) is the perfect way to attack this conundrum. Regardless of how Muslims act in view of this > Great Truth, most of it due to the battlefields of the Middle-East throughout the centuries as civilization developes, Muhammad was truly given a Great Revelation when he found that "There is no god but God." > > Now, from a purely human, even scientific, viewpoint, there may be aliens or "gods" out in space, may even be UFOs, or "the Borg" (ah, those jokes were atrocious! LOL), but they can never be the deity Who is "the Beneficent and the Merciful." Muhammad wrote the Qur'an in his day for his people who were completely corrupt, and even killed baby daughters because they wanted sons only, but what the message of the "Qur'an is, is that we must be in gratitude to the One from Whom we sprang, however that was. In other words, as succinctly put in the beginning and end of Ian Dallas's book, The Book of Strangers," "La ilaha il'Allah." > > > "Salaam Alaikum," > (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali > "La ilaha il'Allah!" > Cass, I don't mean to mince words. The basis of all this is the "tawhid" (Absolute Monotheism) of Allah. The "jahilyah" (Pagan Arabs) were polytheisits, as were, and I can verify this, the Jews, and certainly the Christians (e.g. trinity, etc.) Even if Muhammad did not have a revelation (which I believe he DID), he was a genius for drawing pure tawhid out of the morass that Judaism and Christianity had created. "La ilaha il'Allah" is the perfect answer to all of this mess we call religion today. The CruSades (cf. the Marquis de Sade) are not over yet---just ask George Bush. As far as the "Nothingness" of the divine, you will find in any number of books on mysticism where pure faith is to know God as the cavity of the heart where "La ilalha il'Allah" is the only thing that can fill it. Read, for instance Meister Eckhart, St. Augustine,, Mircea Eliade, etc. From aupanishad@msn.com Wed Dec 15 17:15:04 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 81039 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 01:15:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 01:15:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.173.60) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 01:15:03 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:15:02 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV30.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 01:14:18 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "JOYCE SMITH" , "Juan Schoch" , "Ldapguru" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:14:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:14:19 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Dec 2004 01:15:02.0747 (UTC) FILETIME=[AB5F2AB0:01C4E30C] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.173.60 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: Happy Holidays X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Salaam Alaikum," (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "La ilaha il'Allah!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Dec 15 17:24:09 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 93971 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 01:24:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 01:24:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.72) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 01:24:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 32165 invoked by uid 60001); 16 Dec 2004 01:24:08 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=mh3nDw7DTiqRp6WMVFDVwRPBIxs3+JxhgKv43WoPPyIdab86YvPrvbsPkoVZIuIILa9GCnrCU/p0IZwocm86jhj7odi5O7ygJNWjHQ8RM6l2I6vG/+9hikdtL48XstGjP2iBUWW7CBlNMvi27LQAtyF7cmDPdEmy1y73HdqmMOM= ; Message-ID: <20041216012408.32163.qmail@web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:24:08 PST Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:24:08 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.72 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Explaining God? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Andrew Yes, I am familiar with Mohammed's story. The "jahilyah" (Pagan Arabs) were polytheisits, as were, and I can verify this, the Jews, and certainly the Christians (e.g. trinity, etc.) C: Mohammed, before his revelations also believed in Abraham, Moses, Jesus and was a practising jahilyah. He was known in the community as the Righteous Man, the Just Man. Whether he was visited by Gabriel or it was his own Gabriel, he lived in a harsh barren land, where Arabs migrated from site to site, and depended on their tribe to protect them from other tribes. Their world was violent, turmoil and despair. The social structure was the tribe. The religion was tribal - polythiest - Even though he had a relatively comfortable life as a Caravan Manager. He could see that the old values were breaking down and needed to be replaced with a new set of ideas. M's vision was that his followers should forsake the gods of their ancestry and embrace only Allah - the high god of the pantheist, and that loyalty should be to that God alone. A community bound together by an ideal - related in faith and agreement - that anyone could join. This was revolutionary at the time and as you know threatened the ruling classes. So I agree with you when you say "he was a genius for drawing pure tawhid out of the morass that Judaism and Christianity had created." Although I think that is a bit harsh, as Christianity was not pantheistic, in terms of hundreds of gods, but believed in a Trinity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (although I have never understood what this meant). This again was a bastardisation of what Jesus taught and was used by the Christian clerics as a means of control and power over the masses. The Quran came to Mohammed in the form of poetry, and all poets were honoured in their community at that time. Mystical experiences were accepted as the norm then, and as Allah had protected him in the Cave, the followers believed he was the messenger of Allah. St. Augustine,, Mircea Eliade and Mohammed were mystical. I have no trouble accepting that Mohammed's revelations were of a mystical nature. What I do have trouble with is that his revelations seemed to co-incide with his politics. He knew that the threat of Kerash had to be challenged by armed conflict. To defend their beliefs in battle. At this time he had a revelation JI-HAD. A revelation justifying his followers to fight. To struggle for the sake of God whether that be financial or violent. At that time the Muslims in Medina were fighting for survival - exiled, unemployed, poor date farmers and as all land was spoken for JIHAD provided them with the moral justification to fight for the right (in fact it was an obligation) to survive. To engage in defensive warfare. To defend by attacking. And this Mohammed did at the Battle of Bada. After 20 years of battles, he and his followers knew they had to go to Mecca to uproot the old religion by destroying the 365 idols in the BADR. This they did, but unlike the jahilyah, he ordered his followers to show mercy, to show forgiveness, "but forgiveness is better" unlike the jahilyah who would slaughter all those who survived the battle. In this way, Islam grew, with new converts and spread from North Africa to India. In 1400 years Islam grew to 1.5 billion followers. I agree with you that the crusades are not over yet. When people like BIN LADEN, HUSSEIN,HOMENI, distort the message even further, by using JIHAD to inflict retribution on the innocent for their personal power struggles. They quote from the Quran, but forget to quote, the whole message of Mohammed. Do not turn the other cheek, you have a right to fight to defend your faith, but always remember FORGIVENESS IS BETTER. "HE WHO SHALL KILL A HUMAN BEING, SHALL BE IF HE KILLETH ALL OF MANKIND" These new arabs have again distorted his message which was mean to UNIFY. Mohammed was not concerned with the rest of the world, they could have their own religions. JIHAD has been misinterpreted and is basically the same as the Christians practiced, 'DEFENDERS OF THE FAITH" and killed and slaughtered millions in divine righteousness. If JIHAD is a universal truth, then sadly it applies to all people who practice religion, so you can't blame the Americans for defending their faith when they are doing the same things that the Arabs are doing. There is no moral justification for the trouble in Irak, but then is there a justification to help those Arabs who were being slaughtered daily by Hussein, one of them? Do we just stand by and let these despots rule the world through evil? Do we turn away and say, "not my business, let them kill each other"? Are we there just to exploit their oil? What will happen when the oil is no longer a necessity in the west. My ex spent 7 years in the Middle East, I know of the hypocricy and the goodness within the followers. Cass "Andrew W. Smith" wrote: --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > But didnt Mohammed mean "there is no god (other gods) but God" Didn't his religion change the ruling tribes of Koresh (forgive spelling) from pantheism to monotheism. Nothingness as referred to, could mean NO THING NESS > > Andrew Smith wrote: > One thing has always bothered me, and that is the definitions and names and other restrictions we place upon the ultimate deity we can imagine only. HPB (of Theosophy fame) once talked about this in the Introduction to "Isis Unveiled." The Hindus talk about "God" as "Neti, neti" (nothing, nothing), and many mystics of all kinds think it is more reverent to speak little or none about the deity rather than try to hold Him in a religious "bottle" like a Genii. Zen "nothingness" (shunyata) also portrays this concept in their own version of Buddhism. I am in agreement with this movement, no matter how much I have said in the past (and no matter how bloody Islam's past, present, or future---those understand nothing of Allah's love for mankind). And now I feel that the simple "tawhid" (monotheism) of Islam is the best way to know the deity. In other words "There is no god but God" (la ilaha il'Allah) is the perfect way to attack this conundrum. Regardless of how Muslims act in view of this > Great Truth, most of it due to the battlefields of the Middle-East throughout the centuries as civilization developes, Muhammad was truly given a Great Revelation when he found that "There is no god but God." > > Now, from a purely human, even scientific, viewpoint, there may be aliens or "gods" out in space, may even be UFOs, or "the Borg" (ah, those jokes were atrocious! LOL), but they can never be the deity Who is "the Beneficent and the Merciful." Muhammad wrote the Qur'an in his day for his people who were completely corrupt, and even killed baby daughters because they wanted sons only, but what the message of the "Qur'an is, is that we must be in gratitude to the One from Whom we sprang, however that was. In other words, as succinctly put in the beginning and end of Ian Dallas's book, The Book of Strangers," "La ilaha il'Allah." > > > "Salaam Alaikum," > (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali > "La ilaha il'Allah!" > Cass, I don't mean to mince words. The basis of all this is the "tawhid" (Absolute Monotheism) of Allah. The "jahilyah" (Pagan Arabs) were polytheisits, as were, and I can verify this, the Jews, and certainly the Christians (e.g. trinity, etc.) Even if Muhammad did not have a revelation (which I believe he DID),"La ilaha il'Allah" is the perfect answer to all of this mess we call religion today. The CruSades (cf. the Marquis de Sade) are not over yet---just ask George Bush. As far as the "Nothingness" of the divine, you will find in any number of books on mysticism where pure faith is to know God as the cavity of the heart where "La ilalha il'Allah" is the only thing that can fill it. Read, for instance Meister Eckhart, St. Augustine,, Mircea Eliade, etc. Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Wed Dec 15 21:02:05 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 80042 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 05:02:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 05:02:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.110) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 05:02:04 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:02:02 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV6.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:01:38 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "JOYCE SMITH" , "Juan Schoch" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 23:01:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 23:01:38 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Dec 2004 05:02:02.0270 (UTC) FILETIME=[613D73E0:01C4E32C] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.110 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: Westerm Islam X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have formed a group which is for those interested in a Western (Euro-Amercan) form of Islam which I gave a name called called "Interstitial-Islam" in order to try to bring us closer to "La ilaha il'Allah" rather than try to require Western Islam in mandatory prayers (Friday prayer would remain), strange clothes, hijabs,and other paraphernalia. This will be a spiritual, not physical movement, that will allow anyone to chant "La ilaha il'Allah" all day with no ourward conflict. Thus is like Japanese japa (or repetition of a Buddha's name, or even a Sufu dkir.) I hope that some will come to see what this new relogion is all about, and I would like you to advertise it for me. There will be no sects or outward fighting, nor any jihad except the "jihad of the nafs". Those who wish to keep their Easteern garb are welcome to, but more impotant is to, as Paul said about 'pray without ceasing.' we Muslims must remember our Beneficent and Merciful Lord. The object will to become One with the One Supreme Lord of the universe for His rewards, and not to become absorbred in Him. This would give a new light to the Qir'an, and bring us closer to the Prophet (PBUH).If any are interested, please send me your houghts. "Salaam Alaikum," (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "La ilaha il'Allah!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 02:11:52 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 19900 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 10:11:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 10:11:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.37) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 10:11:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 10:10:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.121] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 10:10:51 -0000 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:10:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2396 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.37 From: "christinaleestemaker" X-Originating-IP: 83.82.4.22 Subject: Re: Projection of Astral Body - IV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162317756 X-Yahoo-Profile: christinaleestemaker --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Kamal Singh Rajput"=20 wrote: > PROJECTION OF ASTRAL BODY =96 IV >=20 > One fine morning, my eldest daughter Alka woke up=20 very much=20 > terrified. She told me how she saw her self standing away from her=20 body. My=20 > wife was equally worried. This was Alka's first out of body=20 experience. I=20 > had never told her about astral body and its projection. The=20 situation=20 > demanded that I explain her about the existence of astral body and=20 its=20 > projection. Alka calmed down. >=20 > Due to chronic illness, Alka had become quite=20 weak. She=20 > complained to me that when she goes to sleep; her astral body gets=20 ejected=20 > automatically. During this state, she is able to witness every=20 activity=20 > going around. She calls the members of the family but no one hears.=20 > "Whenever I want to enter my physical body; I am to keep on trying=20 for very=20 > long time and I get very much tired." She told. She also said that=20 whenever=20 > I used to call her; her astral body quickly enters the physical. >=20 > We picked up the clue. Whenever, Alka used to go=20 to sleep=20 > during the day; I used to call her every 15 minutes or so. The=20 problem of=20 > difficult entry of the astral to the physical was solved. >=20 > I was in a subconscious state in my bed at=20 night. I was=20 > in a mosquito net. Room light was on. Suddenly, I saw a sudden=20 increase in=20 > the intensity of light in the room. Alka in her astral body was=20 standing=20 > beside my bed. She appeared like a white angel glowing with light.=20 Her=20 > astral body appeared to consist of glowing mist or dense steam.=20 Alka kissed=20 > me and I kissed her and I asked her, " Let us go together." And we=20 went=20 > together in our astral bodies. Afterwards, I slipped into deep=20 sleep. >=20 > Next morning, I asked Alka whether she came to my=20 room in=20 > astral form. She abruptly exclaimed, " HAN PAPA MAIN TO PAKDI=20 GAI." (YES=20 > PAPA I HAVE BEEN CAUGHT). >=20 >=20 > ...Kamal-S-Rajput.. Hallo , I think people needs a total Bach blossem therapy to find back their=20 equilibrium. Greetings Christina=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Microsoft's festive bonanza! Buy a branded Home PC.=20 > http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/festivebonanza/ Win a fabulous=20 holiday! From dalval14@e... Thu Dec 16 05:39:15 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@e... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 96492 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 13:39:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 13:39:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 13:39:14 -0000 Received: from [209.179.146.206] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CevpY-0006a7-4x; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:38:23 -0500 To: Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:37:54 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c4e374$7dbc7230$ce92b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec798fd5441a0fbf42045ffcdf0b54354489350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.146.206 Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE: Love and assistance are the LAWS of NATURE X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 14 2004 RE: Yours of Dec 2nd, Love (and assistance ) are the LAWS of NATURE Sorry delay in answering. Just returned from a week in hospital. To be brief: The whole pilgrimage of man as a "Life-Atom Of Individual Consciousness" that NEVER DIES has to be grasped. This is the basis for BROTHERHOOD.=20=20 Also the basis for the statement that the MONADS (and this means all the beings in the entire Universe) are on this common "pilgrimage".=20 Remember, our Science has already taken this as their basis:=20 1 The "atom" is perpetually in motion.=20=20 2 By its inherent properties it is of one kind of physical nature or another, but that nature only changes if the basic inner nature and composition of the "atom" is altered. Then Science says, you get a new "substance." This is how alloys of metals are made, or how drugs and chemicals are produced.=20=20 3 This has also a direct bearing on Karma in humans, as our feelings, desires, mind-thoughts and finally will, make those changes in our own mora= l and also in our physical nature. This, in turn, gives rise to the concept of the=20 (1) Higher (Divine Individual) Nature and Mind, and=20 (2) the Lower or selfish, personal and evil mind (and its actions). 3 It (the "atom"), is not "physical," but is entirely made up of energies, and=20 4 of intelligent, well-regulated and lawful forces.=20=20 5 It is well to remember that NATURE, or (the Divine Universe as a whole) has organized these matters for billions of years.=20=20 Our Science is only re-discovering that which Nature (acting as DEITY which is the ONE SPIRIT) has established.=20=20 We may say here that this very intricate and cooperative process she had installed, is always life-supporting for everyone.=20=20 If by chance or choice anyone violates her laws she instantly takes note an= d reacts to teach the interloper that this is wrong and harmful. There fore in calling this vast self administering system KARMA we are only acknowledging=20 6 So, every being and every "form" is made up of billions of such "life-atoms" all cooperating and working together to construct the forms we are familiar with. Nature does this for us. We have to learn how this is done, if we desire to intelligently progress. This need makes of each one of us "Monads" immortals and the pilgrimage we are involved in is a very long one, life after life. 7 Behind the physical, logically, there has to be an intelligent and well coordinated electro-magnetic "form."=20 8 On this energy-life form, the "atoms, molecules, etc.," arrange themselves to form the energic basis for the physical structures (and the processes of life - breathing, blood circulation, muscular control through nerve impulse, brain as coordinator for the body, eating and excretion, etc.) we are familiar with: -- organs, veins, arteries, nerves, heart, brain, bones, muscles, etc. The human body, as an example, is a marvelous organism, and it is a good analogy as it illustrates the forces and properties of a small "universe" alive and always corresponding to, and interacting in itself and with other= s -- like the GREAT UNIVERSE which is outside of it.=20 9 This may seem to be difficult to grasp. But it is a fact, and it works in the MORAL as well as the physical world.=20 The "moral" world is the one in which we choose our thoughts, feelings, and acts. It is here and now, that we are all struggling to understand our ATTITUDE towards others -- whether they be humans of other beings, There is always a broad division between friendship, cooperation and brotherhood and the opposite, which is selfishness and isolationist.=20 This has to be taken as a basis for understanding the difference between virtue and vice, and thus, the difference between the Higher and Lower Mind= . That is, between Mind-MANAS united to BUDDHI - or the wisdom-Mind, or MANAS united to Kama - or the thousands of unbridled desires -- and make up our ordinary embodied mind which is mainly FOLLY. As such it "dies" with the dissolution of the body, only the good and the virtuous impulses and deeds survive as part of the REAL, PERMANENT IMMORTAL MAN.).=20 In the human sphere we have to learn to control the unregulated desires, an= d live a regulated spiritual life.=20=20 If anyone desires to test this proposition they need only try to mentally develop any one of their desires to the utmost. See if it can survive ALONE, in a universe that becomes (under KARMA) non-cooperative and obstructs it.=20 Let us realize that the cooperative and interactive will of the UNIVERSE is always active to support us and all other beings. It is we, who cause by our selfishness, all the evils and pains that beset us with suffering. But they are not responsible for that. We are. And if we suffer from some others' acting , it is our own Karma returning to us.=20=20 The evil we may do, is always purged, adjusted and mitigated under Karma through successive lives. The process is always painful as we are made to suffer the same situations we may have caused to others to endure unfairly.= =20 The whole point of decision is the morality of our choices. If it is fair and just and helpful, we can say "good Karma" is performed. If it is selfish and careless of the rights and privileges of others (un-brotherly) it is "bad Karma," and eventually, we suffer.=20 There is no separateness between us and "others." If GOD is universal, the= n IT has decreed that other religions and peoples have as much right to live peacefully as we do. No man, or priest has the right to say otherwise, because that would make GOD less than universal, and less than honest and fair. Many people have been taught, that prayers for forgiveness may seemingly be answered (or not, =3D as GOD wills). But consider that if GOD is just, a= nd the UNIVERSE is TRUE and fair to all, IT cannot favor us, and neglect those whom we have wronged.=20 Whenever we do evil or harm, we know it is so. (Otherwise, why should we ask for forgiveness? Why should we ask GOD to shield us from the evil consequences that we already know will come back to us? Why do we ask GOD to be unfair and unjust to others (and also to ourselves) ? Why do we not make restitution to those we have harmed? )=20 The WILL (also the power to IMAGINE) is a colorless force directed by the MIND. Mind is influenced by selfish desires (KAMA) or by altruism and nobility. We, the immortal, Divine MONAD (HIGHER MIND) are the Chooser and our progress goes up or down the ladder of progress according to our moral choices.=20 That is the basis for THEOSOPHICAL philosophy and doctrines, and it will b= e found to be a true and universal basis logically for all such questions. = =20 Please see Notes below. Dal ----------------------------------------- Dallas =20 -----Original Message----- From: cassilva48 Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:51 PM To:=20 Subject: [bn-study] RE: Love Dear Dallas Thanks again for your help. Could you please clarify that what I have said is in agreement with your understanding? C LOWER IMAGINATION: By this I meant Fancy The mind (working through lower manas) will construct an image (subjective) as if it were a tangible thing. Imagination connected with fancy or desire. The desire and the image and the mind are all mixed together, and the result, instead of being a training of the image making power, is to bring on a decay of that power and results only in a continual flying to the image of the thing desired. DTB: =93Imagination. In Occultism this is not to be confused with fancy. =20 C HIGHER IMAGINATION: Imagination under control of the will (working through Higher Manas) has to be able to make a picture of anything at any time, And if this power has not been trained the possession of other sorts of knowledge will not enable one to perform certain classes of occult phenomenon. ( DTB It does so in obedience to an irresistible force - the Will: Will in accordance with divine law. It is concrete going and returning in obedience to this force, bringing little with it from intermediate spheres other than that for which it is seeking.) =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB Moral condition of desire and use of consequent will-power determines either the (1) Lower (selfish and untrue, vicious) or (2) Higher (generous and true, virtuous) use of imagination. FANCY is a desire that is speculative, selfish, usually entertaining, time-wasting and unreal. Hence pertains to the Lower. IMAGINATION is colorless and may be used by Higher (virtuous) or Lower (vicious) MIND -- and be motivated by vice or virtue. The results (Karma) will be either good for many, or harmful for many and/or for few; but in this last case, they will always be harmful to the individual who generates them with a vicious or selfish objective..=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C: I believed this to be the method, although I could have misinterpreted it. The imagination (Higher imagination under control of Higher Manas) make= s a picture of each word (or thing) of each letter of every line in every letter and having made that picture it is held there by the will and the imagination acting together for such a length of time as is needed to permit the carbons or other substances to be strained down through this matrix and appear in another location. Sending messages by words which the receiver is to hear is done by making an image of the person who is the recipient is to be made and held in place - you have to become a camera. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB This method of precipitation can be used by either Higher or Lower MIND and DESIRE. Motive determines all effects, and Karma. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Unless the man's thought and motive are pure, he is incapable of using the true will,=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB NO -- "Will" is colorless. It is the MOTIVE that determines the Karma. (see above) . One has to know KARMA in full to make will-actions pure and generous for all. Without such divine knowledge and pure motive all will-actions are selfish and faulty. The practice of BROTHERHOOD is enjoined by THEOSOPHY for this reason. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C: and therefore incapable of direct contact with Higher Imagination? =20 KARMA: Karma is not a doctrine of an eye for an eye. It is a doctrine of learning. If you think, act, or desire harm or happiness towards others, it is returned to you. If you harm someone, then to understand the harm you caused you need to experience it for yourself. In that way you, are knowledgeable, and if you are open and accepting of it =96 by not regenerating or retaliating against it, and don=92t want to feel that pain again, you will learn from the experience and the karma is harmonized between cause and effect. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB It is so foolish to deliberately do wrong things, knowing that eventually we will have to be the sufferers. Further, our Higher Self through the Voice of Conscience (Buddhi-Manas) warns us -- DO WE LISTEN ? But as reincarnation is rarely taken into account (by the foolish Lower Mind) , many think they can hide their wrong-doing and reap stealthy, ill-gotten profits from deceits of all kinds. Everything revolves around the matter of our decisions - it is the MORAL FACTOR. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB: There is the Karma of merit and the Karma of demerit. Karma neither punishes nor rewards, it is simply the one Universal LAW which guides unerringly, and, so to say, blindly, all other laws productive of certain effects along the grooves of their respective causations.=20 When Buddhism teaches that =93Karma is that moral kernel (of any being) whi= ch alone survives death and continues in transmigration" or, reincarnation, it simply means that there remains nought after each Personality but the cause= s produced by it; causes which are undying, i.e., which cannot be eliminated from the Universe until replaced by their legitimate effects, and wiped out by them, so to speak, and such causes=97unless compensated during the life = of the person who produced them with adequate effects, will follow the reincarnating Ego, and reach it in its subsequent reincarnation until a harmony between effects and causes is fully reestablished.=20 C Yes if we are energy, is it SUCH A LEAP OF FAITH, to think that our mental thoughts are made up of energy, and if you can accept that, then you should be able to accept that like attracts like, and if you have a thought that corresponds with the thinking of others in the universe, wont that energy attract itself to like. If you don't have a corresponding attitude then the thought will not be attracted to you.=20=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB LEAP OF FAITH ? The whole of our Science is based on energy. From the most minute of energies, to the electron, to the ion, to the atom, molecule, cell, etc., -- everything is electricity and magnetism, always, and ever in perpetual motion. No "leap of faith" =3D FACT. To recognize KARMA and Nature's exactitude is for us an effort. But then logic demands exactly that, as the UNIVERSE continues, as it alway= s has in the past.=20 It is the false idea of "forgiveness" that has blurred understanding. Of universal LAW.=20=20 Nature (GOD) has no power to "forgive." It ADJUSTS, and moves on constructively. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=09 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C By this I meant that not only every action we do but every thought we have generates, firstly, a thought form, ( a cause) and every thought has an (an effect) Karma. I was specifically referring to =93copy cat=94 events that occur in the world. If an (evil) act is produced this act is always preceded by an (evil) thought, this thought then manifests itself in the mental plane and attaches itself to people of like thought and reinforces them to again, commit (evil) acts upon others. Likewise if you have a pure humanitarian act (Live Aid concert, eg. )Then this pure thought form attaches itself to thinkers of the same ilk, and a corresponding good effect occurs. DTB: KARMA IS UNIVERSAL LAW =96 it is Brotherhood in action everywhere. = All beings are subject to Karma. It provides life and environment to all. It is universally sensitive and adjusts all wrongs.=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB "Though Form" is another word for an "idea," or a "fancy," or a "desire" -- but have we developed the power to frame these fully and accuracy and without careless faults?=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C There are many reasons, as they are equally involved (as immortal monads) In evolution. Our own body is an "animal." It is informed by a "god-like consciousness" in potential. We share our monads with the animals and thus our Karma affects them. The great gap between us is the nature of the MIND. They are still to acquire it.=20 C KARMA OF ANIMALS "Animals have Karma, or consequence of act, but they have not man's responsibility. While they seem to suffer and enjoy, it is all without any self-consciousness, and hence is less in itself and less lasting in effect. Their karma is bound up with man; and he is the responsible one and will have to bear the responsibility, although they feel the burden directly." WQJ Art II 566=20 "...the effect of Karma upon the animals...(15) the whole of creation waits upon man and groans that he keeps back the enlightenment of all. What happens when...you crush out the life of a common croton bug ? Well, it is destroyed and you forget it. But you brought it to an untimely end, short though its life would have been. Imagine this being done at hundreds and thousands of places...Each of these little creatures had life, and energy; each some degree of intelligence, The sum total of effects of all these deaths of small things must be appreciable. If not, then our doctrines are wrong and there is no wrong in putting our the life of a human being ... [animals] killed for sport..." WQJ Art I 14-5 "The brutes unconsciously are aware of the general human opposition, which in each human being they see focalized." WQJ Letters 87.=20=20 C: I do not understand this concept, if they are unconsciously aware?, if they are unconscious of it how are they aware of it? C: I also do not understand how my karma can affect my animals? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D-=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB The feeling is an electro-magnetic effect. It works on the life-atoms, molecules, etc... Karma (including ours as humans) envelops and includes all beings including animals. Anything we may affect becomes attached by karmic links to us. Nothing is excluded. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C The intellectual potentialities of the two differ as the Sun does from the Glow-worm ? And what is it that creates such a difference, unless man is An animal plus a living god within his physical shell ?" "...(the) animal soul (Nephesh of the Hebrew Kabalist)...the ray which emanates from the Higher Manas or permanent EGO, and is that "principle" which forms the human mind--in animals instinct." Trans. 59 "...man has one "principle" more than the tiniest insect, but because man is a perfected animal, the vehicle of a fully developed monad, self-conscious and deliberately following its own line of progress, whereas in the insect, and even the higher animal, the higher triad of principles is absolutely dormant." Trans. 14-15 The rudiments of hope, patience, faith, fidelity, confidence, etc., are found in the animal kingdom." -- HPB Theosophist 5- p. 223=20 C DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ANIMALS AND MEN "The difference between animals and men is this: the former are ensouled by the "principles" potentially, the latter actually." Key 104. C: So, as we are gods in the becoming, animals are men in the becoming and then gods in the becoming? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB Correct. The immortal "life-atom" or MONAD passes through those various stages of evolution one after the other. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C MAN'S FORM IS AN ANIMAL the "Ego-Sum," necessitates self-consciousness, and an animal can only have direct consciousness, or instinct. C: I find it interesting that HPB refers to direct consciousness in animals as instinct. She also commented that the reason why whales and dolphins beach themselves is because instinctively they are returning to what was once submerged. The dolphins remember when the earth was in a different shape and what is now land was then sea. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB I am not quite sure about that. Do you have an exact reference? Certainly the dolphins and whales have a higher kind of intelligence than fishes, but they are still a part of the animal kingdom. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C "The soul, whose body vehicle is the Astral, ethereo-substantial envelope, could die, and man be still living on earth--i.e., the soul could free itself from and quit the tabernacle for various reasons--such as insanity, spiritual and physical depravity, etc." C: Again, very interesting, as HPB is saying that there are soul-less men who walk the earth, which can explain the evil administered by them. LIGHTING UP OF THE MANAS (MIND) It is only at the (255) mid-point of the 3rd Root-Race that man was endowed with Manas. (18,000,000 years ago). Once united the two and then the three made one; for though the lower animals, from the amoeba to man, received their monads, in which all the higher qualities are potential, all have to remain dormant till each reaches its human form, before which stage manas (mind) has no development in them. In the animals every principle is paralyzed, and in a fetus-like state, save the 2nd (vital) and the 3rd (the astral), and the rudiments of the 4th (Kama, which is desire, instinct) whose intensity and development varies and changes with the species." S D II 254-5 PHYSICAL MAN But for the real SELF, that which emanated its own shadow, or the lower thinking personality, that enacted and pulled the wires during the life of the physical automaton, will have to suffer conjointly with its factotum and alter ego in the next incarnation." Trans. 67. C: By this, I take it HPB means by way of our SKANDAS. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB The Skandhas are defined below: "SKANDHA (Sk.). Lit., =93bundles=94, or groups of attributes; everything finite, inapplicable to the eternal and the absolute. There are five=97esoterically, seven=97attributes in every human living being, which = are known as the Pancha Skandhas.=20 These are=20 (1) form, r=FBpa;=20 (2) perception, vid=E2na; (3) consciousness, sanjn=E2;=20 (4) action, sansk=E2ra;=20 (5) knowledge, vidy=E2na.=20 These unite at the birth of man and constitute his personality. After the maturity of these Skandhas, they begin to separate and weaken, and this is followed by jar=E2-marana, or decrepitude and death." T Glos. Pp. 301-= 2 "SAMSK=C2RA (Sk.). Lit., from Sam and Kr=EE, to improve, refine, impress. I= n Hindu philosophy the term is used to denote the impressions left upon the mind by individual actions or external circumstances, and capable of being developed on any future favourable occasion=97even in a future birth.=20 The Samsk=E2ra denotes, therefore, the germs of propensities and impulses f= rom previous births to be developed in this, or the coming janm=E2s or reincarnations... It is, strictly speaking, a metaphysical term, which in exoteric philosophies is variously defined; e.g., in Nepaul as illusion, in Tibet as notion, and in Ceylon as discrimination. The true meaning is as given above= , and as such is connected with karma and its working. " T Glos. pp. 288-9 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D C: Do animals feel pain?=20=20=20=20=09 YES. All beings feel pain. But not necessarily as we who have MINDS feel it.=20 =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C Isis P 263, =93Plants and vegetation reveal a multitude of forms because o= f their precedent actions=92 they are surrounded by darkness, but are nevertheless endowed with an interior soul, and feel equally pleasure and pain=94 (Manu, book i). C: The reason I enquired about Animals and Karma, is that I lost my 15 year old lab and my 3 month old Chihuahua to poison. They suffered with convulsions and (what I think were hallucinations) for many hours, and finally I had them put to sleep to relieve their pain (neither would have survived the medications to revive them.) I believe, they knew what was happening to them but didn=92t understand why. I also couldn=92t understan= d why these two innocent souls who never harmed anyone or anything would have to die in such a way. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D DTB READ THIS PLEASE Reincarnation of MIND (EGO) in animal bodies ? Briefly: It is impossible in the progressive stream of evolution for the MIND (EGO) , the ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS (or MONAD) of man, to retrogress and reincarnate into an animal body that is not designed to contain a MIND and provide adequate support for such an entity as MIND is. So where does the idea arise? It lies in the ancient teaching about the transfer of life-atoms (skandhas, samskaras) that goes on perpetually in all of nature.=20=20 In other words, the atoms and molecules we receive from food, air, water, and contact with others are temporarily used in our physical bodies and then, when that use is over, they are passed on, and some of those go into the animal forms, others to the plants, and still others to air, water, etc...=20 There is an old aphorism: Once a Man, always a man. ----------------------------------- =09 REINCARNATION OF ANIMALS VERY little has been said on the question whether or not the theory of Reincarnation applies to animals in the same way as to man.=20 Doubtless, if Brahman members well acquainted with Sanscrit works on the general subject were to publish their views, we should at least have a large mass of material for thought and find many clues to the matter in the Hindu theories and allegories. Even Hindu folk-lore would suggest much.=20 Under all popular "superstitions" a large element of truth can be found hidden away when the vulgar notion is examined in the light of the Wisdom-Religion. ... In the same way the folk-lore of such an ancient people as the Hindu deserves scrutiny with the object of discovering the buried truth. If they are possessed of such notions regarding the fate of animals, careful analysis might give valuable suggestion. Looking at the question in the light of Theosophical theories, we see that = a wide distinction exists between man and animals.=20 Man reincarnates as man because he has got to the top of the present scale of evolution. He cannot go back, for Manas is too much developed. He has a Devachan because he is a conscious thinker.=20 Animals cannot have Manas so much developed, and so cannot be self-conscious in the sense that man is. Besides all this, the animal kingdom, being lower, has the impulse still to rise to higher forms. But here we have the distinct statement by the Adepts through H.P.B. that while possibly animals may rise higher in their own kingdom, they cannot in this evolution rise to the human stage, as we have reached the middle or turning-point in the fourth round. On this point H.P.B. has, in the second volume of the SECRET DOCTRINE (Vol., II.) p. 196, a foot note as follows: "In calling the animals "Soulless," it is not depriving the beast, from the humblest to the highest species, of a "soul," but only of a conscious surviving Ego-soul, i.e., that principle which survives after a man and reincarnates in a like man.". The animal has an astral body that survives the physical form for a short period; but its (animal) Monad does not reincarnate in the same, but in a higher species, and has no "Devachan" of course. It has the seeds of all the human principles in itself, but they are latent . Here the distinction above adverted to is made. It is due to the Ego-Soul, that is, to Manas with Buddhi and Atma. Those principles being latent in the animal, and the door to the human kingdom being closed, they may rise to higher species but not to the man stage. Of course also it is not meant that no dog or other animal ever reincarnates as dog, but that the monad has tendency to rise to a higher species, whatever that be, whenever it has passed beyond the necessity for further experience as "dog." Under the position the author assumes it would be natural to suppose that the astral form of the animal did not last long, as she says, and hence that astral appearances or apparitions of animals were not common. Such is the fact. I have heard of a few, but very few, cases where a favorite animal made an apparitional appearance after death, but even the prolific field of spiritualism has not many instances of the kind. And those who have learned about the astral world know that human beings assume in that world the form of animal or other things which they in character most resemble, and that this sort of apparition is not confined to the dead but is more common among the living. It is by such signs that clairvoyants know the very life and thought of the person before them. It was under the operation of this law that Swedenborg saw so many curious things in his time. The objection based on the immense number of animals both alive and dead as calling for a supply of monads in that stage can be met in this way. While it is stated that no more animal monads can enter on the man-stage, it is not said nor inferred that the incoming supply of monads for the animal kingdom has stopped. They may still be coming in from other worlds for evolution among the animals of this globe. There is nothing impossible in it, and it will supply the answer to the question, Where do the new animal monads come from, supposing that all the present ones have exhausted the whole number of higher species possible here? It is quite possible also that the animal monads may be carried on to other members of the earth-chain in advance of man for the purpose of necessary development, and this would lessen the number of their appearances here.=20 For what keeps man here so long is that the power of his thought is so great as to make a Devachan for all lasting some fifteen centuries--with exceptions-- and for a number who desire "heaven" a Devachan of enormous length.=20 The animals, however, being devoid of developed Manas, have no Devachan and must be forced onwards to the next planet in the chain. This would be consistent and useful, as it gives them a chance for development in readiness for the time when the monads of that kingdom shall begin to rise to a new human kingdom. They will have lost nothing, but, on the contrary, will be the gainers. William Brehon PATH, April, 1894 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From samblo@cs.com Thu Dec 16 10:57:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 38473 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 18:57:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 18:57:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yahoogroups.com) (80.202.254.127) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 18:57:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:58:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 80.202.254.127 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have a look at these. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Thu Dec 16 11:03:58 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33456 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 19:03:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 19:03:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 19:03:56 -0000 Received: from versus (unknown [201.11.81.23]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7A65B33EA3 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:03:02 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <007901c4e3a1$9a29ffa0$0301010a@versus> To: Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:01:08 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi John If this is not a virus message...tell me: My Yahoo doesn=B4t allow attachments...what are these pics about? Hope you are well Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: samblo@cs.com=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 4:58 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: Old photos Have a look at these. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 12:31:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 89167 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 20:31:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 20:31:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.50) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 20:31:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n21.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 20:30:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.180] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 20:30:28 -0000 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 20:30:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1083 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.50 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Dr.Santucci on the Neo-Theosophy of Annie Besant & C.W. Leadbeater X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell James A. Santucci, professor of religious studies at California State University (Fullerton) and editor of Theosophical History, has written the following: ". . . Annie Besant, the President of the [Adyar Theosophical] Society from 1907 to her death in 1933, and Charles Webster Leadbeater, arguably the most influential theosophical writer from the early years of the 20th century to his death in 1934, . . . were largely responsible for the introduction of new teachings that were often in total opposition to the Theosophy of [Madame H.P.] Blavatsky and her Masters. These teachings were designated by their opponents as Neo-Theosophy . . . or less often Pseudo-Theosophy. The differences between Theosophy and Neo-Theosophy are too numerous to mention in the context of this paper. . . . An extensive overview [of the differences] is given in . . . Theosophy or Neo-Theosophy by Margaret Thomas. . . . " For more on this subject, see: http://blavatskyarchives.com/thomas/index.htm and http://blavatskyarchives.com/intromaterial5.htm Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 12:36:37 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 43754 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 20:36:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 20:36:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.42) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 20:36:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 20:35:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 20:35:57 -0000 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 20:35:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 331 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.42 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: William Q. Judge and Katherine A. Tingley: Their Close Relationship X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell William Q. Judge and Katherine A. Tingley: An Analysis of the Controversy Surrounding W.Q. Judge's Diary Entries about "Promise" and the Dead H.P.B. including Material on the Close Relationship between Mr. Judge and Mrs. Tingley by H.N. Stokes See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokeswqjktcon.htm Daniel http://hpb.cc From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Thu Dec 16 15:09:52 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24102 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 23:09:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 23:09:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.40) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 23:09:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 23:09:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.156] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 23:09:33 -0000 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:09:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 724 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.40 From: "Anand Gholap" X-Originating-IP: 202.54.51.5 Subject: HPB admitted she misunderstood teaching given by Masters X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: www_anandgholap_net On 4 th January 1887 HPB wrote letter to Col. Olcott after Subba Raw (S.R.) gave opinion about Proem of SD. HPB writes " ........Let S.R. do what he likes. I give him carte blanche. I trust in his wisdom far more than in mine, for I may have misunderstood in many a point both Master and the Old G. (other Adept). They give me facts only and rarely dictate in succession. I am no maker of books you know it........" It not only tells wisdom of SR but also tells that she did misunderstand things which went into her writing. Later when she sent draft of Secrete Doctrine to Subba Raw for correcting mistakes. He went through it and told her that if he was to correct it he would have to write whole book again. From ramadoss@gbronline.com Thu Dec 16 15:48:22 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53067 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 23:48:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 23:48:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.12) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 23:48:14 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.97.12]) by mta2.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 23938618 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:46:53 -0600 CST Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20041216174422.0658cec0@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:48:53 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7A83CE6 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 69.9.90.12 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB admitted she misunderstood teaching given by Masters X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 Everybody makes mistakes or misunderstood. I recall reading somewhere that after Lord Buddha passed on, Shri Shankaracharya was born to correct some of the mistakes that the Lord Buddha made. So, in the final analysis, until we have first hand knowledge, everything we read is second hand and we need to keep an open mind since the real secrets can never be communicated in writing by anybody. mkr At 11:09 PM 12/16/04 +0000, you wrote: >On 4 th January 1887 HPB wrote letter to Col. Olcott after Subba Raw >(S.R.) gave opinion about Proem of SD. >HPB writes " ........Let S.R. do what he likes. I give him carte >blanche. I trust in his wisdom far more than in mine, for I may have >misunderstood in many a point both Master and the Old G. (other >Adept). They give me facts only and rarely dictate in succession. I >am no maker of books you know it........" >It not only tells wisdom of SR but also tells that she did >misunderstand things which went into her writing. >Later when she sent draft of Secrete Doctrine to Subba Raw for >correcting mistakes. He went through it and told her that if he was >to correct it he would have to write whole book again. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.5.4 - Release Date: 12/15/04 From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 17:13:02 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 71295 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 01:13:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 01:13:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.45) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 01:13:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n16.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:13:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.137] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:13:01 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:12:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 977 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.45 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Anand verus Koot Hoomi on Blavatsky's SECRET DOCTRINE?? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Anand verus Koot Hoomi on Blavatsky's SECRET DOCTRINE?? Anand made a sweeping statement that Madame Blavatsky's "writing has many mistakes to the extent that it is not possible to recommend for reading even a single book by her." Not a single book....so even Anand would not recommend Blavatsky's THE SECRET DOCTRINE. Compare his estimation with that of Master Koot Hoomi: "I have also noted, your thoughts about the 'Secret Doctrine.' Be assured that what she [HPB] has not annotated from scientific and other works, we have given or suggested to her. Every mistake or erroneous notion, corrected and explained by her from the works of other theosophists was corrected by me, or under my instruction. It is a more valuable work than its predecessor, an epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and instruction for the earnest student for long years to come. . . ." Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, Series I, p. 47 Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 17:15:05 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73709 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 01:15:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 01:15:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 01:15:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:15:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.165] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:15:00 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:14:59 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3146 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.41 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Anand ignored this posting from me and never answered the specific points X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell The material below I wrote to Anand more than a month ago and I also believe I posted it on this forum. Anand ignored this posting from me and never answered the specific points. ---------------------------------------------- Anand, you write: "HPB admitted that she misunderstood teaching given by the Masters." No she didn't admit that. She wrote: "...I MAY have misunderstood in many a point both Master and Old. G...." She didn't consider herself infallible and she did admit that she might be capable of making mistakes. "I MAY have misunderstood"....does not mean that she did misunderstand. And please consider what HPB wrote later: "Now Tookaram writes me a letter. In it he says that S.R. told him he was ready to help me and correct my S.D. provided I took out from it every reference to the Masters! Now, what's this? Does he mean to say that I should deny the Masters, or that I do not understand Them and garble the facts They give me, or that he, S.R. knows Master's doctrines better than I do?...." But Anand, why RELY on what Subba Row may or may not have said about the S.D. when we have the following assurances from the Master Koot Hoomi: "I have also noted, your thoughts about the 'Secret Doctrine.' Be assured that what she [HPB] has not annotated from scientific and other works, we have given or suggested to her. Every mistake or erroneous notion, corrected and explained by her from the works of other theosophists was corrected by me, or under my instruction. It is a more valuable work than its predecessor, an epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and instruction for the earnest student for long years to come. . . ." Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, Series I, p. 47 Anand, you seem to want to IGNORE what Master K.H. says above. The Master says that the Secret Doctrine is "an epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and instruction for the earnest student for long years to come. . . ." That appears to me a recommendation....and totally opposite of what you say. You also write: "You asked me about mistakes of HPB. Although I can give many references, it is very boring and time consuming task. Moreover I expect that person should understand point quickly without my too much explanation." It may be as you say a very boring and time consuming task but you need to back up with specific examples your broad sweeping generalization if you want people to consider your statement accurate and creditable. Show some examples where you think HPB made mistakes ...hopefully major mistakes in the SD. A few....two or three or 5 of them. HPB may have made some mistakes ..... but does that negate the worth of the SD. Please ponder on what KH said in the quote I gave you earlier in this letter. Are you also trying to say that Leadbeater, for example, never made any mistakes comparable to what you think HPB did? I really wonder if you have carefully thought all of this through. Show some prime examples of HPB's mistakes and furthermore why we should rely on Leadbeater's writings over HPB's writings. Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 17:15:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7028 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 01:15:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 01:15:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.42) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 01:15:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:15:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.136] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:15:52 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:15:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 334 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.42 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: To Anand: Tell us please about "her mistakes" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Anand, You write: "But her mistakes confuse people greatly even after 100 years. So it has much negative value." Please give us on this forum a few of her mistakes. You keep on saying she made mistakes, so you must know some of them. Please give us a few examples and show us why they are in fact mistakes. Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 17:19:56 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44779 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 01:19:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 01:19:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 01:19:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:19:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.143] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:19:54 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:19:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 393 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.41 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Anand: So who made this mistake: Sinnett/Leadbeater or Blavatsky/Masters??? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Anand: So who made this mistake: Sinnett/Leadbeater or Blavatsky/Masters??? C.W. Leadbeater endorsed A.P. Sinnett's view that the Earth chain of globes included both Mars and Mercury. But in 1888 in THE SECRET DOCTRINE, Madame Blavatsky corrected Sinnett's mistake in the following words. See her correction at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/moderntheosophy.htm#2 Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 17:36:46 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67322 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 01:36:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 01:36:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.48) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 01:36:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n19.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:36:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.131] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:36:29 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:36:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 258 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.48 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Life after Death: Koot Hoomi/Blavatsky versus Leadbeater/Hodson???? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Life after Death: Koot Hoomi/Blavatsky versus Leadbeater/Hodson???? See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/morganafterdeath.htm So who made the mistakes? Master Koot Hoomi and H.P. Blavatsky OR C.W. Leadbeater and Geoffrey Hodson? Daniel http://hpb.cc From rajputks@hotmail.com Thu Dec 16 18:08:04 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33550 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 02:08:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 02:08:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.53.88) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 02:08:03 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:08:02 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 210.214.134.169 by by19fd.bay19.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 02:07:02 GMT X-Originating-Email: [rajputks@hotmail.com] X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <1103205522.372.5880.m12@yahoogroups.com> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Cc: mom_dad_hathi@yahoo.com, asbhand@satyam.net.in, dalmiasangita@yahoo.co.in, satishmehta4@epatra.com, satishmehta4@yahoo.com, Vikrant.Rajput@FMR.COM, kamal.singhrajput@gmail.com, nrshukla@yahoo.com Bcc: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 07:37:02 +0530 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Dec 2004 02:08:02.0377 (UTC) FILETIME=[3CFDF390:01C4E3DD] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.4.53.88 From: "Kamal Singh Rajput" X-Originating-IP: [210.214.134.169] Subject: LEARN,PROJECT AND SEE YOUR SELF X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206765605 LEARN, PROJECT AND SEE YOUR SELF Dear Friends, I have tried to share my experiences with the astral body with you all. The experiments on “Projection of Astral Body” were performed in true scientific spirit. However, there may be some shortcomings. I am eager to know. I welcome all your doubts and comments. That is the spirit of science. There is lot of literature on astral body and its projection even on the web. May I request you to go through some of the literature. There are set procedures for astral projection. Learn them with all precautions in mind and action. Project your own astral body and see for your self, the wonderful astral world. Come out and share with me and all your own experiences. I wish, some one write a book on DO IT YOUR SELF – ASTRAL PROJECTION. ...Kamal-S-Rajput... _________________________________________________________________ Get a job today. http://goindia.msnserver.com/IN/55252.asp Post your CV on naukri.com today. From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Dec 16 20:28:01 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20784 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 04:28:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 04:28:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gozer.look.ca) (207.136.80.10) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 04:28:00 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.48] (helo=idirect.ca) by gozer.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Cf9iW-00033Q-1m for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 04:27:48 +0000 Message-ID: <41C260E2.9050209@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:30:26 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.10 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn I've been tryig to figure out what there might on this page that I might want to "have a look" at. ^:-/ ... Mauri samblo@cs.com wrote: > Have a look at these. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > From silva_cass@yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 21:36:19 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 45952 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 05:36:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 05:36:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 05:36:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 13903 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Dec 2004 05:36:01 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=F1Kjrg57NNYEbTmuJxCN89Ip20K/545fUOWCVTCkVNG4ji2BfUTGB7Yfw8aH1J5rg7HIso7AqLQchvq4yBJ8B9rObKQTE3519zfELrCZUuUB95W0MStKUD27h1QoaYHsg30YrTTCdnmitx4cJEUdSGukp5ydHYxCZXBo2eeqyws= ; Message-ID: <20041217053601.13901.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 21:36:01 PST Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 21:36:01 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.74 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Anand ignored this posting from me and never answered the specific points X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As these ideas were so revolutionary at the time and HPB was not a native english speaker or writer of english, language misinterpretations may have occured which were cleared up by KootHoomi. I do not believe that the truth was misinterpreted, but there arose a need for words to describe the undescribable and when this happens the words are misinterpreted but never the message. In the case of Besant and Leadbeater, who had a christian slant in their make-up perhaps they may have misunderstood or were in denial and could have (slanted) misconstrued the real meaning to their own ideals. Maybe they made the pie fit the dish rather than the dish not being able to fit the pie. Cass "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: The material below I wrote to Anand more than a month ago and I also believe I posted it on this forum. Anand ignored this posting from me and never answered the specific points. ---------------------------------------------- Anand, you write: "HPB admitted that she misunderstood teaching given by the Masters." No she didn't admit that. She wrote: "...I MAY have misunderstood in many a point both Master and Old. G...." She didn't consider herself infallible and she did admit that she might be capable of making mistakes. "I MAY have misunderstood"....does not mean that she did misunderstand. And please consider what HPB wrote later: "Now Tookaram writes me a letter. In it he says that S.R. told him he was ready to help me and correct my S.D. provided I took out from it every reference to the Masters! Now, what's this? Does he mean to say that I should deny the Masters, or that I do not understand Them and garble the facts They give me, or that he, S.R. knows Master's doctrines better than I do?...." But Anand, why RELY on what Subba Row may or may not have said about the S.D. when we have the following assurances from the Master Koot Hoomi: "I have also noted, your thoughts about the 'Secret Doctrine.' Be assured that what she [HPB] has not annotated from scientific and other works, we have given or suggested to her. Every mistake or erroneous notion, corrected and explained by her from the works of other theosophists was corrected by me, or under my instruction. It is a more valuable work than its predecessor, an epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and instruction for the earnest student for long years to come. . . ." Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, Series I, p. 47 Anand, you seem to want to IGNORE what Master K.H. says above. The Master says that the Secret Doctrine is "an epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and instruction for the earnest student for long years to come. . . ." That appears to me a recommendation....and totally opposite of what you say. You also write: "You asked me about mistakes of HPB. Although I can give many references, it is very boring and time consuming task. Moreover I expect that person should understand point quickly without my too much explanation." It may be as you say a very boring and time consuming task but you need to back up with specific examples your broad sweeping generalization if you want people to consider your statement accurate and creditable. Show some examples where you think HPB made mistakes ...hopefully major mistakes in the SD. A few....two or three or 5 of them. HPB may have made some mistakes ..... but does that negate the worth of the SD. Please ponder on what KH said in the quote I gave you earlier in this letter. Are you also trying to say that Leadbeater, for example, never made any mistakes comparable to what you think HPB did? I really wonder if you have carefully thought all of this through. Show some prime examples of HPB's mistakes and furthermore why we should rely on Leadbeater's writings over HPB's writings. Daniel http://hpb.cc Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Dec 17 00:39:04 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 10055 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 08:39:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 08:39:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m27.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.8) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 08:39:03 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id j.199.34ac350d (1320); Fri, 17 Dec 2004 03:37:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199.34ac350d.2ef3f4df@aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 03:37:51 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.8 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: How fractal evolution works - part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 How fractal evolution works... http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/fixedtree.gif ... Is an interesting animation, related to ABC theory that describes how emanation of a dual entwined (positive-negative) ray (Superstring?) of Primal Force fractally involves radially (cyclically and vortically) out of the initial "spinergy" (or abstract motion) surrounding the absolute zero (laya) point -- to initially form the "coadunate but not consubstantial" fields of universal consciousness... That continues ("as above so below") in descending phase orders of frequency-energy, to eventually replicate into the seven fold fields of human consciousness. This also indicates why analogy and correspondence is a basic rule for understanding theosophical metaphysics or occult science. For diagrams showing how this works, see: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/invlutionflddiagnotate.gif Science today -- while it is gradually approaching an understanding of mu ltidimensional hyperspace fields (Superstring/M-brane theory, quantum field theory, etc.) that are analogous to the ABC fields, and is beginning to comprehend the relationship of the Aether (lower Astral field that, besides being the magnetic model of all forms of life, is also the medium of light) to the physical or metric fields of matter -- has still a long way to go before their wished for "Unified field Theory" (that baffled Einstein for more than 30 years) can become a scientifically proven reality. But, first, they have to solve the "hard problems" of explaining the "experience of consciousness" and "brain-mind binding" that is still baffling all of science -- even after the past 10 years of serious study as a recognized scientific discipline. This won't occur until scientists realize that consciousness (as awareness and will or intent) is a universal aspect of fundamental reality related to the zero-point itself... That is everywhere (contiguous on the highest level of zero-point energy) and is the central origin of all fields of force... While being the basis of the so called "entanglement" or "action at a distance" between fundamental quantum particles on any level. With this ultimate understanding they will also be able to synthesize information theory with relativity and quantum theories, along with recent theories of Aether physics, plasma electrodynamics, holographic paradigm, etc., and come up with an entirely new and synthetic scientific (physics, biology, cosmology, physiology, etc.) paradigm. When all this is accomplished, science will be able to finally merge with religion... And, the rest of Mankind can go about learning these fundamental truths, absorbing them (along with the eternality of spirit or self, and the unity and connectedness of all that they imply) into their souls, and cleaning up its act (that is now driving the world toward it ultimate destruction). Best wishes, Leon Maurer http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics From samblo@cs.com Fri Dec 17 02:46:38 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 60688 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 10:46:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 10:46:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d03.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 10:46:38 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1e4.30b4b779 (4196) for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 05:42:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1e4.30b4b779.2ef41228@cs.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 05:42:48 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.35 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Forum Members, This is the "Real Samblo," --Who ever sent the E-mail post about "Photo's" is an impostor, I sent no such post. Eldon, please look into this ASAP. If you notice the Screen Name is not identical to my regular (since 1999) Screen Name "Samblo." I am reporting this to CompuServe also. "---------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xm03.mx.aol.com (rly-xm03.mail.aol.com [172.20.83.104]) by air-xm02.mail.aol.com (v103.7) with ESMTP id MAILINXM22-60141c1dba3355; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:02:26 -0500 Received: from n22a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n22a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.51]) by rly-xm03.mx.aol.com (v103.7) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXM37-60141c1dba3355; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:01:55 -0500 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n22.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 18:57:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.30] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 18:57:35 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 38473 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 18:57:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 18:57:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yahoogroups.com) (80.202.254.127) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 18:57:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 80.202.254.127 From: samblo@cs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; contact theos-talk-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:58:25 +0100 Subject: Theos-World Re: Old photos Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AOL-IP: 66.94.237.51 X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:0:0: X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 Message-ID: <200412161402.60141c1dba3355@rly-xm03.mx.aol.com>" This may have been an attempt to infect the forum Members. Eldon, please inform me directly of your findings. John From samblo@cs.com Fri Dec 17 02:58:28 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 71835 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 10:58:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 10:58:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m15.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.205) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 10:58:27 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1e6.30e6d194 (4196) for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 05:56:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1e6.30e6d194.2ef4156b@cs.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 05:56:43 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.138.205 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Krishtar, I did not post that E-mail Krishtar, I am as surprised as you are. I have no idea what the Photo's indicated might have been as the protection against attachments on the Forum stripped it away before reaching us. It is some fraud for sure, likely a worm or virus spreading itself using an infected PC E-mail address lists from users. My Screen Name always has a capitol "S," Samblo. The "return header" may have useful data, but I read last night there is a new worm rampant in all countries in Europe, it is posted on Google currently. Be very careful every one, we live in an Internet mine field. Be sure to install Anti-virus and Firewall software and keep things tightly secure. John From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Fri Dec 17 03:38:45 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 1731 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 11:38:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 11:38:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 11:38:44 -0000 Received: from versus (unknown [200.193.3.218]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C594C33FA8 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:38:20 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <002f01c4e42c$a2075520$0301010a@versus> To: References: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 08:56:07 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Anand verus Koot Hoomi on Blavatsky's SECRET DOCTRINE??Krishtar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Daniel You should not care about Anand=B4s posts like this. It is not the first time this same text is posted, I sincerely think he doe= s this as a hobby. He never repplies your comments. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Daniel H. Caldwell=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 11:12 PM Subject: Theos-World Anand verus Koot Hoomi on Blavatsky's SECRET DOCTRIN= E?? Anand verus Koot Hoomi on Blavatsky's SECRET DOCTRINE?? Anand made a sweeping statement that Madame Blavatsky's "writing has many mistakes to the extent that it is not possible to recommend for reading even a single book by her." Not a single book....so even Anand would not recommend Blavatsky's THE SECRET DOCTRINE. Compare his estimation with that of Master Koot Hoomi: "I have also noted, your thoughts about the 'Secret Doctrine.' Be assured that what she [HPB] has not annotated from scientific and other works, we have given or suggested to her. Every mistake or erroneous notion, corrected and explained by her from the works of other theosophists was corrected by me, or under my instruction. It is a more valuable work than its predecessor, an epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and instruction for the earnest student for long years to come. . . ." Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, Series I, p. 47 Daniel http://hpb.cc =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Fri Dec 17 04:08:20 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94072 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 12:08:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 12:08:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 12:08:19 -0000 Received: from versus (unknown [200.193.3.218]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 74A8033EB3; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:08:17 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <005901c4e430$d0f50c20$0301010a@versus> To: , References: <1e6.30e6d194.2ef4156b@cs.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:06:18 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Internet is really as you said, a mine field. I thought it was some sort of old HPB pictures or something similar. Last week I installed an anti-spyware in my PC and it detected more than 50= spywares! I used Ad-Adware SE. These objects intelligently scan your preferences, your internet-cookies, y= our general interests and stay quietly in your machine, sending these info = for many companies or people. I also sometimes receive emails from "myself" , coming from my internet pro= vider!!! And notice that I am not schizo! I am looking for a free firewall software and if you know one that is good = , or any of you are aware of, ( references are always welcome) just tell me= and I=B4 ll be thanked in advance. I can still recall when I first caught my first virus...it was the "Stoned"= ...Dreadful nostalgia.( smiles) Good luck Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: samblo@cs.com=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 8:56 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Old photos Krishtar, I did not post that E-mail Krishtar, I am as surprised as you are. I = have=20 no idea what the Photo's indicated might have been as the protection agai= nst=20 attachments on the Forum stripped it away before reaching us. It is some = fraud=20 for sure, likely a worm or virus spreading itself using an infected PC E-= mail=20 address lists from users. My Screen Name always has a capitol "S," Samblo= .=20 The "return header" may have useful data, but I read last night there is = a new=20 worm rampant in all countries in Europe, it is posted on Google currently= . Be=20 very careful every one, we live in an Internet mine field. Be sure to ins= tall=20 Anti-virus and Firewall software and keep things tightly secure. John=20 =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Fri Dec 17 07:09:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15643 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 15:09:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 15:09:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web41527.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.134) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 15:09:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 80143 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Dec 2004 15:09:16 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=18/snCpieQxCa8+x9EDes2aQgmeXm1xRj8m/LRiM2+hB9dBfsTZUM4M5fe6Kx4MzjntL1CnIhoOhVN1QUgZe2TNPLsI4UI6vOImRK88MEfl6nYeA06epL0gjxwgHWiU27UaGJcdP7Pgb20kmXEApZKB+KUvvx551YkB3vY9CkNE= ; Message-ID: <20041217150916.80141.qmail@web41527.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [148.177.1.213] by web41527.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 07:09:16 PST Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 07:09:16 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.134 From: Towers1209 Reply-To: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Theos-World LEARN,PROJECT AND SEE YOUR SELF -- Kamal X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=205723283 X-Yahoo-Profile: traveller1209 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kamal Singh Rajput wrote: I wish, some one write a book on DO IT YOUR=20 SELF =96 ASTRAL PROJECTION. ...Kamal-S-Rajput... Kamal somebody did... (1) Astral Dynamics: A New Approach to Out-of-Body Experiences by Robert Bruce, Professor C. E. Lindgren (2) Far Journeys by ROBERT MONROE (3) Journeys Out of the Body by ROBERT MONROE=20 (4) The Ultimate Journey by ROBERT MONROE=20 Book (1) is a sort of do-it-yourself book; books (2) to (4) are the experie= nces of Robert Monroe regarding his awakening to, examination/exploration/e= xperimentation with out-of-body experience (OOBE, as the astral projection = is now more commonly called...) Also, see the ff websites --- http://www.monroeinstitute.org/, www.astraldy= namics.com I hope this helps.... Loreto [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Dec 17 08:09:00 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70605 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 16:08:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 16:08:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m18.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.208) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 16:08:59 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.d7.1c110eee (4206) for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:08:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:08:53 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.138.208 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World LEARN,PROJECT AND SEE YOUR SELF -- Kamal X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/17/04 9:11:10 AM Central Standard Time,=20 towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com writes: <<=20 I wish, some one write a book on DO IT YOUR=20 SELF =E2=80=93 ASTRAL PROJECTION. >> There are tons of them out there. Just go to www.amazon.com and type "astr= al=20 projection" in the search box. Chuck the Heretic From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Dec 17 08:51:43 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78538 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 16:51:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 16:51:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 16:51:42 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CfLK6-0004MS-5u for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:51:22 -0500 Message-ID: <41C30E8A.80401@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:51:22 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041217053601.13901.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041217053601.13901.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba6a1baa0ee52c84b28899df62430919253d22eb99cf5c6dcb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.65 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Errors in the primary literature X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Cass Silva wrote: > As these ideas were so revolutionary at the time and HPB was not a > native english speaker or writer of english, language > misinterpretations may have occured which were cleared up by > KootHoomi. I do not believe that the truth was misinterpreted, but > there arose a need for words to describe the undescribable and when > this happens the words are misinterpreted but never the message. That is why I use the following rule in reading the primary literature: If the Secret Doctrine differs from current scientific knowledge, I look for the following: 1) Am I making assumptions which are not necessarily warranted? 2) Is there a way of interpreting the words to conform with current scientific knowledge? 3) Is there any evidence that this comes from information that was received second-hand, which is incorrect? For example, in Mahatma Letter #65 (by the way, anybody who wants to do serious Theosophical research should get a copy of THEOSOPHICAL CLASSICS; for $24.95, it's an incredibly useful tool, containing ISIS UNVEILED, THE SECRET DOCTRINE, THE MAHATMA LETTERS, THE COLLECTED WRITINGS OF H.P.B., and several other sources): "What does modern science know of force proper, or say the forces, the cause or causes of motion? How can there be such a thing as potential energy, i.e., an energy having latent inactive power since it is energy only while it is moving matter, and that if it ever ceased to move matter it would cease to be, and with it matter itself would disappear?" The reason why I often use this statement as an example is that it clearly shows that the Koot Hoomi is clearly using an incorrect definition of the term, "potential energy". Give the definition that he is using, he is most probably correct, but if you ignore the definition, then he is wrong. There IS such a thing as potential energy, but it is NOT what is being described. So, applying the three tests: 1) One might assume that Koot Hoomi is personally familiar with then-current knowledge of physics, and knew what was meant by the term "potential energy." 2) By looking at the definition rather than the term, it DOES fit with current scientific knowledge. 3) Since this was an answer to a letter written by a non-physicist, it is not unreasonable that the letter contained the term "potential energy" with the incorrect definition. It has been theorized, and has so far stood up to all experimentation, that humans can only think in terms of symbols. The problem with symbols is that they can be manipulated into something self-contradictory, and therefore meaningless. For example: The sentence on the next line is false. The sentence on the previous line is true. We appear to have a paradox. What we have is a bunch of glowing phosphors on a screen, or a bunch of drops of inks on a piece of paper, that appear to create a meaningful pattern, but in fact create a meaningless pattern. While I would not go as far as the late philosopher, Jacques Derrida, in his theories of Deconstructionism, he DID have a good basic point that language is always ambiguous. Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Dec 17 09:00:19 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 11329 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 17:00:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 17:00:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 17:00:19 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CfLSk-00080D-Gw for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:00:18 -0500 Message-ID: <41C310A3.5040103@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:00:19 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <1e4.30b4b779.2ef41228@cs.com> In-Reply-To: <1e4.30b4b779.2ef41228@cs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba6a1baa0ee52c84b2dcbb106de4fd8b1f795b3f24a9f74b7f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.65 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 samblo@cs.com wrote: > This is the "Real Samblo," --Who ever sent the E-mail post about "Photo's" > is an impostor, I sent no such post. Eldon, please look into this ASAP. If you > notice the Screen Name is not identical to my regular (since 1999) Screen > Name "Samblo." I am reporting this to CompuServe also. I send this so often, I should probably keep a copy as a reference post: Short version: These days, having your name on the "From" field of an email with an attached virus is pretty good evidence that it did NOT come from you. Long version: It used to be that viruses were eliminated by the infected party, finding a bunch of returned emails or warnings from recipients, checking out his or her machine, and getting rid of this. Virus authors, not liking this, came up with an alternative. The "from" field on emails is not fixed; there is good reason for this (for example, I have several email addresses from several different domains, but can only use the SMTP server on the network into which I am logged). So what virus authors did was to not only have the virus send the message to every email address it could find on the infected computer, it also put found email addresses on the "From:" field, to further confuse matters. Bart From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Dec 17 09:08:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40592 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 17:08:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 17:08:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO keymaster.look.ca) (207.136.80.9) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 17:08:40 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.127] (helo=idirect.ca) by keymaster.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CfLao-0002As-Kj for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:08:38 +0000 Message-ID: <41C3133A.10703@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:11:22 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <199.34ac350d.2ef3f4df@aol.com> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on chi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.9 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World How fractal evolution works - part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn leonmaurer@aol.com wrote, in part: > How fractal evolution works... > This won't occur until scientists realize that consciousness (as awareness > and will or intent) is a universal aspect of fundamental reality related to the > zero-point itself... That is everywhere (contiguous on the highest level of > zero-point energy) and is the central origin of all fields of force... While > being the basis of the so called "entanglement" or "action at a distance" between > fundamental quantum particles on any level. With this ultimate understanding > they will also be able to synthesize information theory with relativity and > quantum theories, along with recent theories of Aether physics, plasma > electrodynamics, holographic paradigm, etc., and come up with an entirely new and > synthetic scientific (physics, biology, cosmology, physiology, etc.) paradigm. > > When all this is accomplished, science will be able to finally merge with > religion... And, the rest of Mankind can go about learning these fundamental > truths, absorbing them (along with the eternality of spirit or self, and the unity > and connectedness of all that they imply) into their souls, and cleaning up > its act (that is now driving the world toward it ultimate destruction). > > Best wishes, > > Leon Maurer > http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics Leon, those kinds of efforts remind me of the efforts of those "gods" like Osiris during the "First Time" (Zep Tepi) in ancient Egypt. So maybe if you were to build a few impressive pyramids or some kind of equally impressive things, as well, would that help to impressive the natives that more is going on than meets the average native eye ... ? Not that your ABC's might not necessarily be seen as impressive enough, maybe, in some sense, maybe ... but then if your ABC's get the same kind of interpretive treatment that the pyramids have had from orthodox Egyptologists, well ... ^:-/ ... Good Luck, anyway. Mauri PS Been reading Hancocks FINGERPRINTS OF THE GODS, lately. Fascinating. From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Fri Dec 17 09:15:02 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41261 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 17:15:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 17:15:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.158) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 17:15:01 -0000 Received: from versus (200-215-101-014.jvece7001.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.215.101.14]) by smtp2.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 792C335C1 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:14:59 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <003b01c4e45b$a9f85e80$0301010a@versus> To: References: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:13:01 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.158 From: "krishtar" Subject: Kamal - Krishtar - Conscience projection X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Kamal In Brazil, there is an institute called IIPC (IAC) and its purposes are the developing the projection of conscience. There are special courses that anybody can do. The International Academy of Consciousness (IAC) is a non-profit organization dedicated to the scientific study of the .consciousness (human essence, soul). The IAC is maintained through revenues generated from its own activities. As a non-profit organization, all income is re-invested in research and the further development of its existing services. The link is http://www.iacworld.org/. See for yourself. Regards Krishtar [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Dec 17 10:50:46 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 21130 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 18:50:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 18:50:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 18:50:45 -0000 Received: from [209.179.218.195] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CfNB5-00012b-9R; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:50:17 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE; b=S6tAszC01XyAredNePenLkYK9XDx8RI3eeSrHuRuo6gF0U9yVfa0xRYuPM58e0yS; To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:49:34 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01c4e469$3cdf4260$c3dab3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec796d47e8b23778287daee3186f313dc018350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.65 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.218.195 Subject: RE: HPB admitted she misunderstood teaching given by Masters X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 17 2004 Re: "Faults" said to be in SECRET DOCTRINE ?=20=20 Are you saying the MASTERS are wrong?=20=20 Dear friend Anand, and other friends: First of all:=20=20 Have you found some errors in HPB's SECRET DOCTRINE or other writings ?=20=20 Can you detect any ? A list would be helpful, or, is this written by you out of doubt or envy ? Does it betray your own limitations ?=20=20 If on the other hand, the SECRET DOCTRINE is truthful, as the MASTERS vouch for it, and say they produced it along with HPB, then why do you oppose THE= M ? [ See certificate given, below copied.] I trust, that in publishing this, you do not mean to imply that you feel obligated, or able, to try to "correct" HPB ? If Mr. Subba Row was correct, then why did he not write some articles that correct the book? His opinion, given to Olcott (as reported) is lacking in both substance and evidence. I wonder if you realize that it is you who are trying to place doubts concerning HPB, the Masters, and the SECRET DOCTRINE in the minds of reader= s or potential students.=20=20 BUT WHY ? WHAT DANGERS ARE TO BE FOUND THERE ? I remind you of the CERTIFICATES of authorship that the Masters gave to the SECRET DOCTRINE=20 Best wishes, Dallas =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Anand Gholap=20 Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 3:09 PM To:=20 Subject: HPB admitted she misunderstood teaching given by Masters On 4 th January 1887 HPB wrote letter to Col. Olcott after Subba Raw=20 (S.R.) gave opinion about Proem of SD.=20 HPB writes=20=20 " ........Let S.R. do what he likes. I give him carte=20 blanche. I trust in his wisdom far more than in mine, for I may have=20 misunderstood in many a point both Master and the Old G. (other=20 Adept). They give me facts only and rarely dictate in succession. I=20 am no maker of books you know it........" It not only tells wisdom of SR but also tells that she did=20 misunderstand things which went into her writing. Later when she sent draft of Secrete Doctrine to Subba Raw for=20 correcting mistakes. He went through it and told her that if he was=20 to correct it he would have to write whole book again.=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D CERTIFICATES GIVEN BY THE MASTERS There exists the certificates given by the Masters to Dr. Hubbe-Schleiden - reprinted in PATH for 1893, Vol. 8, pp. 1-3.=20=20 These read:=20=20 AUTHORSHIP OF SECRET DOCTRINE A good deal has been said about the writing of Isis Unveiled, and later of the Secret Doctrine, both by H. P. Blavatsky.=20 A writer in the spiritualistic journals took great pains to show how many books the first work seems to quote from, and the conclusion to be arrived at after reading his diatribes is that H.P.B. had an enormous library at he= r disposal, and of course in her house, for she never went out, or that she had agents at great expense copying books, or, lastly, that by some process or power not known to the world was able to read books at a distance, as, for instance, in the Vatican at Rome and the British Museum.=20=20 The last is the fact. She lived in a small flat when writing the first book and had very few works on hand, all she had being of the ordinary common sort. She herself very often told how she gained her information as to modern books. No secret was made of it, for those who were with her saw day after day that she could gaze with ease into the astral light and glean whatever she wanted.=20 But in the early days she did not say precisely to the public that she was in fact helped in that work by the Masters, who gave from time to time certain facts she could not get otherwise. The Secret Doctrine, however, makes no disguise of the real help, and she asserts, as also many of us believe, that the Masters had a hand in that great production.=20 The letters sent to Mr. Sinnett formed the ground for ESOTERIC BUDDHISM, as was intended, but as time went on it was seen that some more of the veil ha= d to be lifted and certain misconceptions cleared up; hence the SECRET DOCTRINE was written, and mostly by the Masters themselves, except that she did the arranging of it. For some time it was too much the custom of those who had received at the hands of H.P.B. words and letters from her Masters to please themselves wit= h the imagination that she was no more in touch with the original fount, and that, forsooth, these people could decide for themselves what was from her brain and what from the Masters.=20 But it is now time to give out a certificate given when the Secret Doctrine was being written, a certificate signed by the Masters who have given out all that is new in our theosophical books. It was sent to one who had then = a few doubts, and at the same time copies were given from the same source to others for use in the future, which is now. The first certificate runs thus: "I wonder if this note of mine is worthy of occupying a select spot with th= e documents reproduced, and which of the peculiarities of the "Blavatskian" style of writing it will be found to most resemble? The present is simply t= o satisfy the Doctor that "the more proof given the less believed." Let him take my advice and not make these two documents public. It is for his own satisfaction the undersigned is happy to assure him that the SECRET DOCTRINE, when ready, will be the triple production of [here are the names of one of the Masters and of H.P.B.] and _______ most humble servant, [signed by the other.]" On the back of this was the following, signed by the Master who is mentione= d in the above: "If this can be of any use or help to _____, though I doubt it, I, the humble undersigned Faquir, certify that the Secret Doctrine is dictated to [name of H.P.B.], partly by myself and partly by my brother ______." A year after this, certain doubts having arisen in the minds of individuals= , another letter from one of the signers of the foregoing was sent and reads as follows.=20 As the prophecy in it has come true, it is now the time to publish it for the benefit of those who know something of how to take and understand such letters. For the outside it will all be so much nonsense. "The certificate given last year saying the SECRET DOCTRINE would be when finished the triple production of [H.P.B.'s name], ________, and myself was and is correct, although some have doubted not only the facts given in it but also the authenticity of the message in which it was contained. Copy this and also keep the copy of the aforesaid certificate. You will find the= m both of use on the day when you shall, as will happen without your asking, receive from the hands of the very person to whom the certificate was given= , the original for the purpose of allowing you to copy it; and then you can verify the correctness of this presently forwarded copy. And it may then be well to indicate to those wishing to know what portions in the Secret Doctrine have been copied by the pen of [H.P.B.'s name] into its pages, though without quotation marks, from my own manuscript and perhaps from ______, though the last is more difficult from the rarity of his known writing and greater ignorance of his style. All this and more will be found necessary as time goes on, but for which you are well qualified to wait." ONE OF THE STAFF --- PATH, April, 1893 =20 ------------------------------------------ Additionally --: In The PATH for July 1895, Mr. Judge published an article:=20 "H.P.B. ON MESSAGES FROM MASTERS."=20=20 [Reprinted in WQJ Articles, Vol. I, p. 55] It reads: "Some years ago H.P.B. was charged [ by A. P. Sinnett ] with misuse of Mahatmas' names and handwritings, with forgery of messages from the Mahatmas, and with humbugging the public and the T.S. therewith. Those charges had floated vaguely about for sometime...afterwards, writing on the subject in "LODGES OF MAGIC" [ HPB Articles 1, p. 291 ] in LUCIFER [Vol. 3= , pp. 92-3 ] the question of genuineness or the opposite of such messages was dealt with, and what she wrote is here presented for reconsideration.=20=20 It covers two matters. FIRST, it proves out of her own mouth what the PATH not long ago said that "if one letter has to be doubted then all have" to be doubted. Hence if th= e "Letter to some Brahmins" ["Prayag Letter" -- MAHATMA LETTERS, p. 461-3 --] is a fraud, as Col. Olcott and another say, then all the rest are, also. SECOND, it applies precisely to the present state of affairs in respect to messages from Masters, just as it she had so long ago foreseen the present and left the article so that tyros in occultism, such as the present agitators are, might have something to show them how to use their judgment. The portion selected from her article reads: "We have been asked by a correspondent why he should not "be free to suspect some of the so-called 'precipitated' letters as being forgeries," giving as his reason for it that while some of them bear the stamp of (to him) undeniable genuineness, others seem from their contents and style, to be imitations.=20=20 This is equivalent of saying that he had such an unerring spiritual insight as to be able to detect the false from the true, though h= e has never met a Master, nor been given any key by which to test his alleged communications.=20=20 The inevitable consequence of applying his untrained judgment in such cases, would be to make his as likely as not to declare false what was genuine and genuine what was false. Thus what criterion has any one to decide between one "precipitated" letter, or another such letter= ? Who except their authors, or those whom they employ as their amanuenses (th= e chelas and disciples) can tell? For it hardly one out of a hundred "occult= " letters that is ever written in the hand of the Master, in whose name and o= n whose behalf they are sent, as the Masters have neither need nor leisure to write them; and when a Master says: "I wrote that letter" it means only that every word in it was dictated by him and impressed under his direct supervision.=20=20 Generally they make their chela, whether near or far away, write (or precipitate) them, by impressing upon his mind the ideas they wish expressed, and if necessary aiding him in the picture printing process of precipitation. It depends entirely upon the chela's state of development, how accurately the ideas may be transmitted and the writing-model imitated. Thus the non-adept recipient is left in the dilemma of uncertainty, whether if one letter is false all may not be, for as far as intrinsic evidence goes, all come from the same source, and all are brought by the same mysterious means. But there is another and far worse condition implied. All the so-called occult letters being supported by identical proofs, they have all to stand or fall together. If one is to be doubted, then all have= , and the series of letters in the OCCULT WORLD, ESOTERIC BUDDHISM, etc., etc., may be, and there is no reason why they should not be in such a case ,-- frauds, "clever impostures," and "forgeries" such as the ingenuous though stupid agent of the "S.P.R." has made them out to be, in order to raise in the public estimation the scientific acumen and standard of his "Principals"... [H.P.B.] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =09 The scope of the original Theosophical literature HPB produced and to which the Masters certified (PATH, Vol. 8, p. 1 -3) is adequate proof of this fact. In addition, the MAHATMA LETTERS provide us with further demonstrations of the ubiquity and power of perception that a real knowledg= e of THEOSOPHY provides. Yes, both HPB and the Masters have said that nothing ought to be taken on "faith," or blindly. But that does not imply they erred.=20=20 I have found no serious refutation of the philosophy or the=20 facts of history adduced in the "original literature" that alerts us to any real need for describing THEOSOPHY as faulty. If there are any of the general principles that are found to be flawed, I woul= d very much like to have those exposed.=20=20 With profound personal respect for HPB her sacrificial work, old, feeble an= d infirm, and for the Masters of Wisdom who inspired this magnificent effort -- who are we to carp? And complain? Or seek to demean that work?=20 In my opinion we know so little ourselves, all of us, that it is inappropriate to criticize. Let me add=20 Theosophy will only be understood by those who study and seek to understand it. To rely on opinions (specially mine, or of anyone else) is unfair to Theosophy because none of us can do it justice. At best we can only tell others of what we have learned (or not learned) from it.=20 The potter who made the cup and saucer found among tangled roots of plants is Simla (India, the Himalayan Town North of New Delhi) was not questioned. The cup was used to provide tea at an impromptu picnic.=20=20 The SECRET DOCTRINE can sit on one's shelf indefinitely, but, until one reads it, one has no concept of its contents. No amount of opinions portray the contents of the book nor can they predict a reader's reaction to studying it.=20 I therefore always encourage direct contact because any other writing about Theosophy is inevitably opinionated -- it is second-hand Theosophy at best. But the respect we show for its teachers and messengers is due to the work They did and continue to do. ------ provides his opinion -- to which he is entitled. The proof of the value of THEOSOPHY lies in the reader's comprehension of what is offered there. To offer an opinion that may dissuade a potential theosophist from making direct contact and framing therefrom his own opinions, is dangerous in my esteem.=20=20 Theosophy is not proved or demonstrated by the discovery of spare tea cups and saucers to match. Theosophy is offered as a practical way of living, based on actual universal Laws of all life, and the history, recorded by th= e Sages, of its evolution.=20 Let me show from documents of the early days of the teaching of Theosophy what is said by Master K H in a letter to Col. Olcott delivered at sea on board the S. S. Shannon as he was coming to Europe in 1888 : -- "Try to remove such misconceptions as you will find, by kind persuasion and an appeal to the feelings of loyalty to the Cause of truth if not to us.=20 Make all these men feel that we have no favourites, nor affections for persons, but only for their good acts and humanity as a whole.=20 But we employ agents -- the best available. Of these for the past thirty years the chief has been the personality known as H. P. B. to the world (bu= t otherwise to us). Imperfect and very troublesome, no doubt, she proves to some, nevertheless, there is no likelihood of our finding a better one for years to come -- and your theosophists should be made to understand it.=20 Since 1885 I have not written, nor caused to be written save thro' her agency, direct or remote, a letter or line to anybody in Europe or America, nor communicated orally with, or thro' any third party. Theosophists should learn it. You will understand later the significance of this declaration so keep it in mind. Her fidelity to our work being constant, and her suffering= s having come upon her thro' it, neither I nor either of my Brother associate= s will desert or supplant her. As I once before remarked, ingratitude is not among our vices.=20 With yourself our relations are direct, and have been with the rare exceptions you know of, like the present, on the psychical plane, and so will continue thro' force of circumstances. That they are so rare -- is you= r own fault as I told you in my last.=20 To help you in your present perplexity:=20 H. P. B. has next to no concern with administrative details, and should be kept clear of them, so far as her strong nature can be controlled.=20 But this you must tell to all: -- With occult matters she has everything to do. We have not abandoned her; she is not "given over to chelas."=20 She is our direct agent. I warn you against permitting your suspicions and resentment against "her many follies" to bias your intuitive loyalty to her= . In the adjustment of this European business, you will have two things to consider -- the external and administrative, and the internal and psychical= . Keep the former under your control and that of your most prudent associates= , jointly; leave the latter to her.=20 You are left to devise the practical details with your usual ingenuity. Onl= y be careful, I say, to discriminate when some emergent interference of hers in practical affairs is referred to you on appeal, between that which is merely exoteric in origin and effects, and that which beginning on the practical tends to beget consequences on the spiritual plane. As to the former you are the best judge, as to the latter, she.=20 I have also noted, your thoughts about the "SECRET DOCTRINE." Be assured that what she has not annotated from scientific and other works, we have given or suggested to her. Every mistake or erroneous notion, corrected and explained by her from the works of other theosophists was corrected by me, or under my instruction. It is a more valuable work than its predecessor, a= n epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and instruction for the earnest student for long years to come. . . . " LETTERS FROM THE MASTERS OF WISDOM 3rd Series, p. 52-4 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Altering The SECRET DOCTRINE Why ? Why would one desire to alter the Secret Doctrine ? Is there a secret desire to prove that in some respect the alterer is superior to HPB or to the Masters ? HPB showed herself a true teacher when she wrote: " Do not follow me or my path; follow the Path I show, the Masters who are behind." We can see the wisdom in this advice when we consider the course of history - of those who judged the "teaching" by what they could see of the "teacher." They judged her by their standards. Not by her adhesion to the Theosophy she taught. W. Q. Judge had the same judgment passed on him, historically, because he upheld HPB first, last, and all the time. Why is that so ? Is it not because there were those who were fearful of "authority ?" So fearful that they tried to convey the impression that they knew better than she, and could "explain her away." The results of this are plain today, a 100 years later, as many who claim to be "Theosophists," or "students of theosophy," have scanty concepts as to what Theosophy (as a body of knowledge) says or teaches. They are usually unfamiliar with what H P B wrote. Even the KEY TO THEOSOPHY is usually unstudied by them That it offers the freedom from creedal restraints and is eclectic, everyone applauds. That its societies and other student-bodies offer forums for mutual study and debate is recognized as a plus.=20=20 But THEOSOPHY ? As a Philosophy, as a Doctrine ? How many know it chapter and verse so as to be able to explain it to new-comers as well as to themselves. Why is it that Theosophical doctrines cover: -- 1. the 3 Fundamentals (Universality, Law, Evolution and perfection for all), 2. the 7 Principles (Spirit, Wisdom, Mind, Emotions, Life, Model body, physical Body), 3. the 3-fold Evolutionary scheme (Spirit, Mind, Form) - 4. the Immortality of the MONAD, and its interminable gyrations through evolution from High to low and from low to high - 5. the development of CONSCIOUSNESS and Intelligence, 6. Reincarnation, Karma, Causality, Responsibility, 7. and Potential PERFECTION for all. Some of HPB's critics looked actively for "mistakes." - and found some minor ones - as to whether they were hers or those of proof-readers is not known. [ See H P B's MY BOOKS ] In any case those critics made claims, overt or subtle, to an "authority" (or a "scholarship) which she never claimed They endeavored to minimize the only SOURCE on which reliance could be placed, while those who were truly wise invariably pointed to her as the Teacher to whom all alike should look. This was Mr. Judge's attitude then; and others, who have followed have found, and will find, where she pointed. Both can be considered as true collaborators. What is our present work ? Are we not striving to learn what Theosophy can teach ? Are we not looking to be united in that understanding ? If we try to assimilate the teachings of Theosophy we will soon find that proofs are everywhere. Then, differences of opinion are seen for what they are and gradually vanish. This is not to say that some new creed should arise, or that any Dogmatism, or fundamentalism should flourish.=20=20 But if a goodly number of us find that Theosophy is accurate,=20 should we not speak of it as such and encourage each other to=20 review individual findings and assure ourselves of that=20 universality and exactitude ? The Path is open to all, but each=20 has to find and tread it by his own will and self-choice. Those who can read have the opportunity to look at all the several editions (of The SECRET DOCTRINE ) that have been=20 published, and decide for themselves which will be the most=20 valuable and trustworthy.=20 The "Kali-Yuga" moves swiftly, and in 125 years we have seen unroll many of the conditions and trials that it took Christianity over a=20 thousand years to witness unrolling. A wise man once wrote: " The path of true Occultism and that of immorality do not coincide. The Masters do not judge anyone, nor can They "forgive" anyone for sins of omission and commission. Masters have to use such material as exists. If anyone has lapses, so much the worse for him and for the work. It should also be remembered that so long as one is willing to stay in the world for the work, he can. Each stays, or goes out in accordance with the own desire. The door is never shut on him by the Law..." [ F P - R C ] Dallas From aupanishad@msn.com Fri Dec 17 11:43:12 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65437 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 19:43:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 19:43:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.109) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 19:43:11 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:43:00 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV5.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 19:42:16 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "JOYCE SMITH" , "Juan Schoch" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:42:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:42:18 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Dec 2004 19:43:00.0782 (UTC) FILETIME=[9DC80CE0:01C4E470] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.109 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: Holidays X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Asalaan 'aikym Xmas, All! (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "La ilaha il'Allah!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Fri Dec 17 12:05:20 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98892 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 20:05:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 20:05:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.112) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 20:05:02 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:05:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV8.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 20:04:07 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "Juan Schoch" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:04:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:04:09 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Dec 2004 20:05:01.0448 (UTC) FILETIME=[B0F5B080:01C4E473] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.112 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: That's hard to get right drunk! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Salaam [Xmas] 'alaikum and 'Alaisum Salaalm to all my (forrmer?) friends 'Asalaam Alaikum," (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "La ilaha il'Allah!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Dec 17 14:24:50 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 729 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 22:24:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 22:24:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m20.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.1) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 22:24:49 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1e9.317c999f (3850); Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:20:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1e9.317c999f.2ef4b5b9@aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:20:41 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.1 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Science and Theosophy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Steven, Thanks again. However, I think you misinterpreted my statement. It was not intended to imply that theosophy has any need to "appeal to scientists or people." But it did say that (as HPB pointed out} theosophy must be taught ("spread broadcast" she said) to ordinary people in such a manner, and in the "language of this age" -- so that they will understand the fundamental truth behind the immutable scientific laws that govern karma and reincarnation -- which will, in turn, prove to them that altruism and universal brotherhood is a law of nature... HPB also said that it was the duty of all theosophists through self devised and self determined study and effort to arrive at self realization so as to translate that teaching into the "language of this age," and in turn, transmit it to the world at large. The Masters knew that such knowledge would be the only way to teach them that to break such a law -- by ignoring it or "acting in a manner not in accord with nature" (i.e., committing such "sins" as separation of one's self from other selves, harm to other beings in any way, etc.) whether in thoughts or deeds -- leads to karmic retribution in this life and future lives yet to come... And, that each one's destiny is completely in one's own hands. All the rest of the "bleeding heart" ideas and preachiness that rely on sentimental "love thy neighbor," "turn the other cheek," "thou shalt not...," etc., admonitions has never worked in the past and certainly will never work in the future. So, in order for people to accept those laws, and thereby, give up their selfish materialism that leads to wars, ecological disasters, and other problems of the world -- not to mention a retardation of human evolution -- they must either find out the scientific truths behind karma and reincarnation, themselves, or accept the teachings of their "gurus" -- who today are the "scientists" of every discipline (and particularly, those working on advanced multidimensional string theories that are getting closer and closer to theosophical metaphysics, as HPB predicted) and who will eventually prove those truths (with a little kick in the ass by my ABC theory that puts consciousness into their pictures:-) so that everyone can understand them... As simply as Einstein explained the ideas of relativity and the true metaphysical nature of physical reality -- that is counter intuitive with respect to our "educated" material "science" (which gives us our Cell phones, etc.), or to our physical senses conditioned by that same false Science (but working technology). Please note, that quantum and relativity theories are mutually incompatible -- since quantum physics is just a limited aspect of true metaphysics, that is nothing more than a contrived mathematical concept which enables the solid state digital technology to work. It is no more valid as an overall picture of reality than was Newtonian mechanics prior to the Einstein theories or relativity -- which proved E=mc^2, curved space, gravity as a spatial distortion due to mass, light as both energy and mass (a wave and a particle), etc., (all of which came directly out of the Secret Doctrine). See: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html Fortunately, there is much more in the SD (especially, when it explains the origins of and connections between consciousness and matter, mind and brain, etc.)... But, unfortunately, Einstein died before he could prove a "unified field theory" -- that had to include consciousness. (BTW; The ABC theory picks up where he left off.) Also, unfortunately, most people accept the materialist view that the quantum physicists are satisfied with -- since it works for them, and justifies the selfish materialism of the beneficiaries of their technologies... The so called "ordinary man in the street"... That dreamily wanders through life suffering in a fog of ignorance about who and what he truly is, where he is really going, and why all he has to look forward to in life is a few moments of ephemeral pleasures before losing all the powers and things he so laboriously gathered and finally dying and rotting in a grave? And, isn't it a shame that whatever he left behind, including his offspring, is left holding the same bag in the same blind mess of a world he left behind in worse shape than when he came into it. It's this assuredness of material life as the only reality and their separateness from it of the dyed in the wool materialists and gullible religionists (most people) that has to be broken down intellectually first, before one can "become like a child" (or baby) ... When one can directly accept the true reality and one's unity with it -- along with the complete intellectual (as well as intuitive) assurance that it couldn't be any other way. Remember, to be such a baby in intuitive consciousness, without such intellectual understanding of the true reality in one's already mature mind, would not enable one to continue functioning in this world and be a responsible adult with all the obligations that one would still have to fulfill -- not to mention having the important ability to teach that understanding to others -- which is the obligatory role of all true theosophists. Such a change of mind, spread throughout the entire human race -- is what theosophy, as given out in this time and age, is all about. Otherwise, why would HPB devote more than 90% of her writings to the explanation of the theosophical metaphysics? So, who is there that can do that spreading (other than us theosophists who know how to explain theosophy in plain English so, not only a scientist, but also a child could understand it)? Incidentally, I've explained ABC to pre teen age children, and they have no problem understanding it, and fitting it in with their scientific and technological understandings. The only problem is (among those not brainwashed by religious parents) they give more credence to their science teachers and their materialized explanations (since they are afraid to include consciousness in their teachings). So, I disagree with your interpretation of theosophy as solely "the science of being human." Theosophy was not given out to the world primarily for that purpose. All the world's religions and yoga's already covers that more than adequately -- without having to write almost 2000 pages of the Secret Doctrine (and even much more pages than that in explanatory articles by both HPB and WQJ) to scientifically explain the metaphysics behind those moral-ethical teachings. It was given out so that all the previous religious teachings that relied on faith in personal Gods, Messiahs, revelations, vicarious atonement's, commandments, preachments, etc., etc., would be countermanded with a clear and final scientific understanding of metaphysical reality, proving the reality of karma and reincarnation as well as one's own responsibility for both self salvation (realization) and the salvation of the entire human wave of evolution -- that would need no "higher" authorities or "Gods" to enforce. But, which would enforce itself through knowledge and understanding, alone. Universal brotherhood cannot become a reality and the world saved from destruction by man's misunderstanding of his responsibility for it, or by goody-goody preachment, or by edicts, or by sitting in empty minded meditation contemplating ones navel. That understanding, based on a true knowledge of both Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis was the only purpose for theosophy as it was given out to the modern world... As the "esoteric" teaching of scientific metaphysics based on fundamental principles that, when understood properly, would justify all theosophical moral and ethical precepts. Therefore, unless everyone thoroughly understands that scientific metaphysical basis of the true nature of ALL reality (with the help of the advanced science that is gradually approaching these truths) -- the human race will keep on muddling along in its ignorance until the entire world comes crashing down around us, and as HPB warned, the entire human race (what's left of it) will fall back another million years of evolution. When are we going to learn that theosophists talking to and arguing with theosophists will never get us anywhere? That is why (in my work on ABC which interprets theosophical metaphysics in scientific terms) I am interested only in spurring the academic scientists along their destined path to eventually merge their science with theosophy -- so that they, as the gurus (having now gained a scientific "religion" themselves:-) of the masses in this age, can convince those masses of the truths of karma and reincarnation. When that happens, theosophy will be recognized as the true "science of life" by everyone, and we students can then become the respected teachers of the coming new 6th sub-race during this Aquarian Age. I believe that that's all the Masters and HPB expected from any of us. Not to disagree with your observations about science -- I hope this clarifies my own view with respect to Science and Theosophy, and why theosophists must learn how to explain theosophy in scientific terms if they want to be of any use to the "Movement" in this most critical time in theosophical history. It's good to remember that none of the teachings were given out solely for our own personal salvation or enlightenment -- but entirely so that we each, through study and practice, can become an individual "nucleus of universal brotherhood" and "better able to help and teach others." Best wishes, Leon "Steven Levey" I writes: Leon Great job of collating all of this discussion. The only difference in my mind is regarding this: "To see it this way, in the only way that theosophy will ever be able to become scientifically valid in the eyes of ordinary people. And, by so understanding, eliminate its "mysticism" engendered by the theosophical jargon that prevents them from comprehending the scientific basis of karma and reincarnation, or the universality of the fundamental laws of cycles and periodicity upon which these "processes" and all the laws of nature are based upon." To tell you the truth, I don't think Theosophy has any need to make itself appealing to the scientists or "ordinary People" of this day or any other. In fact I think, it is quite in the reverse. Not that scientists need to make their "jargon" more appealing, but, since each scientist is a human being first, like "ordinary people", and Theosophy is the science of being human, it is in that sense that they (both Scientists and ordinary people) will have to "know" the similarities, then the jargon will be irrelevant. "Knowing" as I am using it, is the mystical connection available to anyone, and the language of expression will often differ per person, not to mention Movements. Theosophy, as an international movement, which takes on the name appropriate for a given period of human cultural history, regardless of society names, is simply the meaning behind things manifest. Therefore, Science is in the business of making material sense out of what has been "Known" for ever, by anyone, "ordinary people" included, who have clarified themselves enough to see those meanings. And I mean, anyone. My youngest daughter unconsciously knows things about the world that I have forgotten or covered up by my so-called adult intellectualism. Ergo the phase of Jesus: "You must become as a child to enter into the Kingdom". This is real life, where knowing happens all of the time, and Science will no more validate or invalidate this (mystical) awareness no matter what they do. I don't mean to sound cynical about Science (ha, it must sound like it), only the prevailing attitude it engenders. This culture obviously benefits immensely from Science turning its findings into useful goods of all kinds. Steve -- In theosophia@yahoogroups.com, leonmaurer@a... wrote: > Steve, > I think it would be more pertinent to answer you below in the form of a > dialogue in response to: > Message: 3 > > Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 14:16:22 -0000 > From: "Steven Levey" > Subject: Re: Digest Number 73 > > > Leon-I have to admire your thoroughness in your critique of the > article. > > [LM] Thanks. Once I get wound up in trying to explain any point or > conclusion based on my theory of ABC -- which doesn't deviate in one iota > from the occult metaphysics taught ("in the words and between the lines") in > the Secret Doctrine -- I like to dot every i and cross every t while avoiding > any theosophical jargon. Especially, the difficult to define Sanskrit words. :-) > > [SL] However, do you really think that anyone in Modern Science will > really be able to satisfy all of the criteria necessary to actually > describe the occult existence of something which actually exists > within "spiritual" Space? I mean, you have to admit, he has done > well. And when he leaves the "gyron" creation up to Newton's God, > isn't he really saying Karma? I mean a number of very intuitive men > such as Newton were lacking terminology for what they "felt", and did > the best they could. Even Karl Boehme, the Swiss Occultist used the > term "God" to describe the Law of Karma. It was just the only > language he had (German) and needs to be taken in the context of his > other explanations. > > [LM] Of course, science will never be able to describe any occult existence > of the inner fields -- so long as they base their description on objective > evidence. However, there's no reason why such existence can't be described > mathematically as well as logically from a scientifically valid geometric and > topological point of view -- so that non theosophists can understand it. And, > also, it could be described scientifically if the physicists would admit > the validity of subjective evidence. > > Remember, HPB said that everything in the universe was "electrical" in > nature, and she also left no gaps between the abstract source of both > consciousness and matter and the first emanation of the "abstract motion" or > spinergy that formed the first phenomenal fields of material substance or triune > monadic "fields of consciousness" which, in turn, ultimately involved through five > iterations into the initial dual 7-fold nature of the primal universe. "The three, > the one, the four, the one, the five, the twice seven, the sum total" -- to > quote the Book of Dzyan (which, in fact, is what the whole Secret Doctrine is > based on). > > Wasn't the whole purpose of HPB's presentation of a scientific theosophical > synthesis designed to eliminate the vagaries and misconceptions that those > mystic philosophers had engendered by their loose language and references > to "God" as the "creator"? And, didn't she make great effort to give us a > thorough and complete glossary that explained all the foreign term she was > forced to use because of the limitations of the English language and the > primitiveness of science during her time? Today, however, with the advent and > progressive development of modern and post modern physics and cosmology, its a > whole new ball game. I'm not much interested in trying to explain theosophical > metaphysics to those theosophists who can read the SD and find it out for > themselves -- except in terms that can help them transmit this knowledge in > the "language of this age" to the non theosophically educated masses. Isn't that the > whole purpose of revealing this teaching to the modern world? > > [SL] Also, the broad concept of Akasa says that it is all that there is > in terms of "field", although it contains elements of more and more > material "weight" as this field is inhabited by thinking beings who > therefore, populate that field with a predominance of materially > oriented thought. It is this predominant egocentricity which > determines the density of what we call Astral, by attracting > appropriately "weighty" elementals, which is really the "lower" > Akasa. The Buddhi, as it exists as a "seventh" (called the sixth > Universal principle) of great nature, is as much Akasa as is the > Human Buddhi. IN this sense all of the principles are really an > aggregate of Akasa or Muliprakriti (Root Cosmic Substance), and it is > animated or inflated by Purusha (The Great Breath), which is really > Atman, even as it permeates each incarnation as Consciousness, using > the Akasa as appropriate vehicle. (Again, whose density is determined > by either the lack of or existence of egoity). > > I think the article postulates a "measurement" of egoity by the > number of "gyrons" which I think is his way of naming, what in > Theosophy, are called the elementals. > > [LM] I think you are stretching these "gyrons" far past their scientific > reality. They start, like all of modern material science, at the beginning of the > so called "Big Bang" -- which is the visible and metric "appearance" of this > physical universe, and makes no mention of the Big bangs on the higher planes > as they first awakened in their own higher order spheres of hyperspace. > Thus, while the "gyrons" may relate to the advanced physics based on scien tific > materialism, they have no validity insofar as explaining the nature or origin of > consciousness and its relationship to the fields of matter that constitute > the spiritual, mental, astral and physical "bodies" of either the Dhyan Chohans > or the elementals -- not to mention all the "beings" between and beyond them. > IMO, to stretch these physical gyrons to comprehend the nature of egoity of > all the descending beings is going a bit too far. > > Egoity, on the other hand, from a theosophical POV, is rooted in the > reflected and fundamentally "empty" zero-points themselves, and not in their > surrounding spinergy or abstract motion (momentum) that gave birth to all these > descending and ascending "fields of consciousness." On the higher planes of reality, > both Solar and Universal, these "empty" zero-points represent the "selves" of > the Dhyan Chohans or the Solar Pitris. On the lower planes of planetary > life, they represent the Lunar Pitris, and ultimately, the self in each human > being, as well as the "individuality" or point of potential consciousness within > each lower being, down to the smallest quantum particle, as well as the > "elementals"... All of whose superficial actions are reflected in the next higher > astral fields and eventually down (or up) to the Akasha -- that, as vibrational > patterns within (or on) their (non substantial) "spinergy," carries the eternal > record -- which, as "information," is not related to any particular > phenomenal field in their fundamental (substantial) structures... Except, in that these > "structures" or membranes of primal force coenergetically "carry" or modulate > those informational patterns as they transfer from one field to the other -- > with the zero-point "spinergy" of the spiritual field being the "carrier" of > the final eternal Akashic record. This conforms analogously with all the laws > of electricity, even down to the way radio waves "carry" the informational > modulations of our TV shows and our cell phones. So, there's nothing mysterious > in all that. > > In essence, this Akashic field of more or less eternal memory of the actions > or experiences occurring on any field surface or plane, can only be stored in > the "spinergy" at the zero-point center of origination of each field -- that, > in turn, reflects back to the primal zero-point-instant (the "ultimate > division of time" on the spiritual plane) they all originated from. As above, so > below. To see it this way, in the only way that theosophy will ever be able to > become scientifically valid in the eyes of ordinary people. And, by so > understanding, eliminate its "mysticism" engendered by the theosophical jargon that > prevents them from comprehending the scientific basis of karma and reincarnation, > or the universality of the fundamental laws of cycles and periodicity upon > which these "processes" and all the laws of nature are based upon. > > Hope this covers it, > > Best wishes, > > Leon From silva_cass@yahoo.com Fri Dec 17 21:07:43 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 16867 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 05:07:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 05:07:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.77) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 05:07:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 84675 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Dec 2004 05:07:33 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=UAZTz4KC9/MRKhaNjzOn62gCjRkm4+z8O4SUTqCEOOBJzk5QhMc/8nq1+gVkcUNYrinBs4c0249o4qTEKqIKpKZIcLWHJz6M73CCjZtOmkSHM7YqviCDk3av3npNjVNadjIQ841KQCS+XscOGqp+gE5LAdPALfuTmXx8PCiJGxM= ; Message-ID: <20041218050733.84673.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:07:33 PST Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:07:33 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.77 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World That's hard to get right drunk! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Same to you Andrew Smith wrote: Salaam [Xmas] 'alaikum and 'Alaisum Salaalm to all my (forrmer?) friends 'Asalaam Alaikum," (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "La ilaha il'Allah!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Fri Dec 17 21:11:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75485 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 05:11:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 05:11:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90105.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.76) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 05:11:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 34928 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Dec 2004 05:11:17 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Z9D8wSw7mbMoInWtP4cselQY4XmXD4qtMsDIUQT4xsYu6R7EKBok63etG5JjvWw5gLCpzi0TwC1/I/2ZmY2ImcJgHqesKiVn8HWoLOKXHPK8rDZ1Xtdtd3OXd/tPzK442gvHVBLJHfgRoyy7fV1MqfIBBVs85DuyhRjGScZzLTI= ; Message-ID: <20041218051117.34926.qmail@web90105.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90105.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:11:17 PST Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:11:17 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <41C3133A.10703@idirect.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.76 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World How fractal evolution works - part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Welcome back Mauri wrote: leonmaurer@aol.com wrote, in part: > How fractal evolution works...=20 > This won't occur until scientists realize that consciousness (as awarenes= s=20 > and will or intent) is a universal aspect of fundamental reality related = to the=20 > zero-point itself... That is everywhere (contiguous on the highest level = of=20 > zero-point energy) and is the central origin of all fields of force... Wh= ile=20 > being the basis of the so called "entanglement" or "action at a distance"= between=20 > fundamental quantum particles on any level. With this ultimate understand= ing=20 > they will also be able to synthesize information theory with relativity a= nd=20 > quantum theories, along with recent theories of Aether physics, plasma=20 > electrodynamics, holographic paradigm, etc., and come up with an entirely= new and=20 > synthetic scientific (physics, biology, cosmology, physiology, etc.) para= digm.=20 >=20 > When all this is accomplished, science will be able to finally merge with= =20 > religion... And, the rest of Mankind can go about learning these fundamen= tal=20 > truths, absorbing them (along with the eternality of spirit or self, and = the unity=20 > and connectedness of all that they imply) into their souls, and cleaning = up=20 > its act (that is now driving the world toward it ultimate destruction). >=20 > Best wishes, >=20 > Leon Maurer > http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics Leon, those kinds of efforts remind me=20 of the efforts of those "gods" like=20 Osiris during the "First Time" (Zep=20 Tepi) in ancient Egypt. So maybe if you=20 were to build a few impressive pyramids=20 or some kind of equally impressive=20 things, as well, would that help to=20 impressive the natives that more is=20 going on than meets the average native=20 eye ... ? Not that your ABC's might not=20 necessarily be seen as impressive=20 enough, maybe, in some sense, maybe ...=20 but then if your ABC's get the same kind=20 of interpretive treatment that the=20 pyramids have had from orthodox=20 Egyptologists, well ... ^:-/ ... Good Luck, anyway. Mauri PS Been reading Hancocks FINGERPRINTS=20 OF THE GODS, lately. Fascinating. Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! =96 Get yours free!=20=20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Fri Dec 17 21:14:02 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44062 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 05:14:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 05:14:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.81) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 05:14:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 90948 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Dec 2004 05:13:01 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=cVlvc6sbETC8HSNw19ukLmoAPhrv7ip7x5zE280vWh/gdFLwCaBiy/t9Kubf5H5/isHLAtv8OYLNtApHO3H1itwwqK+ToLHRIDgobG6Q3BYoqRJ9e2MWfwL3NK6lu057dRlgThwNHZnPnkVVeM5uNF0nQGsY+TTn2MnjI7CaxuA= ; Message-ID: <20041218051301.90946.qmail@web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:13:01 PST Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:13:01 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <41C30E8A.80401@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.81 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Errors in the primary literature X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Need time for this one! Bart Lidofsky wrote: Cass Silva wrote: > As these ideas were so revolutionary at the time and HPB was not a > native english speaker or writer of english, language > misinterpretations may have occured which were cleared up by > KootHoomi. I do not believe that the truth was misinterpreted, but > there arose a need for words to describe the undescribable and when > this happens the words are misinterpreted but never the message. That is why I use the following rule in reading the primary literature: If the Secret Doctrine differs from current scientific knowledge, I look for the following: 1) Am I making assumptions which are not necessarily warranted? 2) Is there a way of interpreting the words to conform with current scientific knowledge? 3) Is there any evidence that this comes from information that was received second-hand, which is incorrect? For example, in Mahatma Letter #65 (by the way, anybody who wants to do serious Theosophical research should get a copy of THEOSOPHICAL CLASSICS; for $24.95, it's an incredibly useful tool, containing ISIS UNVEILED, THE SECRET DOCTRINE, THE MAHATMA LETTERS, THE COLLECTED WRITINGS OF H.P.B., and several other sources): "What does modern science know of force proper, or say the forces, the cause or causes of motion? How can there be such a thing as potential energy, i.e., an energy having latent inactive power since it is energy only while it is moving matter, and that if it ever ceased to move matter it would cease to be, and with it matter itself would disappear?" The reason why I often use this statement as an example is that it clearly shows that the Koot Hoomi is clearly using an incorrect definition of the term, "potential energy". Give the definition that he is using, he is most probably correct, but if you ignore the definition, then he is wrong. There IS such a thing as potential energy, but it is NOT what is being described. So, applying the three tests: 1) One might assume that Koot Hoomi is personally familiar with then-current knowledge of physics, and knew what was meant by the term "potential energy." 2) By looking at the definition rather than the term, it DOES fit with current scientific knowledge. 3) Since this was an answer to a letter written by a non-physicist, it is not unreasonable that the letter contained the term "potential energy" with the incorrect definition. It has been theorized, and has so far stood up to all experimentation, that humans can only think in terms of symbols. The problem with symbols is that they can be manipulated into something self-contradictory, and therefore meaningless. For example: The sentence on the next line is false. The sentence on the previous line is true. We appear to have a paradox. What we have is a bunch of glowing phosphors on a screen, or a bunch of drops of inks on a piece of paper, that appear to create a meaningful pattern, but in fact create a meaningless pattern. While I would not go as far as the late philosopher, Jacques Derrida, in his theories of Deconstructionism, he DID have a good basic point that language is always ambiguous. Bart Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samblo@cs.com Sat Dec 18 01:21:52 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59764 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 09:21:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 09:21:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m19.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.11) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 09:21:50 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.f7.460e4ef2 (4196) for ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 04:21:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 04:21:45 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.11 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Bart, Thanks for reposting the information in the interest of all of us. John From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 18 05:35:03 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 39472 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 13:35:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 13:35:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 13:35:02 -0000 Received: from [209.179.146.7] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cfejb-0005gw-G9; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:35:02 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE; b=P7KUfgh41cxPNqyz/kgS00hwK4AjXG/kJdtuq5eRP3jaRJfXNkMkFB6rJrLg24en; To: Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 05:34:38 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c4e506$5f926290$0792b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <200412161057.1cF0OHJC3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79d7d97d2f54aa71d6ba779132ba162bf9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.146.7 Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 What ? Dallas ===================== -----Original Message----- From: samblo@cs.com [mailto:samblo@cs.com] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 10:58 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Old photos Have a look at these. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 18 05:36:52 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86833 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 13:36:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 13:36:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 13:36:51 -0000 Received: from [209.179.146.7] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cfel5-0005gw-HZ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:36:41 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE; b=bjl3vXKOQv3PMqwwU3vhZzhtgbUgzGfbR1xkbGzA9aqMTusiDT1pvetL2VNADx+U; To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 05:34:38 -0800 Message-ID: <000d01c4e506$960b8b80$0792b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79f1ca3629eb8e88b00b9ec3c45262cc57350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.146.7 Subject: Re: ASTRAL BODY SOURCE & TRANSFORMATIONS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 ASTRAL BODY SOURCE & TRANSFORMATIONS To isolate this process of determining the source and need for an "Astral Body" within the physical form requires a study of the SECRET DOCTRINE. In SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I we are given (p. 181) as a hint the fact that evolution is three-fold : (1) spiritual, (2) psychic, and (3) physical. We have to follow these lines of development, and in so doing the history o= f our past is to be found. Here are some notes on the cycles of evolution that involve each immortal Monad [ATMA-BUDDHI or Spirit / Matter unit] in its innumerable incarnations= , called in the SECRET DOCTRINE the ROUNDS (each such "Round" being a circlin= g through the 7 GLOBES) -- see diagram on SECRET DOCTRINE, I, p. 200. In each Round a particular faculty is perfected, analogous to the sequence of the PARAMITAS given in The VOICE OF THE SILENCE (Fragment III, p. 52-3) There is also a correspondence to the 7 PRINCIPLES of Man on which a posting, with details can be sent. (S D I 157-8) A "Round" consists of 7 "Globes" and again, in each of these the sub-facult= y relating to the "Round" is brought to its perfection by numerous incarnations. Each of these Paramitas (virtues) are said to correspond to the 7 "Globes" pictured in the Diagram of the S D. [S D I 200, 157-8; II 596 ] The future, we are told, leads us all to a "Moment of Choice" [S D I 247, 265; II 149, 249, 261, 300-1; M L p. 47] where humanity has to choose whether it will continue its evolution spiritually, in harmony with brotherly cooperation, justice, and mercy for all -- compassion, is the right word. Each individual is now engaged in making this momentous determination.=20 We have to understand that in this the Fourth Round, and particularly on Globe [D] there is a recapitulation of the evolutionary stages already passed through in the three earlier ROUNDS.=20=20 Our present is GLOBE D, Fourth Round. It stands alone and is a balance position., It corresponds to Paramita [ 4 ] VIRAGA: and is three-fold: 1 indifference to pleasure as to pain, 2 illusion conquered, 3 truth alone perceived. [VOICE OF THE SILENCE, p. 52 3rd Fragment] If we look at S D I 200 and the diagram there, we will see that the progress of future evolution for all beings, leads from GLOBE D spiritually, up to Globes E, F, and G. [Higher Manas, Buddhi, Atma] These Globes [ E, F, G ] correspond to the last 3 Paramitas: 5 VIRYA (dauntless energy that fights its way to the supernal truth out of the mire of lies terrestrial);=20 6 DHYANA (whose golden gate leads the Narjol towards the realm of Sat eternal and its ceaseless contemplation} and, [Narjol -- see Gloss: pp 188= , 225, 381] 7 PRAJNA (the key which makes of a man a God, creating him a Bodhisattva, son of the Dhyanis.) Those who are intuitive may draw from this a concept of what lies in store for each of us. FIRST 3 RACES OF MANKIND - AN OVER-VIEW =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D There is probably no part of the Secret Doctrine which offers a more startling contrast to the opinions of modern men, than the information laid before us in reference to the origin of mankind on earth.=20=20 As a fundamental idea we are to consider each human is an immortal being. = =20 It reincarnates (under the Law of Karma) so as to acquire knowledge and wisdom through experience. Each incarnation may be considered to be like a "day" spent in learning in the vast "School" of continuous Earth-life.=20 It considers a three-fold process:=20=20 1) SPIRITUAL, (considered as ATMA-BUDDHI of the conjoined eternal "PRINCIPLES," and forming the stable, eternal, base of Ideals -- of altruism , universality, impersonality, universal LAW, and undeviating mora= l rectitude);=20=20=20 2) of the PSYCHICAL (considered as the duality of Buddhi-Manas and Kama-Manas) a condition wherein there is the progressive development of moral responsibility by the Monad considered as a psycho-mental entity -- where virtue is perceived and invariably acted on; and=20 3) of a 'PHYSICAL FORM' which is permanent, stable, and responsive to ever= y need of the fully conscious, living, spiritual and purified psycho-mental Man {Buddhi-Manas}. - this, latter, may be called the "permanent astral, or "causal body." [S D I 181-2] Neither common knowledge, nor science, furnishes us with particulars of primeval man that may be at all comparable with the scheme of development exposed in the SECRET DOCTRINE, of mankind in this, the Fifth RACE, of the Fourth GLOBE, in the Fourth ROUND. In the SECRET DOCTRINE, we are provided with a survey of the steps of the process of an intermeshed three-fold human development, but anterior to the Fourth Round H.P.B. offers only some glimpses. There, the history of the world in the first Three "Rounds," and the pre-human forms and existences associated therewith are treated.=20 In this short survey, the progress of the Monad that (in ROUND 4, GLOBE D) has now entered the "human (MANASIC) stage" (of you, I, and all of us). After passing through these early stages, it is now surveyed in the positio= n just passed the mid-point of its "Fourth Round." (S D I 150 fn)=20 We note that H.P.B. states that we are all the same Egos who went by the process of reincarnation through the periods of experience called the first three Races (of the 4th ROUND) - those preceding were named the "Hyperborean," the Lemurians, the Atlanteans, and now, our Fifth "Race" is named the "Aryan" [or 'noble'] stage of humanity. Among all those who read this, it is taken for granted, that the Three Fundamentals of the SECRET DOCTRINE=20 [ 1. UNIVERSAL SPIRIT or DEITY,=20=20 2. UNIVERSAL and JUST LAW, and=20=20 3. UNIVERSAL EVOLUTION by all the immortal MONADS]=20=20 have been studied, understood, (S D I pp. 13-20] and will be remembered a= t every stage. The following, is applicable to the intelligent consciousness [ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS] residing in the physico-astral form of every man and woman on our earth.=20=20 This survey begins in the dawn of time represented by the opening of the present Manvantara. It is a reincarnation of a long succession of earlier ones. We see that the SECRET DOCTRINE traces anthropogenesis down to a period, which, to a student of Theosophy, is almost a recent one, the establishment of Man as a being plunged in learning the value exhibited by its existence in a cooperative environment. That is, in many ways, the daily contrasts of attitude and perception that bodies of male and female sexes provide.=20=20 The chief difficulty is considering the history of the human race at those ancient points where the present world of 'western' science and history is ignorant. Because of this, and because of inaccurate speculations based on a selected few physical relics and fossils being used as an index for the presumed intelligence of forms in the past, there is difficulty in giving any intelligible description of the appearance of the earliest beings from whom our present physical mankind has, during the lapse of untold ages, graduall= y been developed.=20 Occultism states that in this Round mankind as a "form," first appeared; and all forms were subsequently derived from this primitive model. One of the statements is that the ape-form was derived as a specialization of the primitive human form. [The first law of evolutionary Science declares that = a "specialized" form (such as that of an ape) can not generate one more primitive (such as a human). It can only descend from such a form. Thus, th= e ape-form "descended" (was derived) from the more primitive man-form.] For those commencing the study of Theosophy, the subject might have been made easier to illustrate, if the origin of Man had been started at this, our own time, and retrogressed from there. We are in the Fifth "Race" of th= e Fourth "Round." Apart from the SECRET DOCTRINE and a few hints of myth, lor= e and tradition, no trace of a connected history of the origination of a "Fifth Race" exists.=20=20 Modern (western) civilization has no coherent historical narrative extendin= g prior to a time earlier that about 4,000 B, C, -- or about 6.000 years; while the Fifth Race alone has had (teaches the SECRET DOCTRINE) an independent existence for more than a million years; [S D II p. 10; M L 150] and modern science, in its latest speculations postulates the antiquit= y of mankind as a physical form being at most a couple of million of years. [Leaky - Olduvai] Nor can any history previous to 6,000 years be recognized as, for instance, in the scanty reference to Atlantis (mentioned by Plato, who died 347 B.C.)= . And even he gives no date of its disappearance. In the SECRET DOCTRINE and the MAHATMA LETTERS [pp. 151, 155] this was fixed at 9,564 B. C. (in 1882). Every reference to Atlantis has for centuries been derided, but onl= y recently a few authorities have considered the possibility of the event of the submergence of the home of a past nation beneath the Atlantic ocean. [see Submerged extensive ruins in the Caribbean Sea.]=20 The three earliest "Root Races" of this present "Fourth Round" on the Fourt= h "Globe" are associated with a "home" of its own; and so, too, are the later Races. These lands were given names for easier reference. [S D II pp. 2 - 12] One of the titles accorded to the "First Race" of "Spiritual Entities" was: "the Sons of Will and Yoga," Their home is the "Imperishable Sacred Land." It is located geologically in the "Hyperborean regions."=20 The Second Race, the "Sweat Born," dwelt on the "Great Hyperborean Land." The Third Race, the "Egg Born," in its early days, and which, developing later on into beings with sex, developed on the vast crescent shaped continent of "Lemuria."=20 The Fourth Race dwelt primarily on a mid-Atlantic continent; the Fifth Race= , [Aryan] developed on the continents that have toady, an appearance resembling the geography of the earth as we now know it. It is said that tremendous changes of levels, of hills and valleys, of the seas and rivers, have taken place even in its geologic course of existence. The "Imperishable Sacred Land," the continent of the First Race is said to be the only portion of the earth's surface continuing permanently through millions of years of subsequent development, and it will remain so until th= e end of the Manvantara -- through each Round -- until it bears the final spiritualized form of the divine men. It is said that: "from the dawn to th= e close of twilight of a day of Brahma, the Pole Star has its watchful eye upon it." The continent used by the Second Race, known as the Hyperborean, that is, beyond the Northern, or Polar region, comprised what we know now as Norther= n Asia, it stretched southward from the Northern Polar district in undefined promontories. In those distant times it knew no winter, and was an abode o= f ethereal mildness, fabled by the Greeks to be the dwelling-place of Apollo = - a glyph of the life-giving sun. The Third Race, marked by entire changes of substance, structure and being, grew on Lemuria (a name adopted from P. L. Sclater (1860), but not the real name). The Pacific ocean now covers much of this continent, whose dry land, including part of modern Africa, extended in a great crescent shape from Spitzbergen in the Arctic to Australia and New Zealand in the south. I= n the language of modern geology it was named a "pre-tertiary formation." = =20 Atlantis, (used by the "Fourth Race") followed, developed and disappeared a= s a unit before the end of the Miocene period. The Fourth Race Atlanteans, and the rise and progress of the seven branches of the Fifth (our) Race during the more recent thousands of years (actually a few millions) is yet to be described in great detail. We can see in the SECRET DOCTRINE that important assistance is rendered by the Occultist to science, by an ordered use of reasoned analogy.=20 The origin of spiritual, psychical and physiological mankind is a subject o= n which the clearest light is shed in the second volume of the SECRET DOCTRINE. If we study the physical life history of modern man from ovum to maturity we may note most of the stages through which the physical development of the human race has passed.=20 It shows how a simple living being can grow and multiply by division. Our microscopes show us this. The child becomes physically, equal to the parent= s and the parents do not die. From this most simple type of reproduction, nature still produces every form of differentiation, in a process well regulated by evident internal Law, called budding. The mass of new cells become a layer, the layer divides into three. In them is laid the backbone and the centers of life energy for the future being; blood vessels, nerves and all the specialized organs becoming when finally organized, the perfect man of matter, inspired by its model: the astral for= m (which always acts from within, as the personal mold of the human being in formation), and this, in turn, is vivified by the individual life essence, Prana, guided by the all powerful hand of individual and personal Karma. In this way, the SECRET DOCTRINE shows how the human race in this, the fourth Round, originates (and continues to originate, materially) from the magnetic and karmic power of its former Chhayas (shadows). Humanity, arising in the First Race of the fourth Globe of this, the Fourth Round, some three hundred million years ago, according to the SECRET DOCTRINE, constituted the "Race" named the "Sons of Will and Yoga." This i= s group also known of as the Agnishwatta Pitris -- divine, spiritual beings -= - the "Fathers" and the "Instructors" of primordial mankind. [S D II 167] Physically, men of the First Race were the shadows of Shadows; they were shadows of the astral bodies of the Lunar Pitris, that is, those Monads who were, as a host, considered to be our "ancestors," and representing the perfection of development on the "Moon-Chain of Globes."=20=20 The "Moon-Chain of Globes" furnished the earth (its 'child') with its first human envelopes - formless shadows -- derived from the astral forms of the most advanced Monads of that preceding sphere (whose dead shell is now the Moon). The primeval form of man was a "Linga Sharira" (an astral form), warmed into life by Prana, the life essence from the interior Spiritual Sun (the ATMA) of each "Man."=20=20 It took three and a half "Races" [in time on this, the Fourth Globe] to perfect the "descent into matter" to its present, grossest point.=20=20 Mindless, speechless, bodiless, these senseless bhutas (phantoms), were too ethereal to be percipient of, or affected by any convulsions of Nature. Age= s passed, and the material body grew denser as the astral consolidated, and so, today, the material body is consolidated out of its astral model. It is taught at that time they were still spiritually fireless, practically deathless, were luminous - incorporeal - aeriform - mindless shadows, which the Lunar Pitris had "breathed out" (developed and emanated). These Lunar Pitris [fathers], divine in their spiritual nature, were able t= o oversee, without interference, the natural development of forms to the end of the Third Round.=20 But the essential link in every Monad between Spirit and Matter remained to be forged. MANAS (personal mind) and KAMA (desires and passions) had to be given time to assimilate one another, and learn to make conjoined progress. The Man-Monad of Mind, self-controlled, and controlling the forces of Kama, needed to be evolved. This is our present stage. [S D II pp. 79-81, 93-96, 109-110] The Monad, ATMA-BUDDHI, the EGO, or the Higher Man, is said to be a Ray of the Universal Monad, born of MAHAT [Universal Mind Essence]. It brooded ove= r this spectral form, which, because of the absence of Manas was unconscious on our plane, and, was only a senseless shell; a-manasa. The Higher Man (Buddhi-Manas), we now recognize, was "afar off." The Mind, Manas, the Human Soul (Kama-Manas), was still absent. The Kama -- passions -- were still at rest, undeveloped. This almost inconceivable First Race passed on into the Second Race without either begetting it, or procreating it, and without what we call death. A thorough transformation occurred; as the ancient records say, "they passed by together, they ceased and others took their places."=20=20 Occultism (using its mystic symbology) mentions twelve classes of creative powers, of which four reached "perfection" by the end of the Manvantara, th= e "Great Age;" a fifth is ready to reach it; and seven others always acting under the Law of Karma, act on the globes of our planetary chain.=20=20 Old Hindu books mention Seven Groups of Pitris, or "Ancestors;" and two distinct classes - those who possess the "Sacred Fire" and those without it= . The higher class are called the Agnishwatta Pitris, they were devoid of creative energy, because too pure and divine.=20=20 A lower class called the Barhishad Pitris, were possessed of creative energy, these are "Lunar spirits," who were devoid of the higher Mahat-mic element and could not form a conscious, divine, man-god on earth. This faculty, conscious divinity, the higher group, the Agnishwatta Pitris could give. In the meantime, acting under Karma, the Barhishad Pitris, did provid= e an astral form on which a human physical body could be consolidated later.= =20 The Agnishwatta Pitris, or Fire Dhyanis (The WISE), are the heart of the Dhyan Chohanic "Lodge," and it is they who, later on, incarnate in the Thir= d Race, bringing to them Manas, and by this link between the higher and the lower principles, render Man a perfect septenary, as we now know him. [S D II 167] Regarding the "Second Race," whose denser forms gradually replaced the shadowy forms used by the First Race, we should recall we are viewing a period of the descent of the human "spiritual Principles" into matter. It is taught: the First Men were spiritual within and ethereal without; while the Second Race was "Psycho-spiritual within, and Ethero-physical without." Many shapes were used and their forms were (to us) gigantic. These semi-human monsters reproduced themselves by budding, gemmation, and by expansion and the separation of their own material, and, they were named the: "sweat born."=20=20 Still, we are told there was no "death," only transformation, the older being giving up its body to form newer beings, and it continued to exist with them.=20=20 This form of reproduction was asexual: still, at that time, there was no principle of Kama, no individual will, nor a personal "body of desire." These forms were produced without thought or desire, unconsciously under Karmic Law, even as some lowest forms of animal life are today. In the very latest stages of the of the Second Race. We are told there dawned the primitive, weak spark of understanding, and also, sounds began t= o be heard, sounds of a developing language were heard in tones like the vowels, soft and fluent. Passing from these glimpses of the first two races, we reach in the Third Race a more concrete stage passed through in the "forms" of humanity, and w= e obtain a deeper insight into the modes and progress of physical and psycho-mental evolution. The ages progressed, and we, who were then in the Third Race, whose domain was Lemuria, and whose presiding powers were associated with Lohitanga and Sukra - Mars and Venus.=20=20 Lemuria, we are told, was destroyed at last by fire, subterranean convulsions broke up the ocean floors, giving vent to the concealed fires o= f the earth's interior. Its successor, Atlantis, by contrast was overwhelmed by water, and the consequent floods followed successive disturbances in the axial rotation of the Earth. We have still, it is asserted, one link remaining with the ancient domain of Lemuria, the islands of New Zealand an= d parts of Australia, and southern California.=20 =20=20 In associating Lemuria with the dates accepted by the science of modern geology the SECRET DOCTRINE teaches that it was in the main destroyed 700,000 years before the Tertiary Period had begun. The Lemurian, Third Race [in time] is the most notable because its median period produced the more perfect physical man. To this man-form was grante= d MANAS, Mind, Consciousness; for the Lower Quaternary, as now we know it in the human being, was thus linked to the Supernal Triad of Atma, Buddhi and the Higher Manas.=20 The Monad, instead of merely brooding over the lower man, exhibited a more intimate connection with the earthly shell, and inspired it (with "desires" or, Kamic elements) to a state of consciousness of its own nature and powers, and rendered possible for spiritual aspirations to reach to the seats of the personal life.=20=20 Until then, there was no real "death." Until man possessed Kama, the source of desire; and until Manas was seated in the Septenary, the full effect of Karma could not appear, for moral responsibility did not yet exist. Karmaless there was no Nirvana to attain, no Kama Loka for the shell after death, no Devachanic interlude of peaceful rest. But with Kama [instinct, passion, emotion, desire] and its vagrant and fanciful tendencies to be controlled; and Manas, evolving full consciousnes= s on the plane of physical life, morality and the higher aspirations became apparent, while, as a contrast, selfishness, the desire to have and to hold= , made for the emergence of vice, selfishness, sinfulness and shame. These disharmonies began to attract and then meet with Karmic adjustment and punishment from the past.=20=20 By this impulse, nations drifted deeper into the illusions and limitations of matter, and heavier became the faults of those who chose the descending arc, and began to use degenerative moral processes. These we are told, continued through the Fourth Race when the most evil Karma was generated.= =20 Physically, we are taught, the Third Race exhibited a gradual change of reproduction, passing from the Sweat Born to Ovulation. Then, from a condition of androgyne being, development at last formed mankind into entities with reproductive contrast.=20=20 Human males and females (in physical bodies) became distinct beings, and modern mankind arose; and; it has so continued through millions of years.=20 Coincident with these changes, the body hardened, and all the internal organs became more perfect. The forms were still massive, gigantic, and the Secret Doctrine suggests somewhat ape-like. [S D I 187-9; II 185, 261-2]. Some of these changes are to be seen recapitulated foetal life.=20 Coincident with sex development, the Kamic (desires and passions) principle became dominant, for when the reproduction had been by gemmation, budding, or oviparous, it had been unconscious under the process of natural law; and not the conscious promptings of the animal passions which, now, were felt. The fully-developed Third Race man was of yellow complexion, a golden tint marked the nations; some scattered tribes of almost direct descent from the= m [that] still remain are in the interior of China.=20=20 At the close of the Third Race we may perceive a vast change in the constitution of physical man, in regard to his pristine state at the openin= g of the Fourth Round. To form an exterior "shell," an astral form (alone in the earliest first race) the material body was condensed. Life energy [Prana] supported and vivified by the addition of Kama, the principle of desire, love and all the passions, made the perishable "Lower Quaternary" complete:. The "Eternal Pilgrim" of the Upper Triad broods yet over it [fro= m within its 'prison'], but without union. [S D II 103, 243, 246-48, 585,] The SECRET DOCTRINE shows how this Divine Triad [ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS] became, by the descent of Manas into the perfected animal man-form, to occupy a closer connection with men of the Third Race [S D I 244-5; II 79, 176]. Th= e "Eternal Pilgrims," the Monads are these Manas-putras -- "Sons of Mind."=20 In evolution, under Karmic law, they have to pass through all experiences t= o attain by self-induced choice, to wisdom [S D I 534; II 113, 134fn, 275fn]; and, thus, to pass up the steep path of the spiritual cycle [GLOBES E, F, G.]. These, {the Divine Triad [ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS] } incarnate in th= e latter part of the Third Race, and transformed the mindless men into beings with minds and "consciousness."=20 With this advent the sure knowledge of good and evil was instilled. Legend and myth tell us that some of the fully developed latest Third Race men wer= e towering giants of godlike strength and beauty. They became the first Divin= e Instructors of Mankind [S D I 272-3], and the nations of the still late= r races looked back on these superior beings as the demigods, the hero deitie= s of a bygone golden age. Towards the end of this Third Race material progress grew. It was ruled and taught by these divine beings. Civilizations originated, cities and temples were founded; arts and sciences were cultivated. The simple vowel sounds used by the last Second Race men developed, and, in the Third Race, articulate speech began with mono-syllabic utterances. [S D II 198-200] Manas (the capacity to reason, think, imagine, remember, proceed logically) is link between the Quaternary of lower principles (Personality) and the divine Triad (INDIVIDUALITY). It was furnished by the Solar Pitris (Agnishwatta Pitris), the Divine Progenitors [S D II 94, 103, 164, 167, 243, 246-8, 585,] even as the original "form" was the gift of the Lunar Pitris or Astral-form progenitors. The three higher classes of Arupa (formless) Pitris supervised this change.=20 Many names have been given to these supernal beings: Agnishwatta, celestia= l ancestors, Sishta, Fire Dhyanis, Solar Pitris, Lords of Flame and the Heart of the Dhyan Chohanic Body. One-third of the Dhyanis, we are told by the Book of Dzyan, were doomed by Karmic law to re-incarnate upon this earth before attaining further perfection.=20 [S D II 94, 167, 246, 489, 585]=20 They are also called in a mysterious manner the Fifth Hierarchy presided over by Makara (the principality associated with the zodiacal sign of Capricornus). These "projected the spark," that served to impart Manas to the A-manasa, (mindless shells) of humanity. [S D I 233, 238, 246, 265, 275, 571; II 85]=20 We are told some of those who had refrained from incarnation hastened to do so and carry on their progress, and for this delay, they were made by Karma to repent of their procrastination; they incarnated in human-kind - lest worse evil should befall the already defiled earthly frames; and mankind recognized what had been the "sins" of the "mindless." [S D II 180, 185, 191-2, 688-9] These Third Race men may be viewed as forming three groups.=20=20 1. In the first the Lords of Flame who incarnated before the separation of the sexes, i.e., in Androgyne or Hermaphrodite man. These included those of whom ancient tradition speaks of as demigods, rishis, and heroes. 2. Secondly, the group of common humanity in each of whom a spark entered, in the far distant past of over eighteen million years, when a spark was given to each from the Solar divinity, of mind, of intellect, conscious on our plane. [S D I 150fn; II 69, 249] 3. Thirdly, there were the mindless, who brought into the world much sin and suffering, and strange forms of life; but who were later on joined to the second group. The SECRET DOCTRINE is a vast storehouse of history and doctrine, and its pages contain an explanation of many a myth.=20=20 In conclusion we must remember that when a "race," a "group," or "tribes" are mentioned we are dealing with the physical forms used by the immortal EGOS of the Monads -- the Immortal Pilgrims that we all are, and which are all developing together in a seemingly chaotic combination of both cooperation and selfish isolation.=20=20 Interlaced with these by Karma we will find, and we will also have to distinguish, between the Egoic (divine progress), which is to be disentangled from the psycho-manasic level of self-conscious indiscriminate Kamic development.=20 The Atlantean Fourth Race arose while the Third (Lemurian) faded into the past, and a vast concourse of forgotten nations came upon the scene of time= , flourished and passed away.=20 This caused an increasing separation between the higher groups and the lowe= r sub-races of the delayed group; between the "sons of light," and the "progeny of darkness."=20=20 >From the sons of light was developed the nascent civilization of Atlantis; from the low forms of Lemuria, reinforced by interbreeding with the more degenerate of the Atlanteans, sprang series of races, fitly comparable to and indeed the forerunners of the savage races we now know as Australians, certain wild tribes in China and Borneo, Bushmen and Negritos, etc.. A number of tribes and remnants have already disappeared as physical forms. Some groups have been badly decimated. Convulsions of nature made an end to Lemuria; and it is stated that its sinking began at the most northerly part, proceeded to the equatorial regions, and the last portion to disappear was adjacent to Ceylon, the Lank= a of the succeeding Atlantean continent.=20=20 In these profound changes of the earth's surface the Lemuro-Atlantean stock was saved, as by a divine interposition, by a Manu, a Noah: this substitution of a Fourth Race for a Third destroyed by a deluged world, is the foundation of such myths of the Chaldeans, of Genesis, and the Hindu Vaivasvata; a salvation, similarly repeated, millions of years later, when the Fourth Race was replaced by the Fifth after similar convulsions and a deluged world. DTB =20 From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 18 05:37:23 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 92312 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 13:37:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 13:37:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 13:37:20 -0000 Received: from [209.179.146.7] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CfelG-0005gw-To; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:36:59 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE; b=Ejk8BsiNpvqFi5HEvYYeQMGAOCODniQY5GO+Z6Nu1MDfhDZNgN5cGe3a9MjvJpME; To: "AAA-Dal" Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 05:34:38 -0800 Message-ID: <000e01c4e506$9ce19350$0792b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec793dc4b733f653fb17534ee182954e9a95350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.146.7 Subject: ASTRAL WORLD X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ON THE ASTRAL BODY AND THE ASTRAL WORLD Dec 17 2004 Re: Astral Projection, etc. WARNING; THEOSOPHY WARNS AGAINST DOING THIS. ===================================== THEOSOPHY teaches: 1 The Astral Light and the Astral Body exist. There are a vast number of entities that exist in the "Astral Sphere" fulfilling various functions there. They are known variously as (1) "elementals," (nature-spirits and powers), (2) elementaries ( living entities that embody and practice selfish, evil powers also know of as "black-magic"), and (3) several levels of high and divine Spiritual Men, ( known as Nirmanakayas, Bodhisattvas, Buddhas, Sages, Magi, Rishis, etc., who practice benevolence, generosity, wisdom, compassion, and embody all the altruistic and noble aspects of "white magic."). 2 The Astral Models serve as electro-magnetic force fields (or models) for all physical forms without exception. While physical forms constantly change, the astral models retain their shape more permanently. 3 The astral form of a man can sometimes, and in part, be dissociated from the physical. 4 THEOSOPHY warns that meddling by untrained and unprepared individuals with the Astral Body may cause by repercussion, severe dislocations in the physical -- resulting in ailments, both physical and psychic, as well as mental and consciousness aberrations. (Hence THEOSOPHY recommends that no practices be indulged in that involve the astral Body or the Astral Light.) 5 Channeling, mediumship, astral projection, clairvoyance, clairaudience, second-sight, apportation, the perceiving of "ghosts," are all phenomena and faculties associated with the Astral world. THEOSOPHY explains them, and gives clues to the nature of those processes. 6 Astral faculties are potent and dangerous in the hands of the un-initiated, and are not to be used as a "pass-time," or curiosity and amusement, or for personal "experiment," "trance," "metaphysical investigation," etc., except under the most rigid and controlled circumstances by those who KNOW that field in all details, and are morally, entirely PURE. 7 Hypnotism and mesmerism are powers that relate to the Astral sphere, body and world; and as such, severe damage to the psyche (mental faculties and capacity) of both patient and professor can result. DTB ============================== ASTRAL and PHYSICAL BODIES ( Theosophy teaches ) BODY AND ASTRAL BODY The physical body, as a mass of flesh, bones, muscles, nerves, brain matter, bile, mucous, blood, and skin is an object of exclusive care for too many people, who make it their "god" because they have come to identify themselves with it, meaning it only when they say "I." Left to itself it is devoid of sense, and acts in such a case solely by reflex and automatic action. This we see in sleep, for then the body assumes attitudes and makes motions which the waking man does not permit. It is like mother earth in that it is made up of an infinitesimal number of "lives." "LITTLE LIVES" (Monads in physical evolution,) Each of these lives is a sensitive point. Not only are there microbes, bacilli, and bacteria, but these are composed of others, and those others of still more minute lives. These lives are not the cells of the body, but make up the cells, keeping ever within the limits assigned by evolution to the cell. They are forever whirling and moving together throughout the whole body, being in certain apparently void spaces as well as where flesh, membrane, bones, and blood are seen. They extend, too, beyond the actual outer limits of the body to a measurable distance. ONE OF THE MYSTERIES OF PHYSICAL LIFE IS HIDDEN AMONG THESE "LIVES." Their action, forced forward by the Life energy -- called Prana or Jiva -- will explain active existence and physical death. They are divided into two classes, one the destroyers, the other the preservers, and these two war upon each other from birth until the destroyers win. In this struggle the Life Energy itself ends the contest because it is life that kills. This may seem heterodox, but in Theosophical philosophy it is held to be the fact. For, it is said, the infant lives because the combination of healthy organs is able to absorb the life all around it in space, and is put to sleep each day by the overpowering strength of the stream of life, since the preservers among the cells of the youthful body are not yet mastered by the other class. CAN THE "ASTRAL BODY" MOVE OUT OF THE "PHYSICAL BODY ?" In the ordinary man who has not been trained in practical occultism or who has not the faculty by birth, the astral body cannot go more than a few feet from the physical one. It is a part of that physical, it sustains it and is incorporated in it just as the fibers of the mango are all through that fruit. But there are those who, by reason of practices pursued in former lives on the earth, have a power born with them of unconsciously sending out the astral body. These are mediums, some seers, and many hysterical, cataleptic, and scrofulous people. Those who have trained themselves by a long course of excessively hard discipline which reaches to the moral and mental nature and quite beyond the power of the average man of the day, can use the astral form at will, for they have gotten completely over the delusion that the physical body is a permanent part of them, and, besides, they have learned the chemical and electrical laws governing in this matter. In their case they act with knowledge and consciously; in the other cases the act is done without power to prevent it, or to bring it about at will, or to avoid the risks attendant on such use of potencies in nature of a high character. THE ASTRAL BODY CONTAINS THE REAL SENSES OF PERCEPTION The astral body has in it the real organs of the outer sense organs. In it are the sight, hearing, power to smell, and the sense of touch. It has a complete system of nerves and arteries of its own for the conveyance of the astral fluid which is to that body as our blood is to the physical. It is the real personal man. There are located the subconscious perception and the latent memory, which the hypnotizers of the day are dealing with and being baffled by. "ASTRAL FORM" IS RELEASED AT DEATH FROM THE "PHYSICAL" So when the body dies the astral man is released, and as at death the immortal man -- the Triad -- flies away to another state, the astral becomes a shell of the once living man and requires time to dissipate. It retains all the memories of the life lived by the man, and thus reflexly and automatically can repeat what the dead man knew, said, thought, and saw. It remains near the deserted physical body nearly all the time until that is completely dissipated, for it has to go through its own process of dying. It may become visible under certain conditions. It is the spook of the spiritualistic seance-rooms, and is there made to masquerade as the real spirit of this or that individual. Attracted by the thoughts of the medium and the sitters, it vaguely flutters where they are, and then is galvanized into a factitious life by a whole host of elemental forces and by the active astral body of the medium who is holding the seance or of any other medium in the audience. From it (as from a photograph) are then reflected into the medium's brain all the boasted evidences which spiritualists claim go to prove identity of deceased friend or relative. These evidences are accepted as proof that the spirit of the deceased is present, because neither mediums nor sitters are acquainted with the laws governing their own nature, nor with the constitution, power, and function of astral matter and astral man. The Theosophical philosophy does not deny the facts proven in spiritualistic seances, but it gives an explanation of them wholly opposed to that of the spiritualists. And surely the utter absence of any logical scientific explanation by these so-called spirits of the phenomena they are said to produce supports the contention that they have no knowledge to impart. They can merely cause certain phenomena; the examination of those and deductions therefrom can only be properly carried on by a trained brain guided by a living trinity of spirit, soul, and mind. And here another class of spiritualistic phenomena requires brief notice. That is the appearance of what is called a "materialized spirit." THE "ASTRAL" FORMS THE "SPOOK" AFTER DEATH. Three explanations are offered: FIRST, that the astral body of the living medium detaches itself from its corpus and assumes the appearance of the so-called spirit; for one of the properties of the astral matter is capacity to reflect an image existing unseen in ether. SECOND, the actual astral shell of the deceased -- wholly devoid of his or her spirit and conscience -- becomes visible and tangible when the condition of air and ether is such as to so alter the vibration of the molecules of the astral shell that it may become visible. The phenomena of density and apparent weight are explained by other laws. THIRD, an unseen mass of electrical and magnetic matter is collected, and upon it is reflected out of the astral light a picture of any desired person either dead or living. This is taken to be the "spirit" of such persons, but it is not, and has been justly called by H. P. Blavatsky a "psychological fraud," because it pretends to be what it is not. And, strange to say, this very explanation of materializations has been given by a "spirit" at a regular seance, but has never been accepted by the spiritualists just because it upsets their notion of the return of the spirits of deceased persons. THE "ASTRAL BODY" AND PSYCHIC PHENOMENA. Finally, the astral body will explain nearly all the strange psychical things happening in daily life and in dealings with genuine mediums; it shows what an apparition may be and the possibility of such being seen, and thus prevents the scientific doubter from violating good sense by asserting you did not see what you know you have seen; it removes superstition by showing the real nature of these phenomena, and destroys the unreasonable fear of the unknown which makes a man afraid to see a "ghost." By it also we can explain the apportation of objects without physical contact, for the astral hand may be extruded and made to take hold of an object, drawing it in toward the body. When this is shown to be possible, then travelers will not be laughed at who tell of seeing the Hindu yogee make coffee cups fly through the air and distant objects approach apparently of their own accord untouched by him or anyone else. All the instances of clairvoyance and clairaudience are to be explained also by the astral body and astral light. The astral -- which are the real -- organs do the seeing and the hearing, and as all material objects are constantly in motion among their own atoms the astral sight and hearing are not impeded, but work at a distance as great as the extension of the astral light or matter around and about the earth. Thus it was that the great seer Swedenborg saw houses burning in the city of Stockholm when he was at another city many miles off, and by the same means any clairvoyant of the day sees and hears at a distance. THE "CELL" AND ITS MOLECULAR COMPONENTS. The "cell" is an illusion. It is merely a word. It has no existence as a material thing, for any cell is composed of other cells. What, then, is a cell ? It is the ideal form within which the actual physical atoms -- made up of the "lives" -- arrange themselves. As it is admitted that the physical molecules are forever rushing away from the body, they must be leaving the cells each moment. Hence there is no physical cell, but the privative limits of one, the ideal walls and general shape. THE "IDEAL" SHAPE SET BY THE ASTRAL BODY The molecules assume position within the ideal shape according to the laws of nature, and leave it again almost at once to give place to other atoms. And as it is thus with the body, so is it with the earth and with the solar system. Thus also is it, though in slower measure, with all material objects. They are all in constant motion and change. This is modern and also ancient wisdom. This is the physical explanation of clairvoyance, clairaudience, telepathy, and mind-reading. It helps to show us what a deluding and unsatisfactory thing our body is. THE "LIFE-FORCE" -- PRANA (breath). Although, strictly speaking, the second constituent of man is the ASTRAL BODY -- called in Sanskrit LINGA SARIRA -- we will consider Life Energy -- or Prana and Jiva in Sanskrit -- together, because to our observation the phenomenon of life is more plainly exhibited in connection with the body. Life is not the result of the operation of the organs, nor is it gone when the body dissolves. It is a universally pervasive principle. It is the ocean in which the earth floats; it permeates the globe and every being and object on it. It works unceasingly on and around us, pulsating against and through us forever. When we occupy a body we merely use a more specialized instrument than any other for dealing with both Prana and Jiva. Strictly speaking, Prana is breath; and as breath is necessary for continuance of life in the human machine, that is the better word. Jiva means "life," and also is applied to the living soul, for the life in general is derived from the Supreme Life itself. Jiva is therefore capable of general application, whereas Prana is more particular. It cannot be said that one has a definite amount of this Life Energy which will fly back to its source should the body be burned, but rather that it works with whatever be the mass of matter in it. We, as it were, secrete or use it as we live. For whether we are alive or dead, life-energy is still there; in life among our organs sustaining them, in death among the innumerable creatures that arise from our destruction. We can no more do away with this life than we can erase the air in which the bird floats, and like the air it fills all the spaces on the planet, so that nowhere can we lose the benefit of it nor escape its final crushing power. But in working upon the physical body this life -- Prana -- needs a vehicle, means, or guide, and this vehicle is the astral body. THE "ASTRAL BODY" HAS MANY NAMES: Linga Sarira" the "Design Body" There are many names for the Astral Body. Here are a few: Linga Sarira, Sanskrit, meaning design body, and the best one of all; ethereal double; phantom; wraith; apparition; doppelganger; personal man; perisprit; irrational soul; animal soul; Bhuta; elementary; spook; devil; demon. Some of these apply only to the astral body when devoid of the corpus after death. Bhuta, devil, and elementary are nearly synonymous; the first Sanskrit, the other English. With the Hindus the Bhuta is the Astral Body when it is by death released from the body and the mind; and being thus separated from conscience, is a devil in their estimation. They are not far wrong, if we abolish the old notion that a devil is an angel fallen from heaven, for this bodily devil is something which rises from the earth. It may be objected that the term Astral Body is not the right one for this purpose. The objection is one which arises from the nature and genesis of the English language, for as that has grown up in a struggle with nature and among a commercial people it has not as yet coined the words needed for designating the great range of faculties and organs of the unseen man. And as its philosophers have not admitted the existence of these inner organs, the right terms do not exist in the language. So in looking for words to describe the inner body the only ones found in English were the "astral body." This term comes near to the real fact, since the substance of this form is derived from cosmic matter or star matter, roughly speaking. But the old Sanskrit word describes it exactly -- Linga Sarira, the design body -- because it is the design or model for the physical body. This is better than "ethereal body," as the latter might be said to be subsequent to the physical, whereas in fact the astral body precedes the material one. ASTRAL SUBSTANCE IS A FINER AND VERY STRONG MATERIAL The astral body is made of matter of very fine texture as compared with the visible body, and has a great tensile strength, so that it changes but little during a lifetime, while the physical alters every moment. And not only has it this immense strength, but at the same time possesses an elasticity permitting its extension to a considerable distance. It is flexible, plastic, extensible, and strong. The matter of which it is composed is electrical and magnetic in its essence, and is just what the whole world was composed of in the dim past when the processes of evolution had not yet arrived at the point of producing the material body for man. But it is not raw or crude matter. Having been through a vast period of evolution and undergone purifying processes of an incalculable number, its nature has been refined to a degree far beyond the gross physical elements we see and touch with the physical eye and hand. THE ASTRAL MODEL IS THE PROTOTYPE OF THE PHYSICAL. The astral body is the guiding model for the physical one, and all the other kingdoms have the same astral model. Vegetables, minerals, and animals have the ethereal double, and this theory is the only one which will answer the question how it is that the seed produces its own kind and all sentient beings bring forth their like. Biologists can only say that the facts are as we know them, but can give no reason why the acorn will never grow anything but an oak except that no man ever knew it to be otherwise. But in the old schools of the past the true doctrine was known, and it has been once again brought out in the West through the efforts of H. P. Blavatsky and those who have found inspiration in her works. PHYSICAL BODY IS IN CONSTANT CHANGE. The body is considered by the Masters of Wisdom to be the most transitory, impermanent, and illusionary of the whole series of constituents in man. Not for a moment is it the same. Ever changing, in motion in every part, it is in fact never complete or finished though tangible. The ancients clearly perceived this, for they elaborated a doctrine called Naimittika [the correct Sanskrit term is Nitya] Pralaya, or the continual change in material things, the continual destruction. This is known now to science in the doctrine that the body undergoes a complete alteration and renovation every seven years. At the end of the first seven years it is not the same body it was in the beginning. At the end of our days it has changed seven times, perhaps more. And yet it presents the same general appearance from maturity until death; and it is a human form from birth to maturity. This is a mystery science explains not; it is a question pertaining to the cell and to the means whereby the general human shape is preserved. ASTRAL SUBSTANCE AND THE EVOLUTION OF THE EARTH This doctrine is, that in early times of the evolution of this globe the various kingdoms of nature are outlined in plan or ideal form first, and then the astral matter begins to work on this plan with the aid of the Life principle, until after long ages the astral human form is evolved and perfected. This is, then, the first form that the human race had, and corresponds in a way with the allegory of man's state in the garden of Eden. After another long period, during which the cycle of further descent into matter is rolling forward, the astral form at last clothes itself with a "coat of skin," and the present physical form is on the scene. This is the explanation of the verse of the book of Genesis which describes the giving of coats of skin to Adam and Eve. It is the final fall into matter, for from that point on the man within strives to raise the whole mass of physical substance up to a higher level, and to inform it all with a larger measure of spiritual influence, so that it may be ready to go still further on during the next great period of evolution after the present one is ended. "MODEL OF THE CHILD" IS FIRST IN ASTRAL SUBSTANCE. So at the present time the model for the growing child in the womb is the astral body already perfect in shape before the child is born. It is on this the molecules arrange themselves until the child is complete, and the presence of the ethereal design-body will explain how the form grows into shape, how the eyes push themselves out from within to the surface of the face, and many other mysterious matters in embryology which are passed over by medical men with a description but with no explanation. This will also explain, as nothing else can, the cases of marking of the child in the womb sometimes denied by physicians but well-known by those who care to watch, to be a fact of frequent occurrence. THE ASTRAL BODY SETS THE LIMITS OF GROWTH FOR THE PHYSICAL The growing physical form is subject to the astral model; it is connected with the imagination of the mother by physical and psychical organs; the mother makes a strong picture from horror, fear, or otherwise, and the astral model is then similarly affected. In the case of marking by being born legless, the ideas and strong imagination of the mother act so as to cut off or shrivel up the astral leg, and the result is that the molecules, having no model of leg to work on, make no physical leg whatever; and similarly in all such cases. But where we find a man who still feels the leg which the surgeon has cut off, or perceives the fingers that were amputated, then the astral member has not been interfered with, and hence the man feels as if it were still on his person. For knife or acid will not injure the astral model, but in the first stages of its growth ideas and imagination have the power of acid and sharpened steel. SLEEP RESTORES THE BALANCE OF LIFE FORCE These processes of going to sleep and waking again are simply and solely the restoring of the equilibrium in sleep and the action produced by disturbing it when awake. It may be compared with the arc-electric light wherein the brilliant arc of light at the point of resistance is the symbol of the waking active man. So in sleep we are again absorbing and not resisting the Life Energy; when we wake we are throwing it off. But as it exists around us like an ocean in which we swim, our power to throw it off is necessarily limited. Just when we wake we are in equilibrium as to our organs and life; when we fall asleep we are yet more full of life than in the morning; it has exhausted us; it finally kills the body. Such a contest could not be waged forever, since the whole solar system's weight of life is pitted against the power to resist focused in one small human frame. _______________________________ Note: In the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY, Mr. Judge reserves the last 2 chapters ( 16 and 17) to a discussion of what Theosophy has to offer on psychical phenomena and the place that the astral plays in mall extraordinary events. [Available as a book to be read "on-Line" at various Web-Sites. http://www.ULT.org and http://www.ult-la.org , and http://www.blavatsky.net makes this available to those interested.] ________________________________ Two more postings on this subject will follow: 1 Psychic Faculties 2 Astral evolution Offered by Dallas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 18 05:42:29 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 46294 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 13:42:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 13:42:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 13:42:29 -0000 Received: from [209.179.146.7] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CfenL-0005gw-04; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:38:51 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE; b=F1WvGuLqnPWPJcHEQh4yg7I3gqL9+QzJmm7diFZrVWny7HQb8rgKBuIRh9mSyjMV; To: "AAA-Dal" Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 05:34:38 -0800 Message-ID: <001801c4e506$e9318e40$0792b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7971a6049a880a8363b1c57fd672754249350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.146.7 Subject: FW: 90# on the phone X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec. 17, 2004 A WARNING Re: your PHONE number Passed on to be of assistance Dallas ========================================== -----Original Message----- From: Gerda Winkler [mailto:gerdawinkler@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 3:20 PM To: many unnamed recipients Subject: FW: 90# on the phone >From: "Alan Winkler" >To: gerdawinkler@hotmail.com >Subject: 90# on the phone >Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:48:00 +0000 > > PASS ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW > >I received a telephone call last evening from an individual >identifying himself as an AT&T Service technician who was conducting a >test on telephone lines. He stated that to complete the test I should >touch nine(9), zero(0), the pound sign (#), and then hang up. > > Luckily, I was suspicious and refused. > > Upon contacting the telephone company, I was informed that by >pushing 90#, you give the requesting individual full access to your >telephone line, which enables them to place long distance calls billed >to your home phone number. > > I was further informed that this scam has been originating from many >local jails/prisons. I have also verified this information with UCB >Telecom,Pacific Bell, MCI, Bell Atlantic and GTE. Please beware. > > DO NOT press 90# for ANYONE. > > The GTE Security Department requested that I share this information >with EVERYONE I KNOW. > > PLEASE pass this on to everyone YOU know. > > If you have mailing lists and/or newsletters from organizations you >are connected with, I encourage you to pass on this information to them. > > After checking with Verizon they said it was true, so do not dial >(9),zero(0), the pound sign # and hang up for anyone. > > PLEASE HIT THAT FORWARD BUTTON AND PASS THIS ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW > From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat Dec 18 07:24:57 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94524 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 15:24:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 15:24:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40914.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.211) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 15:24:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 97469 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Dec 2004 15:24:56 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=gee1g6UW+3aPxUhKxq/DSz+Y3ggGR9Ov3lEASprRRJbBGzCowdTGvkWWXglHk5TBaD3K4qc0qTF8DPVxRgAUlbzq5fod+hWsOr1xc+eVF+DMsXx/YAj4IKXhwnpW+3D4HcqCPhly2c2LB49irWMlRCsnx/5aopPtgx0qINQgb4Y= ; Message-ID: <20041218152456.97467.qmail@web40914.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40914.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 07:24:56 PST Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 07:24:56 -0800 (PST) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.78.211 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: The Fountain Source of Modern Theosophy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Inquirers and new students (as well as long time students) of Theosophy may find helpful the following essay: The Fountain Source of Modern Theosophy http://blavatskyarchives.com/moderntheosophy.htm Daniel http://hpb.cc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat Dec 18 07:43:52 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17646 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 15:43:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 15:43:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40905.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.202) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 15:43:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 11540 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Dec 2004 15:43:51 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=36g5ztZpX74Futo0dAClIf1hvYRIFDeVur3+Hw2hj1mv8vCTAgjptfBHyjmbtlPdM5jNxVvijDphoNMTmdA+3a3PsWEM4D7X8F7XLYKSQXWzzhNWbC9xaYf2S5m3lCoSXXBkOVO7+daEE6iw3MFh9Jvb9i9LcjBF7jcxodLBgwc= ; Message-ID: <20041218154351.11538.qmail@web40905.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40905.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 07:43:51 PST Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 07:43:51 -0800 (PST) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.78.202 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Since H.P. Blavatsky's death in 1891, numerous individuals have claimed contact with her Masters. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since Madame Blavatsky's death in 1891, numerous individuals have claimed contact with her Masters. For a partial list of claimants, see: http://blavatskyarchives.com/moderntheosophy.htm#Endnote For more background on this subject, see: http://blavatskyarchives.com/latermessengers.htm Daniel http://hpb.cc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mhart@idirect.ca Sat Dec 18 07:57:44 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13253 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 15:57:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 15:57:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.122) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 15:57:43 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.139] (helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Cfgra-0004VA-5H for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:51:22 +0000 Message-ID: <41C45298.3090609@idirect.ca> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 10:54:00 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on chi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.6 required=9.0 tests=HTML_60_70,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.122 From: Mauri Subject: re views of human evolution X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Dallas wrote, in part: <> Graham Hancock in his FINGERPRINTS OF THE GODS offers statements of geologists who date the Sphinx, Valley Temple, among others, as conclusively showing evidence of weathering patterns (vertical fissures and wearing of the megaliths up to 3 metres) from heavy rains which could only have occurred about the time of the melting of the ice towards the end to the ice age, about 13000 to 8000 BC (?), after which the area began to dry up. Orthodox Egyptologists don't seem to want to logically deal with such evidence, holding on to their linear views of human evolution. Page 486: < X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 38618 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 16:23:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 16:23:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40901.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.198) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 16:23:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 2393 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Dec 2004 16:23:31 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Pb/+SGWisMu0xSzD1Yk9qcuyc2/Uahq5uTPd6TZGSydczRuAM1RH1QVXclvhZOGwsUAN7pBp6l8KAbf47a0g0sScHYXCVzo9DUocQYZcH9RJ5hKiIwrl6AYRUglBmEULQkvWvhAHzdLHSxExDRGnliRPZhf9tAcp8OF7hir6MBs= ; Message-ID: <20041218162331.2391.qmail@web40901.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40901.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:23:31 PST Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:23:31 -0800 (PST) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.78.198 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Jerry Hejka-Ekins: "Pat Deveney has a fascinating article on A.L. Rawson...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sometime ago, Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: "I think you will be very interested in the October [2004] issue of Theosophical History, which should be going into the mail in the next week or so. Pat Deveney has a fascinating article on A.L. Rawson, whose testimony has been used to prove some things about HPB, while other statements of his have been ignored when they were --let us say--inconvient to the party-line version of history. With giving away the article, just let me say that Mr. Deveney has dug us some real surprises which am sure that certain Theosophical apologists who pose as historians will have to explain away." I have now read the Deveney article and though the article may contain "some real surprises", I am somewhat puzzled why these "surprises" will have to be explained away by "certain Theosophical apologists who pose as historians." It is unclear to me why these apologists would have to explain anything away as given in the Deveney article. I am also puzzled why Jerry apparently felt the need to label certain unnamed individuals as "Theosophical apologists who pose as historians." I think we can safely assume that Jerry does not consider himself as one of these Theosophical apologists. Maybe Jerry could share with us his thoughts as to why he felt these "surprises" would have to be explained away by the Theosophical apologists. Daniel http://hpb.cc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 18 12:18:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26155 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 20:18:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 20:18:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.64) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 20:18:34 -0000 Received: from [209.179.146.219] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cfl23-0003uP-Lt; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:18:33 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE; b=jTd3q/5+PXjkEVjEu4wz22aJtUBerjKhhpBf8SpB9nH2LSqBSo4DfHYFtweLkzcP; To: Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 12:18:23 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c4e53e$bcea6ef0$db92b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79e9bbdb0fb1137808ff87b083360d9750350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.64 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.146.219 Subject: RE: [bn-study] help needed X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 18 2004 Dear Vera: You asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does THEOSOPHY offer anything. THEOSOPHY does not recommend either of these for the reason that the astral body and Karma attached to those are always incompatible and dangerous to some extent.=20 Physical medicine and the science of modern healing look on the human body as a fairly adaptable series if interchangeable parts - which is not so. The Universe organizes through the astral body each person with their own particular set of personalized and individual organs and substances. These are always related to the individual's Karma.=20 To some extent Medical science recognizes incompatibilities such as in bloo= d transfusions and the compatibility (by DNA testing) of proposed organ transplants (heart, lungs, etc. ) and cures for cancer attacked parts of th= e body.=20 One of our problems is psychological: Most fear death. Those who have had NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES ( NDE ) have lost such fear as they realize that they as SPIRITUAL SOULS survive physical death. Med. Sc. Tries to preserve "life"-- at any cost, in the most shattered of physical bodies. THEOSOPHY states all bodies are replaceable under nature's rules and laws. And while everyone grieves for the loss of a loved one, There is the knowledge that under Karma we will all meet again, and love and live and work together, in the future. [ For example, we don't grieve when one goes to sleep before another does? We know that we will wake up and continue life in a fresh day. It is so with the larger separation of "death." ] I attach here an article written generally on this.=20 THE CURE OF DISEASES MORTAL ills and the needs of the stomach rank next after the instinct of self-preservation among all the subjects which engage the attention of the race.=20 If we do not go on living we cannot do the work we think there is to do; if we remain hungry we will lose the power to work properly or to enjoy, and a= t last come to the door of death. From bad or scanty food follows a train of physical ills called generally disease.=20 Disease reaches us also through too much food. So in every direction these ills attack us; even when our feeding is correct and sufficient it is found that we fall a prey because our Karma, settled by ourselves is some previou= s life, ordains that we enter on this one handicapped by the hereditary taint due to the wickedness or the errors of our fathers and mothers.=20 And the records of science show that the taint in the blood or the lymph ma= y jump over many lives, attacking with virulence some generation distant very far from the source.=20 What wonder, then that the cure of disease is an all-absorbing subject with every one! The Christian knows that it is decreed by Almighty God that He will visit the sins of the fathers upon the children even to the third and fourth generation, and the non-believer sees that by some power in nature the penalty is felt even so far. All of this has given to the schools of mental and so-called "metaphysical" healing a strong pull on the fears, the feelings, the wishes, and the bodie= s of those to whom they address themselves, and especially in the United States.=20 That there is more attention given to the subject in America seems true to those who have been on the other side of the Atlantic and noticed how small is the proportion of people there who know anything about the subject. But in the United States in every town many can be found who know about these schools and practice after their methods. Why it has more hold here can be left to conjecture, as the point under consideration is why it has any hold at all. It is something like patent medicine.=20 Offer a cure to people for their many ills, and they will take it up; offer it cheap, and they will use it; offer it as an easy method, and they will rush for it under certain conditions.=20 Metaphysical healing is easy for some because it declares, first, that no money need be paid to doctors for medicine; second, that medical fluids and drugs may be dispensed with; and third that it is easily learned and practiced. The difficulties that arise out of the necessities of logic are not present for those who never studied it, but are somewhat potent with those who reason correctly; - but that is not usual for the general run of minds.=20 They see certain effects and accept the assumed cause as the right one. But many persons will not even investigate the system, because they think it requires them to postulate the non-existence of that which they see before their eyes.=20 The statements quoted from the monthly Christian Science in March PATH are bars in the way of such minds. If they could be induced to just try the method offered for cure, belief might result, for effects indeed often follow.=20 But the popular mind is not in favor of "mind cure," and more prominence is given in the daily papers to cases of death under it than to cures. And ver= y full reports always appear of a case such as one in March, where "faith curers," in order to restore life, went to praying over the dead body of on= e of the members of a believing family. During a recent tour over this country from the Atlantic to the Pacific and back, I had the opportunity of meeting hundreds of disciples of these schools, and found in nearly all cases that they were not addicted to logic but calmly ignored very plain propositions, satisfied that if cures were accomplished the cause claimed must be the right one, and almost without exception they denied the existence of evil or pain or suffering.=20 There was a concurrence of testimony from all to show that the dominant ide= a in their minds was the cure of their bodily ills and the continuance of health. The accent was not on the beauty of holiness or the value to them and the community of a right moral system and right life, but on the cure o= f their diseases.=20 So the conclusion has been forced home that all these schools exist because people desire to be well more than they desire to be good, although they do not object to goodness if that shall bring wholeness. And, indeed, one does not have to be good to gain the benefit of the teachings. It is enough to have confidence, to assert boldly that this does not exist and that that has no power to hurt one.=20 I do not say the teachers of the "science" agree with me herein, but only that whether you are good or bad the results will follow the firm practice of the method enjoined, irrespective of the ideas of the teachers. For in pure mind-cure as compared with its congener "Christian Science," yo= u do not have to believe in Jesus and the gospels, yet the same results are claimed, for Jesus taught that whatever you prayed for with faith, that you should have. Scientific research discloses that the bodies of our race are infected with taints that cause nearly all of our diseases, and school after school of medicine has tried and still tries to find the remedy that will dislodge th= e foulness in the blood.=20 This is scientific, since it seeks the real physical cause; metaphysical healing says it cures, but cannot prove that the cause is destroyed and not merely palliated.=20 That there is some room for doubt history shows us, for none will deny that many pure thinking and acting pair have brought forth children who displaye= d some taint derived from a distant ancestor. Evidently their pure individual thoughts had no power over the great universal development of the matter used by those human bodies. Turning now to medicine we find the Italian Count Mattei promulgating a system of cure by the homeopathic use of subtle vegetable essences which ma= y well give pause to those who would make universal the curing by faith or mind alone. Some of his liquids will instantly stop a violent pain, restore sight, give back hearing, and dissipate abnormal growths. His globules will make a drunken man sober, and, given to the nurse who suckles a babe, will cure the child who takes the milk. The drunkard and the child do not think about or have faith in the remedies, yet they cure. Is it not better to restore health by physical means and leave the high teachings of the healers, all taken from well know sources, for the benefit of our moral nature?=20 And if Christian healers read these lines, should they not remember that when the prophet restored the widow's son he used physical means - his own magnetism applied simultaneously to every member of the child's body, and Jesus, when the woman who touched his garment was cured, lost a portion of his vitality - not his thoughts - for he said "virtue" had gone out from him?=20 The Apostle also gave directions that if any were sick the others should assemble about the bed and anoint with oil, laying on their hands meanwhile= : simply physical therapeutics following a long line of ancient precedent dating back to Noah.=20 Moses taught how to cure diseases and to disinfect places where contagion lurked. It was not by using the high power of thought, but by processes deemed by him to be effectual, such as sprinkling blood of animals slaughtered in peculiar circumstances.=20 Without declaring for or against his methods, it is very certain that he supposed by these means subtle forces of a physical nature would be liberated and brought to bear on the case in hand. The mass of testimony through the ages is against healing physical ills by the use of the higher forces in nature, and the reason, once well known but later on forgotten, is the one given in the article of January, 1892, - tha= t diseases are gross manifestations showing themselves on their way out of th= e nature so that one may be purified.=20 To arrest them though thought ignorantly directed is to throw them back int= o their cause and replant them in their mental plane. This is the true ground of our objection to metaphysical healing practices, which we distinguish from the assumptions and so-called philosophy on which those methods are claimed to stand. For we distinctly urge that the effects are not brought by any philosophical system whatever, but by the practical though ignorant use of psycho-physiological processes. William Q. Judge Path, September, 1892 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I hope this may be of some help, Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Vera Santos=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 3:30 PM To:=20 Subject: [bn-study] help needed Your friend asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does THEOSOPHY offer anything. From jjhe@charter.net Sat Dec 18 12:53:27 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjhe@charter.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 95167 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 20:53:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 20:53:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxsf39.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.28.166) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 20:53:27 -0000 Received: from mxip10.cluster1.charter.net (mxip10a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.140]) by mxsf39.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBIKrPYX014643 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:53:26 -0500 Received: from 68-116-80-89.ca.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (68.116.80.89) by mxip10.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 18 Dec 2004 15:53:25 -0500 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.88,74,1102309200"; d="scan'208"; a="493511276:sNHT31651124" Message-ID: <41C498C4.6080805@charter.net> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 12:53:24 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-GB; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041218162331.2391.qmail@web40901.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.225.28.166 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: Theos-World Jerry Hejka-Ekins: "Pat Deveney has a fascinating article on A.L. Rawson...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106201926 Dan, First of all, I did not have you in mind when I used the phrase "Theosophical apologists." Second, the comment was in the context of a discussion I was having with Dallas concerning modernist verses post modernist approaches to communicating theosophy, and therefore the comment was rhetorical. Regarding the article in TH, I was indeed surprised by some of the data Deveney found in his research, and I believe that anyone interested in Theosophical history will also be surprised. Were you not surprised? If you were already aware of everything that Deveney had discovered concerning Rawson, then you are way ahead of me, and ahead of Deveney too. In any case, I would be interested in reading your comments concerning the article. --j Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: >Sometime ago, Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > >"I think you will be very interested in the >October [2004] issue of Theosophical History, which >should be going into the mail in the next >week or so. Pat Deveney has a fascinating >article on A.L. Rawson, whose testimony has >been used to prove some things about HPB, >while other statements of his have been >ignored when they were --let us >say--inconvient to the party-line >version of history. With giving away >the article, just let me say that Mr. >Deveney has dug us some real surprises >which am sure that certain Theosophical >apologists who pose as >historians will have to explain away." > >I have now read the Deveney article and though > >the article may contain "some real surprises", I > >am somewhat puzzled why these "surprises" will > >have to be explained away by "certain Theosophical > >apologists who pose as historians." > >It is unclear to me why these apologists would > >have to explain anything away as given in > >the Deveney article. > >I am also puzzled why Jerry apparently > >felt the need to label certain unnamed > >individuals as "Theosophical > >apologists who pose as historians." > >I think we can safely assume that > >Jerry does not consider himself > >as one of these Theosophical > >apologists. > >Maybe Jerry could share with > >us his thoughts as to why he > >felt these "surprises" would > >have to be explained away > >by the Theosophical apologists. > >Daniel >http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat Dec 18 18:39:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6707 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2004 02:39:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2004 02:39:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.16) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2004 02:39:17 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n11.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Dec 2004 02:39:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.178] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Dec 2004 02:39:15 -0000 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 02:38:41 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41C498C4.6080805@charter.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2803 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.16 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Re: Jerry Hejka-Ekins: "Pat Deveney has a fascinating article on A.L. Rawson...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Jerry, Thanks for your reply below but I am still puzzled by your initial statement. Therefore I ask you again: Could you share with us your thoughts as to why you felt these "surprises" would have to be explained away by the Theosophical apologists? Daniel http://hpb.cc --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > Dan, > > First of all, I did not have you in mind when I used the phrase > "Theosophical apologists." > > Second, the comment was in the context of a discussion I was having with > Dallas concerning modernist verses post modernist approaches to > communicating theosophy, and therefore the comment was rhetorical. > > Regarding the article in TH, I was indeed surprised by some of the data > Deveney found in his research, and I believe that anyone interested in > Theosophical history will also be surprised. Were you not surprised? > If you were already aware of everything that Deveney had discovered > concerning Rawson, then you are way ahead of me, and ahead of Deveney > too. In any case, I would be interested in reading your comments > concerning the article. > --j > > > > Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: > > >Sometime ago, Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > > > >"I think you will be very interested in the > >October [2004] issue of Theosophical History, which > >should be going into the mail in the next > >week or so. Pat Deveney has a fascinating > >article on A.L. Rawson, whose testimony has > >been used to prove some things about HPB, > >while other statements of his have been > >ignored when they were --let us > >say--inconvient to the party-line > >version of history. With giving away > >the article, just let me say that Mr. > >Deveney has dug us some real surprises > >which am sure that certain Theosophical > >apologists who pose as > >historians will have to explain away." > > > >I have now read the Deveney article and though > > > >the article may contain "some real surprises", I > > > >am somewhat puzzled why these "surprises" will > > > >have to be explained away by "certain Theosophical > > > >apologists who pose as historians." > > > >It is unclear to me why these apologists would > > > >have to explain anything away as given in > > > >the Deveney article. > > > >I am also puzzled why Jerry apparently > > > >felt the need to label certain unnamed > > > >individuals as "Theosophical > > > >apologists who pose as historians." > > > >I think we can safely assume that > > > >Jerry does not consider himself > > > >as one of these Theosophical > > > >apologists. > > > >Maybe Jerry could share with > > > >us his thoughts as to why he > > > >felt these "surprises" would > > > >have to be explained away > > > >by the Theosophical apologists. > > > >Daniel > >http://hpb.cc > From perrycoles@yahoo.com Sat Dec 18 19:49:56 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: perrycoles@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51956 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2004 03:49:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2004 03:49:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.46) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2004 03:49:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n17.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Dec 2004 03:49:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.248] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Dec 2004 03:49:54 -0000 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 03:49:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000001c4e53e$bcea6ef0$db92b3d1@DALLAS> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 11856 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.46 From: "Perry Coles" X-Originating-IP: 203.59.117.39 Subject: Re: [bn-study] help needed X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=93736069 X-Yahoo-Profile: perrycoles Hello Dallas, I was a little concerned over your comments on blood transfusions and organ donations. As an ex JW I know the needless and pointless suffering and waste of life that can result from these type of dogmatic beliefs. The ethical dimension to this is to me not just a matter of our attachment to the body and/or the occult effects of having someone else's blood in our veins but if we are able to extend our life though either a blood transfusion or organ donation are we not duty bound to use whatever means we can to either save someone else's (especially!!!) life or our own as long as it is not at the cost of another's? The occult consequences of these procedures while perhaps coming at a price may be far outweighed by the good we can do while in incarnation. Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: > Dec 18 2004 > > Dear Vera: > > You asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does THEOSOPHY > offer anything. > > > THEOSOPHY does not recommend either of these for the reason that the astral > body and Karma attached to those are always incompatible and dangerous to > some extent. > > Physical medicine and the science of modern healing look on the human body > as a fairly adaptable series if interchangeable parts - which is not so. > > The Universe organizes through the astral body each person with their own > particular set of personalized and individual organs and substances. These > are always related to the individual's Karma. > > To some extent Medical science recognizes incompatibilities such as in blood > transfusions and the compatibility (by DNA testing) of proposed organ > transplants (heart, lungs, etc. ) and cures for cancer attacked parts of the > body. > > One of our problems is psychological: Most fear death. Those who have had > NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES ( NDE ) have lost such fear as they realize that > they as SPIRITUAL SOULS survive physical death. Med. Sc. Tries to preserve > "life"-- at any cost, in the most shattered of physical bodies. > > THEOSOPHY states all bodies are replaceable under nature's rules and laws. > And while everyone grieves for the loss of a loved one, There is the > knowledge that under Karma we will all meet again, and love and live and > work together, in the future. [ For example, we don't grieve when one goes > to sleep before another does? We know that we will wake up and continue > life in a fresh day. It is so with the larger separation of "death." ] > > I attach here an article written generally on this. > > > THE CURE OF DISEASES > > > MORTAL ills and the needs of the stomach rank next after the instinct of > self-preservation among all the subjects which engage the attention of the > race. > If we do not go on living we cannot do the work we think there is to do; if > we remain hungry we will lose the power to work properly or to enjoy, and at > last come to the door of death. From bad or scanty food follows a train of > physical ills called generally disease. > > Disease reaches us also through too much food. So in every direction these > ills attack us; even when our feeding is correct and sufficient it is found > that we fall a prey because our Karma, settled by ourselves is some previous > life, ordains that we enter on this one handicapped by the hereditary taint > due to the wickedness or the errors of our fathers and mothers. > > And the records of science show that the taint in the blood or the lymph may > jump over many lives, attacking with virulence some generation distant very > far from the source. > > What wonder, then that the cure of disease is an all-absorbing subject with > every one! The Christian knows that it is decreed by Almighty God that He > will visit the sins of the fathers upon the children even to the third and > fourth generation, and the non-believer sees that by some power in nature > the penalty is felt even so far. > > All of this has given to the schools of mental and so-called "metaphysical" > healing a strong pull on the fears, the feelings, the wishes, and the bodies > of those to whom they address themselves, and especially in the United > States. > That there is more attention given to the subject in America seems true to > those who have been on the other side of the Atlantic and noticed how small > is the proportion of people there who know anything about the subject. But > in the United States in every town many can be found who know about these > schools and practice after their methods. Why it has more hold here can be > left to conjecture, as the point under consideration is why it has any hold > at all. It is something like patent medicine. > > Offer a cure to people for their many ills, and they will take it up; offer > it cheap, and they will use it; offer it as an easy method, and they will > rush for it under certain conditions. > > Metaphysical healing is easy for some because it declares, first, that no > money need be paid to doctors for medicine; second, that medical fluids and > drugs may be dispensed with; and third that it is easily learned and > practiced. The difficulties that arise out of the necessities of logic are > not present for those who never studied it, but are somewhat potent with > those who reason correctly; - but that is not usual for the general run of > minds. > > They see certain effects and accept the assumed cause as the right one. But > many persons will not even investigate the system, because they think it > requires them to postulate the non-existence of that which they see before > their eyes. > > The statements quoted from the monthly Christian Science in March PATH are > bars in the way of such minds. If they could be induced to just try the > method offered for cure, belief might result, for effects indeed often > follow. > > But the popular mind is not in favor of "mind cure," and more prominence is > given in the daily papers to cases of death under it than to cures. And very > full reports always appear of a case such as one in March, where "faith > curers," in order to restore life, went to praying over the dead body of one > of the members of a believing family. > > During a recent tour over this country from the Atlantic to the Pacific and > back, I had the opportunity of meeting hundreds of disciples of these > schools, and found in nearly all cases that they were not addicted to logic > but calmly ignored very plain propositions, satisfied that if cures were > accomplished the cause claimed must be the right one, and almost without > exception they denied the existence of evil or pain or suffering. > > There was a concurrence of testimony from all to show that the dominant idea > in their minds was the cure of their bodily ills and the continuance of > health. The accent was not on the beauty of holiness or the value to them > and the community of a right moral system and right life, but on the cure of > their diseases. > > So the conclusion has been forced home that all these schools exist because > people desire to be well more than they desire to be good, although they do > not object to goodness if that shall bring wholeness. > > And, indeed, one does not have to be good to gain the benefit of the > teachings. It is enough to have confidence, to assert boldly that this does > not exist and that that has no power to hurt one. > I do not say the teachers of the "science" agree with me herein, but only > that whether you are good or bad the results will follow the firm practice > of the method enjoined, irrespective of the ideas of the teachers. > > For in pure mind-cure as compared with its congener "Christian Science," you > do not have to believe in Jesus and the gospels, yet the same results are > claimed, for Jesus taught that whatever you prayed for with faith, that you > should have. > > Scientific research discloses that the bodies of our race are infected with > taints that cause nearly all of our diseases, and school after school of > medicine has tried and still tries to find the remedy that will dislodge the > foulness in the blood. > > This is scientific, since it seeks the real physical cause; metaphysical > healing says it cures, but cannot prove that the cause is destroyed and not > merely palliated. > > That there is some room for doubt history shows us, for none will deny that > many pure thinking and acting pair have brought forth children who displayed > some taint derived from a distant ancestor. Evidently their pure individual > thoughts had no power over the great universal development of the matter > used by those human bodies. > > Turning now to medicine we find the Italian Count Mattei promulgating a > system of cure by the homeopathic use of subtle vegetable essences which may > well give pause to those who would make universal the curing by faith or > mind alone. Some of his liquids will instantly stop a violent pain, restore > sight, give back hearing, and dissipate abnormal growths. His globules will > make a drunken man sober, and, given to the nurse who suckles a babe, will > cure the child who takes the milk. The drunkard and the child do not think > about or have faith in the remedies, yet they cure. Is it not better to > restore health by physical means and leave the high teachings of the > healers, all taken from well know sources, for the benefit of our moral > nature? > > And if Christian healers read these lines, should they not remember that > when the prophet restored the widow's son he used physical means - his own > magnetism applied simultaneously to every member of the child's body, and > Jesus, when the woman who touched his garment was cured, lost a portion of > his vitality - not his thoughts - for he said "virtue" had gone out from > him? > The Apostle also gave directions that if any were sick the others should > assemble about the bed and anoint with oil, laying on their hands meanwhile: > simply physical therapeutics following a long line of ancient precedent > dating back to Noah. > > Moses taught how to cure diseases and to disinfect places where contagion > lurked. It was not by using the high power of thought, but by processes > deemed by him to be effectual, such as sprinkling blood of animals > slaughtered in peculiar circumstances. > > Without declaring for or against his methods, it is very certain that he > supposed by these means subtle forces of a physical nature would be > liberated and brought to bear on the case in hand. > > The mass of testimony through the ages is against healing physical ills by > the use of the higher forces in nature, and the reason, once well known but > later on forgotten, is the one given in the article of January, 1892, - that > diseases are gross manifestations showing themselves on their way out of the > nature so that one may be purified. > > To arrest them though thought ignorantly directed is to throw them back into > their cause and replant them in their mental plane. > > This is the true ground of our objection to metaphysical healing practices, > which we distinguish from the assumptions and so-called philosophy on which > those methods are claimed to stand. For we distinctly urge that the effects > are not brought by any philosophical system whatever, but by the practical > though ignorant use of psycho-physiological processes. > > William Q. Judge Path, September, 1892 > > > ======================================== > > I hope this may be of some help, > > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > > =================== > > -----Original Message----- > From: Vera Santos > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 3:30 PM > To: > Subject: [bn-study] help needed > > Your friend asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does > THEOSOPHY offer anything. From jjhe@charter.net Sat Dec 18 19:53:37 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjhe@charter.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74445 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2004 03:53:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2004 03:53:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxsf05.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.28.205) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2004 03:53:37 -0000 Received: from mxip11.cluster1.charter.net (mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.141]) by mxsf05.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBJ3rXi2012749 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 22:53:36 -0500 Received: from 68-116-80-89.ca.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (68.116.80.89) by mxip11.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 18 Dec 2004 22:53:32 -0500 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.88,74,1102309200"; d="scan'217,208"; a="674900522:sNHT21258134" Message-ID: <41C4FB3C.4030207@charter.net> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 19:53:32 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-GB; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.225.28.205 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Jerry Hejka-Ekins: "Pat Deveney has a fascinating article on A.L. Rawson...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106201926 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan, As I said before, it was a rhetorical statement written in context to the subject of communicating Theosophy to a post modern generation. In that context, it is self explanatory and very tongue in cheek, as it reflects upon modernist verses post modernist attitudes. In context, the statement does not mean, nor was it intended to mean that Theosophical apologists have for some reason an obligation or compulsion to put forth an explanation--which, of course, is pure nonsense. There is an old saying--"Context is everything" but getting a feel for the tone helps too. Now, to my question, which I ask you again: What are you thoughts on Deveney's article? --j BTW, why are you writing identical messages to me on two different discussion boards? This is silly. j Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: >Jerry, > >Thanks for your reply below but I am still >puzzled by your initial statement. > >Therefore I ask you again: > >Could you share with us your >thoughts as to why you >felt these "surprises" would >have to be explained away >by the Theosophical apologists? > >Daniel >http://hpb.cc > > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins >wrote: > > >>Dan, >> >>First of all, I did not have you in mind when I used the phrase >>"Theosophical apologists." >> >>Second, the comment was in the context of a discussion I was having >> >> >with > > >>Dallas concerning modernist verses post modernist approaches to >>communicating theosophy, and therefore the comment was rhetorical. >> >>Regarding the article in TH, I was indeed surprised by some of the >> >> >data > > >>Deveney found in his research, and I believe that anyone interested >> >> >in > > >>Theosophical history will also be surprised. Were you not >> >> >surprised? > > >> If you were already aware of everything that Deveney had >> >> >discovered > > >>concerning Rawson, then you are way ahead of me, and ahead of >> >> >Deveney > > >>too. In any case, I would be interested in reading your comments >>concerning the article. >>--j >> >> >> >>Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: >> >> >> >>>Sometime ago, Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: >>> >>>"I think you will be very interested in the >>>October [2004] issue of Theosophical History, which >>>should be going into the mail in the next >>>week or so. Pat Deveney has a fascinating >>>article on A.L. Rawson, whose testimony has >>>been used to prove some things about HPB, >>>while other statements of his have been >>>ignored when they were --let us >>>say--inconvient to the party-line >>>version of history. With giving away >>>the article, just let me say that Mr. >>>Deveney has dug us some real surprises >>>which am sure that certain Theosophical >>>apologists who pose as >>>historians will have to explain away." >>> >>>I have now read the Deveney article and though >>> >>>the article may contain "some real surprises", I >>> >>>am somewhat puzzled why these "surprises" will >>> >>>have to be explained away by "certain Theosophical >>> >>>apologists who pose as historians." >>> >>>It is unclear to me why these apologists would >>> >>>have to explain anything away as given in >>> >>>the Deveney article. >>> >>>I am also puzzled why Jerry apparently >>> >>>felt the need to label certain unnamed >>> >>>individuals as "Theosophical >>> >>>apologists who pose as historians." >>> >>>I think we can safely assume that >>> >>>Jerry does not consider himself >>> >>>as one of these Theosophical >>> >>>apologists. >>> >>>Maybe Jerry could share with >>> >>>us his thoughts as to why he >>> >>>felt these "surprises" would >>> >>>have to be explained away >>> >>>by the Theosophical apologists. >>> >>>Daniel >>>http://hpb.cc >>> >>> > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Dec 18 21:06:47 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54262 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2004 05:06:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2004 05:06:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d20.mx.aol.com) (205.188.139.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2004 05:06:46 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.7f.53b3715d (14374); Sun, 19 Dec 2004 00:04:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7f.53b3715d.2ef665ea@aol.com> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 00:04:42 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.139.136 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: The Physics of Santa and His Reindeer X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 The Physics of Santa and His Reindeer No known species of reindeer can fly. BUT there are 300,000 species of living organisms yet to be classified, and while most of these are insects and germs, this does not COMPLETELY rule out flying reindeer which only Santa has ever seen. There are two billion children (persons under 18) in the world. BUT since Santa doesn't appear to handle the Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Buddhist children, that reduces the workload to 15% of the total =E2=80=94 378 milli= on according to Population Reference Bureau. At an average (Rudolph census)=20 rate of 3.5 children per household, that's 91.8 million homes. One presume= s there's at least one good child in each. Santa has 31 hours of Christmas to work with, thanks to the different time zones and the rotation of the earth, assuming he travels east to west (whic= h seems logical). This works out to 822.6 visits per second. This is to say that for each Christian household with good children, Santa has 1/1000th of a second to park, hop out of the sleigh, jump down the chimney, fill the stockings, distribute the remaining presents under the tree, eat whatever snacks have been left, get back up the chimney, get back into the sleigh and move on to the next house. Assuming that each of these 91.8 million stops are evenly distributed around the earth (which, of course, we know to be false but for the purposes of our calculations we wil= l accept), we are now talking about .78 miles per household, a total trip of 75 million miles, not counting stops to do what most of us must do at leas= t once every 31 hours, plus feeding and etc. This means that Santa's sleigh is moving at 650 miles per second, 3,000 times the speed of sound. For purposes of comparison, the fastest man-made vehicle on earth, the Ulysses space probe, moves at a poky 27.4 miles per second - a conventional reindeer can run, tops, 15 miles per hour. If every one of the 91.8 million homes with good children were to put out a single chocolate chip cookie and an 8 ounce glass of 2% milk, the total calories (needless to say other vitamins and minerals) would be approximately 225 calories (100 for the cookie, give or take, and 125 for the milk, give or take). Multiplying the number of calories per house by the number of homes (225 x 91.8 x 1000000), we get the total number of calories Santa consumes that night, which is 20,655,000,000 calories. To break it down further, 1 pound is equal to 3500 calories. Dividing our total number of calories by the number of calories in a pound (20655000000/3500) and we get the number of pounds Santa gains, 5901428.6, which is 2950.7 tons. The payload on the sleigh adds another interesting element. Assuming that each child gets nothing more than a medium-sized lego set (two pounds), the sleigh is carrying 321,300 tons, not counting Santa, who is invariably described as overweight. On land, conventional reindeer can pull no more than 300 pounds. Even granting that "flying reindeer" (see above) could pull TEN TIMES the normal amount, we cannot do the job with eight, or even nine. We need 214,200 reindeer. This increases the payload (not even counting the weight of the sleigh) - to 353,430 tons. Again, for comparison - this is four times the weight of the Queen Elizabeth. 353,000 tons traveling at 650 miles per second creates enormous air resistance - this will heat the reindeer up in the same fashion as spacecraft re-enterin= g the earth's atmosphere. The lead pair of reindeer will absorb 14.3 QUINTILLION joules of energy. Per second. Each. In short, they will burst into flame almost instantaneously, exposing the reindeer behind them, and create deafening sonic booms in their wake. The entire reindeer team will be vaporized within 4.26 thousandths of a second. Santa, meanwhile, will be subjected to centrifugal forces 17,500.06 times greater than gravity. A 250-pound Santa (which seems ludicrously slim) would be pinned to the back of his sleigh by 4,315,015 pounds of force. In conclusion: If Santa ever DID deliver presents on Christmas Eve, he's dead now. From samblo@cs.com Sun Dec 19 02:08:42 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91467 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2004 10:08:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2004 10:08:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m22.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.3) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2004 10:08:41 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1ef.31726d67 (4446) for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 05:08:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1ef.31726d67.2ef6ad27@cs.com> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 05:08:39 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.3 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Dallas, It was a fraud ID (mine) and the content was removed automatically by the Forum Software Protection. It was probably a Virus or worm that was being circulated. Be glad we did not receive the content, I am. Hope you are doing well in your recovery, best wishes. John From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Dec 19 05:41:18 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 45468 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2004 13:41:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2004 13:41:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2004 13:41:15 -0000 Received: from [209.179.140.20] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cg1J7-0000va-Hd; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 08:41:11 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To; b=PJzZuIGpkhXU4qGoDje//55NULag4W4XoU4pQujPjJzxCKqZB2iZeHz50jg76/zb; To: Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 05:41:01 -0800 Message-ID: <000201c4e5d0$66a98340$148cb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <41C498C4.6080805@charter.net> X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79195d51b3dcdb2eabc4f06898b4f83936350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.67 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.140.20 Subject: RE: Theos-World Jerry Hejka-Ekins: "Pat Deveney has a fascinating article on A.L. Rawson...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 19 2004 Dear Jerry and Dan: May I do a little breaking in? I did not mean to terminate our exchanges=20=20 I had to go to the hospital for a while. Now trying to catch up.=20 Excuse me for brevity.=20=20 Buy the way, I think HPB has expressed a great deal on Education in The KEY TO THEOSOPHY -- I would find it difficult to say more.=20=20 If "thinking" could only be taught -- if freedom and independence from "authority" were insisted on, then their might be real progress. THEOSOPHY is a moral affair and not just head learning or the application o= f the laws of Nature for selfish advantage (black magic). Nor is it merely a bunch of quotes.=20 I would hardly classify myself as an "apologist" for THEOSOPHY. A protagonist, or an advertiser -- yes.=20=20=20 But I also say at almost every turn: do your own work. Study, find out. Don't trust "authorities." Let no one say they "think for you." THEOSOPHY defends itself quite well without any effort on my part -- if onl= y people would study it. If they don't then who suffers? Main trouble is that most go by opinions, and few actually try to prove to themselves the verity (or reverse) of opinions adopted. They spend a lot o= f time defending themselves, and especially their prejudices. If we could all see this clearly, for ourselves, then 9/10ths of the confusion would vanish= . I have studied THEOSOPHY most of my life. To me it is a statement of fact= s in Nature. Others may have their own views.=20=20 I have an intense dislike for "buzz" words like "post modern, modernist" etc... which signify nothing at all. That is all to me, pseudo-intellectual= . I try to deal with facts and truths, and care little for opinions and "buzz words."=20 In a few years those will be replaced, by other and newer "buzzes." -- and what will not? THEOSOPHY will remain -- if it is indeed a statement of facts in nature. It may be called something else, but the facts, however named, will still be FACTS.=20=20 They (buzz words) embrace like a mist -- insubstantially, and designed to blur -- expressions that require deep thought and hard work to grasp. They confuse rather then make clear. They appear to give elevation to a conversation in which most try to make points by seeming to know much (of what ?) -- just repartie. Simply put: there is actually no "religion" higher than truth and fact. THEOSOPHY is a statement of the cause and reality, including the laws and existence of all beings. A single word defines it completely: BROTHERHOOD. Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: Jerry=20 Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 12:53 PM To:=20 Subject: Re: Jerry Hejka-Ekins: "Pat Deveney has a fascinating article on A.L. Rawson...." Dan, First of all, I did not have you in mind when I used the phrase=20 "Theosophical apologists."=20=20 Second, the comment was in the context of a discussion I was having with=20 Dallas concerning modernist verses post modernist approaches to=20 communicating theosophy, and therefore the comment was rhetorical.=20=20 Regarding the article in TH, I was indeed surprised by some of the data=20 Deveney found in his research, and I believe that anyone interested in=20 Theosophical history will also be surprised. Were you not surprised?=20 If you were already aware of everything that Deveney had discovered=20 concerning Rawson, then you are way ahead of me, and ahead of Deveney=20 too. In any case, I would be interested in reading your comments=20 concerning the article.=20=20=20 --j =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: >Sometime ago, Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: >=20 >"I think you will be very interested in the=20 >October [2004] issue of Theosophical History, which=20 >should be going into the mail in the next >week or so. Pat Deveney has a fascinating=20 >article on A.L. Rawson, whose testimony has=20 >been used to prove some things about HPB,=20 >while other statements of his have been=20 >ignored when they were --let us >say--inconvient to the party-line=20 >version of history. With giving away >the article, just let me say that Mr.=20 >Deveney has dug us some real surprises=20 >which am sure that certain Theosophical=20 >apologists who pose as >historians will have to explain away." > >I have now read the Deveney article and though > >the article may contain "some real surprises", I=20 > >am somewhat puzzled why these "surprises" will > >have to be explained away by "certain Theosophical > >apologists who pose as historians." > >It is unclear to me why these apologists would > >have to explain anything away as given in > >the Deveney article. > >I am also puzzled why Jerry apparently > >felt the need to label certain unnamed > >individuals as "Theosophical > >apologists who pose as historians." > >I think we can safely assume that > >Jerry does not consider himself > >as one of these Theosophical > >apologists. > >Maybe Jerry could share with > >us his thoughts as to why he > >felt these "surprises" would > >have to be explained away > >by the Theosophical apologists. > >Daniel >http://hpb.cc From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Sun Dec 19 05:50:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94827 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2004 13:50:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2004 13:50:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2004 13:50:51 -0000 Received: from versus (200-215-064-111.fnsce7001.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.215.64.111]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AF4F7343F; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 11:49:49 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <004501c4e5d1$4e9db360$0301010a@versus> To: , References: <7f.53b3715d.2ef665ea@aol.com> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 11:47:39 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World The Physics of Santa and His Reindeer-Krishtar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Leonardo This e-mail made feel down, now I don=C2=B4t believe in Santa any more. Last week I received a message saying that Santa Claus was a gay, now anoth= er message claims that he is probably dead!! So how can I live without my Valium?( smile) Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: leonmaurer@aol.com=20 To: undisclosed-recipients:=20 Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 3:04 AM Subject: Theos-World The Physics of Santa and His Reindeer The Physics of Santa and His Reindeer No known species of reindeer can fly. BUT there are 300,000 species of living organisms yet to be classified, and while most of these are insect= s and germs, this does not COMPLETELY rule out flying reindeer which only Santa has ever seen. There are two billion children (persons under 18) in the world. BUT since Santa doesn't appear to handle the Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Buddhist children, that reduces the workload to 15% of the total =E2=80=94 378 mil= lion according to Population Reference Bureau. At an average (Rudolph census)= =20 rate of 3.5 children per household, that's 91.8 million homes. One presu= mes there's at least one good child in each. Santa has 31 hours of Christmas to work with, thanks to the different tim= e zones and the rotation of the earth, assuming he travels east to west (wh= ich seems logical). This works out to 822.6 visits per second. This is to say that for each Christian household with good children, Sant= a has 1/1000th of a second to park, hop out of the sleigh, jump down the chimney, fill the stockings, distribute the remaining presents under the tree, eat whatever snacks have been left, get back up the chimney, get ba= ck into the sleigh and move on to the next house. Assuming that each of the= se 91.8 million stops are evenly distributed around the earth (which, of course, we know to be false but for the purposes of our calculations we w= ill accept), we are now talking about .78 miles per household, a total trip o= f 75 million miles, not counting stops to do what most of us must do at le= ast once every 31 hours, plus feeding and etc. This means that Santa's sleigh is moving at 650 miles per second, 3,000 times the speed of sound. For purposes of comparison, the fastest man-ma= de vehicle on earth, the Ulysses space probe, moves at a poky 27.4 miles per second - a conventional reindeer can run, tops, 15 miles per hour. If every one of the 91.8 million homes with good children were to put out= a single chocolate chip cookie and an 8 ounce glass of 2% milk, the total calories (needless to say other vitamins and minerals) would be approximately 225 calories (100 for the cookie, give or take, and 125 for the milk, give or take). Multiplying the number of calories per house by the number of homes (225 x 91.8 x 1000000), we get the total number of calories Santa consumes that night, which is 20,655,000,000 calories. To break it down further, 1 pound is equal to 3500 calories. Dividing our total number of calories by the number of calories in a pound (20655000000/3500) and we get the number of pounds Santa gains, 5901428.6= , which is 2950.7 tons. The payload on the sleigh adds another interesting element. Assuming tha= t each child gets nothing more than a medium-sized lego set (two pounds), t= he sleigh is carrying 321,300 tons, not counting Santa, who is invariably described as overweight. On land, conventional reindeer can pull no more than 300 pounds. Even granting that "flying reindeer" (see above) could pull TEN TIMES the normal amount, we cannot do the job with eight, or eve= n nine. We need 214,200 reindeer. This increases the payload (not even counting the weight of the sleigh) - to 353,430 tons. Again, for comparison - this is four times the weight of the Queen Elizabeth. 353,0= 00 tons traveling at 650 miles per second creates enormous air resistance - this will heat the reindeer up in the same fashion as spacecraft re-enter= ing the earth's atmosphere. The lead pair of reindeer will absorb 14.3 QUINTILLION joules of energy. Per second. Each. In short, they will burst into flame almost instantaneously, exposing the reindeer behind them, and create deafening sonic booms in their wake. Th= e entire reindeer team will be vaporized within 4.26 thousandths of a secon= d. Santa, meanwhile, will be subjected to centrifugal forces 17,500.06 times greater than gravity. A 250-pound Santa (which seems ludicrously slim) would be pinned to the back of his sleigh by 4,315,015 pounds of force. In conclusion: If Santa ever DID deliver presents on Christmas Eve, he's dead now. =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Sun Dec 19 06:08:15 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24915 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2004 14:08:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2004 14:08:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2004 14:08:14 -0000 Received: from versus (200-215-064-111.fnsce7001.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.215.64.111]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 882EC33E95 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 12:08:12 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <005401c4e5d3$dfe678a0$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041218154351.11538.qmail@web40905.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 12:06:02 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Since H.P. Blavatsky's death in 1891, numerous individuals have claimed contact with her Masters. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Daniel A simple study and fast research about the info Theosophical literature can= give us the characteristics and properties of the Astral reigns, with all = its inhabitants. They=B4re eager to catch the attention from us, in this material plane ,who= are also anxious to make contact with the so-called "unknown beyond", Thus= , they may give us many illusions, adopting the appearance suitable for the= ir needs. It may be a Master, a deceased HPB or whomever they find useful and importa= nt in our field of conscience. When we develop our siddhis we get exposed to many ' temptations' from the = "other side". We must take the example of the true yogis such as Vivekananda, Ramakrishna= and also the many texts on the Dhamapada and B. Gita, our siddhis must be = of secondary importance because they=B4ll still represent the illusion worl= d, not the reality.=20 The physical ego is always eager to feel "one of the chosen', that is why s= o many psychics get lost in the path. We ought to purify the astral sences to be not trapped in such illusions. My POV, of course. Krishtar=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Daniel H. Caldwell=20 To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com=20 Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 1:43 PM Subject: Theos-World Since H.P. Blavatsky's death in 1891, numerous indiv= iduals have claimed contact with her Masters. Since Madame Blavatsky's death in 1891, numerous individuals=20 have claimed contact with her Masters. =20=20=20 For a partial list of claimants, see: =20=20=20 http://blavatskyarchives.com/moderntheosophy.htm#Endnote =20=20=20 For more background on this subject, see: =20=20=20 http://blavatskyarchives.com/latermessengers.htm =20=20=20 Daniel http://hpb.cc =20=20=20 =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Dec 19 06:16:45 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 60525 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2004 14:16:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2004 14:16:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2004 14:16:44 -0000 Received: from [209.179.140.20] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cg1rH-0006AC-Ts; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 09:16:33 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To; b=K0PQAKZ5/Vr4lYW79QwkwHSfY7JhqRk6orxOQKtBoUfvr58VBEj4rv8a2HSqEEY1; To: Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 06:16:13 -0800 Message-ID: <002f01c4e5d5$551dd630$148cb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec792ec968e5a2e108600f3b8edf535935a1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.67 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.140.20 Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 19 2004 Dear Perry: What you say is correct and reflects the current medical view. They know nothing of Occultism. Preserving life in an old, decrepit and almost useless body is ridiculous i= n the face of individual immortality and reincarnation -- which are spoofed a= t by present day materialism in medicine and even law. Let me put it this way: THEOSOPHY teaches a number of things that materialism currently does not know anything about. That does not make THEOSOPHY either dogmatic or wrong.=20=20 But it ought to encourage deeper research. The application of knowledge is always left to the one who provides it. Th= e motive for providing it is the desideratum of Karma. In THEOSOPHY ethics and morals are everything. Science does not yet accept those.=20 So it is up to us to use or not use. Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 7:50 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Hello Dallas, I was a little concerned over your comments on blood transfusions and organ donations. As an ex JW I know the needless and pointless suffering and waste of life that can result from these type of dogmatic beliefs. The ethical dimension to this is to me not just a matter of our attachment to the body and/or the occult effects of having someone else's blood in our veins but if we are able to extend our life though either a blood transfusion or organ donation are we not duty bound to use whatever means we can to either save someone else's (especially!!!) life or our own as long as it is not at the cost of another's? The occult consequences of these procedures while perhaps coming at a price may be far outweighed by the good we can do while in incarnation. Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: > Dec 18 2004 >=20 > Dear Vera: >=20 > You asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does THEOSOPHY > offer anything. >=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHY does not recommend either of these for the reason that the astral > body and Karma attached to those are always incompatible and dangerous to > some extent.=20 >=20 > Physical medicine and the science of modern healing look on the human body > as a fairly adaptable series if interchangeable parts - which is not so. >=20 > The Universe organizes through the astral body each person with their own > particular set of personalized and individual organs and substances. These > are always related to the individual's Karma.=20 >=20 > To some extent Medical science recognizes incompatibilities such as in blood > transfusions and the compatibility (by DNA testing) of proposed organ > transplants (heart, lungs, etc. ) and cures for cancer attacked parts of the > body.=20 >=20 > One of our problems is psychological: Most fear death. Those who have had > NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES ( NDE ) have lost such fear as they realize that > they as SPIRITUAL SOULS survive physical death. Med. Sc. Tries to preserve > "life"-- at any cost, in the most shattered of physical bodies. >=20 > THEOSOPHY states all bodies are replaceable under nature's rules and laws. > And while everyone grieves for the loss of a loved one, There is the > knowledge that under Karma we will all meet again, and love and live and > work together, in the future. [ For example, we don't grieve when one goes > to sleep before another does? We know that we will wake up and continue > life in a fresh day. It is so with the larger separation of "death." ] >=20 > I attach here an article written generally on this.=20 >=20 >=20 > THE CURE OF DISEASES >=20 >=20 > MORTAL ills and the needs of the stomach rank next after the instinct of > self-preservation among all the subjects which engage the attention of the > race.=20 > If we do not go on living we cannot do the work we think there is to do; if > we remain hungry we will lose the power to work properly or to enjoy, and at > last come to the door of death. From bad or scanty food follows a train of > physical ills called generally disease.=20 >=20 > Disease reaches us also through too much food. So in every direction these > ills attack us; even when our feeding is correct and sufficient it is found > that we fall a prey because our Karma, settled by ourselves is some previous > life, ordains that we enter on this one handicapped by the hereditary taint > due to the wickedness or the errors of our fathers and mothers.=20 >=20 > And the records of science show that the taint in the blood or the lymph may > jump over many lives, attacking with virulence some generation distant very > far from the source.=20 >=20 > What wonder, then that the cure of disease is an all-absorbing subject with > every one! The Christian knows that it is decreed by Almighty God that He > will visit the sins of the fathers upon the children even to the third and > fourth generation, and the non-believer sees that by some power in nature > the penalty is felt even so far. >=20 > All of this has given to the schools of mental and so-called "metaphysical" > healing a strong pull on the fears, the feelings, the wishes, and the bodies > of those to whom they address themselves, and especially in the United > States.=20 > That there is more attention given to the subject in America seems true to > those who have been on the other side of the Atlantic and noticed how small > is the proportion of people there who know anything about the subject. But > in the United States in every town many can be found who know about these > schools and practice after their methods. Why it has more hold here can be > left to conjecture, as the point under consideration is why it has any hold > at all. It is something like patent medicine.=20 >=20 > Offer a cure to people for their many ills, and they will take it up; offer > it cheap, and they will use it; offer it as an easy method, and they will > rush for it under certain conditions.=20 >=20 > Metaphysical healing is easy for some because it declares, first, that no > money need be paid to doctors for medicine; second, that medical fluids and > drugs may be dispensed with; and third that it is easily learned and > practiced. The difficulties that arise out of the necessities of logic are > not present for those who never studied it, but are somewhat potent with > those who reason correctly; - but that is not usual for the general run of > minds.=20 >=20 > They see certain effects and accept the assumed cause as the right one. But > many persons will not even investigate the system, because they think it > requires them to postulate the non-existence of that which they see before > their eyes.=20 >=20 > The statements quoted from the monthly Christian Science in March PATH are > bars in the way of such minds. If they could be induced to just try the > method offered for cure, belief might result, for effects indeed often > follow.=20 >=20 > But the popular mind is not in favor of "mind cure," and more prominence is > given in the daily papers to cases of death under it than to cures. And very > full reports always appear of a case such as one in March, where "faith > curers," in order to restore life, went to praying over the dead body of one > of the members of a believing family. >=20 > During a recent tour over this country from the Atlantic to the Pacific and > back, I had the opportunity of meeting hundreds of disciples of these > schools, and found in nearly all cases that they were not addicted to logic > but calmly ignored very plain propositions, satisfied that if cures were > accomplished the cause claimed must be the right one, and almost without > exception they denied the existence of evil or pain or suffering.=20 >=20 > There was a concurrence of testimony from all to show that the dominant idea > in their minds was the cure of their bodily ills and the continuance of > health. The accent was not on the beauty of holiness or the value to them > and the community of a right moral system and right life, but on the cure of > their diseases.=20 >=20 > So the conclusion has been forced home that all these schools exist because > people desire to be well more than they desire to be good, although they do > not object to goodness if that shall bring wholeness. >=20 > And, indeed, one does not have to be good to gain the benefit of the > teachings. It is enough to have confidence, to assert boldly that this does > not exist and that that has no power to hurt one.=20 > I do not say the teachers of the "science" agree with me herein, but only > that whether you are good or bad the results will follow the firm practice > of the method enjoined, irrespective of the ideas of the teachers. >=20 > For in pure mind-cure as compared with its congener "Christian Science," you > do not have to believe in Jesus and the gospels, yet the same results are > claimed, for Jesus taught that whatever you prayed for with faith, that you > should have. >=20 > Scientific research discloses that the bodies of our race are infected with > taints that cause nearly all of our diseases, and school after school of > medicine has tried and still tries to find the remedy that will dislodge the > foulness in the blood.=20 >=20 > This is scientific, since it seeks the real physical cause; metaphysical > healing says it cures, but cannot prove that the cause is destroyed and not > merely palliated.=20 >=20 > That there is some room for doubt history shows us, for none will deny that > many pure thinking and acting pair have brought forth children who displayed > some taint derived from a distant ancestor. Evidently their pure individual > thoughts had no power over the great universal development of the matter > used by those human bodies. >=20 > Turning now to medicine we find the Italian Count Mattei promulgating a > system of cure by the homeopathic use of subtle vegetable essences which may > well give pause to those who would make universal the curing by faith or > mind alone. Some of his liquids will instantly stop a violent pain, restore > sight, give back hearing, and dissipate abnormal growths. His globules will > make a drunken man sober, and, given to the nurse who suckles a babe, will > cure the child who takes the milk. The drunkard and the child do not think > about or have faith in the remedies, yet they cure. Is it not better to > restore health by physical means and leave the high teachings of the > healers, all taken from well know sources, for the benefit of our moral > nature?=20 >=20 > And if Christian healers read these lines, should they not remember that > when the prophet restored the widow's son he used physical means - his own > magnetism applied simultaneously to every member of the child's body, and > Jesus, when the woman who touched his garment was cured, lost a portion of > his vitality - not his thoughts - for he said "virtue" had gone out from > him?=20 > The Apostle also gave directions that if any were sick the others should > assemble about the bed and anoint with oil, laying on their hands meanwhile: > simply physical therapeutics following a long line of ancient precedent > dating back to Noah.=20 >=20 > Moses taught how to cure diseases and to disinfect places where contagion > lurked. It was not by using the high power of thought, but by processes > deemed by him to be effectual, such as sprinkling blood of animals > slaughtered in peculiar circumstances.=20 >=20 > Without declaring for or against his methods, it is very certain that he > supposed by these means subtle forces of a physical nature would be > liberated and brought to bear on the case in hand. >=20 > The mass of testimony through the ages is against healing physical ills by > the use of the higher forces in nature, and the reason, once well known but > later on forgotten, is the one given in the article of January, 1892, - that > diseases are gross manifestations showing themselves on their way out of the > nature so that one may be purified.=20 >=20 > To arrest them though thought ignorantly directed is to throw them back into > their cause and replant them in their mental plane. >=20 > This is the true ground of our objection to metaphysical healing practices, > which we distinguish from the assumptions and so-called philosophy on which > those methods are claimed to stand. For we distinctly urge that the effects > are not brought by any philosophical system whatever, but by the practical > though ignorant use of psycho-physiological processes. >=20 > William Q. Judge Path, September, 1892 >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > I hope this may be of some help, >=20 >=20 > Best wishes, >=20 > Dallas >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Vera Santos=20 > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 3:30 PM > To:=20 > Subject: [bn-study] help needed >=20 > Your friend asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does > THEOSOPHY offer anything. =20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20 From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Dec 19 07:20:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86029 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2004 15:20:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2004 15:20:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40913.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.210) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2004 15:20:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 62898 invoked by uid 60001); 19 Dec 2004 15:20:06 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=4cGQZlgVz3nAihgOH5/yNynfoeWqM5dZcBl4QDUmEa20ojKMj0JOBX8HhOJxYeL/R5GC95C1CD1QXlNvebtVEkoTrhIS9b3o0XiE/4yFrarL3BST5iallbiHVC2NwHFa2eSdMuz5sAxxj6p/aDecYeFaVjOWaN1ke/4YB97Q/P8= ; Message-ID: <20041219152006.62896.qmail@web40913.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40913.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 07:20:06 PST Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 07:20:06 -0800 (PST) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.78.210 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Online Writings of H.P. Blavatsky & the Mahatmas X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Online Writings of H.P. Blavatsky & the Mahatmas: An Alphabetical Listing by Title compiled by Daniel H. Caldwell See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/hpbwritingsalphalist.htm Daniel Blavatsky Study Center http://hpb.cc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Dec 19 08:06:58 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51540 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2004 16:06:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2004 16:06:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO keymaster.look.ca) (207.136.80.9) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2004 16:06:57 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.79] (helo=idirect.ca) by keymaster.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Cg3U5-0008VQ-JN for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:00:37 +0000 Message-ID: <41C5A64E.1020305@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 11:03:26 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.9 From: Mauri Subject: re Theosophy, lost civilizations X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Seems to me that one might also find lots of esoteric flavoring in Graham Hancock's FINGERPRINTS OF THE GODS. Towards the end of the book he tell's of how the last "ice age" was in keeping with where the positions of the poles were then (prior to about 13000 years ago, in very round numbers) so that lands that are now under ice in the Antarctic would have been habitable then. He says the north pole then was around the Hudson's Bay area. In other words today's continent of Antarctic could have been the fabled "Atlantis." Hancock, with help from geologists and scientists, seems to be leaning toward the theory that there may have been about a 30 degrees of arc shift in the earth's lithosphere (3 mile thick outer layer) that resulted in the shifting of the poles with respect to major land masses, resulting in the most recent "ice age." The shift having been promoted by the build up of ice in the poles. (Today's "ice age" being farther north, in and north of Canada, and farther south in the Antarctic.) Page 474: <> Seems to me that some areas of the Antarctic might eventually yield som interesting clues about a lost civilization. Anyway, Hancock seems to feel, (and I tend to agree, if somewhat speculatively ...), that there are numerous pre-dynastic ("prehistoric") structures in Egypt that, on closer examination/interpretation, (as extensively detailed in FINGERPRINTS IN THE GODS), might yield that the so called "gods" or Neteru of the First Time or Zep Tepi in ancient Egypt (before and after the last "ice age," counter to the orthodox/linear bias) built structures as a form of communication for those who would be able to read them in the (distant ...) future, alerting humans (as I tend to interpet Hancock's words) to the bigger picture of evolution, Evolution, "Higher" realities, Theosophy and the Esoteric/Wisdom Tradition. Speculatively, Mauri From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Dec 19 08:10:21 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6017 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2004 16:10:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2004 16:10:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40902.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.199) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2004 16:10:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 51182 invoked by uid 60001); 19 Dec 2004 16:10:21 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=An4pNoE88rqkjxnZnZJKpoXtlCeDWnydWjGbcG4mp5WZj8kgoDe6h4brp7q9UDNo8yfz+lVFdtUsvAW0N+HlOFuP2YfZ17sCrOvPAj2vzbPMxRVw9n1Wdpa0RoMMEnW8Jzx3FJ4lDPg9/lprXXrh379s34yXBsyAWuQnfDENu6M= ; Message-ID: <20041219161021.51180.qmail@web40902.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40902.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 08:10:21 PST Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 08:10:21 -0800 (PST) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.78.199 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Online Libraries of Theosphical Books/Articles/Documents/Talks/etc. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Online Libraries of Theosophical Books/Articles/Documents/Talks/etc. See a comprehensive list at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/hpblinks.htm#Libraries Daniel http://hpb.cc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mala514@aol.com Sun Dec 19 12:25:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 45800 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2004 20:25:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2004 20:25:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.28) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2004 20:25:02 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n14.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Dec 2004 20:24:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.159] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Dec 2004 20:24:36 -0000 X-Sender: Mala514@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 83369 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2004 14:22:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2004 14:22:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m25.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.6) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2004 14:22:41 -0000 Received: from Mala514@aol.com by imo-m25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1ee.31429e24 (4426) for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 09:21:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1ee.31429e24.2ef6e85d@aol.com> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 09:21:17 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10714 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.6 From: mala514@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World FW: 90# on the phone X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=9708843 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 19 Dec 2004 20:24:34 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.28 this is a hoax, going around the internet for years, see snopes .com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jjhe@charter.net Sun Dec 19 13:40:11 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjhe@charter.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 28679 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2004 21:40:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2004 21:40:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxsf10.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.28.210) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2004 21:40:10 -0000 Received: from mxip20.cluster1.charter.net (mxip20a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.150]) by mxsf10.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBJLddmR026020 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:39:39 -0500 Received: from 68-116-80-89.ca.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (68.116.80.89) by mxip20.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 19 Dec 2004 16:39:38 -0500 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.88,75,1102309200"; d="scan'208"; a="593628128:sNHT15378068" Message-ID: <41C5F518.6040102@charter.net> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 13:39:36 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-GB; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <000201c4e5d0$66a98340$148cb3d1@DALLAS> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.225.28.210 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Communicating Theosophy to Others. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106201926 Hello Dallas, I hope there was nothing serious that brought you to the hospital and that all is well. April's mother in law is the same age as you, and we have to watch here very carefully. These are the years when any little illness can go terribly wrong. April lost her father a couple of years ago, simply because he took too long to see a doctor. Anyway I'm glad to see that you opted to continue our exchange, so I changed the header to reflect the subject of our original conversation. I received privately several emails from people who read this bulletin board but rarely if ever contribute to it. Their emails concerned our discussion and were very positive in that they have found our exchange very informative and useful in their own efforts to communicate Theosophy to a broader audience. And, of course, this whole discussion is about how this can be done in a more effective way. I submit that the relative unpopularity of Theosophy is not because of any failing or lack in the average person, rather, it is because of the failure of individual Theosophists and Theosophical Organizations to effectively communicate to the average person. This is something that I have proven for myself over the last forty years, but I'm frankly at a loss as to how I could pose a compelling proof of this in, say, twenty words or less. Rather, developing these ideas in a dialogue format seems to work the best. You wrote: >I have an intense dislike for "buzz" words like "post modern, modernist" >etc... which signify nothing at all. That is all to me, pseudo-intellectual. >I try to deal with facts and truths, and care little for opinions and "buzz >words." > After knowing you for thirty years, I am not at all surprised by your "intense dislike" concerning the use of current philosophical terminology, and empathize with your frustrations of living in a world where words and culture are in a constant state of change. I have also lived long enough to have witnessed several such abrupt changes in our society, and you have witnessed even more of them. But this is the nature of the world which we live. We can curse the changes and/or hide from them, or we can try to keep up. Most people have to live in this world. They have to go to work, some as much as sixteen hours a day. They have to interact with others who may have very different views some of which may be hostile to their own. They don't have the luxury of high level philosophical discussions, such as the ones we put on this bulletin board. They have to contend with the realities of securing the means for food and shelter, take care of sick children etc. Was it KH who said to the effect that "we have no patience with the sunnyasis who seek enlightenment for themselves alone"? How much less patience must the Masters have for Theosophists who limit their reading to century old theosophical texts and mingle only with other Theosophists. Such a Theosophist becomes as isolated as any sunnyasi, and for the needs of this world, is about as useless. Nevertheless, I have to respectfully disagree with your putting buzz words and currently used technical terms into the same bag and tossing them all out. I also submit that you are mistaken to assert that "buzz words" signify nothing. All words have signification, and one purpose for a dictionary is to assist in the determination of signification. For instance, the word "gay" has a very different signification to your generation, then it does to someone, say, in their thirties. As for the words "post modern" and "modernist," I would not call them "buzz words." I prefer to use that term for generational expressions such as "bee's knees" a phrase from your parent's generation, now intelligible to the average twenty year old. Actually, your phrase "buzz word" is also a generational expression which arose in the 1950s. There was a short-lived young Theosophists publication titled: "Buzz of the Western Young Theosophists." As typical of Theosophical efforts, the newsletter began just as the word "buzz" had fallen out of fashion. Contrarily, such words as "post modern," "modernist," "plate tectonics," " nuclear fusion" etc. are not what I would label buzz words. Rather, they are technical terms which are laden with meaning and coined out of the necessity to communicate ideas which previously lacked a precise terminology. The ladder two terms are respectively used in oceanography and nuclear physics. The former two terms are used in all disciplines which deal with culture. These disciplines include Sociology, Psychology, Cultural Anthropology, Cultural Archeology, Philosophy, Public Administration, Political Science, Literary Criticism, etc. >They (buzz words) embrace like a mist -- insubstantially, and designed to >blur -- expressions that require deep thought and hard work to grasp. >They confuse rather then make clear. They appear to give elevation to a >conversation in which most try to make points by seeming to know much (of >what ?) -- just repartie. > For generational expressions, perhaps yes. For technical terms such as post-modernism, I will again have to respectfully disagree. It is just the opposite. Terms used in the hard sciences and the social sciences are designed to clarify what has previously been a blur. Yes, the terms may confuse a reader who is unfamiliar with the subject at hand. But, is that the fault of the term, the subject, or the reader? So, does the terms modernism and post-modernism have a place in a discussion of how to promulgate Theosophy? I would say yes, because learning how to better communicate Theosophy (or any other subject, for that matter) to others concerns the understanding of our own culture. Therefore, the term has just as much of a place in Theosophy as it does in any philosophy or other discipline related to the social sciences. It is true that the term was unknown in HPB's time. But, her writings show that she indeed understood the concept, though she did not have a term to express it. Her comment about the ancient Egyptians have an entirely different way of thinking about things as compared to the archeologists of her time is an example. >Buy the way, I think HPB has expressed a great deal on Education in The KEY >TO THEOSOPHY -- I would find it difficult to say more. > > Please try anyway. I am very interested in your views on what HPB says about education. Best Wishes Jerry W.Dallas TenBroeck wrote: >Dec 19 2004 > >Dear Jerry and Dan: > > May I do a little breaking in? > >I did not mean to terminate our exchanges > >I had to go to the hospital for a while. Now trying to catch up. > >Excuse me for brevity. > >Buy the way, I think HPB has expressed a great deal on Education in The KEY >TO THEOSOPHY -- I would find it difficult to say more. > > >If "thinking" could only be taught -- if freedom and independence from >"authority" were insisted on, then their might be real progress. > > >THEOSOPHY is a moral affair and not just head learning or the application of >the laws of Nature for selfish advantage (black magic). Nor is it merely a >bunch of quotes. > >I would hardly classify myself as an "apologist" for THEOSOPHY. A >protagonist, or an advertiser -- yes. > >But I also say at almost every turn: do your own work. Study, find out. >Don't trust "authorities." Let no one say they "think for you." > >THEOSOPHY defends itself quite well without any effort on my part -- if only >people would study it. If they don't then who suffers? > >Main trouble is that most go by opinions, and few actually try to prove to >themselves the verity (or reverse) of opinions adopted. They spend a lot of >time defending themselves, and especially their prejudices. If we could all >see this clearly, for ourselves, then 9/10ths of the confusion would vanish. > > >I have studied THEOSOPHY most of my life. To me it is a statement of facts >in Nature. Others may have their own views. > >I have an intense dislike for "buzz" words like "post modern, modernist" >etc... which signify nothing at all. That is all to me, pseudo-intellectual. >I try to deal with facts and truths, and care little for opinions and "buzz >words." > >In a few years those will be replaced, by other and newer "buzzes." -- and >what will not? THEOSOPHY will remain -- if it is indeed a statement of >facts in nature. It may be called something else, but the facts, however >named, will still be FACTS. > >They (buzz words) embrace like a mist -- insubstantially, and designed to >blur -- expressions that require deep thought and hard work to grasp. >They confuse rather then make clear. They appear to give elevation to a >conversation in which most try to make points by seeming to know much (of >what ?) -- just repartie. > >Simply put: there is actually no "religion" higher than truth and fact. > > THEOSOPHY is a statement of the cause and reality, including the >laws and existence of all beings. > >A single word defines it completely: BROTHERHOOD. > >Best wishes, > >Dallas > > > From John@GodLovesEveryone.org Sun Dec 19 15:16:06 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: john@GodLovesEveryone.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 56148 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2004 23:16:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2004 23:16:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2004 23:16:05 -0000 Received: from user-v8o1d44.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.128.180.132] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CgAHU-0004eM-Jt; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 18:16:05 -0500 Message-ID: <41C60BB3.9080603@GodLovesEveryone.org> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 17:16:03 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <1ee.31429e24.2ef6e85d@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <1ee.31429e24.2ef6e85d@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 9118488001fc12941aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec799ab9a74bbf0f6408f5fc0630eac5fdfb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.65 From: "john, webmaster, www.GodLovesEveryone.org" Reply-To: recommendations@literacycurriculums.com X-Originating-IP: 209.128.180.132 Subject: Re: Theos-World FW: 90# on the phone X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=102437908 X-Yahoo-Profile: www_godloveseveryone_org mala514@aol.com wrote: > this is a hoax, going around the internet for years, see snopes .com And before that, it was going around by faxes. Basically, it can only affect a company phone system that has you press 9 to get an outside line then zero to get the operator. Even then, it could only affect someone who is able to make a second phone call simultaneous with being on the first. So, it has a germ of the truth, but is a hoax nonetheless, because it can affect very few people. -- John, webmaster www.GodLovesEveryone.org and www.MAZES.com P.S. Are you looking for a great gift for the spiritual someone on your list? Look no further. http://www.spiritual-dvds-every-month.com/ or: http://www.GodLovesEveryone.org/spiritual-dvds-every-month/ I checked out one month's worth of DVDs and loved every minute. And I really appreciated the fact that they didn't try to promote just one point of view. From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 19 16:19:03 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91510 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 00:19:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 00:19:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.77) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 00:19:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 31930 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Dec 2004 00:19:02 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=mmVIASptmlUZiRSDLoSFtuA4Slkf7rmwG5Rb3i/eAoNB3lOBvZBcK1ghuxw5IuPlAuCbXeqBPwRTXk1znAOJ0bRPp7Yu2b6cbtaQK8oY2PPjoJd81BBMuu1mZA/fXBI1x3pugmGAIEa+KfVLgdG0bSX6ogNVI1zxQcuo6sBLesA= ; Message-ID: <20041220001902.31928.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:19:02 PST Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:19:02 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20041218051301.90946.qmail@web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.77 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Errors in the primary literature X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bart Sorry for taking so long but the weekend leaves me little time. I have responded in a question,answer format as follows. Cass Silva wrote: Bart Lidofsky wrote: Cass Silva wrote: > As these ideas were so revolutionary at the time and HPB was not a > native english speaker or writer of english, language > misinterpretations may have occured which were cleared up by > KootHoomi. I do not believe that the truth was misinterpreted, but > there arose a need for words to describe the undescribable and when > this happens the words are misinterpreted but never the message. B: That is why I use the following rule in reading the primary literature: If the Secret Doctrine differs from current scientific knowledge, I look for the following: 1) Am I making assumptions which are not necessarily warranted? C: I think it is a good starting point, but "current scientific knowledge" needs to be verified in the same way. As an example of this, 20 years ago the corpus callosum was severed in severly handicapped Epileptic patients.(To control their seizures) They cut off the right and left brain connection by severing the Corpus Callosum- the nerve system connecting left and right brain hemisphere activity. They cut something like 2 billion nerve cells connecting Left and Right brain hemispheres, leaving an abyss. Think it is also called split brain surgery. What Science discovered was that after the disconnection, the left hand took on a will or mind of its own, becoming alien to the rest of the body. The right hand in fact didnt know what the left hand was doing. One of the patients said that she feared that her left hand would attack her beloved cats and her greatest fear was that she wouldn't be able to stop it. Science to try and make sense of it, postulated the theory that when the brain is split, two identities can emerge and more or less fight for control. These two identities, ipso facto, must have two separate consciousnessess. They even gave an example of how people with a fully operational Corpus Callosum can sometimes find themselves singing for no reason, and they (Science) postulate that this is the other consciousness. -Although left and right brain are merged in this case, "the other consciousness" can sometimes appear "out of the blue" and start singing! (I use layman's terms, but please look up the Web and you will get more scientific data). This to me is the silliest notion I have ever heard of, Science cannot begin to understand anything beyond sub-conscious in one identify, but now they are postulating sub-conscious in two identity's sharing the same brain and operating at the same time? One consciousness operates through the brain, the other operates through the Hand. If nothing else, wouldnt it be easier to admit that "intelligence" is in every organ of the body, and start a new theory based on that assumption (and the observational fact) that the hand is intelligent enough to demand its own way. And this Brain Hand requires the intervention of supreme willpower to stop it, temporarily. But no, they are trying to make of us double brained monsters to make sure that their original theory is not bastardised. Their theory now is Two Heads are Better than One!! Let's hope they never "prove" it (in their terms) as, can you imagine the legal ramifications, I didn't do it, my hand did. The punishment, cut off the hand, then what? the consciousness simply transfers itself to the left leg! It is funny, but very scary. They are basing their hypothesis on the assumption they postulate as fact. 2) Is there a way of interpreting the words to conform with current scientific knowledge? C: I guess it is a matter of finding out whether the horse (Theosophy)comes before the cart (current scientific knowledge), or the cart comes before the horse? 3) Is there any evidence that this comes from information that was received second-hand, which is incorrect? C: Yes, information can be distorted by the receiver, unless the two minds are of "like" nature, the essence (truthful information) can be lost on some. B: "What does modern science know of force proper, or say the forces, the cause or causes of motion? How can there be such a thing as potential energy, i.e., an energy having latent inactive power since it is energy only while it is moving matter, and that if it ever ceased to move matter it would cease to be, and with it matter itself would disappear?" C: Force Proper - (and) the cause or causes of motion? There are two concepts rolled into one here. Force is Energy or Power. Motion is Activity or Movement. Force causes Motion. and while it is "Force" when it is moving matter. It is "something else" when it is not moving matter (a something, which has the propensity to move matter if it is willed into action). I could be, and probably am, totally off the mark here, as I said, I am a layman and one of our onboard scientists may be able to verify or discredit this analyzation of mine. B: The reason why I often use this statement as an example is that it clearly shows that the Koot Hoomi is clearly using an incorrect definition of the term, "potential energy". Give the definition that he is using, he is most probably correct, but if you ignore the definition, then he is wrong. There IS such a thing as potential energy, but it is NOT what is being described. So, applying the three tests: 1) One might assume that Koot Hoomi is personally familiar with then-current knowledge of physics, and knew what was meant by the term "potential energy." C: Again, as a non scientist, I do not know whether 1899 Science was using these terms to describe the then-current knowledge of physics, but if they were not, and the terms were say, novel for that period, then it implies that KH and HPB understood that a "prophet is never recognized in his own time" and that, we, the future generations, clearly would understand the terms. Otherwise, he and HPB would have been conducting an exercise in futility, if they were exposing truths in language that no one would understand 100 years hence. B: 2) By looking at the definition rather than the term, it DOES fit with current scientific knowledge. C:Do you mean the definition of Potent is Powerful, the definition of Impotent is Powerless, so Potential Energy is a force of power? B: 3) Since this was an answer to a letter written by a non-physicist, it is not unreasonable that the letter contained the term "potential energy" with the incorrect definition. B: It has been theorized, and has so far stood up to all experimentation, that humans can only think in terms of symbols. The problem with symbols is that they can be manipulated into something self-contradictory, and therefore meaningless. For example: The sentence on the next line is false. The sentence on the previous line is true. C:The paradox is that neither sentences say anything in the real world other than what is true is false and what is false is true. Meaningless, they both negate each other. In terms of humans only being able to think in terms of symbols. Are you referring to Metaphors, Simile's, Analogies Parables?otherwise, I am the exception to the rule because a symbol to me (e.g. crop circle) is a piece of art and nothing more. Whatever it symbolises it keeps to itself, it hold's within its essence the meaning, if any. And even that must be subjective as it's symbol is a reflection of it's own reality or subjective experience. Symbolists will probably be raising their arms in defence, but any potent symbol, is so, because it has been impregnated with human thought,desire and will, and is not powerful in itself. Anyway, That is my opinion. B: We appear to have a paradox. What we have is a bunch of glowing phosphors on a screen, or a bunch of drops of inks on a piece of paper, that appear to create a meaningful pattern, but in fact create a meaningless pattern. C: Although it produces a "meaningful pattern" or a "meaningless pattern". It produces or replicates the same pattern therefore stands as a fact that certain combinations produce certain effects and remains within its evolutionary nature. It is true to itself. B: While I would not go as far as the late philosopher, Jacques Derrida, in his theories of Deconstructionism, he DID have a good basic point that language is always ambiguous. C: and elusive Bart Looking forward to your comments Have a good Christmas Cass Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 19 16:22:15 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 4431 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 00:22:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 00:22:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.75) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 00:22:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 59091 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Dec 2004 00:22:15 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=J4M+owW3IBhcFiSDz5M3tu/RwsQ5MIgvbjsmZfTFbYorBfiplX6X9u22O7lOck9x+s3KZ8g+akFiRV6xMZg8iTZoiqSa1TWAlOv7mu/KQwN9pls7TEGXlfshgOMrdkR8qQJUdhlFK2JiOwul5oWHZFcuS/UAt9r4ynElqoZHOKk= ; Message-ID: <20041220002215.59089.qmail@web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:22:15 PST Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:22:15 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <41C30E8A.80401@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.75 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Errors in the primary literature X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bart Sorry for taking so long but the weekend leaves me little time. I have responded in a question,answer format as follows. Cass Silva wrote: Bart Lidofsky wrote: Cass Silva wrote: > As these ideas were so revolutionary at the time and HPB was not a > native english speaker or writer of english, language > misinterpretations may have occured which were cleared up by > KootHoomi. I do not believe that the truth was misinterpreted, but > there arose a need for words to describe the undescribable and when > this happens the words are misinterpreted but never the message. B: That is why I use the following rule in reading the primary literature: If the Secret Doctrine differs from current scientific knowledge, I look for the following: 1) Am I making assumptions which are not necessarily warranted? C: I think it is a good starting point, but "current scientific knowledge" needs to be verified in the same way. As an example of this, 20 years ago the corpus callosum was severed in severly handicapped Epileptic patients.(To control their seizures) They cut off the right and left brain connection by severing the Corpus Callosum- the nerve system connecting left and right brain hemisphere activity. They cut something like 2 billion nerve cells connecting Left and Right brain hemispheres, leaving an abyss. Think it is also called split brain surgery. What Science discovered was that after the disconnection, the left hand took on a will or mind of its own, becoming alien to the rest of the body. The right hand in fact didnt know what the left hand was doing. One of the patients said that she feared that her left hand would attack her beloved cats and her greatest fear was that she wouldn't be able to stop it. Science to try and make sense of it, postulated the theory that when the brain is split, two identities can emerge and more or less fight for control. These two identities, ipso facto, must have two separate consciousnessess. They even gave an example of how people with a fully operational Corpus Callosum can sometimes find themselves singing for no reason, and they (Science) postulate that this is the other consciousness. -Although left and right brain are merged in this case, "the other consciousness" can sometimes appear "out of the blue" and start singing! (I use layman's terms, but please look up the Web and you will get more scientific data). This to me is the silliest notion I have ever heard of, Science cannot begin to understand anything beyond sub-conscious in one identify, but now they are postulating sub-conscious in two identity's sharing the same brain and operating at the same time? One consciousness operates through the brain, the other operates through the Hand. If nothing else, wouldnt it be easier to admit that "intelligence" is in every organ of the body, and start a new theory based on that assumption (and the observational fact) that the hand is intelligent enough to demand its own way. And this Brain Hand requires the intervention of supreme willpower to stop it, temporarily. But no, they are trying to make of us double brained monsters to make sure that their original theory is not bastardised. Their theory now is Two Heads are Better than One!! Let's hope they never "prove" it (in their terms) as, can you imagine the legal ramifications, I didn't do it, my hand did. The punishment, cut off the hand, then what? the consciousness simply transfers itself to the left leg! It is funny, but very scary. They are basing their hypothesis on the assumption they postulate as fact. 2) Is there a way of interpreting the words to conform with current scientific knowledge? C: I guess it is a matter of finding out whether the horse (Theosophy)comes before the cart (current scientific knowledge), or the cart comes before the horse? 3) Is there any evidence that this comes from information that was received second-hand, which is incorrect? C: Yes, information can be distorted by the receiver, unless the two minds are of "like" nature, the essence (truthful information) can be lost on some. B: "What does modern science know of force proper, or say the forces, the cause or causes of motion? How can there be such a thing as potential energy, i.e., an energy having latent inactive power since it is energy only while it is moving matter, and that if it ever ceased to move matter it would cease to be, and with it matter itself would disappear?" C: Force Proper - (and) the cause or causes of motion? There are two concepts rolled into one here. Force is Energy or Power. Motion is Activity or Movement. Force causes Motion. and while it is "Force" when it is moving matter. It is "something else" when it is not moving matter (a something, which has the propensity to move matter if it is willed into action). I could be, and probably am, totally off the mark here, as I said, I am a layman and one of our onboard scientists may be able to verify or discredit this analyzation of mine. B: The reason why I often use this statement as an example is that it clearly shows that the Koot Hoomi is clearly using an incorrect definition of the term, "potential energy". Give the definition that he is using, he is most probably correct, but if you ignore the definition, then he is wrong. There IS such a thing as potential energy, but it is NOT what is being described. So, applying the three tests: 1) One might assume that Koot Hoomi is personally familiar with then-current knowledge of physics, and knew what was meant by the term "potential energy." C: Again, as a non scientist, I do not know whether 1899 Science was using these terms to describe the then-current knowledge of physics, but if they were not, and the terms were say, novel for that period, then it implies that KH and HPB understood that a "prophet is never recognized in his own time" and that, we, the future generations, clearly would understand the terms. Otherwise, he and HPB would have been conducting an exercise in futility, if they were exposing truths in language that no one would understand 100 years hence. B: 2) By looking at the definition rather than the term, it DOES fit with current scientific knowledge. C:Do you mean the definition of Potent is Powerful, the definition of Impotent is Powerless, so Potential Energy is a force of power? B: 3) Since this was an answer to a letter written by a non-physicist, it is not unreasonable that the letter contained the term "potential energy" with the incorrect definition. B: It has been theorized, and has so far stood up to all experimentation, that humans can only think in terms of symbols. The problem with symbols is that they can be manipulated into something self-contradictory, and therefore meaningless. For example: The sentence on the next line is false. The sentence on the previous line is true. C:The paradox is that neither sentences say anything in the real world other than what is true is false and what is false is true. Meaningless, they both negate each other. In terms of humans only being able to think in terms of symbols. Are you referring to Metaphors, Simile's, Analogies Parables?otherwise, I am the exception to the rule because a symbol to me (e.g. crop circle) is a piece of art and nothing more. Whatever it symbolises it keeps to itself, it hold's within its essence the meaning, if any. And even that must be subjective as it's symbol is a reflection of it's own reality or subjective experience. Symbolists will probably be raising their arms in defence, but any potent symbol, is so, because it has been impregnated with human thought,desire and will, and is not powerful in itself. Anyway, That is my opinion. B: We appear to have a paradox. What we have is a bunch of glowing phosphors on a screen, or a bunch of drops of inks on a piece of paper, that appear to create a meaningful pattern, but in fact create a meaningless pattern. C: Although it produces a "meaningful pattern" or a "meaningless pattern". It produces or replicates the same pattern therefore stands as a fact that certain combinations produce certain effects and remains within its evolutionary nature. It is true to itself. B: While I would not go as far as the late philosopher, Jacques Derrida, in his theories of Deconstructionism, he DID have a good basic point that language is always ambiguous. C: and elusive Bart Looking forward to your comments Have a good Christmas Cass Bart Lidofsky wrote: Cass Silva wrote: > As these ideas were so revolutionary at the time and HPB was not a > native english speaker or writer of english, language > misinterpretations may have occured which were cleared up by > KootHoomi. I do not believe that the truth was misinterpreted, but > there arose a need for words to describe the undescribable and when > this happens the words are misinterpreted but never the message. That is why I use the following rule in reading the primary literature: If the Secret Doctrine differs from current scientific knowledge, I look for the following: 1) Am I making assumptions which are not necessarily warranted? 2) Is there a way of interpreting the words to conform with current scientific knowledge? 3) Is there any evidence that this comes from information that was received second-hand, which is incorrect? For example, in Mahatma Letter #65 (by the way, anybody who wants to do serious Theosophical research should get a copy of THEOSOPHICAL CLASSICS; for $24.95, it's an incredibly useful tool, containing ISIS UNVEILED, THE SECRET DOCTRINE, THE MAHATMA LETTERS, THE COLLECTED WRITINGS OF H.P.B., and several other sources): "What does modern science know of force proper, or say the forces, the cause or causes of motion? How can there be such a thing as potential energy, i.e., an energy having latent inactive power since it is energy only while it is moving matter, and that if it ever ceased to move matter it would cease to be, and with it matter itself would disappear?" The reason why I often use this statement as an example is that it clearly shows that the Koot Hoomi is clearly using an incorrect definition of the term, "potential energy". Give the definition that he is using, he is most probably correct, but if you ignore the definition, then he is wrong. There IS such a thing as potential energy, but it is NOT what is being described. So, applying the three tests: 1) One might assume that Koot Hoomi is personally familiar with then-current knowledge of physics, and knew what was meant by the term "potential energy." 2) By looking at the definition rather than the term, it DOES fit with current scientific knowledge. 3) Since this was an answer to a letter written by a non-physicist, it is not unreasonable that the letter contained the term "potential energy" with the incorrect definition. It has been theorized, and has so far stood up to all experimentation, that humans can only think in terms of symbols. The problem with symbols is that they can be manipulated into something self-contradictory, and therefore meaningless. For example: The sentence on the next line is false. The sentence on the previous line is true. We appear to have a paradox. What we have is a bunch of glowing phosphors on a screen, or a bunch of drops of inks on a piece of paper, that appear to create a meaningful pattern, but in fact create a meaningless pattern. While I would not go as far as the late philosopher, Jacques Derrida, in his theories of Deconstructionism, he DID have a good basic point that language is always ambiguous. Bart Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From perrycoles@yahoo.com Sun Dec 19 16:47:24 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: perrycoles@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7705 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 00:47:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 00:47:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.44) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 00:47:23 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 00:46:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.248] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 00:46:55 -0000 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 00:46:51 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002f01c4e5d5$551dd630$148cb3d1@DALLAS> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 14731 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.44 From: "Perry Coles" X-Originating-IP: 203.59.213.155 Subject: Re: [bn-study] help needed X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=93736069 X-Yahoo-Profile: perrycoles Hi Dallas, I hope your well , As with all things we as individuals need to try and use wise discernment and certainly when it comes to ourselves our choices are our own based on our knowledge and understanding of occult principles. But when it comes to children who lives could have been saved by a blood transfusion, I simply find it outrageous that these children have been allowed to die over a discission made by the parents because of the blind following of dogma. I hope no theosophical student would ever follow any theosophical statement blindly no matter who wrote it. Theosophical study is one as you know that takes lifetimes of work and is not meant to be followed blindly but rather Self realised. The information may or may not be correct we can never presume that it is correct especially if a persons life other than our own hangs in the balance. What we choose for ourselves is another matter. Sorry to hear you've been in hospital hope alls ok! Regards Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: > Dec 19 2004 > > Dear Perry: > > What you say is correct and reflects the current medical view. > > They know nothing of Occultism. > > Preserving life in an old, decrepit and almost useless body is ridiculous in > the face of individual immortality and reincarnation -- which are spoofed at > by present day materialism in medicine and even law. > > Let me put it this way: THEOSOPHY teaches a number of things that > materialism currently does not know anything about. That does not make > THEOSOPHY either dogmatic or wrong. > > But it ought to encourage deeper research. > > The application of knowledge is always left to the one who provides it. The > motive for providing it is the desideratum of Karma. > > In THEOSOPHY ethics and morals are everything. Science does not yet accept > those. > > So it is up to us to use or not use. > > Dallas > > ============================ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@y...] > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 7:50 PM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed > > > > Hello Dallas, > I was a little concerned over your comments on blood transfusions and > organ donations. > As an ex JW I know the needless and pointless suffering and waste of > life that can result from these type of dogmatic beliefs. > > The ethical dimension to this is to me not just a matter of our > attachment to the body and/or the occult effects of having someone > else's blood in our veins but if we are able to extend our life though > either a blood transfusion or organ donation are we not duty bound to > use whatever means we can to either save someone else's > (especially!!!) life or our own as long as it is not at the cost of > another's? > > The occult consequences of these procedures while perhaps coming at a > price may be far outweighed by the good we can do while in incarnation. > > Perry > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" > wrote: > > Dec 18 2004 > > > > Dear Vera: > > > > You asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does THEOSOPHY > > offer anything. > > > > > > THEOSOPHY does not recommend either of these for the reason that the > astral > > body and Karma attached to those are always incompatible and > dangerous to > > some extent. > > > > Physical medicine and the science of modern healing look on the > human body > > as a fairly adaptable series if interchangeable parts - which is > not so. > > > > The Universe organizes through the astral body each person with > their own > > particular set of personalized and individual organs and substances. > These > > are always related to the individual's Karma. > > > > To some extent Medical science recognizes incompatibilities such as > in blood > > transfusions and the compatibility (by DNA testing) of proposed organ > > transplants (heart, lungs, etc. ) and cures for cancer attacked > parts of the > > body. > > > > One of our problems is psychological: Most fear death. Those who > have had > > NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES ( NDE ) have lost such fear as they realize that > > they as SPIRITUAL SOULS survive physical death. Med. Sc. Tries to > preserve > > "life"-- at any cost, in the most shattered of physical bodies. > > > > THEOSOPHY states all bodies are replaceable under nature's rules and > laws. > > And while everyone grieves for the loss of a loved one, There is the > > knowledge that under Karma we will all meet again, and love and live and > > work together, in the future. [ For example, we don't grieve when > one goes > > to sleep before another does? We know that we will wake up and continue > > life in a fresh day. It is so with the larger separation of "death." ] > > > > I attach here an article written generally on this. > > > > > > THE CURE OF DISEASES > > > > > > MORTAL ills and the needs of the stomach rank next after the instinct of > > self-preservation among all the subjects which engage the attention > of the > > race. > > If we do not go on living we cannot do the work we think there is to > do; if > > we remain hungry we will lose the power to work properly or to > enjoy, and at > > last come to the door of death. From bad or scanty food follows a > train of > > physical ills called generally disease. > > > > Disease reaches us also through too much food. So in every direction > these > > ills attack us; even when our feeding is correct and sufficient it > is found > > that we fall a prey because our Karma, settled by ourselves is some > previous > > life, ordains that we enter on this one handicapped by the > hereditary taint > > due to the wickedness or the errors of our fathers and mothers. > > > > And the records of science show that the taint in the blood or the > lymph may > > jump over many lives, attacking with virulence some generation > distant very > > far from the source. > > > > What wonder, then that the cure of disease is an all-absorbing > subject with > > every one! The Christian knows that it is decreed by Almighty God > that He > > will visit the sins of the fathers upon the children even to the > third and > > fourth generation, and the non-believer sees that by some power in > nature > > the penalty is felt even so far. > > > > All of this has given to the schools of mental and so-called > "metaphysical" > > healing a strong pull on the fears, the feelings, the wishes, and > the bodies > > of those to whom they address themselves, and especially in the United > > States. > > That there is more attention given to the subject in America seems > true to > > those who have been on the other side of the Atlantic and noticed > how small > > is the proportion of people there who know anything about the > subject. But > > in the United States in every town many can be found who know about > these > > schools and practice after their methods. Why it has more hold here > can be > > left to conjecture, as the point under consideration is why it has > any hold > > at all. It is something like patent medicine. > > > > Offer a cure to people for their many ills, and they will take it > up; offer > > it cheap, and they will use it; offer it as an easy method, and they > will > > rush for it under certain conditions. > > > > Metaphysical healing is easy for some because it declares, first, > that no > > money need be paid to doctors for medicine; second, that medical > fluids and > > drugs may be dispensed with; and third that it is easily learned and > > practiced. The difficulties that arise out of the necessities of > logic are > > not present for those who never studied it, but are somewhat potent with > > those who reason correctly; - but that is not usual for the general > run of > > minds. > > > > They see certain effects and accept the assumed cause as the right > one. But > > many persons will not even investigate the system, because they think it > > requires them to postulate the non-existence of that which they see > before > > their eyes. > > > > The statements quoted from the monthly Christian Science in March > PATH are > > bars in the way of such minds. If they could be induced to just try the > > method offered for cure, belief might result, for effects indeed often > > follow. > > > > But the popular mind is not in favor of "mind cure," and more > prominence is > > given in the daily papers to cases of death under it than to cures. > And very > > full reports always appear of a case such as one in March, where "faith > > curers," in order to restore life, went to praying over the dead > body of one > > of the members of a believing family. > > > > During a recent tour over this country from the Atlantic to the > Pacific and > > back, I had the opportunity of meeting hundreds of disciples of these > > schools, and found in nearly all cases that they were not addicted > to logic > > but calmly ignored very plain propositions, satisfied that if cures were > > accomplished the cause claimed must be the right one, and almost without > > exception they denied the existence of evil or pain or suffering. > > > > There was a concurrence of testimony from all to show that the > dominant idea > > in their minds was the cure of their bodily ills and the continuance of > > health. The accent was not on the beauty of holiness or the value to > them > > and the community of a right moral system and right life, but on the > cure of > > their diseases. > > > > So the conclusion has been forced home that all these schools exist > because > > people desire to be well more than they desire to be good, although > they do > > not object to goodness if that shall bring wholeness. > > > > And, indeed, one does not have to be good to gain the benefit of the > > teachings. It is enough to have confidence, to assert boldly that > this does > > not exist and that that has no power to hurt one. > > I do not say the teachers of the "science" agree with me herein, but > only > > that whether you are good or bad the results will follow the firm > practice > > of the method enjoined, irrespective of the ideas of the teachers. > > > > For in pure mind-cure as compared with its congener "Christian > Science," you > > do not have to believe in Jesus and the gospels, yet the same > results are > > claimed, for Jesus taught that whatever you prayed for with faith, > that you > > should have. > > > > Scientific research discloses that the bodies of our race are > infected with > > taints that cause nearly all of our diseases, and school after school of > > medicine has tried and still tries to find the remedy that will > dislodge the > > foulness in the blood. > > > > This is scientific, since it seeks the real physical cause; metaphysical > > healing says it cures, but cannot prove that the cause is destroyed > and not > > merely palliated. > > > > That there is some room for doubt history shows us, for none will > deny that > > many pure thinking and acting pair have brought forth children who > displayed > > some taint derived from a distant ancestor. Evidently their pure > individual > > thoughts had no power over the great universal development of the matter > > used by those human bodies. > > > > Turning now to medicine we find the Italian Count Mattei promulgating a > > system of cure by the homeopathic use of subtle vegetable essences > which may > > well give pause to those who would make universal the curing by faith or > > mind alone. Some of his liquids will instantly stop a violent pain, > restore > > sight, give back hearing, and dissipate abnormal growths. His > globules will > > make a drunken man sober, and, given to the nurse who suckles a > babe, will > > cure the child who takes the milk. The drunkard and the child do not > think > > about or have faith in the remedies, yet they cure. Is it not better to > > restore health by physical means and leave the high teachings of the > > healers, all taken from well know sources, for the benefit of our moral > > nature? > > > > And if Christian healers read these lines, should they not remember that > > when the prophet restored the widow's son he used physical means - > his own > > magnetism applied simultaneously to every member of the child's > body, and > > Jesus, when the woman who touched his garment was cured, lost a > portion of > > his vitality - not his thoughts - for he said "virtue" had gone out from > > him? > > The Apostle also gave directions that if any were sick the others should > > assemble about the bed and anoint with oil, laying on their hands > meanwhile: > > simply physical therapeutics following a long line of ancient precedent > > dating back to Noah. > > > > Moses taught how to cure diseases and to disinfect places where > contagion > > lurked. It was not by using the high power of thought, but by processes > > deemed by him to be effectual, such as sprinkling blood of animals > > slaughtered in peculiar circumstances. > > > > Without declaring for or against his methods, it is very certain that he > > supposed by these means subtle forces of a physical nature would be > > liberated and brought to bear on the case in hand. > > > > The mass of testimony through the ages is against healing physical > ills by > > the use of the higher forces in nature, and the reason, once well > known but > > later on forgotten, is the one given in the article of January, > 1892, - that > > diseases are gross manifestations showing themselves on their way > out of the > > nature so that one may be purified. > > > > To arrest them though thought ignorantly directed is to throw them > back into > > their cause and replant them in their mental plane. > > > > This is the true ground of our objection to metaphysical healing > practices, > > which we distinguish from the assumptions and so-called philosophy > on which > > those methods are claimed to stand. For we distinctly urge that the > effects > > are not brought by any philosophical system whatever, but by the > practical > > though ignorant use of psycho-physiological processes. > > > > William Q. Judge Path, September, 1892 > > > > > > ======================================== > > > > I hope this may be of some help, > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Dallas > > > > > > =================== > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Vera Santos > > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 3:30 PM > > To: > > Subject: [bn-study] help needed > > > > Your friend asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does > > THEOSOPHY offer anything. > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 19 17:05:51 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 85047 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 01:05:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 01:05:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.75) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 01:05:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 65895 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Dec 2004 01:05:50 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Oqi7gYCw8AYMUk8aliHzgaddsPnn1OPQAiQ9SHGtJrZjVg9RCDT7lMEtXsSBfk7AP7vp4WMfeMPeRmXOsmuZS8aahF/kak6hxjJMCy83cm3i/h5/GJsMlZJjhiAawf72uqlo/mbC39L6usVW0pR3vyVGrOrqxt3cfUuXSg85wzM= ; Message-ID: <20041220010550.65893.qmail@web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 17:05:50 PST Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 17:05:50 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.75 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed - Blood Transfusions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hope you dont mind me jumping in. Why can't we recycle our own blood and u= se it when we get sick? Or even a family blood bank, where our blood goes = to those immediate family members who are in need of it? It may be tainted= with their Karma, but provided the karma is relatively "good" then the tra= nsference of negativity would be lessened? No? Cass Perry Coles wrote: Hi Dallas, I hope your well , As with all things we as individuals need to try and use wise discernment and certainly when it comes to ourselves our choices are our own based on our knowledge and understanding of occult principles. But when it comes to children who lives could have been saved by a blood transfusion, I simply find it outrageous that these children have been allowed to die over a discission made by the parents because of the blind following of dogma. I hope no theosophical student would ever follow any theosophical statement blindly no matter who wrote it. Theosophical study is one as you know that takes lifetimes of work and is not meant to be followed blindly but rather Self realised. The information may or may not be correct we can never presume that it is correct especially if a persons life other than our own hangs in the balance. What we choose for ourselves is another matter. Sorry to hear you've been in hospital hope alls ok! Regards Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: > Dec 19 2004 >=20 > Dear Perry: >=20 > What you say is correct and reflects the current medical view. >=20 > They know nothing of Occultism. >=20 > Preserving life in an old, decrepit and almost useless body is ridiculous in > the face of individual immortality and reincarnation -- which are spoofed at > by present day materialism in medicine and even law. >=20 > Let me put it this way: THEOSOPHY teaches a number of things that > materialism currently does not know anything about. That does not make > THEOSOPHY either dogmatic or wrong.=20 >=20 > But it ought to encourage deeper research. >=20 > The application of knowledge is always left to the one who provides it. The > motive for providing it is the desideratum of Karma. >=20 > In THEOSOPHY ethics and morals are everything. Science does not yet accept > those.=20 >=20 > So it is up to us to use or not use. >=20 > Dallas >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@y...]=20 > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 7:50 PM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed >=20 >=20 >=20 > Hello Dallas, > I was a little concerned over your comments on blood transfusions and > organ donations. > As an ex JW I know the needless and pointless suffering and waste of > life that can result from these type of dogmatic beliefs. >=20 > The ethical dimension to this is to me not just a matter of our > attachment to the body and/or the occult effects of having someone > else's blood in our veins but if we are able to extend our life though > either a blood transfusion or organ donation are we not duty bound to > use whatever means we can to either save someone else's > (especially!!!) life or our own as long as it is not at the cost of > another's? >=20 > The occult consequences of these procedures while perhaps coming at a > price may be far outweighed by the good we can do while in incarnation. >=20 > Perry >=20 >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" > wrote: > > Dec 18 2004 > >=20 > > Dear Vera: > >=20 > > You asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does THEOSOPHY > > offer anything. > >=20 > >=20 > > THEOSOPHY does not recommend either of these for the reason that the > astral > > body and Karma attached to those are always incompatible and > dangerous to > > some extent.=20 > >=20 > > Physical medicine and the science of modern healing look on the > human body > > as a fairly adaptable series if interchangeable parts - which is > not so. > >=20 > > The Universe organizes through the astral body each person with > their own > > particular set of personalized and individual organs and substances. > These > > are always related to the individual's Karma.=20 > >=20 > > To some extent Medical science recognizes incompatibilities such as > in blood > > transfusions and the compatibility (by DNA testing) of proposed organ > > transplants (heart, lungs, etc. ) and cures for cancer attacked > parts of the > > body.=20 > >=20 > > One of our problems is psychological: Most fear death. Those who > have had > > NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES ( NDE ) have lost such fear as they realize that > > they as SPIRITUAL SOULS survive physical death. Med. Sc. Tries to > preserve > > "life"-- at any cost, in the most shattered of physical bodies. > >=20 > > THEOSOPHY states all bodies are replaceable under nature's rules and > laws. > > And while everyone grieves for the loss of a loved one, There is the > > knowledge that under Karma we will all meet again, and love and live and > > work together, in the future. [ For example, we don't grieve when > one goes > > to sleep before another does? We know that we will wake up and continue > > life in a fresh day. It is so with the larger separation of "death." ] > >=20 > > I attach here an article written generally on this.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > THE CURE OF DISEASES > >=20 > >=20 > > MORTAL ills and the needs of the stomach rank next after the instinct of > > self-preservation among all the subjects which engage the attention > of the > > race.=20 > > If we do not go on living we cannot do the work we think there is to > do; if > > we remain hungry we will lose the power to work properly or to > enjoy, and at > > last come to the door of death. From bad or scanty food follows a > train of > > physical ills called generally disease.=20 > >=20 > > Disease reaches us also through too much food. So in every direction > these > > ills attack us; even when our feeding is correct and sufficient it > is found > > that we fall a prey because our Karma, settled by ourselves is some > previous > > life, ordains that we enter on this one handicapped by the > hereditary taint > > due to the wickedness or the errors of our fathers and mothers.=20 > >=20 > > And the records of science show that the taint in the blood or the > lymph may > > jump over many lives, attacking with virulence some generation > distant very > > far from the source.=20 > >=20 > > What wonder, then that the cure of disease is an all-absorbing > subject with > > every one! The Christian knows that it is decreed by Almighty God > that He > > will visit the sins of the fathers upon the children even to the > third and > > fourth generation, and the non-believer sees that by some power in > nature > > the penalty is felt even so far. > >=20 > > All of this has given to the schools of mental and so-called > "metaphysical" > > healing a strong pull on the fears, the feelings, the wishes, and > the bodies > > of those to whom they address themselves, and especially in the United > > States.=20 > > That there is more attention given to the subject in America seems > true to > > those who have been on the other side of the Atlantic and noticed > how small > > is the proportion of people there who know anything about the > subject. But > > in the United States in every town many can be found who know about > these > > schools and practice after their methods. Why it has more hold here > can be > > left to conjecture, as the point under consideration is why it has > any hold > > at all. It is something like patent medicine.=20 > >=20 > > Offer a cure to people for their many ills, and they will take it > up; offer > > it cheap, and they will use it; offer it as an easy method, and they > will > > rush for it under certain conditions.=20 > >=20 > > Metaphysical healing is easy for some because it declares, first, > that no > > money need be paid to doctors for medicine; second, that medical > fluids and > > drugs may be dispensed with; and third that it is easily learned and > > practiced. The difficulties that arise out of the necessities of > logic are > > not present for those who never studied it, but are somewhat potent with > > those who reason correctly; - but that is not usual for the general > run of > > minds.=20 > >=20 > > They see certain effects and accept the assumed cause as the right > one. But > > many persons will not even investigate the system, because they think it > > requires them to postulate the non-existence of that which they see > before > > their eyes.=20 > >=20 > > The statements quoted from the monthly Christian Science in March > PATH are > > bars in the way of such minds. If they could be induced to just try the > > method offered for cure, belief might result, for effects indeed often > > follow.=20 > >=20 > > But the popular mind is not in favor of "mind cure," and more > prominence is > > given in the daily papers to cases of death under it than to cures. > And very > > full reports always appear of a case such as one in March, where "faith > > curers," in order to restore life, went to praying over the dead > body of one > > of the members of a believing family. > >=20 > > During a recent tour over this country from the Atlantic to the > Pacific and > > back, I had the opportunity of meeting hundreds of disciples of these > > schools, and found in nearly all cases that they were not addicted > to logic > > but calmly ignored very plain propositions, satisfied that if cures were > > accomplished the cause claimed must be the right one, and almost without > > exception they denied the existence of evil or pain or suffering.=20 > >=20 > > There was a concurrence of testimony from all to show that the > dominant idea > > in their minds was the cure of their bodily ills and the continuance of > > health. The accent was not on the beauty of holiness or the value to > them > > and the community of a right moral system and right life, but on the > cure of > > their diseases.=20 > >=20 > > So the conclusion has been forced home that all these schools exist > because > > people desire to be well more than they desire to be good, although > they do > > not object to goodness if that shall bring wholeness. > >=20 > > And, indeed, one does not have to be good to gain the benefit of the > > teachings. It is enough to have confidence, to assert boldly that > this does > > not exist and that that has no power to hurt one.=20 > > I do not say the teachers of the "science" agree with me herein, but > only > > that whether you are good or bad the results will follow the firm > practice > > of the method enjoined, irrespective of the ideas of the teachers. > >=20 > > For in pure mind-cure as compared with its congener "Christian > Science," you > > do not have to believe in Jesus and the gospels, yet the same > results are > > claimed, for Jesus taught that whatever you prayed for with faith, > that you > > should have. > >=20 > > Scientific research discloses that the bodies of our race are > infected with > > taints that cause nearly all of our diseases, and school after school of > > medicine has tried and still tries to find the remedy that will > dislodge the > > foulness in the blood.=20 > >=20 > > This is scientific, since it seeks the real physical cause; metaphysical > > healing says it cures, but cannot prove that the cause is destroyed > and not > > merely palliated.=20 > >=20 > > That there is some room for doubt history shows us, for none will > deny that > > many pure thinking and acting pair have brought forth children who > displayed > > some taint derived from a distant ancestor. Evidently their pure > individual > > thoughts had no power over the great universal development of the matter > > used by those human bodies. > >=20 > > Turning now to medicine we find the Italian Count Mattei promulgating a > > system of cure by the homeopathic use of subtle vegetable essences > which may > > well give pause to those who would make universal the curing by faith or > > mind alone. Some of his liquids will instantly stop a violent pain, > restore > > sight, give back hearing, and dissipate abnormal growths. His > globules will > > make a drunken man sober, and, given to the nurse who suckles a > babe, will > > cure the child who takes the milk. The drunkard and the child do not > think > > about or have faith in the remedies, yet they cure. Is it not better to > > restore health by physical means and leave the high teachings of the > > healers, all taken from well know sources, for the benefit of our moral > > nature?=20 > >=20 > > And if Christian healers read these lines, should they not remember that > > when the prophet restored the widow's son he used physical means - > his own > > magnetism applied simultaneously to every member of the child's > body, and > > Jesus, when the woman who touched his garment was cured, lost a > portion of > > his vitality - not his thoughts - for he said "virtue" had gone out from > > him?=20 > > The Apostle also gave directions that if any were sick the others should > > assemble about the bed and anoint with oil, laying on their hands > meanwhile: > > simply physical therapeutics following a long line of ancient precedent > > dating back to Noah.=20 > >=20 > > Moses taught how to cure diseases and to disinfect places where > contagion > > lurked. It was not by using the high power of thought, but by processes > > deemed by him to be effectual, such as sprinkling blood of animals > > slaughtered in peculiar circumstances.=20 > >=20 > > Without declaring for or against his methods, it is very certain that he > > supposed by these means subtle forces of a physical nature would be > > liberated and brought to bear on the case in hand. > >=20 > > The mass of testimony through the ages is against healing physical > ills by > > the use of the higher forces in nature, and the reason, once well > known but > > later on forgotten, is the one given in the article of January, > 1892, - that > > diseases are gross manifestations showing themselves on their way > out of the > > nature so that one may be purified.=20 > >=20 > > To arrest them though thought ignorantly directed is to throw them > back into > > their cause and replant them in their mental plane. > >=20 > > This is the true ground of our objection to metaphysical healing > practices, > > which we distinguish from the assumptions and so-called philosophy > on which > > those methods are claimed to stand. For we distinctly urge that the > effects > > are not brought by any philosophical system whatever, but by the > practical > > though ignorant use of psycho-physiological processes. > >=20 > > William Q. Judge Path, September, 1892 > >=20 > >=20 > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >=20 > > I hope this may be of some help, > >=20 > >=20 > > Best wishes, > >=20 > > Dallas > >=20 > >=20 > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Vera Santos=20 > > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 3:30 PM > > To:=20 > > Subject: [bn-study] help needed > >=20 > > Your friend asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does > > THEOSOPHY offer anything. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! =96 What will yours do? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Dec 19 17:07:00 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 29752 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 01:06:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 01:06:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.69) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 01:06:59 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CgC0o-0004fV-GP for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 20:06:58 -0500 Message-ID: <41C625B6.4010107@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 20:07:02 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041220001902.31928.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041220001902.31928.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbaf5b104cbb918dbdce48a602a941bd6483553614b9f64653b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.69 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Errors in the primary literature X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Cass Silva wrote: > B: That is why I use the following rule in reading the primary > literature: If the Secret Doctrine differs from current scientific > knowledge, I look for the following: > > 1) Am I making assumptions which are not necessarily warranted? > > C: I think it is a good starting point, but "current scientific > knowledge" needs to be verified in the same way. As an example of > this, 20 years ago the corpus callosum was severed in severly > handicapped Epileptic patients.(To control their seizures) They cut > off the right and left brain connection by severing the Corpus > Callosum- the nerve system connecting left and right brain hemisphere > activity. They cut something like 2 billion nerve cells connecting > Left and Right brain hemispheres, leaving an abyss. Think it is also > called split brain surgery. What Science discovered was that after > the disconnection, the left hand took on a will or mind of its own, > becoming alien to the rest of the body. The right hand in fact didnt > know what the left hand was doing. One of the patients said that she > feared that her left hand would attack her beloved cats and her > greatest fear was that she wouldn't be able to stop it. Which means that one should differentiate between knowledge and pragmatism. In general, science takes off when mathematics can be applied to it. For example, it is one thing to say that use of a certain fertilizer will increase crop yield. But if you can say that use of that fertilizer will increase crop yield by precisely 83%, then you are on to something you can expand into new knowledge. > 2) Is there a way of interpreting the words to conform with current > scientific knowledge? > > C: I guess it is a matter of finding out whether the horse > (Theosophy)comes before the cart (current scientific knowledge), or > the cart comes before the horse? Truth is truth. But if advanced concepts are known without the basic underlying concepts, then mistakes can be made in the explanation. For example, someone might say that electricity flows through wires like water flows through pipes, but if you say that to someone who as no experience with electricity, they can easily get a very wrong idea. And if they explain it to a third party, then the third party can get a completely wrong idea. > Force Proper - (and) the cause or causes of motion? There are two > concepts rolled into one here. Force is Energy or Power. Motion is > Activity or Movement. Force causes Motion. and while it is "Force" > when it is moving matter. It is "something else" when it is not > moving matter (a something, which has the propensity to move matter > if it is willed into action). Force is a matter of definition. It is equal to (or proportional to, depending on the units you're using) to mass times acceleration. > C: Again, as a non scientist, I do not know whether 1899 Science was > using these terms to describe the then-current knowledge of physics, They were. This is Newtonian physics. Here's a good definition of potential energy (and was the definition back then, too): "Potential energy, expressed in science as U, is energy that is stored within an object, not in motion but capable of becoming active. When at rest, every object has rest mass potential energy; if the object is in a position to be affected by gravity and to fall, it has gravitational potential energy. Once an object is in motion, potential energy is converted to kinetic energy, which is the energy of motion. There are a number of kinds of potential energy. The pendulum of a clock, at the top of its swing, has gravitational potential energy which is converted to kinetic energy as it falls. Elastic potential energy is present in an object that can be stretched out and rebound, like an elastic. The potential energy is stored when an elastic is stretched, and converted to kinetic energy when the elastic is released. Other types of potential energy include chemical, which is related to the formation of chemical bonds and electrical, expressed as voltage." > C:The paradox is that neither sentences say anything in the real > world other than what is true is false and what is false is true. > Meaningless, they both negate each other. That's pretty much what I said. > In terms of humans only being able to think in terms of symbols. Are > you referring to Metaphors, Simile's, Analogies Parables?otherwise, I > am the exception to the rule because a symbol to me (e.g. crop > circle) is a piece of art and nothing more. Language is entirely composed of symbols. Do you think in language? Bart From jjhe@charter.net Sun Dec 19 17:17:58 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjhe@charter.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6499 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 01:17:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 01:17:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxsf20.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.28.220) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 01:17:57 -0000 Received: from mxip14.cluster1.charter.net (mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.144]) by mxsf20.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBK1Hu1V028146 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 20:17:56 -0500 Received: from 68-116-80-89.ca.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (68.116.80.89) by mxip14.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 19 Dec 2004 20:17:53 -0500 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.88,75,1102309200"; d="scan'217,208"; a="673690316:sNHT30150044" Message-ID: <41C6283F.30509@charter.net> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 17:17:51 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-GB; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041220010550.65893.qmail@web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com> X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.225.28.220 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed - Blood Transfusions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106201926 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are quite a lot of people who are doing exactly this. Your Dr. should have specific information for your area. --j Cass Silva wrote: >Hope you dont mind me jumping in. Why can't we recycle our own blood and use it when we get sick? Or even a family blood bank, where our blood goes to those immediate family members who are in need of it? It may be tainted with their Karma, but provided the karma is relatively "good" then the transference of negativity would be lessened? No? >Cass > > >Perry Coles wrote: > > >Hi Dallas, >I hope your well , >As with all things we as individuals need to try and use wise >discernment and certainly when it comes to ourselves our choices are >our own based on our knowledge and understanding of occult principles. > >But when it comes to children who lives could have been saved by a >blood transfusion, I simply find it outrageous that these children >have been allowed to die over a discission made by the parents because >of the blind following of dogma. > >I hope no theosophical student would ever follow any theosophical >statement blindly no matter who wrote it. > >Theosophical study is one as you know that takes lifetimes of work and >is not meant to be followed blindly but rather Self realised. >The information may or may not be correct we can never presume that it >is correct especially if a persons life other than our own hangs in >the balance. >What we choose for ourselves is another matter. > >Sorry to hear you've been in hospital hope alls ok! > >Regards > >Perry > > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" >wrote: > > >>Dec 19 2004 >> >>Dear Perry: >> >>What you say is correct and reflects the current medical view. >> >>They know nothing of Occultism. >> >>Preserving life in an old, decrepit and almost useless body is >> >> >ridiculous in > > >>the face of individual immortality and reincarnation -- which are >> >> >spoofed at > > >>by present day materialism in medicine and even law. >> >>Let me put it this way: THEOSOPHY teaches a number of things that >>materialism currently does not know anything about. That does not make >>THEOSOPHY either dogmatic or wrong. >> >>But it ought to encourage deeper research. >> >>The application of knowledge is always left to the one who provides >> >> >it. The > > >>motive for providing it is the desideratum of Karma. >> >>In THEOSOPHY ethics and morals are everything. Science does not yet >> >> >accept > > >>those. >> >>So it is up to us to use or not use. >> >>Dallas >> >>============================ >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@y...] >>Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 7:50 PM >>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >>Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed >> >> >> >>Hello Dallas, >>I was a little concerned over your comments on blood transfusions and >>organ donations. >>As an ex JW I know the needless and pointless suffering and waste of >>life that can result from these type of dogmatic beliefs. >> >>The ethical dimension to this is to me not just a matter of our >>attachment to the body and/or the occult effects of having someone >>else's blood in our veins but if we are able to extend our life though >>either a blood transfusion or organ donation are we not duty bound to >>use whatever means we can to either save someone else's >>(especially!!!) life or our own as long as it is not at the cost of >>another's? >> >>The occult consequences of these procedures while perhaps coming at a >>price may be far outweighed by the good we can do while in incarnation. >> >>Perry >> >> >>--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" >>wrote: >> >> >>>Dec 18 2004 >>> >>>Dear Vera: >>> >>>You asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does >>> >>> >THEOSOPHY > > >>>offer anything. >>> >>> >>>THEOSOPHY does not recommend either of these for the reason that the >>> >>> >>astral >> >> >>>body and Karma attached to those are always incompatible and >>> >>> >>dangerous to >> >> >>>some extent. >>> >>>Physical medicine and the science of modern healing look on the >>> >>> >>human body >> >> >>>as a fairly adaptable series if interchangeable parts - which is >>> >>> >>not so. >> >> >>>The Universe organizes through the astral body each person with >>> >>> >>their own >> >> >>>particular set of personalized and individual organs and substances. >>> >>> >>These >> >> >>>are always related to the individual's Karma. >>> >>>To some extent Medical science recognizes incompatibilities such as >>> >>> >>in blood >> >> >>>transfusions and the compatibility (by DNA testing) of proposed organ >>>transplants (heart, lungs, etc. ) and cures for cancer attacked >>> >>> >>parts of the >> >> >>>body. >>> >>>One of our problems is psychological: Most fear death. Those who >>> >>> >>have had >> >> >>>NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES ( NDE ) have lost such fear as they >>> >>> >realize that > > >>>they as SPIRITUAL SOULS survive physical death. Med. Sc. Tries to >>> >>> >>preserve >> >> >>>"life"-- at any cost, in the most shattered of physical bodies. >>> >>>THEOSOPHY states all bodies are replaceable under nature's rules and >>> >>> >>laws. >> >> >>>And while everyone grieves for the loss of a loved one, There is the >>>knowledge that under Karma we will all meet again, and love and >>> >>> >live and > > >>>work together, in the future. [ For example, we don't grieve when >>> >>> >>one goes >> >> >>>to sleep before another does? We know that we will wake up and >>> >>> >continue > > >>>life in a fresh day. It is so with the larger separation of >>> >>> >"death." ] > > >>>I attach here an article written generally on this. >>> >>> >>>THE CURE OF DISEASES >>> >>> >>>MORTAL ills and the needs of the stomach rank next after the >>> >>> >instinct of > > >>>self-preservation among all the subjects which engage the attention >>> >>> >>of the >> >> >>>race. >>>If we do not go on living we cannot do the work we think there is to >>> >>> >>do; if >> >> >>>we remain hungry we will lose the power to work properly or to >>> >>> >>enjoy, and at >> >> >>>last come to the door of death. From bad or scanty food follows a >>> >>> >>train of >> >> >>>physical ills called generally disease. >>> >>>Disease reaches us also through too much food. So in every direction >>> >>> >>these >> >> >>>ills attack us; even when our feeding is correct and sufficient it >>> >>> >>is found >> >> >>>that we fall a prey because our Karma, settled by ourselves is some >>> >>> >>previous >> >> >>>life, ordains that we enter on this one handicapped by the >>> >>> >>hereditary taint >> >> >>>due to the wickedness or the errors of our fathers and mothers. >>> >>>And the records of science show that the taint in the blood or the >>> >>> >>lymph may >> >> >>>jump over many lives, attacking with virulence some generation >>> >>> >>distant very >> >> >>>far from the source. >>> >>>What wonder, then that the cure of disease is an all-absorbing >>> >>> >>subject with >> >> >>>every one! The Christian knows that it is decreed by Almighty God >>> >>> >>that He >> >> >>>will visit the sins of the fathers upon the children even to the >>> >>> >>third and >> >> >>>fourth generation, and the non-believer sees that by some power in >>> >>> >>nature >> >> >>>the penalty is felt even so far. >>> >>>All of this has given to the schools of mental and so-called >>> >>> >>"metaphysical" >> >> >>>healing a strong pull on the fears, the feelings, the wishes, and >>> >>> >>the bodies >> >> >>>of those to whom they address themselves, and especially in the United >>>States. >>>That there is more attention given to the subject in America seems >>> >>> >>true to >> >> >>>those who have been on the other side of the Atlantic and noticed >>> >>> >>how small >> >> >>>is the proportion of people there who know anything about the >>> >>> >>subject. But >> >> >>>in the United States in every town many can be found who know about >>> >>> >>these >> >> >>>schools and practice after their methods. Why it has more hold here >>> >>> >>can be >> >> >>>left to conjecture, as the point under consideration is why it has >>> >>> >>any hold >> >> >>>at all. It is something like patent medicine. >>> >>>Offer a cure to people for their many ills, and they will take it >>> >>> >>up; offer >> >> >>>it cheap, and they will use it; offer it as an easy method, and they >>> >>> >>will >> >> >>>rush for it under certain conditions. >>> >>>Metaphysical healing is easy for some because it declares, first, >>> >>> >>that no >> >> >>>money need be paid to doctors for medicine; second, that medical >>> >>> >>fluids and >> >> >>>drugs may be dispensed with; and third that it is easily learned and >>>practiced. The difficulties that arise out of the necessities of >>> >>> >>logic are >> >> >>>not present for those who never studied it, but are somewhat >>> >>> >potent with > > >>>those who reason correctly; - but that is not usual for the general >>> >>> >>run of >> >> >>>minds. >>> >>>They see certain effects and accept the assumed cause as the right >>> >>> >>one. But >> >> >>>many persons will not even investigate the system, because they >>> >>> >think it > > >>>requires them to postulate the non-existence of that which they see >>> >>> >>before >> >> >>>their eyes. >>> >>>The statements quoted from the monthly Christian Science in March >>> >>> >>PATH are >> >> >>>bars in the way of such minds. If they could be induced to just >>> >>> >try the > > >>>method offered for cure, belief might result, for effects indeed often >>>follow. >>> >>>But the popular mind is not in favor of "mind cure," and more >>> >>> >>prominence is >> >> >>>given in the daily papers to cases of death under it than to cures. >>> >>> >>And very >> >> >>>full reports always appear of a case such as one in March, where >>> >>> >"faith > > >>>curers," in order to restore life, went to praying over the dead >>> >>> >>body of one >> >> >>>of the members of a believing family. >>> >>>During a recent tour over this country from the Atlantic to the >>> >>> >>Pacific and >> >> >>>back, I had the opportunity of meeting hundreds of disciples of these >>>schools, and found in nearly all cases that they were not addicted >>> >>> >>to logic >> >> >>>but calmly ignored very plain propositions, satisfied that if >>> >>> >cures were > > >>>accomplished the cause claimed must be the right one, and almost >>> >>> >without > > >>>exception they denied the existence of evil or pain or suffering. >>> >>>There was a concurrence of testimony from all to show that the >>> >>> >>dominant idea >> >> >>>in their minds was the cure of their bodily ills and the >>> >>> >continuance of > > >>>health. The accent was not on the beauty of holiness or the value to >>> >>> >>them >> >> >>>and the community of a right moral system and right life, but on the >>> >>> >>cure of >> >> >>>their diseases. >>> >>>So the conclusion has been forced home that all these schools exist >>> >>> >>because >> >> >>>people desire to be well more than they desire to be good, although >>> >>> >>they do >> >> >>>not object to goodness if that shall bring wholeness. >>> >>>And, indeed, one does not have to be good to gain the benefit of the >>>teachings. It is enough to have confidence, to assert boldly that >>> >>> >>this does >> >> >>>not exist and that that has no power to hurt one. >>>I do not say the teachers of the "science" agree with me herein, but >>> >>> >>only >> >> >>>that whether you are good or bad the results will follow the firm >>> >>> >>practice >> >> >>>of the method enjoined, irrespective of the ideas of the teachers. >>> >>>For in pure mind-cure as compared with its congener "Christian >>> >>> >>Science," you >> >> >>>do not have to believe in Jesus and the gospels, yet the same >>> >>> >>results are >> >> >>>claimed, for Jesus taught that whatever you prayed for with faith, >>> >>> >>that you >> >> >>>should have. >>> >>>Scientific research discloses that the bodies of our race are >>> >>> >>infected with >> >> >>>taints that cause nearly all of our diseases, and school after >>> >>> >school of > > >>>medicine has tried and still tries to find the remedy that will >>> >>> >>dislodge the >> >> >>>foulness in the blood. >>> >>>This is scientific, since it seeks the real physical cause; >>> >>> >metaphysical > > >>>healing says it cures, but cannot prove that the cause is destroyed >>> >>> >>and not >> >> >>>merely palliated. >>> >>>That there is some room for doubt history shows us, for none will >>> >>> >>deny that >> >> >>>many pure thinking and acting pair have brought forth children who >>> >>> >>displayed >> >> >>>some taint derived from a distant ancestor. Evidently their pure >>> >>> >>individual >> >> >>>thoughts had no power over the great universal development of the >>> >>> >matter > > >>>used by those human bodies. >>> >>>Turning now to medicine we find the Italian Count Mattei >>> >>> >promulgating a > > >>>system of cure by the homeopathic use of subtle vegetable essences >>> >>> >>which may >> >> >>>well give pause to those who would make universal the curing by >>> >>> >faith or > > >>>mind alone. Some of his liquids will instantly stop a violent pain, >>> >>> >>restore >> >> >>>sight, give back hearing, and dissipate abnormal growths. His >>> >>> >>globules will >> >> >>>make a drunken man sober, and, given to the nurse who suckles a >>> >>> >>babe, will >> >> >>>cure the child who takes the milk. The drunkard and the child do not >>> >>> >>think >> >> >>>about or have faith in the remedies, yet they cure. Is it not >>> >>> >better to > > >>>restore health by physical means and leave the high teachings of the >>>healers, all taken from well know sources, for the benefit of our >>> >>> >moral > > >>>nature? >>> >>>And if Christian healers read these lines, should they not >>> >>> >remember that > > >>>when the prophet restored the widow's son he used physical means - >>> >>> >>his own >> >> >>>magnetism applied simultaneously to every member of the child's >>> >>> >>body, and >> >> >>>Jesus, when the woman who touched his garment was cured, lost a >>> >>> >>portion of >> >> >>>his vitality - not his thoughts - for he said "virtue" had gone >>> >>> >out from > > >>>him? >>>The Apostle also gave directions that if any were sick the others >>> >>> >should > > >>>assemble about the bed and anoint with oil, laying on their hands >>> >>> >>meanwhile: >> >> >>>simply physical therapeutics following a long line of ancient >>> >>> >precedent > > >>>dating back to Noah. >>> >>>Moses taught how to cure diseases and to disinfect places where >>> >>> >>contagion >> >> >>>lurked. It was not by using the high power of thought, but by >>> >>> >processes > > >>>deemed by him to be effectual, such as sprinkling blood of animals >>>slaughtered in peculiar circumstances. >>> >>>Without declaring for or against his methods, it is very certain >>> >>> >that he > > >>>supposed by these means subtle forces of a physical nature would be >>>liberated and brought to bear on the case in hand. >>> >>>The mass of testimony through the ages is against healing physical >>> >>> >>ills by >> >> >>>the use of the higher forces in nature, and the reason, once well >>> >>> >>known but >> >> >>>later on forgotten, is the one given in the article of January, >>> >>> >>1892, - that >> >> >>>diseases are gross manifestations showing themselves on their way >>> >>> >>out of the >> >> >>>nature so that one may be purified. >>> >>>To arrest them though thought ignorantly directed is to throw them >>> >>> >>back into >> >> >>>their cause and replant them in their mental plane. >>> >>>This is the true ground of our objection to metaphysical healing >>> >>> >>practices, >> >> >>>which we distinguish from the assumptions and so-called philosophy >>> >>> >>on which >> >> >>>those methods are claimed to stand. For we distinctly urge that the >>> >>> >>effects >> >> >>>are not brought by any philosophical system whatever, but by the >>> >>> >>practical >> >> >>>though ignorant use of psycho-physiological processes. >>> >>>William Q. Judge Path, September, 1892 >>> >>> >>>======================================== >>> >>>I hope this may be of some help, >>> >>> >>>Best wishes, >>> >>>Dallas >>> >>> >>>=================== >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Vera Santos >>>Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 3:30 PM >>>To: >>>Subject: [bn-study] help needed >>> >>>Your friend asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - >>> >>> >does > > >>>THEOSOPHY offer anything. >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 19 17:40:48 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69130 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 01:40:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 01:40:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.74) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 01:40:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 99367 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Dec 2004 01:40:47 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=tIMdEoB+1vg380fnFA+steLFg9bWawsfF4jbuOyVr11jRbjTThw26v/MrkItfshwQsbzf/LcffQDI8piiYauXHIXDUx2Ysk69RIsIfFRoWkqQnGi5SiFoNcZlUl0UcG3HxsLVI5YUzdvZI43LHD6GfaDmNxfombc3GgFkCmzzr8= ; Message-ID: <20041220014047.99365.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 17:40:47 PST Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 17:40:47 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <41C625B6.4010107@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.74 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Errors in the primary literature X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bart Lidofsky wrote: Cass Silva wrote: > B: That is why I use the following rule in reading the primary > literature: If the Secret Doctrine differs from current scientific > knowledge, I look for the following: > > 1) Am I making assumptions which are not necessarily warranted? > > C: I think it is a good starting point, but "current scientific > knowledge" needs to be verified in the same way. As an example of > this, 20 years ago the corpus callosum was severed in severly > handicapped Epileptic patients.(To control their seizures) They cut > off the right and left brain connection by severing the Corpus > Callosum- the nerve system connecting left and right brain hemisphere > activity. They cut something like 2 billion nerve cells connecting > Left and Right brain hemispheres, leaving an abyss. Think it is also > called split brain surgery. What Science discovered was that after > the disconnection, the left hand took on a will or mind of its own, > becoming alien to the rest of the body. The right hand in fact didnt > know what the left hand was doing. One of the patients said that she > feared that her left hand would attack her beloved cats and her > greatest fear was that she wouldn't be able to stop it. Which means that one should differentiate between knowledge and pragmatism. In general, science takes off when mathematics can be applied to it. For example, it is one thing to say that use of a certain fertilizer will increase crop yield. But if you can say that use of that fertilizer will increase crop yield by precisely 83%, then you are on to something you can expand into new knowledge. ISN'T PRAGMATISM (COMMON SENSE) THE SAME THING AS KNOWLEDGE (ONE IS THE WORKING MAN'S THE OTHER IS THE ACADEMICS) ? SORRY, BUT I DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEAN BY "SCIENCE TAKES OFF WHEN MATHEMATICS CAN BE APPLIED. MATHEMATICS, IN THIS CASE, SHOWS THE INCREASED PROFIT MARGIN WHICH WOULD DRIVE THE SHARES UPWARD AT THE RISK OF PUBLIC HEALTH.IF YOU CAN INCREASE, BY 83%WITHOUT THE USE OF FERTILIZER THEN YOU WILL BE EXPANDING INTO NEW KNOWLEDGE. NO? > 2) Is there a way of interpreting the words to conform with current > scientific knowledge? > > C: I guess it is a matter of finding out whether the horse > (Theosophy)comes before the cart (current scientific knowledge), or > the cart comes before the horse? Truth is truth. But if advanced concepts are known without the basic underlying concepts, then mistakes can be made in the explanation. For example, someone might say that electricity flows through wires like water flows through pipes, but if you say that to someone who as no experience with electricity, they can easily get a very wrong idea. And if they explain it to a third party, then the third party can get a completely wrong idea. AGREE, BUT ELECTRICITY DOES FLOW THROUGH WIRES (MY LIGHT SWITCH) AND WATER FLOWS THROUGH PIPES (MY DUNNY). I SUPPOSE A NATIVE IN THE AMAZON WOULD HAVE NO CONCEPT OF ELECTRICITY OR PIPED WATER, BUT THEN THERE REALITY DOESN'T REQUIRE IT. IF THEY CAME TO TOWN, AND WENT BACK TO THE VILLAGE WITH THIS NEW KNOWLEDGE, THE TRIBE WOULD THINK HE HAD GONE LOCO AND WOULDNT BELIEVE HIM ANYWAY. > Force Proper - (and) the cause or causes of motion? There are two > concepts rolled into one here. Force is Energy or Power. Motion is > Activity or Movement. Force causes Motion. and while it is "Force" > when it is moving matter. It is "something else" when it is not > moving matter (a something, which has the propensity to move matter > if it is willed into action). Force is a matter of definition. It is equal to (or proportional to, depending on the units you're using) to mass times acceleration. > C: Again, as a non scientist, I do not know whether 1899 Science was > using these terms to describe the then-current knowledge of physics. I WAS RELATING THIS TO YOUR QUESTION OF WHETHER KOOTHOOMI WAS AHEAD OF HIMSELF IN THE LANGUAGE SCIENCE USES. They were. This is Newtonian physics. Here's a good definition of potential energy (and was the definition back then, too): "Potential energy, expressed in science as U, is energy that is stored within an object, not in motion but capable of becoming active. When at rest, every object has rest mass potential energy; if the object is in a position to be affected by gravity and to fall, it has gravitational potential energy. Once an object is in motion, potential energy is converted to kinetic energy, which is the energy of motion. THANK YOU, I DIDNT REALISE THAT 'SOMETHING ELSE" WAS KINETIC ENERGY. I HAVE LEARNT SOMETHING NEW. There are a number of kinds of potential energy. The pendulum of a clock, at the top of its swing, has gravitational potential energy which is converted to kinetic energy as it falls. Elastic potential energy is present in an object that can be stretched out and rebound, like an elastic. The potential energy is stored when an elastic is stretched, and converted to kinetic energy when the elastic is released. Other types of potential energy include chemical, which is related to the formation of chemical bonds and electrical, expressed as voltage." FOR STUPID ME, ENERGY OR POTENTIAL ENERGY IS THE SAME IN ALL APPLICATIONS. ENERGY WHETHER GRAVITATIONAL OR KINETIC IS ENERGY . I WAS READING LESSON 10 ON HPB STUDY GROUP. IT DISCUSSES COHESION, ADHESION, PRECIPITATION ETC. AND STATES THAT ELECTRICAL FORCE (ENERGY) IS NEGATIVE/POSITIVE, REPULSION/ATTRACTION. WEIGHT AND STABILITY DEPEND ON POLARITY AND WHEN THE POLARITY OF AN OBJECT IS ALTERED IN RESPECT TO THE EARTH (GRAVITY) IMMEDIATELY UNDERNEATH IT, THEN THE OBJECT MAY RISE OR BECOME A MOTION. > C:The paradox is that neither sentences say anything in the real > world other than what is true is false and what is false is true. > Meaningless, they both negate each other. That's pretty much what I said. > In terms of humans only being able to think in terms of symbols. Are > you referring to Metaphors, Simile's, Analogies Parables?otherwise, I > am the exception to the rule because a symbol to me (e.g. crop > circle) is a piece of art and nothing more. Language is entirely composed of symbols. Do you think in language? NEVER THOUGHT OF IT THAT WAY, BUT LETTERS ARE DEPENDANT UPON ONE ANOTHER TO PRODUCE A WORD, WHICH PRODUCES A SENTENCE, WHICH PRODUCES A THEORY, WHICH PRODUCES A PICTURE! WHAT DOES THIS SYMBOL MEAN ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, (A FULL STOP) or ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; (A SEMI-COLON) DIDNT JOYCE SAY THAT WE THINK IN STREAMS OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND ACCORDING TO HIM THAT MEANT LANGUAGE INTERPRETATION DOES NOT REQUIRE GRAMMATICAL POINTS AND PAUSES. YEAH RIGHT, TRY READING IT. ONLY HAVING FUN, NOT AT YOUR EXPENSE BUT WITH YOU. I THINK ON THE BASIC PREMISE, WE AGREE, DON'T TAKE ANYTHING AS FACT UNTIL YOU ARE ABLE TO PROVE IT FOR YOURSELF, UNTIL THAT TIME, ITS A WORKING HYPOTHESIS. Bart Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 19 17:42:45 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 10167 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 01:42:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 01:42:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.72) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 01:42:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 28024 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Dec 2004 01:42:41 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=DZebipmu4C7j+lc2F9G/hAoRWXbA4JmWrSqARGxd3kD6W5DrEeBdv8NATDhnDQ+GWOWXCETwDTdwH82FzkeZqpLUz/V7dn+ITjG1dcQhLuhYXyW0nC9+U3kkuVsXiraQRanzXy5rGZk1I84BJt8lNtS4Nj/JcXdMHGTV2qrHSYk= ; Message-ID: <20041220014241.28021.qmail@web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 17:42:41 PST Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 17:42:41 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <41C6283F.30509@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.72 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed - Blood Transfusions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the info. I don't think it has become a "reality" in Oz yet, although no-one here gets paid for donating blood, they give it voluntarily to help the sick. Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: There are quite a lot of people who are doing exactly this. Your Dr. should have specific information for your area. --j Cass Silva wrote: >Hope you dont mind me jumping in. Why can't we recycle our own blood and use it when we get sick? Or even a family blood bank, where our blood goes to those immediate family members who are in need of it? It may be tainted with their Karma, but provided the karma is relatively "good" then the transference of negativity would be lessened? No? >Cass > > >Perry Coles wrote: > > >Hi Dallas, >I hope your well , >As with all things we as individuals need to try and use wise >discernment and certainly when it comes to ourselves our choices are >our own based on our knowledge and understanding of occult principles. > >But when it comes to children who lives could have been saved by a >blood transfusion, I simply find it outrageous that these children >have been allowed to die over a discission made by the parents because >of the blind following of dogma. > >I hope no theosophical student would ever follow any theosophical >statement blindly no matter who wrote it. > >Theosophical study is one as you know that takes lifetimes of work and >is not meant to be followed blindly but rather Self realised. >The information may or may not be correct we can never presume that it >is correct especially if a persons life other than our own hangs in >the balance. >What we choose for ourselves is another matter. > >Sorry to hear you've been in hospital hope alls ok! > >Regards > >Perry > > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" >wrote: > > >>Dec 19 2004 >> >>Dear Perry: >> >>What you say is correct and reflects the current medical view. >> >>They know nothing of Occultism. >> >>Preserving life in an old, decrepit and almost useless body is >> >> >ridiculous in > > >>the face of individual immortality and reincarnation -- which are >> >> >spoofed at > > >>by present day materialism in medicine and even law. >> >>Let me put it this way: THEOSOPHY teaches a number of things that >>materialism currently does not know anything about. That does not make >>THEOSOPHY either dogmatic or wrong. >> >>But it ought to encourage deeper research. >> >>The application of knowledge is always left to the one who provides >> >> >it. The > > >>motive for providing it is the desideratum of Karma. >> >>In THEOSOPHY ethics and morals are everything. Science does not yet >> >> >accept > > >>those. >> >>So it is up to us to use or not use. >> >>Dallas >> >>============================ >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@y...] >>Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 7:50 PM >>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >>Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed >> >> >> >>Hello Dallas, >>I was a little concerned over your comments on blood transfusions and >>organ donations. >>As an ex JW I know the needless and pointless suffering and waste of >>life that can result from these type of dogmatic beliefs. >> >>The ethical dimension to this is to me not just a matter of our >>attachment to the body and/or the occult effects of having someone >>else's blood in our veins but if we are able to extend our life though >>either a blood transfusion or organ donation are we not duty bound to >>use whatever means we can to either save someone else's >>(especially!!!) life or our own as long as it is not at the cost of >>another's? >> >>The occult consequences of these procedures while perhaps coming at a >>price may be far outweighed by the good we can do while in incarnation. >> >>Perry >> >> >>--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" >>wrote: >> >> >>>Dec 18 2004 >>> >>>Dear Vera: >>> >>>You asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does >>> >>> >THEOSOPHY > > >>>offer anything. >>> >>> >>>THEOSOPHY does not recommend either of these for the reason that the >>> >>> >>astral >> >> >>>body and Karma attached to those are always incompatible and >>> >>> >>dangerous to >> >> >>>some extent. >>> >>>Physical medicine and the science of modern healing look on the >>> >>> >>human body >> >> >>>as a fairly adaptable series if interchangeable parts - which is >>> >>> >>not so. >> >> >>>The Universe organizes through the astral body each person with >>> >>> >>their own >> >> >>>particular set of personalized and individual organs and substances. >>> >>> >>These >> >> >>>are always related to the individual's Karma. >>> >>>To some extent Medical science recognizes incompatibilities such as >>> >>> >>in blood >> >> >>>transfusions and the compatibility (by DNA testing) of proposed organ >>>transplants (heart, lungs, etc. ) and cures for cancer attacked >>> >>> >>parts of the >> >> >>>body. >>> >>>One of our problems is psychological: Most fear death. Those who >>> >>> >>have had >> >> >>>NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES ( NDE ) have lost such fear as they >>> >>> >realize that > > >>>they as SPIRITUAL SOULS survive physical death. Med. Sc. Tries to >>> >>> >>preserve >> >> >>>"life"-- at any cost, in the most shattered of physical bodies. >>> >>>THEOSOPHY states all bodies are replaceable under nature's rules and >>> >>> >>laws. >> >> >>>And while everyone grieves for the loss of a loved one, There is the >>>knowledge that under Karma we will all meet again, and love and >>> >>> >live and > > >>>work together, in the future. [ For example, we don't grieve when >>> >>> >>one goes >> >> >>>to sleep before another does? We know that we will wake up and >>> >>> >continue > > >>>life in a fresh day. It is so with the larger separation of >>> >>> >"death." ] > > >>>I attach here an article written generally on this. >>> >>> >>>THE CURE OF DISEASES >>> >>> >>>MORTAL ills and the needs of the stomach rank next after the >>> >>> >instinct of > > >>>self-preservation among all the subjects which engage the attention >>> >>> >>of the >> >> >>>race. >>>If we do not go on living we cannot do the work we think there is to >>> >>> >>do; if >> >> >>>we remain hungry we will lose the power to work properly or to >>> >>> >>enjoy, and at >> >> >>>last come to the door of death. From bad or scanty food follows a >>> >>> >>train of >> >> >>>physical ills called generally disease. >>> >>>Disease reaches us also through too much food. So in every direction >>> >>> >>these >> >> >>>ills attack us; even when our feeding is correct and sufficient it >>> >>> >>is found >> >> >>>that we fall a prey because our Karma, settled by ourselves is some >>> >>> >>previous >> >> >>>life, ordains that we enter on this one handicapped by the >>> >>> >>hereditary taint >> >> >>>due to the wickedness or the errors of our fathers and mothers. >>> >>>And the records of science show that the taint in the blood or the >>> >>> >>lymph may >> >> >>>jump over many lives, attacking with virulence some generation >>> >>> >>distant very >> >> >>>far from the source. >>> >>>What wonder, then that the cure of disease is an all-absorbing >>> >>> >>subject with >> >> >>>every one! The Christian knows that it is decreed by Almighty God >>> >>> >>that He >> >> >>>will visit the sins of the fathers upon the children even to the >>> >>> >>third and >> >> >>>fourth generation, and the non-believer sees that by some power in >>> >>> >>nature >> >> >>>the penalty is felt even so far. >>> >>>All of this has given to the schools of mental and so-called >>> >>> >>"metaphysical" >> >> >>>healing a strong pull on the fears, the feelings, the wishes, and >>> >>> >>the bodies >> >> >>>of those to whom they address themselves, and especially in the United >>>States. >>>That there is more attention given to the subject in America seems >>> >>> >>true to >> >> >>>those who have been on the other side of the Atlantic and noticed >>> >>> >>how small >> >> >>>is the proportion of people there who know anything about the >>> >>> >>subject. But >> >> >>>in the United States in every town many can be found who know about >>> >>> >>these >> >> >>>schools and practice after their methods. Why it has more hold here >>> >>> >>can be >> >> >>>left to conjecture, as the point under consideration is why it has >>> >>> >>any hold >> >> >>>at all. It is something like patent medicine. >>> >>>Offer a cure to people for their many ills, and they will take it >>> >>> >>up; offer >> >> >>>it cheap, and they will use it; offer it as an easy method, and they >>> >>> >>will >> >> >>>rush for it under certain conditions. >>> >>>Metaphysical healing is easy for some because it declares, first, >>> >>> >>that no >> >> >>>money need be paid to doctors for medicine; second, that medical >>> >>> >>fluids and >> >> >>>drugs may be dispensed with; and third that it is easily learned and >>>practiced. The difficulties that arise out of the necessities of >>> >>> >>logic are >> >> >>>not present for those who never studied it, but are somewhat >>> >>> >potent with > > >>>those who reason correctly; - but that is not usual for the general >>> >>> >>run of >> >> >>>minds. >>> >>>They see certain effects and accept the assumed cause as the right >>> >>> >>one. But >> >> >>>many persons will not even investigate the system, because they >>> >>> >think it > > >>>requires them to postulate the non-existence of that which they see >>> >>> >>before >> >> >>>their eyes. >>> >>>The statements quoted from the monthly Christian Science in March >>> >>> >>PATH are >> >> >>>bars in the way of such minds. If they could be induced to just >>> >>> >try the > > >>>method offered for cure, belief might result, for effects indeed often >>>follow. >>> >>>But the popular mind is not in favor of "mind cure," and more >>> >>> >>prominence is >> >> >>>given in the daily papers to cases of death under it than to cures. >>> >>> >>And very >> >> >>>full reports always appear of a case such as one in March, where >>> >>> >"faith > > >>>curers," in order to restore life, went to praying over the dead >>> >>> >>body of one >> >> >>>of the members of a believing family. >>> >>>During a recent tour over this country from the Atlantic to the >>> >>> >>Pacific and >> >> >>>back, I had the opportunity of meeting hundreds of disciples of these >>>schools, and found in nearly all cases that they were not addicted >>> >>> >>to logic >> >> >>>but calmly ignored very plain propositions, satisfied that if >>> >>> >cures were > > >>>accomplished the cause claimed must be the right one, and almost >>> >>> >without > > >>>exception they denied the existence of evil or pain or suffering. >>> >>>There was a concurrence of testimony from all to show that the >>> >>> >>dominant idea >> >> >>>in their minds was the cure of their bodily ills and the >>> >>> >continuance of > > >>>health. The accent was not on the beauty of holiness or the value to >>> >>> >>them >> >> >>>and the community of a right moral system and right life, but on the >>> >>> >>cure of >> >> >>>their diseases. >>> >>>So the conclusion has been forced home that all these schools exist >>> >>> >>because >> >> >>>people desire to be well more than they desire to be good, although >>> >>> >>they do >> >> >>>not object to goodness if that shall bring wholeness. >>> >>>And, indeed, one does not have to be good to gain the benefit of the >>>teachings. It is enough to have confidence, to assert boldly that >>> >>> >>this does >> >> >>>not exist and that that has no power to hurt one. >>>I do not say the teachers of the "science" agree with me herein, but >>> >>> >>only >> >> >>>that whether you are good or bad the results will follow the firm >>> >>> >>practice >> >> >>>of the method enjoined, irrespective of the ideas of the teachers. >>> >>>For in pure mind-cure as compared with its congener "Christian >>> >>> >>Science," you >> >> >>>do not have to believe in Jesus and the gospels, yet the same >>> >>> >>results are >> >> >>>claimed, for Jesus taught that whatever you prayed for with faith, >>> >>> >>that you >> >> >>>should have. >>> >>>Scientific research discloses that the bodies of our race are >>> >>> >>infected with >> >> >>>taints that cause nearly all of our diseases, and school after >>> >>> >school of > > >>>medicine has tried and still tries to find the remedy that will >>> >>> >>dislodge the >> >> >>>foulness in the blood. >>> >>>This is scientific, since it seeks the real physical cause; >>> >>> >metaphysical > > >>>healing says it cures, but cannot prove that the cause is destroyed >>> >>> >>and not >> >> >>>merely palliated. >>> >>>That there is some room for doubt history shows us, for none will >>> >>> >>deny that >> >> >>>many pure thinking and acting pair have brought forth children who >>> >>> >>displayed >> >> >>>some taint derived from a distant ancestor. Evidently their pure >>> >>> >>individual >> >> >>>thoughts had no power over the great universal development of the >>> >>> >matter > > >>>used by those human bodies. >>> >>>Turning now to medicine we find the Italian Count Mattei >>> >>> >promulgating a > > >>>system of cure by the homeopathic use of subtle vegetable essences >>> >>> >>which may >> >> >>>well give pause to those who would make universal the curing by >>> >>> >faith or > > >>>mind alone. Some of his liquids will instantly stop a violent pain, >>> >>> >>restore >> >> >>>sight, give back hearing, and dissipate abnormal growths. His >>> >>> >>globules will >> >> >>>make a drunken man sober, and, given to the nurse who suckles a >>> >>> >>babe, will >> >> >>>cure the child who takes the milk. The drunkard and the child do not >>> >>> >>think >> >> >>>about or have faith in the remedies, yet they cure. Is it not >>> >>> >better to > > >>>restore health by physical means and leave the high teachings of the >>>healers, all taken from well know sources, for the benefit of our >>> >>> >moral > > >>>nature? >>> >>>And if Christian healers read these lines, should they not >>> >>> >remember that > > >>>when the prophet restored the widow's son he used physical means - >>> >>> >>his own >> >> >>>magnetism applied simultaneously to every member of the child's >>> >>> >>body, and >> >> >>>Jesus, when the woman who touched his garment was cured, lost a >>> >>> >>portion of >> >> >>>his vitality - not his thoughts - for he said "virtue" had gone >>> >>> >out from > > >>>him? >>>The Apostle also gave directions that if any were sick the others >>> >>> >should > > >>>assemble about the bed and anoint with oil, laying on their hands >>> >>> >>meanwhile: >> >> >>>simply physical therapeutics following a long line of ancient >>> >>> >precedent > > >>>dating back to Noah. >>> >>>Moses taught how to cure diseases and to disinfect places where >>> >>> >>contagion >> >> >>>lurked. It was not by using the high power of thought, but by >>> >>> >processes > > >>>deemed by him to be effectual, such as sprinkling blood of animals >>>slaughtered in peculiar circumstances. >>> >>>Without declaring for or against his methods, it is very certain >>> >>> >that he > > >>>supposed by these means subtle forces of a physical nature would be >>>liberated and brought to bear on the case in hand. >>> >>>The mass of testimony through the ages is against healing physical >>> >>> >>ills by >> >> >>>the use of the higher forces in nature, and the reason, once well >>> >>> >>known but >> >> >>>later on forgotten, is the one given in the article of January, >>> >>> >>1892, - that >> >> >>>diseases are gross manifestations showing themselves on their way >>> >>> >>out of the >> >> >>>nature so that one may be purified. >>> >>>To arrest them though thought ignorantly directed is to throw them >>> >>> >>back into >> >> >>>their cause and replant them in their mental plane. >>> >>>This is the true ground of our objection to metaphysical healing >>> >>> >>practices, >> >> >>>which we distinguish from the assumptions and so-called philosophy >>> >>> >>on which >> >> >>>those methods are claimed to stand. For we distinctly urge that the >>> >>> >>effects >> >> >>>are not brought by any philosophical system whatever, but by the >>> >>> >>practical >> >> >>>though ignorant use of psycho-physiological processes. >>> >>>William Q. Judge Path, September, 1892 >>> >>> >>>======================================== >>> >>>I hope this may be of some help, >>> >>> >>>Best wishes, >>> >>>Dallas >>> >>> >>>=================== >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Vera Santos >>>Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 3:30 PM >>>To: >>>Subject: [bn-study] help needed >>> >>>Your friend asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - >>> >>> >does > > >>>THEOSOPHY offer anything. >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Dec 19 18:03:19 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 36653 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 02:03:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 02:03:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.69) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 02:03:17 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CgCtI-0000mA-Tw for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 21:03:17 -0500 Message-ID: <41C632E8.5010003@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 21:03:20 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041220014047.99365.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041220014047.99365.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbaf5b104cbb918dbdc1ef83389be4f1955666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.69 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Errors in the primary literature X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Cass Silva wrote: > ISN'T PRAGMATISM (COMMON SENSE) THE SAME THING AS KNOWLEDGE (ONE IS > THE WORKING MAN'S THE OTHER IS THE ACADEMICS) ? SORRY, BUT I DONT > UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEAN BY "SCIENCE TAKES OFF WHEN MATHEMATICS CAN > BE APPLIED. MATHEMATICS, IN THIS CASE, SHOWS THE INCREASED PROFIT > MARGIN WHICH WOULD DRIVE THE SHARES UPWARD AT THE RISK OF PUBLIC > HEALTH.IF YOU CAN INCREASE, BY 83%WITHOUT THE USE OF FERTILIZER THEN > YOU WILL BE EXPANDING INTO NEW KNOWLEDGE. NO? Well, you totally garbled up what I said. The key, in science, is that when predictions are general, they are of limited use. When predictions are precise, then further knowledge can be gained by application of the principles involved. > AGREE, BUT ELECTRICITY DOES FLOW THROUGH WIRES (MY LIGHT SWITCH) AND > WATER FLOWS THROUGH PIPES (MY DUNNY). I SUPPOSE A NATIVE IN THE > AMAZON WOULD HAVE NO CONCEPT OF ELECTRICITY OR PIPED WATER, BUT THEN > THERE REALITY DOESN'T REQUIRE IT. IF THEY CAME TO TOWN, AND WENT > BACK TO THE VILLAGE WITH THIS NEW KNOWLEDGE, THE TRIBE WOULD THINK HE > HAD GONE LOCO AND WOULDNT BELIEVE HIM ANYWAY. Exactly. Consider how H. P. Blavatsky was treated. Bart From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 19 18:29:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22757 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 02:29:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 02:29:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.74) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 02:29:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 8076 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Dec 2004 02:29:06 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=i9y2wbdwHabWt6Db1EFz4DX7NJt81rcTPJBGJEPNecJ9tLXUTF2ERNxBqwNhyy9oCwhcDH4TzCOl/85G6dNjKttsRX0aJLHlm0Tcf+rPcy7WIBoDuHDTUNOwN/2DbU49f1BgilAZRiXXO3yJs7wxh2I790VqynNBBmtRTucJs6I= ; Message-ID: <20041220022906.8074.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 18:29:06 PST Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 18:29:06 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <41C632E8.5010003@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.74 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Errors in the primary literature X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bart Lidofsky wrote: Cass Silva wrote: > ISN'T PRAGMATISM (COMMON SENSE) THE SAME THING AS KNOWLEDGE (ONE IS > THE WORKING MAN'S THE OTHER IS THE ACADEMICS) ? SORRY, BUT I DONT > UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEAN BY "SCIENCE TAKES OFF WHEN MATHEMATICS CAN > BE APPLIED. MATHEMATICS, IN THIS CASE, SHOWS THE INCREASED PROFIT > MARGIN WHICH WOULD DRIVE THE SHARES UPWARD AT THE RISK OF PUBLIC > HEALTH.IF YOU CAN INCREASE, BY 83%WITHOUT THE USE OF FERTILIZER THEN > YOU WILL BE EXPANDING INTO NEW KNOWLEDGE. NO? Well, you totally garbled up what I said. The key, in science, is that when predictions are general, they are of limited use. When predictions are precise, then further knowledge can be gained by application of the principles involved. HPB said, figuratively, these are the precise facts. Examine and test them if you want to gain further knowledge of the universe of which you are a part. OK, WHEN HAVE SCIENTIFIC PREDICTIONS BEEN PRECISE? The Big Bang, Quantum Mechanics cannot reconcile with Relativity Mechanics, but all new theories are based upon trying to reconcile the two. But I take your point, when predictions (guesses) are precise, it is the only starting point. > AGREE, BUT ELECTRICITY DOES FLOW THROUGH WIRES (MY LIGHT SWITCH) AND > WATER FLOWS THROUGH PIPES (MY DUNNY). I SUPPOSE A NATIVE IN THE > AMAZON WOULD HAVE NO CONCEPT OF ELECTRICITY OR PIPED WATER, BUT THEN > THERE REALITY DOESN'T REQUIRE IT. IF THEY CAME TO TOWN, AND WENT > BACK TO THE VILLAGE WITH THIS NEW KNOWLEDGE, THE TRIBE WOULD THINK HE > HAD GONE LOCO AND WOULDNT BELIEVE HIM ANYWAY. Exactly. Consider how H. P. Blavatsky was treated. Yep I know, maybe it is up to "others" to prove that she was not the village idiot. Cass Bart Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JB789@hotmail.com Mon Dec 20 02:29:08 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: JB789@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40532 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 10:29:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 10:29:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.39) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 10:29:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 10:28:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.172] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 10:28:47 -0000 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:28:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 12824 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.39 From: "new7892001" X-Originating-IP: 130.226.107.5 Subject: A view on Kundalini X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=10560058 X-Yahoo-Profile: new7892001 Hi, the following text might be of interest. For further discussion on Krishnamurti's teachings, please visit: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/J-Krishnamurti_andLife/ Regards, j. ---------------------------------------------------------- J. Krishnamurti on Kundalini ---------------------------------------------------------- The other question is what Pupulji raised about an endless journey. You want to discuss kundalini? P: Yes, sir. K: Sir, first of all, if you really want to discuss, have a dialogue about kundalini, would you forget everything you have heard about it? Would you? We are entering into a subject which is very serious. Are you willing to forget everything you have heard about it, what your gurus have told you about it, or your attempts to awaken it? Can you start with a completely empty state? Then you have to enquire, really not knowing anything about kundalini. You know what is happening now in America, in Europe. Kundalini centres have been opened by people who say they have had the experience of the awakening of kundalini. Scientists are interested in it today. They feel that by doing certain forms of exercise, breathing, they will awaken the kundalini. It has all become a moneymaking concern, and it is being given to people who are terribly mischievous. Q: We just want to know whether there is an energy that can wipe out conditioning. K: So long as self-centred activity exists, you cannot touch it. That is why I object to any discussion on kundalini or whatever that energy is, because we have not done the spade work. We don't lead a life of correctness and we want to add something new to it and so carry on our mischief. VA: Even after awakening kundalini, self-centred activity continues. K: I question whether the kundalini is awakened. I don't know what you mean by it. VA: Sir, we really want to understand this, because it is an actuality sometimes. P: Do you know of an energy when self-centred activity ends? We assume that this is the source of this endless energy. It may not be. K: Are you saying the ending of this movement from the centre to the circumference and from the circumference to the centre, the end of that =85 P: Momentary ending of it =85 K: No, the ending of it, the complete ending of it =96 is the release of that energy which is limitless? P: I don't say that. K: I am saying that. P: Which is a very different thing to me saying it. K: Can we put kundalini energy in its right place? A number of people have the experience of what they call kundalini, which I question. I question whether it is an actual reality or some kind of physiological activity which is attributed to kundalini. You live an immoral life in the sense of a life of vanity, sex, etc. and then you say that your kundalini is awakened. But your daily life, which is a self-centred life, continues. P: Sir, if we are going to examine it, let us see how it operates in one. The awakening of kundalini is linked to certain psychic centres located at certain physical parts of the body. That is what is said. The first question I would like to ask is whether that is so? Has the release of this energy, which as no end, anything to do with the psychic centres in the physical parts of the body? A: Before we go into that, sir, is it not essential to enquire whether the person who acquires that energy is incapable of doing harm. K: No, sir. Do be careful. How can we say somebody is incapable of doing harm? They say many Indian gurus have done tremendous harm misleading people. A: That is what I say, sir. I feel that unless the person's heart is cleansed of hate, and his thirst to do harm is completely transmuted, unless that has happened, then this energy can do nothing but more mischief. K: Achyutji, what Pupulji is asking about is the standard acceptance of the power of this energy going through various centres and the releasing of energy and so on. A: I say, sir, that before we ask that question, there is in the Indian tradition a word which I think is very valuable. That word is `adhikar'. Adhikar means that the person must cleanse himself sufficiently before he can pose this question to himself. It is a question of cleansing. K: Are you saying that unless there is a stoppage of this movement from the centre to the circumference and from the circumference to the centre, that Pupulji's question is not valid? A: I think so. I will use another word, the Buddhist word is `sheela'. It is really the same. The word `adhikar' used by the Hindus and the word `sheela' used by the Buddhist really mean the same thing. P: I take it that when one asks the question, there is a depth of self-knowing with which one asks. It is not possible to investigate the self which also releases energy, if one's life has not gone through a degree of inner balance, otherwise what K says has no meaning. When one listens to Krishnaji, one receives at the depth to which one has exposed oneself, and therefore I think it is right to ask the question. Why is this question more dangerous than any other question? Why is it more dangerous than inquiring into what is thought, what is meditation, what is this, what is that? To the mind which will comprehend, it will comprehend this and that. To the mind which will not comprehend, it will comprehend neither. To the mind which wants to misuse, it will misuse anything. K: Unless your life, your daily life is a completely nonself-centred way of living, the other cannot possibly come in. VA: There is arising of energy =96 there is delight at first, then fear. S: We would like to know why that energy creates fear. VA: Fear comes later. One experiences death and everything vanishes. You are alive again and you are surprised that you are alive again. You find the world again, and your thoughts, and your possessions and desires and the whole world slowly come back. K: Would you call that, sir, the awakening of kundalini? VA: I don't know, sir. K: But why do you label it as the awakening of kundalini? VA: For a few days after that, for a period of a month, the whole life changes. Sex vanishes, desires vanish. K: Yes, sir, I understand. But you do come back to it again. VA: One comes back to it because one doesn't understand. K: That is what I am saying, sir. When there is a coming back to something, I question whether you have had that energy. P: Why has this question awakened so many ripples? Most people go through a great deal of psychic experiences in the process of self- knowing. One also understands, at least one has understood because one has listened to Krishnaji, that all psychic experience when they arise, have to be put aside. K: Is that understood? Psychic experiences must be totally put aside. A: We put them aside, not only give no importance to them. VA: Some new passages do get opened in the body, and the energy keeps rising in those passages whenever it is required. K: Sir, why do you call it something extraordinary? Why do we attribute something extraordinary to this? I am just suggesting, it may be that you have become very sensitive. That is all. Very acutely sensitive. VA: I have more energy. K: Sensitivity has more energy. But why do you call it extraordinary, kundalini this, that or the other? P: The real problem is to what extent is your life totally changed. I mean the only meaning of awakening is if there is a totally new way of looking, a new way of living, a new way of relationship. =85 K: I live a life of torture, misery, confusion. That is my basic feeling and can that end? There is no motive. =85 Can that whole process end? Only then can I answer the other questions, which have tremendous significance. P: What is the nature of the soil of the human mind which has to be cultivated to receive the other? You tell me that is also a wrong question. You say I am in conflict, I am suffering and I see that a life of conflict and suffering has no end. K: That is all. If it cannot end, then the other enquiry and investigation, and the wanting to awaken the other in order to wipe this out is a wrong process. P: Obviously. K: It is asking an outside agency to come and clear up your house. I say in the process of clearing the house, this house, there are a great many things that are going to happen. You will have clairvoyance, the so-called `siddhis' and all the rest of it. They will all happen. But if you are caught in them, you cannot proceed further. If you are not caught in them, the heavens are open to you. You are asking, Pupul, is there a soil that has to be prepared, not in order to receive that, but the soil has to be prepared? Prepare, work at that, clean the house so completely that there isn't the shadow of escape. Then, we can ask, what is the state we are all talking about. If you are doing that, preparing, working at the ending of sorrow, not letting go, if you are working at that and you come along and say is there something known as kundalini power, then I am willing to listen. A: Sir, the reason why I objected is that in the Hatha yoga Pradipika text we make a statement that this investigation into kundalini is in order to strengthen you in your search. K: For God's sake, Achyutji, are you working at clearing up the house? A: Definitely. K: Now, what is the question? Is there an energy which is non- mechanistic, which is endless, renewing itself? I say there is. Most definitely. But it is not what you call kundalini. The body must be sensitive. If you are working, clearing up the house, the body becomes very sensitive. The body then has its own intelligence, not the intelligence which the mind dictates to the body. Therefore, the body becomes extraordinarily sensitive, not sensitive to its desires, or sensitive to wanting something, but it becomes sensitive per se. Right? Then, what happens? If you really want me to go into it, I'll do so. The people who speak of the awakening of kundalini, I question. They have not worked at the other, but say they have awakened kundalini. Therefore, I question their ability, their truth. I am not antagonistic, but I am questioning it. A man who eats meat, wants publicity, wants this and that and says his kundalini is awakened, I say it is nonsense. There must be a cleansing of this house all the time. Then Pupul says, `Can we talk about an energy which I feel must exist?', not theoretically but of which she has had a glimpse, the feeling of it, an energy that is endless; and K comes along and says `yes', there is such a thing. There is an energy which is renewing itself all the time, which is not mechanistic, which has no cause, which has no beginning and therefore no ending. It is an eternal movement. I say there is. What value has it to the listener? I say `yes' and you listen to me. I say to myself what value has that to you? Will you go off into that and not clear up the house? P: That means, sir, that to the person who enquires, it is the cultivation of the soil which is the ending of suffering, which is essential. K: The only job. Nothing else. It is the most sacred thing, therefore you can't invite it. And you are all inviting it. Clearing up the house demands tremendous discipline, not the discipline of control, suppression and obedience, you follow? In itself it demands tremendous attention. When you give your complete attention, then you will see a totally different kind of thing taking place, an energy in which there is no repetition, an energy that isn't coming and going. It is not as though I have it one day and a month later I don't have it. It implies, keeping the mind completely empty. Can you do that? VA: For a while. K: No, no. I have asked: Can the mind keep itself empty? Then, there is that energy. You don't even have to ask for it. When there is space, it is empty and therefore full of energy. So, in cleansing, in ending the things of the house, of sorrow, can the mind be completely empty, without any motive, without any desire? When you are working at this, keeping the house clean, other things come naturally. It isn't you who are preparing the soil for that. That is meditation. P: And the nature of that is the transformation of the human mind. K: You see as Apa Saheb was saying, we are programmed to centuries of conditioning. When there is the stopping of it, there is an ending of it. If you pull the plug out of the computer, it can't function any more. Now, the question is: Can that centre, which is selfishness, end? And not keep on and on? Can that centre end? When that ends, there is no movement of time. That is all. When the movement of the mind from the centre to the periphery stops, time stops. When there is no movement of selfishness, there is a totally different kind of movement." J. Krishnamurti Exploration into Insight, Bombay, 18th januari, 1977, p. 83- 92 (CD- Rom code EP79EI-07) From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 03:35:30 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 9300 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 11:35:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 11:35:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.50) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 11:35:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n21.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 11:35:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.254] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 11:35:29 -0000 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 11:35:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41C5F518.6040102@charter.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2460 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.50 From: "prmoliveira" X-Originating-IP: 150.101.201.135 Subject: Re: Communicating Theosophy to Others. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617 X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins =20 wrote: > You [Dallas] wrote: >=20 > >I have an intense dislike for "buzz" words like "post modern,=20 modernist" > >etc... which signify nothing at all. That is all to me, pseudo- intellectual. > >I try to deal with facts and truths, and care little for opinions=20 and "buzz > >words."=20 > After knowing you for thirty years, I am not at all surprised by=20 your=20 > "intense dislike" concerning the use of current philosophical=20 > terminology, and empathize with your frustrations of living in a=20 world=20 > where words and culture are in a constant state of change. I have=20 also=20 > lived long enough to have witnessed several such abrupt changes in=20 our=20 > society, and you have witnessed even more of them. But this is the=20 > nature of the world which we live. We can curse the changes and/or=20 hide=20 > from them, or we can try to keep up. Just an aside, if I may: HPB may have introduced a "post-modern" concept in her works when she=20 used the word *nastika*. One of the references to it is this: "The=20 Secret Doctrine teaches no Atheism, except in the Hindu sense of the=20 word nastika, or the rejection of idols, including every=20 anthropomorphic god. In this sense every Occultist is a Nastika."=20 (SD I, Summing Up) The literal meaning of the word is: "atheistical, infidel; an atheist=20 or unbeliever; disbelief, atheism. When combined with the word=20 *Karmanam* it means "denying the consequence of works". The Online Etimology Dictionary (thanks, Bart) says that=20 postmodernism is defined by Terry Eagleton as "the contemporary=20 movement of thought which rejects ... the possibility of objective=20 knowledge" and is therefore "skeptical of truth, unity, and=20 progress."=20 Another view comes from the Wikipedia: "Jean-Fran=E7ois Lyotard=20 famously described postmodernism as an "incredulity toward=20 metanarratives" (Lyotard, 1984). Postmodernism attacks the notions of=20 monolithic universals and encourages fractured, fluid and multiple=20 perspectives and is marked by an increasing importance in the ideas=20 from the Sociology of knowledge." In other words, the postmodern mind rejects belief, monolithic=20 ideologies, knowledge born of arrogance, questions everything, is=20 skeptical of any form of fundamentalism and maintains that no=20 dicourse can ever fully represent reality. Yeap, HPB was probably a postmodern sphynx! Pedro PS - Best wishes for your complete recovery, Dallas. From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Dec 20 06:09:09 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72993 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 14:09:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 14:09:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.69) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 14:09:08 -0000 Received: from [209.179.128.11] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CgODh-00084u-67; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 09:09:07 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To; b=mJ9/o5lWQFUFJ9knNJ6atrTbJLOPOYk1hcXosMQBM8EWQkJ3SdZi0o6F/gMbZZlB; To: Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 06:09:00 -0800 Message-ID: <001601c4e69d$77c04600$5080b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79d398d1a382838f44733bc2fc21b98c07350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.69 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.128.11 Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: Communicating Theosophy to Others. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 20 2004 Thanks Pedro: Great research. Apparently we invent new words and definitions for old phenomena as we go along. Well are we any the wiser with these new "port-manteau" words? Or have we hidden the baby deeper under the wraps? That is one reason why I like to get to basics, clear and simple. We ought to insist on keeping things where the average man and woman can understand and follow along mentally.. Thanks and best wishes of 2005 Dallas =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: prmoliveira=20 Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 3:35 AM To:=20 Subject: Re: Communicating Theosophy to Others. --- Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: You [Dallas] wrote: =20 I have an intense dislike for "buzz" words like "post modern,=20 modernist" etc... which signify nothing at all. That is all to me, pseudo- intellectual.=20 I try to deal with facts and truths, and care little for opinions=20 and "buzz words." ....... Just an aside, if I may: HPB may have introduced a "post-modern" concept in her works when she=20 used the word *nastika*. One of the references to it is this: "The=20 Secret Doctrine teaches no Atheism, except in the Hindu sense of the=20 word nastika, or the rejection of idols, including every=20 anthropomorphic god. In this sense every Occultist is a Nastika."=20 (SD I, Summing Up) The literal meaning of the word is: "atheistical, infidel; an atheist=20 or unbeliever; disbelief, atheism. When combined with the word=20 *Karmanam* it means "denying the consequence of works". The Online Etimology Dictionary (thanks, Bart) says that=20 postmodernism is defined by Terry Eagleton as "the contemporary=20 movement of thought which rejects ... the possibility of objective=20 knowledge" and is therefore "skeptical of truth, unity, and=20 progress."=20 Another view comes from the Wikipedia: "Jean-Fran=E7ois Lyotard=20 famously described postmodernism as an "incredulity toward=20 metanarratives" (Lyotard, 1984). Postmodernism attacks the notions of=20 monolithic universals and encourages fractured, fluid and multiple=20 perspectives and is marked by an increasing importance in the ideas=20 from the Sociology of knowledge." In other words, the postmodern mind rejects belief, monolithic=20 ideologies, knowledge born of arrogance, questions everything, is=20 skeptical of any form of fundamentalism and maintains that no=20 dicourse can ever fully represent reality. Yeap, HPB was probably a postmodern sphynx! Pedro From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Dec 20 06:09:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20864 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 14:09:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 14:09:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.69) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 14:09:35 -0000 Received: from [209.179.128.11] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CgODp-00084u-O6; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 09:09:24 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To; b=crf+fAWAXwEJLsOzmvEA3SiPhkzRGKyaorNA65Zj08se8pURYfQx1w+7cvCLi6vw; To: Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 06:09:00 -0800 Message-ID: <001b01c4e69d$7c7b5d10$5080b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec795e193ac91610fcd401b5da6f7edd94a9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.69 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.128.11 Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and reincarnation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec. 20 2004 Re: Blood Transfusions, Organ donations, etc. Transfusions and reincarnation Dear Perry: The application of technical medical processes is one thing. The motive behind the application is another. The processes of asepsis in hospitals and clinics are well known but not always applied meticulously.=20=20 But who knows the effect of the moral contagions inherent in another's body as a result of their life and karma? If and when this (a portion of another's Karma) is injected or introduced into another living body, a portion of the Karma comes along with the physical blood or organ There ar= e enough cases on record of the subsequent feelings and problems that have been found to be consequent on the use of these processes.=20 THEOSOPHY deals with laws and explanations and observations impartially. = =20 It shows the astral structures and the "pranic-life currents" underlie the physical organs, blood and other structures. It says they impart their own imprint in terms of life-memories and strengths (or weaknesses) wherever they go. The physical blood or organ conveys them. They are also conveyed by massage, and acupressure for instance, and above all by the inner and powerful WILL of the doctor, nurse massager or practitioner.=20 The blood or organs of another person, no matter how closely related, are different from ours.=20=20 THEOSOPHY does not recommend such exchanges. I know this seems to violate current rules and attitudes. Next question is WHY ? How we make application is another thing altogether, as the moral aspect is involved and Karma is formed there, based on motive always. Lets ask another question. If THEOSOPHY is right in this, what effect has such an exchange on the karma of the two Egos involved -- for their future in their present life, and in a future life upon reincarnation ? Is this intimate relationship continued and desirable? What will be the karma of those who facilitate or participate in these processes? Is that not to be thought of?=20 I know this all sound vague and fuzzy, but that is because the matter is ye= t to be seized and made a part of investigation. Who believes in reincarnation anyway? The Chinese systems of the meridians in the body, whereon is built their system of acupuncture and acupressure; the Indian Ayurvedic lore is well aware of bodily meridians and interlinks, and practice here in the West of several kinds including Chiropractic is also built on this knowledge. Who has made a systematic investigation of these systems and ancient knowledge?=20 No one "likes" fire to burn, or water to "drown." However, if misused they do that impartially and without malice. None of us are yet able to determine the future of another, in this or a future body.. If however we can use and apply the best techniques to save life we do that with the motive of assistance. As for myself, (not a child) I have given strict instructions that no blood transfusions are to be made in case I need them medically, nor are any "heroic measures" to keep the body "alive" are to be used in case of coma o= r other determination of the passing away of consciousness. I do this in advance of any situation where I might be unable to assure medical or legal authorities that it is my desire to let my body die if it cannot heal and revive itself . But I am an adult, and, taking full responsibility, I can decide for myself what I will accept or not as treatment for my body. It is quite ridiculous to fear death. We don't fear sleeping, do we? And who is to say that our consciousness will return on awakening to the same body? In case of continued wakefulness under forced sleep deprivation it has been demonstrated that eventually these cause sleep or death.=20 But to decide for a child -- that is a matter for parents to consider as they have that duty, under Karma. I know this is an "open door." But again THEOSOPHY does not dogmatize for specific cases It says in effect: Use your common sense. Discover the Principles that are operative in all cases= , and apply them.=20=20 In these days, to maintain a sure and fearless belief in reincarnation is rare. But then, who has yet seen or discussed the matter with the REAL INNE= R SPIRIT of any man or woman so far ? [ Or even in meditation with one's ow= n Inner SELF ? Only THEOSOPHY speaks of this, and indicates ways in which it may be done.]=20 No, our sole knowledge is that the INNER SPIRIT, our Real Self, requires specifically a continuity in a single body; and its condition, before or after the death of that present body, is quite unknown and unprovable so far. Current beliefs state that the body and the indwelling SPIRIT are the same thing. But are they?=20 No, THEOSOPHY does not dogmatize, but it does offer the rules and facts of life, as it know it too be. Dal Dallas =20 -----Original Message----- From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:47 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Hi Dallas, I hope your well , As with all things we as individuals need to try and use wise discernment and certainly when it comes to ourselves our choices are our own based on our knowledge and understanding of occult principles. But when it comes to children who lives could have been saved by a blood transfusion, I simply find it outrageous that these children have been allowed to die over a discission made by the parents because of the blind following of dogma. I hope no theosophical student would ever follow any theosophical statement blindly no matter who wrote it. Theosophical study is one as you know that takes lifetimes of work and is not meant to be followed blindly but rather Self realised. The information may or may not be correct we can never presume that it is correct especially if a persons life other than our own hangs in the balance. What we choose for ourselves is another matter. Sorry to hear you've been in hospital hope alls ok! Regards Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: > Dec 19 2004 >=20 > Dear Perry: >=20 > What you say is correct and reflects the current medical view. >=20 > They know nothing of Occultism. >=20 > Preserving life in an old, decrepit and almost useless body is ridiculous in > the face of individual immortality and reincarnation -- which are spoofed at > by present day materialism in medicine and even law. >=20 > Let me put it this way: THEOSOPHY teaches a number of things that > materialism currently does not know anything about. That does not make > THEOSOPHY either dogmatic or wrong.=20=20 >=20 > But it ought to encourage deeper research. >=20 > The application of knowledge is always left to the one who provides it. The > motive for providing it is the desideratum of Karma. >=20 > In THEOSOPHY ethics and morals are everything. Science does not yet accept > those.=20 >=20 > So it is up to us to use or not use. >=20 > Dallas >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D >=20=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@y...]=20 > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 7:50 PM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed >=20 >=20 >=20 > Hello Dallas, > I was a little concerned over your comments on blood transfusions and > organ donations. > As an ex JW I know the needless and pointless suffering and waste of > life that can result from these type of dogmatic beliefs. >=20 > The ethical dimension to this is to me not just a matter of our > attachment to the body and/or the occult effects of having someone > else's blood in our veins but if we are able to extend our life though > either a blood transfusion or organ donation are we not duty bound to > use whatever means we can to either save someone else's > (especially!!!) life or our own as long as it is not at the cost of > another's? >=20 > The occult consequences of these procedures while perhaps coming at a > price may be far outweighed by the good we can do while in incarnation. >=20 > Perry >=20 >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" > wrote: > > Dec 18 2004 > >=20 > > Dear Vera: > >=20 > > You asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does THEOSOPHY > > offer anything. > >=20 > >=20 > > THEOSOPHY does not recommend either of these for the reason that the > astral > > body and Karma attached to those are always incompatible and > dangerous to > > some extent.=20 > >=20 > > Physical medicine and the science of modern healing look on the > human body > > as a fairly adaptable series if interchangeable parts - which is > not so. > >=20 > > The Universe organizes through the astral body each person with > their own > > particular set of personalized and individual organs and substances. > These > > are always related to the individual's Karma.=20 > >=20 > > To some extent Medical science recognizes incompatibilities such as > in blood > > transfusions and the compatibility (by DNA testing) of proposed organ > > transplants (heart, lungs, etc. ) and cures for cancer attacked > parts of the > > body.=20 > >=20 > > One of our problems is psychological: Most fear death. Those who > have had > > NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES ( NDE ) have lost such fear as they realize that > > they as SPIRITUAL SOULS survive physical death. Med. Sc. Tries to > preserve > > "life"-- at any cost, in the most shattered of physical bodies. > >=20 > > THEOSOPHY states all bodies are replaceable under nature's rules and > laws. > > And while everyone grieves for the loss of a loved one, There is the > > knowledge that under Karma we will all meet again, and love and live and > > work together, in the future. [ For example, we don't grieve when > one goes > > to sleep before another does? We know that we will wake up and continue > > life in a fresh day. It is so with the larger separation of "death." ] > >=20 > > I attach here an article written generally on this.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > THE CURE OF DISEASES > >=20 > >=20 > > MORTAL ills and the needs of the stomach rank next after the instinct of > > self-preservation among all the subjects which engage the attention > of the > > race.=20 > > If we do not go on living we cannot do the work we think there is to > do; if > > we remain hungry we will lose the power to work properly or to > enjoy, and at > > last come to the door of death. From bad or scanty food follows a > train of > > physical ills called generally disease.=20 > >=20 > > Disease reaches us also through too much food. So in every direction > these > > ills attack us; even when our feeding is correct and sufficient it > is found > > that we fall a prey because our Karma, settled by ourselves is some > previous > > life, ordains that we enter on this one handicapped by the > hereditary taint > > due to the wickedness or the errors of our fathers and mothers.=20 > >=20 > > And the records of science show that the taint in the blood or the > lymph may > > jump over many lives, attacking with virulence some generation > distant very > > far from the source.=20 > >=20 > > What wonder, then that the cure of disease is an all-absorbing > subject with > > every one! The Christian knows that it is decreed by Almighty God > that He > > will visit the sins of the fathers upon the children even to the > third and > > fourth generation, and the non-believer sees that by some power in > nature > > the penalty is felt even so far. > >=20 > > All of this has given to the schools of mental and so-called > "metaphysical" > > healing a strong pull on the fears, the feelings, the wishes, and > the bodies > > of those to whom they address themselves, and especially in the United > > States.=20 > > That there is more attention given to the subject in America seems > true to > > those who have been on the other side of the Atlantic and noticed > how small > > is the proportion of people there who know anything about the > subject. But > > in the United States in every town many can be found who know about > these > > schools and practice after their methods. Why it has more hold here > can be > > left to conjecture, as the point under consideration is why it has > any hold > > at all. It is something like patent medicine.=20 > >=20 > > Offer a cure to people for their many ills, and they will take it > up; offer > > it cheap, and they will use it; offer it as an easy method, and they > will > > rush for it under certain conditions.=20 > >=20 > > Metaphysical healing is easy for some because it declares, first, > that no > > money need be paid to doctors for medicine; second, that medical > fluids and > > drugs may be dispensed with; and third that it is easily learned and > > practiced. The difficulties that arise out of the necessities of > logic are > > not present for those who never studied it, but are somewhat potent with > > those who reason correctly; - but that is not usual for the general > run of > > minds.=20 > >=20 > > They see certain effects and accept the assumed cause as the right > one. But > > many persons will not even investigate the system, because they think it > > requires them to postulate the non-existence of that which they see > before > > their eyes.=20 > >=20 > > The statements quoted from the monthly Christian Science in March > PATH are > > bars in the way of such minds. If they could be induced to just try the > > method offered for cure, belief might result, for effects indeed often > > follow.=20 > >=20 > > But the popular mind is not in favor of "mind cure," and more > prominence is > > given in the daily papers to cases of death under it than to cures. > And very > > full reports always appear of a case such as one in March, where "faith > > curers," in order to restore life, went to praying over the dead > body of one > > of the members of a believing family. > >=20 > > During a recent tour over this country from the Atlantic to the > Pacific and > > back, I had the opportunity of meeting hundreds of disciples of these > > schools, and found in nearly all cases that they were not addicted > to logic > > but calmly ignored very plain propositions, satisfied that if cures were > > accomplished the cause claimed must be the right one, and almost without > > exception they denied the existence of evil or pain or suffering.=20 > >=20 > > There was a concurrence of testimony from all to show that the > dominant idea > > in their minds was the cure of their bodily ills and the continuance of > > health. The accent was not on the beauty of holiness or the value to > them > > and the community of a right moral system and right life, but on the > cure of > > their diseases.=20 > >=20 > > So the conclusion has been forced home that all these schools exist > because > > people desire to be well more than they desire to be good, although > they do > > not object to goodness if that shall bring wholeness. > >=20 > > And, indeed, one does not have to be good to gain the benefit of the > > teachings. It is enough to have confidence, to assert boldly that > this does > > not exist and that that has no power to hurt one.=20 > > I do not say the teachers of the "science" agree with me herein, but > only > > that whether you are good or bad the results will follow the firm > practice > > of the method enjoined, irrespective of the ideas of the teachers. > >=20 > > For in pure mind-cure as compared with its congener "Christian > Science," you > > do not have to believe in Jesus and the gospels, yet the same > results are > > claimed, for Jesus taught that whatever you prayed for with faith, > that you > > should have. > >=20 > > Scientific research discloses that the bodies of our race are > infected with > > taints that cause nearly all of our diseases, and school after school of > > medicine has tried and still tries to find the remedy that will > dislodge the > > foulness in the blood.=20 > >=20 > > This is scientific, since it seeks the real physical cause; metaphysical > > healing says it cures, but cannot prove that the cause is destroyed > and not > > merely palliated.=20 > >=20 > > That there is some room for doubt history shows us, for none will > deny that > > many pure thinking and acting pair have brought forth children who > displayed > > some taint derived from a distant ancestor. Evidently their pure > individual > > thoughts had no power over the great universal development of the matter > > used by those human bodies. > >=20 > > Turning now to medicine we find the Italian Count Mattei promulgating a > > system of cure by the homeopathic use of subtle vegetable essences > which may > > well give pause to those who would make universal the curing by faith or > > mind alone. Some of his liquids will instantly stop a violent pain, > restore > > sight, give back hearing, and dissipate abnormal growths. His > globules will > > make a drunken man sober, and, given to the nurse who suckles a > babe, will > > cure the child who takes the milk. The drunkard and the child do not > think > > about or have faith in the remedies, yet they cure. Is it not better to > > restore health by physical means and leave the high teachings of the > > healers, all taken from well know sources, for the benefit of our moral > > nature?=20 > >=20 > > And if Christian healers read these lines, should they not remember that > > when the prophet restored the widow's son he used physical means - > his own > > magnetism applied simultaneously to every member of the child's > body, and > > Jesus, when the woman who touched his garment was cured, lost a > portion of > > his vitality - not his thoughts - for he said "virtue" had gone out from > > him?=20 > > The Apostle also gave directions that if any were sick the others should > > assemble about the bed and anoint with oil, laying on their hands > meanwhile: > > simply physical therapeutics following a long line of ancient precedent > > dating back to Noah.=20 > >=20 > > Moses taught how to cure diseases and to disinfect places where > contagion > > lurked. It was not by using the high power of thought, but by processes > > deemed by him to be effectual, such as sprinkling blood of animals > > slaughtered in peculiar circumstances.=20 > >=20 > > Without declaring for or against his methods, it is very certain that he > > supposed by these means subtle forces of a physical nature would be > > liberated and brought to bear on the case in hand. > >=20 > > The mass of testimony through the ages is against healing physical > ills by > > the use of the higher forces in nature, and the reason, once well > known but > > later on forgotten, is the one given in the article of January, > 1892, - that > > diseases are gross manifestations showing themselves on their way > out of the > > nature so that one may be purified.=20 > >=20 > > To arrest them though thought ignorantly directed is to throw them > back into > > their cause and replant them in their mental plane. > >=20 > > This is the true ground of our objection to metaphysical healing > practices, > > which we distinguish from the assumptions and so-called philosophy > on which > > those methods are claimed to stand. For we distinctly urge that the > effects > > are not brought by any philosophical system whatever, but by the > practical > > though ignorant use of psycho-physiological processes. > >=20 > > William Q. Judge Path, September, 1892 > >=20 > >=20 > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >=20 > > I hope this may be of some help, > >=20 > >=20 > > Best wishes, > >=20 > > Dallas > >=20 > >=20 > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Vera Santos=20 > > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 3:30 PM > > To:=20 > > Subject: [bn-study] help needed > >=20 > > Your friend asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does > > THEOSOPHY offer anything. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links =20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20 From arielaretziel@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 07:35:18 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: arielaretziel@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73152 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 15:35:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 15:35:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yahoogroups.com) (80.202.254.8) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 15:35:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 16:36:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 80.202.254.8 From: arielaretziel@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Re: product X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=167898668 X-Yahoo-Profile: arielaretziel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your document is attached. ++++ Attachment: No Virus found ++++ F-Secure AntiVirus - www.f-secure.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 07:59:28 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69759 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 15:59:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 15:59:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web41527.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.134) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 15:59:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 81408 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Dec 2004 15:57:19 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=VmG67ge0mw6o0YWFkv6bl8ZXFSS/N3d+bey6CoL1cy/GxfEkgYgsqL8HnH4DzbqOTKMfMVlYP0N8WW67CO9bXCllO41gFX7Z/sZu74nFcEt3ld43ratkLE6mqt1SrSV0jAcr/ffVk/MwAFsLmAqelXQbELwB/D1k0M1abIMrWs0= ; Message-ID: <20041220155719.81406.qmail@web41527.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [148.177.1.213] by web41527.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 07:57:19 PST Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 07:57:19 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <001801c4e506$e9318e40$0792b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.134 From: Towers1209 Reply-To: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Theos-World FW: 90# on the phone --> an email hoax X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=205723283 X-Yahoo-Profile: traveller1209 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How could the "smart" people in this group fall for such an email hoax? :-) Please, check http://www.hoax-slayer.com/nine-zero-hash-hoax.html. Please be warned that if any time in the future, anyone of us receive an email that encourages us to forward an imminent message to everyone you know, rest assured that it is most probably a hoax. So, check the Internet for "hoax " A public service from a friend... Loreto "W.Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: Dec. 17, 2004 A WARNING Re: your PHONE number Passed on to be of assistance Dallas ========================================== -----Original Message----- From: Gerda Winkler [mailto:gerdawinkler@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 3:20 PM To: many unnamed recipients Subject: FW: 90# on the phone >From: "Alan Winkler" >To: gerdawinkler@hotmail.com >Subject: 90# on the phone >Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:48:00 +0000 > > PASS ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW > >I received a telephone call last evening from an individual >identifying himself as an AT&T Service technician who was conducting a >test on telephone lines. He stated that to complete the test I should >touch nine(9), zero(0), the pound sign (#), and then hang up. > > Luckily, I was suspicious and refused. > > Upon contacting the telephone company, I was informed that by >pushing 90#, you give the requesting individual full access to your >telephone line, which enables them to place long distance calls billed >to your home phone number. > > I was further informed that this scam has been originating from many >local jails/prisons. I have also verified this information with UCB >Telecom,Pacific Bell, MCI, Bell Atlantic and GTE. Please beware. > > DO NOT press 90# for ANYONE. > > The GTE Security Department requested that I share this information >with EVERYONE I KNOW. > > PLEASE pass this on to everyone YOU know. > > If you have mailing lists and/or newsletters from organizations you >are connected with, I encourage you to pass on this information to them. > > After checking with Verizon they said it was true, so do not dial >(9),zero(0), the pound sign # and hang up for anyone. > > PLEASE HIT THAT FORWARD BUTTON AND PASS THIS ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW > Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 09:00:32 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 46081 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 17:00:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 17:00:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.36) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 17:00:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 17:00:17 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.128] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 17:00:17 -0000 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 17:00:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41C4FB3C.4030207@charter.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6626 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.36 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Re: Jerry Hejka-Ekins: "Pat Deveney has a fascinating article on A.L. Rawson...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Dear Jerry, Thanks for your futher comments below. Let me once again quote your original words: > >>>"I think you will be very interested in the > >>>October [2004] issue of Theosophical History, which > >>>should be going into the mail in the next > >>>week or so. Pat Deveney has a fascinating > >>>article on A.L. Rawson, whose testimony has > >>>been used to prove some things about HPB, > >>>while other statements of his have been > >>>ignored when they were --let us > >>>say--inconvient to the party-line > >>>version of history. With giving away > >>>the article, just let me say that Mr. > >>>Deveney has dug us some real surprises > >>>which am sure that certain Theosophical > >>>apologists who pose as > >>>historians will have to explain away." Now let me quote your latest words about the Deveney comments of yours: "....it was a rhetorical statement written in context to the subject of communicating Theosophy to a post modern generation. In that context, it is self explanatory and very tongue in cheek, as it reflects upon modernist verses post modernist attitudes. In context, the statement does not mean, nor was it intended to mean that Theosophical apologists have for some reason an obligation or compulsion to put forth an explanation--which, of course, is pure nonsense." I simply do not understand what you are trying to tell us by calling your initial statement "a rhetorical statement written in context...In that context, it is self explanatory and very tongue in cheek...." I have no idea exactly what you are trying to tell me. All I was trying to ask you with my first posting was in a general context, in your opinion are there "surprises" in Deveney's article that pro-Blavatsky students (Theosophical apologists???] might have a problem with and therefore might try to discount by explaining them away? And if there are such "surprises" I was wondering what specific items of information you were thinking of when you labelled them "surprises". What is my opinion of Deveney's article? Well, certainly Mr. Deveney has done a great deal of research into Rawson's life and claims. I would think Deveney may be writing a full length biography of Rawson considering the depth of Deveney's research. Daniel --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > Dan, > As I said before, it was a rhetorical statement written in context to > the subject of communicating Theosophy to a post modern generation. In > that context, it is self explanatory and very tongue in cheek, as it > reflects upon modernist verses post modernist attitudes. In context, the > statement does not mean, nor was it intended to mean that Theosophical > apologists have for some reason an obligation or compulsion to put forth > an explanation--which, of course, is pure nonsense. There is an old > saying--"Context is everything" but getting a feel for the tone helps > too. > > Now, to my question, which I ask you again: What are you thoughts on > Deveney's article? > --j > > BTW, why are you writing identical messages to me on two different > discussion boards? This is silly. > j > > > > Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: > > >Jerry, > > > >Thanks for your reply below but I am still > >puzzled by your initial statement. > > > >Therefore I ask you again: > > > >Could you share with us your > >thoughts as to why you > >felt these "surprises" would > >have to be explained away > >by the Theosophical apologists? > > > >Daniel > >http://hpb.cc > > > > > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins > >wrote: > > > > > >>Dan, > >> > >>First of all, I did not have you in mind when I used the phrase > >>"Theosophical apologists." > >> > >>Second, the comment was in the context of a discussion I was having > >> > >> > >with > > > > > >>Dallas concerning modernist verses post modernist approaches to > >>communicating theosophy, and therefore the comment was rhetorical. > >> > >>Regarding the article in TH, I was indeed surprised by some of the > >> > >> > >data > > > > > >>Deveney found in his research, and I believe that anyone interested > >> > >> > >in > > > > > >>Theosophical history will also be surprised. Were you not > >> > >> > >surprised? > > > > > >> If you were already aware of everything that Deveney had > >> > >> > >discovered > > > > > >>concerning Rawson, then you are way ahead of me, and ahead of > >> > >> > >Deveney > > > > > >>too. In any case, I would be interested in reading your comments > >>concerning the article. > >>--j > >> > >> > >> > >>Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Sometime ago, Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > >>> > >>>"I think you will be very interested in the > >>>October [2004] issue of Theosophical History, which > >>>should be going into the mail in the next > >>>week or so. Pat Deveney has a fascinating > >>>article on A.L. Rawson, whose testimony has > >>>been used to prove some things about HPB, > >>>while other statements of his have been > >>>ignored when they were --let us > >>>say--inconvient to the party-line > >>>version of history. With giving away > >>>the article, just let me say that Mr. > >>>Deveney has dug us some real surprises > >>>which am sure that certain Theosophical > >>>apologists who pose as > >>>historians will have to explain away." > >>> > >>>I have now read the Deveney article and though > >>> > >>>the article may contain "some real surprises", I > >>> > >>>am somewhat puzzled why these "surprises" will > >>> > >>>have to be explained away by "certain Theosophical > >>> > >>>apologists who pose as historians." > >>> > >>>It is unclear to me why these apologists would > >>> > >>>have to explain anything away as given in > >>> > >>>the Deveney article. > >>> > >>>I am also puzzled why Jerry apparently > >>> > >>>felt the need to label certain unnamed > >>> > >>>individuals as "Theosophical > >>> > >>>apologists who pose as historians." > >>> > >>>I think we can safely assume that > >>> > >>>Jerry does not consider himself > >>> > >>>as one of these Theosophical > >>> > >>>apologists. > >>> > >>>Maybe Jerry could share with > >>> > >>>us his thoughts as to why he > >>> > >>>felt these "surprises" would > >>> > >>>have to be explained away > >>> > >>>by the Theosophical apologists. > >>> > >>>Daniel > >>>http://hpb.cc > >>> > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 20 10:47:24 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97135 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 18:47:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 18:47:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 18:47:11 -0000 Received: from versus (200-102-018-030.fnsce7001.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.102.18.30]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1DF583A41 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 16:47:08 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <006601c4e6c4$017f1260$0301010a@versus> To: References: <001b01c4e69d$7c7b5d10$5080b3d1@DALLAS> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 16:44:57 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: assassin, Transfusions, muyrder's hand and reincarnation _ Krishtar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friend Dal Hi everybody. Glad to hear from you again and glad that you overcame the illness. This e-list is not the same without your messages... I cannot comment this email entirely now but I wanted to say that i once wa= tched a trash movie in which the hand of an assassin being transplanted int= o an innocent man and then caused him acting so strange... and I cannot rem= ember if he became or not a murderer... I also know that some people need a psychiatrist after a liver or heart tra= nsplant. Is it psychological influence ( living with an alien part in your body ) or= occult laws in action? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= ++ I once had an argument with one of those Jeovah=B4s Witnesses sect ( Watcht= ower International I gess) about their non- permission of blood-transfusion= due to certain interpretations on the H. Bible. At that time I found that POV so unhuman and selfish that it made me mad. Dallas, doesn=B4t the karma attached to a body that has no life anymore fin= ish when the physical ego is released to the other spheres and won=B4t the = earth decompose the organs anyway too? And once the organs are left they are transformed in organic matter, non-or= ganized again. So the karma from the body parts are also transferred to the worms and bact= erias, since everything is alive. Won=B4t the useful organs be more useful to someone who has the necessity o= f transplant than to the decompositors? Just views... ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= +++++ Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: W.Dallas TenBroeck=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 12:09 PM Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and rein= carnation Dec. 20 2004 Re: Blood Transfusions, Organ donations, etc. Transfusions and reincarnation Dear Perry: The application of technical medical processes is one thing. The motive behind the application is another. The processes of asepsis in hospitals and clinics are well known but not always applied meticulously.=20=20 But who knows the effect of the moral contagions inherent in another's bo= dy as a result of their life and karma? If and when this (a portion of another's Karma) is injected or introduced into another living body, a portion of the Karma comes along with the physical blood or organ There = are enough cases on record of the subsequent feelings and problems that have been found to be consequent on the use of these processes.=20 THEOSOPHY deals with laws and explanations and observations impartially. = =20 It shows the astral structures and the "pranic-life currents" underlie t= he physical organs, blood and other structures. It says they impart their ow= n imprint in terms of life-memories and strengths (or weaknesses) wherever they go. The physical blood or organ conveys them. They are also conveye= d by massage, and acupressure for instance, and above all by the inner and powerful WILL of the doctor, nurse massager or practitioner.=20 The blood or organs of another person, no matter how closely related, are different from ours.=20=20 THEOSOPHY does not recommend such exchanges. I know this seems to violat= e current rules and attitudes. Next question is WHY ? How we make application is another thing altogether, as the moral aspect = is involved and Karma is formed there, based on motive always. Lets ask another question. If THEOSOPHY is right in this, what effect ha= s such an exchange on the karma of the two Egos involved -- for their futur= e in their present life, and in a future life upon reincarnation ? Is this intimate relationship continued and desirable? What will be the karma of those who facilitate or participate in these processes? Is that not to b= e thought of?=20 I know this all sound vague and fuzzy, but that is because the matter is = yet to be seized and made a part of investigation. Who believes in reincarnation anyway? The Chinese systems of the meridians in the body, whereon is built their system of acupuncture and acupressure; the Indian Ayurvedic lore is well aware of bodily meridians and interlinks, and practice here in the West of several kinds including Chiropractic is also built on this knowledge. Who has made a systematic investigation of thes= e systems and ancient knowledge?=20 No one "likes" fire to burn, or water to "drown." However, if misused th= ey do that impartially and without malice. None of us are yet able to determine the future of another, in this or a future body.. If however we can use and apply the best techniques to sav= e life we do that with the motive of assistance. As for myself, (not a child) I have given strict instructions that no blo= od transfusions are to be made in case I need them medically, nor are any "heroic measures" to keep the body "alive" are to be used in case of coma= or other determination of the passing away of consciousness. I do this in advance of any situation where I might be unable to assure medical or leg= al authorities that it is my desire to let my body die if it cannot heal and revive itself . But I am an adult, and, taking full responsibility, I c= an decide for myself what I will accept or not as treatment for my body. It is quite ridiculous to fear death. We don't fear sleeping, do we? An= d who is to say that our consciousness will return on awakening to the same body? In case of continued wakefulness under forced sleep deprivation it has been demonstrated that eventually these cause sleep or death.=20 But to decide for a child -- that is a matter for parents to consider as they have that duty, under Karma. I know this is an "open door." But aga= in THEOSOPHY does not dogmatize for specific cases It says in effect: Use your common sense. Discover the Principles that are operative in all cas= es, and apply them.=20=20 In these days, to maintain a sure and fearless belief in reincarnation is rare. But then, who has yet seen or discussed the matter with the REAL IN= NER SPIRIT of any man or woman so far ? [ Or even in meditation with one's = own Inner SELF ? Only THEOSOPHY speaks of this, and indicates ways in which i= t may be done.]=20 No, our sole knowledge is that the INNER SPIRIT, our Real Self, requires specifically a continuity in a single body; and its condition, before or after the death of that present body, is quite unknown and unprovable so far. Current beliefs state that the body and the indwelling SPIRIT are th= e same thing. But are they?=20 No, THEOSOPHY does not dogmatize, but it does offer the rules and facts o= f life, as it know it too be. Dal Dallas =20=20=20 -----Original Message----- From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:47 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Hi Dallas, I hope your well , As with all things we as individuals need to try and use wise discernment and certainly when it comes to ourselves our choices are our own based on our knowledge and understanding of occult principles. But when it comes to children who lives could have been saved by a blood transfusion, I simply find it outrageous that these children have been allowed to die over a discission made by the parents because of the blind following of dogma. I hope no theosophical student would ever follow any theosophical statement blindly no matter who wrote it. Theosophical study is one as you know that takes lifetimes of work and is not meant to be followed blindly but rather Self realised. The information may or may not be correct we can never presume that it is correct especially if a persons life other than our own hangs in the balance. What we choose for ourselves is another matter. Sorry to hear you've been in hospital hope alls ok! Regards Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: > Dec 19 2004 >=20 > Dear Perry: >=20 > What you say is correct and reflects the current medical view. >=20 > They know nothing of Occultism. >=20 > Preserving life in an old, decrepit and almost useless body is ridiculous in > the face of individual immortality and reincarnation -- which are spoofed at > by present day materialism in medicine and even law. >=20 > Let me put it this way: THEOSOPHY teaches a number of things that > materialism currently does not know anything about. That does not make > THEOSOPHY either dogmatic or wrong.=20=20 >=20 > But it ought to encourage deeper research. >=20 > The application of knowledge is always left to the one who provides it. The > motive for providing it is the desideratum of Karma. >=20 > In THEOSOPHY ethics and morals are everything. Science does not yet accept > those.=20 >=20 > So it is up to us to use or not use. >=20 > Dallas >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@y...]=20 > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 7:50 PM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed >=20 >=20 >=20 > Hello Dallas, > I was a little concerned over your comments on blood transfusions and > organ donations. > As an ex JW I know the needless and pointless suffering and waste of > life that can result from these type of dogmatic beliefs. >=20 > The ethical dimension to this is to me not just a matter of our > attachment to the body and/or the occult effects of having someone > else's blood in our veins but if we are able to extend our life though > either a blood transfusion or organ donation are we not duty bound to > use whatever means we can to either save someone else's > (especially!!!) life or our own as long as it is not at the cost of > another's? >=20 > The occult consequences of these procedures while perhaps coming at a > price may be far outweighed by the good we can do while in incarnation. >=20 > Perry >=20 >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" > wrote: > > Dec 18 2004 > >=20 > > Dear Vera: > >=20 > > You asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does THEOSOPHY > > offer anything. > >=20 > >=20 > > THEOSOPHY does not recommend either of these for the reason that the > astral > > body and Karma attached to those are always incompatible and > dangerous to > > some extent.=20 > >=20 > > Physical medicine and the science of modern healing look on the > human body > > as a fairly adaptable series if interchangeable parts - which is > not so. > >=20 > > The Universe organizes through the astral body each person with > their own > > particular set of personalized and individual organs and substances. > These > > are always related to the individual's Karma.=20 > >=20 > > To some extent Medical science recognizes incompatibilities such as > in blood > > transfusions and the compatibility (by DNA testing) of proposed organ > > transplants (heart, lungs, etc. ) and cures for cancer attacked > parts of the > > body.=20 > >=20 > > One of our problems is psychological: Most fear death. Those who > have had > > NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES ( NDE ) have lost such fear as they realize that > > they as SPIRITUAL SOULS survive physical death. Med. Sc. Tries to > preserve > > "life"-- at any cost, in the most shattered of physical bodies. > >=20 > > THEOSOPHY states all bodies are replaceable under nature's rules and > laws. > > And while everyone grieves for the loss of a loved one, There is the > > knowledge that under Karma we will all meet again, and love and live and > > work together, in the future. [ For example, we don't grieve when > one goes > > to sleep before another does? We know that we will wake up and continue > > life in a fresh day. It is so with the larger separation of "death." ] > >=20 > > I attach here an article written generally on this.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > THE CURE OF DISEASES > >=20 > >=20 > > MORTAL ills and the needs of the stomach rank next after the instinct of > > self-preservation among all the subjects which engage the attention > of the > > race.=20 > > If we do not go on living we cannot do the work we think there is to > do; if > > we remain hungry we will lose the power to work properly or to > enjoy, and at > > last come to the door of death. From bad or scanty food follows a > train of > > physical ills called generally disease.=20 > >=20 > > Disease reaches us also through too much food. So in every direction > these > > ills attack us; even when our feeding is correct and sufficient it > is found > > that we fall a prey because our Karma, settled by ourselves is some > previous > > life, ordains that we enter on this one handicapped by the > hereditary taint > > due to the wickedness or the errors of our fathers and mothers.=20 > >=20 > > And the records of science show that the taint in the blood or the > lymph may > > jump over many lives, attacking with virulence some generation > distant very > > far from the source.=20 > >=20 > > What wonder, then that the cure of disease is an all-absorbing > subject with > > every one! The Christian knows that it is decreed by Almighty God > that He > > will visit the sins of the fathers upon the children even to the > third and > > fourth generation, and the non-believer sees that by some power in > nature > > the penalty is felt even so far. > >=20 > > All of this has given to the schools of mental and so-called > "metaphysical" > > healing a strong pull on the fears, the feelings, the wishes, and > the bodies > > of those to whom they address themselves, and especially in the Unite= d > > States.=20 > > That there is more attention given to the subject in America seems > true to > > those who have been on the other side of the Atlantic and noticed > how small > > is the proportion of people there who know anything about the > subject. But > > in the United States in every town many can be found who know about > these > > schools and practice after their methods. Why it has more hold here > can be > > left to conjecture, as the point under consideration is why it has > any hold > > at all. It is something like patent medicine.=20 > >=20 > > Offer a cure to people for their many ills, and they will take it > up; offer > > it cheap, and they will use it; offer it as an easy method, and they > will > > rush for it under certain conditions.=20 > >=20 > > Metaphysical healing is easy for some because it declares, first, > that no > > money need be paid to doctors for medicine; second, that medical > fluids and > > drugs may be dispensed with; and third that it is easily learned and > > practiced. The difficulties that arise out of the necessities of > logic are > > not present for those who never studied it, but are somewhat potent with > > those who reason correctly; - but that is not usual for the general > run of > > minds.=20 > >=20 > > They see certain effects and accept the assumed cause as the right > one. But > > many persons will not even investigate the system, because they think it > > requires them to postulate the non-existence of that which they see > before > > their eyes.=20 > >=20 > > The statements quoted from the monthly Christian Science in March > PATH are > > bars in the way of such minds. If they could be induced to just try the > > method offered for cure, belief might result, for effects indeed ofte= n > > follow.=20 > >=20 > > But the popular mind is not in favor of "mind cure," and more > prominence is > > given in the daily papers to cases of death under it than to cures. > And very > > full reports always appear of a case such as one in March, where "faith > > curers," in order to restore life, went to praying over the dead > body of one > > of the members of a believing family. > >=20 > > During a recent tour over this country from the Atlantic to the > Pacific and > > back, I had the opportunity of meeting hundreds of disciples of these > > schools, and found in nearly all cases that they were not addicted > to logic > > but calmly ignored very plain propositions, satisfied that if cures were > > accomplished the cause claimed must be the right one, and almost without > > exception they denied the existence of evil or pain or suffering.=20 > >=20 > > There was a concurrence of testimony from all to show that the > dominant idea > > in their minds was the cure of their bodily ills and the continuance of > > health. The accent was not on the beauty of holiness or the value to > them > > and the community of a right moral system and right life, but on the > cure of > > their diseases.=20 > >=20 > > So the conclusion has been forced home that all these schools exist > because > > people desire to be well more than they desire to be good, although > they do > > not object to goodness if that shall bring wholeness. > >=20 > > And, indeed, one does not have to be good to gain the benefit of the > > teachings. It is enough to have confidence, to assert boldly that > this does > > not exist and that that has no power to hurt one.=20 > > I do not say the teachers of the "science" agree with me herein, but > only > > that whether you are good or bad the results will follow the firm > practice > > of the method enjoined, irrespective of the ideas of the teachers. > >=20 > > For in pure mind-cure as compared with its congener "Christian > Science," you > > do not have to believe in Jesus and the gospels, yet the same > results are > > claimed, for Jesus taught that whatever you prayed for with faith, > that you > > should have. > >=20 > > Scientific research discloses that the bodies of our race are > infected with > > taints that cause nearly all of our diseases, and school after school of > > medicine has tried and still tries to find the remedy that will > dislodge the > > foulness in the blood.=20 > >=20 > > This is scientific, since it seeks the real physical cause; metaphysical > > healing says it cures, but cannot prove that the cause is destroyed > and not > > merely palliated.=20 > >=20 > > That there is some room for doubt history shows us, for none will > deny that > > many pure thinking and acting pair have brought forth children who > displayed > > some taint derived from a distant ancestor. Evidently their pure > individual > > thoughts had no power over the great universal development of the matter > > used by those human bodies. > >=20 > > Turning now to medicine we find the Italian Count Mattei promulgating a > > system of cure by the homeopathic use of subtle vegetable essences > which may > > well give pause to those who would make universal the curing by faith or > > mind alone. Some of his liquids will instantly stop a violent pain, > restore > > sight, give back hearing, and dissipate abnormal growths. His > globules will > > make a drunken man sober, and, given to the nurse who suckles a > babe, will > > cure the child who takes the milk. The drunkard and the child do not > think > > about or have faith in the remedies, yet they cure. Is it not better to > > restore health by physical means and leave the high teachings of the > > healers, all taken from well know sources, for the benefit of our moral > > nature?=20 > >=20 > > And if Christian healers read these lines, should they not remember that > > when the prophet restored the widow's son he used physical means - > his own > > magnetism applied simultaneously to every member of the child's > body, and > > Jesus, when the woman who touched his garment was cured, lost a > portion of > > his vitality - not his thoughts - for he said "virtue" had gone out from > > him?=20 > > The Apostle also gave directions that if any were sick the others should > > assemble about the bed and anoint with oil, laying on their hands > meanwhile: > > simply physical therapeutics following a long line of ancient precedent > > dating back to Noah.=20 > >=20 > > Moses taught how to cure diseases and to disinfect places where > contagion > > lurked. It was not by using the high power of thought, but by processes > > deemed by him to be effectual, such as sprinkling blood of animals > > slaughtered in peculiar circumstances.=20 > >=20 > > Without declaring for or against his methods, it is very certain that he > > supposed by these means subtle forces of a physical nature would be > > liberated and brought to bear on the case in hand. > >=20 > > The mass of testimony through the ages is against healing physical > ills by > > the use of the higher forces in nature, and the reason, once well > known but > > later on forgotten, is the one given in the article of January, > 1892, - that > > diseases are gross manifestations showing themselves on their way > out of the > > nature so that one may be purified.=20 > >=20 > > To arrest them though thought ignorantly directed is to throw them > back into > > their cause and replant them in their mental plane. > >=20 > > This is the true ground of our objection to metaphysical healing > practices, > > which we distinguish from the assumptions and so-called philosophy > on which > > those methods are claimed to stand. For we distinctly urge that the > effects > > are not brought by any philosophical system whatever, but by the > practical > > though ignorant use of psycho-physiological processes. > >=20 > > William Q. Judge Path, September, 1892 > >=20 > >=20 > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >=20 > > I hope this may be of some help, > >=20 > >=20 > > Best wishes, > >=20 > > Dallas > >=20 > >=20 > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Vera Santos=20 > > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 3:30 PM > > To:=20 > > Subject: [bn-study] help needed > >=20 > > Your friend asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does > > THEOSOPHY offer anything. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 10:49:09 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 42106 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 18:49:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 18:49:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.28) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 18:49:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n14.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 18:48:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.254] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 18:48:44 -0000 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:48:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.28 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Albert Rawson on HPB smoking hashish X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell see: http://theos-l.com/archives/199804/tl00103.html Daniel http://hpb.cc From jjhe@charter.net Mon Dec 20 10:54:42 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjhe@charter.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7860 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 18:54:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 18:54:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxsf16.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.28.216) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 18:54:34 -0000 Received: from mxip19.cluster1.charter.net (mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.149]) by mxsf16.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBKIrwZs018904 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 13:54:03 -0500 Received: from 68-116-80-89.ca.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (68.116.80.89) by mxip19.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 20 Dec 2004 13:54:01 -0500 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.88,76,1102309200"; d="scan'217,208"; a="639269116:sNHT57964604" Message-ID: <41C71FC9.2010203@charter.net> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:54:01 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-GB; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.225.28.216 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Jerry Hejka-Ekins: "Pat Deveney has a fascinating article on A.L. Rawson...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106201926 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel, Why are you duplicating this dialogue on at least two discussion boards? --j Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: >Dear Jerry, > >Thanks for your futher comments below. > >Let me once again quote your original words: > > > >>>>>"I think you will be very interested in the >>>>>October [2004] issue of Theosophical History, which >>>>>should be going into the mail in the next >>>>>week or so. Pat Deveney has a fascinating >>>>>article on A.L. Rawson, whose testimony has >>>>>been used to prove some things about HPB, >>>>>while other statements of his have been >>>>>ignored when they were --let us >>>>>say--inconvient to the party-line >>>>>version of history. With giving away >>>>>the article, just let me say that Mr. >>>>>Deveney has dug us some real surprises >>>>>which am sure that certain Theosophical >>>>>apologists who pose as >>>>>historians will have to explain away." >>>>> >>>>> > >Now let me quote your latest words about >the Deveney comments of yours: > >"....it was a rhetorical statement written >in context to the subject of communicating >Theosophy to a post modern generation. In >that context, it is self explanatory and >very tongue in cheek, as it reflects upon >modernist verses post modernist attitudes. >In context, the statement does not mean, nor >was it intended to mean that Theosophical >apologists have for some reason an obligation >or compulsion to put forth an explanation--which, >of course, is pure nonsense." > >I simply do not understand what you are trying to >tell us by calling your initial statement "a >rhetorical statement written in context...In that >context, it is self explanatory and very tongue in >cheek...." > >I have no idea exactly what you are trying to >tell me. > >All I was trying to ask you with my first posting >was in a general context, in your opinion are there >"surprises" in Deveney's article that pro-Blavatsky >students (Theosophical apologists???] might have >a problem with and therefore might try to discount >by explaining them away? > >And if there are such "surprises" I was wondering >what specific items of information you were thinking >of when you labelled them "surprises". > >What is my opinion of Deveney's article? Well, >certainly Mr. Deveney has done a great deal of >research into Rawson's life and claims. I would >think Deveney may be writing a full length >biography of Rawson considering the depth of >Deveney's research. > >Daniel > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins >wrote: > > >> Dan, >>As I said before, it was a rhetorical statement written in context >> >> >to > > >>the subject of communicating Theosophy to a post modern >> >> >generation. In > > >>that context, it is self explanatory and very tongue in cheek, as >> >> >it > > >>reflects upon modernist verses post modernist attitudes. In >> >> >context, the > > >>statement does not mean, nor was it intended to mean that >> >> >Theosophical > > >>apologists have for some reason an obligation or compulsion to put >> >> >forth > > >>an explanation--which, of course, is pure nonsense. There is an >> >> >old > > >>saying--"Context is everything" but getting a feel for the tone >> >> >helps > > >>too. >> >>Now, to my question, which I ask you again: What are you thoughts >> >> >on > > >>Deveney's article? >>--j >> >>BTW, why are you writing identical messages to me on two different >>discussion boards? This is silly. >>j >> >> >> >>Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: >> >> >> >>>Jerry, >>> >>>Thanks for your reply below but I am still >>>puzzled by your initial statement. >>> >>>Therefore I ask you again: >>> >>>Could you share with us your >>>thoughts as to why you >>>felt these "surprises" would >>>have to be explained away >>>by the Theosophical apologists? >>> >>>Daniel >>>http://hpb.cc >>> >>> >>>--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins >>>wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Dan, >>>> >>>>First of all, I did not have you in mind when I used the phrase >>>>"Theosophical apologists." >>>> >>>>Second, the comment was in the context of a discussion I was >>>> >>>> >having > > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>with >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Dallas concerning modernist verses post modernist approaches to >>>>communicating theosophy, and therefore the comment was >>>> >>>> >rhetorical. > > >>>>Regarding the article in TH, I was indeed surprised by some of >>>> >>>> >the > > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>data >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Deveney found in his research, and I believe that anyone >>>> >>>> >interested > > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>in >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Theosophical history will also be surprised. Were you not >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>surprised? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>If you were already aware of everything that Deveney had >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>discovered >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>concerning Rawson, then you are way ahead of me, and ahead of >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Deveney >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>too. In any case, I would be interested in reading your comments >>>>concerning the article. >>>>--j >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Sometime ago, Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: >>>>> >>>>>"I think you will be very interested in the >>>>>October [2004] issue of Theosophical History, which >>>>>should be going into the mail in the next >>>>>week or so. Pat Deveney has a fascinating >>>>>article on A.L. Rawson, whose testimony has >>>>>been used to prove some things about HPB, >>>>>while other statements of his have been >>>>>ignored when they were --let us >>>>>say--inconvient to the party-line >>>>>version of history. With giving away >>>>>the article, just let me say that Mr. >>>>>Deveney has dug us some real surprises >>>>>which am sure that certain Theosophical >>>>>apologists who pose as >>>>>historians will have to explain away." >>>>> >>>>>I have now read the Deveney article and though >>>>> >>>>>the article may contain "some real surprises", I >>>>> >>>>>am somewhat puzzled why these "surprises" will >>>>> >>>>>have to be explained away by "certain Theosophical >>>>> >>>>>apologists who pose as historians." >>>>> >>>>>It is unclear to me why these apologists would >>>>> >>>>>have to explain anything away as given in >>>>> >>>>>the Deveney article. >>>>> >>>>>I am also puzzled why Jerry apparently >>>>> >>>>>felt the need to label certain unnamed >>>>> >>>>>individuals as "Theosophical >>>>> >>>>>apologists who pose as historians." >>>>> >>>>>I think we can safely assume that >>>>> >>>>>Jerry does not consider himself >>>>> >>>>>as one of these Theosophical >>>>> >>>>>apologists. >>>>> >>>>>Maybe Jerry could share with >>>>> >>>>>us his thoughts as to why he >>>>> >>>>>felt these "surprises" would >>>>> >>>>>have to be explained away >>>>> >>>>>by the Theosophical apologists. >>>>> >>>>>Daniel >>>>>http://hpb.cc >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 10:56:40 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 29813 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 18:56:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 18:56:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.20) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 18:56:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n12.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 18:53:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.114] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 18:53:42 -0000 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:53:40 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1498 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.20 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Brigitte Muehlegger on Rawson and my comments X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell You [Brigitte Muehlegger] also wrote: "I therefore don't think Rawson's testimony about Blavatsky should be dismissed, he is certainly one of the few people that know of the more intimate aspects of Blavatsky's life. And his aquintance with Blavatsky goes further back then that of Olcott and Blavatsky." I agree that we should not hastily dismiss Rawson's testimony but we should not try to read into his testimony more than what is there stated. For example, what is the SPECIFIC evidence that supports your statement that Rawson "is certainly one of the few people that know of the more intimate aspects of Balvatsky's life." For what period of time did Rawson know Blavatsky? Did Rawson actually know more about the intimate aspects of HPB's life than Olcott or Wachtmeister did? And if you say "Yes", how do you know that is a true statement? For example, Paul Johnson says Rawson was a life long friend of Blavatsky, but where is the evidence to support that generalization? How much contact was there between Blavatsky and Rawson in the time period 1879 through 1891, for example? Before Blavatsky came to America in 1873, how much contact had she had with Rawson? Did Rawson have more contact in America with Blavatsky than Olcott or Wilder or Judge? What we need here is evidence that answers these questions, not just speculation paraded as factual statements. Daniel Caldwell Quoted from: http://theos-talk.com/archives/200112/tt00267.html Quoted from From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 11:02:54 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14828 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 19:02:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 19:02:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.46) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 19:02:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n17.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 19:02:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.151] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 19:02:31 -0000 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 19:02:25 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1118 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.46 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Brigitte again & Johnson on Albert Rawson X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell The person, close to Blavatsky with a significant impact regarding Blavatsky's invented biography and non existent travels who spend time in jail for teft is Albert Rawson. It was revealed that Rawson had been convicted of theft in New Jersey in 1851 and had spent the period from September 1851 through June 1852 in jail for the crime. Also the papers of Rawson's divorce for bigamy in 1864 wher published, which reveal, among other things Rawson's whereabouts in the remainder of the early 1850s, all of which call into question the presumptive dating of Rawson's travels with H.P.B. in Egypt in the same period. This information is admitted and publishized by Rawson himself in "An Open Letter to Elizur Wright", in: The Truth Seeker, November 22, 1879, pages 749 & 753 Wenn I asked Paul Johnson (who Daniel likes to quote so much now) reg. the above he answerred: "The implication might be that Rawson was participating in a fraud to support HPB's claims of travel and initiations, as of his letters on her behalf in 1877/78." Quoted from http://theos-talk.com/archives/200111/tt00516.html From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 11:08:02 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 46614 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 19:08:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 19:08:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.20) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 19:08:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n12.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 19:07:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 19:07:29 -0000 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 19:07:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41C71FC9.2010203@charter.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 8636 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.20 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Re: Jerry Hejka-Ekins: "Pat Deveney has a fascinating article on A.L. Rawson...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Initially when I posted my comments, I did not know which of these 2 boards you were currently reading, so I posted my comments to both. Since then since you have also posted followup comments to both boards, I have also done so in case readers on either boards were also interested in the followup posts. Daniel --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > Daniel, > > Why are you duplicating this dialogue on at least two discussion boards? > > --j > > Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: > > >Dear Jerry, > > > >Thanks for your futher comments below. > > > >Let me once again quote your original words: > > > > > > > >>>>>"I think you will be very interested in the > >>>>>October [2004] issue of Theosophical History, which > >>>>>should be going into the mail in the next > >>>>>week or so. Pat Deveney has a fascinating > >>>>>article on A.L. Rawson, whose testimony has > >>>>>been used to prove some things about HPB, > >>>>>while other statements of his have been > >>>>>ignored when they were --let us > >>>>>say--inconvient to the party-line > >>>>>version of history. With giving away > >>>>>the article, just let me say that Mr. > >>>>>Deveney has dug us some real surprises > >>>>>which am sure that certain Theosophical > >>>>>apologists who pose as > >>>>>historians will have to explain away." > >>>>> > >>>>> > > > >Now let me quote your latest words about > >the Deveney comments of yours: > > > >"....it was a rhetorical statement written > >in context to the subject of communicating > >Theosophy to a post modern generation. In > >that context, it is self explanatory and > >very tongue in cheek, as it reflects upon > >modernist verses post modernist attitudes. > >In context, the statement does not mean, nor > >was it intended to mean that Theosophical > >apologists have for some reason an obligation > >or compulsion to put forth an explanation--which, > >of course, is pure nonsense." > > > >I simply do not understand what you are trying to > >tell us by calling your initial statement "a > >rhetorical statement written in context...In that > >context, it is self explanatory and very tongue in > >cheek...." > > > >I have no idea exactly what you are trying to > >tell me. > > > >All I was trying to ask you with my first posting > >was in a general context, in your opinion are there > >"surprises" in Deveney's article that pro-Blavatsky > >students (Theosophical apologists???] might have > >a problem with and therefore might try to discount > >by explaining them away? > > > >And if there are such "surprises" I was wondering > >what specific items of information you were thinking > >of when you labelled them "surprises". > > > >What is my opinion of Deveney's article? Well, > >certainly Mr. Deveney has done a great deal of > >research into Rawson's life and claims. I would > >think Deveney may be writing a full length > >biography of Rawson considering the depth of > >Deveney's research. > > > >Daniel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins > >wrote: > > > > > >> Dan, > >>As I said before, it was a rhetorical statement written in context > >> > >> > >to > > > > > >>the subject of communicating Theosophy to a post modern > >> > >> > >generation. In > > > > > >>that context, it is self explanatory and very tongue in cheek, as > >> > >> > >it > > > > > >>reflects upon modernist verses post modernist attitudes. In > >> > >> > >context, the > > > > > >>statement does not mean, nor was it intended to mean that > >> > >> > >Theosophical > > > > > >>apologists have for some reason an obligation or compulsion to put > >> > >> > >forth > > > > > >>an explanation--which, of course, is pure nonsense. There is an > >> > >> > >old > > > > > >>saying--"Context is everything" but getting a feel for the tone > >> > >> > >helps > > > > > >>too. > >> > >>Now, to my question, which I ask you again: What are you thoughts > >> > >> > >on > > > > > >>Deveney's article? > >>--j > >> > >>BTW, why are you writing identical messages to me on two different > >>discussion boards? This is silly. > >>j > >> > >> > >> > >>Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Jerry, > >>> > >>>Thanks for your reply below but I am still > >>>puzzled by your initial statement. > >>> > >>>Therefore I ask you again: > >>> > >>>Could you share with us your > >>>thoughts as to why you > >>>felt these "surprises" would > >>>have to be explained away > >>>by the Theosophical apologists? > >>> > >>>Daniel > >>>http://hpb.cc > >>> > >>> > >>>--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins > >>>wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Dan, > >>>> > >>>>First of all, I did not have you in mind when I used the phrase > >>>>"Theosophical apologists." > >>>> > >>>>Second, the comment was in the context of a discussion I was > >>>> > >>>> > >having > > > > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>with > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Dallas concerning modernist verses post modernist approaches to > >>>>communicating theosophy, and therefore the comment was > >>>> > >>>> > >rhetorical. > > > > > >>>>Regarding the article in TH, I was indeed surprised by some of > >>>> > >>>> > >the > > > > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>data > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Deveney found in his research, and I believe that anyone > >>>> > >>>> > >interested > > > > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>in > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Theosophical history will also be surprised. Were you not > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>surprised? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>If you were already aware of everything that Deveney had > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>discovered > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>concerning Rawson, then you are way ahead of me, and ahead of > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>Deveney > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>too. In any case, I would be interested in reading your comments > >>>>concerning the article. > >>>>--j > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>Sometime ago, Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>"I think you will be very interested in the > >>>>>October [2004] issue of Theosophical History, which > >>>>>should be going into the mail in the next > >>>>>week or so. Pat Deveney has a fascinating > >>>>>article on A.L. Rawson, whose testimony has > >>>>>been used to prove some things about HPB, > >>>>>while other statements of his have been > >>>>>ignored when they were --let us > >>>>>say--inconvient to the party-line > >>>>>version of history. With giving away > >>>>>the article, just let me say that Mr. > >>>>>Deveney has dug us some real surprises > >>>>>which am sure that certain Theosophical > >>>>>apologists who pose as > >>>>>historians will have to explain away." > >>>>> > >>>>>I have now read the Deveney article and though > >>>>> > >>>>>the article may contain "some real surprises", I > >>>>> > >>>>>am somewhat puzzled why these "surprises" will > >>>>> > >>>>>have to be explained away by "certain Theosophical > >>>>> > >>>>>apologists who pose as historians." > >>>>> > >>>>>It is unclear to me why these apologists would > >>>>> > >>>>>have to explain anything away as given in > >>>>> > >>>>>the Deveney article. > >>>>> > >>>>>I am also puzzled why Jerry apparently > >>>>> > >>>>>felt the need to label certain unnamed > >>>>> > >>>>>individuals as "Theosophical > >>>>> > >>>>>apologists who pose as historians." > >>>>> > >>>>>I think we can safely assume that > >>>>> > >>>>>Jerry does not consider himself > >>>>> > >>>>>as one of these Theosophical > >>>>> > >>>>>apologists. > >>>>> > >>>>>Maybe Jerry could share with > >>>>> > >>>>>us his thoughts as to why he > >>>>> > >>>>>felt these "surprises" would > >>>>> > >>>>>have to be explained away > >>>>> > >>>>>by the Theosophical apologists. > >>>>> > >>>>>Daniel > >>>>>http://hpb.cc > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Mon Dec 20 11:08:51 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94150 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 19:08:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 19:08:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.36) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 19:08:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 19:08:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 19:08:00 -0000 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 19:07:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 22 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.36 From: "Anand Gholap" X-Originating-IP: 202.54.51.5 Subject: Original Cheating X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: anand_gholap_1 How is this new term. From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Mon Dec 20 11:12:44 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 84688 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 19:12:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 19:12:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.20) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 19:12:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n12.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 19:12:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2004 19:12:29 -0000 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 19:11:41 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 230 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.20 From: "Anand Gholap" X-Originating-IP: 202.54.51.5 Subject: Re: Original Cheating X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: anand_gholap_1 People should use spelling carefully. In original teaching just by changing place of t and ch it becomes original cheating. --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anand Gholap" wrote: > > How is this new term. From jjhe@charter.net Mon Dec 20 12:31:24 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjhe@charter.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 25968 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 20:31:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 20:31:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxsf15.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.28.215) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 20:31:23 -0000 Received: from mxip04.cluster1.charter.net (mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.134]) by mxsf15.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBKKVMTA032272 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:31:22 -0500 Received: from 68-116-80-89.ca.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (68.116.80.89) by mxip04.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 20 Dec 2004 15:31:23 -0500 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.88,76,1102309200"; d="scan'208"; a="507143848:sNHT13891296" Message-ID: <41C7369A.7000704@charter.net> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 12:31:22 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-GB; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.225.28.215 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Jerry Hejka-Ekins: "Pat Deveney has a fascinating article on A.L. Rawson...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106201926 Daniel, Any board I subscribe to comes to the same computer and to the same mail box. I see everything sent to me including the spam. The appropriate board to post a question concerning a previous posting of mine is on the board where the previous posting originally appeared; in this case: theos-talk. For future reference: I have no problem if you want to quote me (in or out of context) on another board as a source or point of reference in order to argue for or against some point of your own. Though, if you do that, I suggest that you also mention where the entire post originally appeared and can be found. That is fair usage. Aside from fair usage, I do have a problem when I find my own material republished by others either electronically or in print where I never intended them to be. My point is that anything I write is my intellectual property. Therefore, I believe that I should be the sole person to determine where anything I write will appear. I'm sure that in the future you will respect my position, whether you agree with it or not. So thanks in advance. Concerning your question, you previously wrote: >All I was trying to ask you with my first posting >was in a general context, in your opinion are there >"surprises" in Deveney's article that pro-Blavatsky >students (Theosophical apologists???] might have >a problem with and therefore might try to discount >by explaining them away? > The question you pose here is very much off the subject of my dialogue with Dallas, and derives from a quote which you pulled out of context of the subject, and, as I previous pointed out to you in two previous posts, the sense of the quote completely changes when it is taken out of the context of the entire dialogue. As I previously wrote, the subject of my dialogue with Dallas concerns the communication of Theosophical ideas to the general public. It is not about Theosophical history, even when references to that subject come up. Now, your question, appears to concern my opinion of Deveney's article. This is an entirely different subject, and one I never had any intention of pursuing on any discussion board. But to answer your question: Yes, in my opinion, some "pro-Blavatsky students" will be surprised by several of Deveney's statements and conclusions. In the past, Dr. Santucci has received letters of complaint whenever articles of this nature have appeared in Theosophical History. The problem is that TH is not a Theosophical journal. Rather, it is a research journal about theosophy. I know of several students of Theosophy who are unable to distinguish between these two kinds of journals, though I have tried to explain it to them. I'm confident that you very well know the difference, so I'm not going to explain it here. I hope, this time, that I have answered your question to your satisfaction. --j Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: >Initially when I posted my comments, I did not >know which of these 2 boards you were currently >reading, so I posted my comments to both. > >Since then since you have also posted followup >comments to both boards, I have also done so in case >readers on either boards were also interested >in the followup posts. > >Daniel > > > From eldon@theosophy.com Mon Dec 20 13:23:41 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 79815 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 21:23:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 21:23:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rly-ip05.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.9) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 21:23:40 -0000 Received: from smtp-mtc08.proxy.aol.com (smtp-mtc08.proxy.aol.com [64.12.118.84]) by rly-ip05.mx.aol.com (v98.19) with ESMTP id RELAYIN1-241c742c11d3; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 16:23:13 -0400 Received: from scribe (ACA537CE.ipt.aol.com [172.165.55.206]) by smtp-mtc08.proxy.aol.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBKLN5GH018587 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 16:23:15 -0500 Message-Id: <200412202123.iBKLN5GH018587@smtp-mtc08.proxy.aol.com> To: Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 13:22:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcTm2aACvc3GeYejTwmBncgp25BQZQAACd3A X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.43 X-Apparently-From: ERR_USER_NULL X-AOL-IP: 64.12.118.84 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.138.9 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: religious debate X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Something funny I saw at work: Several centuries ago, the Pope decreed that all the Jews had to convert or leave Italy. There was a huge outcry from the Jewish community, so the Pope offered a deal.. He would have a religious debate with the leader of the Jewish community. If the Jews won, they could stay in Italy, if the Pope won, they would have to leave. The Jewish people met and picked an aged but wise Rabbi, Moishe, to represent them in the debate. However, as Moishe spoke no Italian and the Pope spoke no Hebrew, they all agreed that it would be a "silent" debate. On the chosen day, the Pope and Rabbi Moishe sat opposite each other for a full minute before the Pope raised his hand and showed three fingers. Rabbi Moishe looked back and raised one finger. Next the Pope waved his finger around his head. Rabbi Moshe pointed to the ground where he sat. The Pope then brought out a communion wafer and a chalice of wine. Rabbi Moishe pulled out an apple. With that, the Pope stood up and declared that he was beaten, that Rabbi Moishe was too clever and that the Jews could stay. Later, the Cardinals met with the Pope, asking what had happened. The Pope said, "First I held up three fingers to represent the Trinity. He responded by holding up one finger to remind me that there is still only one God common to both our beliefs. Then, I waved my finger to show him that God was all around us. He responded by pointing to the ground to show that God was also right here with us. I pulled out the wine and wafer to show that God absolves us of all our sins. He pulled out an apple to remind me of the original sin. He had me beaten and I could not continue." Meanwhile the Jewish community were gathered around Rabbi Moishe. "How did you win the debate?" they asked. "I haven't a clue," said Moishe, "First he said to me that we had three days to get out of Italy, so I said to him, "Up yours!" Then he tells me that the whole country would be cleared of Jews and I said to him, we're staying right here." "And then what," asked a woman. "Who knows?" said Moishe, "He took out his lunch so I took out mine." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ibse03888@blueyonder.co.uk Mon Dec 20 14:49:13 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ibse03888@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 38439 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 22:49:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 22:49:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-out6.blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.213.9) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 22:49:11 -0000 Received: from your904q9zk0ar ([82.41.84.59]) by smtp-out6.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:49:27 +0000 Message-ID: <004101c4e6e6$14666d20$3b542952@your904q9zk0ar> To: Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:48:52 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Return-Path: ibse03888@blueyonder.co.uk X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Dec 2004 22:49:27.0755 (UTC) FILETIME=[28F9E9B0:01C4E6E6] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 195.188.213.9 From: "Iain" Subject: transfusions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=182405197 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a 98 pint donor of blood /plasma/platlets I dont think my Karma has dimminished,As the donations are given annonomously I keep looking out for people wheather they are premature babies requiring a teaspoonful of blood too RTA or assault victims needing several pints I dont think it matters what ever Karma is there it will be diluted by the recipients own body fluids, I have not come accross any misfortunates who have taken on my characteristics .I do not see them wandering aimlessly in town,bewildered, bamboozled & etc, or to be found at parties asking " Do I come here often?!!!" I am of the opinion that blood/organs can be used to give or sustain life is the greatest gift that anyone can give, if you pass on some form of Karma it can only be good if that touch of spirit gives life to a body so that body shall flourish and develop, that it does not touch it withers and dies. The last Jehovah's Witness that strayed to my door was a young lad who enquired of me "Good morning sir, But do you lead the life of Christ?" I replied "Listen son, with my wife I don't even lead the life of a dog!!!" cheers Iain [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 20 15:01:15 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20523 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2004 23:01:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2004 23:01:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2004 23:01:14 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CgWWg-0001gz-0R for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:01:14 -0500 Message-ID: <41C759BF.9000207@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:01:19 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <41C7369A.7000704@charter.net> In-Reply-To: <41C7369A.7000704@charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba1714ce8f3e8f5dd03ddf8934fa75e81b667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.67 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Jerry Hejka-Ekins: "Pat Deveney has a fascinating article on A.L. Rawson...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > intended them to be. My point is that anything I write is my > intellectual property. Therefore, I believe that I should be the sole > person to determine where anything I write will appear. I'm sure that > in the future you will respect my position, whether you agree with it or > not. So thanks in advance. Wow! We're in total agreement on something! Bart From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 16:00:42 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66224 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 00:00:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 00:00:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.37) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 00:00:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2004 00:00:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.166] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2004 00:00:40 -0000 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:00:38 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 308 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.37 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: The Deveney Article on Albert Rawson X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Readers who would like a very brief summary of the above article will find an overview and commentary to that article by Dr. Santucci on the following webpage: http://theohistory.org/description-of-issues/desc_X.htm#issue4 see the very last 3 paragraphs at the bottom of the page. Daniel http://hpb.cc From silva_cass@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 16:27:33 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75086 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 00:27:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 00:27:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.79) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 00:27:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 63932 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Dec 2004 00:27:32 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Q5dE/RNUgr6A8ybg4DZH6quGmvh4cVxUxXp7iFiErIRJQuz0lEZ4+iMoy422+x+FmhbnfaSNe17KfIbC+e9skhavhCHqclG5qjid+iec4KsuwhIgg+6XCvhDAkSfbQE3fkRUH6WCAr2kM1r5Vza0VzAFSx+H70SFpemA77cAJsw= ; Message-ID: <20041221002732.63930.qmail@web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 16:27:32 PST Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 16:27:32 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <004101c4e6e6$14666d20$3b542952@your904q9zk0ar> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.79 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World transfusions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Iain I also think that blood and organs are a wonderful gift. I think, but could be wrong, that when an organ is passed to a donor, it passes with the donor's "vibrations". e.g. Heart recipients learning that they have a "desire" for something that they did not when there own heart was in place. I would imagine that in most cases these vibrations are harmless as their gift is given in altruism. However, one has to be careful in receiving blood as the blood may be infected, e.g. Aids. Although the blood is screened there are still a few cases that show up even in this day,of people, after receiving blood, have received other things as well. I was also wondering that if an organ of a deceased person, slows down the process of disintegration of the donor's physical human body and its astral counterpart. And what effect this would have on the donor's "after life". I believe that Theosophy does not advocate the mummification of bodies for this reason. Regards Cass Iain wrote: As a 98 pint donor of blood /plasma/platlets I dont think my Karma has dimminished,As the donations are given annonomously I keep looking out for people wheather they are premature babies requiring a teaspoonful of blood too RTA or assault victims needing several pints I dont think it matters what ever Karma is there it will be diluted by the recipients own body fluids, I have not come accross any misfortunates who have taken on my characteristics .I do not see them wandering aimlessly in town,bewildered, bamboozled & etc, or to be found at parties asking " Do I come here often?!!!" I am of the opinion that blood/organs can be used to give or sustain life is the greatest gift that anyone can give, if you pass on some form of Karma it can only be good if that touch of spirit gives life to a body so that body shall flourish and develop, that it does not touch it withers and dies. The last Jehovah's Witness that strayed to my door was a young lad who enquired of me "Good morning sir, But do you lead the life of Christ?" I replied "Listen son, with my wife I don't even lead the life of a dog!!!" cheers Iain [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 16:30:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75494 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 00:30:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 00:30:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.72) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 00:30:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 88581 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Dec 2004 00:30:51 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=LXHZ7DW4sho2hrgb7W5mbfzM7MY6VHWJVDlsiUr+RUo8PP79CLjBfLzlFrxpc4N+vAFKDUZeM5WBRSK5NduDxj45EMg+5HeH6+NtUubV3SZPxys4+yJ5FH4qg7/bQzQJakfDQVIw/OZyzSrYWJMQsz5oXvJ4wM6utpY/r3WNADA= ; Message-ID: <20041221003051.88579.qmail@web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 16:30:51 PST Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 16:30:51 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <200412202123.iBKLN5GH018587@smtp-mtc08.proxy.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.72 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World religious debate X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What a hoot. Pity there aren't more silent debates between religious and political leaders in the real world. Eldon B Tucker wrote: Something funny I saw at work: Several centuries ago, the Pope decreed that all the Jews had to convert or leave Italy. There was a huge outcry from the Jewish community, so the Pope offered a deal.. He would have a religious debate with the leader of the Jewish community. If the Jews won, they could stay in Italy, if the Pope won, they would have to leave. The Jewish people met and picked an aged but wise Rabbi, Moishe, to represent them in the debate. However, as Moishe spoke no Italian and the Pope spoke no Hebrew, they all agreed that it would be a "silent" debate. On the chosen day, the Pope and Rabbi Moishe sat opposite each other for a full minute before the Pope raised his hand and showed three fingers. Rabbi Moishe looked back and raised one finger. Next the Pope waved his finger around his head. Rabbi Moshe pointed to the ground where he sat. The Pope then brought out a communion wafer and a chalice of wine. Rabbi Moishe pulled out an apple. With that, the Pope stood up and declared that he was beaten, that Rabbi Moishe was too clever and that the Jews could stay. Later, the Cardinals met with the Pope, asking what had happened. The Pope said, "First I held up three fingers to represent the Trinity. He responded by holding up one finger to remind me that there is still only one God common to both our beliefs. Then, I waved my finger to show him that God was all around us. He responded by pointing to the ground to show that God was also right here with us. I pulled out the wine and wafer to show that God absolves us of all our sins. He pulled out an apple to remind me of the original sin. He had me beaten and I could not continue." Meanwhile the Jewish community were gathered around Rabbi Moishe. "How did you win the debate?" they asked. "I haven't a clue," said Moishe, "First he said to me that we had three days to get out of Italy, so I said to him, "Up yours!" Then he tells me that the whole country would be cleared of Jews and I said to him, we're staying right here." "And then what," asked a woman. "Who knows?" said Moishe, "He took out his lunch so I took out mine." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 17:35:45 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 88716 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 01:35:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 01:35:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40914.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.211) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 01:35:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 53614 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Dec 2004 01:35:34 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=At07ZMOlKg+uHuP8kUFu/PO8OWdplnsnFbAEH+N7lN6YTjYF+UA0E8AW9B7w01V/EpDDIFbwS4r3nC3MUQbmzKGwAAYym2iMELYUgvCqc3AjubpVlVkKT+Yh9MS8oB52mOwDIHv1x/Q+4bhY/9zpWXLZ1tGIx0xSX5fx2upfDBU= ; Message-ID: <20041221013534.53612.qmail@web40914.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40914.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 17:35:34 PST Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 17:35:34 -0800 (PST) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.78.211 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: 2003 Dissertation on Blavatsky & the Theosophical Movement Online X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Theosophical Movement of the Nineteenth Century by Arnold Kalnitsky University of South Africa, 2003. For full text online in pdf format see: http://etd.unisa.ac.za/ETD-db/ETD-desc/describe?urn=etd-08242004-151122#top Scroll down page to see links to pdf files of each chapter. Daniel Blavatsky Study Center http://hpb.cc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bbbrown@xtra.co.nz Mon Dec 20 17:50:51 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bbbrown@xtra.co.nz X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24864 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 01:50:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 01:50:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mta203-rme.xtra.co.nz) (210.86.15.146) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 01:50:51 -0000 Received: from pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([210.86.15.240]) by mta203-rme.xtra.co.nz with ESMTP id <20041221015045.JDQF21916.mta203-rme.xtra.co.nz@pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz> for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:50:45 +1300 Received: from home-user ([222.152.1.147]) by pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20041221015044.CZOI16943.pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz@home-user> for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:50:44 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <41C78143.000001.06981@HOME USER> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:49:55 +1300 (New Zealand Daylight Time) X-Mailer: IncrediMail (3001579) References: <20041221002732.63930.qmail@web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com> To: X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-Priority: 3 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 210.86.15.146 From: "Bee Brown" Subject: Re: Theos-World transfusions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=79246339 X-Yahoo-Profile: ladyb_nz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been following this discussion with much interest. There is also the dimension of the life atoms to be considered. I have been studying them for a long time now, trying to fit them into the scheme of things I understand it. As I understand the idea from my study, we all have our own life atoms that we attract back when we come into incarnation. It is them that attach to the pattern of the physical in the astral and begin the process of building up the atoms, cells etc that become the physical body. this also applies to all other planes of being as far as I understand. The life atoms we have are affected by our thoughts,deeds and all that we do during our life. They are referred to as little lives and I think they are monads beginning the long path of evolution. This means that what we think & do can help or hinder their progress as well as our own. Because they are our own, they are influenced by us and come and go in our various sheaths but are always attracted back to the place they feel most at home. The whole universe is life atoms that are building up what ever level they are on. I have learned much about them from G de Purucker who says that if we understood the work of the life atoms, we would also understand better the Brotherhood of all' concept. These life atoms answer the call of our re-incarnating ego and as they were ours in lives past, the inherited factor of physical problems and past karma comes with them. They are the very base upon which we exist so if organs, blood etc are exchanged then there is the life atoms as well as what has already been suggested about the astral body to consider. G de P talks about life atoms 'perigrenating' from us to others and back all the time and also when we die, he reckons that cremation releases them to go about their business until we return to use them again. They apparently will be part of other bodies if the magnetic attraction is strong enough to entice them. Otherwise they follow the circulations of the universe until they hear the call of their re-incarnating ego returning to another life. I understand more than I am able to express in a few words so I have shared what I can as I think this concept also adds weight to the question of organ transplants etc as foreign life atoms added to another ego's physical body may cause problems on a more subtle level. I think I would rather die earlier if that is my karma than perhaps get life atoms that are not compatible with my spiritual path and may cause a set back. I have realised that I am also responsible for the welfare of these life atoms that make up 'me' . I don't mind checking out this life-time as I hope the next time I come back, things may have improved a little. It is worth a study of what G de P has to say about these matters for anyone wanting more info. Kind regards Bee Dear Iain I also think that blood and organs are a wonderful gift. I think, but could be wrong, that when an organ is passed to a donor, it passes with the donor s "vibrations". e.g. Heart recipients learning that they have a "desire" for something that they did not when there own heart was in place. I would imagine that in most cases these vibrations are harmless as their gift is given in altruism. However, one has to be careful in receiving blood as the blood may be infected, e.g. Aids. Although the blood is screened there are still a few cases that show up even in this day,of people, after receiving blood, have received other things as well. I was also wondering that if an organ of a deceased person, slows down the process of disintegration of the donor's physical human body and its astral counterpart. And what effect this would have on the donor's "after life". I believe that Theosophy does not advocate the mummification of bodies for this reason. Regards Cass Iain wrote: As a 98 pint donor of blood /plasma/platlets I dont think my Karma has dimminished,As the donations are given annonomously I keep looking out for people wheather they are premature babies requiring a teaspoonful of blood too RTA or assault victims needing several pints I dont think it matters what ever Karma is there it will be diluted by the recipients own body fluids, I have not come accross any misfortunates who have taken on my characteristics .I do not see them wandering aimlessly in town,bewildered, bamboozled & etc, or to be found at parties asking " Do I come here often?!!!" I am of the opinion that blood/organs can be used to give or sustain life is the greatest gift that anyone can give, if you pass on some form of Karma it can only be good if that touch of spirit gives life to a body so that body shall flourish and develop, that it does not touch it withers and dies. The last Jehovah's Witness that strayed to my door was a young lad who enquired of me "Good morning sir, But do you lead the life of Christ?" I replied "Listen son, with my wife I don't even lead the life of a dog!!!" cheers Iain [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ramadoss@gbronline.com Mon Dec 20 18:11:14 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2452 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 02:11:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 02:11:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.12) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 02:11:13 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.97.98]) by mta2.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 24611527 for multiple; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 20:09:35 -0600 CST Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20041220195759.02e86a90@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 20:10:13 -0600 To: "Theosophy Study List" , theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-506D3A65 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 69.9.90.12 From: MKR Subject: Re: 2003 Dissertation on Blavatsky & the Theosophical Movement Online X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 Posting the dissertation on-line is to be commended. This is going to allow readers all over the world, especially in the third world countries to have immediate and cost-effective access to the material. This is in contrast with the traditional approach of trying to peddle hard copy versions, which while may make some money for the authors, does limit the circulation. Internet publication also cuts through all the editing/censoring that is likely to take place due to the involvement of the publisher. Whether one likes it or not, Internet is here to stay and one of these days may replace print media since a hardcopy can be locally printed if need be. mkr PS: Couple of years ago, I had a very interesting experience of interacting with a well known theosophist who always made a point of responding to me by snailmail even though e-mail was accessible to this person and many a time talked about Internet during fundraising context. One can only sympathize with the mental block since the person is old and set in his ways having grown up in pre-computer age. I will not be in the least surprised if this person is lurking and reading the postings here!!! At 05:35 PM 12/20/04 -0800, Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: >The Theosophical Movement of the Nineteenth Century >by Arnold Kalnitsky >University of South Africa, 2003. >For full text online in pdf format see: >http://etd.unisa.ac.za/ETD-db/ETD-desc/describe?urn=etd-08242004-151122#top -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.0 - Release Date: 12/17/04 From silva_cass@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 18:25:16 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 21384 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 02:25:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 02:25:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.72) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 02:25:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 8771 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Dec 2004 02:25:16 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=nbmbuZ1+wWKvFzyqIRA38dEvN7atwNOsODWfI8ksR7rHUgNNG1cV4XLVxTaQ1Vfphx9UqOJv4P5qVmkAnZRkcBU3LWkMydyWeydvlxN8Q5Ed5G0TmjbxtEK/DNJZ5EHJkzJxWgdaHjBQUoILL9PqAGW2y41a8pFeQou3FbRD8eI= ; Message-ID: <20041221022516.8769.qmail@web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:25:15 PST Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:25:15 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <41C78143.000001.06981@HOME USER> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.72 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World transfusions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bee Nice to have someone else from "downunder" on board. I read your piece of GdP, and you have succinctly put his interpretations together in terms of common sense understanding. Instead of looking at it as good or bad karma,(punishment or reward) The Sufi teaching says that "because our tendency is towards idealization that causes us to name as punishment and reward what is simply the outcome of our actions. Good cannot be the outcome of evil, neither can evil be the outcome of good. If we look down deeper within ourselves, we shall find that our deeds have a great effect on our inner being, and react and manifest on the surface as (what we see as) good or bad results. This explains right and wrong, good and evil. In other words, our body, mind, and heart, the factor of feelings, react on each other. If the body controls the mind, or the mind the feelings, the result is bad, for it is the lower plane having a control over the highter plane of existence. On the other hand, when the heart controls the mind, and the mind, the body, the result can only be good, as the higher self then has control over the lower self." There are natural results of every action, but aren't they just "results" without labelling them "good" or "bad". I have found that within every good deed, there is always some bad effect. And with every bad deed there is always some good effect. If we do not take the results on board and just accept "What is, is", then we do not see things as good or bad, but act from our own conscience that it "was the right (good) thing to do for me." Whatever the result doesnt change what was the right thing to do- even if it was the right thing to do "at that time". So, regarding organ transplants, I feel that if it is the right thing to do (for me) (at this time - this incarnation) then I should do it. If, on the other hand, I feel that it is not the right thing to do (for me) (at this time) then I should not do it. Our motives should be very clear, if they are, whatever the results I must live with it. Just waffling now, so will sign off Cass Bee Brown wrote: I have been following this discussion with much interest. There is also the dimension of the life atoms to be considered. I have been studying them for a long time now, trying to fit them into the scheme of things I understand it. As I understand the idea from my study, we all have our own life atoms that we attract back when we come into incarnation. It is them that attach to the pattern of the physical in the astral and begin the process of building up the atoms, cells etc that become the physical body. this also applies to all other planes of being as far as I understand. The life atoms we have are affected by our thoughts,deeds and all that we do during our life. They are referred to as little lives and I think they are monads beginning the long path of evolution. This means that what we think & do can help or hinder their progress as well as our own. Because they are our own, they are influenced by us and come and go in our various sheaths but are always attracted back to the place they feel most at home. The whole universe is life atoms that are building up what ever level they are on. I have learned much about them from G de Purucker who says that if we understood the work of the life atoms, we would also understand better the Brotherhood of all' concept. These life atoms answer the call of our re-incarnating ego and as they were ours in lives past, the inherited factor of physical problems and past karma comes with them. They are the very base upon which we exist so if organs, blood etc are exchanged then there is the life atoms as well as what has already been suggested about the astral body to consider. G de P talks about life atoms 'perigrenating' from us to others and back all the time and also when we die, he reckons that cremation releases them to go about their business until we return to use them again. They apparently will be part of other bodies if the magnetic attraction is strong enough to entice them. Otherwise they follow the circulations of the universe until they hear the call of their re-incarnating ego returning to another life. I understand more than I am able to express in a few words so I have shared what I can as I think this concept also adds weight to the question of organ transplants etc as foreign life atoms added to another ego's physical body may cause problems on a more subtle level. I think I would rather die earlier if that is my karma than perhaps get life atoms that are not compatible with my spiritual path and may cause a set back. I have realised that I am also responsible for the welfare of these life atoms that make up 'me' . I don't mind checking out this life-time as I hope the next time I come back, things may have improved a little. It is worth a study of what G de P has to say about these matters for anyone wanting more info. Kind regards Bee Dear Iain I also think that blood and organs are a wonderful gift. I think, but could be wrong, that when an organ is passed to a donor, it passes with the donor s "vibrations". e.g. Heart recipients learning that they have a "desire" for something that they did not when there own heart was in place. I would imagine that in most cases these vibrations are harmless as their gift is given in altruism. However, one has to be careful in receiving blood as the blood may be infected, e.g. Aids. Although the blood is screened there are still a few cases that show up even in this day,of people, after receiving blood, have received other things as well. I was also wondering that if an organ of a deceased person, slows down the process of disintegration of the donor's physical human body and its astral counterpart. And what effect this would have on the donor's "after life". I believe that Theosophy does not advocate the mummification of bodies for this reason. Regards Cass Iain wrote: As a 98 pint donor of blood /plasma/platlets I dont think my Karma has dimminished,As the donations are given annonomously I keep looking out for people wheather they are premature babies requiring a teaspoonful of blood too RTA or assault victims needing several pints I dont think it matters what ever Karma is there it will be diluted by the recipients own body fluids, I have not come accross any misfortunates who have taken on my characteristics .I do not see them wandering aimlessly in town,bewildered, bamboozled & etc, or to be found at parties asking " Do I come here often?!!!" I am of the opinion that blood/organs can be used to give or sustain life is the greatest gift that anyone can give, if you pass on some form of Karma it can only be good if that touch of spirit gives life to a body so that body shall flourish and develop, that it does not touch it withers and dies. The last Jehovah's Witness that strayed to my door was a young lad who enquired of me "Good morning sir, But do you lead the life of Christ?" I replied "Listen son, with my wife I don't even lead the life of a dog!!!" cheers Iain [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 18:31:28 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24605 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 02:31:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 02:31:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.79) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 02:31:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 82159 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Dec 2004 02:31:23 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ZhzoiXLm5easb86DAJhGGdmO+5Gv/jWHk9q4oe+RrQwm0kZOTSu1xxrIPQBnFe+EXEM7RNc9BKe+Ci/1o/DgXT6nFHwpIEcpT4Wb/g3qfP3ADZ0jkLWdvwEUhFYW9Q1dtaPwSODgpyDjP7vI9zAM2qvxPaOffoCQ3p7EIg1i6Kg= ; Message-ID: <20041221023123.82157.qmail@web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:31:23 PST Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:31:23 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <41C78143.000001.06981@HOME USER> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.79 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World transfusions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry, but forgot to add my source HAZRAT INAYAT KHAN - Spiritual Liberty, The Sufi Message, Volume V, page 210 Bee Brown wrote: I have been following this discussion with much interest. There is also the dimension of the life atoms to be considered. I have been studying them for a long time now, trying to fit them into the scheme of things I understand it. As I understand the idea from my study, we all have our own life atoms that we attract back when we come into incarnation. It is them that attach to the pattern of the physical in the astral and begin the process of building up the atoms, cells etc that become the physical body. this also applies to all other planes of being as far as I understand. The life atoms we have are affected by our thoughts,deeds and all that we do during our life. They are referred to as little lives and I think they are monads beginning the long path of evolution. This means that what we think & do can help or hinder their progress as well as our own. Because they are our own, they are influenced by us and come and go in our various sheaths but are always attracted back to the place they feel most at home. The whole universe is life atoms that are building up what ever level they are on. I have learned much about them from G de Purucker who says that if we understood the work of the life atoms, we would also understand better the Brotherhood of all' concept. These life atoms answer the call of our re-incarnating ego and as they were ours in lives past, the inherited factor of physical problems and past karma comes with them. They are the very base upon which we exist so if organs, blood etc are exchanged then there is the life atoms as well as what has already been suggested about the astral body to consider. G de P talks about life atoms 'perigrenating' from us to others and back all the time and also when we die, he reckons that cremation releases them to go about their business until we return to use them again. They apparently will be part of other bodies if the magnetic attraction is strong enough to entice them. Otherwise they follow the circulations of the universe until they hear the call of their re-incarnating ego returning to another life. I understand more than I am able to express in a few words so I have shared what I can as I think this concept also adds weight to the question of organ transplants etc as foreign life atoms added to another ego's physical body may cause problems on a more subtle level. I think I would rather die earlier if that is my karma than perhaps get life atoms that are not compatible with my spiritual path and may cause a set back. I have realised that I am also responsible for the welfare of these life atoms that make up 'me' . I don't mind checking out this life-time as I hope the next time I come back, things may have improved a little. It is worth a study of what G de P has to say about these matters for anyone wanting more info. Kind regards Bee Dear Iain I also think that blood and organs are a wonderful gift. I think, but could be wrong, that when an organ is passed to a donor, it passes with the donor s "vibrations". e.g. Heart recipients learning that they have a "desire" for something that they did not when there own heart was in place. I would imagine that in most cases these vibrations are harmless as their gift is given in altruism. However, one has to be careful in receiving blood as the blood may be infected, e.g. Aids. Although the blood is screened there are still a few cases that show up even in this day,of people, after receiving blood, have received other things as well. I was also wondering that if an organ of a deceased person, slows down the process of disintegration of the donor's physical human body and its astral counterpart. And what effect this would have on the donor's "after life". I believe that Theosophy does not advocate the mummification of bodies for this reason. Regards Cass Iain wrote: As a 98 pint donor of blood /plasma/platlets I dont think my Karma has dimminished,As the donations are given annonomously I keep looking out for people wheather they are premature babies requiring a teaspoonful of blood too RTA or assault victims needing several pints I dont think it matters what ever Karma is there it will be diluted by the recipients own body fluids, I have not come accross any misfortunates who have taken on my characteristics .I do not see them wandering aimlessly in town,bewildered, bamboozled & etc, or to be found at parties asking " Do I come here often?!!!" I am of the opinion that blood/organs can be used to give or sustain life is the greatest gift that anyone can give, if you pass on some form of Karma it can only be good if that touch of spirit gives life to a body so that body shall flourish and develop, that it does not touch it withers and dies. The last Jehovah's Witness that strayed to my door was a young lad who enquired of me "Good morning sir, But do you lead the life of Christ?" I replied "Listen son, with my wife I don't even lead the life of a dog!!!" cheers Iain [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From perrycoles@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 18:35:48 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: perrycoles@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62711 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 02:35:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 02:35:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 02:35:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2004 02:35:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.180] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2004 02:35:45 -0000 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 02:35:41 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001b01c4e69d$7c7b5d10$5080b3d1@DALLAS> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 22113 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.41 From: "Perry Coles" X-Originating-IP: 203.59.117.11 Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and reincarnation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=93736069 X-Yahoo-Profile: perrycoles Dear Dallas and All, If `Compassion is the Law of Laws' then surely this can be act of compassion which will have its own karmic effects based on motive as you've said. I have seen programs on people who have received organ donations and then have taken on some of the attributes of that person so what you say is defiantly not without merit and worthy of serious consideration. (there was an excellent program on Discovery channel on this) However for me I feel the act of giving of oneself for the sake of another is a selfless and compassionate act. While the taking of blood or an organ may have a `negative' effect on us to a greater or lesser degree I cant believe that the underling skandas we've acquired over perhaps hundreds of lifetimes will be totally over run by the life saving organ or especially blood transfusion. If we all of a sudden get a taste for rap music or MacDonald's, well so be it I am still the same person underneath. And have been given an extra opportunity to work though karma and hopefully be of service to others in some way. If we only look at a negative then that's all we'll see. Regards Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: > Dec. 20 2004 > > Re: Blood Transfusions, Organ donations, etc. > Transfusions and reincarnation > > Dear Perry: > > The application of technical medical processes is one thing. The motive > behind the application is another. > > The processes of asepsis in hospitals and clinics are well known but not > always applied meticulously. > > But who knows the effect of the moral contagions inherent in another's body > as a result of their life and karma? If and when this (a portion of > another's Karma) is injected or introduced into another living body, a > portion of the Karma comes along with the physical blood or organ There are > enough cases on record of the subsequent feelings and problems that have > been found to be consequent on the use of these processes. > > THEOSOPHY deals with laws and explanations and observations impartially. > > It shows the astral structures and the "pranic-life currents" underlie the > physical organs, blood and other structures. It says they impart their own > imprint in terms of life-memories and strengths (or weaknesses) wherever > they go. The physical blood or organ conveys them. They are also conveyed > by massage, and acupressure for instance, and above all by the inner and > powerful WILL of the doctor, nurse massager or practitioner. > > The blood or organs of another person, no matter how closely related, are > different from ours. > > THEOSOPHY does not recommend such exchanges. I know this seems to violate > current rules and attitudes. Next question is WHY ? > > How we make application is another thing altogether, as the moral aspect is > involved and Karma is formed there, based on motive always. > > Lets ask another question. If THEOSOPHY is right in this, what effect has > such an exchange on the karma of the two Egos involved -- for their future > in their present life, and in a future life upon reincarnation ? Is this > intimate relationship continued and desirable? What will be the karma of > those who facilitate or participate in these processes? Is that not to be > thought of? > > I know this all sound vague and fuzzy, but that is because the matter is yet > to be seized and made a part of investigation. Who believes in > reincarnation anyway? The Chinese systems of the meridians in the body, > whereon is built their system of acupuncture and acupressure; the Indian > Ayurvedic lore is well aware of bodily meridians and interlinks, and > practice here in the West of several kinds including Chiropractic is also > built on this knowledge. Who has made a systematic investigation of these > systems and ancient knowledge? > > No one "likes" fire to burn, or water to "drown." However, if misused they > do that impartially and without malice. > > None of us are yet able to determine the future of another, in this or a > future body.. If however we can use and apply the best techniques to save > life we do that with the motive of assistance. > > As for myself, (not a child) I have given strict instructions that no blood > transfusions are to be made in case I need them medically, nor are any > "heroic measures" to keep the body "alive" are to be used in case of coma or > other determination of the passing away of consciousness. I do this in > advance of any situation where I might be unable to assure medical or legal > authorities that it is my desire to let my body die if it cannot heal and > revive itself . But I am an adult, and, taking full responsibility, I can > decide for myself what I will accept or not as treatment for my body. > > It is quite ridiculous to fear death. We don't fear sleeping, do we? And > who is to say that our consciousness will return on awakening to the same > body? In case of continued wakefulness under forced sleep deprivation it > has been demonstrated that eventually these cause sleep or death. > > But to decide for a child -- that is a matter for parents to consider as > they have that duty, under Karma. I know this is an "open door." But again > THEOSOPHY does not dogmatize for specific cases It says in effect: Use > your common sense. Discover the Principles that are operative in all cases, > and apply them. > > In these days, to maintain a sure and fearless belief in reincarnation is > rare. But then, who has yet seen or discussed the matter with the REAL INNER > SPIRIT of any man or woman so far ? [ Or even in meditation with one's own > Inner SELF ? Only THEOSOPHY speaks of this, and indicates ways in which it > may be done.] > > No, our sole knowledge is that the INNER SPIRIT, our Real Self, requires > specifically a continuity in a single body; and its condition, before or > after the death of that present body, is quite unknown and unprovable so > far. Current beliefs state that the body and the indwelling SPIRIT are the > same thing. But are they? > > No, THEOSOPHY does not dogmatize, but it does offer the rules and facts of > life, as it know it too be. > > Dal > > > > Dallas > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@y...] > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:47 PM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed > > > > Hi Dallas, > > I hope your well , > > As with all things we as individuals need to try and use wise > discernment and certainly when it comes to ourselves our choices are > our own based on our knowledge and understanding of occult principles. > > But when it comes to children who lives could have been saved by a > blood transfusion, I simply find it outrageous that these children > have been allowed to die over a discission made by the parents because > of the blind following of dogma. > > I hope no theosophical student would ever follow any theosophical > statement blindly no matter who wrote it. > > Theosophical study is one as you know that takes lifetimes of work and > is not meant to be followed blindly but rather Self realised. > The information may or may not be correct we can never presume that it > is correct especially if a persons life other than our own hangs in > the balance. > What we choose for ourselves is another matter. > > Sorry to hear you've been in hospital hope alls ok! > > Regards > > Perry > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" > wrote: > > Dec 19 2004 > > > > Dear Perry: > > > > What you say is correct and reflects the current medical view. > > > > They know nothing of Occultism. > > > > Preserving life in an old, decrepit and almost useless body is > ridiculous in > > the face of individual immortality and reincarnation -- which are > spoofed at > > by present day materialism in medicine and even law. > > > > Let me put it this way: THEOSOPHY teaches a number of things that > > materialism currently does not know anything about. That does not make > > THEOSOPHY either dogmatic or wrong. > > > > But it ought to encourage deeper research. > > > > The application of knowledge is always left to the one who provides > it. The > > motive for providing it is the desideratum of Karma. > > > > In THEOSOPHY ethics and morals are everything. Science does not yet > accept > > those. > > > > So it is up to us to use or not use. > > > > Dallas > > > > ============================ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@y...] > > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 7:50 PM > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed > > > > > > > > Hello Dallas, > > I was a little concerned over your comments on blood transfusions and > > organ donations. > > As an ex JW I know the needless and pointless suffering and waste of > > life that can result from these type of dogmatic beliefs. > > > > The ethical dimension to this is to me not just a matter of our > > attachment to the body and/or the occult effects of having someone > > else's blood in our veins but if we are able to extend our life though > > either a blood transfusion or organ donation are we not duty bound to > > use whatever means we can to either save someone else's > > (especially!!!) life or our own as long as it is not at the cost of > > another's? > > > > The occult consequences of these procedures while perhaps coming at a > > price may be far outweighed by the good we can do while in incarnation. > > > > Perry > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" > > wrote: > > > Dec 18 2004 > > > > > > Dear Vera: > > > > > > You asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does > THEOSOPHY > > > offer anything. > > > > > > > > > THEOSOPHY does not recommend either of these for the reason that the > > astral > > > body and Karma attached to those are always incompatible and > > dangerous to > > > some extent. > > > > > > Physical medicine and the science of modern healing look on the > > human body > > > as a fairly adaptable series if interchangeable parts - which is > > not so. > > > > > > The Universe organizes through the astral body each person with > > their own > > > particular set of personalized and individual organs and substances. > > These > > > are always related to the individual's Karma. > > > > > > To some extent Medical science recognizes incompatibilities such as > > in blood > > > transfusions and the compatibility (by DNA testing) of proposed organ > > > transplants (heart, lungs, etc. ) and cures for cancer attacked > > parts of the > > > body. > > > > > > One of our problems is psychological: Most fear death. Those who > > have had > > > NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES ( NDE ) have lost such fear as they > realize that > > > they as SPIRITUAL SOULS survive physical death. Med. Sc. Tries to > > preserve > > > "life"-- at any cost, in the most shattered of physical bodies. > > > > > > THEOSOPHY states all bodies are replaceable under nature's rules and > > laws. > > > And while everyone grieves for the loss of a loved one, There is the > > > knowledge that under Karma we will all meet again, and love and > live and > > > work together, in the future. [ For example, we don't grieve when > > one goes > > > to sleep before another does? We know that we will wake up and > continue > > > life in a fresh day. It is so with the larger separation of > "death." ] > > > > > > I attach here an article written generally on this. > > > > > > > > > THE CURE OF DISEASES > > > > > > > > > MORTAL ills and the needs of the stomach rank next after the > instinct of > > > self-preservation among all the subjects which engage the attention > > of the > > > race. > > > If we do not go on living we cannot do the work we think there is to > > do; if > > > we remain hungry we will lose the power to work properly or to > > enjoy, and at > > > last come to the door of death. From bad or scanty food follows a > > train of > > > physical ills called generally disease. > > > > > > Disease reaches us also through too much food. So in every direction > > these > > > ills attack us; even when our feeding is correct and sufficient it > > is found > > > that we fall a prey because our Karma, settled by ourselves is some > > previous > > > life, ordains that we enter on this one handicapped by the > > hereditary taint > > > due to the wickedness or the errors of our fathers and mothers. > > > > > > And the records of science show that the taint in the blood or the > > lymph may > > > jump over many lives, attacking with virulence some generation > > distant very > > > far from the source. > > > > > > What wonder, then that the cure of disease is an all-absorbing > > subject with > > > every one! The Christian knows that it is decreed by Almighty God > > that He > > > will visit the sins of the fathers upon the children even to the > > third and > > > fourth generation, and the non-believer sees that by some power in > > nature > > > the penalty is felt even so far. > > > > > > All of this has given to the schools of mental and so-called > > "metaphysical" > > > healing a strong pull on the fears, the feelings, the wishes, and > > the bodies > > > of those to whom they address themselves, and especially in the United > > > States. > > > That there is more attention given to the subject in America seems > > true to > > > those who have been on the other side of the Atlantic and noticed > > how small > > > is the proportion of people there who know anything about the > > subject. But > > > in the United States in every town many can be found who know about > > these > > > schools and practice after their methods. Why it has more hold here > > can be > > > left to conjecture, as the point under consideration is why it has > > any hold > > > at all. It is something like patent medicine. > > > > > > Offer a cure to people for their many ills, and they will take it > > up; offer > > > it cheap, and they will use it; offer it as an easy method, and they > > will > > > rush for it under certain conditions. > > > > > > Metaphysical healing is easy for some because it declares, first, > > that no > > > money need be paid to doctors for medicine; second, that medical > > fluids and > > > drugs may be dispensed with; and third that it is easily learned and > > > practiced. The difficulties that arise out of the necessities of > > logic are > > > not present for those who never studied it, but are somewhat > potent with > > > those who reason correctly; - but that is not usual for the general > > run of > > > minds. > > > > > > They see certain effects and accept the assumed cause as the right > > one. But > > > many persons will not even investigate the system, because they > think it > > > requires them to postulate the non-existence of that which they see > > before > > > their eyes. > > > > > > The statements quoted from the monthly Christian Science in March > > PATH are > > > bars in the way of such minds. If they could be induced to just > try the > > > method offered for cure, belief might result, for effects indeed often > > > follow. > > > > > > But the popular mind is not in favor of "mind cure," and more > > prominence is > > > given in the daily papers to cases of death under it than to cures. > > And very > > > full reports always appear of a case such as one in March, where > "faith > > > curers," in order to restore life, went to praying over the dead > > body of one > > > of the members of a believing family. > > > > > > During a recent tour over this country from the Atlantic to the > > Pacific and > > > back, I had the opportunity of meeting hundreds of disciples of these > > > schools, and found in nearly all cases that they were not addicted > > to logic > > > but calmly ignored very plain propositions, satisfied that if > cures were > > > accomplished the cause claimed must be the right one, and almost > without > > > exception they denied the existence of evil or pain or suffering. > > > > > > There was a concurrence of testimony from all to show that the > > dominant idea > > > in their minds was the cure of their bodily ills and the > continuance of > > > health. The accent was not on the beauty of holiness or the value to > > them > > > and the community of a right moral system and right life, but on the > > cure of > > > their diseases. > > > > > > So the conclusion has been forced home that all these schools exist > > because > > > people desire to be well more than they desire to be good, although > > they do > > > not object to goodness if that shall bring wholeness. > > > > > > And, indeed, one does not have to be good to gain the benefit of the > > > teachings. It is enough to have confidence, to assert boldly that > > this does > > > not exist and that that has no power to hurt one. > > > I do not say the teachers of the "science" agree with me herein, but > > only > > > that whether you are good or bad the results will follow the firm > > practice > > > of the method enjoined, irrespective of the ideas of the teachers. > > > > > > For in pure mind-cure as compared with its congener "Christian > > Science," you > > > do not have to believe in Jesus and the gospels, yet the same > > results are > > > claimed, for Jesus taught that whatever you prayed for with faith, > > that you > > > should have. > > > > > > Scientific research discloses that the bodies of our race are > > infected with > > > taints that cause nearly all of our diseases, and school after > school of > > > medicine has tried and still tries to find the remedy that will > > dislodge the > > > foulness in the blood. > > > > > > This is scientific, since it seeks the real physical cause; > metaphysical > > > healing says it cures, but cannot prove that the cause is destroyed > > and not > > > merely palliated. > > > > > > That there is some room for doubt history shows us, for none will > > deny that > > > many pure thinking and acting pair have brought forth children who > > displayed > > > some taint derived from a distant ancestor. Evidently their pure > > individual > > > thoughts had no power over the great universal development of the > matter > > > used by those human bodies. > > > > > > Turning now to medicine we find the Italian Count Mattei > promulgating a > > > system of cure by the homeopathic use of subtle vegetable essences > > which may > > > well give pause to those who would make universal the curing by > faith or > > > mind alone. Some of his liquids will instantly stop a violent pain, > > restore > > > sight, give back hearing, and dissipate abnormal growths. His > > globules will > > > make a drunken man sober, and, given to the nurse who suckles a > > babe, will > > > cure the child who takes the milk. The drunkard and the child do not > > think > > > about or have faith in the remedies, yet they cure. Is it not > better to > > > restore health by physical means and leave the high teachings of the > > > healers, all taken from well know sources, for the benefit of our > moral > > > nature? > > > > > > And if Christian healers read these lines, should they not > remember that > > > when the prophet restored the widow's son he used physical means - > > his own > > > magnetism applied simultaneously to every member of the child's > > body, and > > > Jesus, when the woman who touched his garment was cured, lost a > > portion of > > > his vitality - not his thoughts - for he said "virtue" had gone > out from > > > him? > > > The Apostle also gave directions that if any were sick the others > should > > > assemble about the bed and anoint with oil, laying on their hands > > meanwhile: > > > simply physical therapeutics following a long line of ancient > precedent > > > dating back to Noah. > > > > > > Moses taught how to cure diseases and to disinfect places where > > contagion > > > lurked. It was not by using the high power of thought, but by > processes > > > deemed by him to be effectual, such as sprinkling blood of animals > > > slaughtered in peculiar circumstances. > > > > > > Without declaring for or against his methods, it is very certain > that he > > > supposed by these means subtle forces of a physical nature would be > > > liberated and brought to bear on the case in hand. > > > > > > The mass of testimony through the ages is against healing physical > > ills by > > > the use of the higher forces in nature, and the reason, once well > > known but > > > later on forgotten, is the one given in the article of January, > > 1892, - that > > > diseases are gross manifestations showing themselves on their way > > out of the > > > nature so that one may be purified. > > > > > > To arrest them though thought ignorantly directed is to throw them > > back into > > > their cause and replant them in their mental plane. > > > > > > This is the true ground of our objection to metaphysical healing > > practices, > > > which we distinguish from the assumptions and so-called philosophy > > on which > > > those methods are claimed to stand. For we distinctly urge that the > > effects > > > are not brought by any philosophical system whatever, but by the > > practical > > > though ignorant use of psycho-physiological processes. > > > > > > William Q. Judge Path, September, 1892 > > > > > > > > > ======================================== > > > > > > I hope this may be of some help, > > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > Dallas > > > > > > > > > =================== > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Vera Santos > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 3:30 PM > > > To: > > > Subject: [bn-study] help needed > > > > > > Your friend asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - > does > > > THEOSOPHY offer anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links From silva_cass@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 18:49:31 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17879 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 02:49:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 02:49:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.20) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 02:49:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n12.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2004 02:49:23 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.183] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2004 02:49:23 -0000 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 02:49:01 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2236 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.20 From: "silva_cass" X-Originating-IP: 211.28.163.14 Subject: CHRISTMAS JOY X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Wishing you all Christmas happiness and a wish that 2005 will bring=20 a thought renewal of a fantastic future for mankind and the planet=20 we all share. Warmest regards Cass A first grade teacher collected well known proverbs. She had twenty- five students in her class and she presented each child in her class=20 the first half of a proverb and asked them to come up with the=20 remainder of the proverb. It's hard to believe these were actually done by first graders.=20 Their insight may surprise you. While reading these keep in mind=20 that these are first graders (6-year-olds), because the last one is=20 classic! 1. Better to be safe than ........................punch a 5th grader. 2. Strike while the ..................................bug is close. 3. It's always darkest before ..................Daylight Saving Time. 4. Never underestimate the power of ....termites. 5. You can lead a horse to water but .....how? 6. Don't bite the hand that......................looks dirty. 7. No news is..........................................impossible. 8. A miss is as good as a ........................Mr. 9. You can't teach an old dog new ........math. 10. If you lie down with dogs, you'll .....stink in the morning. 11. Love all, trust ..................................me. 12. The pen is mightier than the ............pigs. 13. An idle mind is .................................the best way to=20 relax. 14. Where there's smoke there's =85........pollution. 15. Happy the bride who .......................gets all the presents. 16. A penny saved is .............................not much. 17. Two's company, three's ...................the Musketeers. 18. Don't put off till tomorrow what .....you put on to go to bed. 19. Laugh and the whole world laughs with you, cry and.......you=20 have to blow your nose. 20. There are none so blind as...............Stevie Wonder. 21. Children should be seen and not .....spanked or grounded. 22. If at first you don't succeed .............get new batteries. 23. You get out of something only what you............see in the=20 picture on the box. 24. When the blind leadeth the blind .....get out of the way. And the WINNER and last one! 25. Better late than..................................pregnant From silva_cass@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 19:34:49 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14237 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 03:34:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 03:34:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.79) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 03:34:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 91841 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Dec 2004 03:34:46 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=IlNg14dSq2OWjrSlcCGdHsYpILwDkHAjBWcBgXSu0zc2Li/Z5dGxse9d03ToNiyaA5/KkgP4229JQcxuooFG00p4x7rqJdxkaCYv9ZCGcNyBE2Y31BK4oae1PCvEoNBFK82yyuoWc4bkogc5r3lzGDC1Q8qJALxchKkAW7y1U/I= ; Message-ID: <20041221033446.91839.qmail@web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 19:34:46 PST Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 19:34:46 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.79 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and reincarnation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Perry I am starting to think that we have replaced the fear of hell with the fear= of bad karma? Cass Perry Coles wrote: Dear Dallas and All, If `Compassion is the Law of Laws' then surely this can be act of compassion which will have its own karmic effects based on motive as you've said. I have seen programs on people who have received organ donations and then have taken on some of the attributes of that person so what you say is defiantly not without merit and worthy of serious consideration. (there was an excellent program on Discovery channel on this) However for me I feel the act of giving of oneself for the sake of another is a selfless and compassionate act. While the taking of blood or an organ may have a `negative' effect on us to a greater or lesser degree I cant believe that the underling skandas we've acquired over perhaps hundreds of lifetimes will be totally over run by the life saving organ or especially blood transfusion. If we all of a sudden get a taste for rap music or MacDonald's, well so be it I am still the same person underneath. And have been given an extra opportunity to work though karma and hopefully be of service to others in some way. If we only look at a negative then that's all we'll see. Regards Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: > Dec. 20 2004 >=20 > Re: Blood Transfusions, Organ donations, etc. > Transfusions and reincarnation >=20 > Dear Perry: >=20 > The application of technical medical processes is one thing. The motive > behind the application is another. >=20 > The processes of asepsis in hospitals and clinics are well known but not > always applied meticulously.=20 >=20 > But who knows the effect of the moral contagions inherent in another's body > as a result of their life and karma? If and when this (a portion of > another's Karma) is injected or introduced into another living body, a > portion of the Karma comes along with the physical blood or organ=20 There are > enough cases on record of the subsequent feelings and problems that have > been found to be consequent on the use of these processes.=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHY deals with laws and explanations and observations impartially.=20 >=20 > It shows the astral structures and the "pranic-life currents"=20 underlie the > physical organs, blood and other structures. It says they impart their own > imprint in terms of life-memories and strengths (or weaknesses) wherever > they go. The physical blood or organ conveys them. They are also conveyed > by massage, and acupressure for instance, and above all by the inner and > powerful WILL of the doctor, nurse massager or practitioner.=20 >=20 > The blood or organs of another person, no matter how closely related, are > different from ours.=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHY does not recommend such exchanges. I know this seems to violate > current rules and attitudes. Next question is WHY ? >=20 > How we make application is another thing altogether, as the moral aspect is > involved and Karma is formed there, based on motive always. >=20 > Lets ask another question. If THEOSOPHY is right in this, what effect has > such an exchange on the karma of the two Egos involved -- for their future > in their present life, and in a future life upon reincarnation ? Is this > intimate relationship continued and desirable? What will be the karma of > those who facilitate or participate in these processes? Is that not to be > thought of?=20 >=20 > I know this all sound vague and fuzzy, but that is because the matter is yet > to be seized and made a part of investigation. Who believes in > reincarnation anyway? The Chinese systems of the meridians in the body, > whereon is built their system of acupuncture and acupressure; the Indian > Ayurvedic lore is well aware of bodily meridians and interlinks, and > practice here in the West of several kinds including Chiropractic is also > built on this knowledge. Who has made a systematic investigation of these > systems and ancient knowledge?=20 >=20 > No one "likes" fire to burn, or water to "drown." However, if misused they > do that impartially and without malice. >=20 > None of us are yet able to determine the future of another, in this or a > future body.. If however we can use and apply the best techniques to save > life we do that with the motive of assistance. >=20 > As for myself, (not a child) I have given strict instructions that no blood > transfusions are to be made in case I need them medically, nor are any > "heroic measures" to keep the body "alive" are to be used in case of coma or > other determination of the passing away of consciousness. I do this in > advance of any situation where I might be unable to assure medical or legal > authorities that it is my desire to let my body die if it cannot heal and > revive itself . But I am an adult, and, taking full responsibility, I can > decide for myself what I will accept or not as treatment for my body. >=20 > It is quite ridiculous to fear death. We don't fear sleeping, do we? And > who is to say that our consciousness will return on awakening to the same > body? In case of continued wakefulness under forced sleep deprivation it > has been demonstrated that eventually these cause sleep or death.=20 >=20 > But to decide for a child -- that is a matter for parents to consider as > they have that duty, under Karma. I know this is an "open door."=20 But again > THEOSOPHY does not dogmatize for specific cases It says in effect: Use > your common sense. Discover the Principles that are operative in all cases, > and apply them.=20 >=20 > In these days, to maintain a sure and fearless belief in reincarnation is > rare. But then, who has yet seen or discussed the matter with the REAL INNER > SPIRIT of any man or woman so far ? [ Or even in meditation with one's own > Inner SELF ? Only THEOSOPHY speaks of this, and indicates ways in which it > may be done.]=20 >=20 > No, our sole knowledge is that the INNER SPIRIT, our Real Self, requires > specifically a continuity in a single body; and its condition, before or > after the death of that present body, is quite unknown and unprovable so > far. Current beliefs state that the body and the indwelling SPIRIT are the > same thing. But are they?=20 >=20 > No, THEOSOPHY does not dogmatize, but it does offer the rules and facts of > life, as it know it too be. >=20 > Dal >=20 >=20 >=20 > Dallas >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@y...]=20 > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:47 PM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed >=20 >=20 >=20 > Hi Dallas, >=20 > I hope your well , >=20 > As with all things we as individuals need to try and use wise > discernment and certainly when it comes to ourselves our choices are > our own based on our knowledge and understanding of occult principles. >=20 > But when it comes to children who lives could have been saved by a > blood transfusion, I simply find it outrageous that these children > have been allowed to die over a discission made by the parents because > of the blind following of dogma. >=20 > I hope no theosophical student would ever follow any theosophical > statement blindly no matter who wrote it. >=20 > Theosophical study is one as you know that takes lifetimes of work and > is not meant to be followed blindly but rather Self realised. > The information may or may not be correct we can never presume that it > is correct especially if a persons life other than our own hangs in > the balance. > What we choose for ourselves is another matter. >=20 > Sorry to hear you've been in hospital hope alls ok! >=20 > Regards >=20 > Perry >=20 >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" > wrote: > > Dec 19 2004 > >=20 > > Dear Perry: > >=20 > > What you say is correct and reflects the current medical view. > >=20 > > They know nothing of Occultism. > >=20 > > Preserving life in an old, decrepit and almost useless body is > ridiculous in > > the face of individual immortality and reincarnation -- which are > spoofed at > > by present day materialism in medicine and even law. > >=20 > > Let me put it this way: THEOSOPHY teaches a number of things that > > materialism currently does not know anything about. That does not make > > THEOSOPHY either dogmatic or wrong.=20 > >=20 > > But it ought to encourage deeper research. > >=20 > > The application of knowledge is always left to the one who provides > it. The > > motive for providing it is the desideratum of Karma. > >=20 > > In THEOSOPHY ethics and morals are everything. Science does not yet > accept > > those.=20 > >=20 > > So it is up to us to use or not use. > >=20 > > Dallas > >=20 > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >=20 > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@y...]=20 > > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 7:50 PM > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Hello Dallas, > > I was a little concerned over your comments on blood transfusions and > > organ donations. > > As an ex JW I know the needless and pointless suffering and waste of > > life that can result from these type of dogmatic beliefs. > >=20 > > The ethical dimension to this is to me not just a matter of our > > attachment to the body and/or the occult effects of having someone > > else's blood in our veins but if we are able to extend our life though > > either a blood transfusion or organ donation are we not duty bound to > > use whatever means we can to either save someone else's > > (especially!!!) life or our own as long as it is not at the cost of > > another's? > >=20 > > The occult consequences of these procedures while perhaps coming at a > > price may be far outweighed by the good we can do while in incarnation. > >=20 > > Perry > >=20 > >=20 > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" > > wrote: > > > Dec 18 2004 > > >=20 > > > Dear Vera: > > >=20 > > > You asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does > THEOSOPHY > > > offer anything. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > THEOSOPHY does not recommend either of these for the reason that the > > astral > > > body and Karma attached to those are always incompatible and > > dangerous to > > > some extent.=20 > > >=20 > > > Physical medicine and the science of modern healing look on the > > human body > > > as a fairly adaptable series if interchangeable parts - which is > > not so. > > >=20 > > > The Universe organizes through the astral body each person with > > their own > > > particular set of personalized and individual organs and substances. > > These > > > are always related to the individual's Karma.=20 > > >=20 > > > To some extent Medical science recognizes incompatibilities such as > > in blood > > > transfusions and the compatibility (by DNA testing) of proposed organ > > > transplants (heart, lungs, etc. ) and cures for cancer attacked > > parts of the > > > body.=20 > > >=20 > > > One of our problems is psychological: Most fear death. Those who > > have had > > > NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES ( NDE ) have lost such fear as they > realize that > > > they as SPIRITUAL SOULS survive physical death. Med. Sc. Tries to > > preserve > > > "life"-- at any cost, in the most shattered of physical bodies. > > >=20 > > > THEOSOPHY states all bodies are replaceable under nature's rules and > > laws. > > > And while everyone grieves for the loss of a loved one, There is the > > > knowledge that under Karma we will all meet again, and love and > live and > > > work together, in the future. [ For example, we don't grieve when > > one goes > > > to sleep before another does? We know that we will wake up and > continue > > > life in a fresh day. It is so with the larger separation of > "death." ] > > >=20 > > > I attach here an article written generally on this.=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > THE CURE OF DISEASES > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > MORTAL ills and the needs of the stomach rank next after the > instinct of > > > self-preservation among all the subjects which engage the attention > > of the > > > race.=20 > > > If we do not go on living we cannot do the work we think there is to > > do; if > > > we remain hungry we will lose the power to work properly or to > > enjoy, and at > > > last come to the door of death. From bad or scanty food follows a > > train of > > > physical ills called generally disease.=20 > > >=20 > > > Disease reaches us also through too much food. So in every direction > > these > > > ills attack us; even when our feeding is correct and sufficient it > > is found > > > that we fall a prey because our Karma, settled by ourselves is some > > previous > > > life, ordains that we enter on this one handicapped by the > > hereditary taint > > > due to the wickedness or the errors of our fathers and mothers.=20 > > >=20 > > > And the records of science show that the taint in the blood or the > > lymph may > > > jump over many lives, attacking with virulence some generation > > distant very > > > far from the source.=20 > > >=20 > > > What wonder, then that the cure of disease is an all-absorbing > > subject with > > > every one! The Christian knows that it is decreed by Almighty God > > that He > > > will visit the sins of the fathers upon the children even to the > > third and > > > fourth generation, and the non-believer sees that by some power in > > nature > > > the penalty is felt even so far. > > >=20 > > > All of this has given to the schools of mental and so-called > > "metaphysical" > > > healing a strong pull on the fears, the feelings, the wishes, and > > the bodies > > > of those to whom they address themselves, and especially in the United > > > States.=20 > > > That there is more attention given to the subject in America seems > > true to > > > those who have been on the other side of the Atlantic and noticed > > how small > > > is the proportion of people there who know anything about the > > subject. But > > > in the United States in every town many can be found who know about > > these > > > schools and practice after their methods. Why it has more hold here > > can be > > > left to conjecture, as the point under consideration is why it has > > any hold > > > at all. It is something like patent medicine.=20 > > >=20 > > > Offer a cure to people for their many ills, and they will take it > > up; offer > > > it cheap, and they will use it; offer it as an easy method, and they > > will > > > rush for it under certain conditions.=20 > > >=20 > > > Metaphysical healing is easy for some because it declares, first, > > that no > > > money need be paid to doctors for medicine; second, that medical > > fluids and > > > drugs may be dispensed with; and third that it is easily learned and > > > practiced. The difficulties that arise out of the necessities of > > logic are > > > not present for those who never studied it, but are somewhat > potent with > > > those who reason correctly; - but that is not usual for the general > > run of > > > minds.=20 > > >=20 > > > They see certain effects and accept the assumed cause as the right > > one. But > > > many persons will not even investigate the system, because they > think it > > > requires them to postulate the non-existence of that which they see > > before > > > their eyes.=20 > > >=20 > > > The statements quoted from the monthly Christian Science in March > > PATH are > > > bars in the way of such minds. If they could be induced to just > try the > > > method offered for cure, belief might result, for effects indeed often > > > follow.=20 > > >=20 > > > But the popular mind is not in favor of "mind cure," and more > > prominence is > > > given in the daily papers to cases of death under it than to cures. > > And very > > > full reports always appear of a case such as one in March, where > "faith > > > curers," in order to restore life, went to praying over the dead > > body of one > > > of the members of a believing family. > > >=20 > > > During a recent tour over this country from the Atlantic to the > > Pacific and > > > back, I had the opportunity of meeting hundreds of disciples of these > > > schools, and found in nearly all cases that they were not addicted > > to logic > > > but calmly ignored very plain propositions, satisfied that if > cures were > > > accomplished the cause claimed must be the right one, and almost > without > > > exception they denied the existence of evil or pain or suffering.=20 > > >=20 > > > There was a concurrence of testimony from all to show that the > > dominant idea > > > in their minds was the cure of their bodily ills and the > continuance of > > > health. The accent was not on the beauty of holiness or the value to > > them > > > and the community of a right moral system and right life, but on the > > cure of > > > their diseases.=20 > > >=20 > > > So the conclusion has been forced home that all these schools exist > > because > > > people desire to be well more than they desire to be good, although > > they do > > > not object to goodness if that shall bring wholeness. > > >=20 > > > And, indeed, one does not have to be good to gain the benefit of the > > > teachings. It is enough to have confidence, to assert boldly that > > this does > > > not exist and that that has no power to hurt one.=20 > > > I do not say the teachers of the "science" agree with me herein, but > > only > > > that whether you are good or bad the results will follow the firm > > practice > > > of the method enjoined, irrespective of the ideas of the teachers. > > >=20 > > > For in pure mind-cure as compared with its congener "Christian > > Science," you > > > do not have to believe in Jesus and the gospels, yet the same > > results are > > > claimed, for Jesus taught that whatever you prayed for with faith, > > that you > > > should have. > > >=20 > > > Scientific research discloses that the bodies of our race are > > infected with > > > taints that cause nearly all of our diseases, and school after > school of > > > medicine has tried and still tries to find the remedy that will > > dislodge the > > > foulness in the blood.=20 > > >=20 > > > This is scientific, since it seeks the real physical cause; > metaphysical > > > healing says it cures, but cannot prove that the cause is destroyed > > and not > > > merely palliated.=20 > > >=20 > > > That there is some room for doubt history shows us, for none will > > deny that > > > many pure thinking and acting pair have brought forth children who > > displayed > > > some taint derived from a distant ancestor. Evidently their pure > > individual > > > thoughts had no power over the great universal development of the > matter > > > used by those human bodies. > > >=20 > > > Turning now to medicine we find the Italian Count Mattei > promulgating a > > > system of cure by the homeopathic use of subtle vegetable essences > > which may > > > well give pause to those who would make universal the curing by > faith or > > > mind alone. Some of his liquids will instantly stop a violent pain, > > restore > > > sight, give back hearing, and dissipate abnormal growths. His > > globules will > > > make a drunken man sober, and, given to the nurse who suckles a > > babe, will > > > cure the child who takes the milk. The drunkard and the child do not > > think > > > about or have faith in the remedies, yet they cure. Is it not > better to > > > restore health by physical means and leave the high teachings of the > > > healers, all taken from well know sources, for the benefit of our > moral > > > nature?=20 > > >=20 > > > And if Christian healers read these lines, should they not > remember that > > > when the prophet restored the widow's son he used physical means - > > his own > > > magnetism applied simultaneously to every member of the child's > > body, and > > > Jesus, when the woman who touched his garment was cured, lost a > > portion of > > > his vitality - not his thoughts - for he said "virtue" had gone > out from > > > him?=20 > > > The Apostle also gave directions that if any were sick the others > should > > > assemble about the bed and anoint with oil, laying on their hands > > meanwhile: > > > simply physical therapeutics following a long line of ancient > precedent > > > dating back to Noah.=20 > > >=20 > > > Moses taught how to cure diseases and to disinfect places where > > contagion > > > lurked. It was not by using the high power of thought, but by > processes > > > deemed by him to be effectual, such as sprinkling blood of animals > > > slaughtered in peculiar circumstances.=20 > > >=20 > > > Without declaring for or against his methods, it is very certain =3D=3D=3D message truncated =3D=3D=3D =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! =96 Try it today!=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bbbrown@xtra.co.nz Mon Dec 20 20:09:04 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bbbrown@xtra.co.nz X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59030 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 04:09:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 04:09:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mta205-rme.xtra.co.nz) (210.86.15.187) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 04:09:03 -0000 Received: from pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([210.86.15.240]) by mta205-rme.xtra.co.nz with ESMTP id <20041221040903.QPDJ18126.mta205-rme.xtra.co.nz@pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz> for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:09:03 +1300 Received: from home-user ([222.152.1.147]) by pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20041221040902.EYPA16943.pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz@home-user> for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:09:02 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <41C7A1A7.000006.06981@HOME USER> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:08:07 +1300 (New Zealand Daylight Time) X-Mailer: IncrediMail (3001579) References: <20041221022516.8769.qmail@web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com> To: X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-Priority: 3 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 210.86.15.187 From: "Bee Brown" Subject: Re: Theos-World transfusions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=79246339 X-Yahoo-Profile: ladyb_nz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Cass. Thank you for your interesting email. I think 'downunder' is quite well represented here LOL I mostly lurk about reading but once in a long while I feel the urge to say something. I think I have given up 'bad' or 'good' as descriptions of actions, deeds etc as I can see that effects must follow sooner or later from actions we are attached to that bring disharmony in one way or another. I understand that motive is the deciding factor as to how the outcome can be thought of as harmony or disharmony. Well meaning motive without wisdom can bring disharmony just as much as wishing harm to another causes disharmony. I have also learned from my study that Nature is impersonal and it is our interpretation that puts labels on effects caused. If I have created disharmony among my life atoms in past lives, I can expect at some time to reap the effects which might be illness or any other misfortune in later lives. I have caused upset to areas of my inner self and when I reincarnate, life atoms I may not want are attracted to the vibration I have created of a lesser kind than I would wish in this life. It is a most interesting concept. I understand that conscience is our inner spiritual self and the more one can subdue the human ego, the more this spiritual self can be heard within. Regards Bee Dear Bee Nice to have someone else from "downunder" on board. I read your piece of GdP, and you have succinctly put his interpretations together in terms of common sense understanding. Instead of looking at it as good or bad karma (punishment or reward) The Sufi teaching says that "because our tendency is towards idealization that causes us to name as punishment and reward what is simply the outcome of our actions. Good cannot be the outcome of evil, neither can evil be the outcome of good. If we look down deeper within ourselves, we shall find that our deeds have a great effect on our inner being, and react and manifest on the surface as (what we see as) good or bad results. This explains right and wrong, good and evil. In other words, our body, mind, and heart, the factor of feelings, react on each other. If the body controls the mind, or the mind the feelings, the result is bad, for it is the lower plane having a control over the highter plane of existence. On the other hand, when the heart controls the mind, and the mind, the body, the result can only be good, as the higher self then has control over the lower self." There are natural results of every action, but aren't they just "results" without labelling them "good" or "bad". I have found that within every good deed, there is always some bad effect. And with every bad deed there is always some good effect. If we do not take the results on board and just accept "What is, is", then we do not see things as good or bad, but act from our own conscience that it "was the right (good) thing to do for me." Whatever the result doesnt change what was the right thing to do- even if it was the right thing to do "at that time". So, regarding organ transplants, I feel that if it is the right thing to do (for me) (at this time - this incarnation) then I should do it. If, on the other hand, I feel that it is not the right thing to do (for me) (at this time) then I should not do it. Our motives should be very clear, if they are, whatever the results I must live with it. Just waffling now, so will sign off Cass Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Dec 20 20:25:39 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86137 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 04:25:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 04:25:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m14.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.204) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 04:25:38 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.e5.902ed99 (4206) for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 23:25:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 23:25:30 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.138.204 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World transfusions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/20/04 4:59:35 PM Central Standard Time, ibse03888@blueyonder.co.uk writes: << I am of the opinion that blood/organs can be used to give or sustain life is the greatest gift that anyone can give, if you pass on some form of Karma it can only be good if that touch of spirit gives life to a body so that body shall flourish and develop, that it does not touch it withers and dies. >> the notion that one gets the karma of another (charitably assuming that karma would even exist) by a blood transfusion is such utter nonsense as to be beyond laughable. That would be the same as saying that I get the karma of a cow every time I take my insulin. When I was hospitalized a couple of years ago I received a number of blood transfusions and suffered no ill effects, either material or spiritual from them and just because the Jehovah's Witnesses believe such foolishness is no reason for any rational being to believe along with them. Chuck the Heretic From silva_cass@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 20:29:23 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 46762 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 04:29:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 04:29:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.75) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 04:29:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 99080 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Dec 2004 04:29:22 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=vfw5tUwXE8wlmY9aQ2tBas3EnCffZp3LYLwsNH2uYnIQF8yjZ5G68aswtRjYhrpqwC+Ft8n93Meg6q9Qzqgq9JIDN0qmKOu7GzLCKA7FMqeYKFxPsROQt7bTX01EpRVoFEw3wnx/lU8vT3ra8GtgxRqv03g7N7cGoHqfCuzGINQ= ; Message-ID: <20041221042922.99078.qmail@web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 20:29:22 PST Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 20:29:22 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.75 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World transfusions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Only joking. Am I speaking to Bart or Chuck? Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 12/20/04 4:59:35 PM Central Standard Time, ibse03888@blueyonder.co.uk writes: << I am of the opinion that blood/organs can be used to give or sustain life is the greatest gift that anyone can give, if you pass on some form of Karma it can only be good if that touch of spirit gives life to a body so that body shall flourish and develop, that it does not touch it withers and dies. >> the notion that one gets the karma of another (charitably assuming that karma would even exist) by a blood transfusion is such utter nonsense as to be beyond laughable. That would be the same as saying that I get the karma of a cow every time I take my insulin. When I was hospitalized a couple of years ago I received a number of blood transfusions and suffered no ill effects, either material or spiritual from them and just because the Jehovah's Witnesses believe such foolishness is no reason for any rational being to believe along with them. Chuck the Heretic Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 20:30:51 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 50728 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 04:30:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 04:30:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 04:30:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 22537 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Dec 2004 04:30:33 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ypEBANLNdDybYuEmM8n/aYGL5iom/muV4sk0d3OLL6UuUZ4j2+ngt8BaZPcKG2R0wCM0LST56F/VRu8J0g9LGkROoW2wo0+7/glEkmoJtTvwwGxfL6eE4S7zMUNC9BJf/zr+jsWeIpzxPpxkGa6W50ekgZdq4mX8hMyacUXdTck= ; Message-ID: <20041221043032.22535.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 20:30:32 PST Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 20:30:32 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.74 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World transfusions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops, Bart, Chuck or Daisy? Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 12/20/04 4:59:35 PM Central Standard Time, ibse03888@blueyonder.co.uk writes: << I am of the opinion that blood/organs can be used to give or sustain life is the greatest gift that anyone can give, if you pass on some form of Karma it can only be good if that touch of spirit gives life to a body so that body shall flourish and develop, that it does not touch it withers and dies. >> the notion that one gets the karma of another (charitably assuming that karma would even exist) by a blood transfusion is such utter nonsense as to be beyond laughable. That would be the same as saying that I get the karma of a cow every time I take my insulin. When I was hospitalized a couple of years ago I received a number of blood transfusions and suffered no ill effects, either material or spiritual from them and just because the Jehovah's Witnesses believe such foolishness is no reason for any rational being to believe along with them. Chuck the Heretic Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 20 21:28:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67763 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 05:28:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 05:28:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 05:28:34 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CgcZW-00083H-28 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:28:34 -0500 Message-ID: <41C7B488.5040900@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:28:40 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041221042922.99078.qmail@web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041221042922.99078.qmail@web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba97c1847ea5fb2bc87dae999d2365a140c6b317bf5bc479bb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.67 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World transfusions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Cass Silva wrote: > Only joking. Am I speaking to Bart or Chuck? Probably. From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Dec 21 01:09:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65261 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 09:09:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 09:09:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m17.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.207) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 09:09:35 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.53.1d56bf38 (18555); Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:09:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <53.1d56bf38.2ef94242@aol.com> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:09:22 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.138.207 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Science and Theosophy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Reference is made to the following article which postulates a new scientific unified field theory of cosmogenesis that appears to be getting close to occult or theosophical metaphysics. My comments are below. http://www.neuronet.pitt.edu/~meno/physics/physics.html ===================================== I read the article and it makes logical (if not scientific or metaphysical :-) sense. But there is still a hole that isn't accounted for -- since the writer doesn't say what the "Gyron" is made of, and accepts Newton's premise that it was "created" by God. It also leaves open the connection between consciousness (awareness, will) and matter as well as between mind and brain (the binding problem) -- that any completely true "Theory of Everything" (TOE) must take into consideration. So, essentially, this theory appears to have no real or consistent validity with respect to the fundamental principles or to the "dependently arisen" metaphysics of Buddhism or theosophy -- which, as my theory of ABC indicates, the "causeless cause" of all manifestation is simply the "spinergy" force (The abstract motion or angular momentum of the absolute zero point that is turning, i.e., "spinning" on itself at infinite force or angular momenta on an infinite number of axes)... That, on analysis (since the zero-point has no dimensionality in itself) -- is nowhere and everywhere, and both empty (of form) and full (of abstract motion or primal force). Therefore, there cannot be any "empty" space or "absolute vacuum" between those points and the fields surrounding them (that emanate and involve from the primal "laya" point). The author apparently assumes that the space between the Gyrons (considered as a "fundamental particle") is empty -- which cannot be true according to both the logic above as well as the fundamental principles, or as my universal field theory of emanation and fractal involution indicates, geometrically, that "absolute" space is infinitely divisible. If we can intuitively see that the (non linear) force emanates from the zero-laya point into non metric dimensional (zero diameter) lines of linear motional energy (substance or mass) that involves cyclically and fractally to form the woven circumferences of all the fields of matter starting with the initial triune universal monad -- which descends internally, from near infinite frequency-energy phases to near zero (our metric space time continuum) -- we will understand that the infinite bubbles (globes) within bubbles within bubbles, ad infinitum, is the manner in which the primal universe expands and contracts simultaneously and steps down fractally through the seven fold fields of consciousness that, by analogy and correspondence (as above, so below), surround and interpenetrate (in coadunation but not in consubstantiality) every particle, or form in both the metaphysical (3 higher fields) and the physical (4 lower fields) universe. Since time is integrally related to these fields, considered as a vector of duration tied intimately to the 3-vectors of globular dimensionality of metric space, we might, as Einstein did, presume we live (as physical beings) in a fundamentally 4-dimensional space-time continuum. Although, in light of the higher order (monadic) fields, which must include mind and memory fields, this 4-dimensional relationship would also hold in those realms... With, however, the time constants, related to their varying frequency phase orders, differing between each plane. (Actually, time is not a directional vector of any global space, but simple a measure of change of the vibrational patterns on the surfaces of the fields.) Therefore, in this view, time has only one direction -- from past to future. The primal "atom" then, is that moving zero-point of infinite energy that weaves the fields that gradually gains greater density, and lower energy, as they descend to our metric or physical space time continuum. See my symbolic global involutional diagrams that more or less consolidate both Eastern and Western scientific philosophies, at: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/invlutionflddiagnotate.gif http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Invlutionfldmirror2.gif Therefore, the moving (and still spinning) zero-points of our metric space-time (spinning at a lower "phase" of energy/frequency than those of the astral space-time) can be considered as somewhat equivalent to the "Gyron," It is these spinning points that, starting on the highest order spiritual consciousness level, successively form the more and more substantial force rays that weave the membranes of the surfaces of all the descending, or successively involved fields of consciousness. It is the fundamental vibrations on these surfaces woven out of dual spiraling lines of positive and negative energy that, in turn, carry the holographic vibratory patterns between them (analogous to the DNA ladder) that are the encoded roots of all the "atoms" or fundamental particles on each of these levels. i.e.; It is the vibrational frequency/ energy phase order differences of such strings that become the different particles on all of these space-time continuums -- which we might broadly separate into the four coadunate but not consubstantial worlds of (1) physical forms, (2) astral forms, (3) mental forms and (4) spiritual forms... All, connected ("entangled") together through their common origin from the primal zero-point spinergy that is everywhere. Thus, accounting for the non locality of consciousness, as well as all experiential psychic phenomena and psychic powers expressed or latent in man. Thus, the mathematical geometry of all these interpenetrating and enfolded fields within fields, etc. (from the limited objective-scientific point of view) would be much the same as in superstring/M-brane theories, and also entirely consistent with the merger of both relativity and quantum theories with M theory (all possibly consolidated into a new paradigm by some new Aether physical model) into a Unified Field Theory of Everything. (I'm not a mathematician and can only describe this ontology from an intuitive, imaginative, as well as a studied topological geometric and coenergetic electrical point of view.) As Einstein said, "I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." In this metaphysical view, taken scientifically, we must assume that the Ether or Aether of science is the lowest order frequency phase spectrum of the Astral field (part of the 6, 10 or more hyperspace fields postulated by string theory, or the 14 primal fields of ABC theory) that are hidden (in the Planck distance) between the quantum particles of matter on the lower physical plane (our visible universe). Thus the speed of light is only limited to "C" in our metric space-time. In the higher order fields, this velocity increases proportional to the increase in their fundamental frequency phase order. In the lower Astral or etheric realm, that speed would probably be C^2 -- since its frequency-energy phase order is in the next higher octave above the physical plane. Thus, the light we see in our mind appears instantaneous to our consciousness. Such higher fields, then, being closer to the primal spiritual field, and thus closer to the primal laya point (that is immovable) would account for inertia -- since the lower order fields would have to move through the higher order fields which would, through frictional resistance, produce "drag" -- similar to the way denser material moves through air or water. This also accounts for Einstein's observation that both time and physical dimension (in the direction of motion) contract as a physical mass approaches the speed of light. Why? Because such mass (including the photon itself) approaches the static zero-point between the lower physical field and the astral field, or Aether -- where an energy-mass phase change must occur. It's the etheric drag, then, that prevents physical light from exceeding "C" velocity, and why light disappears when it approaches the event horizon of a black hole of near infinite mass. We might also consider that the photon is the first particle expressed when the original spiral Superstring involves into the physical matter on this plane. The "singularity" at the center of a black hole would be that primal zero (laya) point instant (which is everywhere, remember) that generated this entire universe (and, possibly, an infinite number of other universes). This might mean that the zero points within such a mass as a fundamental particle (e.g., photon, electron, proton, etc.) increase their spinergy on this plane to such a degree as to go through a phase change (the next higher octave) and transform back to the zero-point spinergy of the higher plane (related to the higher frequency-energy-time phase order of that plane). This new spinergy-mass, due to such contraction, becomes so small that it is below the threshold of our senses or our physical instruments and, thus, invisible or undetectable. As said in the article, we can only see their "splashes in the Ether," when we bust a particle into smaller parts with a cyclotron. So, I think, except for the metaphor of fundamental spin, this "Gyron" (created by God) theory is somewhat at odds with the true reality. :-) But, it does show us that science, too, has a long way to go to come up with a Unified Field Theory of Everything... That, when they do find it, must include "consciousness" in their equations... And, even then, they'll have to admit that consciousness, and particularly awareness and will, can only be a priori functions of the zero-point itself -- which, besides being ineffable, is outside of all metric space-time and non metric hyperspace-time -- yet intimately connected to them in all their aspects or levels of being... With absolute unity, therefore, being the fundamental basis of all reality -- governed by universal laws of cycles, symmetry, conservation, electricity, etc. Please note that the Aether (Ether) or Astral field -- which light must travel through in the vacuum of space (that science sees as being full of "perturbations of 'zero-point energy'" coming in and out of existence) is NOT the Akasha -- which is the initial "primordial field" related to the zero-point spinergy... Out of which, prior to their breaking of symmetry after initial inflation (as current science sees it), all the 7 fold "substantial" fields of consciousness fractally involve and descend from spiritual to physical matter. Best wishes, Leon Maurer From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Dec 21 01:56:55 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 32418 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 09:56:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 09:56:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d23.mx.aol.com) (205.188.139.137) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 09:56:54 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1e1.31e57aee (18555); Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:56:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1e1.31e57aee.2ef94d5e@aol.com> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:56:46 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.139.137 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: fractal evolution X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Dear Cass, The notes on my ABC theory are at: http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics Some of the reference illustrations are listed below in my previous commentary appended here. I would be happy to answer any questions you may have about them, or hear any comments or suggestions you might make. Best wishes, Leon In a message dated 12/14/04 9:12:33 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: >Dear Leon >I am very happy for you to share my ruminations with anyone. Your reply >is fascinating and I am now going to print and read it quietly, in the >sun, on my back verandah. Could you please resend me your website on your >ABC Theory so that I can look at it in this new light. >Many thanks >Cass > LeonMaurer@aol.com wrote: Dear Cass, Your observations about the relationship that String theory has to theosophy is right on the nose. For a "non scientist," I admire your perceptive understanding and integration of such erudite subjects. However, my scientific juices have been stimulated long before string theories came along -- ever since I first read and understood Einstein's theory of relativity when I was 12 years old, and my father, who was an alchemist, professional chemist, and 33rd degree Mason, explained it to me. :-) As it is, I've been studying String theory, and have read Greene's book as well as all the other literature referring to Superstring/M-brane theories (now M theory) -- since I first came up with the ABC theory sometime in the late 60's -- before any scientist published anything about it. The development of the ABC theory was (besides what "mysteries" my dad introduced me to when very young) the culmination of over 20 years of study of all the ancient mystical and occult literature referenced in the SD, as well as later writers, from Leadbeater, to Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Crowley, among many others -- coupled with a serious study of relativity and quantum theories since the late 30's (along with a fortunate encounter, and over five years of direct teaching during the late 70s and early 80s, from an "Adept" Tibetan Lama who was also a nuclear physicist that, before his initiation, worked on the A-bomb). I was also inspired when I realized in the 70s that Einstein got his idea of E=mc^2 directly from the Secret Doctrine (which, I later found, was given him by Robert Millikan when he was in his late teens or early twenties). See: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html If you examine what I've written on the ABC theory (check the Theos-World or theos-talk, and Brain-Mind archives, as well as my ABC website) you'll see that ABC -- which is identical to the metaphysics hidden in the Secret Doctrine (under metaphors and symbols, as well as "in and around the words and between the lines" as HPB advised her "intuitive students' to study her writing) -- exactly conforms with the latest developments in M-theory -- which, incidentally, is the spin-off of Superstring theory that merges all the former string theories (of which there were five). In the ABC theory, if you follow the origin of the universal fields out of the zero-point surrounded by its "spinergy" and examine the meditations on it. (See: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html) -- you will understand that the continuous lines of primal force that form the entire set of fractally involved fields or "globes," are the "Superstrings" (which vary in frequency-energy from globe to globe) -- while the woven surfaces of the globes are the "M(em)branes." Actually, the scientists have much of it wrong -- since they still refuse to consider consciousness as the function of the zero-point itself, or that the "multiple" or "parallel" universes that can form from the infinite (yet non-dimensional, thus abstract) polar directions of their circling spinergy (abstract motion) -- must follow the same fundamental laws of physics based on the initial cyclic periodicity of the "spinergy" around each pole. :-) Their trouble is that they rely on their contrived mathematics to explain the "images" of their "hyperspace" fields -- but make their interpretations of the apparent separation between the different Membranes based on a false presumption that consciousness is caused by (or an epiphenomena of) the physical universe, and that there is no connection between the zero-points -- that, actually, are everywhere. Didn't the ancient mystic philosophers and theosophy say, "The center of the universe is everywhere and its circumference nowhere?" And, isn't it obvious that all the Superstrings of force around each globe are connected to each other through their zero-point centers -- which, wherever they are located in this 3-D physical space-time continuum, are also at the center of the universe, and therefore, must be in direct communion with the Absolute primal source itself? The symbolic (continuous, spiral vortex 2-D fractal diagram) of these multidimensional fields within fields, etc., enables one to clearly visualize this. See: http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Invlutionfldmirror2.gif My interconnected geometric-topological view (without relying on complex multidimensional mathematical symbology) of the inner fractal nature of the fields, therefore, is much closer to the actual reality. BTW, this is the "Super-symmetry" as well as the basis of the "graviton" they are looking for (in all the wrong places :-). In addition, ABC goes much further, since it not only synthesizes relativity and quantum theories, but also explains all psychic phenomena, as well as the genetic biology and physiology of all life forms -- besides completely vindicating all theosophical teachings about the seven fold nature of our being, as well as the basis of both karma and reincarnation -- as irrevocable facts of nature. If you can imagine these "Superstrings" as dual (positive and negative) lines of force that wind spirally (like a DNA molecule) as they weave (actually, knit) the globes, you can understand that their cyclic vibrations -- whose peaks meet between them (like the "bases" between the spiral strings of the DNA) -- are the fundamental "strings" that form the basis of all the physical "elements" or fundamental particles (such as electrons, photons, quarks, sub quarks, etc. -- ad infinitum). Since all the descending fields are "coadunate but not consubstantial," these vibrational patterns are replicated (inductively and resonantly) on each fractal level (although at different phase orders of frequency-energy spectrums). Thus, we can understand how the holographic patterns of "forms" on the astral body level determines the forms of the physical body, ("as above, so below")... And, why the vibrational memory of all the actions and forms on all the multidimensional globes ends up in the "spinergy" -- that forms the basis of the next universal (Manvantara) cycle -- after this one goes to sleep when all its energy entropically winds down. You are correct when you say that the current developments in M-theory is getting closer and closer to HPB's metaphysics. Once, these scientists realize the connection between the zero-points of consciousness with their hyperspace fields, they will finally completely vindicate HPB and her Masters -- who knew all about this countless ages ago. Let's hope that happens soon, and all people realize these truths, before their current materialism, greed and selfishness brings this whole world down around our ears, everything resolves back to chaos -- and evolution is set back another million years... (As HPB warned might happen if theosophical knowledge, and the truths of karma and reincarnation, isn't imbedded in everyone's minds before this century is half over.) So let's hope for the best, and keep on plugging away trying to "spread broadcast" these truths as far and wide as possible. Best wishes and warm regards, Leon http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/LHM.index.html P.S. Let me know if you mind my posting this letter to the theosophical and consciousness study forums. In a message dated 12/13/04 7:18:05 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: >Dear Leon >Saw a show on TV yesterday called the Elegant Universe hosted by physicist >Brian Greene. It spoke about a new theory called The String Theory, now >called the M (Magic,Mystery,Matrix) Theory by Ed Whitten, who they claim >is the foremost physicist in the USA. >Basically it stated that the laws relating to the Theory of Relativity >and the laws of Quantum Mechanics are conflicting, and that the holy grail >of physics is to find one single theory that governs everything. >Gabrielle Veneziano in 1968, while looking for a clue to explore the "glue" >that bind the protons together found an equation in an old book which showed >that particles of the atoms are not points but strings, that strings vibrate >and dance at different rates and produce different patterns (life forms?) >It also said that strings need move in more than 3 dimensions and that >we are living on a membrane (string stretched) inside our three dimension >and parallel with a higher dimension . >The string theorists are saying that besides our 3 dimensions plus time, >there are another 6 dimensions, or degrees of freedom that the membrane >is part of. A 3 dimensional membrane that floats on a parallel universe >and that parallel universes are ruled by different laws of physics. >They are still searching for the Graviton (the gravity factor) and something >called Super Symmetry, >Anyway, as a non scientist, it sounded a lot like Theosophy, and in Occult >Chemistry by Annie Besant and Charles Leadbeater I saw diagrams of what >look like strings? >I hope this stimulates your scientific juices as it certainly made me feel >that science is coming closer and closer to what HPB said 100 years ago. >Regards >Cass From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Dec 21 04:32:15 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49786 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 12:32:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 12:32:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 12:32:14 -0000 Received: from [209.179.128.56] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CgjBK-00081L-Qr; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 07:32:04 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance:In-Reply-To; b=QXGfYtg2vYmMPH4pvK7Z9NEcYOuPmbLCT+ZekanjDsbuInU388CohHeXrELTKMSY; To: "'Theosophy Study List'" Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:31:54 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c4e759$13298410$3880b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79afbd4d7fcbfcdce08d88704305ac3971350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.128.56 Subject: RE: "esoteric flavoring," lost civilizations, Theosophy and ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dec 21 2004 Solstice at 1.45 p.m. Dear Jerry and Mauri: Pretty good for a solstice day. Already? Are we going up or down? In what dimension of consciousness? Anyway: --- My esoteric non-self bids you season's greetings for a non-existent and mayavic, or, so called exoteric and maybe-Self, and a highly mayavic and quite speculative 2005 -Dal ------------------------------------------------------- Paradoxes The ABSOLUTE in a Universe where absolutes are impossible. ULTIMATE REALITY -- something which cannot be either a "Being," or "non-Being." IT IS. The HIDDEN MEANING (or "purpose," or "motive") that is behind all "meanings" as expressed ----- Esotericism ? PURE ACTION -- that which acts without action -- and can underlie (as LAW ) the order and reason of all physical phenomena. ================================= -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 8:10 AM To: Subject: RE: "esoteric flavoring," lost civilizations, Theosophy and ... << Seems to me that one might also find lots of esoteric flavoring in Graham Hancock's FINGERPRINTS OF THE GODS. >> Sounds like you are geting into some history. My "esoteric flavoring" is really quite simple. Exotericism assumes that self exists. Esotericism assumes that it does not exist. Thats pretty much the bottom line. Jerry S. --- You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: dalval14@earthlink.net List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-56348C@list.vnet.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Dec 21 04:32:34 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 42295 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 12:32:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 12:32:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 12:32:34 -0000 Received: from [209.179.128.56] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CgjBo-00081L-3C for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 07:32:34 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance:In-Reply-To; b=RJjWYtusyrJRSW8qy/HRrFT0NN3K10xHT0wQJ3BxAXXyw+LpNJVSpVe6ZNjEnUqz; To: Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:31:54 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01c4e759$250b2710$3880b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <200412200735.1cGpza4hs3NZFpF0@mx-a065a28.pas.sa.earthlink.net> X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec793a300ce8a6e9c906c9d2ac0b0d785420350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.128.56 Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: Re: product X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 20 2004 Sorry NO DOCUMENT WAS ATTACHED THEOSOPHY-TALK will transmit no attachments. Please re-send by ordinary email. Dallas ============================== -----Original Message----- From: arielaretziel@yahoo.com [mailto:arielaretziel@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 7:36 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Re: product Your document is attached. ++++ Attachment: No Virus found ++++ F-Secure AntiVirus - www.f-secure.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Dec 21 04:32:41 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 5883 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 12:32:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 12:32:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 12:32:40 -0000 Received: from [209.179.128.56] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CgjBZ-00081L-99; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 07:32:28 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance:In-Reply-To; b=ErsVhGDQRN/RokgTKQzBcpvVz8ZUOEmgQ7VwP1c5B0FE+C2Y9130zOjCY/8GCu14; To: Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:31:54 -0800 Message-ID: <000a01c4e759$1c349450$3880b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79a0ca2a4b25b89bcde76ba101db4c83d0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.128.56 Subject: RE: [bn-study] Deity, Cosmos and Man, chapter 2 pgs 15 & 16 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 20 2004 Dear Estela: You ask on Dec 17: "In our day and age, spirit and soul are interchangeable, yet according to= =20 Theosophy, they are distinct elements that comprise a human being. In Theosophy spirit is the eternal and soul the temporary. Why does Theosophy insist on these distinctions? Why are we given this complex make-up of a human being, and why does=20 Farthing start the section with Rebirth?" =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1 What and what is "Farthing?" A Text ? Where available? 2 Let me offer: ---------------------------------------------- MANAS (Mind) IN EVOLUTION -- REINCARNATION The mystery about reincarnation -- as to whether it is a fact or not, revolves around our understanding of the nature and the powers of the Mind (Manas). Ordinarily the Mind is thought to be immaterial, or to be merely the name for brain-action, in evolving thought.=20=20 Thinking is still a process wholly unknown other than by inference. Yet it i also held that if there is no brain, there can be no mind. A good deal of attention has been paid to cataloging some mental functions and attributes, but the terms in our language are absent to describe metaphysical and spiritual facts about man.=20 The reaction against religion in the West, prevented science from taking anything but a materialistic view of man and nature.=20 THE HIGHER MAN Theosophy states=20 (1) the fifth principle is Manas, translated Mind. Other names may have been given to it, but it is the Knower, The Perceiver, The Thinker.=20 (2) The sixth principle is Buddhi, or spiritual discernment;=20=20 (3) the seventh is Atma, or Spirit -- the ray from the Absolute Being. English as a language, may suffice to describe in part what Manas is, but not Buddhi, or Atma, and will leave many things relating to Manas undescribed.=20 THE LOWER MAN The course of evolution developed the four lower principles (Desire, Life-energy, Astral and Physical bodies) and produced at last, the physical form of man with a brain of better and deeper capacity than that of any other animal.=20 APE-FORM DESCENDED FROM THE MAN-FORM THEOSOPHY states in regard to the evolutionary scheme in the present 4th ROUND that the "form" of mankind was FIRST brought into existence ahead of the animal forms. [ S D 155, 163, 168-9, 180, 186-7, 288-90, 594fn, 635, 683-5, 736fn ] With it as a primitive, a primordial base, all the various animal forms wer= e derived [ S D II p. 254 - 257 ].=20=20 There is a law in the Science of paleogenesis and anthropology (dealing wit= h the study of ancient fossils), which states that a "specialized form" (as the "ape-form," for instance) cannot be the progenitor of a "primitive form= " such as the skeletal form of "man" [ S D II 682 - 685]. The "specialized= " forms are all derived from the "primitive, primary" forms. This is a puzzl= e in Science as it contradicts the current hypothesis that the human form is derived by "ascent" from that of an "ape."=20 Further, we find in the SECRET DOCTRINE the following scientific and anthropological data: It implies that the specialized "APE-FORM" DESCENDED from the more primitive MAN-FORM [see S D I 186, 190-1; II 87fn, 189, 262, 287, 646, 665fn, 666-70, 677-8, 680-5, 688-9, 729, ].=20=20 The ape-form is that of a degenerated man [ S D II 717, 730].=20=20 Apes imitate men and not the reverse [ S D II 676 & fn] There is no "missing link" between the ape-form and the human form [S D II 190, 260, 720]. The ape-form is that of an unnatural cross-breed: [ S D I 183-5; II 201fn, 261-2] The "ape-form" was evolved many millions of years ago in the 3rd ROUND=20=20 [ S D II 186-7, 253-4, 261, 688fn, 729-30] This man in form, was not man in mind, and needed the fifth principle, the thinking, perceiving one, to differentiate him from the animal kingdom and to confer the power of becoming Self-Conscious. The Monad (Atma-Buddhi) was imprisoned in these forms, for without the presence of the Monad evolution could not go forward.=20 THE LIGHTING-UP OF THE MIND Going back for a moment to the time when mankind was devoid of mind, the question arises, "who gave the mind, where did it come from, and what is it?" It is the link between the Spirit of God above and the personal below. It was given to the mindless Monads by others who had gone through this process ages upon ages before in other worlds, and it therefore came from older evolutionary periods which had been carried out and completed long before the solar system began. This is the strange theory which must be stated if we are to tell the truth about Theosophy; and this is only handin= g on what others have said before.=20 The manner in which this Light Of Mind was given to the Mindless Men can be understood from the illustration of one candle lighting many. Given one lighted candle and numerous unlighted ones, it follows that from one light the others may also be set aflame. So in the case of Manas. It is the candl= e of flame.=20 The mindless men having four elementary principles of Body, Astral Body, Life and Desire, are the unlighted candles that cannot light themselves.=20 MIND IS A GIFT FROM OUR ELDER BROTHERS -- THE WISE The "Sons of Wisdom," who are our predecessors, the Elder Brothers of the family of men on any globe, have the Mind-light. It was derived by them from others -- their "Elders," who reach back, and yet farther back, in endless procession with no beginning or end. They set fire to the combined lower principles, and the Monad, thus lighting up Manas in the new men. And from there began the preparing of another great race for final initiation.= =20 This lighting up of the fire of Manas is symbolized in all great religions and Freemasonry. In the East a priest appears holding a candle lighted at the altar, and thousands of others come to him in a procession, to light their candles from this one.=20 MANAS THE IMMORTAL THINKER REINCARNATES Manas, or the Thinker, is the reincarnating being. It is the immortal who carries the results and values of all the different lives lived on earth or elsewhere.=20 MIND BECOMES DUAL IN THE PHYSICAL MAN Its nature becomes dual as soon as it is attached to a body. For the human Brain is a superior organism, and Manas uses it to reason from premises to conclusions. This also differentiates man from animal, for the animal acts from automatic, the so-called instinctual impulses. Whereas the man, can us= e Reason. This is the lower aspect of the Thinker or Manas, and not, as some have supposed, the highest and best gift belonging to man.=20 Its other, and in Theosophy higher, aspect, is the intuitional, which knows= , and does not depend on reason. It is Manas allied to Buddhi -- spiritual discrimination and Wisdom. The lower, and purely intellectual, is nearest to the principle of Desire [Kama], and is thus distinguished from its other side which has affinity for the spiritual principles (Buddhi and Atma) above. If the Thinker, becomes wholly intellectual and centered in materialism, the entire nature begins to trend downward; for intellect alon= e is cold, heartless, selfish, because it is not lighted up by the two other principles of universality and immortality: Buddhi and Atma.=20 MANAS-MIND STORES ALL THOUGHTS In Manas the thoughts of all lives are stored. That is to say: in any one life, the sum total of thoughts underlying all the acts of the life-time will be of one character in general, but may be placed in one or more classes. That is, the business man of today is a single type; his entire life thoughts represent but one single thread of thought. The artist, the poet, or the musician, is another. The man who has engaged in business, but also thought much upon fame and power which he never attained, is still another.=20 The great mass of self-sacrificing, courageous, and strong, poor people who have but little time to think, constitute another distinct class. In all these, the total quantity of life thoughts makes up the stream or thread of a "life's meditation" -- "that upon which the heart was set" -- and those are stored in immortal Manas. All those will be brought out again at any time in whatever life the brain and bodily environments are similar to thos= e used in engendering that class of thoughts.=20 PERCEPTION BY THE MIND It is Manas which sees the objects presented to it by the bodily organs and the actual organs (which are seated in the Astral body) within.=20 When the open eye receives a picture on the retina, the whole scene is turned into vibrations in the optic nerves which disappear into the brain, and there Manas is enabled to perceive them as idea-pictures. And so with every other organ or sense.=20 If the connection between Manas and the brain be broken, intelligence will not be manifested unless Manas has by training found out how to project the astral body out and away from the physical, and thereby keep up communication with fellow men.=20 OUR ORGANS OF PERCEPTION ARE TOOLS FOR THE MIND That the organs and senses do not cognize objects, hypnotism, mesmerism, an= d spiritualism have now proved. For, as we see in mesmeric and hypnotic experiments, the object seen or felt, and from which, all the effects of solid objects may be sensed, is often only an idea existing in the operator's brain.=20 In hypnotism there are many experiments, all of which go to show that so called matter is not per se solid or dense; that sight does not always depend on the eye and rays of light proceeding from an object; that the intangible for one normal brain and organs, may be perfectly tangible for another; and that physical effects in the body may be produced solely from an idea.=20 The well-known experiments of producing a blister by a simple piece of paper, or preventing a real blistering plaster from making a blister, by force of the idea conveyed to a subject, either that there was to be or not to be a blister, conclusively prove the power of effecting an impulse on matter by the use of that which is called Mind (Manas).=20 But all these phenomena are the exhibition of the powers of Lower Manas acting in the Astral Body and the fourth principle [Kama] -- Desire, using the physical body as the field for the exhibition of the forces. THOUGHT TRANSFERENCE=20 In the same way Manas, using the astral body, has only to impress an idea upon the other person to make the latter see the idea and translate it into a visible body from which the usual effects of density and weight seem to follow.=20 LOWER MANAS AND ITS POWERS It is this Lower Manas which retains all the impressions of a life-time and sometimes strangely exhibits them in trances or dreams, delirium, induced states, here and there in normal conditions, and very often at the time of physical death. But it is so occupied with the brain, with memory and with sensation, that it usually presents but few recollections out of the mass o= f events that years have brought before it.=20 It interferes with the action of Higher Manas [Buddhi-Manas] because just a= t the present point of evolution, Desire [Kama] and all corresponding powers, faculties, and senses are the most highly developed, thus obscuring, as it were, the white light of the spiritual side of Manas. It (Lower - [Kama] Manas) is tinted by each object presented to it, whether it be a thought-object or a material one. That is to say, Lower Manas operating through the brain is at once altered into the shape and other characteristics of any object, mental or otherwise. This causes it to have four peculiarities.=20 1. First, to naturally fly off and away from a selected point, object, or subject;=20 .=09 2. Second, to fly to some pleasant idea;=20 .=09 3. Third, to fly to an unpleasant idea;=20 .=09 4. Fourth, to remain passive and considering nothing. .=09 The first is due to memory and the natural motion of Manas; the second and third are due to memory alone; the fourth signifies sleep when not abnormal= . And when abnormal is trending toward insanity.=20 HIGHER MANAS AND ITS WORK These mental characteristics all belonging to Lower [Kama] Manas. It is these which the Higher [Budhi] Manas, aided by Buddhi and Atma, has to figh= t and conquer.=20 GENIUSES AND SAGES Higher [Buddhi] Manas, if able to act, becomes what we sometimes call Genius. If completely master, then one may become a "god." Our memory continually presents pictures to Lower Manas, and the result is that the Higher Manas is obscured.=20 Sometimes, however, along the pathway of life we do see here and there men who are geniuses or great seers and prophets. In these the Higher powers of Manas are active, and the person is illuminated. Such were the great Sages of the past, men like Buddha, Jesus, Confucius, Zoroaster, and others. Poets, too, such as Tennyson, Longfellow, and others, are men in whom Highe= r Manas now and then sheds a bright ray on the man below, to be soon obscured= , however, by the effect of dogmatic religious education which has given memory certain pictures that always prevent Manas from gaining full activity.=20 In this higher Trinity [atma-buddhi-manas], we have the God above each one; this is Atma, (the 7th principle) and may be called the Higher Self.=20=20 Next, (the sixth) is the spiritual part of the soul called Buddhi; when thoroughly united with Manas (the fifth) this may be called the Divine Ego, or the Spiritual Soul.=20 THE REINCARNATING SELF IS AN IMMORTAL The inner Ego (Manas), who reincarnates, taking on body after body, storing up the impressions of life after life, gaining experience and adding it to the Divine Ego, suffering and enjoying through an immense period of years, is the fifth principle -- Manas -- not united to Buddhi.=20 This is the "permanent individuality" which gives to every man the feeling of being himself and not some other; that which, through all the changes of the days and nights from youth to the end of life, makes us feel one identity through all the period; it bridges the gap made by sleep; in like manner it bridges the gap made by the sleep of death. It is this, and not our brain, that lifts us above the animal.=20 The depth and variety of the brain convolutions in man are caused by the presence of Manas, and are not the cause of mind. And when we either wholly= , or now and then, become consciously united with Buddhi, the Spiritual Soul, we "behold God," as it were. This is what the ancients all desired to see, but what the moderns do not believe in, the latter preferring rather to throw away their own right to be great in nature, and to worship an imaginary god, made up solely of their own fancies, and not very different from weak human nature.=20 WORK OF THE REINCARNATING MIND-MANAS This permanent individuality in our present race has therefore been through every sort of experience, for Theosophy insists on its permanence and in th= e necessity for its continuing to take part in evolution. It has a duty to perform, consisting in raising up to a higher state all the matter concerne= d in the chain of globes to which the earth belongs.=20 PAST CIVILIZATIONS We have all lived and taken part in civilization after civilization, race after race, on earth, and will so continue throughout all the Rounds and Races until the seventh is complete. At the same time it should be remembered that the matter of this globe, connected with it, has also been through every kind of form, with possibly some exceptions in very low plane= s of mineral formation.=20 But in general all the matter visible, or held in space still unprecipitated, has been molded at one time or another into forms of all varieties, many of these being such as we now have no idea of. The processe= s of evolution, therefore, in some departments, now go forward with greater rapidity than in former ages because both Manas and matter have acquired facility of action.=20 Especially is this so in regard to man, who is the farthest ahead of all things or beings in this evolution. He is now incarnated and projected into life more quickly than in earlier periods when it consumed many years to obtain a "coat of skin." This coming into life over and over again cannot b= e avoided by the ordinary man because Lower Manas is still bound by Desire [Kama], which is the preponderating principle at the present period. Being so very influenced by Desire, Manas is continually deluded while in the body, and being thus deluded is unable to prevent the action upon it of the forces set up in the life time [by free-choice and consequent Karma].=20 These forces are generated by Manas, that is, by the thinking of a whole life time. Each thought makes a physical as well as mental link with the Desire in which it is rooted. All life is filled with such thoughts, and when the period of rest after death is ended, Manas continues to be bound b= y innumerable electrical magnetic threads to earth by reason of the thoughts of the last life, and therefore by Desire, for it was Desire that caused so many thoughts and ignorance of the true nature of things. This is called by the Hindu philosophies "maya." (illusion). An understanding of this doctrine of man being really a thinker and made of thought, will make clear all the rest in relation to incarnation and reincarnation.=20 The body of the inner man is made of thought, and this being so, it must follow that if the thoughts have more affinity for earth-life than for life elsewhere a return to life here is inevitable.=20 At the present day Manas is not fully active in the race, as Desire still i= s uppermost. In the next cycle of the human period Manas will be fully active and developed in the entire race. Hence the people of the earth have not ye= t come to the point of making a conscious choice as to the path they will take; but when in the cycle referred to, Manas is active, all will then be compelled to consciously make the choice to right or left, the one leading to complete and conscious union with [the One Spirit] Atma, the other to th= e annihilation of those beings who prefer that path of an isolated selfishness. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D THEOSOPHY -- A BODY OF KNOWLEDGE Theosophy is that ocean of knowledge which spreads from shore to shore of the evolution of sentient beings; unfathomable in its deepest parts, it gives the greatest minds their fullest scope, yet, shallow enough at its shores, it will not overwhelm the understanding of a child.=20=20 It is Wisdom, for it is the science of sciences. It is therefore complete in itself and sees no unsolvable mystery anywhere. It throws the word coincidence out of its vocabulary.=20=20 It hails the reign of law in everything and every circumstance.=20 Theosophy teaches that the course of evolution is the drama of the soul an= d that nature exists for no other purpose than the soul's experience.=20 SCALES OF INTELLIGENCE -- THE SAGES The Theosophist asserts that there must be beings in the universe who possess advanced intelligence and naturally take an active and cooperative part in the government of the natural order of things. They are the active, and wise assistants of Nature, [the UNIVERSE] as a whole. The Theosophist adds that such Wise Sages are Intelligences which were once human, and came like all of us from other and previous worlds.=20 The most intelligent being in the universe, man, has never, been without a friend, but has a line of elder brothers who continually watch over the progress of the less progressed, preserve the knowledge gained through aeon= s of trial and experience, and continually seek for opportunities of drawing the developing intelligence of the race to consider the great truths concerning the destiny of the soul [Mind].=20 UNIVERSAL EVOLUTION -- ITS RECORDS This immense reach of the evolutionary system means, that this planet on which we now are, is the result of the activity and the evolution of some earlier one that died long ago. It left its energy to be used in the bringing into existence the earth. Further, the inhabitants of the Earth, i= n their turn, came from some older world. They are now proceeding with their destined work in the "matter" we are familiar with here.=20 The Elder Brothers of the human race, keep the knowledge they have gained o= f the laws of nature in all departments, and are ready when cyclic law permit= s to use it for the benefit of mankind. They have always existed as a body, all knowing each other, no matter in what part of the world they may be, an= d all working for the race in many different ways. [see ISIS UNVEILED, Vol. 2= , pp. 98-103]=20 They have stood by the cradle of nations and seen the vast achievements of the ancients, watched sadly the decay of those who had no power to resist the cyclic law of rise and fall; and while cataclysms seemed to show a universal destruction of art, architecture, religion, and philosophy, they have preserved the records of it all in places secure from the ravages of either men or time. They have made minute observations, through trained psychics among their own order, into the unseen realms of nature and of mind, recorded the observations, and have preserved the record. And, greater feat than all -- one which implies a knowledge of the very foundations of nature -- they know what the ultimate divisions of time are and what are the meaning and the times of the cycles. [ see S D Vol. I, pp. 272-3 ] When this day opens, cosmic evolution, so far as relates to this solar system, begins and occupies between one and two billions of years in evolving the very ethereal first matter before the astral kingdoms of mineral, vegetable, animal and men are possible.=20 PLANS AND MATERIAL IN EVOLUTION In these the, very distant and very silent past, Man could not have his bodily temple to live in, until all the matter in and about his world had been found by the Master, the spiritual and eternal Inner Man. Once found, the plans for working it required to be carried out in detail, until all th= e parts should be perfectly ready and fit for placing in the final structure.= =20 This is the gradual coming forth of the known and heterogeneous from the unknown and homogeneous. The ancient Egyptian and Hindu Theosophists never admitted a creation out of nothing, but ever strenuously insisted upon evolution, by gradual stages. All the various powers and potentialities needed, had to be well worked out in this slow but sure process. At last man is put upon the scene: a sevenfold being, a miniature of the universe and earth, which are sevenfold.=20 CONSOLIDATION OF MATERIALS AND FORMS This second step takes some three hundred millions of years, and then still more material processes go forward for the production of the tangible (physical matter) kingdoms of nature, including man. This covers over one and one-half billions of years. And the number of solar years included in the present "human" period is over eighteen millions of years. [S D . I, pp. 150, footnote] During all these ages before man's physical body came into being, evolution was carrying on the work of perfecting various powers which are now our possession. This was accomplished by the Ego or Real Man going through experience in countless conditions of matter, all different one from the other, and the same plan in general was and is pursued as prevails in respect to the general evolution of the universe. That is, details were first worked out in spheres of being very ethereal, metaphysical, in fact. Then the next step brought the same details to be worked out on a plane of matter a little more dense, until at last it could be done on our present plane of what we miscall "gross matter." This is called the "descent of Spirit into Matter." Theosophy alone, inclusive of all systems and every experience, gives the key, the plan, the doctrine, the truth of these great natural processes.=20 The Plan comes first in the Universal Mind, after which the astral model or basis is made, and when that astral model is completed, the whole process i= s gone over so as to condense the matter, up to the middle of the Fourth Round.=20 The object of this amalgamation and subsequent differentiation is to give t= o every race the benefit of the progress and power of the whole derived from prior progress in other planets and systems. For Nature never does her work in a hasty or undue fashion, but, by the sure method of mixture, precipitation, and separation, brings about the greatest perfection.=20 What has become at last "man" is of vastly greater age, for before the present two sexes appeared, the human creature was sometimes of one shape and sometimes of another, until the whole plan had been fully worked out into our present form, function, and capacity.=20 MONADIC EVOLUTION=09 Considering our Earth, the view put forward by Theosophy regarding its genesis, its evolution and the evolution of the Human, Animal and other Monads, is quite different from modern ideas, and in some things contrary t= o accepted theories.=20=20 We find that the Scientific theories of today are not stable. They change with each century, while the Theosophical one never alters. It is the result of age-old and continuous verification by the Elder Brothers. These have now caused its repromulgation and pointed to its confirmation in ancient books and traditions. To them, it is a statement of facts in nature. The modern Scientific theories in an attempt to speculatively rebuild an unknown past, are, on the contrary, always doubtful, changeable, and continually altered. There are continuous attempts to secure proof of these theories, but nothing has proved conclusive so far. =09 THE EARTH HAS REINCARNATED The Earth Chain of seven Globes as thus defined is the direct reincarnation of a former chain of seven Globes, and that former family of seven was the Moon chain, the moon itself being the visible representative of the fourth Globe of the old chain.=20 PERFECTION AND THE END OF EVOLUTION Each one of the Globes is used by evolutionary law for the development of seven "Races," and of senses, faculties and powers appropriate to that stat= e of matter. (the experience of the whole seven Globes being needed to make a perfect development in man's consciousness and character).=20 At the present time the seven races are mixed together, and representatives of all are in the many so-called races of men as classified by our present science. The object of this amalgamation and subsequent differentiation is to give to every race the benefit of the progress and power of the whole derived from prior progress in other planets and systems. For Nature never does her work in a hasty or undue fashion, but, by the sure method of mixture, precipitation, and separation, brings about the greatest perfection.=20 But when the last, the seventh Race has appeared and fully perfected itself= , in the 7th Round and the 7th Globe, a great dissolution comes on, similar t= o that which preceded the birth of the earth's chain. Then the world disappears.=20 Subsequent to that, which is our future, the whole mass is spiritualized with full consciousness and the entire body of globes raised up to a higher plane of development. In considering this, one may think of an "atom" as essentially an eternal, individualized field of electro-magnetic Force. Physical material is condensed in and around it by attraction. The formation of worlds, and the reincarnation of human Souls, may be thought of in similar terms, and follo= w a similar pattern. The ancient teaching always held, as is now admitted by Science, that we se= e or perceive only the phenomena but not the essential nature, cause or being of Matter.=20 UNIVERSAL PLAN OF MANIFESTATION Mind (the Universal Mind or Mahat) is the intelligent part of the Cosmos. In the collection of seven differentiations roughly sketched above, Universal Mind is that in which the Plan of the Cosmos is fixed or contained. This Plan is brought over from a prior period of manifestation, which added to its ever-increasing perfectness as it proceeds. No limit ca= n be set to its evolutionary possibilities in perfectness, because, as there was never any beginning to the periodical manifestations of "the Absolute," there never will be an end, but forever the going forth and withdrawing int= o the Unknown will go on.=20 Wherever a world or system of worlds is evolving there the Plan has been laid down in Universal Mind, the original force comes from Spirit, the basi= s is Matter -- which is in fact invisible -- Life sustains all the forms, and Akasa is the connecting link between Matter on one side and Spirit-Mind on the other.=20 END OF A CYCLE -- CATACLYSMS - DELUGES When a world or a system comes to the end of certain great cycles, men record a cataclysm in history or tradition. These universal traditions abound, all pointing to early teaching and dim recollection of periodical destructions and renovations. Just as there are periodical minor cataclysms or partial destructions, so, the doctrine holds, there is, as a prototype, the universal evolution and involution.=20 HOW OLD IS OUR EARTH? The real age of the world has long been involved in doubt for Western investigators, who up to the present have shown unwillingness to take instruction from the records of Oriental people much older than the West. Yet with the Orientals is the truth about the matter.=20 But the Master Theosophists know what is to be the resurrection of the old pyramid builders of the Nile valley, and where the plans of those ancient master masons have been hidden from the profane eyes until the cycle should roll round again for their bringing forth. When Egypt and India were younge= r there was a constant intercourse between them. They both, thought alike, bu= t fate ruled that of the two the Hindus only should preserve the old ideas among a living people.=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Best wishes and seasons greetings.=20=20 Have a fine 2005 Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Dec 21 05:53:10 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2614 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 13:53:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 13:53:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 13:53:09 -0000 Received: from [216.244.6.188] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CgkQf-0005EL-PA; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:52:14 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance; b=XAPxLe4MrG6Hq4q0HT7l3eCUyHciZnu+JHm7xHhC7FEx47f3YHhPo8+cFm4TJfWl; To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 05:51:45 -0800 Message-ID: <000e01c4e764$3dd1c500$3880b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7903bda9a081223bc189b9c2786fdbe12b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 216.244.6.188 Subject: 2005 A NEW CYCLE X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 2005 Years ago H P B wrote as powerful article to inaugurate a new Theosophica= l Journal in Paris. Its principles are valid today and well worth re-reading as we approach 2005. [ 2 + 5 =3D 7 ] Best wishes for the seasons' changes. Dallas (Solstice 2004) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D THE NEW CYCLE H. P. Blavatsky La Revue Theosophique, March 21, 1889=20 We cannot inaugurate this first issue of an official and strictly Theosophical Magazine without giving our readers some information that seem= s essential to us.=20 Indeed, the ideas held to this day with regard to the Theosophical Society in India, as it has been called, are so vague and so varied, that even many of our members entertain very erroneous views concerning it. Nothing could show more convincingly the necessity of making well known the goals we pursue in a Magazine devoted exclusively to Theosophy. Also, before asking our readers to become interested in it, or even to take up its study, they need to be given some preliminary explanations.=20 WHAT IS THEOSOPHY?=20 What is Theosophy? Why use this pretentious name, we are asked at the outset. When we answer that Theosophy is Divine Wisdom, or the Wisdom of th= e Gods (Theo-Sophia), rather than that of a God, a still more extraordinary objection is raised: "Then, are you not Buddhists? Yet we know that the Buddhists believe neither in a, nor several Gods. . . ."=20 Nothing could be more correct. But, in the first place, we are no more Buddhists than we are Christians, Mussulmans, Jews, Zoroastrians or Brahmins.=20 Furthermore, concerning the question of Gods: we hold to the esoteric metho= d of the Hyponia taught by Ammonius Saccas--i.e., to the occult meaning of th= e term.=20 Did not Aristotle say: "The Divine Essence permeating nature and diffused throughout the entire Universe (which is infinite), that which the hoi polloi call Gods, is simply . . . the first principles" -- in other words, the creative intelligent forces of Nature.=20 >From the fact that Buddhist philosophers admit and know of the nature of these forces as well as anybody, it does not follow that the Society--as a Society--is therefore Buddhist.=20 The Society, in its capacity as an abstract corporation, believes in nothing, accepts nothing, teaches nothing. The Society per se cannot and must not have any religion, for it contains all religions.=20 TRUTH Cults are, after all, but external vehicles, more or less material forms an= d containing more or less of the essence of the One and Universal Truth.=20 In its essential nature Theosophy is the spiritual as well as the physical science of this Truth--the very essence of deistic and philosophical research. As visible representative of the universal Truth, since it contains all religions and philosophies, and since each of them contains in its turn a portion of this Truth--the Society could not be sectarian, have preferences, or be any more partial than, say, an anthropological or geographic society. Do the latter care to what religion their explorers belong, so long as each of their members bravely carries out his duty?=20 Now, if we are asked, as has been done already so many times, whether we ar= e deists or atheists, spiritualists or materialists, idealists or positivists= , royalists, republicans, or socialists, we can only answer that each of thes= e opinions is represented in the Society.=20 I have but to repeat what I said just ten years ago in a lead article in th= e Theosophist, to show how much that which the general public thinks of us is different from what we really are. Our Society has been accused from time t= o time of the most baroque and contradictory misdeeds, and has been charged with motives and ideas that it has never had.=20 What has not been said of us! One day we were an association of ignoramuses= , believers in miracles; the next day, we were declared to be thaumaturgists; our aim was secret and entirely political, it was said in the morning--that we were Carbonari and dangerous Nihilists; then, in the evening, we were found to be spies salaried by autocratic and monarchic Russia. At other times, without any transition, we were believed to be Jesuits seeking to ruin French Spiritism. American Positivists saw in us religious fanatics, while the clergy of all nations denounced us as emissaries of Satan etc., etc.... Finally, our good critics with impartial urbanity divided all theosophists into two categories: charlatans and dupes....=20 Well, men slander only those they hate or "fear." Why should we be hated? A= s to fearing us, who can say?=20 Truth is not always welcome and, perhaps, we utter too many real truths!=20 Yet, since the day our Society was founded in the United States, fourteen years ago, our teachings have received wholly unhoped-for attention. The original program had to be enlarged, and the territory of our researches an= d combined explorations now extends towards unlimited horizons.=20 This expansion was made necessary by the ever growing number of our members= , a number still increasing daily; the diversity of their races and their religions requiring ever deeper studies on our part. However, although our program was enlarged, nothing was changed as to the three main objects, except, alas, with regard to the one dearest to our heart, the first, that is: Universal Brotherhood without distinction of race, color or creed.=20 Notwithstanding all our efforts, this object has almost always been ignored= , or has remained a dead letter, in India especially, thanks to the innate superciliousness and national pride of the English. Except for that, the other two objects, that is to say, the study of Oriental religions, especially of the ancient Vedic and Buddhistic scriptures, and our researches into the latent powers of man, have been pursued with a zeal tha= t has received its reward.=20 Since 1876 we have been compelled to deviate more and more from the main highway of general principles, originally laid down, and to take ever widening subsidiary paths.=20 THE SECRET DOCTRINE=20=20 Thus in order to satisfy all Theosophists, and to follow the evolution of all religions, we have been forced to travel clear around the globe, beginning our pilgrimage at the dawn of the cycle of nascent humanity.=20 These researches have resulted in a synthesis which has just been sketched in THE SECRET DOCTRINE, certain portions of which will be translated in thi= s Magazine.=20 The doctrine is barely outlined in our volumes; and yet the mysteries unveiled therein concerning the beliefs of the prehistoric peoples, cosmogenesis and anthropology, had never been divulged until now.=20 Certain of its dogmas and theories are in conflict with scientific theories= , especially with those of Darwin; yet they explain and throw light on what t= o this day had remained incomprehensible; and fill more than one gap, left open, nolens volens, by official science.=20 But we had to present all these doctrines, such as they are, or never to broach the subject at all. He who is frightened by these infinite prospects and would seek to reduce them by using the shortcuts and the "flying bridges" artificially constructed by modern science over its thousand and one gaps, will do better not to enter the Thermopylae of archaic science.=20 Such has been one of the results our Society has achieved; a poor one, perhaps, but one that will certainly be followed by further revelations, exoteric or purely esoteric. If we speak thereof it is to prove that we do not preach any religion in particular, leaving each member utterly free to follow his own particular belief.=20 The prime object of our organization, of which we strive to make a real brotherhood, is fully expressed in the motto of the Theosophical Society an= d of all its organs:=20 "There is no Religion higher than Truth."=20 Hence, as an impersonal Society, we must welcome Truth wherever it may be found, without partiality for any one belief as against another. This leads directly to a quite logical deduction: if we acclaim and welcome with open arms every earnest seeker after truth, it follows that there is no place in our ranks for the ardent sectarian, for the bigot, or for the hypocrite surrounded by a "Chinese wall" of dogmas, each stone of which bears the inscription: "No one may pass here."=20 FREEDOM OF RESEARCH=09 What, indeed, could be the position in our midst of a fanatic whose religio= n forbids all research, and does not admit the free use of reason--when the original concept, the very root from which grows the beautiful plant that w= e call Theosophy, is free and complete research into all the mysteries, natural, divine, or human!=20 Except for this restriction, the Society invites everyone to participate in its investigations and discoveries. Whoever feels his heart beating in unison with the great heart of humanity, whoever feels his interests at one with those who are poorer and less fortunate than himself; whoever, man or woman, is ever ready to lend a helping hand to those who suffer, whoever is fully conscious of the real meaning of "Egoism," is a Theosophist by birth and by right. He can always be sure of finding sympathetic hearts amongst us. Our Society is in fact a small, special humanity, where, as among mankind at large, one may always find his counterpart.=20 If it is objected that in it the atheist rubs elbows with the deist, and th= e materialist with the idealist, we answer: "What of it?" If an individual is a materialist, that is, discerns in matter an infinite potency for the creation, or rather for the evolution of all terrestrial life; or else a spiritualist endowed with a spiritual perception the other one does not have, why should this prevent one or the other from being a good Theosophist?=20 Besides, those who worship a Personal God or Divine Substance are far more materialistic than the Pantheists who reject the idea of a carnalized God but who perceive the divine essence in each atom.=20 A UNIVERSAL DEIFIC PRINCIPLE The whole world knows that Buddhism recognizes neither a God nor Gods. And yet the Arhat, for whom each atom of dust is as full of Swabhavat (plastic substance, eternal and intelligent, though impersonal) as he is himself, an= d who tries to assimilate this Swabhavat by identifying himself with the All in order to reach Nirvana, must in order to reach it follow the same Path o= f sorrows, of renunciation, of good works and of altruism, and has to lead as saintly a life, although less selfish in motive, as the beatified Christian= . What matters the passing form if the goal pursued is the same Eternal Essence, whether that Essence appear to human perception under the guise of a Substance, of an immaterial Breath, or of a No-thing!=20 Let us admit the PRESENCE, whether called Personal God or Universal Substance, and let us admit a cause, since we all see effects. But these effects being the same for the Buddhist atheist as for the Christian deist, and the cause being as inscrutable for the one as for the other, why should we waste our time pursuing an illusive shadow? In the final analysis, the greatest of materialists, as well as the most transcendental of philosophers, admits the omnipresence of an impalpable Proteus, omnipotent in its ubiquity throughout all kingdoms of nature, including man--a Proteus indivisible in its essence, without form and yet manifesting itself in all forms, which is here, there, everywhere and nowhere, which is the All and the Nothing, which is all things and always One, Universal Essence which binds, limits and contains everything, and which everything contains. What theologian can go beyond that?=20 It is enough to recognize these verities to be a Theosophist; for such a confession amounts to admitting that not only humanity--even though consisting of thousands of races--but all that lives and vegetates, all tha= t in one word is, is made up of the same essence and substance, is animated b= y the same spirit, and that, therefore, there is solidarity throughout nature= , on the physical as well as on the moral plane.=20 We have already said in the Theosophist: "Born in the United States of America, the Theosophical Society was constituted on the model of its mother country. The latter, as we know, omits the name of God from its constitution, lest, said the Fathers of the Republic, this word someday afford the pretext for a State religion; for they wanted to grant absolute equality in its laws to all religions so that all would support the State and all in their turn would be protected." =20 The Theosophical Society was established on this beautiful model.=20 As of today its one hundred seventy-three [173] branches are grouped into several Sections. In India these sections are self-governing and self-supporting; outside of India there are two large Sections, one in America, and the other one in England (American Section and British Section). Thus each branch as well as each member, having the right to profess the religion and to study the sciences or philosophies it or he prefers, provided that the whole remains united by bonds of solidarity and fraternity--our Society may be truly called the=20 "REPUBLIC OF CONSCIENCE."=20 While being free to engage in those intellectual pursuits that please him the most, each member of our Society must, however, give some reason for belonging to it, which means that each member must do his own chosen part, however small it may be, by way of mental work or otherwise, for the good o= f all.=20 If he does not work for others, he has no reason for being a Theosophist.=20 All of us must work for the liberation of human thought, for the eliminatio= n of selfish and sectarian superstitions, and for the discovery of all the truths that are within the reach of the human mind. This goal cannot be attained with greater certainty than through the culture of solidarity on the plane of mental work. No honest worker, no serious seeker, has ever returned therefrom empty-handed; and there are hardly any men or women, however busy they may be thought to be, unable to lay their moral or pecuniary mite on the altar of Truth.=20 Henceforth it will be the duty of the Presidents of branches and Sections t= o see to it that there be no such drones who do nothing but buzz in the Theosophical beehive.=20 One further word. How many times have not the two founders of the Theosophical Society been accused of ambition and autocracy! How many times have they not been reproached with a pretended desire to impose their will on other members! Nothing could be more unjust.=20 The founders of the Society have always been the first and humblest servant= s of their co-workers and colleagues; always showing themselves ready to help others with the feeble lights at their disposal, and to support them in the fight against the egoists, the indifferent and the sectarians; for such is the first battle for which everyone must be prepared who enters our Society= , so little understood by the general public.=20 Besides, the reports published after each Annual Convention are there to prove this. At our last convention, held in Madras, in December 1888, important reforms were proposed and adopted. Anything resembling a financia= l obligation was discontinued, even the payment of 25 francs for the cost of = a diploma having been abolished. Hereafter members will be free to donate wha= t they wish, if their heart is set on helping and supporting the Society, or, not to give anything.=20 Under these conditions, and at this moment of Theosophical history, it is easy to understand the goal of a Magazine devoted exclusively to the spread of our ideas. In it we would like to be able to open up new intellectual horizons, to trace unexplored paths leading to the amelioration of humankind; to offer words of comfort to all the disinherited of the earth who suffer from a spiritual void, or from an absence of material goods. We invite all noble-hearted persons who would respond to this appeal to join u= s in this humanitarian work.=20 THE FUTURE Every contributor, whether a member of our Society or merely in sympathy with it, can help us to make of this Magazine the only organ of true Theosophy in France. We are now facing all the glorious possibilities of th= e future. Once again the hour has struck for the great periodical return of the rising tide of mystic thought in Europe. We are surrounded on all sides by the ocean of universal science--the science of life eternal--bringing in its waters the buried and long forgotten treasures of vanished generations, treasures still unknown to the modern civilized races. The powerful current rising from the submarine abysses, from the depths where lie the learning and arts engulfed with the antediluvian Giants--demi-gods, though mortals hardly yet formed; this current blows us in the face, murmuring: "That which was, still is; that which is forgotten, buried for =E6ons in the dept= hs of Jurassic strata, may once again reappear on the surface. Prepare yourselves."=20 Happy those who understand the language of the elements. But, where are those heading to whom the word element conveys no other meaning than the on= e given to it by materialistic physics and chemistry? Will the great waters carry them toward familiar shores when they will have been swept off their feet in the oncoming flood? Will they be carried toward the summit of a new Ararat, toward the heights where are light and sun and a safe spot to stand on, or toward a bottomless abyss that will engulf them as soon as they attempt to fight against the irresistible waves of a new element?=20 Let us prepare, and let us study Truth in all its aspects, trying not to ignore any of them, if we do not wish, when the hour will have struck, to fall into the abyss of the unknown. It is useless to rely on chance, and to await the approaching intellectual and psychic crisis with indifference if not with total incredulity, saying to oneself that if worse comes to worst, the tide will carry us quite naturally to the shore; for there is a strong likelihood of the tide stranding but a corpse! The battle will be fierce, i= n any case, between brutal materialism and blind fanaticism on the one hand, and on the other philosophy and mysticism--that more or less thick veil of the Eternal Truth.=20 It is not materialism that will have the upper hand. Everyone fanatically clinging to an idea isolating him from the universal axiom -- "There is no Religion higher than Truth" -- will find himself separated like a rotten plank from the new ark called Humanity. Tossed by the waves, chased by the winds, buffeted by this element so terrible because unknown, he will soon find himself swallowed up =20 Yes, thus it must be, and it cannot be otherwise when the flame of modern materialism, artificial and cold, will be extinguished for lack of fuel. Those who cannot conceive of a spiritual Ego, of a living Soul, and of an eternal Spirit, within their material shell (which owes its illusory life only to these principles); those for whom the great wave of hope in a life beyond the grave is a bitter draught, the symbol of an unknown quantity, or else the subject of a belief sui generis, the result of mediumistic or theological hallucinations--those will do well to be prepared for the keenest of disappointments the future could have in store for them.=20 For, from the depths of the muddy black waters of matter, hiding from them on all sides the horizons of the great beyond, a mystic force is rising towards the closing years of this century. A mere touch, at the most, until now, but a superhuman touch, "supernatural" only for the superstitious and the ignorant.=20 The Spirit of Truth is at this moment moving upon the face of these black waters, and, separating them, forces them to yield their spiritual treasures. This spirit is a force that cannot be either checked or stopped. Those who recognize it and feel that this is the supreme moment of their salvation, will be carried by it beyond the illusions of the great astral serpent.=20 The bliss they will experience will be so sharp and so keen that were they not in spirit detached from their bodies of flesh, this beatitude would wound them like a sharpened blade.=20 It is not pleasure that they will feel, but a bliss which is a foretaste of the wisdom of the gods, of the knowledge of good and evil, and of the fruit= s of the Tree of Life.=20 CHOOSE YOUR OWN FUTURE But whether the man of today be a fanatic, a skeptic, or a mystic, he must realize that it is fruitless to struggle against these two moral forces now unleashed and engaged in a fight to the finish. He is at the mercy of these two adversaries and there is no intermediary power capable of protecting him.=20 It is but a matter of choice: to let oneself be carried away naturally and without struggle by the flood of unfolding mysticism, or else to struggle and react against the stresses of the moral and psychic evolution and to feel oneself swallowed up in the Maelstrom of the new tide.=20 At this very time the whole world with its centers of great intellect and o= f human culture, with its political, literary, artistic and commercial centers, is in turmoil, everything is tottering, falling apart, and now tending to re-form. It is useless to blind oneself to this, useless to hope one will be able to remain neutral between these two warring forces; one ca= n only be crushed, or has to choose between them.=20 The man who thinks he has chosen freedom and who nevertheless remains submerged in this seething and foaming cauldron of filth called social life= , utters the most terrible lie to his Divine Self; a lie that will blind this Self through its long series of future incarnations.=20 All of you who waver on the path of Theosophy and of the occult sciences, who tremble on the golden threshold of Truth, the only Truth still open to you, since all the others have failed, one after the other--look the Great Reality now offering itself to you straight in the face. These words are fo= r the mystically inclined only, for them alone they will be of some importance; for those who have already made their choice they will prove vain and useless.=20 But you Occultists, Kabalists and Theosophists, you know well that a word a= s old as the world, though new to you, has been sounded at the beginning of this cycle, and lies potentially, although not articulate for those others, in the sum of the ciphers of the year 1889; you know that a note, never before heard by the men of the present era, has just been sounded, and that a new kind of thought has arisen, fostered by the evolutionary forces. This thought differs from all that has ever been produced in the 19th Century; yet it is identical with what was the keynote and the keystone of every century, especially the last one: "ABSOLUTE FREEDOM OF HUMAN THOUGHT."=20 Why try to kill, to suppress, that which cannot be destroyed? Why fight whe= n one has no other choice than either to allow oneself to be lifted up to heaven on the crest of the spiritual tide, beyond stars and universes, or t= o be swallowed in the gaping abyss of the ocean of matter?=20 Vain are your efforts to plumb the unsoundable in search of the roots of that matter so glorified in our century; for these roots grow in Spirit and in the Absolute, and do not exist, though being eternal.=20 This continuous contact with flesh, blood, and bones, with the illusion of differentiated matter only blinds you; and the more you advance in the real= m of chemical and impalpable atoms the more will you become convinced that they exist only in your imagination.=20 Do you believe that you will really discover all truths and all the realities of being there? But, death stands at the door of all of us, ready to close it on the soul of the beloved escaping from its prison, on that soul which alone gave reality to the body; and is love eternal to be likene= d to the molecules of that matter which changes and disappears?=20 But perhaps you are indifferent to all this; if so, of what importance to you are the love and the souls of those whom you loved, since you do not believe in these souls? Be it so. Your choice is already made. You have entered the path that crosses but the arid wastes of matter. You have doome= d yourself to vegetate there through a long series of lives, content henceforth with feverish hallucinations instead of spiritual perceptions, with passions instead of love, with the rind instead of the fruit.=20 But you, friends and readers, who aspire to something more than the life of the squirrel in its ceaselessly revolving wheel; you who are not satisfied with the cauldron which is ever boiling without producing anything, you who do not mistake hollow echoes as old as the world for the divine voice of Truth, prepare yourselves for a future that few of you have dreamed of unless you have already set your feet upon the Path. For you have chosen a way which, in the beginning lined with thorns, will soon widen, and lead yo= u straight to the Divine Truth. =20 You are free to doubt at first; free not to accept on someone's word what i= s taught concerning the source and the cause of this Truth, but you can alway= s listen to what the voice is saying, you can always watch the effects produced by the creative force which emerges from the depths of the unknown= . The arid soil upon which our present generations are moving at the close of this age of spiritual starvation and material satiety, is in need of a sign= , of a rainbow --symbol of hope--above its horizon. For, of all past centuries, the nineteenth is the most criminal.=20 It is criminal in its fearful selfishness, in its scepticism that scoffs at the mere idea of something beyond matter; in its idiotic indifference to al= l that is not the personal "I"--far more so than any of the centuries of barbaric ignorance and intellectual darkness.=20 Our century must be saved from itself before its last hour strikes. Now is the time for action by all who see the sterility and foolishness of an existence blinded by materialism and so ferociously indifferent to the fate of others. It is for them to devote their best energies, all their courage and all their efforts to bring about an intellectual reform.=20 This reform cannot be accomplished except through Theosophy, and, let us sa= y it, Occultism, or the Wisdom of the East. Many are the paths leading to it, but Wisdom is forever one.=20 Artists foresee it, those who suffer dream of it, the pure in spirit know it. Those who work for others cannot remain blind before its reality even though they do not always know it by name. It is only the light-headed and empty-minded, the selfish and vain drones deafened by the sound of their ow= n buzzing who can ignore this high ideal. They will live until life itself becomes an unbearable burden to them.=20 Let it be known, however, that these pages are not written for the masses. They are neither a call for reform nor an effort to win over to our views those who are happy in life. They are addressed only to those who are ready to understand them, to those who suffer, to those who are thirsty and hungr= y for any reality in this world of shifting shadows.=20 And why should those not have enough courage to give up their frivolous way= s of life, above all their pleasures and even some of their business interests, unless the care of these interests is a duty owed to their families or to others?=20 No one is so busy or so poor that he cannot be inspired by a noble ideal to follow. Why hesitate to blaze a trail toward that ideal through all obstacles, all hindrances, all the daily considerations of social life, and to advance boldly until it is reached? Ah! those who would make this effort would soon find that the "narrow gate" and "the thorny path" lead to spacious valleys with unlimited horizons, to a state without death, for one rebecomes a God!=20 AN IDEAL PATH It is true that the first requisites for getting there are absolute unselfishness and unlimited devotion to the interests of others, and complete indifference as to the world and its opinions. To take the first step on this ideal path requires a perfectly pure motive; no frivolous thought must be allowed to divert our eyes from the goal; no hesitation, no doubt must fetter our feet. Yet, there are men and women perfectly capable of all this, and whose only desire is to live under the aegis of their Divine Nature. Let these, at least, have the courage to live this life and not to hide it from the sight of others! =20 No one's opinion could ever be above the rulings of our own conscience, so, let that conscience, arrived at its highest development, be our guide in al= l our common daily tasks. As to our inner life, let us concentrate all our attention on our chosen Ideal, and let us ever look beyond without ever casting a glance at the mud at our feet....=20 Those capable of such an effort are true Theosophists; all others are but members more or less indifferent, and quite often useless.=20 H. P. BLAVATSKY La Revue Theosophique, March 21, 1889=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Dec 21 10:09:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70140 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 18:09:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 18:09:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 18:09:06 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CgoRC-00015p-G1 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:08:46 -0500 Message-ID: <41C866B5.8050207@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:08:53 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <000b01c4e759$250b2710$3880b3d1@DALLAS> In-Reply-To: <000b01c4e759$250b2710$3880b3d1@DALLAS> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba9121395ba1aee1176d9119743176ce7aa2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Re: product X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 W.Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > Sorry NO DOCUMENT WAS ATTACHED > > THEOSOPHY-TALK will transmit no attachments. Or, if someone wants to send a file to the group, they can do it in the group's file area. Bart From AnandGholap@A... Tue Dec 21 14:41:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@A... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 87611 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2004 22:41:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2004 22:41:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.net4india.com) (202.71.129.92) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 2004 22:41:10 -0000 Received: from [61.1.105.254] (helo=k1) by smtp.net4india.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1CgsuZ-00044A-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 04:25:23 +0530 Message-ID: <00c201c4e7ae$22f0aae0$fe69013d@k1> To: Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 04:10:24 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.71.129.92 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Masters X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: www_anandgholap_net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit www.AnandGholap.net " THERE has been among Theosophical students a great deal of vagueness and uncertainty about the Masters, so perhaps it may help us to realize how natural Their lives are, and how there is an ordinary physical side to them, if I say a few words about the daily life and appearance of some of Them. There is no one physical characteristic by which an Adept can be infallibly distinguished from other men, but He always appears impressive, noble, dignified, holy and serene, and anyone meeting Him could hardly fail to recognize that he was in the presence of a remarkable man. He is the strong but silent man, speaking only when He has a definite object in view, to encourage, to help or to warn, yet He is wonderfully benevolent and full of a keen sense of humour-- humour always of a kindly order, used never to wound, but always to lighten the troubles of life. The Master Morya once said that it is impossible to make progress on the occult Path without a sense of humour, and certainly all the Adepts whom I have seen have possessed that qualification. 48. Most of Them are distinctly fine-looking men; Their physical bodies are practically perfect, for They live in complete obedience to the laws of health, and above all They never worry about anything. All Their evil karma has long been exhausted, and thus the physical body is as perfect an expression of the Augoeides or glorified body of the ego as the limitations of the physical plane will allow, so that not only is the present body of an Adept usually splendidly handsome, but also new body that He may take in a subsequent incarnation is likely to be an almost exact reproduction of the old one, allowing for racial and family differences, because there is nothing to modify it. This freedom from karma gives Them, when for any reason They choose to take new bodies, entire liberty to select a birth in any country or race that may be convenient for the work that They have to do, and thus the nationality of the particular bodies which They happen to be wearing at any given time is not of primary importance. " Complete book can be read at http://www.anandgholap.net/Masters_And_Path-CWL.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Dec 21 20:21:49 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99329 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 04:21:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Dec 2004 04:21:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 04:21:48 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1dc.32d65f3c (14374) for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:21:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1dc.32d65f3c.2efa5040@aol.com> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:21:20 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.37 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Projection of Astral Body - IV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 12/14/04 10:35:26 PM, aupanishad@msn.com writes: In response to an astral travel story by ...Kamal-S-Rajput... >IMHO this cannot be true, unless it is true b___s___. Why do we have >a plethora of hearsay evidence for such things, and not a scintilla >of scientific, or objective, evidence for such things? Each is >entitled to their own fantastic illusions and stories, but, like HPB, >I believe these things need to be investigated much, much deeper to >prevent charlantry and self-delusion. Are we as de >facto "Theosophists" bound to believe everything we hear or see by >subjective psychics? I thought a true or "de facto Theosophist" neither believes nor disbelieves anything... And, especially, those things that can only be verified subjectively... Before thorough study and practice to find out the truth for oneself. Besides, how can we objectively investigate someone else's subjective experience, or even our own for that matter? So, I agree that these things have to be "investigated much, much deeper." But, each one must do it for themselves. I, for one -- having experienced out of body travel during a Near Death Experience, and later under conscious control, and having carefully studied the theosophical principles and metaphysical processes behind such experience to my own satisfaction -- have no trouble believing (at least the possibility) that the stories about it we hear from "subjective psychics" (is there any other kind?) are generally true. But, then, how can we know that any particular story is not a fabrication with the intent to deceive us, or pump up the teller's ego, or told a metaphor whose purpose is to teach us something? On the other hand, how can we ever prove that the inner subjective experiences of another are or are not simply delusions? Why do we find that everyone who supposedly objectively views a crime scene, for example, reports it quite differently afterward? Can anyone unequivocally believe anything anyone else reports experiencing as entirely true? For that matter, can any of us be exactly certain that what we think we subjectively experience ourselves, is not a self created delusion (memory overlays, psychological blocks, etc.) or externally generated illusion (tricks of light, reflections, etc.)? So, I guess all of that means we had better not make any positive statements about what we subjectively believe or disbelieve in, or what other people say they have experienced -- since there is no way to prove any of it to anyone else. :-) LHM From silva_cass@yahoo.com Tue Dec 21 22:11:08 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22145 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 06:11:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Dec 2004 06:11:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.73) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 06:11:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 38238 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Dec 2004 06:11:06 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=txrD+YDeblfOMvxSCkSkNGj/mfzXOhCsizI05Wlnql4Y9dGgsktIu+VZjSTbkeJC6JfsC4Zc+5KMIvPau1lHuf5mxCMTmWLSMQqpA+AnM/+fuMRmZk83fIGQbBSkhT1x1olMZ81yScpsRP4+YM/S69iuRr/p6x8AMBtqlpRs6dM= ; Message-ID: <20041222061106.38236.qmail@web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:11:06 PST Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:11:06 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <1e1.31e57aee.2ef94d5e@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.73 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: fractal evolution X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Leo As dense as I am, I am slowly trying to assimilate your work, it is very abstract and my constructive (non-abstract) mind keeps jumping between the big picture to the man in the picture. My friend once told me I was like a monkey that keeps swinging from tree to tree, and she was very accurate. Anyway, I have been reading Hazrat Inayat Khan, "The Divinity of the Human Soul" Volume X11, Chapters XI-XIII. It is very interesting if you could get a chance to read it. Here is a paragraph. "But what is most interesting is the study of spirit and matter is the nature of vacuum and substance. Substance has a tendency to add substance to itself and to turn all that it attracts into the sam substance, and vacuum has a tendency to make a greater vacuum. This shows that there is a continual struggle between substance and vacuum. Where vacuum can get hold of substance it will turn the substance into vacuum, and where substance is stronger it will turn out vacuum and make substance. The idea behind this is not what we might think. We think of vacuum as being nothing; we rcognize vacuum by contrasting it with substance, but in reality substance has arisen from vacuum; vacuum is the womb of substance. Substance has been composed in vacuum and has developed in it; it has formed itself, it has constructed itself, and it will again be dissolved in the vaccum. There can be no form without a vacuum, visible or invisible (CS; THERE GOES NATURE ABHORS A VACUUM THEORY!). Everywhere there is a vacuum, and we cannot recognize as a vacuum that which our eyes cannot see. The difference between the nature of vacuum and the nature of substance is that vacuum is knowing. In the mineral kingdom the stone is dense; the reason is that it has little vacuum. Animals and birds show greater signs of life and a more pronounced knowing quality because the vacuum in them is greater still; and in man it is even more so. What makes one part of substance knowing and keeps another part without this faculty of knowing is the vacuum in one object and the denseness in another. There is a third thing, we should understand concerning this subject which is of great importance: that which stands between vacuum and substance is capacity. When we look at the sky we feel that it is a vacuum; it seems to be nothing, but in reality it is not nothing, it is capacity. Vacuum-is all-knowing, but it is capacity which enables vacuum to know....There is nothing in this world, whether a stone, a tree, a mountain or a river, water or fire, earth, air anything, which is not in itself a capacity; it cannot exist withou being a capacity. Among Sufis there is a spiritual culture, a culture which recognizes four centres, each centre being a vacuum, or a capacity, for pure intelligence to function in. This shows that man has the greatest possibility of knowing all that is knowable, and he has an even greater capacity than that: to realize all that can be known. If he only knew how he could achieve it! But, one may say, why must substance coming from vacuum learn to know, when vacuum is already the all-knowing state? The all-knowin state is not the same as a limited knowing state.... The whole of manifestation may thus be regarded as a continual conflict between spirit and matter; the spirit developing into matter on the one hand and assimilating matter on the other. What is absorbed from space has the effect upon that which absorbs it of opening it up and of forming a vacuum. (gives example of plant life absorbing more signs of life (intelligence) by absorbing more from space. Where there is a hole this hole has a tendency to become larger, and where there is a little substance there is a tendency for that substance to increase; this shows the tendencies of spirit and matter, the continual conflict that exists between spirit and matter. On the one part of matter there is always a tendency to absorb, and on the part of spirit there is always a tendency to assimilate. The difference between what we call an object and a living being is the difference in the degree of spirit they absorb. The question arises why, if spirit and matter are one and the same, is there then a need for anything or anyone to absorb spirit? Matter is something which is ever changing; it is continually going through a process of change; and we call this change destruction or death, or we say of matter that it is decomposed or destroyed. In reality it has taken another form, but this form is also changed by spirit and made into something else. (gives example of coal into diamond) What is consciousness? Consciousness is the knowing faculty, but it is the knowing faculty when it has some knowledge; it is only then that we call it consciousness. One is conscious of something; consciousness must always be conscious of something. When consciousness is not conscious of anything it is pure intelligence. It is in this realization that the greatest secret of life can be revealed. Cass p.s. have been looking at your diagrams, and was wondering about the zero laya point not being in balance as it differentiates (uncoils) to form the Upper 3 and the Lower 4 planes of consciousness. I don't really know what I am trying to say here, but if the zero lay point was central, then shouldnt it uncoil from 3.5? maintaining a balance or tension of positive negative fields? Anyway lots of ho ho ho to yourself and family this Christmas leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: Dear Cass, The notes on my ABC theory are at: http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics Some of the reference illustrations are listed below in my previous commentary appended here. I would be happy to answer any questions you may have about them, or hear any comments or suggestions you might make. Best wishes, Leon In a message dated 12/14/04 9:12:33 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: >Dear Leon >I am very happy for you to share my ruminations with anyone. Your reply >is fascinating and I am now going to print and read it quietly, in the >sun, on my back verandah. Could you please resend me your website on your >ABC Theory so that I can look at it in this new light. >Many thanks >Cass > LeonMaurer@aol.com wrote: Dear Cass, Your observations about the relationship that String theory has to theosophy is right on the nose. For a "non scientist," I admire your perceptive understanding and integration of such erudite subjects. However, my scientific juices have been stimulated long before string theories came along -- ever since I first read and understood Einstein's theory of relativity when I was 12 years old, and my father, who was an alchemist, professional chemist, and 33rd degree Mason, explained it to me. :-) As it is, I've been studying String theory, and have read Greene's book as well as all the other literature referring to Superstring/M-brane theories (now M theory) -- since I first came up with the ABC theory sometime in the late 60's -- before any scientist published anything about it. The development of the ABC theory was (besides what "mysteries" my dad introduced me to when very young) the culmination of over 20 years of study of all the ancient mystical and occult literature referenced in the SD, as well as later writers, from Leadbeater, to Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Crowley, among many others -- coupled with a serious study of relativity and quantum theories since the late 30's (along with a fortunate encounter, and over five years of direct teaching during the late 70s and early 80s, from an "Adept" Tibetan Lama who was also a nuclear physicist that, before his initiation, worked on the A-bomb). I was also inspired when I realized in the 70s that Einstein got his idea of E=mc^2 directly from the Secret Doctrine (which, I later found, was given him by Robert Millikan when he was in his late teens or early twenties). See: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html If you examine what I've written on the ABC theory (check the Theos-World or theos-talk, and Brain-Mind archives, as well as my ABC website) you'll see that ABC -- which is identical to the metaphysics hidden in the Secret Doctrine (under metaphors and symbols, as well as "in and around the words and between the lines" as HPB advised her "intuitive students' to study her writing) -- exactly conforms with the latest developments in M-theory -- which, incidentally, is the spin-off of Superstring theory that merges all the former string theories (of which there were five). In the ABC theory, if you follow the origin of the universal fields out of the zero-point surrounded by its "spinergy" and examine the meditations on it. (See: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html) -- you will understand that the continuous lines of primal force that form the entire set of fractally involved fields or "globes," are the "Superstrings" (which vary in frequency-energy from globe to globe) -- while the woven surfaces of the globes are the "M(em)branes." Actually, the scientists have much of it wrong -- since they still refuse to consider consciousness as the function of the zero-point itself, or that the "multiple" or "parallel" universes that can form from the infinite (yet non-dimensional, thus abstract) polar directions of their circling spinergy (abstract motion) -- must follow the same fundamental laws of physics based on the initial cyclic periodicity of the "spinergy" around each pole. :-) Their trouble is that they rely on their contrived mathematics to explain the "images" of their "hyperspace" fields -- but make their interpretations of the apparent separation between the different Membranes based on a false presumption that consciousness is caused by (or an epiphenomena of) the physical universe, and that there is no connection between the zero-points -- that, actually, are everywhere. Didn't the ancient mystic philosophers and theosophy say, "The center of the universe is everywhere and its circumference nowhere?" And, isn't it obvious that all the Superstrings of force around each globe are connected to each other through their zero-point centers -- which, wherever they are located in this 3-D physical space-time continuum, are also at the center of the universe, and therefore, must be in direct communion with the Absolute primal source itself? The symbolic (continuous, spiral vortex 2-D fractal diagram) of these multidimensional fields within fields, etc., enables one to clearly visualize this. See: http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Invlutionfldmirror2.gif My interconnected geometric-topological view (without relying on complex multidimensional mathematical symbology) of the inner fractal nature of the fields, therefore, is much closer to the actual reality. BTW, this is the "Super-symmetry" as well as the basis of the "graviton" they are looking for (in all the wrong places :-). In addition, ABC goes much further, since it not only synthesizes relativity and quantum theories, but also explains all psychic phenomena, as well as the genetic biology and physiology of all life forms -- besides completely vindicating all theosophical teachings about the seven fold nature of our being, as well as the basis of both karma and reincarnation -- as irrevocable facts of nature. If you can imagine these "Superstrings" as dual (positive and negative) lines of force that wind spirally (like a DNA molecule) as they weave (actually, knit) the globes, you can understand that their cyclic vibrations -- whose peaks meet between them (like the "bases" between the spiral strings of the DNA) -- are the fundamental "strings" that form the basis of all the physical "elements" or fundamental particles (such as electrons, photons, quarks, sub quarks, etc. -- ad infinitum). Since all the descending fields are "coadunate but not consubstantial," these vibrational patterns are replicated (inductively and resonantly) on each fractal level (although at different phase orders of frequency-energy spectrums). Thus, we can understand how the holographic patterns of "forms" on the astral body level determines the forms of the physical body, ("as above, so below")... And, why the vibrational memory of all the actions and forms on all the multidimensional globes ends up in the "spinergy" -- that forms the basis of the next universal (Manvantara) cycle -- after this one goes to sleep when all its energy entropically winds down. You are correct when you say that the current developments in M-theory is getting closer and closer to HPB's metaphysics. Once, these scientists realize the connection between the zero-points of consciousness with their hyperspace fields, they will finally completely vindicate HPB and her Masters -- who knew all about this countless ages ago. Let's hope that happens soon, and all people realize these truths, before their current materialism, greed and selfishness brings this whole world down around our ears, everything resolves back to chaos -- and evolution is set back another million years... (As HPB warned might happen if theosophical knowledge, and the truths of karma and reincarnation, isn't imbedded in everyone's minds before this century is half over.) So let's hope for the best, and keep on plugging away trying to "spread broadcast" these truths as far and wide as possible. Best wishes and warm regards, Leon http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/LHM.index.html P.S. Let me know if you mind my posting this letter to the theosophical and consciousness study forums. In a message dated 12/13/04 7:18:05 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: >Dear Leon >Saw a show on TV yesterday called the Elegant Universe hosted by physicist >Brian Greene. It spoke about a new theory called The String Theory, now >called the M (Magic,Mystery,Matrix) Theory by Ed Whitten, who they claim >is the foremost physicist in the USA. >Basically it stated that the laws relating to the Theory of Relativity >and the laws of Quantum Mechanics are conflicting, and that the holy grail >of physics is to find one single theory that governs everything. >Gabrielle Veneziano in 1968, while looking for a clue to explore the "glue" >that bind the protons together found an equation in an old book which showed >that particles of the atoms are not points but strings, that strings vibrate >and dance at different rates and produce different patterns (life forms?) >It also said that strings need move in more than 3 dimensions and that >we are living on a membrane (string stretched) inside our three dimension >and parallel with a higher dimension . >The string theorists are saying that besides our 3 dimensions plus time, >there are another 6 dimensions, or degrees of freedom that the membrane >is part of. A 3 dimensional membrane that floats on a parallel universe >and that parallel universes are ruled by different laws of physics. >They are still searching for the Graviton (the gravity factor) and something >called Super Symmetry, >Anyway, as a non scientist, it sounded a lot like Theosophy, and in Occult >Chemistry by Annie Besant and Charles Leadbeater I saw diagrams of what >look like strings? >I hope this stimulates your scientific juices as it certainly made me feel >that science is coming closer and closer to what HPB said 100 years ago. >Regards >Cass Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Dec 22 02:27:42 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 29675 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 10:27:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Dec 2004 10:27:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 10:27:39 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1c2.21d30447 (17377) for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 05:27:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1c2.21d30447.2efaa60f@aol.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 05:27:27 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.37 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Westerm Islam X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 I think that proselytizing or advertising ANY religion on this forum is a direct violation of the theosophical principles, as well as a direct contradiction of the non sectarian ideas promulgated by theosophy to which this forum is specifically designed as a place for their discussion. Theosophists do not need any personal God to worship, pray or chant to, or any rituals to practice in accord with someone else's beliefs... Since, it's teachings enjoins us each to practice whatever yoga or meditation we choose for ourselves -- based on our own individual self devised and self determined study and efforts to attain "Self realization." In this light, "God" is simply the source of that spark of the universal Self, Consciousness, or Spirit that resides within each of us, and needs no propitiation to an external personalized "Lord" labeled as "Beneficent" and "Merciful" that resides outside of us. As each of us must become our own Judge and Master -- group prayer or chanting to an external "Lord" serves only to reinforce that separateness -- which theosophy teaches is the ultimate sin. The object of theosophy, then, is to individually realize our unity with that Universal Self -- of which we are already (although for some, unknowingly) an integral part. This is he only way that "Universal Brotherhood" can become a reality throughout the world without any distinctions, and bring together all those who are now separated by their different religious beliefs and practices. LHM In a message dated 12/16/04 1:10:12 AM, aupanishad@msn.com writes: >I have formed a group which is for those interested in a Western (Euro-Amercan) >form of Islam which I gave a name called called "Interstitial-Islam" in >order to try to bring us closer to "La ilaha il'Allah" rather than try >to require Western Islam in mandatory prayers (Friday prayer would remain), >strange clothes, hijabs,and other paraphernalia. This will be a spiritual, >not physical movement, that will allow anyone to chant "La ilaha il'Allah" >all day with no ourward conflict. Thus is like Japanese japa (or repetition >of a Buddha's name, or even a Sufu dkir.) I hope that some will come to >see what this new relogion is all about, and I would like you to advertise >it for me. There will be no sects or outward fighting, nor any jihad >except the "jihad of the nafs". Those who wish to keep their Easteern >garb are welcome to, but more impotant is to, as Paul said about 'pray >without ceasing.' we Muslims must remember our Beneficent and Merciful >Lord. The object will to become One with the One Supreme Lord of the >universe for His rewards, and not to become absorbred in Him. This would >give a new light to the Qir'an, and bring us closer to the Prophet (PBUH).If >any are interested, please send me your houghts. > > >"Salaam Alaikum," >(Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali >"La ilaha il'Allah!" From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Dec 22 03:35:30 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64399 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 11:35:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Dec 2004 11:35:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 11:35:29 -0000 Received: from [209.179.140.8] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Ch4hg-0004ZV-Cw; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 06:30:55 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE; b=BJHpCkE9aNL9Dj3wsTvPpz12+7g+8yOgtajpaiuM1o9aLNbXFtr10NGuu4nmdpXt; To: "AAA-Dal" Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 03:21:38 -0800 Message-ID: <000801c4e819$b1c30130$088cb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7956e352363891ce352f8bc75d55e91ee3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.65 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.140.8 Subject: 2005 SEASONS GREETINGS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 2005 Seasons Greetings The circling path of time, Through starry spaces wide, Hath turned Earth toward the Sun once more- And 'tis the Christmas-tide. Toward Light and Life we move, With hearts refreshed we sing, The seed-time of old Earth renewed- To all this message bring: Good will to all that lives; A waking-time of heart -- In service that the Masters teach, Rejoice what e'er the part. And this-the Christ in all- And all men brothers be; One Source of Light and Life and Love! The Soul's own radiancy! -o0O0o- Best wishes Valerie and Dallas TenBroeck ======================================**** IDEAS TO CONSIDER: Be curious always! For knowledge will not acquire you; You must acquire it. Time has a wonderful way of weeding out the trivial. "God" is a circle, the center of which is everywhere, and the circumference nowhere." Pascal To perceive the mystery of life, desire always to reach the innermost. To perceive the limitations of things, desire always to possess them. Lao-tse Prayer: Many of us loose confidence in prayer because we do not recognize the answers. We ask for strength, and God gives us difficulties. We pray for wisdom, and God sends us problems, the solution of which develops wisdom. We plead for prosperity, and God sends us a brain and brawn. We ask for courage, and God gives us dangers to overcome. We ask for favors, and God gives us opportunities. A friend is one to whom one may pour out all the contents of one's heart - chaff and grain together - knowing - that the gentlest of hands will take and sift it - keep what is worth keeping, and, with the breath of kindness, blow the rest away. Arab Proverb We cannot become what we need to be by remaining where we are. M. DuPree [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From perrycoles@yahoo.com Wed Dec 22 03:46:52 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: perrycoles@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 29761 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 11:46:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Dec 2004 11:46:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.16) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 11:46:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n11.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Dec 2004 11:45:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.120] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Dec 2004 11:45:47 -0000 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:45:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041221033446.91839.qmail@web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 22669 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.16 From: "Perry Coles" X-Originating-IP: 203.59.42.115 Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and reincarnation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=93736069 X-Yahoo-Profile: perrycoles Hello Cass, I agree life if full of risks and challenges. The thing I find is there are usually so many ways of looking at the same thing. Depending on which angle you come at it from, your own background experience and past conditioning. Every action according to theosophical teachings has an effect and the nature of that effect is determined by the motives and intentions of the act. The overriding ethic in this situation is would I allow a child loved one or myself to die because of refusing a blood transfusion for me the answer is an instant and clear no way! There will be effects from that choice. There no doubt may be some `negative' effects but I am sure many positive as well. Aren't most of our choices a mixture of both anyway. Regards=20 Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > Dear Perry > I am starting to think that we have replaced the fear of hell with the fear of bad karma? > Cass >=20 > Perry Coles wrote: >=20 >=20 > Dear Dallas and All, > If `Compassion is the Law of Laws' then surely this can be act of > compassion which will have its own karmic effects based on motive as > you've said. >=20 > I have seen programs on people who have received organ donations and > then have taken on some of the attributes of that person so what you > say is defiantly not without merit and worthy of serious consideration. > (there was an excellent program on Discovery channel on this) >=20 > However for me I feel the act of giving of oneself for the sake of > another is a selfless and compassionate act. >=20 > While the taking of blood or an organ may have a `negative' effect on > us to a greater or lesser degree I cant believe that the underling > skandas we've acquired over perhaps hundreds of lifetimes will be > totally over run by the life saving organ or especially blood transfusion. >=20 > If we all of a sudden get a taste for rap music or MacDonald's, well > so be it I am still the same person underneath. > And have been given an extra opportunity to work though karma and > hopefully be of service to others in some way. > If we only look at a negative then that's all we'll see. >=20 > Regards >=20 > Perry >=20 >=20 >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" > wrote: > > Dec. 20 2004 > >=20 > > Re: Blood Transfusions, Organ donations, etc. > > Transfusions and reincarnation > >=20 > > Dear Perry: > >=20 > > The application of technical medical processes is one thing. The motive > > behind the application is another. > >=20 > > The processes of asepsis in hospitals and clinics are well known but not > > always applied meticulously.=20 > >=20 > > But who knows the effect of the moral contagions inherent in > another's body > > as a result of their life and karma? If and when this (a portion of > > another's Karma) is injected or introduced into another living body, a > > portion of the Karma comes along with the physical blood or organ=20 > There are > > enough cases on record of the subsequent feelings and problems that have > > been found to be consequent on the use of these processes.=20 > >=20 > > THEOSOPHY deals with laws and explanations and observations > impartially.=20 > >=20 > > It shows the astral structures and the "pranic-life currents"=20 > underlie the > > physical organs, blood and other structures. It says they impart > their own > > imprint in terms of life-memories and strengths (or weaknesses) wherever > > they go. The physical blood or organ conveys them. They are also > conveyed > > by massage, and acupressure for instance, and above all by the inner and > > powerful WILL of the doctor, nurse massager or practitioner.=20 > >=20 > > The blood or organs of another person, no matter how closely > related, are > > different from ours.=20 > >=20 > > THEOSOPHY does not recommend such exchanges. I know this seems to > violate > > current rules and attitudes. Next question is WHY ? > >=20 > > How we make application is another thing altogether, as the moral > aspect is > > involved and Karma is formed there, based on motive always. > >=20 > > Lets ask another question. If THEOSOPHY is right in this, what > effect has > > such an exchange on the karma of the two Egos involved -- for their > future > > in their present life, and in a future life upon reincarnation ? Is > this > > intimate relationship continued and desirable? What will be the > karma of > > those who facilitate or participate in these processes? Is that not > to be > > thought of?=20 > >=20 > > I know this all sound vague and fuzzy, but that is because the > matter is yet > > to be seized and made a part of investigation. Who believes in > > reincarnation anyway? The Chinese systems of the meridians in the body, > > whereon is built their system of acupuncture and acupressure; the > Indian > > Ayurvedic lore is well aware of bodily meridians and interlinks, and > > practice here in the West of several kinds including Chiropractic is > also > > built on this knowledge. Who has made a systematic investigation of > these > > systems and ancient knowledge?=20 > >=20 > > No one "likes" fire to burn, or water to "drown." However, if > misused they > > do that impartially and without malice. > >=20 > > None of us are yet able to determine the future of another, in this or a > > future body.. If however we can use and apply the best techniques > to save > > life we do that with the motive of assistance. > >=20 > > As for myself, (not a child) I have given strict instructions that > no blood > > transfusions are to be made in case I need them medically, nor are any > > "heroic measures" to keep the body "alive" are to be used in case of > coma or > > other determination of the passing away of consciousness. I do this in > > advance of any situation where I might be unable to assure medical > or legal > > authorities that it is my desire to let my body die if it cannot > heal and > > revive itself . But I am an adult, and, taking full > responsibility, I can > > decide for myself what I will accept or not as treatment for my body. > >=20 > > It is quite ridiculous to fear death. We don't fear sleeping, do > we? And > > who is to say that our consciousness will return on awakening to the > same > > body? In case of continued wakefulness under forced sleep > deprivation it > > has been demonstrated that eventually these cause sleep or death.=20 > >=20 > > But to decide for a child -- that is a matter for parents to consider as > > they have that duty, under Karma. I know this is an "open door."=20 > But again > > THEOSOPHY does not dogmatize for specific cases It says in effect: Use > > your common sense. Discover the Principles that are operative in > all cases, > > and apply them.=20 > >=20 > > In these days, to maintain a sure and fearless belief in > reincarnation is > > rare. But then, who has yet seen or discussed the matter with the > REAL INNER > > SPIRIT of any man or woman so far ? [ Or even in meditation with > one's own > > Inner SELF ? Only THEOSOPHY speaks of this, and indicates ways in > which it > > may be done.]=20 > >=20 > > No, our sole knowledge is that the INNER SPIRIT, our Real Self, requires > > specifically a continuity in a single body; and its condition, before or > > after the death of that present body, is quite unknown and unprovable so > > far. Current beliefs state that the body and the indwelling SPIRIT > are the > > same thing. But are they?=20 > >=20 > > No, THEOSOPHY does not dogmatize, but it does offer the rules and > facts of > > life, as it know it too be. > >=20 > > Dal > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Dallas > >=20 > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@y...]=20 > > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:47 PM > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Hi Dallas, > >=20 > > I hope your well , > >=20 > > As with all things we as individuals need to try and use wise > > discernment and certainly when it comes to ourselves our choices are > > our own based on our knowledge and understanding of occult principles. > >=20 > > But when it comes to children who lives could have been saved by a > > blood transfusion, I simply find it outrageous that these children > > have been allowed to die over a discission made by the parents because > > of the blind following of dogma. > >=20 > > I hope no theosophical student would ever follow any theosophical > > statement blindly no matter who wrote it. > >=20 > > Theosophical study is one as you know that takes lifetimes of work and > > is not meant to be followed blindly but rather Self realised. > > The information may or may not be correct we can never presume that it > > is correct especially if a persons life other than our own hangs in > > the balance. > > What we choose for ourselves is another matter. > >=20 > > Sorry to hear you've been in hospital hope alls ok! > >=20 > > Regards > >=20 > > Perry > >=20 > >=20 > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" > > wrote: > > > Dec 19 2004 > > >=20 > > > Dear Perry: > > >=20 > > > What you say is correct and reflects the current medical view. > > >=20 > > > They know nothing of Occultism. > > >=20 > > > Preserving life in an old, decrepit and almost useless body is > > ridiculous in > > > the face of individual immortality and reincarnation -- which are > > spoofed at > > > by present day materialism in medicine and even law. > > >=20 > > > Let me put it this way: THEOSOPHY teaches a number of things that > > > materialism currently does not know anything about. That does not make > > > THEOSOPHY either dogmatic or wrong.=20 > > >=20 > > > But it ought to encourage deeper research. > > >=20 > > > The application of knowledge is always left to the one who provides > > it. The > > > motive for providing it is the desideratum of Karma. > > >=20 > > > In THEOSOPHY ethics and morals are everything. Science does not yet > > accept > > > those.=20 > > >=20 > > > So it is up to us to use or not use. > > >=20 > > > Dallas > > >=20 > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@y...]=20 > > > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 7:50 PM > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Hello Dallas, > > > I was a little concerned over your comments on blood transfusions and > > > organ donations. > > > As an ex JW I know the needless and pointless suffering and waste of > > > life that can result from these type of dogmatic beliefs. > > >=20 > > > The ethical dimension to this is to me not just a matter of our > > > attachment to the body and/or the occult effects of having someone > > > else's blood in our veins but if we are able to extend our life though > > > either a blood transfusion or organ donation are we not duty bound to > > > use whatever means we can to either save someone else's > > > (especially!!!) life or our own as long as it is not at the cost of > > > another's? > > >=20 > > > The occult consequences of these procedures while perhaps coming at a > > > price may be far outweighed by the good we can do while in > incarnation. > > >=20 > > > Perry > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" > > > wrote: > > > > Dec 18 2004 > > > >=20 > > > > Dear Vera: > > > >=20 > > > > You asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does > > THEOSOPHY > > > > offer anything. > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > THEOSOPHY does not recommend either of these for the reason that the > > > astral > > > > body and Karma attached to those are always incompatible and > > > dangerous to > > > > some extent.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Physical medicine and the science of modern healing look on the > > > human body > > > > as a fairly adaptable series if interchangeable parts - which is > > > not so. > > > >=20 > > > > The Universe organizes through the astral body each person with > > > their own > > > > particular set of personalized and individual organs and substances. > > > These > > > > are always related to the individual's Karma.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > To some extent Medical science recognizes incompatibilities such as > > > in blood > > > > transfusions and the compatibility (by DNA testing) of proposed > organ > > > > transplants (heart, lungs, etc. ) and cures for cancer attacked > > > parts of the > > > > body.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > One of our problems is psychological: Most fear death. Those who > > > have had > > > > NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES ( NDE ) have lost such fear as they > > realize that > > > > they as SPIRITUAL SOULS survive physical death. Med. Sc. Tries to > > > preserve > > > > "life"-- at any cost, in the most shattered of physical bodies. > > > >=20 > > > > THEOSOPHY states all bodies are replaceable under nature's rules and > > > laws. > > > > And while everyone grieves for the loss of a loved one, There is the > > > > knowledge that under Karma we will all meet again, and love and > > live and > > > > work together, in the future. [ For example, we don't grieve when > > > one goes > > > > to sleep before another does? We know that we will wake up and > > continue > > > > life in a fresh day. It is so with the larger separation of > > "death." ] > > > >=20 > > > > I attach here an article written generally on this.=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > THE CURE OF DISEASES > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > MORTAL ills and the needs of the stomach rank next after the > > instinct of > > > > self-preservation among all the subjects which engage the attention > > > of the > > > > race.=20 > > > > If we do not go on living we cannot do the work we think there is to > > > do; if > > > > we remain hungry we will lose the power to work properly or to > > > enjoy, and at > > > > last come to the door of death. From bad or scanty food follows a > > > train of > > > > physical ills called generally disease.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Disease reaches us also through too much food. So in every direction > > > these > > > > ills attack us; even when our feeding is correct and sufficient it > > > is found > > > > that we fall a prey because our Karma, settled by ourselves is some > > > previous > > > > life, ordains that we enter on this one handicapped by the > > > hereditary taint > > > > due to the wickedness or the errors of our fathers and mothers.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > And the records of science show that the taint in the blood or the > > > lymph may > > > > jump over many lives, attacking with virulence some generation > > > distant very > > > > far from the source.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > What wonder, then that the cure of disease is an all-absorbing > > > subject with > > > > every one! The Christian knows that it is decreed by Almighty God > > > that He > > > > will visit the sins of the fathers upon the children even to the > > > third and > > > > fourth generation, and the non-believer sees that by some power in > > > nature > > > > the penalty is felt even so far. > > > >=20 > > > > All of this has given to the schools of mental and so-called > > > "metaphysical" > > > > healing a strong pull on the fears, the feelings, the wishes, and > > > the bodies > > > > of those to whom they address themselves, and especially in the > United > > > > States.=20 > > > > That there is more attention given to the subject in America seems > > > true to > > > > those who have been on the other side of the Atlantic and noticed > > > how small > > > > is the proportion of people there who know anything about the > > > subject. But > > > > in the United States in every town many can be found who know about > > > these > > > > schools and practice after their methods. Why it has more hold here > > > can be > > > > left to conjecture, as the point under consideration is why it has > > > any hold > > > > at all. It is something like patent medicine.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Offer a cure to people for their many ills, and they will take it > > > up; offer > > > > it cheap, and they will use it; offer it as an easy method, and they > > > will > > > > rush for it under certain conditions.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Metaphysical healing is easy for some because it declares, first, > > > that no > > > > money need be paid to doctors for medicine; second, that medical > > > fluids and > > > > drugs may be dispensed with; and third that it is easily learned and > > > > practiced. The difficulties that arise out of the necessities of > > > logic are > > > > not present for those who never studied it, but are somewhat > > potent with > > > > those who reason correctly; - but that is not usual for the general > > > run of > > > > minds.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > They see certain effects and accept the assumed cause as the right > > > one. But > > > > many persons will not even investigate the system, because they > > think it > > > > requires them to postulate the non-existence of that which they see > > > before > > > > their eyes.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > The statements quoted from the monthly Christian Science in March > > > PATH are > > > > bars in the way of such minds. If they could be induced to just > > try the > > > > method offered for cure, belief might result, for effects indeed > often > > > > follow.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > But the popular mind is not in favor of "mind cure," and more > > > prominence is > > > > given in the daily papers to cases of death under it than to cures. > > > And very > > > > full reports always appear of a case such as one in March, where > > "faith > > > > curers," in order to restore life, went to praying over the dead > > > body of one > > > > of the members of a believing family. > > > >=20 > > > > During a recent tour over this country from the Atlantic to the > > > Pacific and > > > > back, I had the opportunity of meeting hundreds of disciples of > these > > > > schools, and found in nearly all cases that they were not addicted > > > to logic > > > > but calmly ignored very plain propositions, satisfied that if > > cures were > > > > accomplished the cause claimed must be the right one, and almost > > without > > > > exception they denied the existence of evil or pain or suffering.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > There was a concurrence of testimony from all to show that the > > > dominant idea > > > > in their minds was the cure of their bodily ills and the > > continuance of > > > > health. The accent was not on the beauty of holiness or the value to > > > them > > > > and the community of a right moral system and right life, but on the > > > cure of > > > > their diseases.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > So the conclusion has been forced home that all these schools exist > > > because > > > > people desire to be well more than they desire to be good, although > > > they do > > > > not object to goodness if that shall bring wholeness. > > > >=20 > > > > And, indeed, one does not have to be good to gain the benefit of the > > > > teachings. It is enough to have confidence, to assert boldly that > > > this does > > > > not exist and that that has no power to hurt one.=20 > > > > I do not say the teachers of the "science" agree with me herein, but > > > only > > > > that whether you are good or bad the results will follow the firm > > > practice > > > > of the method enjoined, irrespective of the ideas of the teachers. > > > >=20 > > > > For in pure mind-cure as compared with its congener "Christian > > > Science," you > > > > do not have to believe in Jesus and the gospels, yet the same > > > results are > > > > claimed, for Jesus taught that whatever you prayed for with faith, > > > that you > > > > should have. > > > >=20 > > > > Scientific research discloses that the bodies of our race are > > > infected with > > > > taints that cause nearly all of our diseases, and school after > > school of > > > > medicine has tried and still tries to find the remedy that will > > > dislodge the > > > > foulness in the blood.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > This is scientific, since it seeks the real physical cause; > > metaphysical > > > > healing says it cures, but cannot prove that the cause is destroyed > > > and not > > > > merely palliated.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > That there is some room for doubt history shows us, for none will > > > deny that > > > > many pure thinking and acting pair have brought forth children who > > > displayed > > > > some taint derived from a distant ancestor. Evidently their pure > > > individual > > > > thoughts had no power over the great universal development of the > > matter > > > > used by those human bodies. > > > >=20 > > > > Turning now to medicine we find the Italian Count Mattei > > promulgating a > > > > system of cure by the homeopathic use of subtle vegetable essences > > > which may > > > > well give pause to those who would make universal the curing by > > faith or > > > > mind alone. Some of his liquids will instantly stop a violent pain, > > > restore > > > > sight, give back hearing, and dissipate abnormal growths. His > > > globules will > > > > make a drunken man sober, and, given to the nurse who suckles a > > > babe, will > > > > cure the child who takes the milk. The drunkard and the child do not > > > think > > > > about or have faith in the remedies, yet they cure. Is it not > > better to > > > > restore health by physical means and leave the high teachings of the > > > > healers, all taken from well know sources, for the benefit of our > > moral > > > > nature?=20 > > > >=20 > > > > And if Christian healers read these lines, should they not > > remember that > > > > when the prophet restored the widow's son he used physical means - > > > his own > > > > magnetism applied simultaneously to every member of the child's > > > body, and > > > > Jesus, when the woman who touched his garment was cured, lost a > > > portion of > > > > his vitality - not his thoughts - for he said "virtue" had gone > > out from > > > > him?=20 > > > > The Apostle also gave directions that if any were sick the others > > should > > > > assemble about the bed and anoint with oil, laying on their hands > > > meanwhile: > > > > simply physical therapeutics following a long line of ancient > > precedent > > > > dating back to Noah.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Moses taught how to cure diseases and to disinfect places where > > > contagion > > > > lurked. It was not by using the high power of thought, but by > > processes > > > > deemed by him to be effectual, such as sprinkling blood of animals > > > > slaughtered in peculiar circumstances.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Without declaring for or against his methods, it is very certain >=20 > =3D=3D=3D message truncated =3D=3D=3D >=20=09=09 > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! =96 Try it today!=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eletzerich@yahoo.com Wed Dec 22 04:14:52 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69694 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 12:14:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Dec 2004 12:14:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web54106.mail.yahoo.com) (206.190.37.241) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 12:14:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 25256 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Dec 2004 12:14:50 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=hjQpfvh6ikmmu5Rm7GfsKSGKjs0zTE8uDQyhnD9l34ybhhR2rDwarQiWg1o/TIznOD14rr3ryK5fwi5MgC9TpGj1UWRxDyQ/tuJSv77s1bZbRMSzlbXHkTDJ3dS+HvnJ8Aau9W4EO3dN78sUGs12ICCiYKKcafkfi/eN+wedB0E= ; Message-ID: <20041222121450.25254.qmail@web54106.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [83.171.216.254] by web54106.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 04:14:50 PST Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 04:14:50 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 206.190.37.241 From: Erica Letzerich Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and reincarnation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419 X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =20 Well it would be quite selfish to refuse to give blood for someone because = of karmic consequences. The very refusal has already generated a karma. Of = course in occultism it seems that there are reasons for some to refuse to d= o so. But when we have members of our family that needs help, there is no d= oubt that such help has to be supplied. I donated blood many times, for per= sons that I know and also for members of my family. And I have no problem w= ith that as I believe the worst "sin" would be to refuse to do so. But I do= n't know how I would react in the case I would need blood. =20 Of course when I die I am not planning to donate all my organs but to be cr= emated, even if I know that so many people need organs to go on in life. I = am not against organ donation and maybe if someone close to me would need p= robably I would donate. I think such matters as blood transfusion and organ= donations are of extremely personal nature and personal decisions about su= ch matters should be respected. =20 Erica =20 Perry Coles wrote: Hello Cass, I agree life if full of risks and challenges. The thing I find is there are usually so many ways of looking at the same thing. Depending on which angle you come at it from, your own background experience and past conditioning. Every action according to theosophical teachings has an effect and the nature of that effect is determined by the motives and intentions of the act. The overriding ethic in this situation is would I allow a child loved one or myself to die because of refusing a blood transfusion for me the answer is an instant and clear no way! There will be effects from that choice. There no doubt may be some `negative' effects but I am sure many positive as well. Aren't most of our choices a mixture of both anyway. Regards=20 Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > Dear Perry > I am starting to think that we have replaced the fear of hell with the fear of bad karma? > Cass >=20 > Perry Coles=20 wrote: >=20 >=20 > Dear Dallas and All, > If `Compassion is the Law of Laws' then surely this can be act of > compassion which will have its own karmic effects based on motive as > you've said. >=20 > I have seen programs on people who have received organ donations and > then have taken on some of the attributes of that person so what you > say is defiantly not without merit and worthy of serious consideration. > (there was an excellent program on Discovery channel on this) >=20 > However for me I feel the act of giving of oneself for the sake of > another is a selfless and compassionate act. >=20 > While the taking of blood or an organ may have a `negative' effect on > us to a greater or lesser degree I cant believe that the underling > skandas we've acquired over perhaps hundreds of lifetimes will be > totally over run by the life saving organ or especially blood transfusion. >=20 > If we all of a sudden get a taste for rap music or MacDonald's, well > so be it I am still the same person underneath. > And have been given an extra opportunity to work though karma and > hopefully be of service to others in some way. > If we only look at a negative then that's all we'll see. >=20 > Regards >=20 > Perry >=20 >=20 >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" > wrote: > > Dec. 20 2004 > >=20 > > Re: Blood Transfusions, Organ donations, etc. > > Transfusions and reincarnation > >=20 > > Dear Perry: > >=20 > > The application of technical medical processes is one thing. The motive > > behind the application is another. > >=20 > > The processes of asepsis in hospitals and clinics are well known but not > > always applied meticulously.=20 > >=20 > > But who knows the effect of the moral contagions inherent in > another's body > > as a result of their life and karma? If and when this (a portion of > > another's Karma) is injected or introduced into another living body, a > > portion of the Karma comes along with the physical blood or organ=20 > There are > > enough cases on record of the subsequent feelings and problems that have > > been found to be consequent on the use of these processes.=20 > >=20 > > THEOSOPHY deals with laws and explanations and observations > impartially.=20 > >=20 > > It shows the astral structures and the "pranic-life currents"=20 > underlie the > > physical organs, blood and other structures. It says they impart > their own > > imprint in terms of life-memories and strengths (or weaknesses) wherever > > they go. The physical blood or organ conveys them. They are also > conveyed > > by massage, and acupressure for instance, and above all by the inner and > > powerful WILL of the doctor, nurse massager or practitioner.=20 > >=20 > > The blood or organs of another person, no matter how closely > related, are > > different from ours.=20 > >=20 > > THEOSOPHY does not recommend such exchanges. I know this seems to > violate > > current rules and attitudes. Next question is WHY ? > >=20 > > How we make application is another thing altogether, as the moral > aspect is > > involved and Karma is formed there, based on motive always. > >=20 > > Lets ask another question. If THEOSOPHY is right in this, what > effect has > > such an exchange on the karma of the two Egos involved -- for their > future > > in their present life, and in a future life upon reincarnation ? Is > this > > intimate relationship continued and desirable? What will be the > karma of > > those who facilitate or participate in these processes? Is that not > to be > > thought of?=20 > >=20 > > I know this all sound vague and fuzzy, but that is because the > matter is yet > > to be seized and made a part of investigation. Who believes in > > reincarnation anyway? The Chinese systems of the meridians in the body, > > whereon is built their system of acupuncture and acupressure; the > Indian > > Ayurvedic lore is well aware of bodily meridians and interlinks, and > > practice here in the West of several kinds including Chiropractic is > also > > built on this knowledge. Who has made a systematic investigation of > these > > systems and ancient knowledge?=20 > >=20 > > No one "likes" fire to burn, or water to "drown." However, if > misused they > > do that impartially and without malice. > >=20 > > None of us are yet able to determine the future of another, in this or a > > future body.. If however we can use and apply the best techniques > to save > > life we do that with the motive of assistance. > >=20 > > As for myself, (not a child) I have given strict instructions that > no blood > > transfusions are to be made in case I need them medically, nor are any > > "heroic measures" to keep the body "alive" are to be used in case of > coma or > > other determination of the passing away of consciousness. I do this in > > advance of any situation where I might be unable to assure medical > or legal > > authorities that it is my desire to let my body die if it cannot > heal and > > revive itself . But I am an adult, and, taking full > responsibility, I can > > decide for myself what I will accept or not as treatment for my body. > >=20 > > It is quite ridiculous to fear death. We don't fear sleeping, do > we? And > > who is to say that our consciousness will return on awakening to the > same > > body? In case of continued wakefulness under forced sleep > deprivation it > > has been demonstrated that eventually these cause sleep or death.=20 > >=20 > > But to decide for a child -- that is a matter for parents to consider as > > they have that duty, under Karma. I know this is an "open door."=20 > But again > > THEOSOPHY does not dogmatize for specific cases It says in effect: Use > > your common sense. Discover the Principles that are operative in > all cases, > > and apply them.=20 > >=20 > > In these days, to maintain a sure and fearless belief in > reincarnation is > > rare. But then, who has yet seen or discussed the matter with the > REAL INNER > > SPIRIT of any man or woman so far ? [ Or even in meditation with > one's own > > Inner SELF ? Only THEOSOPHY speaks of this, and indicates ways in > which it > > may be done.]=20 > >=20 > > No, our sole knowledge is that the INNER SPIRIT, our Real Self, requires > > specifically a continuity in a single body; and its condition, before or > > after the death of that present body, is quite unknown and unprovable so > > far. Current beliefs state that the body and the indwelling SPIRIT > are the > > same thing. But are they?=20 > >=20 > > No, THEOSOPHY does not dogmatize, but it does offer the rules and > facts of > > life, as it know it too be. > >=20 > > Dal > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Dallas > >=20 > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@y...]=20 > > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:47 PM > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Hi Dallas, > >=20 > > I hope your well , > >=20 > > As with all things we as individuals need to try and use wise > > discernment and certainly when it comes to ourselves our choices are > > our own based on our knowledge and understanding of occult principles. > >=20 > > But when it comes to children who lives could have been saved by a > > blood transfusion, I simply find it outrageous that these children > > have been allowed to die over a discission made by the parents because > > of the blind following of dogma. > >=20 > > I hope no theosophical student would ever follow any theosophical > > statement blindly no matter who wrote it. > >=20 > > Theosophical study is one as you know that takes lifetimes of work and > > is not meant to be followed blindly but rather Self realised. > > The information may or may not be correct we can never presume that it > > is correct especially if a persons life other than our own hangs in > > the balance. > > What we choose for ourselves is another matter. > >=20 > > Sorry to hear you've been in hospital hope alls ok! > >=20 > > Regards > >=20 > > Perry > >=20 > >=20 > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" > > wrote: > > > Dec 19 2004 > > >=20 > > > Dear Perry: > > >=20 > > > What you say is correct and reflects the current medical view. > > >=20 > > > They know nothing of Occultism. > > >=20 > > > Preserving life in an old, decrepit and almost useless body is > > ridiculous in > > > the face of individual immortality and reincarnation -- which are > > spoofed at > > > by present day materialism in medicine and even law. > > >=20 > > > Let me put it this way: THEOSOPHY teaches a number of things that > > > materialism currently does not know anything about. That does not make > > > THEOSOPHY either dogmatic or wrong.=20 > > >=20 > > > But it ought to encourage deeper research. > > >=20 > > > The application of knowledge is always left to the one who provides > > it. The > > > motive for providing it is the desideratum of Karma. > > >=20 > > > In THEOSOPHY ethics and morals are everything. Science does not yet > > accept > > > those.=20 > > >=20 > > > So it is up to us to use or not use. > > >=20 > > > Dallas > > >=20 > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@y...]=20 > > > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 7:50 PM > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Hello Dallas, > > > I was a little concerned over your comments on blood transfusions and > > > organ donations. > > > As an ex JW I know the needless and pointless suffering and waste of > > > life that can result from these type of dogmatic beliefs. > > >=20 > > > The ethical dimension to this is to me not just a matter of our > > > attachment to the body and/or the occult effects of having someone > > > else's blood in our veins but if we are able to extend our life though > > > either a blood transfusion or organ donation are we not duty bound to > > > use whatever means we can to either save someone else's > > > (especially!!!) life or our own as long as it is not at the cost of > > > another's? > > >=20 > > > The occult consequences of these procedures while perhaps coming at a > > > price may be far outweighed by the good we can do while in > incarnation. > > >=20 > > > Perry > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" > > > wrote: > > > > Dec 18 2004 > > > >=20 > > > > Dear Vera: > > > >=20 > > > > You asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does > > THEOSOPHY > > > > offer anything. > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > THEOSOPHY does not recommend either of these for the reason that the > > > astral > > > > body and Karma attached to those are always incompatible and > > > dangerous to > > > > some extent.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Physical medicine and the science of modern healing look on the > > > human body > > > > as a fairly adaptable series if interchangeable parts - which is > > > not so. > > > >=20 > > > > The Universe organizes through the astral body each person with > > > their own > > > > particular set of personalized and individual organs and substances. > > > These > > > > are always related to the individual's Karma.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > To some extent Medical science recognizes incompatibilities such as > > > in blood > > > > transfusions and the compatibility (by DNA testing) of proposed > organ > > > > transplants (heart, lungs, etc. ) and cures for cancer attacked > > > parts of the > > > > body.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > One of our problems is psychological: Most fear death. Those who > > > have had > > > > NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES ( NDE ) have lost such fear as they > > realize that > > > > they as SPIRITUAL SOULS survive physical death. Med. Sc. Tries to > > > preserve > > > > "life"-- at any cost, in the most shattered of physical bodies. > > > >=20 > > > > THEOSOPHY states all bodies are replaceable under nature's rules and > > > laws. > > > > And while everyone grieves for the loss of a loved one, There is the > > > > knowledge that under Karma we will all meet again, and love and > > live and > > > > work together, in the future. [ For example, we don't grieve when > > > one goes > > > > to sleep before another does? We know that we will wake up and > > continue > > > > life in a fresh day. It is so with the larger separation of > > "death." ] > > > >=20 > > > > I attach here an article written generally on this.=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > THE CURE OF DISEASES > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > MORTAL ills and the needs of the stomach rank next after the > > instinct of > > > > self-preservation among all the subjects which engage the attention > > > of the > > > > race.=20 > > > > If we do not go on living we cannot do the work we think there is to > > > do; if > > > > we remain hungry we will lose the power to work properly or to > > > enjoy, and at > > > > last come to the door of death. From bad or scanty food follows a > > > train of > > > > physical ills called generally disease.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Disease reaches us also through too much food. So in every direction > > > these > > > > ills attack us; even when our feeding is correct and sufficient it > > > is found > > > > that we fall a prey because our Karma, settled by ourselves is some > > > previous > > > > life, ordains that we enter on this one handicapped by the > > > hereditary taint > > > > due to the wickedness or the errors of our fathers and mothers.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > And the records of science show that the taint in the blood or the > > > lymph may > > > > jump over many lives, attacking with virulence some generation > > > distant very > > > > far from the source.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > What wonder, then that the cure of disease is an all-absorbing > > > subject with > > > > every one! The Christian knows that it is decreed by Almighty God > > > that He > > > > will visit the sins of the fathers upon the children even to the > > > third and > > > > fourth generation, and the non-believer sees that by some power in > > > nature > > > > the penalty is felt even so far. > > > >=20 > > > > All of this has given to the schools of mental and so-called > > > "metaphysical" > > > > healing a strong pull on the fears, the feelings, the wishes, and > > > the bodies > > > > of those to whom they address themselves, and especially in the > United > > > > States.=20 > > > > That there is more attention given to the subject in America seems > > > true to > > > > those who have been on the other side of the Atlantic and noticed > > > how small > > > > is the proportion of people there who know anything about the > > > subject. But > > > > in the United States in every town many can be found who know about > > > these > > > > schools and practice after their methods. Why it has more hold here > > > can be > > > > left to conjecture, as the point under consideration is why it has > > > any hold > > > > at all. It is something like patent medicine.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Offer a cure to people for their many ills, and they will take it > > > up; offer > > > > it cheap, and they will use it; offer it as an easy method, and they > > > will > > > > rush for it under certain conditions.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Metaphysical healing is easy for some because it declares, first, > > > that no > > > > money need be paid to doctors for medicine; second, that medical > > > fluids and > > > > drugs may be dispensed with; and third that it is easily learned and > > > > practiced. The difficulties that arise out of the necessities of > > > logic are > > > > not present for those who never studied it, but are somewhat > > potent with > > > > those who reason correctly; - but that is not usual for the general > > > run of > > > > minds.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > They see certain effects and accept the assumed cause as the right > > > one. But > > > > many persons will not even investigate the system, because they > > think it > > > > requires them to postulate the non-existence of that which they see > > > before > > > > their eyes.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > The statements quoted from the monthly Christian Science in March > > > PATH are > > > > bars in the way of such minds. If they could be induced to just > > try the > > > > method offered for cure, belief might result, for effects indeed > often > > > > follow.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > But the popular mind is not in favor of "mind cure," and more > > > prominence is > > > > given in the daily papers to cases of death under it than to cures. > > > And very > > > > full reports always appear of a case such as one in March, where > > "faith > > > > curers," in order to restore life, went to praying over the dead > > > body of one > > > > of the members of a believing family. > > > >=20 > > > > During a recent tour over this country from the Atlantic to the > > > Pacific and > > > > back, I had the opportunity of meeting hundreds of disciples of > these > > > > schools, and found in nearly all cases that they were not addicted > > > to logic > > > > but calmly ignored very plain propositions, satisfied that if > > cures were > > > > accomplished the cause claimed must be the right one, and almost > > without > > > > exception they denied the existence of evil or pain or suffering.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > There was a concurrence of testimony from all to show that the > > > dominant idea > > > > in their minds was the cure of their bodily ills and the > > continuance of > > > > health. The accent was not on the beauty of holiness or the value to > > > them > > > > and the community of a right moral system and right life, but on the > > > cure of > > > > their diseases.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > So the conclusion has been forced home that all these schools exist > > > because > > > > people desire to be well more than they desire to be good, although > > > they do > > > > not object to goodness if that shall bring wholeness. > > > >=20 > > > > And, indeed, one does not have to be good to gain the benefit of the > > > > teachings. It is enough to have confidence, to assert boldly that > > > this does > > > > not exist and that that has no power to hurt one.=20 > > > > I do not say the teachers of the "science" agree with me herein, but > > > only > > > > that whether you are good or bad the results will follow the firm > > > practice > > > > of the method enjoined, irrespective of the ideas of the teachers. > > > >=20 > > > > For in pure mind-cure as compared with its congener "Christian > > > Science," you > > > > do not have to believe in Jesus and the gospels, yet the same > > > results are > > > > claimed, for Jesus taught that whatever you prayed for with faith, > > > that you > > > > should have. > > > >=20 > > > > Scientific research discloses that the bodies of our race are > > > infected with > > > > taints that cause nearly all of our diseases, and school after > > school of > > > > medicine has tried and still tries to find the remedy that will > > > dislodge the > > > > foulness in the blood.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > This is scientific, since it seeks the real physical cause; > > metaphysical > > > > healing says it cures, but cannot prove that the cause is destroyed > > > and not > > > > merely palliated.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > That there is some room for doubt history shows us, for none will > > > deny that > > > > many pure thinking and acting pair have brought forth children who > > > displayed > > > > some taint derived from a distant ancestor. Evidently their pure > > > individual > > > > thoughts had no power over the great universal development of the > > matter > > > > used by those human bodies. > > > >=20 > > > > Turning now to medicine we find the Italian Count Mattei > > promulgating a > > > > system of cure by the homeopathic use of subtle vegetable essences > > > which may > > > > well give pause to those who would make universal the curing by > > faith or > > > > mind alone. Some of his liquids will instantly stop a violent pain, > > > restore > > > > sight, give back hearing, and dissipate abnormal growths. His > > > globules will > > > > make a drunken man sober, and, given to the nurse who suckles a > > > babe, will > > > > cure the child who takes the milk. The drunkard and the child do not > > > think > > > > about or have faith in the remedies, yet they cure. Is it not > > better to > > > > restore health by physical means and leave the high teachings of the > > > > healers, all taken from well know sources, for the benefit of our > > moral > > > > nature?=20 > > > >=20 > > > > And if Christian healers read these lines, should they not > > remember that > > > > when the prophet restored the widow's son he used physical means - > > > his own > > > > magnetism applied simultaneously to every member of the child's > > > body, and > > > > Jesus, when the woman who touched his garment was cured, lost a > > > portion of > > > > his vitality - not his thoughts - for he said "virtue" had gone > > out from > > > > him?=20 > > > > The Apostle also gave directions that if any were sick the others > > should > > > > assemble about the bed and anoint with oil, laying on their hands > > > meanwhile: > > > > simply physical therapeutics following a long line of ancient > > precedent > > > > dating back to Noah.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Moses taught how to cure diseases and to disinfect places where > > > contagion > > > > lurked. It was not by using the high power of thought, but by > > processes > > > > deemed by him to be effectual, such as sprinkling blood of animals > > > > slaughtered in peculiar circumstances.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Without declaring for or against his methods, it is very certain >=20 > =3D=3D=3D message truncated =3D=3D=3D >=20 > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! =96 Try it today!=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Erica Letzerich .'. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 http://mail.yahoo.com=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Dec 22 04:22:06 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31388 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 12:22:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Dec 2004 12:22:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 12:22:05 -0000 Received: from [209.179.146.5] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Ch5V5-0007n3-HG; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 07:21:59 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE; b=cPvfRFsWaR9q/7pLieJS5cjANuIplx2Qip/dj2V4tzqcp2qOw+H2IbhIDvHg7F4V; To: Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 04:21:42 -0800 Message-ID: <004101c4e820$d38b8470$088cb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <00c201c4e7ae$22f0aae0$fe69013d@k1> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79e701ab15b96ba64255fa460590b5bfd4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.65 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.146.5 Subject: RE: Theos-World Masters X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 22 2004 Dear Anand : I don't know what basis you choose to write from.=20=20 There is plenty of evidence in the THEOSOPHY literature on the Mahatmas. Bu= t you have to know where to go to secure it. Here are some ideas to consider "THE THEOSOPHICAL MAHATMAS"=20 by H. P. Blavatsky H P B Articles I p. 301 Some of the statements made herein seem important : P. 302 Our MASTERS are simply holy mortals, nevertheless, however, higher than any in this world, morally, intellectually and spiritually.=20 P. 302 However holy and advanced in the science of the Mysteries--they are still men, members of a Brotherhood, who are the first in it to show themselves subservient to its time-honored laws and rules.=20 P. 302 .one of the first rules in it demands that those who start on their journey.should proceed by the straight road, without stopping on every side-way and path.that they should have confidence and show trust and patience, besides several other conditions to fulfill.=20 P. 302 Once that a theosophist would become a candidate for either chelaship or favors, he must be aware of the mutual pledge, tacitly, if not formally offered and accepted between the two parties, and, that such a pledge is sacred. It is a bond of seven years of probation.=20 P. 203 .the chief and the only indispensable condition required in the candidate or chela on probation, is simply unswerving fidelity to the chosen Master and his purposes.=20 P. 203 .the magnetic rapport between the two once broken, it becomes at each time doubly difficult to re-establish it again; and that it is neither just nor fair, that the Masters should strain their powers for those whose future course and final desertion they very often can plainly foresee.=20 P. 304 Emotionalism is not philosophy; and Buddha devoted his long self-sacrificing life to tear people away precisely from that evil breeding superstition.=20 P. 304 For years every new member has been told that he was promised nothing, but bad everything to expect only from his own personal merit. The Theosophist is left free and untrammeled in his actions.=20 P. 306 .as soon as one steps on the Path leading to the Ashrum of THE BLESSED MASTERS--THE LAST AND ONLY CUSTODIANS OF PRIMITIVE WISDOM AND TRUTH--his Karma, instead of having to be distributed throughout his long life, falls upon him in a block and crushes him with its whole weight. He who believes in what he professes and in his Master, will stand it and come out of the trial victorious.This is why, having been so constantly, so mercilessly slashed by my Karma.that I have stood it all. I felt sure that Master would not permit that I should perish; that he would always appear a= t the eleventh hour--and so he did. Three times I was saved from death by Him= , the last time almost against my will; when I went again into the cold, wicked world out of love for Him, who has taught me what I know and made me what I am. Therefore, I do His work and bidding, and this is what has given me the lion's strength to support shocks--physical and mental, one of which would have killed any theosophist who would go on doubting of the mighty protection. P. 307 Unswerving devotion to Him who embodies the duty traced for me, and belief in the Wisdom--collectively, of that grand, mysterious, yet actual Brotherhood of holy men--is my only merit, and the cause of my success in Occult philosophy.=20 P. 307 [GREAT MASTER] : Perish rather, the Theosophical Society and its hapless Founders,"=20 [H P B] : I say perish their twelve years' labour and their very lives rather than that I should see what I do today: theosophists, outvying political "rings" in their search for personal power and authority; theosophists slandering and criticizing each other as two rival Christian sects might do; finally theosophists refusing to lead the life and then criticizing and throwing slurs on the grandest and noblest of men, because tied by their wise laws--hoary with age and based on an experience of human nature millenniums old--those Masters refuse to interfere with Karma and to play second fiddle to every theosophist who calls upon Them and whether he deserves it or not.=20 CAN THE MAHATMAS BE SELFISH ? by H. P. Blavatsky H P B Articles I, p. 321 Here are some statements that appear important to me: P. 321 unselfishness is a sine qua non for success in occultism.=20 the development of an unselfish feeling is in itself the primary training which brings with it "knowledge which is power" as a necessary accessory. I= t is not, therefore, "knowledge," as ordinarily understood, that the occultis= t works for, but it comes to him as a matter of course, in consequence of his having removed the veil, which screens true knowledge from his view.=20 The basis of knowledge exists everywhere, since the phenomenal world furnishes or rather abounds with facts, the causes of which have to be discovered.=20 We see only the effects in the phenomenal world, for each cause in that world is itself the effect of some other cause, and so on; and, therefore, true knowledge consists in getting at the root of all phenomena, and thus arriving at a correct understanding of the primal cause, the "rootless root," which is not an effect in its turn.=20 To perceive anything correctly, one can use only those senses or instrument= s which correspond to the nature of that object. Hence, to comprehend the noumenal, a noumenal sense is a pre-requisite; while the transient phenomen= a can be perceived by senses corresponding to the nature of those phenomena.= =20 Occult Philosophy teaches us that the seventh principle is the only eternal Reality, while the rest, belonging as they do to the "world of forms" which are non-permanent, are illusive in the sense that they are transient. To these is limited the phenomenal world which can be taken cognisance of by the senses corresponding to the nature of those six principles. It will thu= s be clear that it is only the seventh sense, which pertains to the noumenal world, that can comprehend the Abstract Reality underlying all phenomena.=20 As this seventh principle is all-pervading, it exists potentially in all of us; and he, who would arrive at true knowledge, has to develop that sense i= n him, or rather he must remove those veils which obscure its manifestation.= =20 All sense of personality is limited only to these lower six principles, for the former relates only to the "world of forms." Consequently, true "knowledge" can be obtained only by tearing away all the curtains of Maya raised by a sense of personality before the impersonal Atma.=20 It is only in that personality that is centered selfishness, or rather the latter creates the former and vice versa, since they mutually act and react upon each other.=20 For, selfishness is that feeling which seeks after the aggrandisement of one's own egotistic personality to the exclusion of others. If, therefore, selfishness limits one to narrow personalities, absolute knowledge is impossible so long as selfishness is not got rid of.=20 So long, however, as we are in this world of phenomena, we cannot be entirely rid of a sense of personality, however exalted that feeling may be in the sense that no feeling of personal aggrandisement or ambition remains= . We are, by our constitution and state of evolution, placed in the "World of Relativity," but as we find that impersonality and non-duality is the ultimate end of cosmic evolution, we have to endeavor to work along with Nature, and not place ourselves in opposition to its inherent impulse which must ultimately assert itself. To oppose it, must necessitate suffering, since a weaker force, in its egotism, tries to array itself against the universal law.=20 All that the occultist does, is to hasten this process, by allowing his Wil= l to act in unison with the Cosmic Will or the Demiurgic Mind, which can be done by successfully checking the vain attempt of personality to assert itself in opposition to the former.=20 And since the MAHATMA is but an advanced occultist, who has so far controlled his lower "self" as to hold it more or less in complete subjection to the Cosmic impulse, it is in the nature of things impossible for him to act in any other but an unselfish manner. No sooner does he allo= w the "personal self" to assert itself, than he ceases to be a MAHATMA.=20 Those, therefore, who being still entangled in the web of the delusive sens= e of personality charge the MAHATMAS with "selfishness" in withholding "knowledge"--do not consider what they are talking about. The Law of Cosmic evolution is ever operating to achieve its purpose of ultimate unity and to carry the phenomenal into the noumenal plane, and the MAHATMAS, being en rapport with it, are assisting that purpose. They therefore know best what knowledge is best for mankind at a particular stage of its evolution, and none else is competent to judge of that matter, since they alone have got to the basic knowledge which can determine the right course and exercise proper discrimination. =20 For us who are yet struggling in the mire of the illusive senses to dictate what knowledge MAHATMAS shall impart to us and how they shall act, is like = a street-boy presuming to teach science to Prof. Huxley or politics to Mr. Gladstone.=20 For, it will be evident that, as soon as the least feeling of selfishness tries to assert itself, the vision of the spiritual sense, which is the onl= y perception of the MAHATMA, becomes clouded and he loses the "power" which abstract "knowledge" alone can confer.=20 Hence, the vigilant watch of the "Will" we have constantly to exercise to prevent our lower nature from coming up to the surface, which it does in ou= r present undeveloped state; and thus extreme activity and not passivity is the essential condition with which the student has to commence.=20 First his activity is directed to check the opposing influence of the "lowe= r self"; and, when that is conquered, his untrammelled Will centered in his higher (real) "self," continues to work most efficaciously and actively in unison with the cosmic ideation in the "Divine Mind."=20 ----------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Dallas =20 -----Original Message----- From: Anand=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 2:40 PM To:=20 Subject: Masters " THERE has been among Theosophical students a great deal of vagueness and uncertainty about the Masters, so perhaps it may help us to realize how natural Their lives are, ....CUT From christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com Wed Dec 22 05:21:54 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 16646 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 13:21:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Dec 2004 13:21:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.16) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 13:21:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n11.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Dec 2004 13:21:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.149] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Dec 2004 13:21:46 -0000 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:21:44 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000e01c4e764$3dd1c500$3880b3d1@DALLAS> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 271 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.16 From: "christinaleestemaker" X-Originating-IP: 83.85.214.69 Subject: May everyone find his "Truth "and The Light. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162317756 X-Yahoo-Profile: christinaleestemaker --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Ardently seek Truth and Light and learn to follow them at all costs as you find them. K.H. from: Daily meditations/compiled by Katherine A Beechey/ extracs from Letters of the Masters of Wisdom. dd 22-12-Aeon. Greetings Christina From John@GodLovesEveryone.org Wed Dec 22 06:50:03 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: john@GodLovesEveryone.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54974 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 14:50:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Dec 2004 14:50:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.69) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 14:50:01 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.247.236.125.dial1.tampa1.level3.net ([4.247.236.125] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Ch7oN-0001gk-VZ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:50:00 -0500 Message-ID: <41C86CA0.40707@GodLovesEveryone.org> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 12:34:08 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 9118488001fc12941aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79958b0a3819f7087b8b661ae5de82729d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.69 From: "john, webmaster, www.GodLovesEveryone.org" Reply-To: recommendations@literacycurriculums.com X-Originating-IP: 4.247.236.125 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and reincarnation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=102437908 X-Yahoo-Profile: www_godloveseveryone_org Perry wrote: > If we all of a sudden get a taste for rap music or MacDonald's, > well so be it I am still the same person underneath. > And have been given an extra opportunity to work though karma > and hopefully be of service to others in some way. > If we only look at a negative then that's all we'll see. In my opinion, if a person suddenly got a taste for rap music, it just might mean that the person is "ready" for that part of his spiritual path. It is interesting where one can find spiritual enlightenment if one searches for it with an open mind. I know I find lots of enlightenment in strange places, like on the TV Series "Babylon Five" (my short review of the series is posted at http://www.GodLovesEveryone.org/reviews/babylon5ondvd.html Recently, I discovered some DVDs that show promise in showing different points of view. The series is mentioned in my signature below. The issue of the DVD that I reviewed had two different looks at the presence of recently departed spirits (one in the survivor's mind (in a short feature), the other actually showing its presence with moving items (in the feature length film) and a very nice exposure to Tibetan Buddhism and a few of their ceremonies (I was impressed that one monk could actually jump into the air and land with his feet on top of his knees, can't remember the position name as I write this in the air above St Louis enroute to Tampa for the holidays).) -- John, webmaster www.GodLovesEveryone.org and www.MAZES.com P.S. Are you looking for a great gift for the spiritual someone on your list? (Or for yourself?) Look no further. http://www.spiritual-dvds-every-month.com/ or: http://www.GodLovesEveryone.org/spiritual-dvds-every-month/ I checked out one month's worth of DVDs and loved every minute. And I really appreciated the fact that they didn't try to promote just one point of view. From mhart@idirect.ca Wed Dec 22 06:51:00 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72337 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 14:51:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Dec 2004 14:51:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gatekeeper.look.ca) (207.136.80.8) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 14:50:59 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.177] (helo=idirect.ca) by gatekeeper.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Ch7pJ-0001aK-Kk for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:50:57 +0000 Message-ID: <41C98A7C.2030207@idirect.ca> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:53:48 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on omega.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.8 From: Mauri Subject: re "everyone have a happy holiday season" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Somebody said: "Everyone have a happy holiday season." when people say things like that I start wondering about the rest of the year. I mean, if one sets aside a particular time of year in which to be "happy," (whatever that might mean more specifically), then wouldn't that automatically set up a chain reaction in a dualistic world, making for "unhappy" times ahead ... Anyway, I'm trying not to be too happy or too sad or too anything. So I guess I'm wishing everyone sort of middle-of-the-road things that aren't too seasonal or too unseasonal. ^:-/ ... Mauri From perrycoles@yahoo.com Wed Dec 22 07:42:44 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: perrycoles@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 90837 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 15:42:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Dec 2004 15:42:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 15:42:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Dec 2004 15:41:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.143] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Dec 2004 15:41:56 -0000 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:41:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41C86CA0.40707@GodLovesEveryone.org> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2362 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.41 From: "Perry Coles" X-Originating-IP: 203.59.240.97 Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and Bab 5 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=93736069 X-Yahoo-Profile: perrycoles Hi John, That's a good way of looking at it. I am a big fan of Babylon 5 myself, its full of theosophical concepts. Anyone you hasn't watch the series it's a good idea to work yourself forward from the start rather than watch the series haphazardly as the story line arcs and gets more and more interesting as the series unfolds. Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "john, webmaster, www.GodLovesEveryone.org" wrote: > Perry wrote: > > If we all of a sudden get a taste for rap music or MacDonald's, > > well so be it I am still the same person underneath. > > And have been given an extra opportunity to work though karma > > and hopefully be of service to others in some way. > > If we only look at a negative then that's all we'll see. > > In my opinion, if a person suddenly got a taste for rap music, it just might mean that the person is "ready" for that part of his spiritual path. It is interesting where one can find spiritual enlightenment if one searches for it with an open mind. I know I find lots of enlightenment in strange places, like on the TV Series "Babylon Five" (my short review of the series is posted at > http://www.GodLovesEveryone.org/reviews/babylon5ondvd.html > > Recently, I discovered some DVDs that show promise in showing different points of view. The series is mentioned in my signature below. The issue of the DVD that I reviewed had two different looks at the presence of recently departed spirits (one in the survivor's mind (in a short feature), the other actually showing its presence with moving items (in the feature length film) and a very nice exposure to Tibetan Buddhism and a few of their ceremonies (I was impressed that one monk could actually jump into the air and land with his feet on top of his knees, can't remember the position name as I write this in the air above St Louis enroute to Tampa for the holidays).) > -- > John, webmaster > www.GodLovesEveryone.org and www.MAZES.com > > P.S. Are you looking for a great gift for the spiritual someone on your > list? (Or for yourself?) > > Look no further. http://www.spiritual-dvds-every-month.com/ > or: http://www.GodLovesEveryone.org/spiritual-dvds-every-month/ > > I checked out one month's worth of DVDs and loved every minute. And I > really appreciated the fact that they didn't try to promote just one > point of view. From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Wed Dec 22 10:29:55 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26894 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 18:29:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Dec 2004 18:29:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.158) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 18:29:54 -0000 Received: from versus (unknown [201.11.109.60]) by smtp2.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7F22D3691 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:29:19 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <001c01c4e853$d5ee2460$0301010a@versus> To: References: <00c201c4e7ae$22f0aae0$fe69013d@k1> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:27:03 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.158 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Masters Man or woman X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anand and others Hello. A question Why are the Masters always characterized as male and not as a female creatu= re too? Aren=B4t there women who have reached their enlightenment in History of spi= rituality or the masculine gender has always hush it up? The Church has always considered Mary of Magdalen a whore, and throughout m= any apocriph gospels we deduce she was one of Jesus dearest disciples and o= ne of the first iniciated women recorded in written history , besides the g= oddesses in India, of course. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Anand Gholap=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 8:40 PM Subject: Theos-World Masters www.AnandGholap.net " THERE has been among Theosophical students a great deal of vagueness an= d uncertainty about the Masters, so perhaps it may help us to realize how n= atural Their lives are, and how there is an ordinary physical side to them,= if I say a few words about the daily life and appearance of some of Them. = There is no one physical characteristic by which an Adept can be infallibly= distinguished from other men, but He always appears impressive, noble, dig= nified, holy and serene, and anyone meeting Him could hardly fail to recogn= ize that he was in the presence of a remarkable man. He is the strong but s= ilent man, speaking only when He has a definite object in view, to encourag= e, to help or to warn, yet He is wonderfully benevolent and full of a keen = sense of humour-- humour always of a kindly order, used never to wound, but= always to lighten the troubles of life. The Master Morya once said that it= is impossible to make progress on the occult Path without a sense of humou= r, and certainly all the Adepts whom I have seen have possessed that qualif= ication.=20 48. Most of = Them are distinctly fine-looking men; Their physical bodies are practically= perfect, for They live in complete obedience to the laws of health, and ab= ove all They never worry about anything. All Their evil karma has long been= exhausted, and thus the physical body is as perfect an expression of the A= ugoeides or glorified body of the ego as the limitations of the physical pl= ane will allow, so that not only is the present body of an Adept usually sp= lendidly handsome, but also new body that He may take in a subsequent incar= nation is likely to be an almost exact reproduction of the old one, allowin= g for racial and family differences, because there is nothing to modify it.= This freedom from karma gives Them, when for any reason They choose to tak= e new bodies, entire liberty to select a birth in any country or race that = may be convenient for the work that They have to do, and thus the nationali= ty of the particular bodies which They happen to be wearing at any given ti= me is not of primary importance. " Complete book can be read at http://www.anandgholap.net/Masters_And_Path-CWL.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Wed Dec 22 10:43:18 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 21195 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 18:43:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Dec 2004 18:43:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx03.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.13) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 18:43:17 -0000 Received: from 3e6b03b7.rev.stofanet.dk ([62.107.3.183] helo=khidr) by mx03.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1ChBRz-0006OJ-02 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:43:07 +0100 Message-ID: <003f01c4e856$7c732950$b7036b3e@khidr> To: References: <00c201c4e7ae$22f0aae0$fe69013d@k1> <001c01c4e853$d5ee2460$0301010a@versus> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:46:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 212.10.10.13 From: "M. Sufilight" Subject: Re: Theos-World Masters Man or woman X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Halllo Krishtar and all, My views are: It is wellknown that in the past Men was given greater importance than women, when the talke fell on leadership. It is only comparatively recently in our latest years of evolution that women - in many countries with their various cultures - has been given the needed acceptance as publicly known leaders within spiritual circles and outside spiritual circles. So this is partly the answer. And we known that even at HPB's time only few females were taught publicly as Lamas and groomed to be public teachers in Tibet. The same happened on public leadership in many other countries at that time with their different cultures. It is however wellknown that the greatest Sheik Ibn El-Arabi (d. 1240) was taught by a female named Fatima. Ibn El-Arabi was also known to the west as Doctor Maximus the Alchemist. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 7:27 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Masters Man or woman Anand and others Hello. A question Why are the Masters always characterized as male and not as a female creature too? Aren´t there women who have reached their enlightenment in History of spirituality or the masculine gender has always hush it up? The Church has always considered Mary of Magdalen a whore, and throughout many apocriph gospels we deduce she was one of Jesus dearest disciples and one of the first iniciated women recorded in written history , besides the goddesses in India, of course. Krishtar ----- Original Message ----- From: Anand Gholap To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 8:40 PM Subject: Theos-World Masters www.AnandGholap.net " THERE has been among Theosophical students a great deal of vagueness and uncertainty about the Masters, so perhaps it may help us to realize how natural Their lives are, and how there is an ordinary physical side to them, if I say a few words about the daily life and appearance of some of Them. There is no one physical characteristic by which an Adept can be infallibly distinguished from other men, but He always appears impressive, noble, dignified, holy and serene, and anyone meeting Him could hardly fail to recognize that he was in the presence of a remarkable man. He is the strong but silent man, speaking only when He has a definite object in view, to encourage, to help or to warn, yet He is wonderfully benevolent and full of a keen sense of humour-- humour always of a kindly order, used never to wound, but always to lighten the troubles of life. The Master Morya once said that it is impossible to make progress on the occult Path without a sense of humour, and certainly all the Adepts whom I have seen have possessed that qualification. 48. Most of Them are distinctly fine-looking men; Their physical bodies are practically perfect, for They live in complete obedience to the laws of health, and above all They never worry about anything. All Their evil karma has long been exhausted, and thus the physical body is as perfect an expression of the Augoeides or glorified body of the ego as the limitations of the physical plane will allow, so that not only is the present body of an Adept usually splendidly handsome, but also new body that He may take in a subsequent incarnation is likely to be an almost exact reproduction of the old one, allowing for racial and family differences, because there is nothing to modify it. This freedom from karma gives Them, when for any reason They choose to take new bodies, entire liberty to select a birth in any country or race that may be convenient for the work that They have to do, and thus the nationality of the particular bodies which They happen to be wearing at any given time is not of primary importance. " Complete book can be read at http://www.anandgholap.net/Masters_And_Path-CWL.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Dec 22 17:17:22 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 34686 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2004 01:17:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Dec 2004 01:17:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.44) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Dec 2004 01:17:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Dec 2004 01:17:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.116] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Dec 2004 01:17:07 -0000 Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 01:17:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001c01c4e853$d5ee2460$0301010a@versus> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 3743 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.44 From: "silva_cass" X-Originating-IP: 211.28.163.14 Subject: Re: Theos-World Masters Man or woman X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Would anyone have given credence to a "female Master" in a Male=20 dominated century? The time wasn't right, I don't believe it is a=20 discrimination issue, or male propaganda. Look what HPB went=20 through as a Disciple, imagine proposing Super Women as her source.=20=20 Women were to be seen but not heard, even having to take pseudonysms=20 as male authors on fictional works, but I believe, "the times they=20 are a changing"=20=20 Cass --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "krishtar" =20 wrote: > Anand and others > Hello. > A question > Why are the Masters always characterized as male and not as a=20 female creature too? > Aren=B4t there women who have reached their enlightenment in History=20 of spirituality or the masculine gender has always hush it up? >=20 >=20 > The Church has always considered Mary of Magdalen a whore, and=20 throughout many apocriph gospels we deduce she was one of Jesus=20 dearest disciples and one of the first iniciated women recorded in=20 written history , besides the goddesses in India, of course. >=20 > Krishtar >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Anand Gholap=20 > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 > Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 8:40 PM > Subject: Theos-World Masters >=20 >=20 >=20 > www.AnandGholap.net >=20 > " THERE has been among Theosophical students a great deal of=20 vagueness and uncertainty about the Masters, so perhaps it may help=20 us to realize how natural Their lives are, and how there is an=20 ordinary physical side to them, if I say a few words about the daily=20 life and appearance of some of Them. There is no one physical=20 characteristic by which an Adept can be infallibly distinguished=20 from other men, but He always appears impressive, noble, dignified,=20 holy and serene, and anyone meeting Him could hardly fail to=20 recognize that he was in the presence of a remarkable man. He is the=20 strong but silent man, speaking only when He has a definite object=20 in view, to encourage, to help or to warn, yet He is wonderfully=20 benevolent and full of a keen sense of humour-- humour always of a=20 kindly order, used never to wound, but always to lighten the=20 troubles of life. The Master Morya once said that it is impossible=20 to make progress on the occult Path without a sense of humour, and=20 certainly all the Adepts whom I have seen have possessed that=20 qualification.=20 > 48. = =20 Most of Them are distinctly fine-looking men; Their physical bodies=20 are practically perfect, for They live in complete obedience to the=20 laws of health, and above all They never worry about anything. All=20 Their evil karma has long been exhausted, and thus the physical body=20 is as perfect an expression of the Augoeides or glorified body of=20 the ego as the limitations of the physical plane will allow, so that=20 not only is the present body of an Adept usually splendidly=20 handsome, but also new body that He may take in a subsequent=20 incarnation is likely to be an almost exact reproduction of the old=20 one, allowing for racial and family differences, because there is=20 nothing to modify it. This freedom from karma gives Them, when for=20 any reason They choose to take new bodies, entire liberty to select=20 a birth in any country or race that may be convenient for the work=20 that They have to do, and thus the nationality of the particular=20 bodies which They happen to be wearing at any given time is not of=20 primary importance. " >=20 > Complete book can be read at >=20 > http://www.anandgholap.net/Masters_And_Path-CWL.htm >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20=20=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20=20=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Dec 22 17:19:38 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65271 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2004 01:19:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Dec 2004 01:19:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.51) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Dec 2004 01:19:38 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n22.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Dec 2004 01:19:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.183] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Dec 2004 01:19:08 -0000 Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 01:18:42 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41C98A7C.2030207@idirect.ca> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 828 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.51 From: "silva_cass" X-Originating-IP: 211.28.163.14 Subject: Re: re "everyone have a happy holiday season" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Dear Mauri, I agree with you, but my mother would say about Christmas, at least it is one day of the year that we can all try to be happy. Cass --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Mauri wrote: > Somebody said: "Everyone have a happy > holiday season." > > when people say things like that I start > wondering about the rest of the year. I > mean, if one sets aside a particular > time of year in which to be "happy," > (whatever that might mean more > specifically), then wouldn't that > automatically set up a chain reaction in > a dualistic world, making for "unhappy" > times ahead ... Anyway, I'm trying not > to be too happy or too sad or too > anything. So I guess I'm wishing > everyone sort of middle-of-the-road > things that aren't too seasonal or too > unseasonal. > > ^:-/ ... > Mauri From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Dec 22 19:03:31 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 19304 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2004 03:03:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Dec 2004 03:03:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Dec 2004 03:03:30 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1ChJGA-00043s-4I for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 22:03:26 -0500 Message-ID: <41CA3587.9020301@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 22:03:35 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <00c201c4e7ae$22f0aae0$fe69013d@k1> <001c01c4e853$d5ee2460$0301010a@versus> In-Reply-To: <001c01c4e853$d5ee2460$0301010a@versus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbad594d6611d81071776e9a1d9f6d2a4341ee4b264fab01f9d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Masters Man or woman X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar wrote: > Why are the Masters always characterized as male and not as a female > creature too? Aren´t there women who have reached their enlightenment > in History of spirituality or the masculine gender has always hush it > up? What purpose would have been served by having them be women? Bart From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Thu Dec 23 02:13:23 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70434 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2004 10:13:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Dec 2004 10:13:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web41510.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.93.93) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Dec 2004 10:13:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 38724 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Dec 2004 10:13:22 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=NgIFbYzqnHXMSbjF7s9qmbXPyO8kzrXNWzac3NxKC4e8K96Wbe6OXCxyQ7cbfmxmIPH6cX5LiZ6v4vuGXJeihZdarED6hDch9/HptpZtAu90CCSIDlbdKH5k8F6HPwOFr+h56DlNWbZtvyW+t3BHTF/OY1R+xZaacJuXRy+Wy/Q= ; Message-ID: <20041223101322.38722.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [150.101.201.135] by web41510.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 02:13:22 PST Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 02:13:22 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.93.93 From: Pedro Oliveira Subject: Blavatskyan Christmas Tales X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617 X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira "In our modern times, the bishops and the clergy join no more with the populace in open carolling and dancing; and feasts of “fools and asses” are enacted more in sacred privacy than under the eyes of the dangerous, argus-eyed reporter. Yet the eating and drinking festivities are preserved throughout the Christian world; and, more sudden deaths are doubtless caused by gluttony and intemperance during the Christmas and Easter holidays, than at any other time of the year. Yet, Christian worship becomes every year more and more a false pretence. The heartlessness of this lip-service has been denounced innumerable times, but never, we think, with a more affecting touch of realism than in a charming dream-tale, which appeared in the New York Herald about last Christmas. An aged man, presiding at a public meeting, said he would avail himself of the opportunity to relate a vision he had witnessed on the previous night. . . . He thought he was standing in the pulpit of the most gorgeous and magnificent cathedral he had ever seen. Before him was the priest or pastor of the church, and beside him stood an angel with a tablet and pencil in hand, whose mission it was to make record of every act of worship or prayer that transpired in his presence and ascended as an acceptable offering to the throne of God. Every pew was filled with richly-attired worshippers of either sex. The most sublime music that ever fell on his enraptured ear filled the air with melody. All the beautiful ritualistic Church services, including a surpassingly eloquent sermon from the gifted minister, had in turn transpired, and yet the recording angel made no entry in his tablet! The congregation were at length dismissed by the pastor with a lengthy and beautifully-worded prayer, followed by a benediction, and yet the angel made no sign! . . . Attended still by the angel, the speaker left the door of the church in rear of the richly-attired congregation. A poor, tattered castaway stood in the gutter beside the curbstone, with her pale, famished hand extended, silently pleading for alms. As the richly-attired worshippers from the church passed by, they shrank from the poor Magdalen, the ladies withdrawing aside their silken, jewel-bedecked robes, lest they should be polluted by her touch. . . . Just then an intoxicated sailor came reeling down the side-walk on the other side. When he got opposite the poor forsaken girl, he staggered across the street to where she stood, and, taking a few pennies from his pocket, he thrust them into her hand, accompanied with the adjuration, “Here, your poor forsaken cuss, take this!” A celestial radiance now lighted up the face of the recording angel, who instantly entered the sailor’s act of sympathy and charity in his tablet, and departed with it as a sweat sacrifice to God. A concretion, one might say, of the Biblical story of the judgment upon the woman taken in adultery. Be it so; yet it portrays with a master hand the state of our Christian society. According to tradition, on Christmas Eve the oxen may always be found on their knees, as though in prayer and devotion; and “there was a famous hawthorn in the church-yard of Glastonbury Abbey, which always budded on the 24th, and blossomed on the 25th of December”; which, considering that the day was chosen by the Fathers of the church at random, and that the calendar has been changed from the old to the new style, shows a remarkable perspicacity in both the animal and the vegetable! There is also a tradition of the church, preserved to us by Olaus, archbishop of Upsala, that, at the festival of Christmas, “the men living in the cold Northern parts, are suddenly and strangely metamorphosed into wolves; and that a huge multitude of them meet together at an appointed place and rage so fiercely against mankind, that it suffers more from their attacks than ever they do from the natural wolves.” Metaphorically viewed, this would seem to be more than ever the case with men, and particularly with Christian nations, now. There seems no need to wait for Christmas Eve to see whole nations changed into “wild beasts”—especially in time of war." (BCW, vol. II, p. 166) Pedro __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Dec 23 03:37:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97911 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2004 11:37:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Dec 2004 11:37:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Dec 2004 11:37:35 -0000 Received: from [209.179.140.35] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1ChRHK-00071A-3Z; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 06:37:13 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE; b=TPX+KAWlpRSmd2/QtjgztogPSQZ7psZq/jU0eqfqeznUBpmjcHoTFXilaQdupv1b; To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:36:54 -0800 Message-ID: <000c01c4e8e3$bced8740$238cb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79f0be8c4083aaf2e247ba52a7899c21e6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.140.35 Subject: RE: Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and reincarnation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 22 2004 Dear Friend:=20 Re: Transfusions and reincarnation I fully understand,=20=20 The VOICE OF THE SILENCE says: Pp. 75-6 "But stay, Disciple . . . Yet, one word.=20 Canst thou destroy divine COMPASSION?=20 Compassion is no attribute. It is the LAW of LAWS-eternal Harmony, Alaya's SELF; a shoreless universal essence, the light of everlasting Right, and fitness of all things, the law of love eternal. The more thou dost become at one with it, thy being melted in its BEING, th= e more thy Soul unites with that which IS, the more thou wilt become COMPASSION ABSOLUTE.=20 Such is the Arya Path, Path of the Buddhas of perfection." As I have tried to say:=20=20 THEOSOPHY provides us with information about the laws and rules and relations of things in our world and universe, chiefly along the causes of the physical situations we are in or those into which we may place ourselves. This means for us a gradual study of, and familiarization with, the electro-magnetic and moral energies that underlie the "life-atoms," Monads, and "little lives" we use and attract, and then diffuse again.=20=20 Nature has her own way of doing this.=20 Modern medicine and surgery with a view to sustaining "life" regardless of its usefulness to the Soul within, sometime exaggerates its tasks of life sustaining work. How can that urge be understood and used to the advantage not only of the individual concerned, but of all? Edgar Caycee was one who had insights into this -- which the average individual lacks. But his type of insights are not readily available for use. But THEOSOPHY does not dictate to anyone how to apply that knowledge. For instance, if you look through the JATAKA TALES that relate to the earlier incarnations of Gautama Buddha, you will find enormous evidence of the self-application of compassion and self-sacrifice. These are examples of merit and inspiration. [see below] They illustrate the attitude a donor ought to use. They do not enforce anything but reason it out, or offer explanations from a deeper level of knowledge.. Not everything is a danger. But the decisions we make create through our motives either benefit or endanger -- ourselves, and, or others.=20=20 It is not solely for ourselves that warnings are to be considered, but also as to what we may transmit to others. Who of us can say we have lived so pure a life that the material we donate will not harm them?=20=20 Also consider that the method of providing the gift is by a forceful invasion of another's body -- injection or by surgery -- The other body has no normal way of refusing or rejecting the gift. Suppressants of various kinds may be used to ease the curative aspect of such gifts until our bodie= s are made to accept them. But, as you say, (and I am also aware of them) there are more subtle effect= s that are observed. Those are also important. These can impact our psyche and our minds. Sometimes for good and sometimes the reverse. This is an insoluble dilemma at least as regards applications to others. Each has to decide for themselves. Best wishes, Dallas P S Example of Jataka tale: The Angry Broom In ancient times when Brahmadatta ruled in Benares the kingdom's influence extended to Chidambaram where stands an ancient and famous temple= , said to have been dedicated, when first opened by the Devas, the Raja-Rishi= s of ancient times who never die, and who watch over the works and fate of mankind. Attached to this temple is a school for students of Brahmanic lore. One year, then, long ago, as the month of flowers named Margashirsha and called March today, began on the day of the full moon, Ramachandra who had just had his seventh birthday, walked happily with his mother and father to visit the Chief Instructor at the nearby school of that ancient fane. He was looking forward to joining a new class that was to be formed, and following in the footsteps of his elder brother who had already gone to the school some three years earlier.=20=20 Ramachandra, called Rama for short, looked on this as an adventure, and hoped that he too would be able to learn for himself the lore and wisdo= m of his ancestors. He had been born in a Brahmin family and was acquainted with some of the marvelous sweeps of nature study his parents and older brother spoke of. This had led his active imagination and inquiring mind into a more careful observing of Nature's creatures and ways all around him= . He wanted to learn all he could of the wisdom that was to be offered there. He was accepted, and as he lived nearby, he was asked to come early every day to work, and to study with others, who were boarders.=20=20 Starting the next morning very early in the day, his teacher gave him a broom made of twigs, and told him that his first responsibility was t= o daily sweep out the courtyard of the school and temple.=20=20 Rama set to work willingly. But his broom gave him trouble. No sooner had he made a pile of dust and twigs blown in on the wind, than the broom, with a willful and capricious mind of its won, flicked the neat pile away and the scattered all he had assembled into the pile. Everything woul= d have to be swept up again, and, strangely, this happened again and again. Rama had never seen anything like that. In despair, an hour later, Rama went to his teacher and told him of this problem broom: how, in spite of his care and gentle treatment, it persisted in destroying his work. The Instructor, looking into the inner nature of the broom to discover what could be the cause of this peculiar happening, found his mind viewing a picture of its past. He saw the twigs of the broom, not as a broom but as a bush. And he saw how, daily, a careless herds-boy had passe= d by it, and how he struck the bush needlessly and wantonly with his stick as he drove his cattle to water. The bush had acquired the impulsive and careless nature of this wanton thoughtlessness as its own memory. And, in that process, it also built up resentment in its own dim way at the needles= s abuse it was made to endure. It was as though the life-atoms and selfishness of that long-ago, negligent boy had scattered, had been soaked up by the bush and now resided in it.=20=20 Now, the bush, made into a broom, allowed that resentment and anger so built up in its twigs to react with anyone that tried to use it. Rama tried to use it to tidy up the court, and its nature made it unwieldy and caused that scattering. The Teacher, called Rama to his side and taking the boom in hand he asked if the boy desired to teach eventually. Rama answered: "Yes." "Then," said his Instructor, "what would you do to handle someone who resented your teaching ?" "I would try harder to help him," answered Rama. "Go now, with your broom, and treat it as a difficult pupil, and see if you can help it to learn the lesson needed." And the teacher handed the broom back to Rama. Rama went back to his work, and at last succeeded in cleaning the court. It took many days of patient and careful work with that broom to secure from it a change. Rama never gave up his gentle but firm attempts. Gradually the brook became friendly an docile as Rama worked patiently with it, coaxing it to behave. A month went by and one morning, the Teacher seeing Rama, early and cheerfully at his usual morning task of sweeping the courtyard, asked him about his broom. "Master," replied Rama. "this broom has learned well, and it now does its work willingly and, we have become good friends."=20=20 The Master smiled, another student had passed the first of many tests before him. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: Perry=20 Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 6:36 PM To:=20 Subject: Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and reincarnation Dear Dallas and All, If `Compassion is the Law of Laws' then surely this can be act of compassion which will have its own karmic effects based on motive as you've said. I have seen programs on people who have received organ donations and then have taken on some of the attributes of that person so what you say is defiantly not without merit and worthy of serious consideration. (there was an excellent program on Discovery channel on this) However for me I feel the act of giving of oneself for the sake of another is a selfless and compassionate act. While the taking of blood or an organ may have a `negative' effect on us to a greater or lesser degree I cant believe that the underling skandas we've acquired over perhaps hundreds of lifetimes will be totally over run by the life saving organ or especially blood transfusion. If we all of a sudden get a taste for rap music or MacDonald's, well so be it I am still the same person underneath. And have been given an extra opportunity to work though karma and hopefully be of service to others in some way. If we only look at a negative then that's all we'll see. Regards Perry From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Dec 23 03:38:00 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 52913 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2004 11:38:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Dec 2004 11:38:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Dec 2004 11:37:59 -0000 Received: from [209.179.140.35] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1ChRHz-00071A-Ml; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 06:37:58 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE; b=YZRNQO9a+hIDqEbsAa5m4pR3/kB2KSOv2xJHQSHCOeB2hc9iyGp1v6o3k7VTNLGL; To: Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:36:54 -0800 Message-ID: <002801c4e8e3$d5bcffd0$238cb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <006601c4e6c4$017f1260$0301010a@versus> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7992ff0685ea8e25b159a4ec1b752281e3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.140.35 Subject: RE: Theos-World assassin, Transfusions, muyrder's hand and reincarnation _ Krishtar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 22 2004 Dear K: You are right that there is apparently a continued link (astral, magnetic= , pranic ?) between the material (and its underlying support on the astral plane) supplied (blood, tissue, organs, etc...) of the donor to the donee. I am not sure of all the rules involved. In ISIS UNVEILED, (Vol. 1, p. 207= , 246) HPB notes that a piece of flesh donated to repair a nose, "died" later, when the donor died. This is attributed there to "magnetic sympathy" and in addition it is said to relate to inter-plant sensitivities. I have heard some cases where recipients have felt the urge to act or copy aspects of the nature of the donor after receiving blood, organs, etc... So there may be something to it, other than a mere mechanical transfer of operating parts. So why are they not made of plastic or some other material= s I have no idea what happens nowadays with the complicated suppressants used to permit such grafting. It would be interesting to get more data on the subject. Theosophy gives no rules that compel anyone to do anything, nor does it mak= e pronouncements as to "compassion," or "fear of consequences."=20=20=20 The laws of Nature are discussed, and outlined. Men are individually left free to make use of the information on whatever basis they elect. That there is a moral effect in addition to physical ones is made clear.=20=20 Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From:=20 Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 10:45 AM To:=20 Subject: assassin, Transfusions, muyrder's hand and reincarnation _ Krishta= r Friend Dal Hi everybody. Glad to hear from you again . I cannot comment this email entirely now but I wanted to say that i once watched a trash movie in which the hand of an assassin being transplanted into an innocent man and then caused him acting so strange... and I cannot remember if he became or not a murderer... I also know that some people need a psychiatrist after a liver or heart transplant. Is it psychological influence ( living with an alien part in your body ) or occult laws in action? ..... . Dallas, doesn=B4t the karma attached to a body that has no life anymore fin= ish when the physical ego is released to the other spheres and won=B4t the eart= h decompose the organs anyway too? And once the organs are left they are transformed in organic matter, non-organized again. So the karma from the body parts are also transferred to the worms and bacterias, since everything is alive. Won=B4t the useful organs be more useful to someone who has the necessity o= f transplant than to the decompositors? Just views... Krishtar =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ----- Original Message -----=20 From: W.Dallas TenBroeck=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 12:09 PM Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and reincarnation Dec. 20 2004 Re: Blood Transfusions, Organ donations, etc. Transfusions and reincarnation Dear Perry: The application of technical medical processes is one thing. The motive behind the application is another. The processes of asepsis in hospitals and clinics are well known but not always applied meticulously.=20=20 But who knows the effect of the moral contagions inherent in another's body as a result of their life and karma? If and when this (a portion of another's Karma) is injected or introduced into another living body, a portion of the Karma comes along with the physical blood or organ There are enough cases on record of the subsequent feelings and problems that have been found to be consequent on the use of these processes.=20 THEOSOPHY deals with laws and explanations and observations impartially. = =20 It shows the astral structures and the "pranic-life currents" underlie the physical organs, blood and other structures. It says they impart their ow= n imprint in terms of life-memories and strengths (or weaknesses) wherever they go. The physical blood or organ conveys them. They are also conveye= d by massage, and acupressure for instance, and above all by the inner and powerful WILL of the doctor, nurse massager or practitioner.=20 The blood or organs of another person, no matter how closely related, are different from ours.=20=20 THEOSOPHY does not recommend such exchanges. I know this seems to violat= e current rules and attitudes. Next question is WHY ? How we make application is another thing altogether, as the moral aspect is involved and Karma is formed there, based on motive always. Lets ask another question. If THEOSOPHY is right in this, what effect ha= s such an exchange on the karma of the two Egos involved -- for their futur= e in their present life, and in a future life upon reincarnation ? Is this intimate relationship continued and desirable? What will be the karma of those who facilitate or participate in these processes? Is that not to b= e thought of?=20 I know this all sound vague and fuzzy, but that is because the matter is yet to be seized and made a part of investigation. Who believes in reincarnation anyway? The Chinese systems of the meridians in the body, whereon is built their system of acupuncture and acupressure; the Indian Ayurvedic lore is well aware of bodily meridians and interlinks, and practice here in the West of several kinds including Chiropractic is also built on this knowledge. Who has made a systematic investigation of thes= e systems and ancient knowledge?=20 No one "likes" fire to burn, or water to "drown." However, if misused they do that impartially and without malice. None of us are yet able to determine the future of another, in this or a future body.. If however we can use and apply the best techniques to sav= e life we do that with the motive of assistance. As for myself, (not a child) I have given strict instructions that no blood transfusions are to be made in case I need them medically, nor are any "heroic measures" to keep the body "alive" are to be used in case of coma or other determination of the passing away of consciousness. I do this in advance of any situation where I might be unable to assure medical or legal authorities that it is my desire to let my body die if it cannot heal and revive itself . But I am an adult, and, taking full responsibility, I can decide for myself what I will accept or not as treatment for my body. It is quite ridiculous to fear death. We don't fear sleeping, do we? An= d who is to say that our consciousness will return on awakening to the same body? In case of continued wakefulness under forced sleep deprivation it has been demonstrated that eventually these cause sleep or death.=20 But to decide for a child -- that is a matter for parents to consider as they have that duty, under Karma. I know this is an "open door." But again THEOSOPHY does not dogmatize for specific cases It says in effect: Use your common sense. Discover the Principles that are operative in all cases, and apply them.=20=20 In these days, to maintain a sure and fearless belief in reincarnation is rare. But then, who has yet seen or discussed the matter with the REAL INNER SPIRIT of any man or woman so far ? [ Or even in meditation with one's own Inner SELF ? Only THEOSOPHY speaks of this, and indicates ways in which i= t may be done.]=20 No, our sole knowledge is that the INNER SPIRIT, our Real Self, requires specifically a continuity in a single body; and its condition, before or after the death of that present body, is quite unknown and unprovable so far. Current beliefs state that the body and the indwelling SPIRIT are th= e same thing. But are they?=20 No, THEOSOPHY does not dogmatize, but it does offer the rules and facts o= f life, as it know it too be. Dal Dallas =20=20=20 -----Original Message----- From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:47 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Hi Dallas, I hope your well , As with all things we as individuals need to try and use wise discernment and certainly when it comes to ourselves our choices are our own based on our knowledge and understanding of occult principles. But when it comes to children who lives could have been saved by a blood transfusion, I simply find it outrageous that these children have been allowed to die over a discission made by the parents because of the blind following of dogma. I hope no theosophical student would ever follow any theosophical statement blindly no matter who wrote it. Theosophical study is one as you know that takes lifetimes of work and is not meant to be followed blindly but rather Self realised. The information may or may not be correct we can never presume that it is correct especially if a persons life other than our own hangs in the balance. What we choose for ourselves is another matter. Sorry to hear you've been in hospital hope alls ok! Regards Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: > Dec 19 2004 >=20 > Dear Perry: >=20 > What you say is correct and reflects the current medical view. >=20 > They know nothing of Occultism. >=20 > Preserving life in an old, decrepit and almost useless body is ridiculous in > the face of individual immortality and reincarnation -- which are spoofed at > by present day materialism in medicine and even law. >=20 > Let me put it this way: THEOSOPHY teaches a number of things that > materialism currently does not know anything about. That does not make > THEOSOPHY either dogmatic or wrong.=20=20 >=20 > But it ought to encourage deeper research. >=20 > The application of knowledge is always left to the one who provides it. The > motive for providing it is the desideratum of Karma. >=20 > In THEOSOPHY ethics and morals are everything. Science does not yet accept > those.=20 >=20 > So it is up to us to use or not use. >=20 > Dallas >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@y...]=20 > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 7:50 PM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed >=20 >=20 >=20 > Hello Dallas, > I was a little concerned over your comments on blood transfusions and > organ donations. > As an ex JW I know the needless and pointless suffering and waste of > life that can result from these type of dogmatic beliefs. >=20 > The ethical dimension to this is to me not just a matter of our > attachment to the body and/or the occult effects of having someone > else's blood in our veins but if we are able to extend our life though > either a blood transfusion or organ donation are we not duty bound to > use whatever means we can to either save someone else's > (especially!!!) life or our own as long as it is not at the cost of > another's? >=20 > The occult consequences of these procedures while perhaps coming at a > price may be far outweighed by the good we can do while in incarnation. >=20 > Perry >=20 >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" > wrote: > > Dec 18 2004 > >=20 > > Dear Vera: > >=20 > > You asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does THEOSOPHY > > offer anything. > >=20 > >=20 > > THEOSOPHY does not recommend either of these for the reason that the > astral > > body and Karma attached to those are always incompatible and > dangerous to > > some extent.=20 > >=20 > > Physical medicine and the science of modern healing look on the > human body > > as a fairly adaptable series if interchangeable parts - which is > not so. > >=20 > > The Universe organizes through the astral body each person with > their own > > particular set of personalized and individual organs and substances. > These > > are always related to the individual's Karma.=20 > >=20 > > To some extent Medical science recognizes incompatibilities such as > in blood > > transfusions and the compatibility (by DNA testing) of proposed organ > > transplants (heart, lungs, etc. ) and cures for cancer attacked > parts of the > > body.=20 > >=20 > > One of our problems is psychological: Most fear death. Those who > have had > > NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES ( NDE ) have lost such fear as they realize that > > they as SPIRITUAL SOULS survive physical death. Med. Sc. Tries to > preserve > > "life"-- at any cost, in the most shattered of physical bodies. > >=20 > > THEOSOPHY states all bodies are replaceable under nature's rules and > laws. > > And while everyone grieves for the loss of a loved one, There is the > > knowledge that under Karma we will all meet again, and love and live and > > work together, in the future. [ For example, we don't grieve when > one goes > > to sleep before another does? We know that we will wake up and continue > > life in a fresh day. It is so with the larger separation of "death." ] > >=20 > > I attach here an article written generally on this.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > THE CURE OF DISEASES > >=20 > >=20 > > MORTAL ills and the needs of the stomach rank next after the instinct of > > self-preservation among all the subjects which engage the attention > of the > > race.=20 > > If we do not go on living we cannot do the work we think there is to > do; if > > we remain hungry we will lose the power to work properly or to > enjoy, and at > > last come to the door of death. From bad or scanty food follows a > train of > > physical ills called generally disease.=20 > >=20 > > Disease reaches us also through too much food. So in every direction > these > > ills attack us; even when our feeding is correct and sufficient it > is found > > that we fall a prey because our Karma, settled by ourselves is some > previous > > life, ordains that we enter on this one handicapped by the > hereditary taint > > due to the wickedness or the errors of our fathers and mothers.=20 > >=20 > > And the records of science show that the taint in the blood or the > lymph may > > jump over many lives, attacking with virulence some generation > distant very > > far from the source.=20 > >=20 > > What wonder, then that the cure of disease is an all-absorbing > subject with > > every one! The Christian knows that it is decreed by Almighty God > that He > > will visit the sins of the fathers upon the children even to the > third and > > fourth generation, and the non-believer sees that by some power in > nature > > the penalty is felt even so far. > >=20 > > All of this has given to the schools of mental and so-called > "metaphysical" > > healing a strong pull on the fears, the feelings, the wishes, and > the bodies > > of those to whom they address themselves, and especially in the Unite= d > > States.=20 > > That there is more attention given to the subject in America seems > true to > > those who have been on the other side of the Atlantic and noticed > how small > > is the proportion of people there who know anything about the > subject. But > > in the United States in every town many can be found who know about > these > > schools and practice after their methods. Why it has more hold here > can be > > left to conjecture, as the point under consideration is why it has > any hold > > at all. It is something like patent medicine.=20 > >=20 > > Offer a cure to people for their many ills, and they will take it > up; offer > > it cheap, and they will use it; offer it as an easy method, and they > will > > rush for it under certain conditions.=20 > >=20 > > Metaphysical healing is easy for some because it declares, first, > that no > > money need be paid to doctors for medicine; second, that medical > fluids and > > drugs may be dispensed with; and third that it is easily learned and > > practiced. The difficulties that arise out of the necessities of > logic are > > not present for those who never studied it, but are somewhat potent with > > those who reason correctly; - but that is not usual for the general > run of > > minds.=20 > >=20 > > They see certain effects and accept the assumed cause as the right > one. But > > many persons will not even investigate the system, because they think it > > requires them to postulate the non-existence of that which they see > before > > their eyes.=20 > >=20 > > The statements quoted from the monthly Christian Science in March > PATH are > > bars in the way of such minds. If they could be induced to just try the > > method offered for cure, belief might result, for effects indeed ofte= n > > follow.=20 > >=20 > > But the popular mind is not in favor of "mind cure," and more > prominence is > > given in the daily papers to cases of death under it than to cures. > And very > > full reports always appear of a case such as one in March, where "faith > > curers," in order to restore life, went to praying over the dead > body of one > > of the members of a believing family. > >=20 > > During a recent tour over this country from the Atlantic to the > Pacific and > > back, I had the opportunity of meeting hundreds of disciples of these > > schools, and found in nearly all cases that they were not addicted > to logic > > but calmly ignored very plain propositions, satisfied that if cures were > > accomplished the cause claimed must be the right one, and almost without > > exception they denied the existence of evil or pain or suffering.=20 > >=20 > > There was a concurrence of testimony from all to show that the > dominant idea > > in their minds was the cure of their bodily ills and the continuance of > > health. The accent was not on the beauty of holiness or the value to > them > > and the community of a right moral system and right life, but on the > cure of > > their diseases.=20 > >=20 > > So the conclusion has been forced home that all these schools exist > because > > people desire to be well more than they desire to be good, although > they do > > not object to goodness if that shall bring wholeness. > >=20 > > And, indeed, one does not have to be good to gain the benefit of the > > teachings. It is enough to have confidence, to assert boldly that > this does > > not exist and that that has no power to hurt one.=20 > > I do not say the teachers of the "science" agree with me herein, but > only > > that whether you are good or bad the results will follow the firm > practice > > of the method enjoined, irrespective of the ideas of the teachers. > >=20 > > For in pure mind-cure as compared with its congener "Christian > Science," you > > do not have to believe in Jesus and the gospels, yet the same > results are > > claimed, for Jesus taught that whatever you prayed for with faith, > that you > > should have. > >=20 > > Scientific research discloses that the bodies of our race are > infected with > > taints that cause nearly all of our diseases, and school after school of > > medicine has tried and still tries to find the remedy that will > dislodge the > > foulness in the blood.=20 > >=20 > > This is scientific, since it seeks the real physical cause; metaphysical > > healing says it cures, but cannot prove that the cause is destroyed > and not > > merely palliated.=20 > >=20 > > That there is some room for doubt history shows us, for none will > deny that > > many pure thinking and acting pair have brought forth children who > displayed > > some taint derived from a distant ancestor. Evidently their pure > individual > > thoughts had no power over the great universal development of the matter > > used by those human bodies. > >=20 > > Turning now to medicine we find the Italian Count Mattei promulgating a > > system of cure by the homeopathic use of subtle vegetable essences > which may > > well give pause to those who would make universal the curing by faith or > > mind alone. Some of his liquids will instantly stop a violent pain, > restore > > sight, give back hearing, and dissipate abnormal growths. His > globules will > > make a drunken man sober, and, given to the nurse who suckles a > babe, will > > cure the child who takes the milk. The drunkard and the child do not > think > > about or have faith in the remedies, yet they cure. Is it not better to > > restore health by physical means and leave the high teachings of the > > healers, all taken from well know sources, for the benefit of our moral > > nature?=20 > >=20 > > And if Christian healers read these lines, should they not remember that > > when the prophet restored the widow's son he used physical means - > his own > > magnetism applied simultaneously to every member of the child's > body, and > > Jesus, when the woman who touched his garment was cured, lost a > portion of > > his vitality - not his thoughts - for he said "virtue" had gone out from > > him?=20 > > The Apostle also gave directions that if any were sick the others should > > assemble about the bed and anoint with oil, laying on their hands > meanwhile: > > simply physical therapeutics following a long line of ancient precedent > > dating back to Noah.=20 > >=20 > > Moses taught how to cure diseases and to disinfect places where > contagion > > lurked. It was not by using the high power of thought, but by processes > > deemed by him to be effectual, such as sprinkling blood of animals > > slaughtered in peculiar circumstances.=20 > >=20 > > Without declaring for or against his methods, it is very certain that he > > supposed by these means subtle forces of a physical nature would be > > liberated and brought to bear on the case in hand. > >=20 > > The mass of testimony through the ages is against healing physical > ills by > > the use of the higher forces in nature, and the reason, once well > known but > > later on forgotten, is the one given in the article of January, > 1892, - that > > diseases are gross manifestations showing themselves on their way > out of the > > nature so that one may be purified.=20 > >=20 > > To arrest them though thought ignorantly directed is to throw them > back into > > their cause and replant them in their mental plane. > >=20 > > This is the true ground of our objection to metaphysical healing > practices, > > which we distinguish from the assumptions and so-called philosophy > on which > > those methods are claimed to stand. For we distinctly urge that the > effects > > are not brought by any philosophical system whatever, but by the > practical > > though ignorant use of psycho-physiological processes. > >=20 > > William Q. Judge Path, September, 1892 > >=20 > >=20 > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >=20 > > I hope this may be of some help, > >=20 > >=20 > > Best wishes, > >=20 > > Dallas > >=20 > >=20 > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Vera Santos=20 > > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 3:30 PM > > To:=20 > > Subject: [bn-study] help needed > >=20 > > Your friend asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does > > THEOSOPHY offer anything. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20 From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Dec 24 00:18:51 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78853 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 05:15:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2004 05:15:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.122) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 05:15:29 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.189] (helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1ChhnI-0006F1-VZ for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:15:17 +0000 Message-ID: <41CBA69A.9080109@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:18:18 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <00c201c4e7ae$22f0aae0$fe69013d@k1> <001c01c4e853$d5ee2460$0301010a@versus> <41CA3587.9020301@sprynet.com> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on chi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.122 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World Masters Man or woman X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Bart Lidofsky wrote: > krishtar wrote: > >>Why are the Masters always characterized as male and not as a female >>creature too? Aren´t there women who have reached their enlightenment >>in History of spirituality or the masculine gender has always hush it >>up? > > > What purpose would have been served by having them be women? > > Bart I don't know about purpose, but I gather Isis was a woman, brother of Osiris, and apparently the pair of them had something to do with civilizing some ancient Egyptians. I'm tending to speculate along the lines that those two might seem like "Masters" to some people. I wonder if males might've been generally seen as more applicable, (per traditional notions about roles), especially in the old old days. Speculatively, Mauri From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Dec 24 00:56:25 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 25798 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 04:28:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2004 04:28:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m24.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.5) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 04:28:20 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id f.55.693500bc (4238); Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:27:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <55.693500bc.2efcf4a2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:27:14 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.5 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: FRACTALS IN MOTION X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 For more on fractal images... Check out these sites and find out all about fractal geometry used to create fractal images that you can play with. http://mathforum.org/alejandre/applet.mandlebrot.html http://math.rice.edu/~lanius/fractals/ Then Go to google.com and use keyword "Fractals" to find many sites that show fractal illustrations, and offer programs that enable you to make your own Fractal designs. (Also search keywords: "Fractal Domains" - "Aros Fractals" for programs which you can download free.) Also, check out this site... http://www.tnlc.com/eep/circles.html ... Explaining the symbology and history, as well as showing a circular or (in cross-section) spherical fractal image -- whose circumference is infinite and whose center is everywhere ... Such as described in the ABC theory; As, the manner in which the initial coadunate but not consubstantial spherical fields of consciousness of the Cosmos first involve out of the initial "spinergy," in triune steps, like bubbles within bubbles within bubbles -- while the outer sphere rotates on one of its three axes or polar directions. Incidentally, from this cyclic motional force (considered as angular momentum) fractally descending through all the inner spheres of consciousness -- all the electromechanical laws of mass/energy can be derived -- possibly using simple algebraic equations (such as E=mc^2 :-). Note that even in the contrived higher mathematics of quantum physics, the fundamental basis of all the forces is "spin." Have fun, LHM http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html (Possible Cosmic involution diagram.) http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Invlutionfldmirror2.gif (How the Cosmic fields and the Human Chakra fields may interrelate.) http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Chakrafielddiag-fig.col.jpg In a message dated 12/23/04 7:37:09 AM, dalval14@earthlink.net writes: >Fascinating. > >Do you have access to any other site where fractals are illustrated? > >D > >Dallas From dennw3k@earthlink.net Fri Dec 24 01:14:51 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15537 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 01:20:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2004 01:20:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 01:20:16 -0000 Received: from [209.178.130.154] (helo=u7k5a4) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Che7m-0000sY-NM for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:20:11 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=iR6mWiepIYU1sdW/FFpv72PQOuaIBag3fgoKKQ0Hq8Knd0tSmtzgX35JMtWLii8n; Message-ID: <000601c4e956$782eaa80$9a82b2d1@u7k5a4> To: References: Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:51:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 55ecc707afea0d96d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bcf34d251c3fd1dd800b9b21cff5622a42350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.65 From: "Dennis Kier" X-Originating-IP: 209.178.130.154 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and Bab 5 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38993992 I am also a fan of the Babylon 5 series. I have all the episodes on tape, and try to watch it once a year. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Perry Coles" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 7:41 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and Bab 5 > > > Hi John, > That's a good way of looking at it. > I am a big fan of Babylon 5 myself, its full of theosophical concepts. > > Anyone you hasn't watch the series it's a good idea to work yourself > forward from the start rather than watch the series haphazardly as the > story line arcs and gets more and more interesting as the series unfolds. > > Perry From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Dec 24 01:34:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 83928 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 05:03:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2004 05:03:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gatekeeper.look.ca) (207.136.80.8) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 05:03:49 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.163] (helo=idirect.ca) by gatekeeper.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Chhc0-0003IW-Da for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:03:36 +0000 Message-ID: <41CBA3DE.4020005@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:06:38 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <00c201c4e7ae$22f0aae0$fe69013d@k1> <001c01c4e853$d5ee2460$0301010a@versus> <41CA3587.9020301@sprynet.com> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on chi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.8 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World Masters Man or woman X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Bart Lidofsky wrote: > krishtar wrote: > >>Why are the Masters always characterized as male and not as a female >>creature too? Aren´t there women who have reached their enlightenment >>in History of spirituality or the masculine gender has always hush it >>up? > > > What purpose would have been served by having them be women? > > Bart Graham Hancock in his FINGERPRINTS OF THE GODS writes about "civilizers" (Osiris, Thoth, Kukulkan, Quetzalcoatl, Varichoca, etc) who appeard in various countries around the world in "prehistoric" times, but seems they all were definitely bearded, so ... One might wonder why they would all be male ... But, for all I know, maybe women had beards in those days. Speculatively, Mauri From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Dec 24 02:44:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73887 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 04:36:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2004 04:36:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO keymaster.look.ca) (207.136.80.9) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 04:36:11 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.42] (helo=idirect.ca) by keymaster.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1ChhBR-0005WS-FY for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:36:09 +0000 Message-ID: <41CB9D6E.8070907@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:39:10 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <41C98A7C.2030207@idirect.ca> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.9 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World re "everyone have a happy holiday season" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Mauri wrote: > Somebody said: "Everyone have a happy > holiday season." > > when people say things like that I start > wondering about the rest of the year. I > mean, if one sets aside a particular > time of year in which to be "happy," > (whatever that might mean more > specifically), then wouldn't that > automatically set up a chain reaction in > a dualistic world, making for "unhappy" > times ahead ... Anyway, I'm trying not > to be too happy or too sad or too > anything. So I guess I'm wishing > everyone sort of middle-of-the-road > things that aren't too seasonal or too > unseasonal. > > ^:-/ ... > Mauri Not that certain traditional greetings and customs aren't generally understood in a certain way (whatever that might mean more specifically), needless to say ... ^:-/ ... Mauri PS That's my symbol for a speculative guy who thought he might've had something important enough to say, but wound up scratching his head. From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Dec 24 05:13:43 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 23378 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 09:50:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2004 09:50:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d21.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.207) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 09:50:36 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1e1.3223244f (4238) for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:50:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1e1.3223244f.2efd4068@aol.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:50:32 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.144.207 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: fractal evolution X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Dear Cass, I can't comment too much on the quote from Hazrat Inayat Khan's book -- since it is written in metaphorical terms... That, while abstractly sensible from a spiritual point of view and possibly helpful to his devotees, does not relate to my scientifically sound metaphysical view. This view does not consider any vacuum or "empty" space that is not "full" of abstract motion, and thus, pure force -- as the infinite angular momentum of the zero-point "spinergy" -- which, when transformed from abstract to concrete in terms of involved coenergetic fields of consciousness, becomes matter or substance. Thus, the statement, "Nature abhors a vacuum" is true, as I see it... Since, nature is that fullness of physical space we experience around us, and which contains no "empty space" other than the absolute zero-point itself -- which is the root of pure consciousness -- that is outside of all space and time. On the other hand, since the zero-point must be everywhere, we can say that the vacuum or "void" (represented by that zero-point) and matter are coterminous... And, therefore, the fields of consciousness are coadunate but not consubstantial -- being one inside the other ad infinitum. Thus, we might also say that Khan's view and my scientific metaphysical view are essentially the same -- since we both can conclude (although he speaks of it metaphorically, and I explain it in scientific terms, geometrically and coenergetically) that the universe is both infinitely divisible and infinitely expandable, one and many, empty and full, and that spirit and matter are just two opposite sides of the same coin. :-) As for the imbalance you speak of in the universal field diagrams... For simplicity these basic symbolic diagrams only show the positive ray of energy that forms the monadic fields of "light" matter. Actually, each ray is dual, being projected or radiated simultaneously, clockwise and counterclockwise, in opposite directions... Since, they must emanate from the zero-point as positive (attractive) and negative (repulsive) rays of energy that ultimately entwine parallel to each other as they involve and spirally knit the fractally descending monadic fields of consciousness. These fields, in turn, are then both positive and negative with respect their individual polarities... And, also, with respect to the energy fields that are generated between the entwined parallel rays of primal force that carryy the vibrational holographic image patterns that constitute the phenomenal intelligence of the Cosmos (that of the Dhyan Chohans) -- which intelligence was originally encoded within the primal zero-point spinergy prior to manifestation. Thus, in later evolutionary processes every particle or wave of positive charge must be balanced by an equal and opposite particle or wave of negative charge. The only difference being the direction of fundamental spin of the central zero-point within the particle or on the wave. Therefore, science speaks of both matter and antimatter, electrons and positrons, light matter and dark matter, etc. It's not correct, however, to see the descending fields of consciousness that form the seven fold nature of both the universe and man, as being negative or positive. Each field must not only be in balance internally between its negative and positive energies -- but must also have a negative and positive polarity that meets at the zero-point juncture between the adjacent fields. Therefore, we can say that everything in the universe is connected to everything else through their differences in polarity or positive-negative charge or magnetic attraction and repulsion, etc., on all seven levels. One of the confusions that comes about when we speak of a "seven fold" nature, is that these "folds" only apply to the polar junctions between the inner fields as they descend and enfold within each other. Referring to the Chakrafield diagram (which is symbolical only, although geometrically and topologically consistent); Actually, we can see that there are eight such inner fields. Four above the center point and four below. With the topmost inner chakrafield being linked to the highest level (positive pole) of the surrounding spiritual (or "ring pass not") field, and the bottom-most field being connected to the lowest level (negative pole) of the surrounding field. Thus, the six inner fields between them are what constitute our material nature (Buddhi to Physical Body) between Atma and the inner world of super dense energies at the sub-quantum level. Since that level is below our sensory ability to experience directly (and is part of the occult secrets that refer to magic processes) -- most theosophical teachers rarely speak about it publicly. Actually, we have eight inner natures rather than seven -- which the Buddha correctly euphemizes as the "Eight fold path" without revealing any of the secrets of the Kriashakti or Kundalini levels of reality [which I won't, either ;-]. I hope some of this helps you get closer to understanding my ABC field theory. Actually, the only thing truly abstract in it is the zero-point and its spinergy -- since the fields that emanate from that abstract point follow definite geographic and topographic paths that are entirely logical (vide, the fractal geometry of their internal progression as they return inward from the infinite outer rim of the Cosmos to each zero-point center that is everywhere within every thing in the Cosmos)... Although, one has to bend one's mind a bit to see how the inner dimensions involve as hyperspace fields within fields within fields, etc., that are enfolded, invisibly, *inside* the metric physical space-time continuum our bodies are in (and also inside our bodies and every cell and particle within them, ad infinitum). To see all that as one consistent "diversity within a unity" -- puts the man inside the big picture, and the big picture inside the man :-)... As above, so below. So, swing over and settle down on a comfortable branch between the two, peel a banana, take a bite, and contemplate where their umbilical cords meet. These pictures may help: http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Chakrafielddiag-fig.col.jpg http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/TaiChiFldDiag-figure-2.gif May you and your family enjoy a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Warm regards and Best wishes, Leon Maurer In a message dated 12/22/04 2:14:19 AM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: > >Dear Leo >As dense as I am, I am slowly trying to assimilate your work, it is very >abstract and my constructive (non-abstract) mind keeps jumping between >the big picture to the man in the picture. My friend once told me I was >like a monkey that keeps swinging from tree to tree, and she was very accurate. > Anyway, I have been reading Hazrat Inayat Khan, "The Divinity of the Human >Soul" Volume X11, Chapters XI-XIII. It is very interesting if you could >get a chance to read it. Here is a paragraph. >"But what is most interesting is the study of spirit and matter is the >nature of vacuum and substance. Substance has a tendency to add substance >to itself and to turn all that it attracts into the sam substance, and >vacuum has a tendency to make a greater vacuum. This shows that there >is a continual struggle between substance and vacuum. Where vacuum can >get hold of substance it will turn the substance into vacuum, and where >substance is stronger it will turn out vacuum and make substance. The >idea behind this is not what we might think. We think of vacuum as being >nothing; we rcognize vacuum by contrasting it with substance, but in reality >substance has arisen from vacuum; vacuum is the womb of substance. Substance >has been composed in vacuum and has developed in it; it has formed itself, >it has constructed itself, and it will again be dissolved in the vaccum. > There can be no form without a vacuum, visible or invisible (CS; THERE >GOES NATURE ABHORS A VACUUM THEORY!). > Everywhere there is a vacuum, and we cannot recognize as a vacuum that >which our eyes cannot see. >The difference between the nature of vacuum and the nature of substance >is that vacuum is knowing. In the mineral kingdom the stone is dense; >the reason is that it has little vacuum. Animals and birds show greater >signs of life and a more pronounced knowing quality because the vacuum >in them is greater still; and in man it is even more so. What makes one >part of substance knowing and keeps another part without this faculty of >knowing is the vacuum in one object and the denseness in another. >There is a third thing, we should understand concerning this subject which >is of great importance: that which stands between vacuum and substance >is capacity. When we look at the sky we feel that it is a vacuum; it seems >to be nothing, but in reality it is not nothing, it is capacity. Vacuum-is >all-knowing, but it is capacity which enables vacuum to know....There is >nothing in this world, whether a stone, a tree, a mountain or a river, >water or fire, earth, air anything, which is not in itself a capacity; >it cannot exist withou being a capacity. >Among Sufis there is a spiritual culture, a culture which recognizes four >centres, each centre being a vacuum, or a capacity, for pure intelligence >to function in. This shows that man has the greatest possibility of knowing >all that is knowable, and he has an even greater capacity than that: to >realize all that can be known. If he only knew how he could achieve it! >But, one may say, why must substance coming from vacuum learn to know, >when vacuum is already the all-knowing state? The all-knowin state is >not the same as a limited knowing state.... > >The whole of manifestation may thus be regarded as a continual conflict >between spirit and matter; the spirit developing into matter on the one >hand and assimilating matter on the other. > >What is absorbed from space has the effect upon that which absorbs it of >opening it up and of forming a vacuum. (gives example of plant life absorbing >more signs of life (intelligence) by absorbing more from space. > >Where there is a hole this hole has a tendency to become larger, and where >there is a little substance there is a tendency for that substance to increase; >this shows the tendencies of spirit and matter, the continual conflict >that exists between spirit and matter. On the one part of matter there >is always a tendency to absorb, and on the part of spirit there is always >a tendency to assimilate. > >The difference between what we call an object and a living being is the >difference in the degree of spirit they absorb. > >The question arises why, if spirit and matter are one and the same, is >there then a need for anything or anyone to absorb spirit? Matter is something >which is ever changing; it is continually going through a process of change; >and we call this change destruction or death, or we say of matter that >it is decomposed or destroyed. In reality it has taken another form, but >this form is also changed by spirit and made into something else. (gives >example of coal into diamond) > >What is consciousness? Consciousness is the knowing faculty, but it is >the knowing faculty when it has some knowledge; it is only then that we >call it consciousness. One is conscious of something; consciousness must >always be conscious of something. When consciousness is not conscious >of anything it is pure intelligence. It is in this realization that the >greatest secret of life can be revealed. > >Cass >p.s. have been looking at your diagrams, and was wondering about the zero >laya point not being in balance as it differentiates (uncoils) to form >the Upper 3 and the Lower 4 planes of consciousness. I don't really know >what I am trying to say here, but if the zero lay point was central, then >shouldnt it uncoil from 3.5? maintaining a balance or tension of positive >negative fields? > >Anyway lots of ho ho ho to yourself and family this Christmas > >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > >Dear Cass, > >The notes on my ABC theory are at: >http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics >Some of the reference illustrations are listed below in my previous >commentary appended here. >I would be happy to answer any questions you may have about them, or hear >any >comments or suggestions you might make. > >Best wishes, >Leon > > >In a message dated 12/14/04 9:12:33 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: > >>Dear Leon >>I am very happy for you to share my ruminations with anyone. Your reply >>is fascinating and I am now going to print and read it quietly, in the >>sun, on my back verandah. Could you please resend me your website on your >>ABC Theory so that I can look at it in this new light. >>Many thanks >>Cass >> >LeonMaurer@aol.com wrote: From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Dec 24 07:32:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 76304 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 12:46:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2004 12:46:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 12:46:16 -0000 Received: from [209.179.128.11] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1ChopV-0001WM-LW; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 07:46:09 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE; b=CJMc/8mCDLy5TiE8Nofz9Xkg40f+iR1qEwswEULNpLeycqKOLd2a7RN1vtvPOOmF; To: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:45:41 -0800 Message-ID: <001601c4e9b6$85dc3f20$0b80b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79264875561e3bfd4d01b5916b521a4252350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.61 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.128.11 Subject: RE: [bn-study] Re: 2005 A NEW CYCLE X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 24 2004 Dear Friend:=20=20 I am not a prophet and cannot pretend to interpret HPB. I am sure my friend Leon Maurer may want to comment on this also so I am sending him a copy of this. (Dear Lenny: Have you the time? ) When HPB deals with the future (our present ?) she points to general principles. Materialism is already being altered. The discovery of radio-activity and sub-atomic particles (1887/90) has led Sconce to the realm of forces and energies as well as to magnetic spheres of interacting force at near and fa= r distances, and under unusual stresses.=20=20 The evidence is being sifted actively. We have as a result: "Indeterminacy," "Chaos theory," and "String theory." There is a continue= d attempt being made to arrive at a "unified Field theory" 0r " A theory of Everything." I believe HPB predicts that unless the moral factor is added= , these discoveries, and re-proving of facts known to ancient philosophers, will not be successful.=20=20 These are both philosophical and experimental.=20=20 Further, the investigation of deep Space has added greatly to our understanding of our particular position as a very small Earth in a very large Universe, and the respect that LIFE has for the least of its components -- all guided by trustworthy laws.=20=20 What we need to learn is that LAWS govern the individual advance of every human being. This advance depends on their ability to choose freely. This capacity to choose makes the Mind grow. Also, a self-energised and self-chosen course of personal action -- such, as will best assist and comply with the well being of all others around him or her -- will prove to be the best for the individual and the community, near and far. This may sound like vague "goody-goody-ness" but it is not It is most serious. Ther= e is a MORAL FIELD and it can be defined as "good-will" in all cases, to and fr everyone.=20 Continued attempts to discover a "Unified Field Theory" that will encompass both close and distant phenomena and reconcile all forms of "attraction and repulsion" with "say, "Gravity" are evidence of this.=20=20 The application has to be humanized, (moralized ?) as well as, seen to be rigid, faithful and true in the realm of physics, chemistry, engineering, spatial mechanics, economics, as well as in social and political areas, etc... In other words "Karma" works for all, and in every field, without any favorites. What does THEOSOPHY do? It describes the Laws of Nature and speaks of a common goal for all: SUBLIME INDIVIDUAL PERFECTION. In this process (see the closing 10 Pages of The VOICE OF THE SILENCE) each "man-mind" becomes a "God-Man" with a mind that encompasses all factors. No wonder immortalit= y entails a number of incarnations to finally achieve such eminence.=20=20=20 It posits a unified and determined Universal Plenum which, like SPACE canno= t be defined or time-determined.=20=20 It states that the whole Universe is pervaded with the duality of (1) SPIRI= T (or TRUTH and LAW, and (2) MATTER (which is constituted of innumerable intelligent but continually altering forms that intelligently coalesce, disintegrate and then reintegrate --- making for "Chaos, Illusion and "Maya). The Universe has no, and yet it also has all, time-frames. The Universe is pervaded with (3) intelligence and consciousness as a whole, and also has this present individually in its constituent units. The Units have been named "Monads, ( or spirit/matter dualities ).=20=20 In "manifestation" are the opportunities for advancement and learning. Between manifestations, the Universe sleeps and assimilates the experience acquired, and then, it reawakens to re-begin its vast Pilgrimage.=20=20 A third essential Presence is required here, as there is the need for a "conscious" (a perceptive, analytical) bridge between these two extremes (SPIRIT / MATTER), and that is: (3) "Mind."=20 Vast periods of time are consumed in "manifestation," as intelligence works in and through continually changing forms. These tremendously complicated processes are all guided by their inherent LAWS.=20 Intelligence and consciousness have to be studied in all forms as well as laws that lead to conscious "god-hood" as an objective for every human. On= e of the philosophical conditions THEOSOPHY states, is that the realm of SPIRIT is that of an impartial, UNIVERSAL DEITY. Every "Monad" has this "deity" within itself as an essential component. The process of evolutionary experience and reincarnation allows this inner "God" to blossom; and, as the material envelope is purified, it is enabled to shine through.=20 The experience of such contacts and actions through reincarnation and independent individual life has three broad phases:=20=20 (1) Unconsciousness (or the instincts that are developed lover ages in and through the 'lower' kingdoms of the Universe -- monadic-essence, elementals, minerals, vegetables and animals);=20 (2) Self-Consciousness ( or the condition of mankind everywhere -- during which phase, the MIND is developed -- the objective being to give it a knowledge, over many incarnations, of the whole functioning of the Universe and its many Laws, which can be summed up in a single word or idea: BROTHERHOOD ), and,=20 (3) Universal Self-Consciousness (the condition of those who have achieved = a complete knowledge of the workings of the Universe as a whole, and also in its many divisions and parts -- this results in compassion and love for all that lives, These are known to us vaguely as the Adepts, Initiates, Sages, Mahatmas, Buddhas, Magi, Bodhisattvas, Rishis, Dhyanis, Avatars, etc... This condition is one of GUARDIANSHIP and INSTRUCTION -- a careful nurturin= g care for all humans, everywhere in the Universe, regardless of the kind of "form" they use. -- see S D I 272-3, 207-210 ) The third group (Adepts, Buddhas, etc., ) is aware of the laws of the Universe which support life everywhere, and They are universally sensitive to the needs of the least of its many components.=20=20 You will find that THEOSOPHY supports this essential aspect of development as part of the Mind-phase of progress for every Monad.=20=20 Call it, one might say, the learning of the distinction between virtue (which is life-giving) and vice (which produces the death of the Mind-soul)= . Put it in another way: It is between sharing wisdom and the pleasure of complete generosity, and the terrible selfishness of personal isolation.=20 You will see how this view of the Universe, our World, and our purpose as humans (that can use their minds and choose freely and independently), here= , as immortal reincarnating Monads, all comes together in what some call Philosophy or Mysticism.=20 The uncertainty implied in mysticism revolves around reincarnation, and the ultimate purpose of living. It also obscures the fact that inherently we are Divine, God-like Pilgrims, and individually we are all bent on self-improvement as well as on sharing what we learn with others. The "God-within" is forever seeking ways to awaken us from our personal darknes= s -- a darkness of matter, that isolates it from the friendship of a love that encompasses all around it.=20 Ignorance and neglect of this last factor will produce a "flood" that will carry away those who fail to grasp this essential purpose of all evolution. This is a psychological, and intellectual "flood," and not necessarily a physical "flood.=20 This is what we need to assure ourselves of. It can only be done through a most careful analysis of our own nature and specifically of our usual tend of personal desires and objectives. Find out what their true worth is. Do they tend to make us immortals, or do they relate to our present life alone= , and perish when this body dies? The great Buddha said: "Those who are wis= e live eternally, the foolish and selfish ones are already dead." DHAMMAPADA= =20 What attitude of living gives us immortality? What kind brings our particular life-string to cessation and death? This is a command that we neglect at our peril.=20 I hope this is of help. Dallas P S Have a look at this correlate: LEARNING and TEACHING Learning: don't you think it is a matter of first "desire," and then, of "attention?" Desire focuses a "wish to learn." Attention then directs the various sense= s of the body to contribute their abilities to viewing and recording what is desired to be learned? Pleasure or amusement is a matter of "desire" or "liking." Anyone who has = a "passion" for a special subject knows how strong this can be. It is facult= y different from mind and reasoning, isn't it?=20=20 Some love to learn -- anything. Others channel their interest in personal objectives.=20=20 But if we look at the world around us, we see that it keeps the areas of learning in all areas open to those who desire to find out. The Universe (which supports all life everywhere) has to keep all options open, so that the vast diversity of human interest may be satisfied, as also, the harmony of its diversities may be able to run cooperatively. If we look back in history we note that certain personages stand out becaus= e they devoted their lives to learning and then telling others about what the= y discovered in nature, it (Nature, or the Universe) being established there since the beginning of time. Some were great scientists, religious reformers, artists, geniuses, political and administration reformers. One outstanding characteristic of all is their willingness to teach others, and to sacrifice their lives for the truths they discovered and practised. VIRTUE AND VICE It is interesting to note that all people KNOW innately the truth and fairness of life and events. But they do not always practice openly that which they know is true. This separation makes for evil and vice. Those wh= o are evil-natured try to pretend to others, and to the world, that they are honest and upright citizens. Some who fancy their "might" is their right, may choose to become tyrants of various kinds in government, politics, illicit and immoral trades, arms, drugs, and other illicit business. But look at the whole scene: Is it another proof of the three things that are basic to every person and every situation -- that are needed ? 1. An Ego or Mind that grows by learning. 2. The "Desire" that keeps attention to learning focussed -- in this case learning, would be also pleasure. 3. The necessary tools, eyes, ears, touch (fingers ?), smell, taste, etc.. are sharpened and trained to do the contacting, recording and the learning.=20=20 Finally the mind, as a storage place for impressions, is made an ever more keen storage place for those memories. To the extent that we can impersonalize our desires, to that extent our memories remain true to that which was observed. Memory always deals with the past. Anticipation and hope are for the future= . But there has to be an effort to avoid prejudging, or the events we observe in the future are likely to be colored by our prejudices. They will, then, not be true. But of necessity there is always in every one of us, the central EGO -- tha= t which directs the mind and controls the limits of the desire faculty. The EGO (Buddhi-Manas) or the higher Mind is the immortal entity in each of us -- the REINCARNATING SELF -- it uses many bodies progressively, THEOSOPHY teaches. So as we pass from life to life there is always the possibility of improving the moral nature, and showing it outwardly more fearlessly and boldly.=20 ----------------------------------------------- 3 Then there is this, as a broad view of Education: THEOSOPHY AND EDUCATION.=20 ENQUIRER. One of your strongest arguments for the inadequacy of the existin= g forms of religion in the West, as also to some extent the materialistic philosophy which is now so popular, but which you seem to consider as an abomination of desolation, is the large amount of misery and wretchedness which undeniably exists, especially in our great cities. But surely you mus= t recognise how much has been, and is being done to remedy this state of things by the spread of education and the diffusion of intelligence. THEOSOPHIST. The future generations will hardly thank you for such a "diffusion of intelligence," nor will your present education do much good t= o the poor starving masses.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Ah! but you must give us time. It is only a few years since we began to educate the people.=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. And what, pray, has your Christian religion been doing ever since the fifteenth century, once you acknowledge that the education of the masses has not been attempted till now =AF the very work, if ever there cou= ld be one, which a Christian, i. e., a Christ-following church and people, ought to perform?=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Well, you may be right; but now=AF=20=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Just let us consider this question of education from a broad standpoint, and I will prove to you that you are doing harm not good, with many of your boasted improvements. The schools for the poorer children, though far less useful than they ought to be, are good in contrast with the vile surroundings to which they are doomed by your modern Society. The infusion of a little practical Theosophy would help a hundred times more in life the poor suffering masses than all this infusion of (useless) intelligence.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. But, really=AF=20=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Let me finish, please. You have opened a subject on which we Theosophists feel deeply, and I must have my say. I quite agree that there is a great advantage to a small child bred in the slums, having the gutter for playground, and living amid continued coarseness of gesture and word, i= n being placed daily in a bright, clean school-room hung with pictures, and often gay with flowers. There it is taught to be clean, gentle, orderly; there it learns to sing and to play; has toys that awaken its intelligence; learns to use its fingers deftly; is spoken to with a smile instead of a frown; is gently rebuked or coaxed instead of cursed. All this humanizes th= e children, arouses their brains, and renders them susceptible to intellectua= l and moral influences. The schools are not all they might be and ought to be= ; but, compared with the homes, they are paradises; and they slowly are re-acting on the homes. But while this is true of many of the Board schools= , your system deserves the worst one can say of it.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. So be it; go on.=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. What is the real object of modern education? Is it to cultivat= e and develop the mind in the right direction; to teach the disinherited and hapless people to carry with fortitude the burden of life (allotted them by Karma); to strengthen their will; to inculcate in them the love of one's neighbour and the feeling of mutual interdependence and brotherhood; and thus to train and form the character for practical life? Not a bit of it. And yet, these are undeniably the objects of all true education. No one denies it; all your educationalists admit it, and talk very big indeed on the subject. But what is the practical result of their action?=20 Every young man and boy, nay, every one of the younger generation of schoolmasters will answer: "The object of modern education is to pass examinations," a system not to develop right emulation, but to generate and breed jealousy, envy, hatred almost, in young people for one another, and thus train them for a life of ferocious selfishness and struggle for honour= s and emoluments instead of kindly feeling.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. I must admit you are right there.=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. And what are these examinations=AF the terror of modern boyhoo= d and youth? They are simply a method of classification by which the results of your school teaching are tabulated. In other words, they form the practical application of the modern science method to the genus homo, qua intellection.=20 Now "science" teaches that intellect is a result of the mechanical interaction of the brain-stuff; therefore it is only logical tha= t modern education should be almost entirely mechanical -- a sort of automati= c machine for the fabrication of intellect by the ton. Very little experience of examinations is enough to show that the education they produce is simply a training of the physical memory, and, sooner or later, all your schools will sink to this level.=20 =09 THINKING As to any real, sound cultivation of the thinking and reasoning power, it is simply impossible while everything has to be judged by the results as tested by competitive examinations. Again, school training is of the very greatest importance in forming character, especiall= y in its moral bearing. Now, from first to last, your modern system is based on the so-called scientific revelations: "The struggle for existence" and the "survival of the fittest." All through his early life, every man has these driven into him by practical example and experience, as well as by direct teaching, till it is impossible to eradicate from his mind the idea that "self," the lower, personal, animal self, is the end-all, and be-all, of life. Here you get the great source of all the after--misery, crime, and heartless selfishness, which you admit as much as I do. Selfishness, as sai= d over and over again, is the curse of humanity, and the prolific parent of all the evils and crimes in this life; and it is your schools which are the hot-beds of such selfishness.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. That is all very fine as generalities, but I should like a few facts, and to learn also how this can be remedied.=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Very well, I will try and satisfy you. There are three great divisions of scholastic establishments, board, middle-class and public schools, running up the scale from the most grossly commercial to the idealistic classical, with many permutations and combinations. The practica= l commercial begets the modern side, and the ancient and orthodox classical reflects its heavy respectability even as far as the School Board pupil teacher's establishments. Here we plainly see the scientific and material commercial supplanting the effete orthodox and classical. Neither is the reason very far to seek. The objects of this branch of education are, then, pounds, shillings, and pence, the summum bonum of the XIXth century. Thus, the energies generated by the brain molecules of its adherents are all concentrated on one point, and are, therefore, to some extent, an organized army of educated and speculative intellects of the minority of men, trained against the hosts of the ignorant, simple-minded masses doomed to be vampirised, lived and sat upon by their intellectually stronger brethren. Such training is not only untheosophical, it is simply UNCHRISTIAN. Result: The direct outcome of this branch of education is an over flooding of the market with money-making machines, with heartless selfish men=AF animals = =AF who have been most carefully trained to prey on their fellows and take advantag= e of the ignorance of their weaker brethren!=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Well, but you cannot assert that of our great public schools, at any rate?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Not exactly, it is true. But though the form is different, the animating spirit is the same: untheosophical and unchristian, whether Eton and Harrow turn out scientists or divines and theologians.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Surely you don't mean to call Eton and Harrow "commercial"?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. No. Of course the Classical system is above all things respectable, and in the present day is productive of some good. It does still remain the favourite at our great public schools, where not only an intellectual, but also a social education is obtainable. It is, therefore, of prime importance that the dull boys of aristocratic and wealthy parents should go to such schools to meet the rest of the young life of the "blood" and money classes. But unfortunately there is a huge competition even for entrance; for the moneyed classes are increasing, and poor but clever boys seek to enter the public schools by the rich scholarships, both at the schools themselves and from them to the Universities.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. According to this view, the wealthier "dullards" have to work eve= n harder than their poorer fellows?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. It is so. But, strange to say, the faithful of the cult of the "Survival of the fittest" do not practice their creed; for their whole exertion is to make the naturally unfit supplant the fit. Thus, by bribes o= f large sums of money, they allure the best teachers from their natural pupil= s to mechanicalize their naturally unfit progeny into professions which they uselessly overcrowd.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. And you attribute all this to what?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. All this is owing to the perniciousness of a system which turn= s out goods to order, irrespective of the natural proclivities and talents of the youth. The poor little candidate for this progressive paradise of learning, comes almost straight from the nursery to the treadmill of a preparatory school for sons of gentlemen. Here he is immediately seized upo= n by the workmen of the materio-intellectual factory, and crammed with Latin, French and Greek Accidence, Dates and Tables, so that if he have any natura= l genius it is rapidly squeezed out of him by the rollers of what Carlyle has so well called "dead vocables."=20 =20 ENQUIRER. But surely he is taught something besides "dead vocables," and much of that which may lead him direct to Theosophy, if not entirely into the Theosophical Society?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Not much. For of history, he will attain only sufficient knowledge of his own particular nation to fit him with a steel armour of prejudice against all other peoples, and be steeped in the foul cesspools o= f chronicled national hate and blood-thirstiness; and surely, you would not call that=AF Theosophy?=20 =20 ENQUIRER. What are your further objections?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Added to this is a smattering of selected, so-called, Biblical facts, from the study of which all intellect is eliminated. It is simply a memory lesson, the "Why" of the teacher being a "Why" of circumstances and not of reason. =20 ENQUIRER. Yes; but I have heard you congratulate yourself at the ever-increasing number of the Agnostics and Atheists in our day, so that it appears that even people trained in the system you abuse so heartily do learn to think and reason for themselves.=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Yes; but it is rather owing to a healthy reaction from that system than due to it. We prefer immeasurably more in our Society Agnostics= , and even rank Atheists, to bigots of whatever religion. An Agnostic's mind is ever opened to the truth; whereas the latter blinds the bigot like the sun does an owl. The best -- i. e., the most truth-loving, philanthropic, and honest -- of our Fellows were, and are, Agnostics and Atheists (disbelievers in a personal God). But there are no free-thinking boys and girls, and generally early training will leave its mark behind in the shape of a cramped and distorted mind. A proper and sane system of education should produce the most vigorous and liberal mind, strictly trained in logical and accurate thought, and not in blind faith. How can you ever expect good results, while you pervert the reasoning faculty of your children by bidding them believe in the miracles of the Bible on Sunday, while for the six other days of the week you teach them that such things ar= e scientifically impossible?=20 =20 ENQUIRER. What would you have, then?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. If we had money, we would found schools which would turn out something else than reading and writing candidates for starvation. Children should above all be taught self-reliance, love for all men, altruism, mutua= l charity, and more than anything else, to think and reason for themselves. W= e would reduce the purely mechanical work of the memory to an absolute minimum, and devote the time to the development and training of the inner senses, faculties and latent capacities. We would endeavour to deal with each child as a unit, and to educate it so as to produce the most harmoniou= s and equal unfoldment of its powers, in order that its special aptitudes should find their full natural development. We should aim at creating free men and women, free intellectually, free morally, unprejudiced in all respects, and above all things, unselfish. And we believe that much if not all of this could be obtained by proper and truly theosophical education." Key to Theosophy p. 263 - 271.....=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 -----Original Message----- From: cassilva48 Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 5:43 PM To:=20 Subject: [bn-study] Re: 2005 A NEW CYCLE Dear Dallas, I have extracted this section on THE FUTURE, and was wondering, what you imagine HPB's message is.=20=20 Other than Philosophy and Mysticism in this century will defeat Materialism and Fanaticism,(which is wonderful) it seems a gloomy future for those who practice Materialism and Fanaticism? Or perhaps she is saying that the truth will show that all those attached to materialistic or fanatic pursuits will be shown to be false prophets and can either join the ark of humanity with the self realization that they were misguided, or else will be drowned (I presume she is talking here about psychological drowning) in the illusion of their own reality? And not another Flood devastating the world. Your thoughts would be appreciated.=20=20 Cass=20=20 ---------------------------------------------------- P S HPB wrote: "Let us prepare, and let us study Truth in all its aspects, trying not to ignore any of them, if we do not wish, when the hour will have struck, to fall into the abyss of the unknown. It is useless to rely on chance, and to await the approaching intellectual and psychic crisis with indifference if not with total incredulity, saying to oneself that if worse comes to worst, the tide will carry us quite naturally to the shore; for there is a strong likelihood of the tide stranding but a corpse! The battle will be fierce, in any case, between brutal materialism and blind fanaticism on the one hand, and on the other philosophy and mysticism--that more or less thick veil of the Eternal Truth.=20 It is not materialism that will have the upper hand. Everyone fanatically clinging to an idea isolating him from the universal axiom -- "There is no Religion higher than Truth" -- will find himself separated like a rotten plank from the new ark called Humanity. Tossed by the waves, chased by the winds, buffeted by this element so terrible because unknown, he will soon find himself swallowed up Yes, thus it must be, and it cannot be otherwise when the flame of modern materialism, artificial and cold, will be extinguished for lack of fuel. Those who cannot conceive of a spiritual Ego, of a living Soul, and of an eternal Spirit, within their material shell (which owes its illusory life only to these principles); those for whom the great wave of hope in a life beyond the grave is a bitter draught, the symbol of an unknown quantity, or else the subject of a belief sui generis, the result of mediumistic or theological hallucinations--those will do well to be prepared for the keenest of disappointments the future could have in store for them.=20 For, from the depths of the muddy black waters of matter, hiding from them on all sides the horizons of the great beyond, a mystic force is rising towards the closing years of this century. A mere touch, at the most, until now, but a superhuman touch, "supernatural" only for the superstitiou= s and the ignorant.=20 The Spirit of Truth is at this moment moving upon the face of these black waters, and, separating them, forces them to yield their spiritual treasures. This spirit is a force that cannot be either checked or stopped. Those who recognize it and feel that this is the supreme moment of their salvation, will be carried by it beyond the illusions of the great astral serpent.=20 The bliss they will experience will be so sharp and so keen that were they not in spirit detached from their bodies of flesh, this beatitude would wound them like a sharpened blade.=20 It is not pleasure that they will feel, but a bliss which is a foretaste Of the wisdom of the gods, of the knowledge of good and evil, and of the fruits of the Tree of Life. " -- HPB From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Fri Dec 24 11:12:29 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 10949 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 19:12:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2004 19:12:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.net4india.com) (202.71.129.125) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 19:12:21 -0000 Received: from [61.1.104.60] (helo=k1) by smtp.net4india.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1Chul0-0000bJ-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:35:47 +0530 Message-ID: <003801c4e9eb$91c268c0$3c68013d@k1> To: Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:11 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.71.129.125 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Government of the World X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: www_anandgholap_net Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [ www.AnandGholap.net - Online books on Theosophy ] " I want to put before you, if I can in these three lectures, a certain vie= w of the world, and of the way in which that world is guided and directed. = As this meeting is a public meeting, there is one state=ADment I think that= I ought to make, which it would not be necessary to make, if it were compo= sed of members of the Theosophical Society. It is important to remember tha= t in the Theosophical Society we have no authority on matters of opinion. E= very member is free to work out his own theory of life, to choose his own l= ine of thought, and no one has the smallest right to dictate to any member = what he should choose or what he should think. In the Theosophical Society = there is only one condition which binds a member, namely, the recognition o= f Universal Brotherhood. Outside that every member is absolutely free. He m= ay belong to any religion, or he may belong to no religion at all. If he be= longs to a religion, he is never asked to leave it, to change it, but only = to try to live up to its teachings of spiritual life, recognising the unity= of all, to live in harmony with people of his own faith and people of othe= r faiths. When we speak of Theosophy, we may take the word in one of two se= nses. The first, what it should be to the individual. In that sense there i= s no difference between Theosophy and the ancient Brahmavidya of India, the= Para Vidya, and the Gnosis of the Greek - no difference at all. It is the = recognition that man can realise God. It is called, in the Upanishad =93the= knowledge of Him by whom all things are known=94. It is a difficulty rathe= r of our language that we speak in that sense of =93knowledge=94, because k= nowledge implies a duality, or indeed a triplicity - the Knower, the Known,= and the Relation between them - whereas when the Spirit of man, who comes = forth from Ishvara, realises his own nature, it is no longer a case of thin= king or of knowing. It is a case of realising that identity. You know it is= written again in the Upanishad: =93He who says =91I know=92, he knows not,= =94 because the very word knowledge is an error in this realisation. In tha= t, we do not say, =93I know=94; we say, =93I am=94. This gives the primary = meaning of the word =93Theosophy=94. Then it is also used in a secondary se= nse: a certain body of teachings. No one of these particular teachings is b= inding on any member. The whole of these teachings together are the teachin= gs the Society is formed to put forward in the world, but it does not make = them binding on its members. That policy rests on a very sure foundation. T= he foundation is that no man can really believe a truth, until he has grown= to the extent which enables him to see it as truth for himself. A teaching= is not really a part of your spiritual life; it comes within the mental li= fe, into that part of your nature which is said to be knowledge, the intell= ect; and that is able to see that which is akin to itself. The truth in you= recognises the truth outside you, when once the inner vision is open. Henc= e, in the Society, the study of the great fundamental truths of all religio= ns is one of its objects. Members are not asked whether they believe in the= m or not. They are left to study them, in the full conviction that just as = when the eyes are open the man who is not blind sees by the light of the su= n, he is not asked to believe in the light, so is truth in the mental world= . As soon as the eyes of the inner nature, the eyes of the intellect, are o= pen, it is not a question of argument, but a question of sight. You recogni= se the truth because the faculty of truth in your own nature shows that it = exists. You see by it, as you see by the light of the sun. As long as a man= is blind, the sun to him as light is nothing. When the eyes are opened the= n no argument is necessary as to the existence of the light by which he see= s. Truth is regarded in that way, and hence the student is left to study un= til for himself he knows the truth of any doc=ADtrine. The teachings which = are spread by the Society are those which you find in every great religion.= If, for instance, you take a book published by the Central Hindu College a= s a text-book for Hindu boys, and an Advanced Text-book for Hindu young men= in the College, you will find in them certain truths. They are given in th= e Hindi form. If you take the Theosophical text-book, used for teaching in = schools where all religions are taught, where there are boys whose parents = hold particular religions, you have those truths given which are common to = all religions. The only difference is that in the Theosophical text-book, t= he various Scriptures of the world in different religions are quoted in sup= port of them, while in the Hindu text-book only the Hindu Scriptures are qu= oted. That is the only difference so far as the great ideas are con=ADcerne= d; the ideas are identical. 2. You wil= l understand that in all that I say now, I am dealing with things as they a= ppear to me. They are not binding upon any particular member, for the duty = of each is to think for himself. They do not commit the Society as a Societ= y, because that only puts forward acceptance of Universal Brotherhood as a = condition of admission. That which I say, I am responsible for. What I say = is the result of my own study. It is for every one of you, Theosophists or = non-Theosophists, member or non-member, to use your own intellect, your own= judgment, your own conscience, in weighing every statement that I make. Yo= u ought not to take them ready-made as truth for you. Everyone must use his= own thought, and not simply go by that of another. Especially is that so, = because I am going to deal with abstruse subjects. Speaking of them as trut= hs, I am speaking largely on my own knowledge and also, in addition to that= , taking certain statements congruous with what I know, but applied to a mu= ch larger area of facts then I myself am yet able to reach. For I am going = to say a few things about the larger Kosmos of the solar systems, which I a= m not able to examine for myself. I am only dealing with the subject before= you as a whole, and will deal with that part briefly. But it is necessary,= in order to give you as it were a fairly complete view, because there are = many other solar systems about which I know nothing. Most of us speak about= many facts of science which we have not been able to verify; for instance,= I am unable in astronomy to verify the statements of great astronomers as = regards the situation and the relations of our vast solar system. I have no= t studied astronomy. If I had studied, I could not have attained to the kno= wl=ADedge of great experts in that particular science. But if I find them t= eaching on the solar system the facts that they have observed and collected= by telescope and by the many other ways, like the spectroscope, that they = have of examining the composition of planets other than our own, I should t= ake this from them, if their new facts were, generally speaking, congruous = with what we know as regards our own constitution, its relationship to cert= ain other bodies mathematically worked out, and so on. We are exactly in a = similar position in dealing with what are called occult state=ADments; name= ly, statements of facts as regards a partic=ADular order of existence, with= some of which we can come into contact in our own world, the existence of = which to some extent we can find out from the history of our own world; the= re are others as to which we find ourselves unable to make discoveries, to= gain first-hand knowledge; as to them, a large number of statements have b= een made about them by far more highly developed persons than ourselves. I= t is as true of occult science as it is true of astronomy, that a large par= t of it is taken on trust from experts. Certain parts of it may be found ou= t by ourselves, by our own study; other parts cannot. The conditions are si= milar to those in astronomy, or in any other science. We must give to the s= tudy a large amount of time. We must study along certain lines which have b= een verified over and over again. We must go on to first-hand knowledge, wh= ich is the best but the most laborious way of acquiring knowledge. This, ho= wever, demands, to begin with, a certain amount of faculty for the particul= ar science. You may find, for instance, a man who could never become a grea= t astronomer - no matter how long he studied; a man who is deficient in mat= hematical power could never become a really great astronomer, because the h= igher mathematics are wanted in much of the astro=ADnomical study. If a man= is by nature very stupid in that science, he could never become a great as= tro=ADnomer. So it is also with occult study. There are a number of persons= who have not got the faculty to begin with. It depends upon their past, up= on the line of evolution along which they have come. Pro=ADgress depends up= on whether they have the faculty, how much time they are ready to give to t= he study, how far they are conforming to the rules laid down by experts for= beginners in the study, and so on. But admitting that there is a great dif= ference between the reception given to occult science and the reception giv= en to astronomical statements made by experts, everybody, practically every= educated person, is willing to receive the testimony of the greatest astro= nomers to facts which they are themselves unable to observe or to verify. I= t is not a matter of life and death if they are wrong. But when you come to= deal with statements of occult science, some of which you find in the grea= t Scriptures of the world, some of which you find in the ancient histories = of the world, there is much unfair scepticism in modern thinkers. Histories= are thrown aside as legendary and mythical. Scriptures are thrown aside as= superstition, though they contain the ideas of ancient peoples, much more = learned than ourselves. Hence the difficulty of Occultism in justi=ADfying = itself; a man must take it just on the lines I have put to you as to astron= omical science. But the man of the day is ready to receive science which ar= e based on apparatus. Where people make very elaborate apparatus, such as t= elescopes, spectroscopes, all kinds of things of extraordinary fineness and= delicacy, they appeal to the mind of the day, especially in the West; they= for the moment are most advanced, it is said, in ordinary sciences. That i= s the way the mind works. It looks out to the objects and builds up its the= ories by observation, comparison, classification, and so on. Anything that = goes along that line easily justifies itself to the ordinary modern mind. T= hey do not challenge. Occultism works in a different way. It works by the d= evelopment of new organs which are within the man, instead of by the manufa= cture of apparatus which is outside the man. Now the development of the inn= er senses, the inner powers of observation, can only be done under certain = rules, rules which affect the body and the conduct of the man. It is much e= asier to buy a telescope and look at the moon through it, than it is to dev= elop your own nature along lines to which evolution has not as yet accustom= ed us. There lies the difficulty of occult study. A person will be willing = to submit to a discipline, will not resent it, if it is carried on in the l= aboratory of science, but he does resent it if it comes to him with the aut= hority of the great Knowers of the past. It is along the line of facts thus= obtained that I am going to speak to you. Therefore you must take them fro= m that standpoint, and understand that I am not asking you to believe a thi= ng because I say it. I am only putting before you a theory of the Governmen= t of the World which has many facts to recommend it in his=ADtory and in re= ligion, but which may be challenged by those who do not accept ancient hist= ory, who do not accept the great Scriptures of the world of religion=AD - a= nd some which I am going to add from my own study, I will begin with that w= hich I am unable definitely to verify. I can only put to you certain reason= s for accepting it. Now broadly stated they are these. We have a solar syst= em consisting of certain planetary bodies revolving round the central sun. = These bodies are studied, and said by ordinary science to be moving under c= ertain definite forces, under certain definite laws of nature, as we call t= hem, which by observation have been established and re-verified over and ov= er again. According to that scientific view, our solar system is to a certa= in extent a self-contained body. The central sun in a sense controls the mo= vements of the planetary bodies which circle round it. And outside the sola= r system you have space, practically empty space. But science tells us ther= e are a great many solar systems. We are only one out of a group. It tells = us that the solar systems are in groups; and that we belong to a group - th= e whole group circling round another sun far, far, far off in the depths of= space; so that we are not wholly self-contained. We are under other influe= nces and are moving in obedience, as a whole group system, to other laws. W= e do not trouble much about that because we have little opportunity of obse= rvation. Any part of the argument of science there is practically an induct= ion from certain ascertained facts. You make a theory that if there were a = body exercising certain powers of attraction and repulsion, if your partic= =ADular part moves in a way which is not accounted for by anything you can = discover, then there must be something as yet unknown to you causing these = other move=ADments which you cannot trace to any force existing within our = own solar system. I know very little about that, and do not want to say any= thing more about it." Complete book can be read at http://www.anandgholap.net/Inner_Government_Of_The_World-AB.htm =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Fri Dec 24 11:35:46 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7406 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 18:46:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2004 18:46:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.net4india.com) (202.71.129.125) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 18:46:15 -0000 Received: from [61.1.104.60] (helo=k1) by smtp.net4india.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1ChuBd-0007R3-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:59:13 +0530 Message-ID: <002801c4e9e6$765be3e0$3c68013d@k1> To: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:56:53 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.71.129.125 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Government of the World X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: www_anandgholap_net Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [ www.AnandGholap.net - Online books on Theosophy ] " I want to put before you, if I can in these three lectures, a certain vie= w of the world, and of the way in which that world is guided and directed. = As this meeting is a public meeting, there is one state=ADment I think that= I ought to make, which it would not be necessary to make, if it were compo= sed of members of the Theosophical Society. It is important to remember tha= t in the Theosophical Society we have no authority on matters of opinion. E= very member is free to work out his own theory of life, to choose his own l= ine of thought, and no one has the smallest right to dictate to any member = what he should choose or what he should think. In the Theosophical Society = there is only one condition which binds a member, namely, the recognition o= f Universal Brotherhood. Outside that every member is absolutely free. He m= ay belong to any religion, or he may belong to no religion at all. If he be= longs to a religion, he is never asked to leave it, to change it, but only = to try to live up to its teachings of spiritual life, recognising the unity= of all, to live in harmony with people of his own faith and people of othe= r faiths. When we speak of Theosophy, we may take the word in one of two se= nses. The first, what it should be to the individual. In that sense there i= s no difference between Theosophy and the ancient Brahmavidya of India, the= Para Vidya, and the Gnosis of the Greek - no difference at all. It is the = recognition that man can realise God. It is called, in the Upanishad =93the= knowledge of Him by whom all things are known=94. It is a difficulty rathe= r of our language that we speak in that sense of =93knowledge=94, because k= nowledge implies a duality, or indeed a triplicity - the Knower, the Known,= and the Relation between them - whereas when the Spirit of man, who comes = forth from Ishvara, realises his own nature, it is no longer a case of thin= king or of knowing. It is a case of realising that identity. You know it is= written again in the Upanishad: =93He who says =91I know=92, he knows not,= =94 because the very word knowledge is an error in this realisation. In tha= t, we do not say, =93I know=94; we say, =93I am=94. This gives the primary = meaning of the word =93Theosophy=94. Then it is also used in a secondary se= nse: a certain body of teachings. No one of these particular teachings is b= inding on any member. The whole of these teachings together are the teachin= gs the Society is formed to put forward in the world, but it does not make = them binding on its members. That policy rests on a very sure foundation. T= he foundation is that no man can really believe a truth, until he has grown= to the extent which enables him to see it as truth for himself. A teaching= is not really a part of your spiritual life; it comes within the mental li= fe, into that part of your nature which is said to be knowledge, the intell= ect; and that is able to see that which is akin to itself. The truth in you= recognises the truth outside you, when once the inner vision is open. Henc= e, in the Society, the study of the great fundamental truths of all religio= ns is one of its objects. Members are not asked whether they believe in the= m or not. They are left to study them, in the full conviction that just as = when the eyes are open the man who is not blind sees by the light of the su= n, he is not asked to believe in the light, so is truth in the mental world= . As soon as the eyes of the inner nature, the eyes of the intellect, are o= pen, it is not a question of argument, but a question of sight. You recogni= se the truth because the faculty of truth in your own nature shows that it = exists. You see by it, as you see by the light of the sun. As long as a man= is blind, the sun to him as light is nothing. When the eyes are opened the= n no argument is necessary as to the existence of the light by which he see= s. Truth is regarded in that way, and hence the student is left to study un= til for himself he knows the truth of any doc=ADtrine. The teachings which = are spread by the Society are those which you find in every great religion.= If, for instance, you take a book published by the Central Hindu College a= s a text-book for Hindu boys, and an Advanced Text-book for Hindu young men= in the College, you will find in them certain truths. They are given in th= e Hindi form. If you take the Theosophical text-book, used for teaching in = schools where all religions are taught, where there are boys whose parents = hold particular religions, you have those truths given which are common to = all religions. The only difference is that in the Theosophical text-book, t= he various Scriptures of the world in different religions are quoted in sup= port of them, while in the Hindu text-book only the Hindu Scriptures are qu= oted. That is the only difference so far as the great ideas are con=ADcerne= d; the ideas are identical. 2. You wil= l understand that in all that I say now, I am dealing with things as they a= ppear to me. They are not binding upon any particular member, for the duty = of each is to think for himself. They do not commit the Society as a Societ= y, because that only puts forward acceptance of Universal Brotherhood as a = condition of admission. That which I say, I am responsible for. What I say = is the result of my own study. It is for every one of you, Theosophists or = non-Theosophists, member or non-member, to use your own intellect, your own= judgment, your own conscience, in weighing every statement that I make. Yo= u ought not to take them ready-made as truth for you. Everyone must use his= own thought, and not simply go by that of another. Especially is that so, = because I am going to deal with abstruse subjects. Speaking of them as trut= hs, I am speaking largely on my own knowledge and also, in addition to that= , taking certain statements congruous with what I know, but applied to a mu= ch larger area of facts then I myself am yet able to reach. For I am going = to say a few things about the larger Kosmos of the solar systems, which I a= m not able to examine for myself. I am only dealing with the subject before= you as a whole, and will deal with that part briefly. But it is necessary,= in order to give you as it were a fairly complete view, because there are = many other solar systems about which I know nothing. Most of us speak about= many facts of science which we have not been able to verify; for instance,= I am unable in astronomy to verify the statements of great astronomers as = regards the situation and the relations of our vast solar system. I have no= t studied astronomy. If I had studied, I could not have attained to the kno= wl=ADedge of great experts in that particular science. But if I find them t= eaching on the solar system the facts that they have observed and collected= by telescope and by the many other ways, like the spectroscope, that they = have of examining the composition of planets other than our own, I should t= ake this from them, if their new facts were, generally speaking, congruous = with what we know as regards our own constitution, its relationship to cert= ain other bodies mathematically worked out, and so on. We are exactly in a = similar position in dealing with what are called occult state=ADments; name= ly, statements of facts as regards a partic=ADular order of existence, with= some of which we can come into contact in our own world, the existence of = which to some extent we can find out from the history of our own world; the= re are others as to which we find ourselves unable to make discoveries, to= gain first-hand knowledge; as to them, a large number of statements have b= een made about them by far more highly developed persons than ourselves. I= t is as true of occult science as it is true of astronomy, that a large par= t of it is taken on trust from experts. Certain parts of it may be found ou= t by ourselves, by our own study; other parts cannot. The conditions are si= milar to those in astronomy, or in any other science. We must give to the s= tudy a large amount of time. We must study along certain lines which have b= een verified over and over again. We must go on to first-hand knowledge, wh= ich is the best but the most laborious way of acquiring knowledge. This, ho= wever, demands, to begin with, a certain amount of faculty for the particul= ar science. You may find, for instance, a man who could never become a grea= t astronomer - no matter how long he studied; a man who is deficient in mat= hematical power could never become a really great astronomer, because the h= igher mathematics are wanted in much of the astro=ADnomical study. If a man= is by nature very stupid in that science, he could never become a great as= tro=ADnomer. So it is also with occult study. There are a number of persons= who have not got the faculty to begin with. It depends upon their past, up= on the line of evolution along which they have come. Pro=ADgress depends up= on whether they have the faculty, how much time they are ready to give to t= he study, how far they are conforming to the rules laid down by experts for= beginners in the study, and so on. But admitting that there is a great dif= ference between the reception given to occult science and the reception giv= en to astronomical statements made by experts, everybody, practically every= educated person, is willing to receive the testimony of the greatest astro= nomers to facts which they are themselves unable to observe or to verify. I= t is not a matter of life and death if they are wrong. But when you come to= deal with statements of occult science, some of which you find in the grea= t Scriptures of the world, some of which you find in the ancient histories = of the world, there is much unfair scepticism in modern thinkers. Histories= are thrown aside as legendary and mythical. Scriptures are thrown aside as= superstition, though they contain the ideas of ancient peoples, much more = learned than ourselves. Hence the difficulty of Occultism in justi=ADfying = itself; a man must take it just on the lines I have put to you as to astron= omical science. But the man of the day is ready to receive science which ar= e based on apparatus. Where people make very elaborate apparatus, such as t= elescopes, spectroscopes, all kinds of things of extraordinary fineness and= delicacy, they appeal to the mind of the day, especially in the West; they= for the moment are most advanced, it is said, in ordinary sciences. That i= s the way the mind works. It looks out to the objects and builds up its the= ories by observation, comparison, classification, and so on. Anything that = goes along that line easily justifies itself to the ordinary modern mind. T= hey do not challenge. Occultism works in a different way. It works by the d= evelopment of new organs which are within the man, instead of by the manufa= cture of apparatus which is outside the man. Now the development of the inn= er senses, the inner powers of observation, can only be done under certain = rules, rules which affect the body and the conduct of the man. It is much e= asier to buy a telescope and look at the moon through it, than it is to dev= elop your own nature along lines to which evolution has not as yet accustom= ed us. There lies the difficulty of occult study. A person will be willing = to submit to a discipline, will not resent it, if it is carried on in the l= aboratory of science, but he does resent it if it comes to him with the aut= hority of the great Knowers of the past. It is along the line of facts thus= obtained that I am going to speak to you. Therefore you must take them fro= m that standpoint, and understand that I am not asking you to believe a thi= ng because I say it. I am only putting before you a theory of the Governmen= t of the World which has many facts to recommend it in his=ADtory and in re= ligion, but which may be challenged by those who do not accept ancient hist= ory, who do not accept the great Scriptures of the world of religion=AD - a= nd some which I am going to add from my own study, I will begin with that w= hich I am unable definitely to verify. I can only put to you certain reason= s for accepting it. Now broadly stated they are these. We have a solar syst= em consisting of certain planetary bodies revolving round the central sun. = These bodies are studied, and said by ordinary science to be moving under c= ertain definite forces, under certain definite laws of nature, as we call t= hem, which by observation have been established and re-verified over and ov= er again. According to that scientific view, our solar system is to a certa= in extent a self-contained body. The central sun in a sense controls the mo= vements of the planetary bodies which circle round it. And outside the sola= r system you have space, practically empty space. But science tells us ther= e are a great many solar systems. We are only one out of a group. It tells = us that the solar systems are in groups; and that we belong to a group - th= e whole group circling round another sun far, far, far off in the depths of= space; so that we are not wholly self-contained. We are under other influe= nces and are moving in obedience, as a whole group system, to other laws. W= e do not trouble much about that because we have little opportunity of obse= rvation. Any part of the argument of science there is practically an induct= ion from certain ascertained facts. You make a theory that if there were a = body exercising certain powers of attraction and repulsion, if your partic= =ADular part moves in a way which is not accounted for by anything you can = discover, then there must be something as yet unknown to you causing these = other move=ADments which you cannot trace to any force existing within our = own solar system. I know very little about that, and do not want to say any= thing more about it." Complete book can be read at http://www.anandgholap.net/Inner_Government_Of_The_World-AB.htm =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Fri Dec 24 11:39:04 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12617 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 18:50:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2004 18:50:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.net4india.com) (202.71.129.125) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 18:50:19 -0000 Received: from [61.1.104.60] (helo=k1) by smtp.net4india.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1ChuEE-0007Vb-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:01:57 +0530 Message-ID: <003001c4e9e6$d683ac80$3c68013d@k1> To: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:56:53 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.71.129.125 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Government of the World X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: www_anandgholap_net Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [ www.AnandGholap.net - Online books on Theosophy ] " I want to put before you, if I can in these three lectures, a certain vie= w of the world, and of the way in which that world is guided and directed. = As this meeting is a public meeting, there is one state=ADment I think that= I ought to make, which it would not be necessary to make, if it were compo= sed of members of the Theosophical Society. It is important to remember tha= t in the Theosophical Society we have no authority on matters of opinion. E= very member is free to work out his own theory of life, to choose his own l= ine of thought, and no one has the smallest right to dictate to any member = what he should choose or what he should think. In the Theosophical Society = there is only one condition which binds a member, namely, the recognition o= f Universal Brotherhood. Outside that every member is absolutely free. He m= ay belong to any religion, or he may belong to no religion at all. If he be= longs to a religion, he is never asked to leave it, to change it, but only = to try to live up to its teachings of spiritual life, recognising the unity= of all, to live in harmony with people of his own faith and people of othe= r faiths. When we speak of Theosophy, we may take the word in one of two se= nses. The first, what it should be to the individual. In that sense there i= s no difference between Theosophy and the ancient Brahmavidya of India, the= Para Vidya, and the Gnosis of the Greek - no difference at all. It is the = recognition that man can realise God. It is called, in the Upanishad =93the= knowledge of Him by whom all things are known=94. It is a difficulty rathe= r of our language that we speak in that sense of =93knowledge=94, because k= nowledge implies a duality, or indeed a triplicity - the Knower, the Known,= and the Relation between them - whereas when the Spirit of man, who comes = forth from Ishvara, realises his own nature, it is no longer a case of thin= king or of knowing. It is a case of realising that identity. You know it is= written again in the Upanishad: =93He who says =91I know=92, he knows not,= =94 because the very word knowledge is an error in this realisation. In tha= t, we do not say, =93I know=94; we say, =93I am=94. This gives the primary = meaning of the word =93Theosophy=94. Then it is also used in a secondary se= nse: a certain body of teachings. No one of these particular teachings is b= inding on any member. The whole of these teachings together are the teachin= gs the Society is formed to put forward in the world, but it does not make = them binding on its members. That policy rests on a very sure foundation. T= he foundation is that no man can really believe a truth, until he has grown= to the extent which enables him to see it as truth for himself. A teaching= is not really a part of your spiritual life; it comes within the mental li= fe, into that part of your nature which is said to be knowledge, the intell= ect; and that is able to see that which is akin to itself. The truth in you= recognises the truth outside you, when once the inner vision is open. Henc= e, in the Society, the study of the great fundamental truths of all religio= ns is one of its objects. Members are not asked whether they believe in the= m or not. They are left to study them, in the full conviction that just as = when the eyes are open the man who is not blind sees by the light of the su= n, he is not asked to believe in the light, so is truth in the mental world= . As soon as the eyes of the inner nature, the eyes of the intellect, are o= pen, it is not a question of argument, but a question of sight. You recogni= se the truth because the faculty of truth in your own nature shows that it = exists. You see by it, as you see by the light of the sun. As long as a man= is blind, the sun to him as light is nothing. When the eyes are opened the= n no argument is necessary as to the existence of the light by which he see= s. Truth is regarded in that way, and hence the student is left to study un= til for himself he knows the truth of any doc=ADtrine. The teachings which = are spread by the Society are those which you find in every great religion.= If, for instance, you take a book published by the Central Hindu College a= s a text-book for Hindu boys, and an Advanced Text-book for Hindu young men= in the College, you will find in them certain truths. They are given in th= e Hindi form. If you take the Theosophical text-book, used for teaching in = schools where all religions are taught, where there are boys whose parents = hold particular religions, you have those truths given which are common to = all religions. The only difference is that in the Theosophical text-book, t= he various Scriptures of the world in different religions are quoted in sup= port of them, while in the Hindu text-book only the Hindu Scriptures are qu= oted. That is the only difference so far as the great ideas are con=ADcerne= d; the ideas are identical. 2. You wil= l understand that in all that I say now, I am dealing with things as they a= ppear to me. They are not binding upon any particular member, for the duty = of each is to think for himself. They do not commit the Society as a Societ= y, because that only puts forward acceptance of Universal Brotherhood as a = condition of admission. That which I say, I am responsible for. What I say = is the result of my own study. It is for every one of you, Theosophists or = non-Theosophists, member or non-member, to use your own intellect, your own= judgment, your own conscience, in weighing every statement that I make. Yo= u ought not to take them ready-made as truth for you. Everyone must use his= own thought, and not simply go by that of another. Especially is that so, = because I am going to deal with abstruse subjects. Speaking of them as trut= hs, I am speaking largely on my own knowledge and also, in addition to that= , taking certain statements congruous with what I know, but applied to a mu= ch larger area of facts then I myself am yet able to reach. For I am going = to say a few things about the larger Kosmos of the solar systems, which I a= m not able to examine for myself. I am only dealing with the subject before= you as a whole, and will deal with that part briefly. But it is necessary,= in order to give you as it were a fairly complete view, because there are = many other solar systems about which I know nothing. Most of us speak about= many facts of science which we have not been able to verify; for instance,= I am unable in astronomy to verify the statements of great astronomers as = regards the situation and the relations of our vast solar system. I have no= t studied astronomy. If I had studied, I could not have attained to the kno= wl=ADedge of great experts in that particular science. But if I find them t= eaching on the solar system the facts that they have observed and collected= by telescope and by the many other ways, like the spectroscope, that they = have of examining the composition of planets other than our own, I should t= ake this from them, if their new facts were, generally speaking, congruous = with what we know as regards our own constitution, its relationship to cert= ain other bodies mathematically worked out, and so on. We are exactly in a = similar position in dealing with what are called occult state=ADments; name= ly, statements of facts as regards a partic=ADular order of existence, with= some of which we can come into contact in our own world, the existence of = which to some extent we can find out from the history of our own world; the= re are others as to which we find ourselves unable to make discoveries, to= gain first-hand knowledge; as to them, a large number of statements have b= een made about them by far more highly developed persons than ourselves. I= t is as true of occult science as it is true of astronomy, that a large par= t of it is taken on trust from experts. Certain parts of it may be found ou= t by ourselves, by our own study; other parts cannot. The conditions are si= milar to those in astronomy, or in any other science. We must give to the s= tudy a large amount of time. We must study along certain lines which have b= een verified over and over again. We must go on to first-hand knowledge, wh= ich is the best but the most laborious way of acquiring knowledge. This, ho= wever, demands, to begin with, a certain amount of faculty for the particul= ar science. You may find, for instance, a man who could never become a grea= t astronomer - no matter how long he studied; a man who is deficient in mat= hematical power could never become a really great astronomer, because the h= igher mathematics are wanted in much of the astro=ADnomical study. If a man= is by nature very stupid in that science, he could never become a great as= tro=ADnomer. So it is also with occult study. There are a number of persons= who have not got the faculty to begin with. It depends upon their past, up= on the line of evolution along which they have come. Pro=ADgress depends up= on whether they have the faculty, how much time they are ready to give to t= he study, how far they are conforming to the rules laid down by experts for= beginners in the study, and so on. But admitting that there is a great dif= ference between the reception given to occult science and the reception giv= en to astronomical statements made by experts, everybody, practically every= educated person, is willing to receive the testimony of the greatest astro= nomers to facts which they are themselves unable to observe or to verify. I= t is not a matter of life and death if they are wrong. But when you come to= deal with statements of occult science, some of which you find in the grea= t Scriptures of the world, some of which you find in the ancient histories = of the world, there is much unfair scepticism in modern thinkers. Histories= are thrown aside as legendary and mythical. Scriptures are thrown aside as= superstition, though they contain the ideas of ancient peoples, much more = learned than ourselves. Hence the difficulty of Occultism in justi=ADfying = itself; a man must take it just on the lines I have put to you as to astron= omical science. But the man of the day is ready to receive science which ar= e based on apparatus. Where people make very elaborate apparatus, such as t= elescopes, spectroscopes, all kinds of things of extraordinary fineness and= delicacy, they appeal to the mind of the day, especially in the West; they= for the moment are most advanced, it is said, in ordinary sciences. That i= s the way the mind works. It looks out to the objects and builds up its the= ories by observation, comparison, classification, and so on. Anything that = goes along that line easily justifies itself to the ordinary modern mind. T= hey do not challenge. Occultism works in a different way. It works by the d= evelopment of new organs which are within the man, instead of by the manufa= cture of apparatus which is outside the man. Now the development of the inn= er senses, the inner powers of observation, can only be done under certain = rules, rules which affect the body and the conduct of the man. It is much e= asier to buy a telescope and look at the moon through it, than it is to dev= elop your own nature along lines to which evolution has not as yet accustom= ed us. There lies the difficulty of occult study. A person will be willing = to submit to a discipline, will not resent it, if it is carried on in the l= aboratory of science, but he does resent it if it comes to him with the aut= hority of the great Knowers of the past. It is along the line of facts thus= obtained that I am going to speak to you. Therefore you must take them fro= m that standpoint, and understand that I am not asking you to believe a thi= ng because I say it. I am only putting before you a theory of the Governmen= t of the World which has many facts to recommend it in his=ADtory and in re= ligion, but which may be challenged by those who do not accept ancient hist= ory, who do not accept the great Scriptures of the world of religion=AD - a= nd some which I am going to add from my own study, I will begin with that w= hich I am unable definitely to verify. I can only put to you certain reason= s for accepting it. Now broadly stated they are these. We have a solar syst= em consisting of certain planetary bodies revolving round the central sun. = These bodies are studied, and said by ordinary science to be moving under c= ertain definite forces, under certain definite laws of nature, as we call t= hem, which by observation have been established and re-verified over and ov= er again. According to that scientific view, our solar system is to a certa= in extent a self-contained body. The central sun in a sense controls the mo= vements of the planetary bodies which circle round it. And outside the sola= r system you have space, practically empty space. But science tells us ther= e are a great many solar systems. We are only one out of a group. It tells = us that the solar systems are in groups; and that we belong to a group - th= e whole group circling round another sun far, far, far off in the depths of= space; so that we are not wholly self-contained. We are under other influe= nces and are moving in obedience, as a whole group system, to other laws. W= e do not trouble much about that because we have little opportunity of obse= rvation. Any part of the argument of science there is practically an induct= ion from certain ascertained facts. You make a theory that if there were a = body exercising certain powers of attraction and repulsion, if your partic= =ADular part moves in a way which is not accounted for by anything you can = discover, then there must be something as yet unknown to you causing these = other move=ADments which you cannot trace to any force existing within our = own solar system. I know very little about that, and do not want to say any= thing more about it." Complete book can be read at http://www.anandgholap.net/Inner_Government_Of_The_World-AB.htm =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Fri Dec 24 12:02:34 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 81392 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 20:02:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2004 20:02:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.net4india.com) (202.71.129.125) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 20:02:21 -0000 Received: from [61.1.104.60] (helo=k1) by smtp.net4india.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1ChvY5-0005bH-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 01:26:29 +0530 Message-ID: <003c01c4e9f2$a70c5fe0$3c68013d@k1> To: Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:11 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.71.129.125 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Government of the World X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: www_anandgholap_net Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [ www.AnandGholap.net - Online books on Theosophy ] " I want to put before you, if I can in these three lectures, a certain vie= w of the world, and of the way in which that world is guided and directed. = As this meeting is a public meeting, there is one state=ADment I think that= I ought to make, which it would not be necessary to make, if it were compo= sed of members of the Theosophical Society. It is important to remember tha= t in the Theosophical Society we have no authority on matters of opinion. E= very member is free to work out his own theory of life, to choose his own l= ine of thought, and no one has the smallest right to dictate to any member = what he should choose or what he should think. In the Theosophical Society = there is only one condition which binds a member, namely, the recognition o= f Universal Brotherhood. Outside that every member is absolutely free. He m= ay belong to any religion, or he may belong to no religion at all. If he be= longs to a religion, he is never asked to leave it, to change it, but only = to try to live up to its teachings of spiritual life, recognising the unity= of all, to live in harmony with people of his own faith and people of othe= r faiths. When we speak of Theosophy, we may take the word in one of two se= nses. The first, what it should be to the individual. In that sense there i= s no difference between Theosophy and the ancient Brahmavidya of India, the= Para Vidya, and the Gnosis of the Greek - no difference at all. It is the = recognition that man can realise God. It is called, in the Upanishad =93the= knowledge of Him by whom all things are known=94. It is a difficulty rathe= r of our language that we speak in that sense of =93knowledge=94, because k= nowledge implies a duality, or indeed a triplicity - the Knower, the Known,= and the Relation between them - whereas when the Spirit of man, who comes = forth from Ishvara, realises his own nature, it is no longer a case of thin= king or of knowing. It is a case of realising that identity. You know it is= written again in the Upanishad: =93He who says =91I know=92, he knows not,= =94 because the very word knowledge is an error in this realisation. In tha= t, we do not say, =93I know=94; we say, =93I am=94. This gives the primary = meaning of the word =93Theosophy=94. Then it is also used in a secondary se= nse: a certain body of teachings. No one of these particular teachings is b= inding on any member. The whole of these teachings together are the teachin= gs the Society is formed to put forward in the world, but it does not make = them binding on its members. That policy rests on a very sure foundation. T= he foundation is that no man can really believe a truth, until he has grown= to the extent which enables him to see it as truth for himself. A teaching= is not really a part of your spiritual life; it comes within the mental li= fe, into that part of your nature which is said to be knowledge, the intell= ect; and that is able to see that which is akin to itself. The truth in you= recognises the truth outside you, when once the inner vision is open. Henc= e, in the Society, the study of the great fundamental truths of all religio= ns is one of its objects. Members are not asked whether they believe in the= m or not. They are left to study them, in the full conviction that just as = when the eyes are open the man who is not blind sees by the light of the su= n, he is not asked to believe in the light, so is truth in the mental world= . As soon as the eyes of the inner nature, the eyes of the intellect, are o= pen, it is not a question of argument, but a question of sight. You recogni= se the truth because the faculty of truth in your own nature shows that it = exists. You see by it, as you see by the light of the sun. As long as a man= is blind, the sun to him as light is nothing. When the eyes are opened the= n no argument is necessary as to the existence of the light by which he see= s. Truth is regarded in that way, and hence the student is left to study un= til for himself he knows the truth of any doc=ADtrine. The teachings which = are spread by the Society are those which you find in every great religion.= If, for instance, you take a book published by the Central Hindu College a= s a text-book for Hindu boys, and an Advanced Text-book for Hindu young men= in the College, you will find in them certain truths. They are given in th= e Hindi form. If you take the Theosophical text-book, used for teaching in = schools where all religions are taught, where there are boys whose parents = hold particular religions, you have those truths given which are common to = all religions. The only difference is that in the Theosophical text-book, t= he various Scriptures of the world in different religions are quoted in sup= port of them, while in the Hindu text-book only the Hindu Scriptures are qu= oted. That is the only difference so far as the great ideas are con=ADcerne= d; the ideas are identical. 2. You wil= l understand that in all that I say now, I am dealing with things as they a= ppear to me. They are not binding upon any particular member, for the duty = of each is to think for himself. They do not commit the Society as a Societ= y, because that only puts forward acceptance of Universal Brotherhood as a = condition of admission. That which I say, I am responsible for. What I say = is the result of my own study. It is for every one of you, Theosophists or = non-Theosophists, member or non-member, to use your own intellect, your own= judgment, your own conscience, in weighing every statement that I make. Yo= u ought not to take them ready-made as truth for you. Everyone must use his= own thought, and not simply go by that of another. Especially is that so, = because I am going to deal with abstruse subjects. Speaking of them as trut= hs, I am speaking largely on my own knowledge and also, in addition to that= , taking certain statements congruous with what I know, but applied to a mu= ch larger area of facts then I myself am yet able to reach. For I am going = to say a few things about the larger Kosmos of the solar systems, which I a= m not able to examine for myself. I am only dealing with the subject before= you as a whole, and will deal with that part briefly. But it is necessary,= in order to give you as it were a fairly complete view, because there are = many other solar systems about which I know nothing. Most of us speak about= many facts of science which we have not been able to verify; for instance,= I am unable in astronomy to verify the statements of great astronomers as = regards the situation and the relations of our vast solar system. I have no= t studied astronomy. If I had studied, I could not have attained to the kno= wl=ADedge of great experts in that particular science. But if I find them t= eaching on the solar system the facts that they have observed and collected= by telescope and by the many other ways, like the spectroscope, that they = have of examining the composition of planets other than our own, I should t= ake this from them, if their new facts were, generally speaking, congruous = with what we know as regards our own constitution, its relationship to cert= ain other bodies mathematically worked out, and so on. We are exactly in a = similar position in dealing with what are called occult state=ADments; name= ly, statements of facts as regards a partic=ADular order of existence, with= some of which we can come into contact in our own world, the existence of = which to some extent we can find out from the history of our own world; the= re are others as to which we find ourselves unable to make discoveries, to= gain first-hand knowledge; as to them, a large number of statements have b= een made about them by far more highly developed persons than ourselves. I= t is as true of occult science as it is true of astronomy, that a large par= t of it is taken on trust from experts. Certain parts of it may be found ou= t by ourselves, by our own study; other parts cannot. The conditions are si= milar to those in astronomy, or in any other science. We must give to the s= tudy a large amount of time. We must study along certain lines which have b= een verified over and over again. We must go on to first-hand knowledge, wh= ich is the best but the most laborious way of acquiring knowledge. This, ho= wever, demands, to begin with, a certain amount of faculty for the particul= ar science. You may find, for instance, a man who could never become a grea= t astronomer - no matter how long he studied; a man who is deficient in mat= hematical power could never become a really great astronomer, because the h= igher mathematics are wanted in much of the astro=ADnomical study. If a man= is by nature very stupid in that science, he could never become a great as= tro=ADnomer. So it is also with occult study. There are a number of persons= who have not got the faculty to begin with. It depends upon their past, up= on the line of evolution along which they have come. Pro=ADgress depends up= on whether they have the faculty, how much time they are ready to give to t= he study, how far they are conforming to the rules laid down by experts for= beginners in the study, and so on. But admitting that there is a great dif= ference between the reception given to occult science and the reception giv= en to astronomical statements made by experts, everybody, practically every= educated person, is willing to receive the testimony of the greatest astro= nomers to facts which they are themselves unable to observe or to verify. I= t is not a matter of life and death if they are wrong. But when you come to= deal with statements of occult science, some of which you find in the grea= t Scriptures of the world, some of which you find in the ancient histories = of the world, there is much unfair scepticism in modern thinkers. Histories= are thrown aside as legendary and mythical. Scriptures are thrown aside as= superstition, though they contain the ideas of ancient peoples, much more = learned than ourselves. Hence the difficulty of Occultism in justi=ADfying = itself; a man must take it just on the lines I have put to you as to astron= omical science. But the man of the day is ready to receive science which ar= e based on apparatus. Where people make very elaborate apparatus, such as t= elescopes, spectroscopes, all kinds of things of extraordinary fineness and= delicacy, they appeal to the mind of the day, especially in the West; they= for the moment are most advanced, it is said, in ordinary sciences. That i= s the way the mind works. It looks out to the objects and builds up its the= ories by observation, comparison, classification, and so on. Anything that = goes along that line easily justifies itself to the ordinary modern mind. T= hey do not challenge. Occultism works in a different way. It works by the d= evelopment of new organs which are within the man, instead of by the manufa= cture of apparatus which is outside the man. Now the development of the inn= er senses, the inner powers of observation, can only be done under certain = rules, rules which affect the body and the conduct of the man. It is much e= asier to buy a telescope and look at the moon through it, than it is to dev= elop your own nature along lines to which evolution has not as yet accustom= ed us. There lies the difficulty of occult study. A person will be willing = to submit to a discipline, will not resent it, if it is carried on in the l= aboratory of science, but he does resent it if it comes to him with the aut= hority of the great Knowers of the past. It is along the line of facts thus= obtained that I am going to speak to you. Therefore you must take them fro= m that standpoint, and understand that I am not asking you to believe a thi= ng because I say it. I am only putting before you a theory of the Governmen= t of the World which has many facts to recommend it in his=ADtory and in re= ligion, but which may be challenged by those who do not accept ancient hist= ory, who do not accept the great Scriptures of the world of religion=AD - a= nd some which I am going to add from my own study, I will begin with that w= hich I am unable definitely to verify. I can only put to you certain reason= s for accepting it. Now broadly stated they are these. We have a solar syst= em consisting of certain planetary bodies revolving round the central sun. = These bodies are studied, and said by ordinary science to be moving under c= ertain definite forces, under certain definite laws of nature, as we call t= hem, which by observation have been established and re-verified over and ov= er again. According to that scientific view, our solar system is to a certa= in extent a self-contained body. The central sun in a sense controls the mo= vements of the planetary bodies which circle round it. And outside the sola= r system you have space, practically empty space. But science tells us ther= e are a great many solar systems. We are only one out of a group. It tells = us that the solar systems are in groups; and that we belong to a group - th= e whole group circling round another sun far, far, far off in the depths of= space; so that we are not wholly self-contained. We are under other influe= nces and are moving in obedience, as a whole group system, to other laws. W= e do not trouble much about that because we have little opportunity of obse= rvation. Any part of the argument of science there is practically an induct= ion from certain ascertained facts. You make a theory that if there were a = body exercising certain powers of attraction and repulsion, if your partic= =ADular part moves in a way which is not accounted for by anything you can = discover, then there must be something as yet unknown to you causing these = other move=ADments which you cannot trace to any force existing within our = own solar system. I know very little about that, and do not want to say any= thing more about it." Complete book can be read at http://www.anandgholap.net/Inner_Government_Of_The_World-AB.htm =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Dec 24 12:41:37 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20039 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 15:17:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2004 15:17:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 15:17:12 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1ChrBd-0005ce-Sw for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 10:17:01 -0500 Message-ID: <41CC32ED.6060500@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 10:17:01 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <000601c4e956$782eaa80$9a82b2d1@u7k5a4> In-Reply-To: <000601c4e956$782eaa80$9a82b2d1@u7k5a4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba4020a89311c2f550a8a3f5c88c05f756547562a158a8cca8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.67 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and Bab 5 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Dennis Kier wrote: > I am also a fan of the Babylon 5 series. I have all the episodes on > tape, and try to watch it once a year. Did you notice that the Doctor's description of his religious beliefs was a form of theosophy (small "t")? Bart From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Fri Dec 24 12:47:31 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 18879 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 20:03:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2004 20:03:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.net4india.com) (202.71.129.125) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 20:02:54 -0000 Received: from [61.1.104.60] (helo=k1) by smtp.net4india.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1ChuUe-0007o0-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:18:52 +0530 Message-ID: <003101c4e9e9$3502e350$3c68013d@k1> To: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:56:53 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.71.129.125 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Government of the World X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: www_anandgholap_net Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [ www.AnandGholap.net - Online books on Theosophy ] " I want to put before you, if I can in these three lectures, a certain vie= w of the world, and of the way in which that world is guided and directed. = As this meeting is a public meeting, there is one state=ADment I think that= I ought to make, which it would not be necessary to make, if it were compo= sed of members of the Theosophical Society. It is important to remember tha= t in the Theosophical Society we have no authority on matters of opinion. E= very member is free to work out his own theory of life, to choose his own l= ine of thought, and no one has the smallest right to dictate to any member = what he should choose or what he should think. In the Theosophical Society = there is only one condition which binds a member, namely, the recognition o= f Universal Brotherhood. Outside that every member is absolutely free. He m= ay belong to any religion, or he may belong to no religion at all. If he be= longs to a religion, he is never asked to leave it, to change it, but only = to try to live up to its teachings of spiritual life, recognising the unity= of all, to live in harmony with people of his own faith and people of othe= r faiths. When we speak of Theosophy, we may take the word in one of two se= nses. The first, what it should be to the individual. In that sense there i= s no difference between Theosophy and the ancient Brahmavidya of India, the= Para Vidya, and the Gnosis of the Greek - no difference at all. It is the = recognition that man can realise God. It is called, in the Upanishad =93the= knowledge of Him by whom all things are known=94. It is a difficulty rathe= r of our language that we speak in that sense of =93knowledge=94, because k= nowledge implies a duality, or indeed a triplicity - the Knower, the Known,= and the Relation between them - whereas when the Spirit of man, who comes = forth from Ishvara, realises his own nature, it is no longer a case of thin= king or of knowing. It is a case of realising that identity. You know it is= written again in the Upanishad: =93He who says =91I know=92, he knows not,= =94 because the very word knowledge is an error in this realisation. In tha= t, we do not say, =93I know=94; we say, =93I am=94. This gives the primary = meaning of the word =93Theosophy=94. Then it is also used in a secondary se= nse: a certain body of teachings. No one of these particular teachings is b= inding on any member. The whole of these teachings together are the teachin= gs the Society is formed to put forward in the world, but it does not make = them binding on its members. That policy rests on a very sure foundation. T= he foundation is that no man can really believe a truth, until he has grown= to the extent which enables him to see it as truth for himself. A teaching= is not really a part of your spiritual life; it comes within the mental li= fe, into that part of your nature which is said to be knowledge, the intell= ect; and that is able to see that which is akin to itself. The truth in you= recognises the truth outside you, when once the inner vision is open. Henc= e, in the Society, the study of the great fundamental truths of all religio= ns is one of its objects. Members are not asked whether they believe in the= m or not. They are left to study them, in the full conviction that just as = when the eyes are open the man who is not blind sees by the light of the su= n, he is not asked to believe in the light, so is truth in the mental world= . As soon as the eyes of the inner nature, the eyes of the intellect, are o= pen, it is not a question of argument, but a question of sight. You recogni= se the truth because the faculty of truth in your own nature shows that it = exists. You see by it, as you see by the light of the sun. As long as a man= is blind, the sun to him as light is nothing. When the eyes are opened the= n no argument is necessary as to the existence of the light by which he see= s. Truth is regarded in that way, and hence the student is left to study un= til for himself he knows the truth of any doc=ADtrine. The teachings which = are spread by the Society are those which you find in every great religion.= If, for instance, you take a book published by the Central Hindu College a= s a text-book for Hindu boys, and an Advanced Text-book for Hindu young men= in the College, you will find in them certain truths. They are given in th= e Hindi form. If you take the Theosophical text-book, used for teaching in = schools where all religions are taught, where there are boys whose parents = hold particular religions, you have those truths given which are common to = all religions. The only difference is that in the Theosophical text-book, t= he various Scriptures of the world in different religions are quoted in sup= port of them, while in the Hindu text-book only the Hindu Scriptures are qu= oted. That is the only difference so far as the great ideas are con=ADcerne= d; the ideas are identical. 2. You wil= l understand that in all that I say now, I am dealing with things as they a= ppear to me. They are not binding upon any particular member, for the duty = of each is to think for himself. They do not commit the Society as a Societ= y, because that only puts forward acceptance of Universal Brotherhood as a = condition of admission. That which I say, I am responsible for. What I say = is the result of my own study. It is for every one of you, Theosophists or = non-Theosophists, member or non-member, to use your own intellect, your own= judgment, your own conscience, in weighing every statement that I make. Yo= u ought not to take them ready-made as truth for you. Everyone must use his= own thought, and not simply go by that of another. Especially is that so, = because I am going to deal with abstruse subjects. Speaking of them as trut= hs, I am speaking largely on my own knowledge and also, in addition to that= , taking certain statements congruous with what I know, but applied to a mu= ch larger area of facts then I myself am yet able to reach. For I am going = to say a few things about the larger Kosmos of the solar systems, which I a= m not able to examine for myself. I am only dealing with the subject before= you as a whole, and will deal with that part briefly. But it is necessary,= in order to give you as it were a fairly complete view, because there are = many other solar systems about which I know nothing. Most of us speak about= many facts of science which we have not been able to verify; for instance,= I am unable in astronomy to verify the statements of great astronomers as = regards the situation and the relations of our vast solar system. I have no= t studied astronomy. If I had studied, I could not have attained to the kno= wl=ADedge of great experts in that particular science. But if I find them t= eaching on the solar system the facts that they have observed and collected= by telescope and by the many other ways, like the spectroscope, that they = have of examining the composition of planets other than our own, I should t= ake this from them, if their new facts were, generally speaking, congruous = with what we know as regards our own constitution, its relationship to cert= ain other bodies mathematically worked out, and so on. We are exactly in a = similar position in dealing with what are called occult state=ADments; name= ly, statements of facts as regards a partic=ADular order of existence, with= some of which we can come into contact in our own world, the existence of = which to some extent we can find out from the history of our own world; the= re are others as to which we find ourselves unable to make discoveries, to= gain first-hand knowledge; as to them, a large number of statements have b= een made about them by far more highly developed persons than ourselves. I= t is as true of occult science as it is true of astronomy, that a large par= t of it is taken on trust from experts. Certain parts of it may be found ou= t by ourselves, by our own study; other parts cannot. The conditions are si= milar to those in astronomy, or in any other science. We must give to the s= tudy a large amount of time. We must study along certain lines which have b= een verified over and over again. We must go on to first-hand knowledge, wh= ich is the best but the most laborious way of acquiring knowledge. This, ho= wever, demands, to begin with, a certain amount of faculty for the particul= ar science. You may find, for instance, a man who could never become a grea= t astronomer - no matter how long he studied; a man who is deficient in mat= hematical power could never become a really great astronomer, because the h= igher mathematics are wanted in much of the astro=ADnomical study. If a man= is by nature very stupid in that science, he could never become a great as= tro=ADnomer. So it is also with occult study. There are a number of persons= who have not got the faculty to begin with. It depends upon their past, up= on the line of evolution along which they have come. Pro=ADgress depends up= on whether they have the faculty, how much time they are ready to give to t= he study, how far they are conforming to the rules laid down by experts for= beginners in the study, and so on. But admitting that there is a great dif= ference between the reception given to occult science and the reception giv= en to astronomical statements made by experts, everybody, practically every= educated person, is willing to receive the testimony of the greatest astro= nomers to facts which they are themselves unable to observe or to verify. I= t is not a matter of life and death if they are wrong. But when you come to= deal with statements of occult science, some of which you find in the grea= t Scriptures of the world, some of which you find in the ancient histories = of the world, there is much unfair scepticism in modern thinkers. Histories= are thrown aside as legendary and mythical. Scriptures are thrown aside as= superstition, though they contain the ideas of ancient peoples, much more = learned than ourselves. Hence the difficulty of Occultism in justi=ADfying = itself; a man must take it just on the lines I have put to you as to astron= omical science. But the man of the day is ready to receive science which ar= e based on apparatus. Where people make very elaborate apparatus, such as t= elescopes, spectroscopes, all kinds of things of extraordinary fineness and= delicacy, they appeal to the mind of the day, especially in the West; they= for the moment are most advanced, it is said, in ordinary sciences. That i= s the way the mind works. It looks out to the objects and builds up its the= ories by observation, comparison, classification, and so on. Anything that = goes along that line easily justifies itself to the ordinary modern mind. T= hey do not challenge. Occultism works in a different way. It works by the d= evelopment of new organs which are within the man, instead of by the manufa= cture of apparatus which is outside the man. Now the development of the inn= er senses, the inner powers of observation, can only be done under certain = rules, rules which affect the body and the conduct of the man. It is much e= asier to buy a telescope and look at the moon through it, than it is to dev= elop your own nature along lines to which evolution has not as yet accustom= ed us. There lies the difficulty of occult study. A person will be willing = to submit to a discipline, will not resent it, if it is carried on in the l= aboratory of science, but he does resent it if it comes to him with the aut= hority of the great Knowers of the past. It is along the line of facts thus= obtained that I am going to speak to you. Therefore you must take them fro= m that standpoint, and understand that I am not asking you to believe a thi= ng because I say it. I am only putting before you a theory of the Governmen= t of the World which has many facts to recommend it in his=ADtory and in re= ligion, but which may be challenged by those who do not accept ancient hist= ory, who do not accept the great Scriptures of the world of religion=AD - a= nd some which I am going to add from my own study, I will begin with that w= hich I am unable definitely to verify. I can only put to you certain reason= s for accepting it. Now broadly stated they are these. We have a solar syst= em consisting of certain planetary bodies revolving round the central sun. = These bodies are studied, and said by ordinary science to be moving under c= ertain definite forces, under certain definite laws of nature, as we call t= hem, which by observation have been established and re-verified over and ov= er again. According to that scientific view, our solar system is to a certa= in extent a self-contained body. The central sun in a sense controls the mo= vements of the planetary bodies which circle round it. And outside the sola= r system you have space, practically empty space. But science tells us ther= e are a great many solar systems. We are only one out of a group. It tells = us that the solar systems are in groups; and that we belong to a group - th= e whole group circling round another sun far, far, far off in the depths of= space; so that we are not wholly self-contained. We are under other influe= nces and are moving in obedience, as a whole group system, to other laws. W= e do not trouble much about that because we have little opportunity of obse= rvation. Any part of the argument of science there is practically an induct= ion from certain ascertained facts. You make a theory that if there were a = body exercising certain powers of attraction and repulsion, if your partic= =ADular part moves in a way which is not accounted for by anything you can = discover, then there must be something as yet unknown to you causing these = other move=ADments which you cannot trace to any force existing within our = own solar system. I know very little about that, and do not want to say any= thing more about it." Complete book can be read at http://www.anandgholap.net/Inner_Government_Of_The_World-AB.htm =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Dec 24 14:27:03 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49675 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 15:18:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2004 15:18:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 15:18:13 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1ChrCm-00063b-TU for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 10:18:13 -0500 Message-ID: <41CC3335.7070303@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 10:18:13 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <00c201c4e7ae$22f0aae0$fe69013d@k1> <001c01c4e853$d5ee2460$0301010a@versus> <41CA3587.9020301@sprynet.com> <41CBA69A.9080109@idirect.ca> In-Reply-To: <41CBA69A.9080109@idirect.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba4020a89311c2f55071c48bd5a38169bdd10a8cb42d4530e6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.67 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Masters Man or woman X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Mauri wrote: > I don't know about purpose, but I gather > Isis was a woman, brother of Osiris, and > apparently the pair of them had > something to do with civilizing some > ancient Egyptians. I'm tending to > speculate along the lines that those two > might seem like "Masters" to some > people. I wonder if males might've been > generally seen as more applicable, (per > traditional notions about roles), > especially in the old old days. Or maybe they were a myth? Or do you believe only White Europeans are capable of developing a civilization without outside help? Bart From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Fri Dec 24 16:12:23 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35722 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 18:42:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2004 18:42:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.net4india.com) (202.71.129.125) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 18:42:13 -0000 Received: from [61.1.104.60] (helo=k1) by smtp.net4india.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1Chu8X-0007OR-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:56:01 +0530 Message-ID: <001901c4e9e6$03fc6900$3c68013d@k1> To: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:55:15 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.71.129.125 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Government of the World X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: www_anandgholap_net Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [ www.AnandGholap.net - Online books on Theosophy ] " I want to put before you, if I can in these three lectures, a certain vie= w of the world, and of the way in which that world is guided and directed. = As this meeting is a public meeting, there is one state=ADment I think that= I ought to make, which it would not be necessary to make, if it were compo= sed of members of the Theosophical Society. It is important to remember tha= t in the Theosophical Society we have no authority on matters of opinion. E= very member is free to work out his own theory of life, to choose his own l= ine of thought, and no one has the smallest right to dictate to any member = what he should choose or what he should think. In the Theosophical Society = there is only one condition which binds a member, namely, the recognition o= f Universal Brotherhood. Outside that every member is absolutely free. He m= ay belong to any religion, or he may belong to no religion at all. If he be= longs to a religion, he is never asked to leave it, to change it, but only = to try to live up to its teachings of spiritual life, recognising the unity= of all, to live in harmony with people of his own faith and people of othe= r faiths. When we speak of Theosophy, we may take the word in one of two se= nses. The first, what it should be to the individual. In that sense there i= s no difference between Theosophy and the ancient Brahmavidya of India, the= Para Vidya, and the Gnosis of the Greek - no difference at all. It is the = recognition that man can realise God. It is called, in the Upanishad =93the= knowledge of Him by whom all things are known=94. It is a difficulty rathe= r of our language that we speak in that sense of =93knowledge=94, because k= nowledge implies a duality, or indeed a triplicity - the Knower, the Known,= and the Relation between them - whereas when the Spirit of man, who comes = forth from Ishvara, realises his own nature, it is no longer a case of thin= king or of knowing. It is a case of realising that identity. You know it is= written again in the Upanishad: =93He who says =91I know=92, he knows not,= =94 because the very word knowledge is an error in this realisation. In tha= t, we do not say, =93I know=94; we say, =93I am=94. This gives the primary = meaning of the word =93Theosophy=94. Then it is also used in a secondary se= nse: a certain body of teachings. No one of these particular teachings is b= inding on any member. The whole of these teachings together are the teachin= gs the Society is formed to put forward in the world, but it does not make = them binding on its members. That policy rests on a very sure foundation. T= he foundation is that no man can really believe a truth, until he has grown= to the extent which enables him to see it as truth for himself. A teaching= is not really a part of your spiritual life; it comes within the mental li= fe, into that part of your nature which is said to be knowledge, the intell= ect; and that is able to see that which is akin to itself. The truth in you= recognises the truth outside you, when once the inner vision is open. Henc= e, in the Society, the study of the great fundamental truths of all religio= ns is one of its objects. Members are not asked whether they believe in the= m or not. They are left to study them, in the full conviction that just as = when the eyes are open the man who is not blind sees by the light of the su= n, he is not asked to believe in the light, so is truth in the mental world= . As soon as the eyes of the inner nature, the eyes of the intellect, are o= pen, it is not a question of argument, but a question of sight. You recogni= se the truth because the faculty of truth in your own nature shows that it = exists. You see by it, as you see by the light of the sun. As long as a man= is blind, the sun to him as light is nothing. When the eyes are opened the= n no argument is necessary as to the existence of the light by which he see= s. Truth is regarded in that way, and hence the student is left to study un= til for himself he knows the truth of any doc=ADtrine. The teachings which = are spread by the Society are those which you find in every great religion.= If, for instance, you take a book published by the Central Hindu College a= s a text-book for Hindu boys, and an Advanced Text-book for Hindu young men= in the College, you will find in them certain truths. They are given in th= e Hindi form. If you take the Theosophical text-book, used for teaching in = schools where all religions are taught, where there are boys whose parents = hold particular religions, you have those truths given which are common to = all religions. The only difference is that in the Theosophical text-book, t= he various Scriptures of the world in different religions are quoted in sup= port of them, while in the Hindu text-book only the Hindu Scriptures are qu= oted. That is the only difference so far as the great ideas are con=ADcerne= d; the ideas are identical. 2. You wil= l understand that in all that I say now, I am dealing with things as they a= ppear to me. They are not binding upon any particular member, for the duty = of each is to think for himself. They do not commit the Society as a Societ= y, because that only puts forward acceptance of Universal Brotherhood as a = condition of admission. That which I say, I am responsible for. What I say = is the result of my own study. It is for every one of you, Theosophists or = non-Theosophists, member or non-member, to use your own intellect, your own= judgment, your own conscience, in weighing every statement that I make. Yo= u ought not to take them ready-made as truth for you. Everyone must use his= own thought, and not simply go by that of another. Especially is that so, = because I am going to deal with abstruse subjects. Speaking of them as trut= hs, I am speaking largely on my own knowledge and also, in addition to that= , taking certain statements congruous with what I know, but applied to a mu= ch larger area of facts then I myself am yet able to reach. For I am going = to say a few things about the larger Kosmos of the solar systems, which I a= m not able to examine for myself. I am only dealing with the subject before= you as a whole, and will deal with that part briefly. But it is necessary,= in order to give you as it were a fairly complete view, because there are = many other solar systems about which I know nothing. Most of us speak about= many facts of science which we have not been able to verify; for instance,= I am unable in astronomy to verify the statements of great astronomers as = regards the situation and the relations of our vast solar system. I have no= t studied astronomy. If I had studied, I could not have attained to the kno= wl=ADedge of great experts in that particular science. But if I find them t= eaching on the solar system the facts that they have observed and collected= by telescope and by the many other ways, like the spectroscope, that they = have of examining the composition of planets other than our own, I should t= ake this from them, if their new facts were, generally speaking, congruous = with what we know as regards our own constitution, its relationship to cert= ain other bodies mathematically worked out, and so on. We are exactly in a = similar position in dealing with what are called occult state=ADments; name= ly, statements of facts as regards a partic=ADular order of existence, with= some of which we can come into contact in our own world, the existence of = which to some extent we can find out from the history of our own world; the= re are others as to which we find ourselves unable to make discoveries, to= gain first-hand knowledge; as to them, a large number of statements have b= een made about them by far more highly developed persons than ourselves. I= t is as true of occult science as it is true of astronomy, that a large par= t of it is taken on trust from experts. Certain parts of it may be found ou= t by ourselves, by our own study; other parts cannot. The conditions are si= milar to those in astronomy, or in any other science. We must give to the s= tudy a large amount of time. We must study along certain lines which have b= een verified over and over again. We must go on to first-hand knowledge, wh= ich is the best but the most laborious way of acquiring knowledge. This, ho= wever, demands, to begin with, a certain amount of faculty for the particul= ar science. You may find, for instance, a man who could never become a grea= t astronomer - no matter how long he studied; a man who is deficient in mat= hematical power could never become a really great astronomer, because the h= igher mathematics are wanted in much of the astro=ADnomical study. If a man= is by nature very stupid in that science, he could never become a great as= tro=ADnomer. So it is also with occult study. There are a number of persons= who have not got the faculty to begin with. It depends upon their past, up= on the line of evolution along which they have come. Pro=ADgress depends up= on whether they have the faculty, how much time they are ready to give to t= he study, how far they are conforming to the rules laid down by experts for= beginners in the study, and so on. But admitting that there is a great dif= ference between the reception given to occult science and the reception giv= en to astronomical statements made by experts, everybody, practically every= educated person, is willing to receive the testimony of the greatest astro= nomers to facts which they are themselves unable to observe or to verify. I= t is not a matter of life and death if they are wrong. But when you come to= deal with statements of occult science, some of which you find in the grea= t Scriptures of the world, some of which you find in the ancient histories = of the world, there is much unfair scepticism in modern thinkers. Histories= are thrown aside as legendary and mythical. Scriptures are thrown aside as= superstition, though they contain the ideas of ancient peoples, much more = learned than ourselves. Hence the difficulty of Occultism in justi=ADfying = itself; a man must take it just on the lines I have put to you as to astron= omical science. But the man of the day is ready to receive science which ar= e based on apparatus. Where people make very elaborate apparatus, such as t= elescopes, spectroscopes, all kinds of things of extraordinary fineness and= delicacy, they appeal to the mind of the day, especially in the West; they= for the moment are most advanced, it is said, in ordinary sciences. That i= s the way the mind works. It looks out to the objects and builds up its the= ories by observation, comparison, classification, and so on. Anything that = goes along that line easily justifies itself to the ordinary modern mind. T= hey do not challenge. Occultism works in a different way. It works by the d= evelopment of new organs which are within the man, instead of by the manufa= cture of apparatus which is outside the man. Now the development of the inn= er senses, the inner powers of observation, can only be done under certain = rules, rules which affect the body and the conduct of the man. It is much e= asier to buy a telescope and look at the moon through it, than it is to dev= elop your own nature along lines to which evolution has not as yet accustom= ed us. There lies the difficulty of occult study. A person will be willing = to submit to a discipline, will not resent it, if it is carried on in the l= aboratory of science, but he does resent it if it comes to him with the aut= hority of the great Knowers of the past. It is along the line of facts thus= obtained that I am going to speak to you. Therefore you must take them fro= m that standpoint, and understand that I am not asking you to believe a thi= ng because I say it. I am only putting before you a theory of the Governmen= t of the World which has many facts to recommend it in his=ADtory and in re= ligion, but which may be challenged by those who do not accept ancient hist= ory, who do not accept the great Scriptures of the world of religion=AD - a= nd some which I am going to add from my own study, I will begin with that w= hich I am unable definitely to verify. I can only put to you certain reason= s for accepting it. Now broadly stated they are these. We have a solar syst= em consisting of certain planetary bodies revolving round the central sun. = These bodies are studied, and said by ordinary science to be moving under c= ertain definite forces, under certain definite laws of nature, as we call t= hem, which by observation have been established and re-verified over and ov= er again. According to that scientific view, our solar system is to a certa= in extent a self-contained body. The central sun in a sense controls the mo= vements of the planetary bodies which circle round it. And outside the sola= r system you have space, practically empty space. But science tells us ther= e are a great many solar systems. We are only one out of a group. It tells = us that the solar systems are in groups; and that we belong to a group - th= e whole group circling round another sun far, far, far off in the depths of= space; so that we are not wholly self-contained. We are under other influe= nces and are moving in obedience, as a whole group system, to other laws. W= e do not trouble much about that because we have little opportunity of obse= rvation. Any part of the argument of science there is practically an induct= ion from certain ascertained facts. You make a theory that if there were a = body exercising certain powers of attraction and repulsion, if your partic= =ADular part moves in a way which is not accounted for by anything you can = discover, then there must be something as yet unknown to you causing these = other move=ADments which you cannot trace to any force existing within our = own solar system. I know very little about that, and do not want to say any= thing more about it." Complete book can be read at http://www.anandgholap.net/Inner_Government_Of_The_World-AB.htm =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Fri Dec 24 16:46:14 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49013 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 19:28:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2004 19:28:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.net4india.com) (202.71.129.125) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 19:27:33 -0000 Received: from [61.1.104.60] (helo=k1) by smtp.net4india.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1Chv13-0002KG-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:52:22 +0530 Message-ID: <003b01c4e9ed$e2cbbb20$3c68013d@k1> To: Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:11 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.71.129.125 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Government of the World X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: www_anandgholap_net Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [ www.AnandGholap.net - Online books on Theosophy ] " I want to put before you, if I can in these three lectures, a certain vie= w of the world, and of the way in which that world is guided and directed. = As this meeting is a public meeting, there is one state=ADment I think that= I ought to make, which it would not be necessary to make, if it were compo= sed of members of the Theosophical Society. It is important to remember tha= t in the Theosophical Society we have no authority on matters of opinion. E= very member is free to work out his own theory of life, to choose his own l= ine of thought, and no one has the smallest right to dictate to any member = what he should choose or what he should think. In the Theosophical Society = there is only one condition which binds a member, namely, the recognition o= f Universal Brotherhood. Outside that every member is absolutely free. He m= ay belong to any religion, or he may belong to no religion at all. If he be= longs to a religion, he is never asked to leave it, to change it, but only = to try to live up to its teachings of spiritual life, recognising the unity= of all, to live in harmony with people of his own faith and people of othe= r faiths. When we speak of Theosophy, we may take the word in one of two se= nses. The first, what it should be to the individual. In that sense there i= s no difference between Theosophy and the ancient Brahmavidya of India, the= Para Vidya, and the Gnosis of the Greek - no difference at all. It is the = recognition that man can realise God. It is called, in the Upanishad =93the= knowledge of Him by whom all things are known=94. It is a difficulty rathe= r of our language that we speak in that sense of =93knowledge=94, because k= nowledge implies a duality, or indeed a triplicity - the Knower, the Known,= and the Relation between them - whereas when the Spirit of man, who comes = forth from Ishvara, realises his own nature, it is no longer a case of thin= king or of knowing. It is a case of realising that identity. You know it is= written again in the Upanishad: =93He who says =91I know=92, he knows not,= =94 because the very word knowledge is an error in this realisation. In tha= t, we do not say, =93I know=94; we say, =93I am=94. This gives the primary = meaning of the word =93Theosophy=94. Then it is also used in a secondary se= nse: a certain body of teachings. No one of these particular teachings is b= inding on any member. The whole of these teachings together are the teachin= gs the Society is formed to put forward in the world, but it does not make = them binding on its members. That policy rests on a very sure foundation. T= he foundation is that no man can really believe a truth, until he has grown= to the extent which enables him to see it as truth for himself. A teaching= is not really a part of your spiritual life; it comes within the mental li= fe, into that part of your nature which is said to be knowledge, the intell= ect; and that is able to see that which is akin to itself. The truth in you= recognises the truth outside you, when once the inner vision is open. Henc= e, in the Society, the study of the great fundamental truths of all religio= ns is one of its objects. Members are not asked whether they believe in the= m or not. They are left to study them, in the full conviction that just as = when the eyes are open the man who is not blind sees by the light of the su= n, he is not asked to believe in the light, so is truth in the mental world= . As soon as the eyes of the inner nature, the eyes of the intellect, are o= pen, it is not a question of argument, but a question of sight. You recogni= se the truth because the faculty of truth in your own nature shows that it = exists. You see by it, as you see by the light of the sun. As long as a man= is blind, the sun to him as light is nothing. When the eyes are opened the= n no argument is necessary as to the existence of the light by which he see= s. Truth is regarded in that way, and hence the student is left to study un= til for himself he knows the truth of any doc=ADtrine. The teachings which = are spread by the Society are those which you find in every great religion.= If, for instance, you take a book published by the Central Hindu College a= s a text-book for Hindu boys, and an Advanced Text-book for Hindu young men= in the College, you will find in them certain truths. They are given in th= e Hindi form. If you take the Theosophical text-book, used for teaching in = schools where all religions are taught, where there are boys whose parents = hold particular religions, you have those truths given which are common to = all religions. The only difference is that in the Theosophical text-book, t= he various Scriptures of the world in different religions are quoted in sup= port of them, while in the Hindu text-book only the Hindu Scriptures are qu= oted. That is the only difference so far as the great ideas are con=ADcerne= d; the ideas are identical. 2. You wil= l understand that in all that I say now, I am dealing with things as they a= ppear to me. They are not binding upon any particular member, for the duty = of each is to think for himself. They do not commit the Society as a Societ= y, because that only puts forward acceptance of Universal Brotherhood as a = condition of admission. That which I say, I am responsible for. What I say = is the result of my own study. It is for every one of you, Theosophists or = non-Theosophists, member or non-member, to use your own intellect, your own= judgment, your own conscience, in weighing every statement that I make. Yo= u ought not to take them ready-made as truth for you. Everyone must use his= own thought, and not simply go by that of another. Especially is that so, = because I am going to deal with abstruse subjects. Speaking of them as trut= hs, I am speaking largely on my own knowledge and also, in addition to that= , taking certain statements congruous with what I know, but applied to a mu= ch larger area of facts then I myself am yet able to reach. For I am going = to say a few things about the larger Kosmos of the solar systems, which I a= m not able to examine for myself. I am only dealing with the subject before= you as a whole, and will deal with that part briefly. But it is necessary,= in order to give you as it were a fairly complete view, because there are = many other solar systems about which I know nothing. Most of us speak about= many facts of science which we have not been able to verify; for instance,= I am unable in astronomy to verify the statements of great astronomers as = regards the situation and the relations of our vast solar system. I have no= t studied astronomy. If I had studied, I could not have attained to the kno= wl=ADedge of great experts in that particular science. But if I find them t= eaching on the solar system the facts that they have observed and collected= by telescope and by the many other ways, like the spectroscope, that they = have of examining the composition of planets other than our own, I should t= ake this from them, if their new facts were, generally speaking, congruous = with what we know as regards our own constitution, its relationship to cert= ain other bodies mathematically worked out, and so on. We are exactly in a = similar position in dealing with what are called occult state=ADments; name= ly, statements of facts as regards a partic=ADular order of existence, with= some of which we can come into contact in our own world, the existence of = which to some extent we can find out from the history of our own world; the= re are others as to which we find ourselves unable to make discoveries, to= gain first-hand knowledge; as to them, a large number of statements have b= een made about them by far more highly developed persons than ourselves. I= t is as true of occult science as it is true of astronomy, that a large par= t of it is taken on trust from experts. Certain parts of it may be found ou= t by ourselves, by our own study; other parts cannot. The conditions are si= milar to those in astronomy, or in any other science. We must give to the s= tudy a large amount of time. We must study along certain lines which have b= een verified over and over again. We must go on to first-hand knowledge, wh= ich is the best but the most laborious way of acquiring knowledge. This, ho= wever, demands, to begin with, a certain amount of faculty for the particul= ar science. You may find, for instance, a man who could never become a grea= t astronomer - no matter how long he studied; a man who is deficient in mat= hematical power could never become a really great astronomer, because the h= igher mathematics are wanted in much of the astro=ADnomical study. If a man= is by nature very stupid in that science, he could never become a great as= tro=ADnomer. So it is also with occult study. There are a number of persons= who have not got the faculty to begin with. It depends upon their past, up= on the line of evolution along which they have come. Pro=ADgress depends up= on whether they have the faculty, how much time they are ready to give to t= he study, how far they are conforming to the rules laid down by experts for= beginners in the study, and so on. But admitting that there is a great dif= ference between the reception given to occult science and the reception giv= en to astronomical statements made by experts, everybody, practically every= educated person, is willing to receive the testimony of the greatest astro= nomers to facts which they are themselves unable to observe or to verify. I= t is not a matter of life and death if they are wrong. But when you come to= deal with statements of occult science, some of which you find in the grea= t Scriptures of the world, some of which you find in the ancient histories = of the world, there is much unfair scepticism in modern thinkers. Histories= are thrown aside as legendary and mythical. Scriptures are thrown aside as= superstition, though they contain the ideas of ancient peoples, much more = learned than ourselves. Hence the difficulty of Occultism in justi=ADfying = itself; a man must take it just on the lines I have put to you as to astron= omical science. But the man of the day is ready to receive science which ar= e based on apparatus. Where people make very elaborate apparatus, such as t= elescopes, spectroscopes, all kinds of things of extraordinary fineness and= delicacy, they appeal to the mind of the day, especially in the West; they= for the moment are most advanced, it is said, in ordinary sciences. That i= s the way the mind works. It looks out to the objects and builds up its the= ories by observation, comparison, classification, and so on. Anything that = goes along that line easily justifies itself to the ordinary modern mind. T= hey do not challenge. Occultism works in a different way. It works by the d= evelopment of new organs which are within the man, instead of by the manufa= cture of apparatus which is outside the man. Now the development of the inn= er senses, the inner powers of observation, can only be done under certain = rules, rules which affect the body and the conduct of the man. It is much e= asier to buy a telescope and look at the moon through it, than it is to dev= elop your own nature along lines to which evolution has not as yet accustom= ed us. There lies the difficulty of occult study. A person will be willing = to submit to a discipline, will not resent it, if it is carried on in the l= aboratory of science, but he does resent it if it comes to him with the aut= hority of the great Knowers of the past. It is along the line of facts thus= obtained that I am going to speak to you. Therefore you must take them fro= m that standpoint, and understand that I am not asking you to believe a thi= ng because I say it. I am only putting before you a theory of the Governmen= t of the World which has many facts to recommend it in his=ADtory and in re= ligion, but which may be challenged by those who do not accept ancient hist= ory, who do not accept the great Scriptures of the world of religion=AD - a= nd some which I am going to add from my own study, I will begin with that w= hich I am unable definitely to verify. I can only put to you certain reason= s for accepting it. Now broadly stated they are these. We have a solar syst= em consisting of certain planetary bodies revolving round the central sun. = These bodies are studied, and said by ordinary science to be moving under c= ertain definite forces, under certain definite laws of nature, as we call t= hem, which by observation have been established and re-verified over and ov= er again. According to that scientific view, our solar system is to a certa= in extent a self-contained body. The central sun in a sense controls the mo= vements of the planetary bodies which circle round it. And outside the sola= r system you have space, practically empty space. But science tells us ther= e are a great many solar systems. We are only one out of a group. It tells = us that the solar systems are in groups; and that we belong to a group - th= e whole group circling round another sun far, far, far off in the depths of= space; so that we are not wholly self-contained. We are under other influe= nces and are moving in obedience, as a whole group system, to other laws. W= e do not trouble much about that because we have little opportunity of obse= rvation. Any part of the argument of science there is practically an induct= ion from certain ascertained facts. You make a theory that if there were a = body exercising certain powers of attraction and repulsion, if your partic= =ADular part moves in a way which is not accounted for by anything you can = discover, then there must be something as yet unknown to you causing these = other move=ADments which you cannot trace to any force existing within our = own solar system. I know very little about that, and do not want to say any= thing more about it." Complete book can be read at http://www.anandgholap.net/Inner_Government_Of_The_World-AB.htm =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Dec 24 18:37:28 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7677 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 21:02:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2004 21:02:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m26.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.7) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 21:02:38 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m26.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.ba.67df5782 (4410) for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:02:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:02:20 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.7 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World FW: 90# on the phone X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Check out: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=90%23+Telephone+hoax&btnG=G oogle+Search Good to make a google search before passing on any warning letters. In any case, it's smart never to follow anyone's instructions over the phone (unless your computer, telephone network, electric or cable system breaks down and you call for technical assistance.:-) In a message dated 12/18/04 9:39:34 AM, dalval14@earthlink.net writes: >Dec. 17, 2004 > > A WARNING Re: your PHONE number > >Passed on to be of assistance > >Dallas > >========================================== > >-----Original Message----- >From: Gerda Winkler [mailto:gerdawinkler@hotmail.com] >Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 3:20 PM >To: many unnamed recipients > >Subject: FW: 90# on the phone > >>From: "Alan Winkler" >>To: gerdawinkler@hotmail.com >>Subject: 90# on the phone >>Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:48:00 +0000 > >> >> PASS ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW >> >>I received a telephone call last evening from an individual >>identifying himself as an AT&T Service technician who was conducting a >>test on telephone lines. He stated that to complete the test I should >>touch nine(9), zero(0), the pound sign (#), and then hang up. >> >> Luckily, I was suspicious and refused. >> >> Upon contacting the telephone company, I was informed that by >>pushing 90#, you give the requesting individual full access to your >>telephone line, which enables them to place long distance calls billed >>to your home phone number. >> >> I was further informed that this scam has been originating from many >>local jails/prisons. I have also verified this information with UCB >>Telecom,Pacific Bell, MCI, Bell Atlantic and GTE. Please beware. >> >> DO NOT press 90# for ANYONE. >> >> The GTE Security Department requested that I share this information >>with EVERYONE I KNOW. >> >> PLEASE pass this on to everyone YOU know. >> >> If you have mailing lists and/or newsletters from organizations you >>are connected with, I encourage you to pass on this information to them. >> >> After checking with Verizon they said it was true, so do not dial >>(9),zero(0), the pound sign # and hang up for anyone. >> >> PLEASE HIT THAT FORWARD BUTTON AND PASS THIS ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW >> > From eldon@theosophy.com Fri Dec 24 20:39:43 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 68253 invoked from network); 25 Dec 2004 03:08:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Dec 2004 03:08:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.42) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Dec 2004 03:08:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Dec 2004 03:08:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.165] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Dec 2004 03:08:30 -0000 Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 03:08:30 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003b01c4e9ed$e2cbbb20$3c68013d@k1> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 14771 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.42 From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Originating-IP: 24.24.135.142 Subject: Re: Government of the World X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker Everyone: Any particular message should only be posted once to the list. It=20 looks like this message was posted seven times over a 5 1/2 hour=20 period. If you've posted a message and don't see it come out right=20 away, it may be that Yahoo Groups has gotten slowed down. Sometimes=20 there's a lag; it doesn't always respond immediately.=20 If anyone has posted a message and is not clear if it has gone out,=20 check the Yahoo Groups pages for theos-talk. The most recently=20 posted messages will show up there. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk Eldon Tucker --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anand Gholap" =20 wrote: > [ www.AnandGholap.net - Online books on Theosophy ] >=20 > " I want to put before you, if I can in these three lectures, a=20 certain view of the world, and of the way in which that world is=20 guided and directed. As this meeting is a public meeting, there is=20 one state=ADment I think that I ought to make, which it would not be=20 necessary to make, if it were composed of members of the=20 Theosophical Society. It is important to remember that in the=20 Theosophical Society we have no authority on matters of opinion.=20 Every member is free to work out his own theory of life, to choose=20 his own line of thought, and no one has the smallest right to=20 dictate to any member what he should choose or what he should think.=20 In the Theosophical Society there is only one condition which binds=20 a member, namely, the recognition of Universal Brotherhood. Outside=20 that every member is absolutely free. He may belong to any religion,=20 or he may belong to no religion at all. If he belongs to a religion,=20 he is never asked to leave it, to change it, but only to try to live=20 up to its teachings of spiritual life, recognising the unity of all,=20 to live in harmony with people of his own faith and people of other=20 faiths. When we speak of Theosophy, we may take the word in one of=20 two senses. The first, what it should be to the individual. In that=20 sense there is no difference between Theosophy and the ancient=20 Brahmavidya of India, the Para Vidya, and the Gnosis of the Greek -=20 no difference at all. It is the recognition that man can realise=20 God. It is called, in the Upanishad "the knowledge of Him by whom=20 all things are known". It is a difficulty rather of our language=20 that we speak in that sense of "knowledge", because knowledge=20 implies a duality, or indeed a triplicity - the Knower, the Known,=20 and the Relation between them - whereas when the Spirit of man, who=20 comes forth from Ishvara, realises his own nature, it is no longer a=20 case of thinking or of knowing. It is a case of realising that=20 identity. You know it is written again in the Upanishad: "He who=20 says `I know', he knows not," because the very word knowledge is an=20 error in this realisation. In that, we do not say, "I know"; we=20 say, "I am". This gives the primary meaning of the word "Theosophy".=20 Then it is also used in a secondary sense: a certain body of=20 teachings. No one of these particular teachings is binding on any=20 member. The whole of these teachings together are the teachings the=20 Society is formed to put forward in the world, but it does not make=20 them binding on its members. That policy rests on a very sure=20 foundation. The foundation is that no man can really believe a=20 truth, until he has grown to the extent which enables him to see it=20 as truth for himself. A teaching is not really a part of your=20 spiritual life; it comes within the mental life, into that part of=20 your nature which is said to be knowledge, the intellect; and that=20 is able to see that which is akin to itself. The truth in you=20 recognises the truth outside you, when once the inner vision is=20 open. Hence, in the Society, the study of the great fundamental=20 truths of all religions is one of its objects. Members are not asked=20 whether they believe in them or not. They are left to study them, in=20 the full conviction that just as when the eyes are open the man who=20 is not blind sees by the light of the sun, he is not asked to=20 believe in the light, so is truth in the mental world. As soon as=20 the eyes of the inner nature, the eyes of the intellect, are open,=20 it is not a question of argument, but a question of sight. You=20 recognise the truth because the faculty of truth in your own nature=20 shows that it exists. You see by it, as you see by the light of the=20 sun. As long as a man is blind, the sun to him as light is nothing.=20 When the eyes are opened then no argument is necessary as to the=20 existence of the light by which he sees. Truth is regarded in that=20 way, and hence the student is left to study until for himself he=20 knows the truth of any doc=ADtrine. The teachings which are spread by=20 the Society are those which you find in every great religion. If,=20 for instance, you take a book published by the Central Hindu College=20 as a text-book for Hindu boys, and an Advanced Text-book for Hindu=20 young men in the College, you will find in them certain truths. They=20 are given in the Hindi form. If you take the Theosophical text-book,=20 used for teaching in schools where all religions are taught, where=20 there are boys whose parents hold particular religions, you have=20 those truths given which are common to all religions. The only=20 difference is that in the Theosophical text-book, the various=20 Scriptures of the world in different religions are quoted in support=20 of them, while in the Hindu text-book only the Hindu Scriptures are=20 quoted. That is the only difference so far as the great ideas are=20 con=ADcerned; the ideas are identical. >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 2. You will=20 understand that in all that I say now, I am dealing with things as=20 they appear to me. They are not binding upon any particular member,=20 for the duty of each is to think for himself. They do not commit the=20 Society as a Society, because that only puts forward acceptance of=20 Universal Brotherhood as a condition of admission. That which I say,=20 I am responsible for. What I say is the result of my own study. It=20 is for every one of you, Theosophists or non-Theosophists, member or=20 non-member, to use your own intellect, your own judgment, your own=20 conscience, in weighing every statement that I make. You ought not=20 to take them ready-made as truth for you. Everyone must use his own=20 thought, and not simply go by that of another. Especially is that=20 so, because I am going to deal with abstruse subjects. Speaking of=20 them as truths, I am speaking largely on my own knowledge and also,=20 in addition to that, taking certain statements congruous with what I=20 know, but applied to a much larger area of facts then I myself am=20 yet able to reach. For I am going to say a few things about the=20 larger Kosmos of the solar systems, which I am not able to examine=20 for myself. I am only dealing with the subject before you as a=20 whole, and will deal with that part briefly. But it is necessary, in=20 order to give you as it were a fairly complete view, because there=20 are many other solar systems about which I know nothing. Most of us=20 speak about many facts of science which we have not been able to=20 verify; for instance, I am unable in astronomy to verify the=20 statements of great astronomers as regards the situation and the=20 relations of our vast solar system. I have not studied astronomy. If=20 I had studied, I could not have attained to the knowl=ADedge of great=20 experts in that particular science. But if I find them teaching on=20 the solar system the facts that they have observed and collected by=20 telescope and by the many other ways, like the spectroscope, that=20 they have of examining the composition of planets other than our=20 own, I should take this from them, if their new facts were,=20 generally speaking, congruous with what we know as regards our own=20 constitution, its relationship to certain other bodies=20 mathematically worked out, and so on. We are exactly in a similar=20 position in dealing with what are called occult state=ADments; namely,=20 statements of facts as regards a partic=ADular order of existence, with=20 some of which we can come into contact in our own world, the=20 existence of which to some extent we can find out from the history=20 of our own world; there are others as to which we find ourselves=20 unable to make discoveries, to gain first-hand knowledge; as to=20 them, a large number of statements have been made about them by far=20 more highly developed persons than ourselves. It is as true of=20 occult science as it is true of astronomy, that a large part of it=20 is taken on trust from experts. Certain parts of it may be found out=20 by ourselves, by our own study; other parts cannot. The conditions=20 are similar to those in astronomy, or in any other science. We must=20 give to the study a large amount of time. We must study along=20 certain lines which have been verified over and over again. We must=20 go on to first-hand knowledge, which is the best but the most=20 laborious way of acquiring knowledge. This, however, demands, to=20 begin with, a certain amount of faculty for the particular science.=20 You may find, for instance, a man who could never become a great=20 astronomer - no matter how long he studied; a man who is deficient=20 in mathematical power could never become a really great astronomer,=20 because the higher mathematics are wanted in much of the astro=AD nomical study. If a man is by nature very stupid in that science, he=20 could never become a great astro=ADnomer. So it is also with occult=20 study. There are a number of persons who have not got the faculty to=20 begin with. It depends upon their past, upon the line of evolution=20 along which they have come. Pro=ADgress depends upon whether they have=20 the faculty, how much time they are ready to give to the study, how=20 far they are conforming to the rules laid down by experts for=20 beginners in the study, and so on. But admitting that there is a=20 great difference between the reception given to occult science and=20 the reception given to astronomical statements made by experts,=20 everybody, practically every educated person, is willing to receive=20 the testimony of the greatest astronomers to facts which they are=20 themselves unable to observe or to verify. It is not a matter of=20 life and death if they are wrong. But when you come to deal with=20 statements of occult science, some of which you find in the great=20 Scriptures of the world, some of which you find in the ancient=20 histories of the world, there is much unfair scepticism in modern=20 thinkers. Histories are thrown aside as legendary and mythical.=20 Scriptures are thrown aside as superstition, though they contain the=20 ideas of ancient peoples, much more learned than ourselves. Hence=20 the difficulty of Occultism in justi=ADfying itself; a man must take it=20 just on the lines I have put to you as to astronomical science. But=20 the man of the day is ready to receive science which are based on=20 apparatus. Where people make very elaborate apparatus, such as=20 telescopes, spectroscopes, all kinds of things of extraordinary=20 fineness and delicacy, they appeal to the mind of the day,=20 especially in the West; they for the moment are most advanced, it is=20 said, in ordinary sciences. That is the way the mind works. It looks=20 out to the objects and builds up its theories by observation,=20 comparison, classification, and so on. Anything that goes along that=20 line easily justifies itself to the ordinary modern mind. They do=20 not challenge. Occultism works in a different way. It works by the=20 development of new organs which are within the man, instead of by=20 the manufacture of apparatus which is outside the man. Now the=20 development of the inner senses, the inner powers of observation,=20 can only be done under certain rules, rules which affect the body=20 and the conduct of the man. It is much easier to buy a telescope and=20 look at the moon through it, than it is to develop your own nature=20 along lines to which evolution has not as yet accustomed us. There=20 lies the difficulty of occult study. A person will be willing to=20 submit to a discipline, will not resent it, if it is carried on in=20 the laboratory of science, but he does resent it if it comes to him=20 with the authority of the great Knowers of the past. It is along the=20 line of facts thus obtained that I am going to speak to you.=20 Therefore you must take them from that standpoint, and understand=20 that I am not asking you to believe a thing because I say it. I am=20 only putting before you a theory of the Government of the World=20 which has many facts to recommend it in his=ADtory and in religion, but=20 which may be challenged by those who do not accept ancient history,=20 who do not accept the great Scriptures of the world of religion=AD -=20 and some which I am going to add from my own study, I will begin=20 with that which I am unable definitely to verify. I can only put to=20 you certain reasons for accepting it. Now broadly stated they are=20 these. We have a solar system consisting of certain planetary bodies=20 revolving round the central sun. These bodies are studied, and said=20 by ordinary science to be moving under certain definite forces,=20 under certain definite laws of nature, as we call them, which by=20 observation have been established and re-verified over and over=20 again. According to that scientific view, our solar system is to a=20 certain extent a self-contained body. The central sun in a sense=20 controls the movements of the planetary bodies which circle round=20 it. And outside the solar system you have space, practically empty=20 space. But science tells us there are a great many solar systems. We=20 are only one out of a group. It tells us that the solar systems are=20 in groups; and that we belong to a group - the whole group circling=20 round another sun far, far, far off in the depths of space; so that=20 we are not wholly self-contained. We are under other influences and=20 are moving in obedience, as a whole group system, to other laws. We=20 do not trouble much about that because we have little opportunity of=20 observation. Any part of the argument of science there is=20 practically an induction from certain ascertained facts. You make a=20 theory that if there were a body exercising certain powers of=20 attraction and repulsion, if your partic=ADular part moves in a way=20 which is not accounted for by anything you can discover, then there=20 must be something as yet unknown to you causing these other move=AD ments which you cannot trace to any force existing within our own=20 solar system. I know very little about that, and do not want to say=20 anything more about it." >=20 > Complete book can be read at >=20 > http://www.anandgholap.net/Inner_Government_Of_The_World-AB.htm >=20 >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zakkduffany@earthlink.net Fri Dec 24 21:11:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12206 invoked from network); 25 Dec 2004 03:09:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Dec 2004 03:09:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.40) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Dec 2004 03:09:17 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Dec 2004 03:09:17 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.173] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Dec 2004 03:09:17 -0000 X-Sender: zakkduffany@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 25849 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2004 06:10:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Dec 2004 06:10:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Dec 2004 06:10:15 -0000 Received: from [63.159.124.38] (helo=downunder) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1ChMAb-0004nS-VA for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 01:09:55 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=MF+HQc1017EbxoTFgIqZjUhow/zsegNw0qLr6lJ7PhVCHhxeM7DXwgyybK9f5n9p; Message-ID: <000c01c4e8b6$062de720$267c9f3f@downunder> To: References: <20041222121450.25254.qmail@web54106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 01:09:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: 6032057824b7a799ff7034cf760bda279ef193a6bfc3dd48703a1cf72dec975577ea9a0778e1d2401e3821db987f1b31350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.66 From: "Zakk Duffany" Reply-To: "Zakk Duffany" X-Originating-IP: 63.159.124.38 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and reincarnation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=196035959 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 25 Dec 2004 03:09:01 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.40 Thoughts on organ donations and effects : Traits : It has been said and observed that an individual who has received a donated organ may gain a new trait. To go beyond only perceiving traits as an effect from an organ may open a wider spectrum of thought and greater insight. A main avenue of developing traits is by association. Whether it be from family members, friends, school mates, or business interaction with other individuals. Traits can be effected by heavenly bodies, such as the full moon or astrological signs. Traits can also be effected by the intake of food. Certain foods are related to certain traits. It has been observed that a diet change can effect the traits in an individual. Traits can alter due to a menstrual cycle, menopause ( males also experience this although it is referred by another term), or pregnancy.. Drugs can effect traits. An injury or bodily change can effect an individual's traits. How one responds or reacts to the enviroment one is experiencing is a deciding factor whether a personal trait is altered or retained. The changing of traits is a natural occurence. To fear a change of traits due to an organ transplant can be viewed as the same as to fear a change of traits due to associating with a family member or school mates. To not have a transplant due to that fear can be viewed as not associating with family or friends due the fear of a possible trait change. Or not drive a car due to a possible accident which may result in a change of traits. There are many possibilities which one encounters in life which may change a trait. To not fear and accept life's events with a positive attitude seems to be a path that would have optimal results, whether it be an organ transplant or a drive in the country. Karma : What is karma based on? What generates karma? There is karma and karma attachment. These are two different issues. Karma is impersonal. This would mean no predjudices. To think clearly and have clarity on what karma entails can result in fuller understandings of karma itself. A manner in which karma is percieved by some is a law of action and reaction or law of merit and demerit. In the Key To Theosophy it states the following : " Karma neither punishes nor rewards; it is simply the one Universal LAW which guides unerringly and, so to say, blindly, all other laws productive of certain effects along the grooves of their respective causations." It also states : "Karma is that unseen and unknown law which adjusts wisely, intelligently and equitably each effect to its cause, tracing the latter back to its producer. Though itself unknowable, its action is perceivable." In taking into consideration the comments given in the Key To Theosophy, it would seem to be an unjustifiable reason to not accept a transplant due to any karmic reasons in regards to the previous body or individual in which the organ resided. The organ does not generate your karma, you do. Nor is karma passed on from one individual to another through an organ / blood. Karmic consequences are not based on physical objects, but by personal choices and actions thereof. Impressions : Impression are made upon matter. In regards to the matter that consists of a human body, it is not only the individual occupying the body that leaves impressions upon it. Whether it be the outer skin or the inner organs, it is subjected to the impressions made by other individuals. This includes the atomic level. Being within the aura or energy field of another individual will leave impressions on the matter that your body consists of. It is not the impressions that generate karmic consequences but the cause of those impressions. The effect of an organ changing owners is similar to the effect of a shirt changing owners. The effect is physical, perhaps mental or emotional, but not karmic. A body is a raiment of an individual. This raiment is utilized by other life forms when an individual passes out of the body when an incarnation ends. Whether one chooses to have a portion of the raiment utilized by another life form when still incarnated is a personal choice. Brotherhood : What is the definition of brotherhood? What are the acts of brotherhood? Is the human race all one? If one was to perceive all as one, what would be the thoughts on sharing parts of the one? To say all is one, and to act as all is one, can be seen as being different. How does unification occur? How is separateness maintained? What path is being chosen and followed? The answers to some questions can be difficult to discern and be applied as well. From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Dec 24 21:55:39 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98327 invoked from network); 25 Dec 2004 03:13:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Dec 2004 03:13:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d21.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.207) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Dec 2004 03:13:52 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.12f.533715fe (4254) for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:13:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <12f.533715fe.2efe34e7@aol.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:13:43 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.144.207 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World How fractal evolution works - part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Mauri, thanks for the good wishes. But, even if I am beating my head against a wall, maybe someday a few eager accredited scientists with theosophical leanings might pick up the ABC ideas and incorporate them into their radically new theories -- to come up with a respectable and provable "Unified Field Theory of Everything" that might shake up the rest of them. Then, perhaps, they could start collaborating on building that "pyramid" of theosophically linked scientific ideas that might wake up the rest of the world. In the meantime, all I can do is keep on promulgating the ABC ideas wherever and however the opportunities appear. Recently, I've been contacted by some interested scientists and engineers who are beginning to see some light at the end of the tunnel. They apparently think that my combining of the source of consciousness with that of physical matter, and the conjoining of subject with object, linking mind to brain and awareness to will or intent, is just what's missing in their respective theories. As we begin to combine our various directions of thought, we'll see what the future brings. In the interim, I'll keep on plugging away through the various scientific and theosophical forums -- with the hope that some more thinkers and doers might start throwing their two cents in, and giving us wall bangers a hand with some useful ideas. :-) Best wishes, Leonardo In a message dated 12/17/04 1:21:10 PM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote, in part: >> How fractal evolution works... >> This won't occur until scientists realize that consciousness (as awareness >> and will or intent) is a universal aspect of fundamental reality related to the >> zero-point itself... That is everywhere (contiguous on the highest level of >> zero-point energy) and is the central origin of all fields of force... While being >> the basis of the so called "entanglement" or "action at a distance" between >> fundamental quantum particles on any level. With this ultimate understanding >> they will also be able to synthesize information theory with relativity and >> quantum theories, along with recent theories of Aether physics, plasma >> electrodynamics, holographic paradigm, etc., and come up with an entirely >> new and synthetic scientific (physics, biology, cosmology, physiology, etc.) >> paradigm. When all this is accomplished, science will be able to finally merge >> with religion... And, the rest of Mankind can go about learning these fundamental >> truths, absorbing them (along with the eternality of spirit or self, and the unity >> and connectedness of all that they imply) into their souls, and cleaning up >> its act (that is now driving the world toward it ultimate destruction). >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Leon Maurer >> http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics > >Leon, those kinds of efforts remind me >of the efforts of those "gods" like >Osiris during the "First Time" (Zep >Tepi) in ancient Egypt. So maybe if you >were to build a few impressive pyramids > or some kind of equally impressive >things, as well, would that help to >impressive the natives that more is >going on than meets the average native >eye ... ? Not that your ABC's might not >necessarily be seen as impressive >enough, maybe, in some sense, maybe ... >but then if your ABC's get the same kind >of interpretive treatment that the >pyramids have had from orthodox >Egyptologists, well ... ^:-/ ... > >Good Luck, anyway. >Mauri > >PS Been reading Hancocks FINGERPRINTS >OF THE GODS, lately. Fascinating. From samblo@cs.com Sat Dec 25 02:37:26 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 9816 invoked from network); 25 Dec 2004 09:39:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Dec 2004 09:39:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d22.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.208) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Dec 2004 09:39:26 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.13d.94817ed (4552) for ; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 04:39:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <13d.94817ed.2efe8f48@cs.com> Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 04:39:20 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.144.208 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Masters Man or woman X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Mauri, Well at least in Tibet there were woman who were recognized is Masters and they didn't have beards either: women of the Himalayas http://www.yoniversum.nl/dakini/himalwom.html So Madam Blavatsky's proposition that she was trained was not a solitary item. John From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Dec 25 07:42:18 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20437 invoked from network); 25 Dec 2004 15:42:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Dec 2004 15:42:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m20.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.1) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Dec 2004 15:42:17 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.d4.1e1a0051 (4394) for ; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 10:42:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 10:42:10 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.1 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Government of the World X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/24/04 11:40:25 PM Central Standard Time, eldon@theosophy.com writes: << If you've posted a message and don't see it come out right away, it may be that Yahoo Groups has gotten slowed down. Sometimes there's a lag; it doesn't always respond immediately. >> Yahoo went more than slightly insane a couple of days ago and some things never got out and some things got posted multiple times. And considering the state of the world a good case could be made that if there is an inner government it should be overthrown and quickly. Chuck the Anarchistic Heretic From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Sat Dec 25 10:29:19 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 87043 invoked from network); 25 Dec 2004 18:29:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Dec 2004 18:29:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.35) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Dec 2004 18:29:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Dec 2004 18:29:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.119] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Dec 2004 18:29:18 -0000 Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 18:29:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 15427 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.35 From: "Anand Gholap" X-Originating-IP: 61.1.105.35 Subject: Re: Government of the World X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: www_anandgholap_net You are right. It doesn't happen always. Perhaps because of Christmas. --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Eldon B Tucker" =20 wrote: >=20 > Everyone: >=20 > Any particular message should only be posted once to the list. It=20 > looks like this message was posted seven times over a 5 1/2 hour=20 > period. If you've posted a message and don't see it come out right=20 > away, it may be that Yahoo Groups has gotten slowed down. Sometimes=20 > there's a lag; it doesn't always respond immediately.=20 >=20 > If anyone has posted a message and is not clear if it has gone out,=20 > check the Yahoo Groups pages for theos-talk. The most recently=20 > posted messages will show up there. Go to >=20 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk >=20 > Eldon Tucker >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anand Gholap"=20 =20 > wrote: > > [ www.AnandGholap.net - Online books on Theosophy ] > >=20 > > " I want to put before you, if I can in these three lectures, a=20 > certain view of the world, and of the way in which that world is=20 > guided and directed. As this meeting is a public meeting, there is=20 > one state=ADment I think that I ought to make, which it would not be=20 > necessary to make, if it were composed of members of the=20 > Theosophical Society. It is important to remember that in the=20 > Theosophical Society we have no authority on matters of opinion.=20 > Every member is free to work out his own theory of life, to choose=20 > his own line of thought, and no one has the smallest right to=20 > dictate to any member what he should choose or what he should=20 think.=20 > In the Theosophical Society there is only one condition which binds=20 > a member, namely, the recognition of Universal Brotherhood. Outside=20 > that every member is absolutely free. He may belong to any=20 religion,=20 > or he may belong to no religion at all. If he belongs to a=20 religion,=20 > he is never asked to leave it, to change it, but only to try to=20 live=20 > up to its teachings of spiritual life, recognising the unity of=20 all,=20 > to live in harmony with people of his own faith and people of other=20 > faiths. When we speak of Theosophy, we may take the word in one of=20 > two senses. The first, what it should be to the individual. In that=20 > sense there is no difference between Theosophy and the ancient=20 > Brahmavidya of India, the Para Vidya, and the Gnosis of the Greek -=20 > no difference at all. It is the recognition that man can realise=20 > God. It is called, in the Upanishad "the knowledge of Him by whom=20 > all things are known". It is a difficulty rather of our language=20 > that we speak in that sense of "knowledge", because knowledge=20 > implies a duality, or indeed a triplicity - the Knower, the Known,=20 > and the Relation between them - whereas when the Spirit of man, who=20 > comes forth from Ishvara, realises his own nature, it is no longer=20 a=20 > case of thinking or of knowing. It is a case of realising that=20 > identity. You know it is written again in the Upanishad: "He who=20 > says `I know', he knows not," because the very word knowledge is an=20 > error in this realisation. In that, we do not say, "I know"; we=20 > say, "I am". This gives the primary meaning of the=20 word "Theosophy".=20 > Then it is also used in a secondary sense: a certain body of=20 > teachings. No one of these particular teachings is binding on any=20 > member. The whole of these teachings together are the teachings the=20 > Society is formed to put forward in the world, but it does not make=20 > them binding on its members. That policy rests on a very sure=20 > foundation. The foundation is that no man can really believe a=20 > truth, until he has grown to the extent which enables him to see it=20 > as truth for himself. A teaching is not really a part of your=20 > spiritual life; it comes within the mental life, into that part of=20 > your nature which is said to be knowledge, the intellect; and that=20 > is able to see that which is akin to itself. The truth in you=20 > recognises the truth outside you, when once the inner vision is=20 > open. Hence, in the Society, the study of the great fundamental=20 > truths of all religions is one of its objects. Members are not=20 asked=20 > whether they believe in them or not. They are left to study them,=20 in=20 > the full conviction that just as when the eyes are open the man who=20 > is not blind sees by the light of the sun, he is not asked to=20 > believe in the light, so is truth in the mental world. As soon as=20 > the eyes of the inner nature, the eyes of the intellect, are open,=20 > it is not a question of argument, but a question of sight. You=20 > recognise the truth because the faculty of truth in your own nature=20 > shows that it exists. You see by it, as you see by the light of the=20 > sun. As long as a man is blind, the sun to him as light is nothing.=20 > When the eyes are opened then no argument is necessary as to the=20 > existence of the light by which he sees. Truth is regarded in that=20 > way, and hence the student is left to study until for himself he=20 > knows the truth of any doc=ADtrine. The teachings which are spread by=20 > the Society are those which you find in every great religion. If,=20 > for instance, you take a book published by the Central Hindu=20 College=20 > as a text-book for Hindu boys, and an Advanced Text-book for Hindu=20 > young men in the College, you will find in them certain truths.=20 They=20 > are given in the Hindi form. If you take the Theosophical text- book,=20 > used for teaching in schools where all religions are taught, where=20 > there are boys whose parents hold particular religions, you have=20 > those truths given which are common to all religions. The only=20 > difference is that in the Theosophical text-book, the various=20 > Scriptures of the world in different religions are quoted in=20 support=20 > of them, while in the Hindu text-book only the Hindu Scriptures are=20 > quoted. That is the only difference so far as the great ideas are=20 > con=ADcerned; the ideas are identical. > >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 > 2. You will=20 > understand that in all that I say now, I am dealing with things as=20 > they appear to me. They are not binding upon any particular member,=20 > for the duty of each is to think for himself. They do not commit=20 the=20 > Society as a Society, because that only puts forward acceptance of=20 > Universal Brotherhood as a condition of admission. That which I=20 say,=20 > I am responsible for. What I say is the result of my own study. It=20 > is for every one of you, Theosophists or non-Theosophists, member=20 or=20 > non-member, to use your own intellect, your own judgment, your own=20 > conscience, in weighing every statement that I make. You ought not=20 > to take them ready-made as truth for you. Everyone must use his own=20 > thought, and not simply go by that of another. Especially is that=20 > so, because I am going to deal with abstruse subjects. Speaking of=20 > them as truths, I am speaking largely on my own knowledge and also,=20 > in addition to that, taking certain statements congruous with what=20 I=20 > know, but applied to a much larger area of facts then I myself am=20 > yet able to reach. For I am going to say a few things about the=20 > larger Kosmos of the solar systems, which I am not able to examine=20 > for myself. I am only dealing with the subject before you as a=20 > whole, and will deal with that part briefly. But it is necessary,=20 in=20 > order to give you as it were a fairly complete view, because there=20 > are many other solar systems about which I know nothing. Most of us=20 > speak about many facts of science which we have not been able to=20 > verify; for instance, I am unable in astronomy to verify the=20 > statements of great astronomers as regards the situation and the=20 > relations of our vast solar system. I have not studied astronomy.=20 If=20 > I had studied, I could not have attained to the knowl=ADedge of great=20 > experts in that particular science. But if I find them teaching on=20 > the solar system the facts that they have observed and collected by=20 > telescope and by the many other ways, like the spectroscope, that=20 > they have of examining the composition of planets other than our=20 > own, I should take this from them, if their new facts were,=20 > generally speaking, congruous with what we know as regards our own=20 > constitution, its relationship to certain other bodies=20 > mathematically worked out, and so on. We are exactly in a similar=20 > position in dealing with what are called occult state=ADments; namely,=20 > statements of facts as regards a partic=ADular order of existence,=20 with=20 > some of which we can come into contact in our own world, the=20 > existence of which to some extent we can find out from the history=20 > of our own world; there are others as to which we find ourselves=20 > unable to make discoveries, to gain first-hand knowledge; as to=20 > them, a large number of statements have been made about them by far=20 > more highly developed persons than ourselves. It is as true of=20 > occult science as it is true of astronomy, that a large part of it=20 > is taken on trust from experts. Certain parts of it may be found=20 out=20 > by ourselves, by our own study; other parts cannot. The conditions=20 > are similar to those in astronomy, or in any other science. We must=20 > give to the study a large amount of time. We must study along=20 > certain lines which have been verified over and over again. We must=20 > go on to first-hand knowledge, which is the best but the most=20 > laborious way of acquiring knowledge. This, however, demands, to=20 > begin with, a certain amount of faculty for the particular science.=20 > You may find, for instance, a man who could never become a great=20 > astronomer - no matter how long he studied; a man who is deficient=20 > in mathematical power could never become a really great astronomer,=20 > because the higher mathematics are wanted in much of the astro=AD > nomical study. If a man is by nature very stupid in that science,=20 he=20 > could never become a great astro=ADnomer. So it is also with occult=20 > study. There are a number of persons who have not got the faculty=20 to=20 > begin with. It depends upon their past, upon the line of evolution=20 > along which they have come. Pro=ADgress depends upon whether they have=20 > the faculty, how much time they are ready to give to the study, how=20 > far they are conforming to the rules laid down by experts for=20 > beginners in the study, and so on. But admitting that there is a=20 > great difference between the reception given to occult science and=20 > the reception given to astronomical statements made by experts,=20 > everybody, practically every educated person, is willing to receive=20 > the testimony of the greatest astronomers to facts which they are=20 > themselves unable to observe or to verify. It is not a matter of=20 > life and death if they are wrong. But when you come to deal with=20 > statements of occult science, some of which you find in the great=20 > Scriptures of the world, some of which you find in the ancient=20 > histories of the world, there is much unfair scepticism in modern=20 > thinkers. Histories are thrown aside as legendary and mythical.=20 > Scriptures are thrown aside as superstition, though they contain=20 the=20 > ideas of ancient peoples, much more learned than ourselves. Hence=20 > the difficulty of Occultism in justi=ADfying itself; a man must take=20 it=20 > just on the lines I have put to you as to astronomical science. But=20 > the man of the day is ready to receive science which are based on=20 > apparatus. Where people make very elaborate apparatus, such as=20 > telescopes, spectroscopes, all kinds of things of extraordinary=20 > fineness and delicacy, they appeal to the mind of the day,=20 > especially in the West; they for the moment are most advanced, it=20 is=20 > said, in ordinary sciences. That is the way the mind works. It=20 looks=20 > out to the objects and builds up its theories by observation,=20 > comparison, classification, and so on. Anything that goes along=20 that=20 > line easily justifies itself to the ordinary modern mind. They do=20 > not challenge. Occultism works in a different way. It works by the=20 > development of new organs which are within the man, instead of by=20 > the manufacture of apparatus which is outside the man. Now the=20 > development of the inner senses, the inner powers of observation,=20 > can only be done under certain rules, rules which affect the body=20 > and the conduct of the man. It is much easier to buy a telescope=20 and=20 > look at the moon through it, than it is to develop your own nature=20 > along lines to which evolution has not as yet accustomed us. There=20 > lies the difficulty of occult study. A person will be willing to=20 > submit to a discipline, will not resent it, if it is carried on in=20 > the laboratory of science, but he does resent it if it comes to him=20 > with the authority of the great Knowers of the past. It is along=20 the=20 > line of facts thus obtained that I am going to speak to you.=20 > Therefore you must take them from that standpoint, and understand=20 > that I am not asking you to believe a thing because I say it. I am=20 > only putting before you a theory of the Government of the World=20 > which has many facts to recommend it in his=ADtory and in religion,=20 but=20 > which may be challenged by those who do not accept ancient history,=20 > who do not accept the great Scriptures of the world of religion=AD -=20 > and some which I am going to add from my own study, I will begin=20 > with that which I am unable definitely to verify. I can only put to=20 > you certain reasons for accepting it. Now broadly stated they are=20 > these. We have a solar system consisting of certain planetary=20 bodies=20 > revolving round the central sun. These bodies are studied, and said=20 > by ordinary science to be moving under certain definite forces,=20 > under certain definite laws of nature, as we call them, which by=20 > observation have been established and re-verified over and over=20 > again. According to that scientific view, our solar system is to a=20 > certain extent a self-contained body. The central sun in a sense=20 > controls the movements of the planetary bodies which circle round=20 > it. And outside the solar system you have space, practically empty=20 > space. But science tells us there are a great many solar systems.=20 We=20 > are only one out of a group. It tells us that the solar systems are=20 > in groups; and that we belong to a group - the whole group circling=20 > round another sun far, far, far off in the depths of space; so that=20 > we are not wholly self-contained. We are under other influences and=20 > are moving in obedience, as a whole group system, to other laws. We=20 > do not trouble much about that because we have little opportunity=20 of=20 > observation. Any part of the argument of science there is=20 > practically an induction from certain ascertained facts. You make a=20 > theory that if there were a body exercising certain powers of=20 > attraction and repulsion, if your partic=ADular part moves in a way=20 > which is not accounted for by anything you can discover, then there=20 > must be something as yet unknown to you causing these other move=AD > ments which you cannot trace to any force existing within our own=20 > solar system. I know very little about that, and do not want to say=20 > anything more about it." > >=20 > > Complete book can be read at > >=20 > > http://www.anandgholap.net/Inner_Government_Of_The_World-AB.htm > >=20 > >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 25 12:32:28 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 88840 invoked from network); 25 Dec 2004 20:32:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Dec 2004 20:32:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Dec 2004 20:32:27 -0000 Received: from [209.179.216.216] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CiIaK-0008K2-00; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 15:32:24 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE; b=IkjZZT3sP/wutkW/Ap/J8uG3toIq6lw5S3Tfrmt00SpJOSlGiBWBT1qsoBeOiozZ; To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 12:32:16 -0800 Message-ID: <000901c4eac0$d504f9b0$d8d8b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <000c01c4e8b6$062de720$267c9f3f@downunder> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79d3a05836cd15a33c0e33e3451382a397350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.216.216 Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and reincarnation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 25th 2004 Dear Z: THEOSOPHY states, as I understand it: KARMA is both (1) a general law of cause / effect, and it operates uniformly throughout the universe. And (2) a personal law that responds to our free-choices of action in the realms of thought, will, feeling and acts. Here are some aphorisms that apply APHORISMS ON KARMA (1) There is no Karma unless there is a being to make it or feel its effects. (2) Karma is the adjustment of effects flowing from causes, during which th= e being upon whom and through whom that adjustment is effected experiences pain or pleasure. (3) Karma is an undeviating and unerring tendency in the Universe to restor= e equilibrium, and it operates incessantly. (4) The apparent stoppage of this restoration to equilibrium is due to the necessary adjustment of disturbance at some other spot, place, or focus which is visible only to the Yogi, to the Sage, or the perfect Seer: there is therefore no stoppage, but only a hiding from view. (5) Karma operates on all things and beings from the minutest conceivable atom to Brahma. Proceeding in the three worlds men, gods, and the elemental beings, no spot in the manifested universe is exempt from its sway. (6) Karma is not subject to time, and therefore he who knows what is the ultimate division of time in this Universe knows Karma. (7) For all other men Karma is in its essential nature unknown and unknowable. (8) But its action may be known by calculation from cause to effect; and this calculation is possible because the effect is wrapped up in and is not succedent to the cause. (9) The Karma of this earth is the combination of the acts and thoughts of all beings of every grade which were concerned in the preceding Manvantara or evolutionary stream from which ours flows. (10) And as those beings include Lords of Power and Holy Men, as well as weak and wicked ones, the period of the earth's duration is greater than that of any entity or race upon it. (11) Because the Karma of this earth and its races began in a past too far back for human minds to reach, an inquiry into its beginning is useless and profitless. (12) Karmic causes already set in motion must be allowed to sweep on until exhausted, but this permits no man to refuse to help his fellows and every sentient being. (13) The effects may be counteracted or mitigated by the thoughts and acts of oneself or of another, and then the resulting effects represent the combination and interaction of the whole number of causes involved in producing the effects. (14) In the life of worlds, races, nations, and individuals, Karma cannot act unless there is an appropriate instrument provided for its action. (15) And until such appropriate instrument is found, that Karma related to it remains unexpended. (16) While a man is experiencing Karma in the instrument provided, his othe= r unexpended Karma is not exhausted through other beings or means, but is hel= d reserved for future operation; and lapse of time during which no operation of that Karma is felt causes no deterioration in its force or change in its nature. (17) The appropriateness of an instrument for the operation of Karma consists in the exact connection and relation of the Karma with the body, mind, intellectual and psychical nature acquired for use by the Ego in any life. (18) Every instrument used by any Ego in any life is appropriate to the Karma operating through it. (19) Changes may occur in the instrument during one life so as to make it appropriate for a new class of Karma, and this may take place in two ways: (a) through intensity of thought and the power of a vow, and (b) through natural alterations due to complete exhaustion of old causes. (20) As body and mind and soul have each a power of independent action, any one of these may exhaust, independently of the others, some Karmic causes more remote from or nearer to the time of their inception than those operating through other channels. (21) Karma is both merciful and just. Mercy and Justice are only opposite poles of a single whole; and Mercy without Justice is not possible in the operations of Karma. That which man calls Mercy and Justice is defective, errant, and impure. (22) Karma may be of three sorts: (a) presently operative in this life through the appropriate instruments; (b) that which is being made or stored up to be exhausted in the future; Karma held over from past life or lives and not operating yet because inhibited by inappropriateness of the instrument in use by the Ego, or by the force of Karma now operating. (23) Three fields of operation are used in each being by Karma: (a) the bod= y and the circumstances; (b) the mind and intellect; the psychic and astral planes. (24) Held-over Karma or present Karma may each, or both at once, operate in all of the three fields of Karmic operation at once, or in either of those fields a different class of Karma from that using the others may operate at the same time. (25) Birth into any sort of body and to obtain the fruits of any sort of Karma is due to the preponderance of the line of Karmic tendency. (26) The sway of Karmic tendency will influence the incarnation of an Ego, or any family of Egos, for three lives at least, when measures of repression, elimination, or counteraction are not adopted. (27) Measures taken by an Ego to repress tendency, eliminate defects, and t= o counteract by setting up different causes, will alter the sway of Karmic tendency and shorten its influence in accordance with the strength or weakness of the efforts expended in carrying out the measures adopted. (28) No man but a sage or true seer can judge another's Karma. Hence while each receives his deserts, appearances may deceive, and birth into Poverty or heavy trial may not be punishment for bad Karma, for Egos continually incarnate into poor surroundings where they experience difficulties and trials which are for the discipline of the Ego and result in strength, fortitude, and sympathy. (29) Race-Karma influences each unit in the race through the law of Distribution. National Karma operates on the members of the nation by the same law more concentrated. Family Karma governs only with a nation where families have been kept pure and distinct; for in any nation where there is a mixture of family - as obtains in each Kaliyuga period - family Karma is in general distributed over a nation. But even at such periods some familie= s remain coherent for long periods, and then the members feel the sway of family Karma. The word "family" may include several smaller families. (30) Karma operates to produce cataclysms of nature by concatenation throug= h the mental and astral planes of being. A cataclysm may be traced to an immediate physical cause such as internal fire and atmospheric disturbance, but these have been brought on by the disturbance created through the dynamic power of human thought. (31) Egos who have no Karmic connection with a portion of the globe where a cataclysm is coming on are kept without the latter's operation in two ways: (a) by repulsion acting on their inner nature, and (b) by being called and warned by those who watch the progress of the world. Path, March, 1893 =20 -- W Q Judge =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 2 =20 ENVIRONMENT=20 To the Western mind the doctrines of Karma and Reincarnation contain difficulties which while they seem imaginary to the Eastern student are nevertheless for the Western man as real as any of the other numerous obstructions in the path of salvation.=20 All difficulties are more or less imaginary, for the whole world and all it= s entanglements are said to be an illusion resulting from the notion of a separate I.=20 But while we exist here in matter, and so long as there is a manifested universe, these illusions are real to that man who has not risen above them to the knowledge that they are but the masks behind which the reality is hidden. For nearly twenty centuries the Western nations have been building up the notion of a separate I--of meum and tuum-- and it is hard for them to accep= t any system which goes against those notions. As they progress in what is called material civilization with all its dazzling allurements and aids to luxury, their delusion is further increase= d because they appraise the value of their doctrine by the results which seem to flow from it, until at last they push so far what they call the reign of law, that it becomes a reign of terror.=20 All duty to their fellows is excluded from it in practice, although the beautiful doctrines of Jesus are preached to the people daily by preachers who are paid to preach but not to enforce, and who cannot insist upon the practice which should logically follow the theory because the consequences would be a loss of position and livelihood. So when out of such a nation rises a mind that asks for help to find again the path that was lost, he is unconsciously much affected by the education not only of himself but also of his nation through all these centuries. He has inherited tendencies that are hard to be overcome. He battles with phantasms, real for him but mere dreams for the student who has been brough= t up under other influences. When, therefore, he is told to rise above the body, to conquer it, to subdu= e his passions, his vanity, anger and ambition, he asks, "what if borne down by this environment, which I was involuntarily born into, I shall fail?"=20 Then when told that he must fight or die in the struggle, he may reply that the doctrine of Karma is cold and cruel because it holds him responsible fo= r the consequences which appear to be the result of that unsought environment= . It then becomes with him a question whether to fight and die, or to swim on with the current careless as to its conclusion but happy if perhaps it shal= l carry him into smooth water whose shores are elysian. Or perhaps he is a student of occultism whose ambition has been fired by th= e prospect of adeptship, of attaining powers over nature, or what not. Beginning the struggle he presently finds himself beset with difficulties which, not long after, he is convinced are solely the result of his environment.=20 In his heart he says that Karma has unkindly put him where he must constantly work for a living for himself and a family: or he has a life lon= g partner whose attitude is such that he is sure were he away from her he could progress: until at last he calls upon heaven to interpose and change the surroundings so opposed to his perfecting himself. This man has indeed erred worse than the first. He has wrongly supposed tha= t his environment was a thing to be hated and spurned away. Without distinctl= y so saying to himself, he has nursed within the recesses of his being the idea that he like Buddha could in this one life triumph over all the implacable forces and powers that bar the way to Nirvana.=20 We should remember that the Buddha does not come every day but is the efflorescence of ages, who when the time is ripe surely appears in one plac= e and in one body, not to work for his own advancement but for the salvation of the world. What then of environment and what of its power over us? Is environment Karma or is it Reincarnation? The LAW is Karma, reincarnatio= n is only an incident. It is one of the means which The Law uses to bring us at last to the true light. The wheel of rebirths is turned over and over again by us in obedience to this law, so that we may at last come to place our entire reliance upon Karma. Nor is our environment Karma itself, for Karma is the subtle power which works in that environment. There is nothing but the SELF--using the word as Max M=FCller does to designate the Supreme Soul and its environment. The Aryans for the latter use the word Kosams or sheaths. So that there is only this Self and the various sheaths by which it is clothed, beginning with the most intangible and coming down to the body, while outside of that and common to all is wha= t is commonly known as environment, whereas the word should be held to includ= e all that is not The Self. How unphilosophical therefore it is to quarrel with our surroundings, and t= o desire to escape them? We only escape one kind to immediately fall into another.=20 And even did we come into the society of the wisest devotees we would still carry the environment of the Self in our own bodies, which will always be our enemy so long as we do not know what it is in all its smallest details.= =20 Coming down then to the particular person, it is plain that that part of th= e environment which consists in the circumstances of life and personal surroundings is only an incident, and that the real environment to be understood and cared about is that in which Karma itself inheres in us. Thus we see that it is a mistake to say as we often hear it said--"If he only had a fair chance; if his surroundings were more favorable he would do better," since he really could not be in any other circumstances at that time, for if he were it would not be he but some one else.=20 It must be necessary for him to pass through those identical trials and disadvantages to perfect the Self; and it is only because we see but an infinitesimal part of the long series that any apparent confusion or difficulty arises.=20 So our strife will be, not to escape from anything, but to realize that these Kosams, or sheaths, are an integral portion of ourselves, which we must fully understand before we can change the abhorred surroundings. This is done by acknowledging the unity of spirit, by knowing that everything, good and bad alike, is the Supreme. We then come into harmony with the Supreme Soul, with the whole universe, and no environment is detrimental. The very first step is to rise from considering the mere outside delusive environment, knowing it to be the result of past lives, the fruition of Karma done, and say with Uddalaka in speaking to his son: "All this Universe has the Deity for its life.=20 That Deity is the Truth.=20 He is the Universal soul.=20 He Thou art, O Svetaketu!" HADJI ERINN Path, February, 1887 =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Hope this helps, Dallas =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D -----Original Message----- From: Zakk=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 10:10 PM To:=20 Subject: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and reincarnation Thoughts on organ donations and effects : Traits : It has been said and observed that an individual who has received a donated organ may gain a new trait. To go beyond only perceiving traits as an effect from an organ may open a wider=20 spectrum of thought and greater insight. A main avenue of=20 developing traits is by association. Whether it be from family=20 members, friends, school mates, or business interaction with other individuals. Traits can be effected by heavenly bodies, such as the full moon or astrological signs. Traits can also be effected by the intake of food. Certain foods are related to certain traits. It has been observed that a diet change can effect=20 the traits in an individual. Traits can alter due to a menstrual=20 cycle, menopause ( males also experience this although it is=20 referred by another term), or pregnancy.. Drugs can effect traits.=20 An injury or bodily change can effect an individual's traits. How=20 one responds or reacts to the enviroment one is experiencing is=20 a deciding factor whether a personal trait is altered or retained.=20 The changing of traits is a natural occurence.=20=20 To fear a change of traits due to an organ transplant can be=20 viewed as the same as to fear a change of traits due to=20 associating with a family member or school mates. To not have a transplant due to that fear can be viewed as not associating with family or friends due the fear of a possible trait change.=20 Or not drive a car due to a possible accident which may result=20 in a change of traits. There are many possibilities which one encounters in life which may change a trait. To not fear and accept life's events with a positive attitude seems to be a path that would have optimal results, whether it be an organ transplant or a drive in the country.=20 Karma : What is karma based on? What generates karma?=20 There is karma and karma attachment. These are two different issues. Karma is impersonal. This would mean no predjudices.=20 To think clearly and have clarity on what karma entails can=20 result in fuller understandings of karma itself. A manner in which karma is percieved by some is a law of action and reaction or law of merit and demerit. In the Key To Theosophy it states the=20 following : " Karma neither punishes nor rewards; it is simply the one Universal=20 LAW which guides unerringly and, so to say, blindly, all other laws=20 productive of certain effects along the grooves of their respective=20 causations." It also states : "Karma is that unseen and unknown law which adjusts wisely,=20 intelligently and equitably each effect to its cause, tracing the=20 latter back to its producer. Though itself unknowable, its action=20 is perceivable." In taking into consideration the comments given in the Key To=20 Theosophy, it would seem to be an unjustifiable reason to not accept=20 a transplant due to any karmic reasons in regards to the previous=20 body or individual in which the organ resided. The organ does not=20 generate your karma, you do. Nor is karma passed on from one=20 individual to another through an organ / blood. Karmic consequences are not based on physical objects, but by personal choices and actions thereof. Impressions : Impression are made upon matter. In regards to the matter that consists of a human body, it is not only the individual occupying the body that leaves impressions upon it. Whether it be the outer skin or the inner organs, it is subjected to the impressions made by other individuals. This includes the atomic level. Being=20 within the aura or energy field of another individual will leave=20 impressions on the matter that your body consists of. It is not the impressions that generate karmic consequences but the cause of those impressions. The effect of an organ changing owners is similar to the effect of a shirt changing owners. The effect is=20 physical, perhaps mental or emotional, but not karmic. A body is=20 a raiment of an individual. This raiment is utilized by other life forms when an individual passes out of the body when an incarnation ends. Whether one chooses to have a portion of the raiment utilized by another life form when still incarnated is a personal choice.=20=20 Brotherhood : What is the definition of brotherhood? What are the acts of brotherhood? Is the human race all one? If one was=20 to perceive all as one, what would be the thoughts on sharing parts of the one? To say all is one, and to act as all is one, can be seen as being different. How does unification occur? How is=20 separateness maintained? What path is being chosen and followed? The answers to some questions can be difficult to discern and be applied as well.=20 =20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20 From mhart@idirect.ca Sat Dec 25 16:37:43 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15012 invoked from network); 26 Dec 2004 00:37:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Dec 2004 00:37:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.122) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Dec 2004 00:37:43 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.89] (helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CiMPl-0003A2-8F for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 00:37:41 +0000 Message-ID: <41CE0891.5030308@idirect.ca> Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 19:40:49 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on omega.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.122 From: Mauri Subject: re religions and Theosophy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Anand wrote, in part: <> Okay, but seems to me that the definition-in-practice (as opposed to some more static or dictionary definition) of the word "study" in that context---where what might be called "Theosophical studies" are contrasted with studies about religions, especially of the orthodox variety---would often tend to be keyish. Is keyish as I tend to see it. At any rate I tend to be generally somewhat disinterested in applying formal or traditional study methods towards religions in general, possibly feeling intuitively (I'm speculating or intuiting, I think ...) that some orthodox elements (especially some orthodox elements) in religious views (unlike in Theosophy) might be somewhat counter to certain key principles to be found in Theosophy. Not that one might not find basics of some sort, in some sense, that might seem as "compatible enough," in some sense, maybe, between even orthodox religious elements and Theosophy ... But ... Is there a "but" there ... Not that "brotherhood" doesn't make sense to me. But how far can one go down some "brotherhood road" (in the name of some religion, Theosophy or whatever) before feeling that one has gone too far, in some sense, maybe ... I wonder. I suspect that those kinds of concerns generally tend to be highly individual in bottom-line terms, and that that's why in Theosophy there's an emphasis on individual efforts, taking into account individual karma. Mauri ^:-/ ... PS that's my symbol for a speculative guy who thought he might've had something important enough to say, but wound up scratching his head. Sorry about that. From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sat Dec 25 16:54:50 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 36008 invoked from network); 26 Dec 2004 00:54:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Dec 2004 00:54:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.73) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Dec 2004 00:54:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 81151 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Dec 2004 00:54:50 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=zdeFhlAVfkLNwkeE9cSUEy2qWwxJQo3DA4+PSIj+Yd+vQeZf0QjXTKfUXAGBr3gMJc7HNgm7oGK2CGFuRkigWDzDZJ8aQ52Yl/8a3gggzoRWEtM5IfEJRUfu/938z4e1C2Xh8YIuhzTlKRRAZ9BW2fSODA+JH0nuzOntQUlbEMc= ; Message-ID: <20041226005450.81149.qmail@web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 16:54:50 PST Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 16:54:50 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <12f.533715fe.2efe34e7@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.73 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World How fractal evolution works - part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SO IS SPINERGY, KARMA IN ACTION? Cass =20 2) Karma is the adjustment of effects flowing from causes, during=20 which the being upon whom and through whom that adjustment is effected=20 experiences pain or pleasure. =20 (3) Karma is an undeviating and unerring tendency in the Universe to=20 restore equilibrium, and it operates incessantly. =20 (4) The apparent stoppage of this restoration to equilibrium is due to=20 the necessary adjustment of disturbance at some other spot, place, or focus= which is visible only to the Yogi, to the Sage, or the perfect Seer: there= is therefore no stoppage, but only a hiding from view. =20 (5) Karma operates on all things and beings from the minutest=20 conceivable atom to Brahma. Proceeding in the three worlds men, gods, and t= he elementalbeings, no spot in the manifested universe is exempt from its s= way. =20 (6) Karma is not subject to time, and therefore he who knows what is=20 the ultimate division of time in this Universe knows Karma. =20 (7) For all other men Karma is in its essential nature unknown and unknowable. =20 (8) But its action may be known by calculation from cause to effect;=20 and this calculation is possible because the effect is wrapped up in and is= not succedent to the cause. =20 (9) The Karma of this earth is the combination of the acts and thoughts=20 of all beings of every grade which were concerned in the preceding=20 Manvantara or evolutionary stream from which ours flows. Because the Karma of this earth and its races began in a past too=20 Far back for human minds to reach, an inquiry into its beginning is useless= and profitless. =20 (12) Karmic causes already set in motion must be allowed to sweep on=20 until exhausted, but this permits no man to refuse to help his fellows and = every sentient being. =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! =96 Try it today!=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sat Dec 25 17:14:44 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 55449 invoked from network); 26 Dec 2004 01:14:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Dec 2004 01:14:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.75) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Dec 2004 01:14:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 96968 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Dec 2004 01:14:44 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=tSrO3NRrvrgmSOLhA26NRvSp+LVuWQZJHHRw7CWQIXI2VHotebdKJgKImusnAySXzukoc+IG4LW2KBKyfSh7jJ1Cf55YpjVl3nNtCz/A1Y1zX45RASg8CEL8y6hcvUdWsP960J49BX0JN7OPSuTmHW/00R6NM9iweIDgAT50GeE= ; Message-ID: <20041226011444.96966.qmail@web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 17:14:44 PST Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 17:14:44 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <12f.533715fe.2efe34e7@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.75 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World How fractal evolution works - part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Leon If you are wondering where I am coming from, it is NOT THAT "IT" CAN KNOW "ITSELF" - MANIFESTATION - THE CAUSE BUT THAT "ITSELF" CAN KNOW "IT" - THE EFFECTS OF MANIFESTION Cass leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: Mauri, thanks for the good wishes. But, even if I am beating my head against a wall, maybe someday a few eager accredited scientists with theosophical leanings might pick up the ABC ideas and incorporate them into their radically new theories -- to come up with a respectable and provable "Unified Field Theory of Everything" that might shake up the rest of them. Then, perhaps, they could start collaborating on building that "pyramid" of theosophically linked scientific ideas that might wake up the rest of the world. In the meantime, all I can do is keep on promulgating the ABC ideas wherever and however the opportunities appear. Recently, I've been contacted by some interested scientists and engineers who are beginning to see some light at the end of the tunnel. They apparently think that my combining of the source of consciousness with that of physical matter, and the conjoining of subject with object, linking mind to brain and awareness to will or intent, is just what's missing in their respective theories. As we begin to combine our various directions of thought, we'll see what the future brings. In the interim, I'll keep on plugging away through the various scientific and theosophical forums -- with the hope that some more thinkers and doers might start throwing their two cents in, and giving us wall bangers a hand with some useful ideas. :-) Best wishes, Leonardo In a message dated 12/17/04 1:21:10 PM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote, in part: >> How fractal evolution works... >> This won't occur until scientists realize that consciousness (as awareness >> and will or intent) is a universal aspect of fundamental reality related to the >> zero-point itself... That is everywhere (contiguous on the highest level of >> zero-point energy) and is the central origin of all fields of force... While being >> the basis of the so called "entanglement" or "action at a distance" between >> fundamental quantum particles on any level. With this ultimate understanding >> they will also be able to synthesize information theory with relativity and >> quantum theories, along with recent theories of Aether physics, plasma >> electrodynamics, holographic paradigm, etc., and come up with an entirely >> new and synthetic scientific (physics, biology, cosmology, physiology, etc.) >> paradigm. When all this is accomplished, science will be able to finally merge >> with religion... And, the rest of Mankind can go about learning these fundamental >> truths, absorbing them (along with the eternality of spirit or self, and the unity >> and connectedness of all that they imply) into their souls, and cleaning up >> its act (that is now driving the world toward it ultimate destruction). >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Leon Maurer >> http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics > >Leon, those kinds of efforts remind me >of the efforts of those "gods" like >Osiris during the "First Time" (Zep >Tepi) in ancient Egypt. So maybe if you >were to build a few impressive pyramids > or some kind of equally impressive >things, as well, would that help to >impressive the natives that more is >going on than meets the average native >eye ... ? Not that your ABC's might not >necessarily be seen as impressive >enough, maybe, in some sense, maybe ... >but then if your ABC's get the same kind >of interpretive treatment that the >pyramids have had from orthodox >Egyptologists, well ... ^:-/ ... > >Good Luck, anyway. >Mauri > >PS Been reading Hancocks FINGERPRINTS >OF THE GODS, lately. Fascinating. Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mhart@idirect.ca Sat Dec 25 21:09:09 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 29184 invoked from network); 26 Dec 2004 05:09:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Dec 2004 05:09:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.122) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Dec 2004 05:09:08 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.184] (helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CiQeM-0001ca-RQ for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 05:09:03 +0000 Message-ID: <41CE482A.4090506@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 00:12:10 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on phi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.122 From: Mauri Subject: re karma, Theosophy, exoteric versions and ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Somebody wrote: <<2) Karma is the adjustment of effects flowing from causes, during which the being upon whom and through whom that adjustment is effected experiences pain or pleasure.>> I don't see how the defining of the word "karma" can escape interpretation (or what might be generally "understood" as "interpretation," at any rate ...), and if all "interpretations" are also seen as "karmic," then wouldn't that kind of defining seem kind of mayavic and kind of like an "exoteric version," basically, among other things ... In other words, as I tend to see it, inasmuchas the "reading between the lines" of "exoteric versions" is basically "interpretive," or seen as dependent on "karmic influences" ("influences" that might be seen to have an "interpretive aspect" ...) ... where does that leave the average student of Theosophy ... Seems to me that Theosophy in general is a medium that might tend to foster all kinds of opinions and interpretations inasmuchas it's seen basically and primarily as an "exoteric version." But possibly most students of Theosophy don't see themselves as making 100% literal interpretations ... And I wonder if humans in general might have some aspect to their make-up that might at least influence them in ways that might be seen as transcending literal/exoteric versions and interpretions, as by way of "intuitive promptings," eg. I tend to suspect that the latter ("tanscending aspect") might have some truth to it, and that HPB and the Masters were trying to appeal to that aspect, trait or sensitivity (ie, while being, or being seen/interpreted as constrained to "exoteric versions by karma"). Speculatively, Mauri From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Dec 26 08:49:22 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62021 invoked from network); 26 Dec 2004 16:48:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Dec 2004 16:48:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40906.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.203) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Dec 2004 16:48:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 80842 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Dec 2004 16:48:48 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=QtGvj6bmGAbcHA8ikmSol39uGzEFfBCBpnHibzGgndhZtv6jt+eYg672usTDokhQoDPM5HAWV8gIw0sHlEtDgwzSYHkuE5STxGq53rkJQo3w4FOFMDdcU8X0BGC6n33VCxf5s5h6XwL7gkm+Jivun4jMCgydTLJDYzfbE01ho/o= ; Message-ID: <20041226164848.80840.qmail@web40906.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40906.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 08:48:48 PST Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 08:48:48 -0800 (PST) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.78.203 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: The Planet Spins in the Great Void . . . .and Where Are They Now? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As the new year 2005 approaches, each of us might pause and deeply ponder on the following: The Planet Spins in the Great Void . . . . http://blavatskyarchives.com/planetspins.htm Where Are They Now? http://blavatskyarchives.com/death.htm Daniel http://hpb.cc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Dec 26 09:04:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 8840 invoked from network); 26 Dec 2004 17:04:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Dec 2004 17:04:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40914.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.211) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Dec 2004 17:04:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 25548 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Dec 2004 17:04:57 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=rWMl0uYOEOUfOj6Nt/PUIt8SNMuuDTF7iIdFrg38rtBQnABTsSCtjqn8CwXlCn82u7h/GmD5uz2QilSKNUu7mVqadTh5oBHMMICL0+MqyoM7uo3KkoEHAvh/F8j8d1XcjFFxpT1MkfzM6qtRsQYuEqV2JYUJTjs3QEuVCC9ssBU= ; Message-ID: <20041226170457.25546.qmail@web40914.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40914.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:04:57 PST Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:04:57 -0800 (PST) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.78.211 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Who Will Answer? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Who Will Answer? A song made popular in 1967 in the USA by Ed Ames Hallelujah! Hallelujah!, Hallelujah! >From the canyons of the mind, We wander on and stumble blindly Through the often-tangled maze Of starless nights and sunless days, While asking for some kind of clue Or road to lead us to the truth, But who will answer? Side by side two people stand, Together vowing, hand-in-hand That love's imbedded in their hearts, But soon an empty feeling starts To overwhelm their hollow lives, And when they seek the hows and whys, Who will answer? On a strange and distant hill, A young man's lying very still. His arms will never hold his child, Because a bullet running wild Has struck him down. And now we cry, "Dear God, Oh, why, oh, why?" But who will answer? High upon a lonely ledge, a figure teeters near the edge, And jeering crowds collect below To egg him on with, "Go, man, go!" But who will ask what led him To his private day of doom, And who will answer? If the soul is darkened By a fear it cannot name, If the mind is baffled When the rules don't fit the game, Who will answer? Who will answer? Who will answer? Hallelujah! Hallelujah!, Hallelujah! In the rooms of dark and shades, The scent of sandalwood pervades. The colored thoughts in muddled heads Reclining in the rumpled beds Of unmade dreams that can't come true, And when we ask what we should do, Who... Who will answer? 'Neath the spreading mushroom tree, The world revolves in apathy As overhead, a row of specks Roars on, drowned out by discotheques, And if a secret button's pressed Because one man has been outguessed, Who will answer? Is our hope in walnut shells Worn 'round the neck with temple bells, Or deep within some cloistered walls Where hooded figures pray in halls? Or crumbled books on dusty shelves, Or in our stars, or in ourselves, Who will answer? If the soul is darkened By a fear it cannot name, If the mind is baffled When the rules don't fit the game, Who will answer? Who will answer? Who will answer? Hallelujah! Hallelujah!, Hallelujah! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Dec 26 09:29:56 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 38139 invoked from network); 26 Dec 2004 17:29:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Dec 2004 17:29:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40904.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.201) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Dec 2004 17:29:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 62525 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Dec 2004 17:29:53 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=cAd2n7aWagCrKfwZ3FID9LUhT7dbGcJqVgaVaAINLldFbsJ2yZQ5lFsq9Sg5Uedw5r6fYtAkUbnG2K+bCgNRvyuhzPVpyk+KtmtiNxVjMBFSAx70ycTJ1b8h04qJPNoqGQ/A9zHnRVUdYdinVsG0C0qXnthpZdhgqUmW9lEmTcQ= ; Message-ID: <20041226172953.62523.qmail@web40904.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40904.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:29:53 PST Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:29:53 -0800 (PST) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.78.201 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: The Classics of Modern Theosophy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Classics of Modern Theosophy See: http://secretdoctrine.net/ http://isisunveiled.net/ http://keytotheosophy.net/ http://voiceofthesilence.net/ http://mahatmaletters.net/ For more online resources, see: http://theosophyonthe.net/ http://theosophylinks.net/ http://blavatskyarchives.com Daniel BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER http://blavatskystudycenter.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ringding777@t-online.de Sun Dec 26 13:07:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding777@t-online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35782 invoked from network); 26 Dec 2004 21:07:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Dec 2004 21:07:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout09.sul.t-online.com) (194.25.134.84) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Dec 2004 21:07:35 -0000 Received: from fwd10.aul.t-online.de by mailout09.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1Cifby-0004GP-00; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:07:34 +0100 Received: from captainfb78633 (Z2RstmZLZeXsFoTUcQXe007uk-uSWIBpJVFZ0ev1HHLMdBCU-Ra5gK@[217.86.132.216]) by fwd10.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1Cifbr-0ePugy0; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:07:27 +0100 Message-ID: <02c901c4eb8f$594bd850$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> To: References: Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:10:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ID: Z2RstmZLZeXsFoTUcQXe007uk-uSWIBpJVFZ0ev1HHLMdBCU-Ra5gK X-TOI-MSGID: 71408ba0-fd08-4abd-9b12-b72e0c9b74b5 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 194.25.134.84 X-eGroups-From: ringding777@t-online.de (Frank Reitemeyer) From: ringding777@t-online.de Subject: Re: Theos-World Anand's Censoring X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=190924709 X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Daniel, what do you expect from such anti-theosophical fanatics? Adyar will also NOT allow to investigate the Judge letters which are stored in the HQ archives. They wait until they get rotten as both Joy Mills and a known Hungarian member confirmed. They do not want the truth. That's the reason why HPB and Masters never returned to Adyar after they were kicked out there in 1885. Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 5:50 PM Subject: Theos-World Anand's Censoring Readers should know that Anand censors material such as that found in my posting at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/19605 Anand will NOT allow the posting of such emails on his Yahoo! group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Theosophical/ Of course, Anand is free to run his group the way he chooses to but one might ask why his policy differs from the very policy encouraged by Madame Blavatsky herself. She wrote: "Open your columns to free and fearless discussion. . . LUCIFER is . . . prepared to publish any inimical contributions (couched, of course, in decent language), however much at variance with . . . theosophical views . . . [and] is determined to give a fair hearing in any and every case, to both contending parties and allow things and thoughts to be judged on their respective merits. For why, or what should one dread when fact and truth are one's only aim?" Daniel http://blavatskystudycenter.org Yahoo! Groups Links From ringding777@t-online.de Sun Dec 26 14:11:29 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding777@t-online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14850 invoked from network); 26 Dec 2004 22:11:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Dec 2004 22:11:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout06.sul.t-online.com) (194.25.134.19) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Dec 2004 22:11:27 -0000 Received: from fwd10.aul.t-online.de by mailout06.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1Cigbn-0001PE-00; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:11:27 +0100 Received: from captainfb78633 (EX1t6qZ-welj5xShKJOnrBH8ZYvIvpoeNMDpsNKOqowYcfvaKl+gsM@[217.86.132.216]) by fwd10.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1Cigba-1hA6ds0; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:11:14 +0100 Message-ID: <03c501c4eb98$4296ec40$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> To: References: Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:14:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ID: EX1t6qZ-welj5xShKJOnrBH8ZYvIvpoeNMDpsNKOqowYcfvaKl+gsM X-TOI-MSGID: d1f427a7-d340-4c3e-ad94-aae983338497 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 194.25.134.19 X-eGroups-From: ringding777@t-online.de (Frank Reitemeyer) From: ringding777@t-online.de Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Judge "even higher than" Blavatsky?? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=190924709 X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Hi Pasender, if your logic is true, then HPB was also in error to point to the errors of the priests and scientists. Why not ignore churches and sciences? The reason why Adyar members tend to ignore debates is not that they are already holy ones (at least they pose so), but that they received so much brainwashing during the years that they cannot think anymore for themselves, because it is the open Adyar policy to destroy the thinking man as an E.S. initiate revealed to me. To speak it out more easy: They are too stupid (or have been made stupid) to follow a logical discourse as students in this list offer. Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "pasender" To: Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 10:54 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: Judge "even higher than" Blavatsky?? Hi fnord! I agree with you about the defences (and then, attacks) of the "leaders". In fact, the Adyar TS has the attitude of no entering in that game... If you see Adyar's book you couldn't find almost anyone in order to defend or attack anyone, and most of the Adyar TS members that I know from various countries, are not concerned in defences and attacks. If you read carefully my last message, this was not an attempt to defend Annie Besant or any, but shows the irrelevance of it. Obviously the people have mistakes, because all human beings are fallible, and I don't want cover it. But what do we have to do with this? The past in not here, and we never will know the pure facts. How can we know if declarations of Wadia and so on are true? I know false statements made about, for example, Leadbeater (I have documented on it) and then all this kind of matter is very much subjective. We must work for humanity in our level, and see if the movement of we are a part is now working rightly. When you want to validate a movement through its past, there are some wrong in it. The present work is the important thing. But in the theosophical movement (which is a pity) there are some people or organizations that waste very much energy in attack to the other, may be for the psychological need (I don't know) of validates his movement. From my point of view the only validation is the unselfish work for humanity, don't you? Best wishes p --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "fnord" wrote: > Pablo, > > in a biography of BP Wadia by Dallas Tenbroeck: > > After several heart to heart conversations in 1920-21 with > Mrs. Annie Besant on his return to India and Adyar, B.P. Wadia found that while she admitted to him in private that what had then been done against Mr. Judge and the "Theosophical Society in America," 25 years back, was wrong, she refused to make a public retraction and restore Judge's fair name in Theosophical publications and elsewhere. > > And there are many sources alike, for example Alice > Leighton Cleater. It's near from stupid i think to go on and on with this subjects: she herself admited it, and contradict herself one more time, that's it! What's the thing about defending her? She was not an arhat, not an initiate, everything in her lifes proves it; but in the middle of all the miss, she did a great job, a very great job in some fields. But there's no need to defend, when she abused power more then once, and so on, so on. > > I don't think the TS must be excesivly atacked, but it > must admit their flaws and mistakes, not to defend every action of her past 'leaders', no matter how wrong they were. There's no need for misionary work, i think. > > My english is preety bad too, i guess, and i'm sorry. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Dec 26 14:29:58 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22888 invoked from network); 26 Dec 2004 22:29:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Dec 2004 22:29:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.69) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Dec 2004 22:29:58 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cigth-0000Rn-Vd for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:29:58 -0500 Message-ID: <41CF3B6A.9030307@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:30:02 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <03c501c4eb98$4296ec40$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> In-Reply-To: <03c501c4eb98$4296ec40$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbae46f0f4560ba1b56c7426fd671316b1393caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.69 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Judge "even higher than" Blavatsky?? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 ringding777@t-online.de wrote: > To speak it out more easy: They are too stupid (or have been > made stupid) to follow a logical discourse as students in > this list offer. Note the email name Frank uses to write this. Bart From ringding777@t-online.de Sun Dec 26 14:40:10 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding777@t-online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 43656 invoked from network); 26 Dec 2004 22:40:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Dec 2004 22:40:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout01.sul.t-online.com) (194.25.134.80) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Dec 2004 22:40:10 -0000 Received: from fwd10.aul.t-online.de by mailout01.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1Cih3Z-0002n2-02; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:40:09 +0100 Received: from captainfb78633 (EAGXYqZCre+BmKYl189hd2FNPLMTmlal6jMvv+CvR6CEEBNrJqJoZq@[217.86.132.216]) by fwd10.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1Cih3N-1cbQMi0; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:39:57 +0100 Message-ID: <04a301c4eb9c$463f8510$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> To: References: <03c501c4eb98$4296ec40$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> <41CF3B6A.9030307@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:43:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ID: EAGXYqZCre+BmKYl189hd2FNPLMTmlal6jMvv+CvR6CEEBNrJqJoZq X-TOI-MSGID: 385609f3-690a-41d6-9336-6e353d02ffa4 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 194.25.134.80 X-eGroups-From: ringding777@t-online.de (Frank Reitemeyer) From: ringding777@t-online.de Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Judge "even higher than" Blavatsky?? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=190924709 X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer >Note the email name Frank uses to write this. Bart, do you want to say that only a Frank can speak out frankly? From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Sun Dec 26 14:45:11 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 95396 invoked from network); 26 Dec 2004 22:45:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Dec 2004 22:45:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.45) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Dec 2004 22:45:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n16.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Dec 2004 22:45:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.112] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Dec 2004 22:45:10 -0000 Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:44:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 162 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.45 From: "Anand Gholap" X-Originating-IP: 61.1.105.177 Subject: Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: anand_gholap_1 It can be easily observed that many members of Judge Society spend half the time in criticizing leaders of Adyar TS. Is this what Judge taught ? Anand Gholap From ringding777@t-online.de Sun Dec 26 14:54:51 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding777@t-online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12545 invoked from network); 26 Dec 2004 22:54:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Dec 2004 22:54:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout02.sul.t-online.com) (194.25.134.17) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Dec 2004 22:54:50 -0000 Received: from fwd10.aul.t-online.de by mailout02.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CihHl-0008Jl-00; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:54:49 +0100 Received: from captainfb78633 (r1eH9BZYresvqAyTVzf0ciRlUfbuxxA17c3lXNeZVVVQ+UcmShvXwi@[217.86.132.216]) by fwd10.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CihHe-0E9k6y0; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:54:42 +0100 Message-ID: <04bd01c4eb9e$5548a1c0$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> To: References: Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:57:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ID: r1eH9BZYresvqAyTVzf0ciRlUfbuxxA17c3lXNeZVVVQ+UcmShvXwi X-TOI-MSGID: 92df6fc7-7ac7-42cc-8640-366227d84e5f X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 194.25.134.17 X-eGroups-From: ringding777@t-online.de (Frank Reitemeyer) From: ringding777@t-online.de Subject: Re: Theos-World Judge "even higher than" Blavatsky?? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=190924709 X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Hello Pasender, if Radha Burnier told you this, than she lies of course. There is no theosophical work more important than to verify the Judge case as the slanders Besant made on Judge's reputation were leading to the biggest thread from within so far. Judge wrote three letters to his pupil Besant when she began her black magic activities (sawing off HSO, sawing off Judge, black letters etc.) and she received from her teacher three definitely WARNINGS to cut off the black magic influence. That Adyar since 110 years after these letters were written has more important work to do (which exactly?) does not convince any truth seeker. That means that Adyar has become a new jewish-jesuitic Rome! Note that they use terms like "theosophy", "spiritual" in quite the opposite way as HPb used the words! That means to understand the satanic Adyar gang you must not stick on words, which is their trick to fool good humans! You must always look behind the curtain and you must never allow your emotions to be above your thinking! They hate thinking people! The conspiracy is much more serious than an idealist dreams of! Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "pasender" To: Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 6:53 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Judge "even higher than" Blavatsky?? Hello Frak! ringding777@t... wrote: > Why did they never found the courage the last decades to > publish them? > Even the 1900 letter was partly published by Adyar. Does > that mean the content of Judge's letter is more delicate? I think that you are talking about some letters that exists in Adyar related to Judge and Besant. In her last visit to Argentina (April 2004), Radha Burnier told me that in Adyar exist a pile of letters about "Judge's case" that shows the righteous of Besant's attitude. "Unfortunately -said me Radha- there are a lot of theosophical work to do and there are no time for compile and edit this material. But someone will must do it in some time". Theosophical Society of Adyar works in order to promote a spiritual regeneration in humanity, and usually sees all this kinds of things (conflicts, defences, attacks) as a waste of time. This is actually the motive for the non publication of these letters, and there aren't other imagined reasons... Dear Frank, as I can see through your messages, you have a strong tendency to see "black forces" and "dark reasons" in everything that is not your own point of view. Much of your accusations to Adyar T.S. are fantasies of people that imagine and speculate, but don't actually know, in which sense works the Adyar T.S. In order to equilibrate your conceptions (which is the aspiration of all theosophist), I think that could be a good thing that you earnestly know the Adyar TS (in a wide spectrum, not only a Lodge in a city), met friendly with the members, know and getting in contact with the human beings that they are (in fact, they are your brothers) and see in a direct form their aspirations, sacrifices for the cause of Mahatmas, etc. Probably you discover that all of us are simply human beings in the search of truth, nor so much good nor so much bad, as being in control of dugpas. You can be in disaccord with some points of view, etc. But you will be able to see in a compassionate and non-fanatic form the other people. Sorry if I'm harsh in my expression... but remember that I don't know very much English... With warm regards p Yahoo! Groups Links From ringding777@t-online.de Sun Dec 26 14:57:41 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding777@t-online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 37257 invoked from network); 26 Dec 2004 22:57:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Dec 2004 22:57:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout10.sul.t-online.com) (194.25.134.21) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Dec 2004 22:57:41 -0000 Received: from fwd10.aul.t-online.de by mailout10.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CihKW-00087U-00; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:57:40 +0100 Received: from captainfb78633 (bpkeRmZdreoc1ogRY2uErF-AekyCi-q9c9Po+-W5F02TtjU0EIHkw4@[217.86.132.216]) by fwd10.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CihKM-0pZlk80; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:57:30 +0100 Message-ID: <04c401c4eb9e$b98a5f70$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> To: References: Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 00:00:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ID: bpkeRmZdreoc1ogRY2uErF-AekyCi-q9c9Po+-W5F02TtjU0EIHkw4 X-TOI-MSGID: 3c90dfcf-2bfa-448d-98a6-34944c36b11d X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 194.25.134.21 X-eGroups-From: ringding777@t-online.de (Frank Reitemeyer) From: ringding777@t-online.de Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=190924709 X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Judge taught that your black magicians from the jesuitic Adyar gang have to put a stop. Censor, hypocrisy, cant, lies - is that what your satanists Besant and Leadbeater taught you? What has a person like you to do in this list? Cancel your membership on theos-talk! Frank From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Sun Dec 26 15:03:22 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 21978 invoked from network); 26 Dec 2004 23:03:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Dec 2004 23:03:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Dec 2004 23:03:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Dec 2004 23:03:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.173] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Dec 2004 23:03:21 -0000 Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:03:08 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <04c401c4eb9e$b98a5f70$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 72 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.38 From: "Anand Gholap" X-Originating-IP: 61.1.105.177 Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: anand_gholap_1 It is a mystery why these members are filled with hatred. Anand Gholap From ringding777@t-online.de Sun Dec 26 15:14:31 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding777@t-online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35056 invoked from network); 26 Dec 2004 23:14:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Dec 2004 23:14:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout05.sul.t-online.com) (194.25.134.82) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Dec 2004 23:14:30 -0000 Received: from fwd10.aul.t-online.de by mailout05.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1Cihao-0005eO-00; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 00:14:30 +0100 Received: from captainfb78633 (r36qArZb8eGug6KMaGjzeAEfgcnBswvPBBPL0aEKKhMsoZ4MNu03o1@[217.86.132.216]) by fwd10.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1Cihae-22s92m0; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 00:14:20 +0100 Message-ID: <04d101c4eba1$13a8d430$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> To: References: Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 00:17:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ID: r36qArZb8eGug6KMaGjzeAEfgcnBswvPBBPL0aEKKhMsoZ4MNu03o1 X-TOI-MSGID: 0896d065-2420-4956-91ce-0552e25bf2d8 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 194.25.134.82 X-eGroups-From: ringding777@t-online.de (Frank Reitemeyer) From: ringding777@t-online.de Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=190924709 X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer It is only a mystery for guys like you, but not a mystery to Blavatsky students. Every time a black magician is confronted with truth he/she projects the truth to hatred. But you only look into the mirror and see your own hatred. When Besant was confronted with the truth by Katherine Tingley she also had no other explanation. It is not for that reason that twisted persons exists within the TM what makes it dangerous, but they become dangerous when they get influence to hypnotize innocents down to their own subhuman psychic level, which is quite the opposite of spirituality. For that reason the parent Society under Judge declared its autonomy in 1895. You have the character of Besant and KPJ combined. Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anand Gholap" To: Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 12:03 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Judge teach hatred ? It is a mystery why these members are filled with hatred. Anand Gholap From ringding777@t-online.de Sun Dec 26 15:36:32 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding777@t-online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51935 invoked from network); 26 Dec 2004 23:36:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Dec 2004 23:36:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout10.sul.t-online.com) (194.25.134.21) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Dec 2004 23:36:31 -0000 Received: from fwd10.aul.t-online.de by mailout10.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1Cihw7-0001h3-00; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 00:36:31 +0100 Received: from captainfb78633 (bpkeogZGoeL0KbPgBQEhF7bVHbUwzFVyoJyhtdwGe-ZRXgWj-oTnY1@[217.86.132.216]) by fwd10.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1Cihvv-1BQ3c00; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 00:36:19 +0100 Message-ID: <051701c4eba4$25c2bde0$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> To: References: <20041008095544.78175.qmail@web52307.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 00:39:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ID: bpkeogZGoeL0KbPgBQEhF7bVHbUwzFVyoJyhtdwGe-ZRXgWj-oTnY1 X-TOI-MSGID: ca5e8db3-1936-4b68-ad2f-38172a5c249f X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 194.25.134.21 X-eGroups-From: ringding777@t-online.de (Frank Reitemeyer) From: ringding777@t-online.de Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Besant's unconscious confession of the Masters words on the split X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=190924709 X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Hello Pablo, you should consult a good english dictionary (which I also do, as english is my second language, too) and re-read the 1900 letter again. Perhaps you will come to other conclusions. She managed her so-called "ES" in quite the opposite of what the Master demanded. Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pablo Sender" To: Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 10:55 AM Subject: Theos-World RE: Besant's unconscious confession of the Masters words on the split Hello Frank My mother lenguage is not the English so, sorry for my writting. I have a question. You say about Besant: "...some defect in their own nature makes them hindrances [as stated in the 1900 K.H. letter to her]" But in this letter K.H. give her some advises about the EST. I wonder if it is not a validation for the "Besant's EST"? Best Wishes Pablo Correo Yahoo! - 6 MB, tecnología antispam ¡gratis! Suscribite ya http://correo.yahoo.com.ar/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links From ringding777@t-online.de Sun Dec 26 16:14:27 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding777@t-online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 39698 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 00:13:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 00:13:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout02.sul.t-online.com) (194.25.134.17) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 00:13:52 -0000 Received: from fwd10.aul.t-online.de by mailout02.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CiiWF-0008B8-00; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 01:13:51 +0100 Received: from captainfb78633 (Z63+PwZere5ZO1KZCmceQ9dUYSy64RfSh4kLHVKW6ifIvzNoW2cYYB@[217.86.132.216]) by fwd10.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CiiW1-26obWS0; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 01:13:37 +0100 Message-ID: <056d01c4eba9$5b950630$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> To: Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 01:16:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ID: Z63+PwZere5ZO1KZCmceQ9dUYSy64RfSh4kLHVKW6ifIvzNoW2cYYB X-TOI-MSGID: 5d722350-74a6-466e-a9d7-fe94630eb066 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 194.25.134.17 X-eGroups-From: ringding777@t-online.de (Frank Reitemeyer) From: ringding777@t-online.de Subject: The Judge Case - A Conspiracy which Ruined the Theosophical Cause X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=190924709 X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Judge Case - A Conspiracy which Ruined the Theosophical Cause: Advertisement: http://www.theosophycanada.com/ets_judge_case.pdf How to read: http://www.theosophycanada.com/ets_how_to_read.htm Contents: http://blavatskyarchives.com/wqjcasetableofcontents.pdf "Time to repel attack when it is made. A danger lies here as if not wtched we might have an anti H.P.B. sect." - William Q. Judge in a letter to E. Hargrove, Oct. 19th, 1893, see Appendix p. 223. "An Inner Group was later formed by H.P.B.:. at London, so that she might give out teachings to be recorded by the members, and, if possible, teach them practical occultism. Of this Mrs. Besant, with George Mead to help her, was made the Secretary... But this did not make her a Teacher." - William Q. Judge in the E.S.T. circular "By Master's direction", see Appendix p. 131. Close examination proofs that Judge was until his death loyal to spirit and letter of Masters and HPB's words, whereas Annie Besant was only loyal to exoteric dead-letter interpretation. Obviously, this makes the difference between a real teacher and a self-styled would-be guru. It seems further, that this conspiracy from within the TM continues until today. Frank [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meredith_bill@earthlink.net Sun Dec 26 16:24:46 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: meredith_bill@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26019 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 00:24:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 00:24:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pop-a065d14.pas.sa.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.252) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 00:24:45 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.153.84.115.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.153.84.115]) by pop-a065d14.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Ciigk-0002VR-00; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 16:24:43 -0800 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.298 [265.6.4]); Sun, 26 Dec 2004 19:24:37 -0500 Message-ID: <000801c4ebaa$72020840$73549904@JoeyMeredith> To: "Theosophy Study List" , , Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 19:24:36 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.121.252 From: "Bill Meredith" Subject: IN A DARK TIME X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=191212763 X-Yahoo-Profile: meredith_bille Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a dark time, the eye begins to see, I meet my shadow in the deepening shade; I hear my echo in the echoing wood-- A lord of nature weeping to a tree. I live between the heron and the wren, Beasts of the hill and serpents of the den. What's madness but nobility of soul At odds with circumstance? The day's on fire! I know the purity of pure despair, My shadow pinned against a sweating wall. That place among the rocks -- is it a cave, Or winding path? The edge is what I have. A steady storm of correspondences! A night flowing with birds, a ragged moon, And in broad day the midnight come again! A man goes far to find out what he is-- Death of the self in a long, tearless night, All natural shapes blazing unnatural light. Dark, dark my light, and darker my desire. My soul, like some heat-maddened summer fly, Keeps buzzing at the sill. Which I is I? A fallen man, I climb out of my fear. The mind enters itself, and God the mind, And one is One, free in the tearing wind. Theodore Roethke - 1964 ---------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.4 - Release Date: 12/22/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 26 17:22:57 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 1850 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 01:22:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 01:22:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.80) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 01:22:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 53517 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Dec 2004 01:22:55 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=EL9hf8fETD0QJSfIY8zigq7ScYXI1neQEA5JmAKNa4HDJ1cVXnfsmm/FH1iL2VsypC4+Z+5ENU+2RqaUqg63R6QDjjTL2Y98nA9aelWQnJFIjAsJh4WWLBeTz40DBmqLleSuctmdHlU4ofTAzOYjpMSBNGcLHxYG8v+GoxByBjY= ; Message-ID: <20041227012255.53515.qmail@web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:22:55 PST Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:22:55 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <41CE482A.4090506@idirect.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.80 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World re karma, Theosophy, exoteric versions and ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As long as it works at the exoteric and esoteric level, the meaning is appr= opriate for the reader's (interpreter's) level of understanding. The Bible= does not meet this criteria, but still it has its millions of believers. Cass=20 Mauri wrote: Somebody wrote: <<2) Karma is the=20 adjustment of effects flowing from=20 causes, during which the being upon whom=20 and through whom that adjustment is=20 effected experiences pain or pleasure.>> I don't see how the defining of the word=20 "karma" can escape interpretation (or=20 what might be generally "understood" as=20 "interpretation," at any rate ...), and=20 if all "interpretations" are also seen=20 as "karmic," then wouldn't that kind of=20 defining seem kind of mayavic and kind=20 of like an "exoteric version,"=20 basically, among other things ... In=20 other words, as I tend to see it,=20 inasmuchas the "reading between the=20 lines" of "exoteric versions" is=20 basically "interpretive," or seen as=20 dependent on "karmic influences"=20 ("influences" that might be seen to have=20 an "interpretive aspect" ...) ... where=20 does that leave the average student of=20 Theosophy ... Seems to me that Theosophy=20 in general is a medium that might tend=20 to foster all kinds of opinions and=20 interpretations inasmuchas it's seen=20 basically and primarily as an "exoteric=20 version." But possibly most students of=20 Theosophy don't see themselves as making=20 100% literal interpretations ... And I=20 wonder if humans in general might have=20 some aspect to their make-up that might=20 at least influence them in ways that=20 might be seen as transcending=20 literal/exoteric versions and=20 interpretions, as by way of "intuitive=20 promptings," eg. I tend to suspect that=20 the latter ("tanscending aspect") might=20 have some truth to it, and that HPB and=20 the Masters were trying to appeal to=20 that aspect, trait or sensitivity (ie,=20 while being, or being seen/interpreted=20 as constrained to "exoteric versions by=20 karma"). Speculatively, Mauri Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! =96 What will yours do? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 26 17:28:31 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70399 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 01:28:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 01:28:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.79) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 01:28:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 34593 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Dec 2004 01:28:30 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=LJJeRDxTtucgs2h66eeAQjtFnOsPjJhjd46VmffJhoLEcLd3Ah3JynpSw1495Z+IL3x/o6kcxyXxT4lu62H5qFYOGCMsLBlZkrSjZh3Kuc9s2LqLuCTjX/+9xqebiPrMFjf0h33Iiz6pN+EWIWRPcdbw9/8x2OF7Zqnkil7onJw= ; Message-ID: <20041227012830.34591.qmail@web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:28:30 PST Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:28:30 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <056d01c4eba9$5b950630$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.79 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World The Judge Case - A Conspiracy which Ruined the Theosophical Cause X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There were many Matthew, Mark, Luke and John's but only one Jesus. It is t= he message that is important not the Messenger. Cass ringding777@t-online.de wrote: The Judge Case - A Conspiracy which Ruined the Theosophical Cause: Advertisement: http://www.theosophycanada.com/ets_judge_case.pdf=20 How to read: http://www.theosophycanada.com/ets_how_to_read.htm Contents: http://blavatskyarchives.com/wqjcasetableofcontents.pdf "Time to repel attack when it is made. A danger lies here as if not wtched = we might have an anti H.P.B. sect." - William Q. Judge in a letter to E. Hargrove, Oct. 19th, 1893, see Appendi= x p. 223. "An Inner Group was later formed by H.P.B.:. at London, so that she might g= ive out teachings to be recorded by the members, and, if possible, teach th= em practical occultism. Of this Mrs. Besant, with George Mead to help her, = was made the Secretary... But this did not make her a Teacher." - William Q. Judge in the E.S.T. circular "By Master's direction", see Appe= ndix p. 131. Close examination proofs that Judge was until his death loyal to spirit and= letter of Masters and HPB's words, whereas Annie Besant was only loyal to = exoteric dead-letter interpretation. Obviously, this makes the difference b= etween a real teacher and a self-styled would-be guru. It seems further, that this conspiracy from within the TM continues until t= oday. Frank [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! =96 Try it today!=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 26 17:30:11 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62094 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 01:30:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 01:30:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.74) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 01:30:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 66768 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Dec 2004 01:30:11 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=xzhuDwO1dGmR9ojdHGLIu2fxjTJg+P+6kJtS3QMEuhJ/X2fP5SAsNK0ouGHo+ncm9KIQUkVzcoBxP3QA8CL2bsIURQBqFxzZ7x5sURj7ErWx0fgQJAJwHgHDJOB8Dfo1VkDqEZbx+OXJV3tUbRB2covbZa4Y01FBfsEpuN1MDAo= ; Message-ID: <20041227013011.66765.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:30:11 PST Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:30:11 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <051701c4eba4$25c2bde0$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.74 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Besant's unconscious confession of the Masters words on the split X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Ringding, And what did the master demand? These seems a strange sentence to me as de= mand would interfere with another's karma. Cass ringding777@t-online.de wrote: Hello Pablo, you should consult a good english dictionary (which I also=20 do, as english is my second language, too) and re-read the=20 1900 letter again. Perhaps you will come to other conclusions. She managed her so-called "ES" in quite the opposite of what=20 the Master demanded. Frank ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Pablo Sender"=20 To:=20 Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 10:55 AM Subject: Theos-World RE: Besant's unconscious confession of=20 the Masters words on the split Hello Frank My mother lenguage is not the English so, sorry for my=20 writting. I have a question. You say about Besant: "...some defect in their own nature makes them hindrances=20 [as stated in the 1900 K.H. letter to her]" But in this letter K.H. give her some advises about the EST.=20 I wonder if it is not a validation for the "Besant's EST"? Best Wishes Pablo Correo Yahoo! - 6 MB, tecnolog=EDa antispam =A1gratis! Suscribite ya http://correo.yahoo.com.ar/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Sun Dec 26 17:39:15 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 45469 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 01:39:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 01:39:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.24) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 01:39:14 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n13.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Dec 2004 01:39:14 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.164] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Dec 2004 01:39:14 -0000 Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 01:39:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <04c401c4eb9e$b98a5f70$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 951 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.24 From: "prmoliveira" X-Originating-IP: 150.101.201.135 Subject: Re: Theos-World Responding to hatred X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617 X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, ringding777@t... wrote: > Judge taught that your black magicians from the jesuitic > Adyar gang have to put a stop. > > Censor, hypocrisy, cant, lies - is that what your satanists > Besant and Leadbeater taught you? > > What has a person like you to do in this list? Cancel your > membership on theos-talk! Bhagavan Das, in his book "The Science of the Emotions", writes of hate as "the instinctive perception by each self of the non-identity, the inherent separateness of each non-self, each atom of Mulaprakrti, from every other atom, every other not-self, and its endeavour to maintain such separate existence at all costs and by all means." The Mahatma Letters declare that "Love and Hatred are the only immortal feelings, the only survivors from the wreck of Ye-dhamma, or the phenomenal world." What is the role of hatred in human evolution? What is the role of hatred in theos-talk? Pedro From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Dec 26 18:57:57 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 39489 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 02:57:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 02:57:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 02:57:57 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cil52-0001Ig-QJ for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 21:57:56 -0500 Message-ID: <41CF7A39.5090008@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 21:58:01 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <03c501c4eb98$4296ec40$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> <41CF3B6A.9030307@sprynet.com> <04a301c4eb9c$463f8510$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> In-Reply-To: <04a301c4eb9c$463f8510$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbad08c1f36780e64b12be846d7eab690d3666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.61 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Judge "even higher than" Blavatsky?? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 ringding777@t-online.de wrote: >>Note the email name Frank uses to write this. > > Bart, do you want to say that only a Frank can speak out > frankly? No, I mean that if someone calls himself a ringding, he may very well be one. Bart From dennw3k@earthlink.net Sun Dec 26 20:13:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73317 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 04:13:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 04:13:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.69) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 04:13:53 -0000 Received: from [209.178.148.112] (helo=u7k5a4) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CimGV-0003ln-Ls for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:13:52 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=MJ4y7QcS+zASggYQyYQYp1M3UAMNtojo9NryAhkQvktqBkQKOilKKnpTisMl4zRk; Message-ID: <000601c4ebca$4c4f40c0$7094b2d1@u7k5a4> To: References: <000601c4e956$782eaa80$9a82b2d1@u7k5a4> <41CC32ED.6060500@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:32:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 55ecc707afea0d96d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bc4b3e0ceb1a6efc2cd90fee57290b7d1c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.69 From: "Dennis Kier" X-Originating-IP: 209.178.148.112 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and Bab 5 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38993992 As a matter of fact, No, I didn't notice that. Many people have beliefs with variations of Theosophy. Experience teaches us to pick something here, and something else there, when that item seems to be corroborated with some experience that we may have. In the Collected works somewhere HPB quoted The Buddha's paragraph to support that method of acquiring a belief system. I didn't bother to ask which items in Theosophy he incorporated in his belief system, and I don't suppose it matters (at least to me). This is pretty much the same passage from Olcott- Our Lord Buddha has said that we must not believe in a thing said, merely because it is said; nor in traditions because they have been handed down from antiquity; nor rumors, as such; nor writings by sages, because sages wrote them; nor fancies that we may suspect to have been inspired in us by a deva (that is, in presumed spiritual inspiration); nor from inferences drawn from some haphazard assumption we may have made; nor because of what seems an analogical necessity; nor on the mere authority of our teachers or masters. But we are to believe when the writing, doctrine, or saying is corroborated by our own reason and consciousness. See the KALAMA SUTTA of the ANGUTTARANIKAYA, as quoted in A BUDDHIST CATECHISM, by H. S. Olcott, President of the Theosophical Society, pp. 55, 56, Colombo, Ceylon, 1881 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 7:17 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and Bab 5 > > Dennis Kier wrote: > > I am also a fan of the Babylon 5 series. I have all the episodes on > > tape, and try to watch it once a year. > > Did you notice that the Doctor's description of his religious beliefs > was a form of theosophy (small "t")? > > Bart > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Dec 26 20:33:10 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33138 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 04:33:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 04:33:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 04:33:09 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CimZB-0005J3-2C for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:33:09 -0500 Message-ID: <41CF908A.2090107@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:33:14 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <04c401c4eb9e$b98a5f70$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> In-Reply-To: <04c401c4eb9e$b98a5f70$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba6b14467765181c261a105d5ab714b590301ee85fcf877b1e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.61 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 ringding777@t-online.de wrote: > Censor, hypocrisy, cant, lies - is that what your satanists > Besant and Leadbeater taught you? What's a satanist? Bart From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 26 22:13:51 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99874 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 06:13:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 06:13:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.32) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 06:13:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n15.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Dec 2004 06:13:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.141] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Dec 2004 06:13:51 -0000 Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 06:13:48 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41CF908A.2090107@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 771 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.32 From: "silva_cass" X-Originating-IP: 211.28.163.14 Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass It's a small woolly little thing with two short horns and a tail with an arrow at the end of it to hold its prey in place while contemplating dinner time. It comes with a fork which it uses as a rotisserie by breathing hot flames produced from the salivary gland. It's food preference are Charcoaled (as in BBQ) Christians but when they are scarce or out of season, it goes for anything that can't think for itself, while doing the told you so, told you so,told you, told you, told you so dance. Cass She who must be obeyed. --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > ringding777@t... wrote: > > Censor, hypocrisy, cant, lies - is that what your satanists > > Besant and Leadbeater taught you? > > What's a satanist? > > Bart From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Dec 26 22:13:58 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49401 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 06:13:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 06:13:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m21.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 06:13:57 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1d6.32fe0fc0 (4568) for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 01:10:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1d6.32fe0fc0.2f010151@aol.com> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 01:10:25 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.2 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/26/04 10:36:22 PM Central Standard Time, bartl@sprynet.com writes: << What's a satanist? Bart >> Besant as satanist?? I can see my satanist friends laughing their heads off. Chuck the Heretic From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Mon Dec 27 04:33:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72698 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 12:33:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 12:33:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx02.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.12) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 12:33:34 -0000 Received: from 3e6b03b7.rev.stofanet.dk ([62.107.3.183] helo=khidr) by mx02.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1Ciu40-0008TR-2w for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 13:33:28 +0100 Message-ID: <003601c4ec10$b59ccac0$b7036b3e@khidr> To: Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 13:36:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 212.10.10.12 From: "M. Sufilight" Subject: Enhancements of the modern TS Classics... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo all, My views are: The following books could very well be classified as "Enhancements of the modern Theosophical Classics": 1. Books by Idries Shah: http://www.ishkbooks.com/books/books_shah_catalog.html 2. Books by Robert Ornstein: http://www.ishkbooks.com/books/ornstein_index.html 3. Other books by Octagon Press: Among others "The People of the Secret" and "The Sufi Mystery" http://www.ishkbooks.com/books/octagon_index.html?sp-q=scott+ernest&sp-a=sp1002be83&sp-p=all&sp-f=ISO-8859-1 Most of the books are available at the main library in larger cities or towns. Octagon Press has a policy seeking to make it possible for anyone truely interested to read the books. 4. Another option: You could turn of the PC and go outside your house and meet the world. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Dec 27 04:34:56 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 90530 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 12:34:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 12:34:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m26.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.7) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 12:34:56 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m26.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.7b.3b5e6417 (4560) for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 07:34:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7b.3b5e6417.2f015b6d@aol.com> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 07:34:53 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.7 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/27/04 12:15:04 AM Central Standard Time, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: << It's food preference are Charcoaled (as in BBQ) Christians but when they are scarce or out of season, it goes for anything that can't think for itself, while doing the told you so, told you so,told you, told you, told you so dance. >> Fortunately in this part of the world, they are rarely scarce and their offspring are very tasty when stuffed with crabmeat and served with apples in their little mouths. Chuck the Cannibal Heretic From mhart@idirect.ca Mon Dec 27 07:14:39 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97035 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 15:14:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 15:14:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 15:14:37 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.148] (helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CiwZv-0004IM-KR for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:14:35 +0000 Message-ID: <41D02783.90009@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 10:17:23 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041227012255.53515.qmail@web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.125 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World re karma, Theosophy, exoteric versions and ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Cass Silva wrote: > As long as it works at the exoteric and esoteric > level, the meaning is appropriate for the reader's > (interpreter's) level of understanding. The Bible > does not meet this criteria, but still it has its > millions of believers. > Cass Hmm ... ^:-/ ... Mauri From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 27 09:17:46 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72933 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 17:17:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 17:17:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 17:17:35 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CiyUx-000604-6x for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 12:17:35 -0500 Message-ID: <41D043B5.9060501@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 12:17:41 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <1d6.32fe0fc0.2f010151@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <1d6.32fe0fc0.2f010151@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba80ad3dee507a7dca5977b37fd7f03282a30146a21c727840350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.65 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/26/04 10:36:22 PM Central Standard Time, > bartl@sprynet.com writes: > > << What's a satanist? > >> > > Besant as satanist?? > > I can see my satanist friends laughing their heads off. TOS, COS, or medieval (is Michael Aquino still alive? I haven't heard from him in years). Bart From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Dec 27 10:13:51 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65942 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 18:13:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 18:13:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d04.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.36) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 18:13:50 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1da.3288d2d8 (4568) for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 13:05:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1da.3288d2d8.2f01a906@aol.com> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 13:05:58 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.36 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/27/04 11:19:54 AM Central Standard Time, bartl@sprynet.com writes: << TOS, COS, or medieval (is Michael Aquino still alive? I haven't heard from him in years). Bart >> All of the above. I have lots of strange fans. (Michael Aquino being one of them and to the best of my knowledge he's still alive though he stepped down from the Temple of Set leadership some years ago.) Chuck the Heretic From mail@katinkahesselink.net Mon Dec 27 10:53:24 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mail@katinkahesselink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 36711 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 18:53:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 18:53:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.28) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 18:53:23 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n14.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Dec 2004 18:53:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.118] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Dec 2004 18:53:21 -0000 Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:53:19 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 310 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.28 From: "Katinka Hesselink" X-Originating-IP: 81.59.102.169 Subject: TS Headquarters alright X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=92802723 X-Yahoo-Profile: katinka_hesselink Hi all, For those of you wondering whether the Tsunami hit the TS-Adyar headquarters in India: it missed it. The neighbouring fishermansvillage has been hit and some of the students at the Olcottschool and their parents are missing, but the convention is going on as planned. Best wishes, Katinka Hesselink From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Dec 27 13:31:12 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51685 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 21:31:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 21:31:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m28.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.9) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 21:31:11 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.e4.5f7c361c (4206) for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:30:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:30:50 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.9 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World TS Headquarters alright X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano And a loud voice was heard echoing through the Ashram: "Morya!!! I'm taking back the earthquake machine!!!" Chuck the Heretic From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Mon Dec 27 14:39:50 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14225 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 22:39:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 22:39:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.35) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 22:39:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Dec 2004 22:39:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.151] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Dec 2004 22:39:49 -0000 Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:39:44 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1268 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.35 From: "prmoliveira" X-Originating-IP: 150.101.201.135 Subject: Re: News from Adyar TS Headquarters X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617 X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Katinka Hesselink" wrote: > For those of you wondering whether the Tsunami hit the TS-Adyar > headquarters in India: it missed it. The neighbouring > fishermansvillage has been hit and some of the students at the > Olcottschool and their parents are missing, but the convention is > going on as planned. Having spoken on the phone with a number of officers at Adyar, including the President, I was told that a number of Indian TS workers and their families who live near the Adyar river were severely affected by the calamity. I was also told that approximately 2,000 dwellers from the nearby fishing village are taking shelter in the grounds of the Olcott Memorial High School (founded by HSO in 1894), on the TS estate. The Theosophical Order of Service, which will have a conference in a few days at Adyar, has launched an appeal for funds, which one hopes will very soon become an international appeal. In the mid-1990s, when a powerful earthquake hit Gujarat, India, a similar appeal was made. The Theosophical Order of Service, at times of national calamity like this, liaises with the Ramakrishna Mission in India which has a wide national capilarity in reaching out those in need. Pedro From leonmaurer@aol.com Mon Dec 27 15:21:15 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 68529 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 23:21:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 23:21:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m15.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.205) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 23:21:15 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.13e.966902b (4328); Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:21:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <13e.966902b.2f01f2e3@aol.com> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:21:07 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.138.205 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: How fractal evolution works - part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 12/20/04 10:36:38 PM, sensaru@bellsouth.net writes: <>=20 Not really. Einstein knew the metaphysical truth about the origin and=20 genesis of the Cosmos... The same way any master, adept or occultist could = know it.=20=20 The problem was that he was baffled in finding an objective evidential proo= f=20 that also could be expressed mathematically (i.e., falsifiable and testable= ,=20 as required by the scientific method) of what is essentially an insoluble=20 metaphysical problem. So, we could say, he was trying to examine the unifi= ed field=20 (that had a non measurable aspect at its metaphysical end near the=20 zero-point-instant "singularity") with the same tools that described the di= rectly=20 measurable or indirectly provable electromagnetic, weak, strong and gravita= tional=20 fields or forces at the other end. At the same time there was a basic=20 discrepancy between his relativity and quantum theories that also couldn't = be resolved=20 using the tools he had at hand. Even today, no matter how close M-theory, aether physics theory, quantum=20 field theories, ABC field theory, etc., approach a scientifically valid Uni= fied=20 Field Theory, or Theory of Everything -- they can never reach, touch, or=20 objectively explain the primal cause of Absolute zero-point "spinergy" -- o= r infinite=20 angular momentum of abstract circular, or "gyroscopic" motion that started = it=20 all (at least this present cycle of phenomenal existence) which, in itself,= =20 like primal thought, the (=B1G) force, and consciousness, would necessarily= be=20 infinitely divisible (as well as infinitely expandable)... And, thereby, ca= nnot=20 be defined using any finite mathematical or word symbols...=20=20 Although, I believe its awakening, manifestation and differentiation (at=20 least the coenergetic field involutional stages) can be graphically,=20 topologically, numerologically, as well as algebraically symbolized -- prov= ided one can=20 focus on limited realms within the overall involution of the coadunate but = not=20 consubstantial fields of consciousness as they descend from the higher octa= ves=20 of energy-frequency on the spiritual level, to the lower order fields on th= e=20 physical level. This process, being fractally infinite in scope, repeats i= tself=20 analogously and correspondingly all the way down from the Cosmic to the hum= an=20 level, passing through to the lowest cellular forms of life, to fundamental= =20 particles themselves, ad infinitum. Thus, the first triple field "monad" an= d=20 all its replicants, that can be likened to two bubbles withn a surrounding= =20 bubble, is the effective source of all life and consciousness throughout th= e=20 universe. (Ref: web sites below.)=20 In addition, there are scientific theories and mathematics such as Cantor's= =20 infinite sets, Bohm-Pribram's "holographic paradigm," Mandelbrot's fractal= =20 geometry, new math's that use imaginary numbers, etc., that someday could b= e=20 combined (possibly together with biological evolutionary theories such as=20 Sheldrake's morphogenetic field concepts) into a true theory of everything = -- which,=20 nevertheless, might still remain non testable and non provable for a long t= ime=20 to come. (Unless, of course, subjective evidence could be given the same we= ight=20 as objective evidence.)=20=20 Unfortunately today, reductive science, which is still crawling around in=20 materialism, believes wrongly, that matter sucked into and being absorbed i= n a=20 black hole is compressed at the zero-point "singularity" into an infinitely= =20 dense solid mass, or spins around in a "wormhole" to be spit out in some ot= her=20 volume of space-time, or even into another parallel universe. The real que= stion=20 is... How far can they stretch materialism and reductive science -- trying = to=20 causally pin down intangible G-force, thought, mind, will, or consciousness= --=20 before it slaps back in their faces so hard it wakes them up? :-)=20 Therefore, even if Einstein were still alive today and working on the probl= em=20 -- while he would comprehend the latest holistic field theories and probabl= y=20 see their ultimate combinatorial approach toward understanding the true nat= ure=20 of reality -- he would still be "baffled" in finding a means to express it= =20 objectively or mathematically without accepting Spirit or Consciousness as = a=20 universal a priori given... Along with the idea that it is separate from, b= ut=20 simultaneously (or as Buddhists might say, "dependently") arising, along w= ith=20 Matter or Substance, out of the initial "zero-point" and its surrounding=20 "spinergy" or G-Force -- that in its vibrational interference patterns,=20 holographically contains the noumena of all phenomena, as well as the inter= related memory=20 and imagination of all cosmic experience, past, present and future. How al= l=20 that can be possible and contained within an absolute, unconditioned "empty= "=20 Space of zero dimension, extension, contention or apprehension, is beyond a= ll=20 human intellectual comprehension. (But, not necessarily beyond their intuit= ion or=20 imagination. :-) Thus, all such theories, however combined, will forever remain incomplete a= nd=20 non provable in objective terms... Although, that reality would certainly b= e=20 capable of being intuited subjectively, and visualized imaginatively (as=20 theosophists or Buddhists might say) by the "opened eye of the Dangma," or = by a=20 Self realized, spiritually awakened subjective observer of one's own inner = nature=20 -- who can see the nature of the Universe reflected in it.=20=20 And, doesn't all that fit in with the ancient sayings; "As above, so below,= "=20 and; "God (can only be described as being that which) is Omnipresent,=20 Omniscient, and Omnipotent," and as; "God said to Moses, 'I AM THAT, I AM'= "? Well,=20 who is that I AM, other than each and every one of us I AMs, all together? = If=20 not that -- then who can say what, where and who is the "God" that Einstein= =20 said, "doesn't play dice with the Universe"?=20=20 Best wishes, Leon Maurer http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/TaiChiFldDiag-figure-2.gif=20 http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Invlutionfldmirror2.gif http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/BuddhaBabyGordianKnot.gif (for fun) "To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as th= e=20 highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty...this knowledge, this feeling i= s=20 at the center of true religiousness." =A0 -- =A0Albert Einstein "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.= " =A0 -- =A0Albert Einstein ---- Original Message--------=20 >=20 > From: LeonMaurer@aol.com > Date: 2004/12/17 Fri AM 03:37:51 EST > To: study@blavatsky.net > Subject: [bn-study] How fractal evolution works - part 2 >=20 > How fractal evolution works...=20 >=20 > http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/fixedtree.gif >=20 > ... Is an interesting animation, related to ABC theory that describes how= =20 > emanation of a dual entwined (positive-negative) ray (Superstring?) of=20 Primal=20 > Force fractally involves radially (cyclically and vortically) out of the= =20 initial=20 > "spinergy" (or abstract motion) surrounding the absolute zero (laya) poin= t=20 --=20 > to initially form the "coadunate but not consubstantial" fields of=20 universal=20 > consciousness... That continues ("as above so below") in descending phase= =20 > orders of frequency-energy, to eventually replicate into the seven fold=20 fields of=20 > human consciousness. This also indicates why analogy and correspondence = is=20 a=20 > basic rule for understanding theosophical metaphysics or occult science.= =20 For=20 > diagrams showing how this works, see:=20 > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html > http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/invlutionflddiagnotate.gif >=20 > Science today -- while it is gradually approaching an understanding of=20 > multidimensional hyperspace fields (Superstring/M-brane theory, quantum=20 field=20 > theory, etc.) that are analogous to the ABC fields, and is beginning to=20 comprehend=20 > the relationship of the Aether (lower Astral field that, besides being th= e=20 > magnetic model of all forms of life, is also the medium of light) to the= =20 physical=20 > or metric fields of matter -- has still a long way to go before their=20 wished=20 > for "Unified field Theory" (that baffled Einstein for more than 30 years)= =20 can=20 > become a scientifically proven reality. But, first, they have to solve t= he=20 > "hard problems" of explaining the "experience of consciousness" and=20 "brain-mind=20 > binding" that is still baffling all of science -- even after the past 10= =20 years=20 > of serious study as a recognized scientific discipline.=20 >=20 > This won't occur until scientists realize that consciousness (as awarenes= s=20 > and will or intent) is a universal aspect of fundamental reality related = to=20 the=20 > zero-point itself... That is everywhere (contiguous on the highest level = of=20 > zero-point energy) and is the central origin of all fields of force...=20 While=20 > being the basis of the so called "entanglement" or "action at a distance"= =20 between=20 > fundamental quantum particles on any level. With this ultimate=20 understanding=20 > they will also be able to synthesize information theory with relativity a= nd=20 > quantum theories, along with recent theories of Aether physics, plasma=20 > electrodynamics, holographic paradigm, etc., and come up with an entirely= =20 new and=20 > synthetic scientific (physics, biology, cosmology, physiology, etc.)=20 paradigm.=20=20 >=20 > When all this is accomplished, science will be able to finally merge with= =20 > religion... And, the rest of Mankind can go about learning these=20 fundamental=20 > truths, absorbing them (along with the eternality of spirit or self, and= =20 the unity=20 > and connectedness of all that they imply) into their souls, and cleaning = up=20 > its act (that is now driving the world toward it ultimate destruction). >=20 > Best wishes, >=20 > Leon Maurer > http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics >=20 From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Mon Dec 27 15:33:30 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 32235 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 23:33:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 23:33:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.net4india.com) (202.71.129.73) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 23:33:29 -0000 Received: from [61.1.106.39] (helo=k) by smtp.net4india.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1Cj4MX-0003Sj-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:03:17 +0530 Message-ID: <000c01c4ec6c$714ef6c0$276a013d@k> To: Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:02:32 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.71.129.73 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Fw: [Theosophical] Is Adyar Okay? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: anand_gholap_1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "ramanujachary n.c." To: > > Dear friend, > Thanks for your inquiry. All is well with Adyar and > the residents. The tidal waves or earthquake has > fortunately not touched any of us. The annual > convention is going on well uninterrupted. > Dr Ramanujachary > From samblo@cs.com Mon Dec 27 16:03:04 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 19829 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 00:03:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 00:03:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m22.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 00:03:03 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.e3.9ad2923 (4196) for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:02:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:02:46 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.3 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World TS Headquarters alright X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Katinka, Thanks, I was one that was wondering about that. John From silva_cass@yahoo.com Mon Dec 27 16:55:34 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 32663 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 00:55:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 00:55:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.48) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 00:55:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n19.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 00:55:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.162] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 00:55:32 -0000 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:55:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7b.3b5e6417.2f015b6d@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 637 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.48 From: "silva_cass" X-Originating-IP: 211.28.163.14 Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Bon appetite --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@a... wrote: > In a message dated 12/27/04 12:15:04 AM Central Standard Time, > silva_cass@y... writes: > > << It's food preference are Charcoaled (as in BBQ) Christians > but when they are scarce or out of season, it goes for anything that > can't think for itself, while doing the told you so, told you > so,told you, told you, told you so dance. >> > > Fortunately in this part of the world, they are rarely scarce and their > offspring are very tasty when stuffed with crabmeat and served with apples in their > little mouths. > > Chuck the Cannibal Heretic From silva_cass@yahoo.com Mon Dec 27 16:58:31 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62710 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 00:58:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 00:58:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.42) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 00:58:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 00:58:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.164] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 00:58:30 -0000 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:58:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 477 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.42 From: "silva_cass" X-Originating-IP: 211.28.163.14 Subject: Re: TS Headquarters alright X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Dear Katinka The priorities don't fit the theosophical maxims. Cass --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Katinka Hesselink" wrote: > > Hi all, > > For those of you wondering whether the Tsunami hit the TS-Adyar > headquarters in India: it missed it. The neighbouring > fishermansvillage has been hit and some of the students at the > Olcottschool and their parents are missing, but the convention is > going on as planned. > > Best wishes, > Katinka Hesselink From zakkduffany@earthlink.net Mon Dec 27 20:34:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 85161 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 04:34:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 04:34:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.44) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 04:34:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 04:34:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.189] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 04:34:28 -0000 X-Sender: zakkduffany@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 161 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2004 20:44:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2004 20:44:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 20:44:05 -0000 Received: from [63.159.212.181] (helo=downunder) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cj1il-0006Sr-4G for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:44:05 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=dAp2oaBCCTYmZW4KRkzCvHxwmpOSo7z0Nul8YJYdCfJ12LJJjzPsCPDu5KstadcH; Message-ID: <002801c4ec54$dbc90990$b5d49f3f@downunder> To: Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:44:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: 6032057824b7a799ff7034cf760bda279ef193a6bfc3dd480642bc6c43235ff089cd0bccd9557c3a3899c79c7caf56c9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "Zakk Duffany" Reply-To: "Zakk Duffany" X-Originating-IP: 63.159.212.181 Subject: Brotherhood & Truth X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=196035959 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 28 Dec 2004 04:34:27 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.44 Thoughts on Brotherhood & Truth, ideals of Theosophy : Brotherhood : Brotherhood is a term which represents a relationship. This relationship consists of the communing of brothers. Compassion is experienced within that relationship. Respect for one another also is descriptive of brotherhood. Acceptance of one another even though there be differences, whether it refers to the physical body, the culture, ideals, or the perspectives of the individual. Brotherhood unifies, brings together individuals into an aspect of oneness. Who participates in brotherhood? Is it not one who practices the meaning of brotherhood versus one who only voices the statement "I am a brother and you are my brother."? The individual who condemns another, whether it be towards one's appearance, culture, perspectives, or personal discernment is not seen as expressing brotherhood. The acceptance and allowance for another to think freely expresses brotherhood. One does not need to agree with another to accept another. Brothers have discussions and share thoughts. Argueing and attempting to impose one's way of thought upon another is not a defining or action of brotherhood. Question : Why would an Adept or Master reveal his/her identity and participate in an organization that proclaims brotherhood but does not practice it? Why would an Adept or Master reveal more knowledge to that organization? Does a child run before it walks? Walk before crawling? Until one practices what one knows and is successful, would not the next step remain unrevealed? What use is more knowledge to one who can not assimulate and put forth what is already known? Truth : Truth is realized through personal discernment. Truth is not realized by one imposing upon another. Imposing upon another, insulting another, offending another are all methods of distancing another from the Truths one may express. Who would wish to distance another from Truth? The sharing and discussions done through the aspect of brotherhood promotes personal discernment of Truths. Truths through personal discernment are realized by each individual in their own time. Why push another? Below is an excerpt from a writing called A Threefold Path To Wisdom. Seek Truth - Search for that which is true. Not only the truth in which you see, but the truth that others see. This entails many perspectives. Use an eye that is open, an ear that is open. In keeping yours open, you will also be open to the eye and ear of others. This allows for a greater range of truth to be recognized. Speak truth. In seeing, hearing, and speaking truth, you will touch upon the truth in it's fulness. If one were to see a shirt that is seen to be blue, and another says it is not blue; seek to find the truth in the other's statement. If you can not see it, do not say "What you say is false", but instead, say "I do not see the truth in what you say". The latter response is a truer statement. The other, who said the shirt is not blue, could be seeing a truth also. He could be colorblind. Or he could be thinking that the shirt is reflecting blue light, giving it a blue appearance, while in actuality, the shirt is every color but blue. Blue is the only color the shirt is not, for every color is absorbed into it except that which is reflected and taken in by the eye. There is truth in all things. Only by seeking the truth in all things, can you see the truth in all things. This is the sincere seeker of truth. Seek not for what is false, for then you will be a seeker of that which is false. Your focus will be in the opposite direction of truth. You will become a knower of falsehoods instead of a knower of truth. Falsehoods will overshadow truth, instead of truth overshadowing falsehoods. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Dec 28 00:59:28 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 92804 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 08:59:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 08:59:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d23.mx.aol.com) (205.188.139.137) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 08:59:27 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.8b.1d7a025b (3850) for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 03:59:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8b.1d7a025b.2f027a68@aol.com> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 03:59:20 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.139.137 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World How fractal evolution works - part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 12/25/04 8:55:12 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: >SO IS SPINERGY, KARMA IN ACTION? > >Cass Karma in action depends on spinergy. But, spinergy is not karma. It is simply the engine which assures that karma continues to operate incessantly until the disharmonies due to karma in action become resolved. Therefore, all karmic action must always result in an equivalent reaction or counter action. This, no matter how long it takes to occur, will happen because the spinergy empowering it is not only infinite in its potential energy, but also in its capacity to carry interminable amounts of karmic memory. Thus, karma is immutable, since it never forgets, and its reaction will always return to the activating source and remain equal and opposite to its action. LM 2) Karma is the adjustment of effects flowing from causes, during which the being upon whom and through whom that adjustment is effected experiences pain or pleasure. (3) Karma is an undeviating and unerring tendency in the Universe to restore equilibrium, and it operates incessantly. (4) The apparent stoppage of this restoration to equilibrium is due to the necessary adjustment of disturbance at some other spot, place, or focus which is visible only to the Yogi, to the Sage, or the perfect Seer: there is therefore no stoppage, but only a hiding from view. (5) Karma operates on all things and beings from the minutest conceivable atom to Brahma. Proceeding in the three worlds men, gods, and the elementalbeings, no spot in the manifested universe is exempt from its sway. (6) Karma is not subject to time, and therefore he who knows what is the ultimate division of time in this Universe knows Karma. (7) For all other men Karma is in its essential nature unknown and unknowable. (8) But its action may be known by calculation from cause to effect; and this calculation is possible because the effect is wrapped up in and is not succedent to the cause. (9) The Karma of this earth is the combination of the acts and thoughts of all beings of every grade which were concerned in the preceding Manvantara or evolutionary stream from which ours flows. Because the Karma of this earth and its races began in a past too Far back for human minds to reach, an inquiry into its beginning is useless and profitless. (12) Karmic causes already set in motion must be allowed to sweep on until exhausted, but this permits no man to refuse to help his fellows and every sentient being. From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Dec 28 01:30:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 19033 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 09:30:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 09:30:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m14.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.204) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 09:30:52 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1ad.2deac26b (3850) for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:29:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1ad.2deac26b.2f028175@aol.com> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:29:25 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.138.204 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World How fractal evolution works - part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Dear Cass, Since you seem to get the point, I have no wonder about where you are coming from. You are right, the knowing flows in both directions, the manifestation (us) must know itself while the self (it) that created the manifestation must know its creation. That is the nature of thought thinking within itself... And, why we know we are conscious and know that we know we are conscious. Thus, the thinker in us is the thought of the thinker who thought us up. I hope that clears things up a bit about where I'm coming from. :-) Leon In a message dated 12/25/04 9:14:57 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: > >Dear Leon >If you are wondering where I am coming from, it is >NOT THAT "IT" CAN KNOW "ITSELF" - MANIFESTATION - THE CAUSE >BUT THAT "ITSELF" CAN KNOW "IT" - THE EFFECTS OF MANIFESTION >Cass Dear Leon If you are wondering where I am coming from, it is NOT THAT "IT" CAN KNOW "ITSELF" - MANIFESTATION - THE CAUSE BUT THAT "ITSELF" CAN KNOW "IT" - THE EFFECTS OF MANIFESTION Cass leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: Mauri, thanks for the good wishes. But, even if I am beating my head against a wall, maybe someday a few eager accredited scientists with theosophical leanings might pick up the ABC ideas and incorporate them into their radically new theories -- to come up with a respectable and provable "Unified Field Theory of Everything" that might shake up the rest of them. Then, perhaps, they could start collaborating on building that "pyramid" of theosophically linked scientific ideas that might wake up the rest of the world. In the meantime, all I can do is keep on promulgating the ABC ideas wherever and however the opportunities appear. Recently, I've been contacted by some interested scientists and engineers who are beginning to see some light at the end of the tunnel. They apparently think that my combining of the source of consciousness with that of physical matter, and the conjoining of subject with object, linking mind to brain and awareness to will or intent, is just what's missing in their respective theories. As we begin to combine our various directions of thought, we'll see what the future brings. In the interim, I'll keep on plugging away through the various scientific and theosophical forums -- with the hope that some more thinkers and doers might start throwing their two cents in, and giving us wall bangers a hand with some useful ideas. :-) Best wishes, Leonardo In a message dated 12/17/04 1:21:10 PM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote, in part: >> How fractal evolution works... >> This won't occur until scientists realize that consciousness (as awareness >> and will or intent) is a universal aspect of fundamental reality related to the >> zero-point itself... That is everywhere (contiguous on the highest level of >> zero-point energy) and is the central origin of all fields of force... While being >> the basis of the so called "entanglement" or "action at a distance" between >> fundamental quantum particles on any level. With this ultimate understanding >> they will also be able to synthesize information theory with relativity and >> quantum theories, along with recent theories of Aether physics, plasma >> electrodynamics, holographic paradigm, etc., and come up with an entirely >> new and synthetic scientific (physics, biology, cosmology, physiology, etc.) >> paradigm. When all this is accomplished, science will be able to finally merge >> with religion... And, the rest of Mankind can go about learning these fundamental >> truths, absorbing them (along with the eternality of spirit or self, and the unity >> and connectedness of all that they imply) into their souls, and cleaning up >> its act (that is now driving the world toward it ultimate destruction). >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Leon Maurer >> http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics > >Leon, those kinds of efforts remind me >of the efforts of those "gods" like >Osiris during the "First Time" (Zep >Tepi) in ancient Egypt. So maybe if you >were to build a few impressive pyramids > or some kind of equally impressive >things, as well, would that help to >impressive the natives that more is >going on than meets the average native >eye ... ? Not that your ABC's might not >necessarily be seen as impressive >enough, maybe, in some sense, maybe ... >but then if your ABC's get the same kind >of interpretive treatment that the >pyramids have had from orthodox >Egyptologists, well ... ^:-/ ... > >Good Luck, anyway. >Mauri > >PS Been reading Hancocks FINGERPRINTS >OF THE GODS, lately. Fascinating. From eletzerich@yahoo.com Tue Dec 28 04:13:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44423 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 12:13:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 12:13:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.20) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 12:13:16 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n12.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 12:12:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.155] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 12:12:51 -0000 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:12:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1ad.2deac26b.2f028175@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 393 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.20 From: "Erica Letzerich" X-Originating-IP: 83.171.216.254 Subject: Re: Theos-World Tsunami X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419 X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich Dear friends, As I know some of the members of this group are from Athens, Greece, we are organizing to send for India (Adyar) food and clothes to help the victims of the tsunami. So if you are in Athens and you wish to help you may contact me in the phone 6976231520. Fortunately Adyar was not affected but there are many victims in the area that need help. Regards, Erica Letzerich From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Dec 28 06:09:15 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6247 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 14:09:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 14:09:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 14:09:14 -0000 Received: from [216.244.6.88] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CjI2C-0001pO-4T; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:09:13 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Importance; b=NVD+X6KrwA1w7aDUYzrWUQh8rvk5PLmxCevwwESw8pj/b2EFbJCR+Zc+rCnHrVwU; To: Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:09:08 -0800 Message-ID: <002201c4ece6$cee6ec50$5806f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79166ab26dc91a77ef1ae73c0fc71f4dbf350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.67 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 216.244.6.88 Subject: RE: [bn-study] Re: UNCERTAINTY X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 29 2004 Dear Friends: CERTAINTY AND UNCERTAINTY Of three things everyone can be quite certain: 1 We know we exist. 2 We know that a host of beings are all around us, and we can say with certainty: We know the Universe (ALL--INCLUSIVE) exists. 3 The 3rd item of certainty is that there is an on-going relationship between us and the rest of the Universe (or call it Nature). It supports and gives us life, and in turn we either help it in its creative work, or w= e try to impair or destroy it. It is forever a give and take situation.=20=20 The Universe has been here a far longer time than we have. It nurtures mor= e than anything else. It arranges the laws of co-existence, from the sub-atom= , to the grandest and furtherest aspects we can probe of its illimitable boundaries. Science declares we owe our life to its regularity, impersonality and exactitude. Nothing is left out of its purview.=20=20 Our so-called scientific discoveries merely uncover successive preexisting layers of living interaction everywhere. If that is not evidence of intelligence and consciousness, then I don't know what those words mean.=20 Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: Pierre Pretorius=20 Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2004 10:20 PM To:=20 Subject Re: UNCERTAINTY Be certain of GOD - gain knowledge of GOD and self through theosophy - whic= h contains the TRUTH at its root. CUT From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Dec 28 06:09:50 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 52192 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 14:09:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 14:09:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 14:09:48 -0000 Received: from [216.244.6.88] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CjI2F-0001pO-EF; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:09:21 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Importance; b=cBak0iHn0emDRdX3A4joCAX9J9hzSUWGXzn+V4wPqF2+4c6LmVV7ztXxcBihGKBE; To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:09:08 -0800 Message-ID: <002301c4ece6$d0de0160$5806f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79c273bba7a86fdb66a03adcaa7267a271350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.67 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 216.244.6.88 Subject: RE: re karma in relation to expression, Theosophy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 28 2004 Dear Mauri: HPB is with us if we only go to her and try to find out what she already said:=20=20 For instance:=20 Have you observed that the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY was originated to fulfil three objects? [The T S is not THEOSOPHY ! The T S was supposed to promulgate it as a set of impersonal principles that could be applied.] "ENQUIRER. What are the objects of the "Theosophical Society"?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. They are three, and have been so from the beginning. (1.) To form the nucleus of a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity without distinction of race, colour, or creed.=20 2.) To promote the study of Aryan and other Scriptures, of the World's religion and sciences, and to vindicate the importance of old Asiatic literature, namely, of the Brahmanical, Buddhist, and Zoroastrian philosophies.=20 (3.) To investigate the hidden mysteries of Nature under every aspect possible, and the psychic and spiritual powers latent in man especially.=20 These are, broadly stated, the three chief objects of the Theosophical Society." The KEY TO THEOSOPHY p. 39. If one desires to discover what THEOSOPHY is, then by studying the basic books and articles written by Mme. H P Blavatsky, the accredited Agent of the Masters of Wisdom, you may discover a part of the following: FUNDAMENTAL DOCTRINES OF THEOSOPHY=20=20=20 1.) the individual immortality of all Monads that fill the entirety of Space, this includes the least as well as the highest of Spiritual Souls;=20 2.) the common bond of Karma (law) which serves as a basis for all interaction, as it unites the causal motives for all action, done by anything or anyone, with the exact results returning to the individual bein= g that generated them;=20=20 3.) a process of evolution that is continuous and extends from the smallest part of the vast UNIVERSE to its utmost limits, the least has the same potentials of the most advanced; and is for ever in contact with ever= y other entity or part of the whole Universe; =20 4.) a common goal for all units has been called: SPIRITUAL PERFECTION. It is open for all, and embraces all that can be known of the Universe and its uncountable components. That is: Maha-Buddhi, or, Universal WISDOM. Early in the KEY to THEOSOPHY, H. P. Blavatsky writes to establish some basis in the mind of the reader of what Theosophy stands for.=20 In part, she states: THEOSOPHY IS GODLIKE WISDOM, the word "Theosophy" was found used by Pythagoras, a contemporary of Gautama the Buddha. It is divine knowledge o= r science, such as that possessed by the "Gods." ITS FIRST OBJECT IS TO INCULCATE CERTAIN GREAT MORAL TRUTHS upon its disciples.=20=20 Other objects are: TO RECONCILE ALL RELIGIONS.under a common system of ethics, based on eternal verities.=20 And by demonstrating their identical origin, to establish one universal creed based on ethics. Additionally it aims to reinstate and restore to its primitive integrity the wisdom of the ancients. The WISDOM RELIGION (Theosophy) was ever one, and being the last word of possible human thought, was therefore carefully preserved It will survive every other religion and philosophy. Ancient theosophists claimed that the divine essence could be communicated to the higher Spiritual Self in a state of ecstasy. The latter (also named "samadhi") is practised by its devotees. It is an incessant endeavour to purify and elevate the mind. It is: "the ardent turning of the soul, towards the divine;" not to ask for any particular good, but for the universal Supreme Good for ALL.=20=20 It states that those ETHICS ARE THE SOUL OF THE WISDOM RELIGION, and are th= e common property of the initiates of all nations. Sri Krishna the great Avatar proclaimed them at the beginning of the present "Kali Yuga" in his "Gita - song" -- teaching them to Arjuna. And we are all "Arjunas," His pupils.=20 But Gautama Buddha was the first to embody those in his public teachings. I= t is the ethics of the Universe, that have always been the most insisted upon= . All these are now called "Theosophical doctrines," because they form part o= f the knowledge of the initiates.=20 These doctrines belong exclusively to no religion, and are confined to no society or time. They are the birthright of every human soul. Those who have imagined Theosophy to be a new religion have hunted in vain for its creed and ritual.=20 Its creed is Loyalty to Truth, and its ritual "To honor every truth by use.= " The THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY was organized on this one principle, the essential Brotherhood of Man. We hold to no religion, as to no philosophy in particular: we cull the good we find in each. The T S was established as a philanthropic and scientific body for the propagation of the ideas of brotherhood on a practical instead of theoretical lines. The T S cannot make a Theosophist of one who has no sense for the divine fitness of things.=20=20 "THEOSOPHIST IS, WHO THEOSOPHY DOES." How is this to be accomplished by those individuals who determine to adopt this as their personally policy of life?=20=20 It is a difficult undertaking, as the foremost rule is the entire renunciation of one's personality. He has to become a thorough altruist, never to think of himself, and to forget his own vanity and pride in the thought of the good of his fellow creatures, to live a life of abstinence i= n everything, of self-denial and strict morality, doing his duty by all men. If one asks what advantages are received from such a program, the answer is given: "deriving much strength from mutual aid and sympathy."=20=20=20 UNION IS STRENGTH AND HARMONY, AND WELL-REGULATED SIMULTANEOUS EFFORTS PRODUCE WONDERS.=20=20 This has been the secret of all associations and communities since mankind existed. Its aims and true goal are several, primarily the relief of human suffering, moral as well as physical. Theosophy has to inculcate ethics; it has to purify the soul, if it would relieve the physical body.=20 AN OCCULTIST PRACTICES SCIENTIFIC THEOSOPHY, BASED ON AN ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE OF NATURE'S SECRET WORKINGS.=20=20 The divine spark in man being one and identical in its essence with the Universal Spirit, our "spiritual Self" is practically omniscient, but it cannot manifest its knowledge owing to the impediments of matter. The more these impediments are removed, the physical body paralyzed, as to its own independent activity and consciousness, the more fully can the Inner Self manifest on this plane.=20 OUR BELIEFS ARE ALL FOUNDED ON THAT IMMORTAL INDIVIDUALITY.=20=20 Spirit is potential matter, and matter is simply crystallized Spirit, yet the original and eternal condition of all is not Spirit, but META-SPIRIT (visible and solid matter being simply its periodical manifestations) we maintain that the term Spirit can only be applied to the True Individuality= . SELFISHNESS IS ESSENTIALLY CONSERVATIVE and hates being disturbed. The power of mental inertia is great in anything that does not promise immediat= e benefit and reward. Our age is predominately unspiritual, and matter of fact.=20=20 Some Theosophical doctrines contradict flatly many of the human vagaries cherished by sectarians -- vagaries and errors which have eaten into the core, the very heart of popular beliefs.=20 The result is that AN ENTIRELY UNSELFISH CODE APPEALS TO A VERY LIMITED CLASS -- thus producing slow, up-hill results.=20 It is essentially the philosophy of those who suffer, and have lost all hop= e of being helped out of the mire of life by any other means. To me it is important that the philosophy and the logic of Nature be expose= d and referred to, rather than any opinion, mine or another's. Opinions fluctuate. Facts are stable. In a sentence: We are born this life into a condition, a nation, a community, which enables us under karma (which we created for ourselves by past choosing) to receive and make the best learning change for our own advance. Additionally, with knowledge that is true and universal, our choices can be molded to assist all we are connected to. In this we will be true brothers and helpful as a quiet example to all. To 'understand' another means to be able to mentally step into their "shoes= " and perceive their source of opinion. Then weighing ours and theirs (opinions) we can refer them to an ideal -- a moral norm. From that we can derive at least for ourselves what we ought to do. Another approach may be observed here: Esoteric and Exoteric aspects of the Theosophical Movement exist.=20 Hitherto in all discussions and answering, we have usually been concerned with the survey of the Theosophical Movement from its public aspects: a par= t of it is a recital of a series of historical and well documented events mor= e or less in relation with each other and with the sum of human activities, together with such reflections on their bearings and significance as to us appear logical and consistent.=20 An attempt has been made to show clearly that the vicissitudes both of the Theosophical Society and Madame Blavatsky's teachings of Theosophy were inevitable and but a repetition of the varying fortunes which have attended every former effort to introduce a system of thought and action at variance with the ideas, customs, and practices still firmly entrenched in the mind of the race.=20 So far, all that we have discussed is accessible in all its detail to any inquiring student, and the ordinary mind will find nothing beyond the range of common observation and experience.=20 The student will have both the advantage and the disadvantage of the familiar multitude of conflicting testimony and opinion that attends every inquiry into human affairs. He will find nothing that transcends the possibility of reconciliation or explanation on his habitual lines of thought, without greatly deranging his fundamental preconceptions regarding God, Nature, Man, and the course of evolution. ESOTERIC THEOSOPHY But, as we have early intimated, the Theosophical Movement has an esoteric as well as an exoteric side, and here the Western student is without guide, chart, or compass, either in his own memorial experience or in any as=20 credited testimony of the race to which he belongs.=20 Not only so, but he will find himself confronted, both in himself and in th= e race, with a deeply imbedded incredulity which derides and despises the ver= y possibility, even, of intellectual and spiritual evolution within and behin= d physical evolution.=20 SPIRITUAL LAWS AND PROGRESS The student of the esoteric side of the Theosophical Movement has then literally to take the position of a Columbus.=20 He has to postulate the existence of the spiritual and mental world or worlds, independent of and superior to our familiar universe, yet inter-penetrating it at every point, standing in relation to it as a cause to an effect, and, in man, almost inextricably interwoven and interblended in his embodied existence.=20 He has to admit the fundamental assumption that spiritual and intellectual evolution is as much under Law in its processes and resultants as physical evolution, and that the latter is but the shadow and the reflex of the mental, as the mental is of the spiritual.=20 He has to recognize the inevitable corollary of these propositions, that Life, individual as well as collective, is continuous, and that the infinit= e course of spiritual, mental, and physical evolution has produced Beings as much superior to man as man is superior to a black beetle -- and, finally, that these Beings take an active part in "the government of the natural order of things." The student will find that Western religious history and Western tradition and myth do, indeed, present an immense literature dealing with gods, angels, demons, fairies, and so on, and with their relations to human being= s and human affairs, but such beings and their interventions are regarded either as miraculous or fictitious, and belief in them rests either on the grounds of "revelation" or of mere opinions ingrained from childhood, or of some misunderstood personal psychological experience.=20 ADEPTS, KARMA, REINCARNATION, LAWS OF EVOLUTION=20 Nowhere is there any philosophy, any scientific, any logical, any historica= l evidence or basis for the existence and action of superhuman and subhuman entities as the product of evolutionary Law.=20 Such a theory or such a fact is as unknown or as derided in the West, as foreign to its basic concepts, as the ideas of pre-existence, metempsychosis, reincarnation, Karma, continuous immortality - all integral and inseparable parts of the fundamental assumptions connected with the esoteric aspects of the Theosophical Movement.=20 Only when all these are recognized, at least as a working hypothesis, does the expression, "the esoteric side of the Theosophical Movement," become tolerable in any but a materialistic sense.=20 The student is compelled to turn aside from the religion, philosophy, and thought of the day and familiarize himself with the recorded philosophy of Theosophy, if he is to view the facts of record in any other light than tha= t of the well-nigh universal preconceptions of the Western race. =20 It is only through the most careful and conscientious study and application of the teachings of Theosophy that the student can hope to penetrate beyond the visible aspects of the Theosophical Movement to the arcana of the intellectual and spiritual factors and forces which constitute the Occult side of that Movement.=20 ADEPTS The first direct affirmation of the existence of Adepts, Beings perfected spiritually, intellectually, and physically, the flower of human and all evolution, is, so far as the Western world is concerned, to be found in the opening sentence of "Isis Unveiled."=20 >From beginning to end that work is strewn with evidences, arguments, and declarations regarding Adepts and their doctrines. Theosophy is declared to be a portion of Their Wisdom; its teachings are presented for the examination and study of the world and of the Fellows of the Theosophical Society. I hope this is of help, Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: Mauri=20 Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004=20 To:=20 Subject: re karma in relation to expression, Theosophy Sometimes I wish HPB were available for=20 comment on this list. Every so often I=20 find myself wanting to send some=20 speculative tangent her way in response=20 to something she wrote. Not that she=20 might particularly want to be on the=20 receiving end of my speculative=20 tangents, but ... On the other hand I=20 think I would prefer some updated=20 version of HPB, generally speaking.=20 While I feel that some things haven't=20 changed since the 19th century, I feel=20 that some things have changed enough so=20 that a somewhat different approach=20 toward Theosophical topics in general=20 might be generally or occasionally seen=20 as somewhat more applicable. Not that=20 I'm referring to my speculative tangents=20 as an example of that kind of "different=20 approach," in that I suspect we all have=20 our own notions about how to be=20 applicable, Theosophical, etc (obviously=20 enough ...). Besides, in my case,=20 "applicability" might occasionally get=20 somewhat spculatively tangentialized,=20 among other things, I suspect. I seem to=20 think that, occasionally, some of the=20 things I try to express in print might=20 be more important to me (if not to=20 anybody else) than would be my attempts=20 at making "serious compromises" towards=20 being "understandable enough" or "more=20 understandable" for everybody. On the=20 other hand, or first hand ... ^:-/ ...=20 As far as I can see or speculate, the=20 exoteric/literal interpretive aspects of=20 Theosophy appear to generally lead to=20 dead or neutral ends, basically, (in=20 their "dead letter" sense, as HPB=20 might've put it ...), though I'm not at=20 all sure about whether the "average=20 student of Theosophy," eg, might be all=20 that literal in their interpretations=20 (contrary to some "outward appearances,"=20 maybe ...). What if the various=20 "apparent literal interpretations" were=20 seen as the products of those who were=20 unable to express themselves any other=20 way so that, while they may have had=20 "other/deeper insights," say, what if=20 they were unable to express themselves=20 other than in ways suggestive of certain=20 kinds of literal interpretations to some=20 people ... I suspect that some people=20 may have evolved towards values and=20 forms of expression that may appear to=20 be "outwardly" different than might be=20 expressed by way of mainstream or more-=20 traditional or "more esoteric"=20 Theosophical terminology, but that,=20 aside from those differences, the core=20 values might be essentially similar or=20 same in some cases. If one is willing=20 to consider that possibility, wouldn't=20 one be equally willing to at least keep=20 an open mind when encountering various=20 forms of expression ... I suspect that=20 HPB's statement to the effect that=20 "Theosophy is altruism pure and simple"=20 might have been in reference to a kind=20 of broader perspective that, in its way,=20 when understood, might in a way=20 "beneficially transcend" some or many of=20 one's existing, comparatively=20 more-limited interpretive=20 habits/patterns. I feel that the same=20 kind of reasoning might be applied in=20 principle, in some cases, by some=20 people, to various kinds of literature=20 that may at first not appear to be=20 particularly or at all compatible with=20 Theosophy. Speculatively, Mauri From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Dec 28 06:10:05 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 96718 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 14:10:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 14:10:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 14:10:05 -0000 Received: from [216.244.6.88] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CjI2r-0001zF-4Q; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:09:59 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Importance; b=ErChQlgiyFDP/w7K3NvJZKwNTv15ab6wEPIq+upkoOxVlj+3VMyA/yFgVMcHhcBC; To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:09:42 -0800 Message-ID: <002e01c4ece6$e75977d0$5806f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec798174da72a224ed8c78e1664c7d0429ea350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.67 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 216.244.6.88 Subject: RE: Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 27, 2004 Dear Friend Anand: Somehow I think you are missing the point. Do you think you are aiding the cause of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY ?=20=20 Don't you think that the TS exists because of THEOSOPHY ?=20=20 I wonder if you know what THEOSOPHY is ?=20=20 Have you actually read H P B's The KEY TO THEOSOPHY ? I think about what you write. You are an enthusiast for the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY, which is good, providing you know what the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY actually stands for. But, you will have to pardon me, as it seems from what you write you are ignorant of many of the aspects of the history of recent THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (1875 to date), or you would not make some of the baseless and inaccurate statements that you do.=20=20 It is also quite apparent that you have read little or nothing of what W. Q= . Judge wrote. Your question, as phrased by you, is redundant, provocative a= s well as unbrotherly. Do you know that Mr. Judge was one of the founders of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY?=20=20 You appear to me, excuse the characterization, to be a brash newcomer with much to learn, and, instead of asking questions you produce inaccurate statements. I wonder what the senior members of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY think of them?=20 May I suggest some study and a more careful set of expressions?=20 Further: Have you observed that the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY was originated to fulfil three objects?=20=20 "ENQUIRER. What are the objects of the "Theosophical Society"?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. They are three, and have been so from the beginning. (1.) To form the nucleus of a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity without distinction of race, colour, or creed.=20 2.) To promote the study of Aryan and other Scriptures, of the World's religion and sciences, and to vindicate the importance of old Asiatic literature, namely, of the Brahmanical, Buddhist, and Zoroastrian philosophies.=20 (3.) To investigate the hidden mysteries of Nature under every aspect possible, and the psychic and spiritual powers latent in man especially.=20 These are, broadly stated, the three chief objects of the Theosophical Society." The KEY TO THEOSOPHY p. 39. If one desires to discover what THEOSOPHY is, then by studying the basic books and articles written by Mme. H P Blavatsky, the accredited Agent of the Masters of Wisdom, you may discover a part of the following: FUNDAMENTAL DOCTRINES OF THEOSOPHY=20=20=20 1.) the individual immortality of all Monads that fill the entirety of Space, this includes the least as well as the highest of Spiritual Souls;=20 2.) the common bond of Karma (law) which serves as a basis for all interaction, as it unites the causal motives for all action, done by anything or anyone, with the exact results returning to the individual bein= g that generated them;=20=20 3.) a process of evolution that is continuous and extends from the smallest part of the vast UNIVERSE to its utmost limits, the least has the same potentials of the most advanced; and is for ever in contact with ever= y other entity or part of the whole Universe; =20 4.) a common goal for all units has been called: SPIRITUAL PERFECTION. It is open for all, and embraces all that can be known of the Universe and its uncountable components. That is: Maha-Buddhi, or, Universal WISDOM. As far as I can determine, there is no "Judge Society."=20=20 1 What do you mean by that designation?=20=20 2 How do you detect any "hatred" of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY ?=20=20 H P B, Olcott and Judge were the only three of the original founders of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY (1875) in New York who sustained and maintained it til= l their death. Mr. Judge was appointed Vice President of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY by Olcott. This was done on the basis of the Masters' order.=20 "1888, Dec. 27-29th WQJ Appointed Vice-President T.S. On December 27-29th, 1888 at a customary, but informal, annual Convention held at the T S Adyar Headquarters, Col. Olcott PTS nominated Mr= . Judge Vice-President. (CWB X, p. XXVIII).=20=20 1888=09=09 Another resolution was passed on a policy of reorganizing the T S on lines of autonomous Sections. In 1890 Mr. Judge was officially elected Vice-President under new Rules made by the General Council T S under Col. Olcott. OLD DIARY LEAVES, Vol. IV, pp. 74-83." As far as I can see and read, I detect I all that has been written, a constant proffer of assistance and a constant gentle urging to all its membership to study THEOSOPHY and know exactly what it is. Further, to kno= w their own history, objectives and development.=20 In this connection I suggest you read The THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (1875-1950)= . (350 pages) I believed it costs about $ 7.50 plus postage. It is also available at most Theosophical libraries.=20 Early in the KEY to THEOSOPHY, H. P. Blavatsky writes to establish some basis in the mind of the reader of what Theosophy stands for.=20 In part, she states: THEOSOPHY IS GODLIKE WISDOM, the word "Theosophy" was found used by Pythagoras, a contemporary of Gautama the Buddha. It is divine knowledge o= r science, such as that possessed by the "Gods." ITS FIRST OBJECT IS TO INCULCATE CERTAIN GREAT MORAL TRUTHS upon its disciples.=20=20 Other objects are: TO RECONCILE ALL RELIGIONS.under a common system of ethics, based on eternal verities.=20 And by demonstrating their identical origin, to establish one universal creed based on ethics. Additionally it aims to reinstate and restore to its primitive integrity the wisdom of the ancients. The WISDOM RELIGION (Theosophy) was ever one, and being the last word of possible human thought, was therefore carefully preserved It will survive every other religion and philosophy. Ancient theosophists claimed that the divine essence could be communicated to the higher Spiritual Self in a state of ecstasy. The latter (also named "samadhi") is practised by its devotees. It is an incessant endeavour to purify and elevate the mind. It is: "the ardent turning of the soul, towards the divine;" not to ask for any particular good, but for the universal Supreme Good for ALL.=20=20 It states that those ETHICS ARE THE SOUL OF THE WISDOM RELIGION, and are th= e common property of the initiates of all nations. Sri Krishna the great Avatar proclaimed them at the beginning of the present "Kali Yuga" in his "Gita - song" -- teaching them to Arjuna. And we are all "Arjunas," His pupils.=20 But Gautama Buddha was the first to embody those in his public teachings. I= t is the ethics of the Universe, that have always been the most insisted upon= . All these are now called "Theosophical doctrines," because they form part o= f the knowledge of the initiates.=20 These doctrines belong exclusively to no religion, and are confined to no society or time. They are the birthright of every human soul. Those who have imagined Theosophy to be a new religion have hunted in vain for its creed and ritual.=20 Its creed is Loyalty to Truth, and its ritual "To honor every truth by use.= " The THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY was organized on this one principle, the essential Brotherhood of Man. We hold to no religion, as to no philosophy in particular: we cull the good we find in each. The T S was established as a philanthropic and scientific body for the propagation of the ideas of brotherhood on a practical instead of theoretical lines. The T S cannot make a Theosophist of one who has no sense for the divine fitness of things.=20=20 "THEOSOPHIST IS, WHO THEOSOPHY DOES." How is this to be accomplished by those individuals who determine to adopt this as their personally policy of life?=20=20 It is a difficult undertaking, as the foremost rule is the entire renunciation of one's personality. He has to become a thorough altruist, never to think of himself, and to forget his own vanity and pride in the thought of the good of his fellow creatures, to live a life of abstinence i= n everything, of self-denial and strict morality, doing his duty by all men. If one asks what advantages are received from such a program, the answer is given: "deriving much strength from mutual aid and sympathy."=20=20=20 UNION IS STRENGTH AND HARMONY, AND WELL-REGULATED SIMULTANEOUS EFFORTS PRODUCE WONDERS.=20=20 This has been the secret of all associations and communities since mankind existed. Its aims and true goal are several, primarily the relief of human suffering, moral as well as physical. Theosophy has to inculcate ethics; it has to purify the soul, if it would relieve the physical body.=20 AN OCCULTIST PRACTICES SCIENTIFIC THEOSOPHY, BASED ON AN ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE OF NATURE'S SECRET WORKINGS.=20=20 The divine spark in man being one and identical in its essence with the Universal Spirit, our "spiritual Self" is practically omniscient, but it cannot manifest its knowledge owing to the impediments of matter. The more these impediments are removed, the physical body paralyzed, as to its own independent activity and consciousness, the more fully can the Inner Self manifest on this plane.=20 OUR BELIEFS ARE ALL FOUNDED ON THAT IMMORTAL INDIVIDUALITY.=20=20 Spirit is potential matter, and matter is simply crystallized Spirit, yet the original and eternal condition of all is not Spirit, but META-SPIRIT (visible and solid matter being simply its periodical manifestations) we maintain that the term Spirit can only be applied to the True Individuality= . SELFISHNESS IS ESSENTIALLY CONSERVATIVE and hates being disturbed. The power of mental inertia is great in anything that does not promise immediat= e benefit and reward. Our age is predominately unspiritual, and matter of fact.=20=20 Some Theosophical doctrines contradict flatly many of the human vagaries cherished by sectarians -- vagaries and errors which have eaten into the core, the very heart of popular beliefs.=20 The result is that AN ENTIRELY UNSELFISH CODE APPEALS TO A VERY LIMITED CLASS -- thus producing slow, up-hill results.=20 It is essentially the philosophy of those who suffer, and have lost all hop= e of being helped out of the mire of life by any other means.. To me it is important that the philosophy and the logic of Nature be expose= d and referred to, rather than any opinion, mine or another's. Opinions fluctuate. Facts are stable. In a sentence: We are born this life into a condition, a nation, a community, which enables us under karma (which we created for ourselves by past choosing) to receive and make the best learning change for our own advance. Additionally, with knowledge that is true and universal, our choices can be molded to assist all we are connected to. In this we will be true brothers and helpful as a quiet example to all. To 'understand' another means to be able to mentally step into their "shoes= " and perceive their source of opinion. Then weighing ours and theirs (opinions) we can refer them to an ideal -- a moral norm. From that we can derive at least for ourselves what we ought to do. I hope this is of help, Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D PS JUDGE AS FOUNDER AND VICE PRESIDENT of the T S=20 ORIGINAL FOUNDERS of the T S in 1875 Names And History The following sixteen persons were the ones who during a meeting on September 8, 1875 took the decision of founding the Theosophical Society. HELENA P. BLAVATSKY Cor. Secy. - died May 8, 1891 HENRY S. OLCOTT P T S - died February 7, 1907 (?) W. L. ALDEN - left the T.S. on 1881. Mrs. EMMA HARDINGE BRITTEN -- left the Society very soon but she had a certain amount of contact with its leaders until 1890. DR. W. BRITTEN -- husband of Mrs. Emma, left the T.S. early. JOHN STORER COBB -- in 1878 he lost interest and disappeared. GEORGE H. FELT - in 1877 he was in England proposing the formation of a Society for occult research with himself as President. Nothing came of thi= s proposal; no additional information H. HYSLOP -- he placed his signature; no more information WILLIAM QUAN JUDGE -- He became one of the most important figures in the Society. "Difficulties" arose after the death of HPB, which led to the independence of the American Section of the T S, renamed The THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY in America in 1895.. Mr. Judge died March 25, 1896. D. E. DE LARA -- learned gentleman of Portuguese -Hebrew extraction; he seems to have remained a member till he died. CHARLES CARLETON MASSEY - English barrister and literateur. Left the T.S. in 1879; died 1905.=20 HERBERT D. MONACHESI -- a newspaper reporter; Italian by birth; dropped out. HENRY J. NEWTON -- elected Treasurer; withdrew when he found nobody was going to show him either Adepts or elementals. C. E. SIMMONS -- a well-known New York physician; no more information. CHARLES SOTHERAN -- after HPB and HSO left for India, no mention about him= . H. M. STEVENS -- he placed his signature; no more information -------------------------------- Other founders who were not present on the September 8, 1975 meeting were: Dr. Seth Pancoast -- remained a member till he passed away in 1889.=20 Judge R. B. Westbrook - in 1877 he was made Vice-President of the Theosophical Society; no more information. Rev. J. H. Wiggin - resigned before end 1875. ---------------------------------------- see BLAVATSKY: Collected Works (TPH) Vol. 1 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D NOTE by Dallas TenBroeck The "difficulties" were created by vague charges and accusations made by Mrs. Annie Besant concerning Mr. W. Q. Judge as Vice-President T S in 1894. Mr. Judge, Vice-President T S was exonerated of all charges in London, July 1894 by a Judicial Committee headed by Col. Olcott, P T S. He did not "lead a secession"=20=20 Col. Olcott had granted the American Section leave to form a separate Section. [Per letter seen and described and printed by Mr. Smythe of Canad= a T S who was present when it was received by Mr. Judge in New York -- published in CANADIAN THEOSOPHIST. Col. Olcott granted the American Sectio= n leave to form an independent Section for efficiency in administrative processes, owing to the large size of that Section.] Further details are -------------------------------- ON AUTONOMY [ The following quotations deserve their place here in view of the assertio= n still made in the T S, Adyar that The American Theosophists and Mr. W.Q.Judge "seceded" from the T.S. --DTB ] A 1893 Letter from Col. Olcott Mr. A.E.S. Smythe, President T S in Canada, wrote the Editors of THEOSOPHY [ reported on p. 11 of the March 15th issue of Canadian Theosophist, for 1923, Vol. 4, # 1 ] quoting a letter addressed in 1893 by Col. Olcott, P.T.S. to Mr. Judge in which he read the following : "If you want separate Theosophical Societies made out of the=20=09 Sections, have them by all means. I offered this years ago=20=09 to H.P.B. and even to A.P.S." [ from: Olcott, P T S ] In the Canadian Theosophist, Vol. X, July 1929, pp 156-7 Mr. A.E.S.Smythe, President wrote: "The splitting of the Society was the act of Colonel Olcott who hated Judge= . Judge had expected that the Colonel would recognize the autonomous T.S. in America and affiliate it with Adyar, but Olcott changed his mind and refuse= d to do this, and Judge...was much disappointed with the Colonel's refusal. = =20 I was in the office at 144 Madison Avenue when Judge received a letter from Olcott postmarked and stamped from Spain, and Judge remarked 'Now everythin= g will be all right.' But the letter was not what Judge expected and his disappointment was very obvious. This phase of the situation has never bee= n explained, and I have never been able to learn whether Judge counted with warrant on Olcott's support, or whether it was really a right-about-face on Olcott's part, for Judge certainly expected Olcott to support him. Judge had collected $ 17,000.00 in America and sent it to Olcott when the Adyar treasurer embezzled that amount...Judge and Besant were all right till H.P.B. died and we can honour and depend upon them up till that point. After May 8, 1891 we have had to depend upon ourselves and should be charitable to our neighbours." -- A. E. S. Smythe. " [ From HPB: "Why I do not Return to India" -- letter=20 April, 1890 "...the name alone of the holy Masters...has wrought a mighty change for th= e better in your land [India]...so long as I remained at Adyar, things went o= n smoothly enough, because one or other of the Masters was almost constantly present among us, and their spirit ever protected the T.S. from real harm...[1884] It was during that time and Colonel Olcott's absence in Burma= , that the seeds of all future strifes, and...disintegration of the T.S., wer= e planned by our enemies... I say, at that critical moment, if the members of the Society, and especially its leaders at Adyar, Hindu and European, had stood together as one man, firm in their conviction of the reality and powe= r of the Masters, Theosophy would have come out more triumphantly than ever, and none of their fears would have ever been realized...In spite of my protests, I was hurried away from Headquarters... and immediately intrigues and rumors began...it was rumored that I had been abandoned by the Masters, been disloyal to Them...I was accused of being, at best, a hallucinated medium, who had mistaken "spooks" for living Masters...others declared that the real H.P.Blavatsky was dead...and that the form had been forthwith seized upon by a Dugpa Chela...I was a witch, a sorceress...In fact the powers of psychology attributed to me by my enemies...are so great that the= y alone would have made of me a most remarkable Adept--independently of any Masters or Mahatmas, with the exception of Colonel Olcott, everyone seemed to banish the Masters from their thoughts and Their spirit from Adyar...since my departure...the activity of the movement there gradually slackened... =20 Acting under Master's orders I began a new movement in the West on the original lines; I founded Lucifer, and the Lodge which bears my name...I learned that I was once more wanted in India--at any rate by some. But the invitation came too late; neither would my doctor permit it, nor can I, if I would remain true to my life-pledge and vows, now live at the Headquarter= s from which the Masters and Their spirit are virtually banished. The presence of Their portraits will not help; They are a dead letter...no advice of mine on occult lines seems likely to be accepted, as the fact of my relations with the Masters is doubted, even totally denied by some...the spread of Theosophy and of the T.S. in the West, during the last three years, has been extraordinary...I was enabled and encouraged by the devotio= n of an ever increasing number of members to the Cause and to Those who guide it, to establish an Esoteric Section, in which I can teach something of wha= t I have learned to those who have confidence in me, and who prove this by their disinterested work for Theosophy and the T.S. The only claim, therefore, which India could ever have upon me would be strong only in proportion to the activity of the Fellows there for Theosophy and their loyalty to the Masters. Thenceforth let it be clearly understood that the rest of my life is devote= d only to those who believe in the Masters, and are willing to work for Theosophy as They understand it, and for the T.S. on the lines upon which They originally established it. -- HPB "WHY I DO NOT RETURN TO INDIA" [ This letter from HPB was written and sent with B. Keightley, April 1890. Published in Theosophist, January 1922. HPB Articles I, pp., 108 - 114 ] "...the Esoteric Section has nothing whatever to do with the T.S., its Council or officers. It is a Section entirely apart from the exoteric body= , and independent of it. H.P.B. alone being responsible for its members...th= e E.S. as a body, owes no allegiance whatever to the T.S., as a Society, leas= t of all to Adyar...H.P.B. is loyal to the death to the Theosophical CAUSE, and those great Teachers whose philosophy can alone bind the whole of Humanity into one Brotherhood...Therefore the degree of her sympathies with the "T.S. and Adyar" depends upon the degree of the loyalty of that Society to the CAUSE. Let it break away from the original lines and show disloyalt= y in its policy to the CAUSE and the original programme of the Society, and H.P.B. calling the T.S. disloyal, will shake it off like dust from her feet= . And what does "loyalty to Adyar" mean, in the name of all wonders? What is Adyar, apart from that CAUSE and the two (not one Founder) who represent it ? ... =20 There is no longer a "Parent Society;" it is abolished and replaced by an aggregate body of Theosophical societies, all autonomous, as are the States of America, and all under one Head President, who, together with H.P.Blavatsky, will champion the Cause against the whole world. Such is th= e real state of things...a Council which is liable at any moment to issue silly and untheosophical ukases...in a Society which owes its life to them [she and Col. Olcott], and for which they are both karmically responsible...she will ever protest against the decision of the General Council, were it composed of Archangels and Dhyan Chohans themselves, if their decisions seem to her unjust or untheosophical, or fails to meet with the approval of the majority of the Fellows. No more than H.P.Blavatsky ha= s the President Founder the right to exercise autocracy or papal powers...It is the two Founders and especially the President, who have virtually sworn allegiance to the Fellows, whom they have to protect, and teach those who want to be taught, and not to tyrannize and rule over them."=09 -- H P B "A PUZZLE FROM ADYAR" Lucifer, Aug. 1889 HPB Articles, Vol. I, pp. 219-220 "...Sections and Branches like the "London Lodge" and others which are autonomous...Is not the Blavatsky Lodge, like the London, Dublin, or any other "Lodge," a branch of, and a Theosophical Society ?" HPB Articles I 221 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: Anand Gholap=20 Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 2:45 PM To:=20 Subject: Did Judge teach hatred ? It can be easily observed that many members of Judge Society spend=20 half the time in criticizing leaders of Adyar TS.=20 Is this what Judge taught ?=20 Anand Gholap From arasophia@yahoo.com Tue Dec 28 08:21:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: arasophia@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86372 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 16:21:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 16:21:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.24) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 16:21:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n13.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 16:21:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.123] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 16:21:08 -0000 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:21:07 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 688 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.24 From: "Koshek Swaminathan" X-Originating-IP: 61.11.73.47 Subject: Re: Has the Tidal Wave flooded Adyar? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=167174189 X-Yahoo-Profile: arasophia Hello Daniel and all, Parts of Besant Nagar, Adyar was affected - early morning beach walkers and children playing cricket were washed away. Families had to abandon their homes. Fishermen were the most hit. But as for the rest of Adyar, it remained untouched. The TS grounds are intact, though the gate to the beach has been closed. TOS here is very busy. Fraternaly, Koshek "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: Dear Koshek Swaminathan Are the people at Adyar okay after the tidal waves shown on the news? We are concerned. Let us know what is happening and maybe you can post something on Theos-Talk if you still have access to the Internet. Daniel From ringding777@t-online.de Tue Dec 28 11:13:13 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding777@t-online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 25771 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 19:13:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 19:13:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout01.sul.t-online.com) (194.25.134.80) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 19:13:12 -0000 Received: from fwd04.aul.t-online.de by mailout01.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CjMmL-0003e8-02; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:13:09 +0100 Received: from captainfb78633 (ZwRLHUZdoeuVKAJascSsBsqcJHlUGsJDKq7MsRfc2oR+uKeHCcCx6Z@[217.224.220.4]) by fwd04.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CjMm8-1JF7su0; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:12:56 +0100 Message-ID: <006101c4ed11$b1b20f40$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> To: References: <41672C17.8040000@yahoo.com.br> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:16:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ID: ZwRLHUZdoeuVKAJascSsBsqcJHlUGsJDKq7MsRfc2oR+uKeHCcCx6Z X-TOI-MSGID: dabd69a4-d891-4a8b-97b3-5c700c1d9781 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 194.25.134.80 X-eGroups-From: ringding777@t-online.de (Frank Reitemeyer) From: ringding777@t-online.de Subject: Re: More Controversy on LETTERS OF H.P. BLAVATSKY, Volume 1 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=190924709 X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received the following text: legalrightsjournalism wrote: > John Algeo was the Editor of QUEST Magazine when > Radha Burnier forgery of the MAHATMAS LETTER 10 > was published in QUEST Magazine, July/August, 2000: > http://www.theosophical.org/theosophy/questmagazine/julyaugust2000/burnier/index.html > Carefully, read the true MAHATMAS LETTER 10 in: > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm It is quite clear that the Master speaks of the imagined God of the theologists as a "power which has never yet manifested itself." This portion was cutted out in Radha Burnier's quote. Why? Obviously she did not want to trouble her readers by reminding of the Coming-Christ-hoax of Annie Besant, Leadbeater and the two Krishnamurtis! Frank [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Dec 28 12:14:39 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70601 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 20:14:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 20:14:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 20:14:38 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n20.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 20:14:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.173] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 20:14:08 -0000 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:13:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1133 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.49 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Thanks Koshek: Re: Has the Tidal Wave flooded Adyar? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Thanks Koshek for the update. I'm glad that the rest of Adyar is okay but saddened by the deaths of the beach goers, children and the the fishermen and their villages. For the whole region encompassing 10 countries the death toll is already over 44,000 and I'm afraid will continue to climb. Daniel --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Koshek Swaminathan" wrote: > > > > Hello Daniel and all, > > Parts of Besant Nagar, Adyar was affected - early morning beach > walkers and children playing cricket were washed away. Families had > to abandon their homes. Fishermen were the most hit. But as for the > rest of Adyar, it remained untouched. The TS grounds are intact, > though the gate to the beach has been closed. > > TOS here is very busy. > > Fraternaly, > > Koshek > > > > "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > > Dear Koshek Swaminathan > > Are the people at Adyar okay after > the tidal waves shown on the news? > > We are concerned. Let us know > what is happening and maybe you > can post something on Theos-Talk > if you still have access to the Internet. > > Daniel From mhart@idirect.ca Tue Dec 28 12:54:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94212 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 20:54:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 20:54:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 20:54:34 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.189] (helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CjOMI-0006pI-Kf for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:54:22 +0000 Message-ID: <41D1C8C2.9090206@idirect.ca> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:57:38 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on chi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.125 From: Mauri Subject: re forms of Theosophical expression X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn re forms of Theosophical expression Sometimes I wish HPB were available for comment on these lists. Every so often I find myself wanting to send some speculative tangent her way in response to something she wrote. Not that she might particularly want to be on the receiving end of my speculative tangents, but ... On the other hand I think I would prefer some updated version of HPB, generally speaking, if I had a choice. While I feel that some things haven't changed since the 19th century, I feel that some things have changed enough so that a somewhat different approach toward Theosophical topics in general might be generally or occasionally seen as somewhat more applicable. In any case I suspect that we all have our own notions about how to be applicable, Theosophical, etc (obviously enough ...). In my case "applicability" might be seen to occasionally get somewhat speculatively knotted to some extent, among other things, I suspect, judging by some of the responses or lack of responses. I seem to think that, occasionally, some of the things I try to express in print might be more important to me (if not to anybody else) than would be my attempts at making certain kinds of what might be called "serious compromises" or "more concerted efforts" towards being "understandable enough" or "more understandable" in more-mainstream terms. On the other hand, as far as I can see or speculate, the exoteric/literal interpretive aspects (and thereby the forms of expression) of Theosophy appear to generally lead to dead or neutral ends, basically, (in their "dead letter" sense, as HPB might've put it ...), though I'm not at all sure about whether the "average student of Theosophy," eg, might be all that literal in their interpretations (contrary to some "outward appearances," maybe ...). What if the various "apparent literal interpretations" were seen as the products of those who were unable to express themselves any other way so that, while they may have had "other/deeper insights," say, what if they were unable to express themselves other than in ways suggestive of certain kinds of literal interpretations to some people ... I suspect that some people may have evolved towards values and forms of expression that may appear to be "outwardly" different than might be expressed by way of mainstream or more- traditional or "more esoteric" Theosophical phraseology, but that, aside from those differences, the core values might be essentially similar or same in some cases. If one is willing to consider that possibility, wouldn't one be equally willing to at least keep an open mind to some extent when encountering various forms of expression that one is not particularly familiar with ... I suspect that HPB's statement to the effect that "Theosophy is altruism pure and simple" might have been in reference to a kind of broader perspective that, in its way, when understood, might be seen to "beneficially transcend" or in some ways rise above some or many of one's existing, comparatively more limited and more entrenched interpretive habits/patterns or karma. I feel that the same kind of reasoning might be applied in principle, in some cases, by some people, to various kinds of literature that may at first not always appear to be particularly or at all compatible with one's notions about some Theosophical principles. Speculatively, Mauri From mhart@idirect.ca Tue Dec 28 14:44:56 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 11209 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 22:44:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 22:44:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.122) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 22:44:55 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.104] (helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CjQ55-0000ga-S7 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:44:44 +0000 Message-ID: <41D1E2A1.6090700@idirect.ca> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:48:01 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on chi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.122 From: Mauri Subject: re Zakk's "Brotherhood & Truth" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Zakk wrote, in part: <> Okay, but I wonder if some students of Theosophy might prefer what to them might seem like a somewhat less sexually biased-sounding word/s in place of "brotherhood" in that context, seeing as this is the 21st century, (among other things ...). I like to think that, in a way, my "forms of Theosophical expression" post addresses some concerns in relation to what might be called "brotherhood," among other things. Speculatively, Mauri From mhart@idirect.ca Tue Dec 28 14:57:56 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31979 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 22:57:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 22:57:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.122) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 22:57:55 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.191] (helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CjQHo-0003wo-1f; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:57:52 +0000 Message-ID: <41D1E5B5.8080709@idirect.ca> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:01:09 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Cc: AA-BNStudy References: <002301c4ece6$d0de0160$5806f4d8@DALLAS> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on chi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.122 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: re karma in relation to expression, Theosophy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn W.Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > Dec 28 2004 > > > Dear Mauri: > > > HPB is with us if we only go to her and try to find out what she already > said: > > For instance: W.Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > Dec 28 2004 > > > Dear Mauri: > > > HPB is with us if we only go to her and try to find out what she already > said: > > For instance: Thanks for the quotes, Dallas. I rewrote that Theosophy Study List post you quoted, then submitted it to the three lists as "forms of Theosophical expression." Sorry about the first version. Not that I might not think of rewriting the latest version at some point. Speculatively, Mauri From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Tue Dec 28 15:07:54 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 30284 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 23:07:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 23:07:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.16) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 23:07:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n11.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 23:07:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.167] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 23:07:53 -0000 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:07:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41D1C8C2.9090206@idirect.ca> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 363 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.16 From: "prmoliveira" X-Originating-IP: 150.101.201.135 Subject: Re: re forms of Theosophical expression X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617 X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Mauri wrote: > Sometimes I wish HPB were available for > comment on these lists. Every so often > I find myself wanting to send some > speculative tangent her way in response > to something she wrote. How can you be sure she isn't? Why don't you send your speculative tangents? *She* might reply. Pedro From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Dec 28 15:53:34 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63913 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 23:53:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 23:53:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 23:53:33 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CjR9h-0005Tq-9z for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:53:33 -0500 Message-ID: <41D1F204.6000507@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:53:40 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <1da.3288d2d8.2f01a906@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <1da.3288d2d8.2f01a906@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba39b708c5b0e1a473ef08324349baa747f0dc0b2615eb44cc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > << TOS, COS, or medieval (is Michael Aquino still alive? I haven't heard > from him in years). >> > All of the above. I have lots of strange fans. (Michael Aquino being one of > them and to the best of my knowledge he's still alive though he stepped down > from the Temple of Set leadership some years ago.) I wouldn't call Mr. Aquino a fan of mine (and I am not a fan of his), but we HAVE had some good correspondence in the past. Bart From silva_cass@yahoo.com Tue Dec 28 17:01:29 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13527 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2004 01:01:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2004 01:01:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.79) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2004 01:01:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 90904 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Dec 2004 01:01:28 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=yMWvE5z64dtkuE1a2DOWTENYrSnQgEAschXysqCSEN5jHX/T8AFMyeze3+lOVwDmOTu0eEwTpOhH6YNmal5j4HTneDDSeJxOeU3bqxSzNHemIVh5G0b3ELXAgO3gwKfb/olSD1GHGmVuhke+xoZcLKvmYPIy5Lk22582/zBxG3A= ; Message-ID: <20041229010128.90902.qmail@web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:01:28 PST Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:01:28 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <1ad.2deac26b.2f028175@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.79 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World How fractal evolution works - part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Leon Another question, It seems to me that we, like IT, are in manifestation to "know that we know= ourselves". When we die and are in a purely subjective state we cannot ve= rify our own existence but only know that subjective state of all knowing w= ithout verification (when we are dead). I am not looking forward to that, = a little centre of consciousness, ruminating on past lives and ,making vows= to "do things differently, next time", without being able to say to someon= e, "Hey, what do you think?" >From a little point of consciousnessess point of view, I think it could get= pretty lonely being omniscient. Cass =20 =20 =20 leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: Dear Cass,=20 Since you seem to get the point, I have no wonder about where you are comin= g=20 from. You are right, the knowing flows in both directions, the manifestatio= n=20 (us) must know itself while the self (it) that created the manifestation mu= st=20 know its creation. That is the nature of thought thinking within itself...= =20 And, why we know we are conscious and know that we know we are conscious. T= hus,=20 the thinker in us is the thought of the thinker who thought us up. I hope t= hat=20 clears things up a bit about where I'm coming from. :-)=20 Leon=20 In a message dated 12/25/04 9:14:57 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: > >Dear Leon >If you are wondering where I am coming from, it is=20 >NOT THAT "IT" CAN KNOW "ITSELF" - MANIFESTATION - THE CAUSE >BUT THAT "ITSELF" CAN KNOW "IT" - THE EFFECTS OF MANIFESTION >Cass Dear Leon If you are wondering where I am coming from, it is=20 NOT THAT "IT" CAN KNOW "ITSELF" - MANIFESTATION - THE CAUSE BUT THAT "ITSELF" CAN KNOW "IT" - THE EFFECTS OF MANIFESTION Cass leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: Mauri, thanks for the good wishes. But, even if I am beating my head agains= t=20 a wall, maybe someday a few eager accredited scientists with theosophical=20 leanings might pick up the ABC ideas and incorporate them into their=20 radically=20 new theories -- to come up with a respectable and provable "Unified Field=20 Theory=20 of Everything" that might shake up the rest of them. Then, perhaps, they=20 could start collaborating on building that "pyramid" of theosophically link= ed=20 scientific ideas that might wake up the rest of the world. In the meantime,= =20 all=20 I can do is keep on promulgating the ABC ideas wherever and however the=20 opportunities appear. Recently, I've been contacted by some interested=20 scientists=20 and engineers who are beginning to see some light at the end of the tunnel.= =20 They apparently think that my combining of the source of consciousness with= =20 that=20 of physical matter, and the conjoining of subject with object, linking mind= =20 to brain and awareness to will or intent, is just what's missing in their=20 respective theories. As we begin to combine our various directions of=20 thought,=20 we'll see what the future brings. In the interim, I'll keep on plugging awa= y=20 through the various scientific and theosophical forums -- with the hope tha= t=20 some=20 more thinkers and doers might start throwing their two cents in, and giving= =20 us wall bangers a hand with some useful ideas. :-)=20 Best wishes, Leonardo In a message dated 12/17/04 1:21:10 PM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote, in part: >> How fractal evolution works...=20 >> This won't occur until scientists realize that consciousness (as awarene= ss >> and will or intent) is a universal aspect of fundamental reality related= =20 to the=20 >> zero-point itself... That is everywhere (contiguous on the highest level= =20 of=20 >> zero-point energy) and is the central origin of all fields of force...=20 While being=20 >> the basis of the so called "entanglement" or "action at a distance"=20 between=20 >> fundamental quantum particles on any level. With this ultimate=20 understanding >> they will also be able to synthesize information theory with relativity= =20 and=20 >> quantum theories, along with recent theories of Aether physics, plasma >> electrodynamics, holographic paradigm, etc., and come up with an entirel= y >> new and synthetic scientific (physics, biology, cosmology, physiology,=20 etc.) >> paradigm. When all this is accomplished, science will be able to finally= =20 merge=20 >> with religion... And, the rest of Mankind can go about learning these=20 fundamental >> truths, absorbing them (along with the eternality of spirit or self, and= =20 the unity=20 >> and connectedness of all that they imply) into their souls, and cleaning= =20 up=20 >> its act (that is now driving the world toward it ultimate destruction). >>=20 >> Best wishes, >>=20 >> Leon Maurer >> http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics > >Leon, those kinds of efforts remind me=20 >of the efforts of those "gods" like=20 >Osiris during the "First Time" (Zep=20 >Tepi) in ancient Egypt. So maybe if you=20 >were to build a few impressive pyramids=20 > or some kind of equally impressive=20 >things, as well, would that help to=20 >impressive the natives that more is=20 >going on than meets the average native=20 >eye ... ? Not that your ABC's might not=20 >necessarily be seen as impressive=20 >enough, maybe, in some sense, maybe ...=20 >but then if your ABC's get the same kind=20 >of interpretive treatment that the=20 >pyramids have had from orthodox=20 >Egyptologists, well ... ^:-/ ... > >Good Luck, anyway. >Mauri > >PS Been reading Hancocks FINGERPRINTS=20 >OF THE GODS, lately. Fascinating. Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! =96 What will yours do? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samblo@cs.com Tue Dec 28 17:44:02 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 89220 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2004 01:44:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2004 01:44:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m28.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.9) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2004 01:44:01 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.155.46e5d31d (3699) for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:43:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <155.46e5d31d.2f0365d7@cs.com> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:43:51 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.9 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Thanks Koshek: Re: Has the Tidal Wave flooded Adyar? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Daniel, I was on the Phone talking to a friend late night when the news of the Sumatra Quake broke on CNN, as I continued talking I was distracted by an unusual cyclic sound. Taking the phone from my ear I listened carefully, tracking where it was coming from. It turned out it was the 17" Monitor for my XP PC sitting on my right on an 8 foot Virgo Table. I was amazed, though it was not really strong it continued to vibrate like that for about 3 minutes here in Sacramento, Ca., must have been about a 1.5 on the Ritcher Scale. But the fact that it persisted for 3 minutes continuos really got my attention. John From zakkduffany@earthlink.net Tue Dec 28 19:54:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20755 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2004 03:54:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2004 03:54:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.40) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2004 03:54:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Dec 2004 03:54:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.152] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Dec 2004 03:54:10 -0000 X-Sender: zakkduffany@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69196 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2004 02:58:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2004 02:58:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.69) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2004 02:58:03 -0000 Received: from [63.159.120.108] (helo=downunder) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CjU29-0008Mx-Hr for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:57:58 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=jCMJUj3ZKtBSkUyObh2YqD6GN0Scv3dE57JXvdDnFrdw6Xc6yAqZ6AdCy04GJ8I9; Message-ID: <001001c4ed52$457eb710$6c789f3f@downunder> To: References: <41D1E2A1.6090700@idirect.ca> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:58:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: 6032057824b7a799ff7034cf760bda279ef193a6bfc3dd48a01464089f1b6ed1a0a512ab75d839067c7233ee4b332ceb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.69 From: "Zakk Duffany" Reply-To: "Zakk Duffany" X-Originating-IP: 63.159.120.108 Subject: Re: Theos-World re Zakk's "Brotherhood & Truth" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=196035959 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 29 Dec 2004 03:54:09 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.40 > Zakk wrote, in part: < Brotherhood & Truth, ideals of Theosophy > : >> > >Mauri wrote, in part : Okay, but I wonder if some >students of Theosophy might prefer what to them > might seem like a somewhat less sexually > biased-sounding word/s in place of > "brotherhood" in that context, seeing as > this is the 21st century, (among other > things ...). << The term brother can be taken as a male. It can also be defined as a fellow member of a race, profession, org., etc. Brotherly can be defined as friendly versus a depicting of a male. The intent from it's usage usually assists in the defining. Although I do not have any issue with using another term instead of brotherhood, I simply do not know of any that is used. I think it may be a mind that is biased-based that would take the term in a bias manner, no matter what century one may be experiencing. In the past I have used the term siblings versus brothers on many ocassions. To incorporate that into the term siblinghood may appease the sexually or gender orientated. I do not know. Until another term is accepted and utilized in replacement of brotherhood, how is one to refer to it? I would be quite open to suggestions. I do not think that the students of Theosophy would prefer eliminating the term brotherhood from written material and replacing it with another. What the term entails, and what is meant by it, is clearly expressed in the writings. There may exist many terms in which an individual may find biased or improper or something similar. How many terms should be replaced or redefined to satisfy all persons? Is it even possible? It would seem easier to accept the meaning of the term in which it is presented. It is not that I do not understand that in which you saying, but if one word is justified in changing, why not two? Or three? Or a hundred? I personally have no preference to terms as long as the meaning is clear so communication can be also. I am only looking at the possible complications that can arise. From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Dec 28 20:28:23 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91116 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2004 04:28:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2004 04:28:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d23.mx.aol.com) (205.188.139.137) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2004 04:28:21 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.195.356bf751 (4320) for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:28:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <195.356bf751.2f038c5a@aol.com> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:28:10 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.139.137 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/28/04 5:53:59 PM Central Standard Time, bartl@sprynet.com writes: << I wouldn't call Mr. Aquino a fan of mine (and I am not a fan of his), but we HAVE had some good correspondence in the past. >> I was told years ago that some of my writing had become required reading with some part of the TOS and back in 1998 I did a public ritual invocation of one of the Lovecraftian Old Ones and afterwards someone said that I had stolen part of my material from the TOS whereupon one of the Sethians there said, "No, we stole it from him!" Chuck the Heretic From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Dec 28 20:33:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73089 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2004 04:33:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2004 04:33:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2004 04:33:06 -0000 Received: from [209.179.140.240] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CjVVS-0004RG-EW; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:32:43 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance; b=VoQU5egDIBEwxwYxrTzZUsQ+elMhs/k95ymedClwho755/IP0t8JM2HngPDVHOxR; To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:32:10 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c4ed5f$61e992f0$f08cb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79cbbc8bd2ca6d71668a51b6b99a899f41350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.140.240 Subject: Part 3 -- Astral & Psychic Phenomena X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dec 28 2004 Part 3 -- Astral & Psychic Phenomena PSYCHIC LAWS, FORCES, AND PHENOMENA WHAT IS THE "PSYCHIC ?" The field of psychic forces, phenomena, and dynamics is a vast one. Such phenomena are seen and the forces exhibited every day in all lands, but until a few years ago very little attention was given to them by scientific persons, while a great deal of ridicule was heaped upon those who related the occurrences or averred belief in the psychic nature. . This lack of an adequate system of Psychology is a natural consequence of the materialistic bias of science and the paralyzing influence of dogmatic religion; the one ridiculing effort and blocking the way, the other forbidding investigation. Real psychology is an Oriental product today. Very true the system was known in the West when a very ancient civilization flourished in America, and in certain parts of Europe anterior to the Christian era, but for the present day psychology in its true phase belongs to the ancient Orient. For centuries, what is now called "spiritualism," has been well known in India where it is properly designated "bhuta worship," meaning the attempt to communicate with the Astral remnants of deceased persons. This should be its name here also, for by it the gross and devilish, or earthly, parts of man are excited, appealed to, and communicated with. [The real Man, the divine Ego, has retired to Devachan, and the astral corpse is disintegrating.] But the facts of the long record in America demand a brief examination. These facts all studious Theosophists must admit. The theosophical explanation and deductions, however, are totally different from those of the average spiritualist. A philosophy has not been evolved in the ranks or literature of spiritualism; nothing but theosophy will give the true explanation, point out defects, reveal dangers, and suggest remedies PSYCHIC LAWS AND FORCES Are there psychic forces, laws, and powers? If there are, then there must be the phenomena. And if the philosophy of Theosophy is true, then in man are the same powers and forces which are to be found anywhere in Nature. He is held by the Masters of Wisdom to be the highest product of the whole system of evolution, and mirrors in himself every power, however wonderful or terrible, of Nature; by the very fact of being such a mirror he is man. This has long been recognized in the East, where travellers have seen exhibitions of such powers which would upset the theories of many a Western man of science. And in the West the same phenomena have been repeated. The genuine psychic -- or, as they are often called, magical -- phenomena done by the Eastern faquir or yogee are all performed by the use of natural forces and processes not even dreamed of as yet by the West. LEVITATION AND GRAVITY Levitation of the body in apparent defiance of gravitation is a thing to be done with ease when the process is completely mastered. It contravenes no law. Gravitation is only half of a law. The Oriental sage admits gravity, if one wishes to adopt the term; but the real term is attraction, the other half of the law being expressed by the word repulsion, and both being governed by the great laws of electrical force. Weight and stability depend on polarity, and when the polarity of an object is altered in respect to the earth immediately underneath it, then the object may rise. But as mere objects are devoid of the consciousness found in man, they cannot rise without certain other aids. The human body, however, will rise in the air unsupported, like a bird, when its polarity is thus changed. This change is brought about consciously by a certain system of breathing known to the Oriental; it may be induced also by aid from certain natural forces spoken of later, in the cases of those who without knowing the law perform the phenomena, as with the saints of the Roman Catholic Church. COHESION AND DISPERSION A third great law which enters into many of the phenomena of the East and West is that of Cohesion. The power of Cohesion is a distinct power of itself, and not a result as is supposed. This law and its action must be known if certain phenomena are to be brought about, as, for instance, what the writer has seen, the passing of one solid iron ring through another, or a stone through a solid wall. Hence another force is used which can only be called dispersion. Cohesion is the determinating force, for, the moment the dispersing force is withdrawn, the cohesive force restores the particles to their original position. Following this out the Adept in such great dynamics is able to disperse the atoms of an object -- excluding always the human body -- to such a distance from each other as to render the object invisible, and then can send them along a current formed in the ether to any distance on the earth. At the desired point the dispersing force is withdrawn, when immediately cohesion reasserts itself and the object reappears intact. This may sound like fiction, but being known to the Lodge and its disciples as an actual fact, it is equally certain that Science will sooner or later admit the proposition. PRECIPITATION OF OBJECTS Using the same powers, the trained Adept can produce before the eye, objective to the touch, material which was not visible before, and in any desired shape. This would be called creation by the vulgar, but it is simply evolution in your very presence. Matter is held suspended in the air about us. Every particle of matter, visible or still unprecipitated, has been through all possible forms, and what the Adept does is to select any desired form, existing, as they all do, in the Astral Light and then by effort of the Will and Imagination to clothe the form with the matter by precipitation. The object so made will fade away unless certain other processes are resorted to which need not be here described, but if these processes are used the object will remain permanently. And if it is desired to make visible a message on paper or other surface, the same laws and powers are used. The distinct -- photographically and sharply definite -- image of every line of every letter or picture is formed in the mind, and then out of the air is drawn the pigment to fall within the limits laid down by the brain, "the exhaustless generator of force and form." All these things the writer has seen done in the way described, and not by any hired or irresponsible medium, and he knows whereof he speaks. INSTRUMENTS OF THE MAN OF WILL But the lay mind infested by the materialism of the day wonders how all these manipulations are possible, seeing that no instruments are spoken of. The instruments are in the body and brain of man. In the view of the Lodge "the human brain is an exhaustless generator of force," and a complete knowledge of the inner chemical and dynamic laws of Nature, together with a trained mind, give the possessor the power to operate the laws to which I have referred. A knowledge of the law when added to faith gives power over matter, mind, space, and time. This, then, naturally leads to the proposition that the human Will is all powerful and the Imagination is a most useful faculty with a dynamic force. The Imagination is the picture-making power of the human mind. In the ordinary average human person it has not enough training or force to be more than a sort of dream, but it may be trained. When trained it is the Constructor in the Human Workshop. Arrived at that stage it makes a matrix in the Astral substance through which effects objectively will flow. It is the greatest power, after Will, in the human assemblage of complicated instruments. The modern Western definition of Imagination is incomplete and wide of the mark. It is chiefly used to designate fancy or misconception and at all times stands for unreality. It is impossible to get another term as good because one of the powers of the trained Imagination is that of making an actual image or form which may be then used in the same way as an iron molder uses a mold of sand for the molten iron. It is therefore the King faculty, inasmuch as the Will cannot do its work if the Imagination be at all weak or untrained. For instance, if the person desiring to precipitate from the air wavers in the least with the image made in the Astral substance, the pigment will fall upon the paper in a correspondingly wavering and diffused manner. TELEPATHY To communicate with another mind at any distance the Adept attunes all the molecules of the brain and all the thoughts of the mind so as to vibrate in unison with the mind to be affected, and that other mind and brain have also to be either voluntarily thrown into the same unison or fall into it voluntarily. So though the Adept be at Bombay and his friend in New York, the distance is no obstacle, as the inner senses are not dependent on an ear, but may feel and see the thoughts and images in the mind of the other person. And when it is desired to look into the mind and catch the thoughts of another and the pictures all around him of all he has thought and looked at, the Adept's inner sight and hearing are directed to the mind to be seen, when at once all is visible. But, as said before, only a rogue would do this, and the Adepts do not do it except in strictly authorized cases. The modern man sees no misdemeanor in looking into the secrets of another by means of this power, but the Adepts say it is an invasion of the rights of the other person. No man has the right, even when he has the power in his hand, to enter into the mind of another and pick out its secrets. This is the law of the Lodge to all who seek, and if one sees that he is about to discover the secrets of another he must at once withdraw and proceed no further. If he proceeds his power is taken from him in the case of a disciple; in the case of any other person he must take the consequence of this sort of burglary. For Nature has her laws and her policemen, and if we commit felonies in the Astral world the great Law and the guardians of it, for which no bribery is possible, will execute the penalty, no matter how long we wait, even if it be for ten thousand years. Here is another safeguard for ethics and morals. But until men admit the system of philosophy put forward in this book, they will not deem it wrong to commit felonies in fields where their weak human law has no effect, but at the same time by thus refusing the philosophy they will put off the day when all may have these great powers for the use of all. APPORTATION OF OBJECTS Among phenomena useful to notice are those consisting of the moving of objects without physical contact. This may be done, and in more than one way. The first is to extrude from the physical body the Astral hand and arm, and with those grasp the object to be moved. This may be accomplished at a distance of as much as ten feet from the person. In nearly all cases of such apportation the feat is accomplished by thus using the unseen but material Astral hand. The second method is to use the elementals of which I have spoken. They have the power when directed by the inner man to carry objects by changing the polarity. These elemental entities are used when things are brought from longer distances. THE REALM OF THE ASTRAL ENERGIES AND FORCES The Astral substance being the register of all thoughts, sounds, pictures, and other vibrations, and the inner man being a complete person able to act with or without co-ordination with the physical, all the phenomena of hypnotism, clairvoyance, clairaudience, mediumship, and the rest of those which are not consciously performed may be explained. In the Astral substance are all sounds and pictures, and in the Astral man remain impressions of every event, however remote or insignificant; these acting together produce the phenomena which seem so. Clairvoyance, clairaudience, and second-sight are all related very closely. Every exercise of any one of them draws in at the same time both of the others. They are but variations of one power. Sound is one of the distinguishing characteristics of the Astral sphere, and as light goes with sound, sight obtains simultaneously with hearing. To see an image with the Astral senses means that at the same time there is a sound, and to hear the latter infers the presence of a related image in Astral substance. It is perfectly well known to the true student of occultism that every sound produces instantaneously an image, and this, so long known in the Orient, has lately been demonstrated in the West in the production to the eye of sound pictures on a stretched tympanum. In the Astral Light are pictures of all things whatsoever that happened to any person, and as well also pictures of those events to come the causes for which are sufficiently well marked and made. If the causes are yet indefinite, so will be the images of the future. But for the mass of events for several years to come all the producing and efficient causes are always laid down with enough definiteness to permit the seer to see them in advance as if present. By means of these pictures, all clairvoyants exercise their strange faculty. Yet it is common to all men, though in the majority but slightly developed; but occultism asserts that were it not for the germ of this power slightly active in every one no man could convey to another any idea whatsoever. In clairvoyance the pictures in the Astral Light pass before the inner vision and are reflected into the physical eye from within. They then appear objectively to the seer. If they are of past events or those to come, the picture only is seen; if of events actually then occurring, the scene is perceived through the Astral Light by the inner sense. The distinguishing difference between ordinary and clairvoyant vision is, then, that in clairvoyance with waking sight the vibration is communicated to the brain first, from which it is transmitted to the physical eye, where it sets up an image upon the retina, just as the revolving cylinder of the phonograph causes the mouthpiece to vibrate exactly as the voice had vibrated when thrown into the receiver. In ordinary eye vision the vibrations are given to the eye first and then transmitted to the brain. Images and sounds are both caused by vibrations, and hence any sound once made is preserved in the Astral Light from whence the inner sense can take it and from within transmit it to the brain, from which it reaches the physical ear. Second-sight is a combination of clairaudience and clairvoyance or not, just as the particular case is, and the frequency with which future events are seen by the second-sight seer adds an element of prophecy. SPIRITUAL VISION -- RARE The highest order of clairvoyance -- that of spiritual vision -- is very rare. The usual clairvoyant deals only with the ordinary aspects and strata of the Astral matter. Spiritual sight comes only to those who are pure, devoted, and firm. It may be attained by special development of the particular organ in the body through which alone such sight is possible, and only after discipline, long training, and the highest altruism. All other clairvoyance is transitory, inadequate, and fragmentary its fragmentary and inadequate character results from the fact that hardly any clairvoyant has the power to see into more than one of the lower grades of Astral substance at any one time. The pure-minded and the brave can deal with the future and the present far better than any clairvoyant. But as the existence of these two powers proves the presence in us of the inner senses and of the necessary medium -- the Astral Light, they have, as such human faculties, an important bearing upon the claims made by the so-called "spirits" of the seance room. DREAMS Dreams are sometimes the result of brain action automatically proceeding, and are also produced by the transmission into the brain by the real inner person of those scenes or ideas high or low which that real person has seen while the body slept. They are then strained into the brain as if floating on the soul as it sinks into the body. These dreams may be of use, but generally the resumption of bodily activity destroys the meaning, perverts the image, and reduces all to confusion. But the great fact of all dreaming is that some one perceives and feels therein, and this is one of the arguments for the inner person's existence. In sleep the inner man communes with higher intelligences, and sometimes succeeds in impressing the brain with what is gained, either a high idea or a prophetic vision. The karma of the person also determines the meaning of a dream, for a king may dream that which relates to his kingdom. But, as said by Job: "In dreams and visions of the night man is instructed." GHOSTS AND APPARITIONS Apparitions and doubles are of two general classes. The one, astral shells or images from the astral world, either actually visible to the eye, or the result of vibration within thrown out to the eye and thus making the person think he sees an objective form without. The other, the astral body of living persons and carrying full consciousness or only partially so endowed. Laborious attempts by Psychical Research Societies to prove apparitions without knowing these laws really prove nothing, for out of twenty admitted cases nineteen may be the objectivization of the image impressed on the brain. Apparitions of those just dead may be either pictures made objective as described, or the Astral Body -- called Kama Rupa at this stage -- of the deceased. And as the dying thoughts and forces released from the body are very strong, we have more accounts of such apparitions than of any other class. The Adept may send out his apparition, which, however, is called by another name [Mayavi Rupa], as it consists of his conscious and trained astral body endowed with all his intelligence and not wholly detached from his physical frame. SCIENCE AND THEOSOPHY Theosophy does not deny nor ignore the physical laws discovered by science. It admits all such as are proven, but it asserts the existence of others which modify the action of those we ordinarily know. Behind all the visible phenomena is the occult cosmos with its ideal machinery; that occult cosmos can only be fully understood by means of the inner senses which pertain to it; those senses will not be easily developed if their existence is denied. Brain and mind acting together have the power to evolve forms, first as astral ones in astral substance, and later as visible ones by accretions of the matter on this plane. Objectivity depends largely on perception, and perception may be affected by inner stimuli. Hence a witness may either see an object which actually exists as such without, or may be made to see one by internal stimulus. This gives us three modes of sight: (a) with the eye by means of light from an object, (b) with the inner senses by means of the Astral Light, and (c) by stimulus from within which causes the eye to report to the brain, thus throwing the inner image without. The phenomena of the other senses may be tabulated in the same manner. SEANCES AND MEDIUMS = CHANNELING The question of materialization of forms at seances deserves some attention. Communication includes trance-speaking, slate and other writing, independent voices in the air, speaking through the physical vocal organs of the medium, and precipitation of written messages out of the air. Do the mediums communicate with the spirits of the dead? Do our departed friends perceive the state of life they have left, and do they sometimes return to speak to and with us? Our departed do not see us here. They are relieved from the terrible pang such a sight would inflict. Once in a while a pure-minded, unpaid medium may ascend in trance to the state in which a deceased soul is, and may remember some bits of what was there heard; but this is rare. Now and then in the course of decades some high human spirit may for a moment return and by unmistakable means communicate with mortals. At the moment of death the soul may speak to some friend on earth before the door is finally shut. But the mass of communications alleged as made day after day through mediums are from the astral unintelligent remains of men, or in many cases entirely the production of, invention, compilation, discovery, and collocation by the loosely attached Astral body of the living medium. Certain objections arise to the theory that the spirits of the dead communicate. Some are: I. At no time have these spirits given the laws governing any of the phenomena, except in a few instances, not accepted by the cult, where the theosophical theory was advanced. II. The spirits disagree among themselves, one stating the after-life to be very different from the description by another. These disagreements vary with the medium and the supposed theories of the deceased during life. One spirit admits reincarnation and others deny it. III. The spirits have discovered nothing in respect to history, anthropology, or other important matters, seeming to have less ability in that line than living men; and although they often claim to be men who lived in older civilizations, they show ignorance thereupon, or merely repeat recently published discoveries. IV. No rationale of phenomena nor of development of mediumship has been obtained from the spirits. Great philosophers are reported as speaking through mediums, but utter only drivel and merest commonplaces. V. The mediums often come to physical and moral grief, are accused of fraud, are shown guilty of trickery, but the spirit guides and controls do not interfere to either prevent or save. VI. It is admitted that the guides and controls deceive and incite to fraud. VII. All that is reported of the spirits show their assertions and philosophy, if any, vary with the medium and the most advanced thought of living spiritualists. >From all this and much more, the man of materialistic science is fortified in his ridicule, but the theosophist has to conclude that the entities, if there be any communicating, are not human spirits, and that the explanations are to be found in some other theories. Materialization of a form out of the air, independent of the medium's physical body, is a fact. But it is not a spirit. As was said by one of the "spirits" not favored by spiritualism, one way to produce this phenomenon is by the accretion of electrical and magnetic particles into one mass upon which matter is aggregated and an image reflected out of the Astral sphere. This is the whole of it; as much a fraud as a collection of muslin and masks. How this is accomplished is another matter. One method is by the use of the Astral body of the living medium. In this case the Astral form exudes from the side of the medium, gradually collects upon itself particles extracted from the air and the bodies of the sitters present, until at last it becomes visible. Sometimes it will resemble the medium; at others it bears a different appearance. In almost every instance dimness of light is requisite because a high light would disturb the Astral substance in a violent manner and render the projection difficult. Some so-called materializations are hollow mockeries, as they are but flat plates of electrical and magnetic substance on which pictures from the Astral Light are reflected. These seem to be the faces of the dead, but they are simply pictured illusions. If one is to understand the psychic phenomena found in the history of "spiritualism" it is necessary to know and admit the following: I. The complete heredity of man astrally, spiritually, and psychically, as a being who knows, reasons, feels, and acts through the body, the Astral body, and the Soul. II. The nature of the mind, its operation, its powers; the nature and power of imagination; the duration and effect of impressions. Most important in this is the persistence of the slightest impression as well as the deepest; that every impression produces a picture in the individual aura; and that by means of this a connection is established between the auras of friends and relatives old, new, near, distant, and remote in degree: this would give a wide range of possible sight to a clairvoyant. III. The nature, extent, function, and power of man's inner Astral organs and faculties included in the terms Astral body and Kama. That these are not hindered from action by trance or sleep, but are increased in the medium when entranced; at the same time their action is not free, but governed by the mass chord of thought among the sitters, or by a predominating will, or by the presiding "devil" [elementary] behind the scenes; if a sceptical scientific investigator be present, his mental attitude may totally inhibit the action of the medium's powers by what we might call a freezing . IV. The fate of the real man after death, his state, power, activity there, and his relation, if any, to those left behind him here. V. That the intermediary between mind and body -- the Astral body -- is thrown off at death and left in the Astral light to fade away; and that the Real Man goes to Devachan. VI. The existence, nature, power, and function of the Astral light and its place as a register in Nature. That it contains, retains, and reflects pictures of each and every thing that happened to anyone, and also, every thought; that it permeates the globe and the atmosphere around it; that the transmission of vibration through it is practically instantaneous, since the rate is much quicker than that of electricity as now known. VII. The existence in the Astral light of beings not using bodies like ours, but not human in their nature, having powers, faculties, and a sort of consciousness of their own; these include the elemental forces or nature sprites divided into many degrees, and which have to do with every operation of Nature and every motion of the mind of man. That these elementals act at seances automatically in their various departments. Acting with them in this Astral sphere are the soulless men who live in it. To these are to be ascribed the phenomenon, among others, of the "independent voice," always sounding like a voice in a barrel just because it is made in a vacuum which is absolutely necessary for an entity so far removed from spirit. VIII. The existence and operation of occult laws and forces in nature which may be used to produce phenomenal results on this plane; that these laws and forces may be put into operation either consciously or unconsciously, and that many of these occult operations are automatic in the same way as is the freezing of water under intense cold or the melting of ice under heat. IX. That the Astral body of the medium, partaking of the nature of the Astral substance, may be extended from the physical body, may act outside of the. And that the Astral body of any person may be made to feel sensation, which, being transmitted to the brain, causes the person to think he is touched or has heard a sound. Mediumship is full of dangers because the Astral part of the man is now only normal in action when joined to the body; in distant years it will normally act without a body as it has in the far past. To become a medium means that you have to become disorganized physiologically and in the nervous system, because through the latter is the connection between the two worlds. The moment the door is opened all the unknown forces rush in, and as the grosser part of nature is nearest to us it is that part which affects us most; the lower nature is also first affected and inflamed because the forces used are from that part of us. We are then at the mercy of the vile thoughts of all men, and subject to the influence of the shells in Kama Loka. If to this be added the taking of money for the practice of mediumship, an additional danger is at hand, for the things of the spirit and those relating to the Astral world must not be sold. This is the great disease of American spiritualism which has debased and degraded its whole history; until it is eliminated no good will come from the practice; those who wish to hear truth from the other world must devote themselves to truth and leave all considerations of money out of sight. To attempt to acquire the use of the psychic powers for mere curiosity or for selfish ends is also dangerous for the same reasons as in the case of mediumship. As the civilization of the present day is selfish to the last degree and built on the personal element, the rules for the development of these powers in the right way have not been given out, but the Masters of Wisdom have said that philosophy and ethics must first be learned and practiced before any development of the other department is to be indulged in; and their condemnation of the wholesale development of mediums is supported by the history of spiritualism, which is one long story of the ruin of mediums in every direction. Equally improper is the manner of the scientific schools which without a thought for the true nature of man indulge in experiments in hypnotism in which the subjects are injured for life, put into disgraceful attitudes, and made to do things for the satisfaction of the investigators which would never be done by men and women in their normal state. No aid will be given to Science until she looks at man and life from the moral and spiritual side. For this reason those who know all about the psychical world, its denizens and laws, are proceeding with a reform in morals and philosophy before any great attention will be accorded to the phenomena. The Lodge hopes by the time the next tide begins to rise that the West will have gained some right knowledge of the true philosophy of Man and Nature, and be then ready to bear the lifting of the veil a little more. To help on the progress of the race in this direction is the object of THEOSOPHY. DTB Dallas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Dec 28 20:33:25 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74071 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2004 04:33:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2004 04:33:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2004 04:33:24 -0000 Received: from [209.179.140.240] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CjVVy-0004RG-7D; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:33:02 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance; b=H4kxQ/WH0BUXxVVB5kTEl7u4Nymp+ygTzcXfraXZbeMYjMdGbvqynB6VW65iKcgF; To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:32:10 -0800 Message-ID: <000701c4ed5f$74fc62f0$f08cb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7928968f926a7cad9cd81855eff45011b9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.140.240 Subject: The Astral and Psychic Planes Part 2 -- X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 28 2004 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D THE ASTRAL BODY AND THE PSYCHIC PLANE -- Part 2=20=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D BODY AND ASTRAL BODY The body, as a mass of flesh, bones, muscles, nerves, brain matter, bile, mucous, blood, and skin is an object of exclusive care for too many people, who make it their god because they have come to identify themselves with it= , meaning it only when they say "I." =85 It is made up of an infinitesimal number of "lives." Each of these lives is a sensitive point. Not only are there microbes, bacilli, and bacteria, but these are composed of others, and those others of still more minute lives. These lives=85make up the cells, keeping ever within the limits assigned by evolution to the cell. They are forever whirling and moving together throughout the whole body, being in certain apparently void spaces as well as where flesh, membrane, bones, and blood are seen. They extend beyond the actual outer limits of the body to a measurable distance.=20 =93LIVES=94 THAT MAKE UP THE BODY -- AND LIFE-FORCE One of the mysteries of physical life is hidden among these "lives." Their action, forced forward by the Life energy -- called Prana or Jiva -- will explain active existence and physical death. They are divided into two classes, one the destroyers, the other the preservers, and these two war upon each other from birth until the destroyers win. In this struggle the Life Energy itself ends the contest because it is life that kills. This may seem =93unorthodox,=94 but in Theosophical philosophy it is held t= o be the fact. For, it is said, the infant lives because the combination of healthy organs is able to absorb the life all around it in space, and is pu= t to sleep each day by the overpowering strength of the stream of life, since the preservers among the cells of the youthful body are not yet mastered by the other class.=20 SLEEPING AND BALANCING OF THE LIFE FORCE These processes of going to sleep and waking again are simply and solely th= e restoring of the equilibrium in sleep and the action produced by disturbing it when awake=85 So in sleep we are absorbing and not resisting the Life Energy. When we wake we are throwing it off. But as it exists around us like an ocean in which we swim, our power to throw it off is necessarily limited. Just when we wake we are in equilibrium as to our organs and life; when we fall asleep we are yet more full of life than in the morning; it ha= s exhausted us; it finally kills the body. Such a contest could not be waged forever, since the whole solar system's weight of life is pitted against th= e power to resist focused in one small human frame.=20 PHYSICAL BODY IN CONSTANT CHANGE The physical body is considered by the Masters of Wisdom to be the most transitory, impermanent, and illusionary of the whole series of constituent= s in man. Not for a moment is it the same. Ever changing, in motion in every part, it is in fact never complete or finished though tangible. The ancient= s clearly perceived this, for they elaborated a doctrine called =85Nitya Pralaya, or the continual change in material things, the continual destruction. This is known now to science in the doctrine that the body undergoes a complete alteration and renovation every seven years. At the en= d of the first seven years it is not the same body it was in the beginning. A= t the end of our days it has changed seven times, perhaps more. And yet it presents the same general appearance from maturity until death; and it is a human form from birth to maturity. This is a mystery science explains not; it is a question pertaining to the cell and to the means whereby the genera= l human shape is preserved.=20 =93CELL=94 AS A MODEL AND IDEAL SHAPE The "cell" is an illusion. It is merely a word. It has no existence as a material thing, for any cell is composed of other cells. What, then, is a cell? It is the ideal form within which the actual physical atoms -- made u= p of the "lives" -- arrange themselves. As it is admitted that the physical molecules are forever rushing away from the body, they must be leaving the cells each moment. Hence there is no physical cell, but the privative limit= s of one, the ideal walls and general shape.=20 The molecules assume position within the ideal shape according to the laws of nature, and leave it again almost at once to give place to other atoms. And as it is thus with the body, so is it with the earth and with the solar system. Thus also is it, though in slower measure, with all material objects. They are all in constant motion and change. This is modern and als= o ancient wisdom. This is the physical explanation of clairvoyance, clairaudience, telepathy, and mind-reading. It helps to show us what a deluding and unsatisfactory thing our body is.=20 LIFE-FORCE AND THE ASTRAL PLANE Although, strictly speaking, the second constituent of man is the ASTRAL BODY -- called in Sanskrit Linga Sarira -- we will consider Life Energy -- or Prana and Jiva in Sanskrit -- together, because to our observation the phenomenon of life is more plainly exhibited in connection with the body.=20 Life is not the result of the operation of the organs, nor is it gone when the body dissolves. It is a universally pervasive principle. It is the ocea= n in which the earth floats; it permeates the globe and every being and objec= t on it. It works unceasingly on and around us, pulsating against and through us forever.=20 When we occupy a body we merely use a more specialized instrument than any other for dealing with both Prana and Jiva. Strictly speaking, Prana is breath; and as breath is necessary for continuance of life in the human machine, that is the better word. Jiva means "life," and also is applied to the living soul, for the life in general is derived from the Supreme Life itself. Jiva is therefore capable of general application, whereas Prana is more particular.=20 It cannot be said that one has a definite amount of this Life Energy, but rather that it works with whatever be the mass of matter in it. We, as it were, secrete or use it as we live. For whether we are alive or dead, life-energy is still there; in life among our organs sustaining them, in death among the innumerable creatures that arise from our destruction. We can no more do away with this life than we can erase the air in which the bird floats, and like the air it fills all the spaces on the planet, so tha= t nowhere can we lose the benefit of it nor escape its final crushing power. But in working upon the physical body this life -- Prana -- needs a vehicle= , means, or guide, and this vehicle is the ASTRAL BODY.=20 ASTRAL BODY -- NAMES IN OLDER SYSTEMS There are many names for the ASTRAL BODY. Here are a few: Linga Sarira, Sanskrit, meaning design body, and the best one of all; ethereal double; phantom; wraith; apparition; doppelganger; personal man; perisprit; irrational soul; animal soul; Bhuta; elementary; spook; devil; demon.=20 Some of these apply only to the astral body when devoid of the corpus after death. Bhuta, devil, and elementary are nearly synonymous; the first Sanskrit, the other English. With the Hindus the Bhuta is the Astral Body when it is by death released from the body and the mind; and being thus separated from conscience, is a devil in their estimation. They are not far wrong, if we abolish the old notion that a devil is an angel fallen from heaven, for this bodily devil is something which rises from the earth.=20 It may be objected that the term Astral Body is not the right one for this purpose. The objection is one which arises from the nature and genesis of the English language, for =85as its philosophers have not admitted the existence of these inner organs, the right terms do not exist in the language. So in looking for words to describe the inner body the only ones found in English were the "astral body."=20 This term comes near to the real fact, since the substance of this form is derived from cosmic matter or star matter, roughly speaking. But the old Sanskrit word describes it exactly -- Linga Sarira, the design body -- because it is the design or model for the physical body.=20 This is better than "ethereal body," as the latter might be said to be subsequent to the physical, whereas in fact the astral body precedes the material one. The astral body is made of matter of very fine texture as compared with the visible body, and has a great tensile strength, so that i= t changes but little during a lifetime, while the physical alters every moment. And not only has it this immense strength, but at the same time possesses an elasticity permitting its extension to a considerable distance= . It is flexible, plastic, extensible, and strong.=20 ASTRAL BODY IS OF ELECTRIC AND MAGNETIC MATTER The matter of which it is composed is electrical and magnetic in its essence, and is just what the whole world was composed of in the dim past when the processes of evolution had not yet arrived at the point of producing the material body for man. But it is not raw or crude matter. Having been through a vast period of evolution and undergone purifying processes of an incalculable number, its nature has been refined to a degre= e far beyond the gross physical elements we see and touch with the physical eye and hand.=20 ASTRAL IS THE MODEL FOR THE PHYSICAL The astral body is the guiding model for the physical one, and all the othe= r kingdoms have the same astral model. Vegetables, minerals, and animals have the ethereal double, and this theory is the only one which will answer the question how it is that the seed produces its own kind and all sentient beings bring forth their like. Biologists can only say that the facts are a= s we know them, but can give no reason why the acorn will never grow anything but an oak except that no man ever knew it to be otherwise=85 ASTRAL IS ONE OF THE EARLIEST FORMS IN EVOLUTION This doctrine is, that in early times of the evolution of this globe the various kingdoms of nature are outlined in plan or ideal form first, and then the astral matter begins to work on this plan with the aid of the Life principle, until after long ages the astral human form is evolved and perfected.=20 This is, then, the first form that the human race had=85. After another lon= g period, during which the cycle of further descent into matter is rolling forward, the astral form at last clothes itself with a "coat of skin," and the present physical form is on the scene. This is the explanation of the verse of the book of Genesis which describes the giving of coats of skin to Adam and Eve. It is the final fall into matter, for from that point on the man within strives to raise the whole mass of physical substance up to a higher level, and to inform it all with a larger measure of spiritual influence, so that it may be ready to go still further on during the next great period of evolution after the present one is ended.=20 ASTRAL MODEL IN THE WOMB AND CHILD So the model for the growing child in the womb is the astral body, already perfect in shape before the child is born. It is on this model the molecule= s arrange themselves until the child is complete, and the presence of the ethereal design-body will explain how the form grows into shape, how the eyes push themselves out from within to the surface of the face, and many other mysterious matters in embryology which are passed over by medical men with a description but with no explanation.=20 The growing physical form is subject to the astral model; it is connected with the imagination of the mother by physical and psychical organs; the mother makes a strong picture from horror, fear, or otherwise, and the astral model is then similarly affected. In the case of marking by being born legless, the ideas and strong imagination of the mother act so as to cut off or shrivel up the astral leg, and the result is that the molecules, having no model of leg to work on, make no physical leg whatever; and similarly in all such cases. But where we find a man who still feels the leg which the surgeon has cut off, or perceives the fingers that were amputated, then the astral member has not been interfered with, and hence the man feels as if it were still o= n his person. For knife or acid will not injure the astral model, but in the first stages of its growth, ideas and imagination have the power of acid an= d sharpened steel.=20 POSSIBILITY OF ASTRAL TRAVEL In the ordinary man who has not been trained in practical occultism or who has not the faculty by birth, the astral body cannot go more than a few fee= t from the physical one. It is a part of that physical, it sustains it and is incorporated in it just as the fibers of the mango are all through that fruit.=20 But there are those who, by reason of practices pursued in former lives on the earth, have a power born with them of unconsciously sending out the astral body. These are mediums, some seers, and many hysterical, cataleptic= , and scrofulous people. Those who have trained themselves by a long course o= f excessively hard discipline which reaches to the moral and mental nature an= d quite beyond the power of the average man of the day, can use the astral form at will, for they have gotten completely over the delusion that the physical body is a permanent part of them, and, besides, they have learned the chemical and electrical laws governing in this matter. In their case they act with knowledge and consciously; in the other cases the act is done without power to prevent it, or to bring it about at will, or to avoid the risks attendant on such use of potencies in nature of a high character.=20 ASTRAL BODY AND THE REAL SENSES The astral body has in it the real organs of the outer sense organs. In it are the sight, hearing, power to smell, and the sense of touch. It has a complete system of nerves and arteries of its own for the conveyance of the astral fluid which is to that body as our blood is to the physical. It is the real personal man. There are located the subconscious perception and th= e latent memory, which the hypnotizers of the day are dealing with and being baffled by.=20 ASTRAL BODY AFTER DEATH When the body dies the astral man is released, and as at death the immortal man -- the Triad -- flies away to another state, the astral becomes a shell of the once living man and requires time to dissipate. It retains all the memories of the life lived by the man, and thus reflexly and automatically can repeat what the dead man knew, said, thought, and saw. It remains near the deserted physical body nearly all the time until that is completely dissipated, for it has to go through its own process of dying. It may becom= e visible under certain conditions.=20 ASTRAL GHOST OR SPOOK CAN BE EVOKED, OR MATERIALIZED It is the spook of the spiritualistic seance-rooms, and is there made to masquerade as the real spirit of this or that individual. Attracted by the thoughts of the medium and the sitters, it vaguely flutters where they are, and then is galvanized into a factitious life by a whole host of elemental forces, and by the active astral body of the medium who is holding the seance or of any other medium in the audience.=20 PHOTOGRAPHIC PROJECTION OF MEMORIES OF LAST LIFE >From it (as from a photograph) are then reflected into the medium's brain all the boasted evidences which spiritualists claim go to prove identity of deceased friend or relative. These evidences are accepted as proof that the spirit of the deceased is present, because neither mediums nor sitters are acquainted with the laws governing their own nature, nor with the constitution, power, and function of astral matter and astral man.=20 The Theosophical philosophy does not deny the facts proven in spiritualisti= c seances, but it gives an explanation of them wholly opposed to that of the spiritualists. And surely the utter absence of any logical scientific explanation by these so-called spirits of the phenomena they are said to produce supports the contention that they have no knowledge to impart. They can merely cause certain phenomena; the examination of those and deductions therefrom can only be properly carried on by a trained brain guided by a living trinity of spirit, soul, and mind. And here another class of spiritualistic phenomena requires brief notice. That is the appearance of what is called a "materialized spirit."=20 MATERIALIZED SPIRIT Three explanations are offered:=20 First, that the astral body of the living medium detaches itself from its corpus and assumes the appearance of the so-called spirit; for one of the properties of the astral matter is capacity to reflect an image existing unseen in ether.=20 Second, the actual astral shell of the deceased -- wholly devoid of his or her spirit and conscience -- becomes visible and tangible when the conditio= n of air and ether is such as to so alter the vibration of the molecules of the astral shell that it may become visible. The phenomena of density and apparent weight are explained by other laws.=20 Third, an unseen mass of electrical and magnetic matter is collected, and upon it is reflected out of the astral light a picture of any desired perso= n either dead or living. This is taken to be the "spirit" of such persons, bu= t it is not, and has been justly called by H. P. Blavatsky a "psychological fraud," because it pretends to be what it is not. And, strange to say, this very explanation of materializations has been given by a "spirit" at a regular seance, but has never been accepted by the spiritualists just because it upsets their notion of the return of the spirits of deceased persons.=20 Finally, the astral body will explain nearly all the strange psychical things happening in daily life and in dealings with genuine mediums; it shows what an apparition may be and the possibility of such being seen, and thus prevents the scientific doubter from violating good sense by asserting you did not see what you know you have seen; it removes superstition by showing the real nature of these phenomena, and destroys the unreasonable fear of the unknown which makes a man afraid to see a "ghost." By it also w= e can explain the apportation of objects without physical contact, for the astral hand may be extruded and made to take hold of an object, drawing it in toward the body. When this is shown to be possible, then travelers will not be laughed at who tell of seeing the Hindu yogee make coffee cups fly through the air and distant objects approach apparently of their own accord untouched by him or anyone else.=20 CLAIRVOYANCE AND CLAIRAUDIENCE All the instances of clairvoyance and clairaudience are to be explained als= o by the astral body and astral light. The astral -- which are the real -- organs do the seeing and the hearing, and as all material objects are constantly in motion among their own atoms the astral sight and hearing are not impeded, but work at a distance as great as the extension of the astral light or matter around and about the earth. Thus it was that the great seer Swedenborg saw houses burning in the city of Stockholm when he was at another city many miles off, and by the same means any clairvoyant of the day sees and hears at a distance. THE DESIRE-NATURE AND THE ASTRAL BODY During life the emplacement of the desires and passions [Kama] is, as obtains with the astral body, throughout the entire lower man, and like tha= t ethereal counterpart of our physical person it may be added to or diminished, made weak or increased in strength, debased or purified.=20 DESIRE-NATURE AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH -- KAMARUPA At death [Kama] informs the astral body, which then becomes a mere shell; for when a man dies his astral body and principle of passion and desire leave the physical in company and coalesce. It is then that the term Kamarupa may be applied, as Kamarupa is really made of astral body [Rupa], and Kama in conjunction.=20 This joining of the two makes a shape or form which though ordinarily invisible is material and may be brought into visibility. Although it is empty of mind and conscience, it has powers of its own that can be exercise= d whenever the conditions permit. These conditions are furnished by the mediu= m of the spiritualists, and in every seance room the astral shells of decease= d persons are always present to delude the sitters, whose powers of discrimination have been destroyed by wonderment.=20 It is the "devil" [Bhut] of the Hindus, and a worse enemy the poor medium could not have. For the astral spook -- or Kamarupa -- is but the mass of the desires and passions abandoned by the real person who has fled to "heaven" [Devachan] and has no concern with the people left behind, least o= f all with seances and mediums. Hence, being devoid of the nobler soul, these desires and passions work only on the very lowest part of the medium's nature and stir up=85always the lower leanings of the being. Therefore it i= s that even the spiritualists themselves admit that in the ranks of the mediums there is much fraud, and mediums have often confessed, "the spirits did tempt me and I committed fraud at their wish."=20 DANGER OF EXECUTIONS AND SUICIDE This Kamarupa spook is also the enemy of our civilization, which permits us to execute men for crimes committed and thus throw out into the ether the mass of passion and desire free from the weight of the body and liable at any moment to be attracted to any sensitive person. Being thus attracted, the deplorable images of crimes committed and also the picture of the execution and all the accompanying curses and wishes for revenge are implanted in living persons, who, not seeing the evil, are unable to throw it off. Thus crimes and new ideas of crimes are wilfully propagated every day by those countries where capital punishment prevails.=20 KAMA-RUPA IN THE S=C9ANCE ROOM The astral shells together with the still living astral body of the medium, helped by certain forces of nature which the Theosophists call "elementals,= " produce nearly all the phenomena of non-fraudulent spiritualism.=20 The medium's astral body having the power of extension and extrusion forms the framework for what are called "materialized spirits," makes objects mov= e without physical contact, gives reports from deceased relatives, none of them anything more than recollections and pictures from the astral light, and in all this using and being used by the shells of suicides, executed murderers, and all such spooks as are naturally near to this plane of life.= =20 The number of cases in which any communication comes from an actual spirit out of the body is so small as to be countable almost on one hand. But the spirits of living men sometimes, while their bodies are asleep, come to seances and take part therein. But they cannot recollect it, do not know ho= w they do it, and are not distinguished by mediums from the mass of astral corpses. The fact that such things can be done by the inner man and not be recollected proves nothing against these theories, for the child can see without knowing how the eye acts, and the savage who has no knowledge of th= e complex machinery working in his body still carries on the process of digestion perfectly. And that the latter is unconscious with him is exactly in line with the theory, for these acts and doings of the inner man are the unconscious actions of the subconscious mind. These words "conscious" and "subconscious" are of course used relatively, the unconsciousness being tha= t of the brain only. And hypnotic experiments have conclusively proved all these theories, as on one day not far away will be fully admitted. Besides this, the astral shells of suicides and executed criminals are the most coherent, longest lived, and nearest to us of all the shades of Hades, and hence must, out of the necessity of the case, be the real "controls" of the seance room.=20 KAMA -- PASSION AND DESIRE ARE NOT THE MIND Passion and desire, together with astral model-body, are common to men and animals, as also to the vegetable kingdom, though in the last but faintly developed. And at one period in evolution no further material principles ha= d been developed, and all the three higher, of Mind, Soul, and Spirit, were but latent. Up to this point man and animal were equal, for the brute in us is made of the passions and the astral body.=20 The development of the germs of Mind made man. because it constituted the great differentiation.=20 The God within begins with Manas or mind, and it is the struggle between this God and the brute below which Theosophy speaks of and warns about. The lower principle is called bad because by comparison with the higher it is so, but still it is the basis of action. We cannot rise unless self first asserts itself in the =93desire to do better.=94=20 In this aspect [in the philosophy of the =93Bhagavad Gita=94] it is called = rajas or the active and bad quality, as distinguished from tamas, or the quality of darkness and indifference. Rising is not possible unless rajas is presen= t to give the impulse, and by the use of this principle of passion all the higher qualities are brought to at last so refine and elevate our desires that they may be continually placed upon truth and spirit [sattva].=20 By this Theosophy does not teach that the passions are to be pandered to or satiated, for a more pernicious doctrine was never taught, but the injunction is to make use of the activity given by the fourth principle so as to ever rise and not to fall under the dominion of the dark quality that ends with annihilation, after having begun in selfishness and indifference.= =20 But believing in his teacher, the theosophist sees all around him the evidence that the race mind is changing by enlargement, that the old days o= f dogmatism are gone and the "age of inquiry" has come, that the inquiries will grow louder year by year, and the answers be required to satisfy the mind as it grows more and more. Until at last, all dogmatism being ended, the race will be ready to face all problems, each man for himself, all working for the good of the whole, and that the end will be the perfecting of those who struggle to overcome the brute. For these reasons the old doctrines are given out again, and Theosophy asks every one to reflect whether to give way to the animal below or look up to and be governed by th= e God within.=20 MANAS -- THE MIND In our analysis of man's nature we have so far considered only the perishable elements which make up the lower man, and have arrived at the fourth principle or plane -- that of desire -- without having touched upon the question of Mind.=20 But even so far as we have gone it must be evident that there is a wide difference between the ordinary ideas about Mind and those found in Theosophy. Ordinarily the Mind is thought to be immaterial, or to be merely the name for the action of the brain in evolving thought, a process wholly unknown other than by inference, or that if there be no brain there can be no mind.=20 A good deal of attention has been paid to cataloging some mental functions and attributes, but the terms are altogether absent from the language to describe actual metaphysical and spiritual facts about man.=20 This confusion and poverty of words for these uses are due almost entirely, first, to dogmatic religion, which has asserted and enforced for many centuries dogmas and doctrines which reason could not accept, and secondly to the natural war which grew up between science and religion just as soon as the fetters placed by religion upon science were removed and the latter was permitted to deal with facts in nature.=20 The reaction against religion naturally prevented science from taking any but a materialistic view of man and nature. So from neither of these two have we yet gained the words needed for describing the fifth, sixth, and seventh principles, those which make up the Trinity, the real man, the immortal pilgrim.=20 The fifth principle is Manas, and is usually translated Mind. Other names have been given to it, but it is the knower, the perceiver, the thinker.=20 The sixth is Buddhi, or spiritual discernment; the seventh is Atma, or Spirit, the ray from the Absolute Being. The English language will suffice to describe in part what Manas is, but not Buddhi, or Atma, and will leave many things relating to Manas undescribed.=20 --------------------- Part 3 =3D=3D will be continued in the next posting =93PSYCHIC PHENOMENA AND LAWS=94 [From the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY ( Extracts ) ] DTB From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Dec 28 20:33:42 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86327 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2004 04:33:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2004 04:33:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2004 04:33:42 -0000 Received: from [209.179.140.240] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CjVWJ-0004RG-Ku; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:33:20 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance; b=YJ0YsW9r4FVio0uiUd096zXZFbxCdkQqITuvaRuDurjE3ce3RP+wQwPzQozy1+GB; To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:32:10 -0800 Message-ID: <000801c4ed5f$81b782e0$f08cb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7973c8b3f6bd2aab91fad1dcbe3b4ccc37350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.140.240 Subject: Astral & Psychic Planes Part 1 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 28 2004 =A0 =A0 Astral=A0 &=A0 Psychic=A0 Planes=A0=A0 Part=A0=A0 1 =A0 =A0 THEOSOPHY on the ASTRAL WORLD or PLANE=A0 and=A0 the =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0 PSYCHIC WORLD or PLANE =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 -----= ------------------ =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 THEOSOPHICAL DOCTRINES on EVOLUTION =A0 =A0 NOTE: =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 This is a necessary introduction to the T= heosophical concept of the=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0 =93Astral Plane and the Astral Man.= =94 =A0 =A0 =A0 The cosmic and human chronology of the Hindus is laughed at by western Orientalists, yet they can furnish nothing better and are continually disagreeing with each other on the same subject=85 They could find in the story of the building of Solomon's temple from the heterogeneous materials brought from everywhere, and its erection without the noise of a tool being heard, the agreement with these ideas of their Egyptian and Hindu brothers.= =20 =A0 For Solomon's Temple means MAN whose frame is built up, finished and decorated without the least noise. But the materials had to be found, gathered together and fashioned in other and distant places... Man could no= t have his bodily temple to live in until all the matter in and about his world had been found by the Master, who is the Inner Man, when found, the plans for working it required to be detailed. They then had to be carried out until all the parts should be perfectly ready and fit for placing in th= e final structure. =A0 So in the vast stretch of time which began after the first almost intangibl= e matter had been gathered and kneaded, the material and vegetable kingdoms had sole possession here with the Master -- MAN -- who was hidden from sigh= t within, carrying forward the plans for the foundations of the human temple. All of this requires many, many ages, since we know that nature never leaps= . =A0 And when the rough work was completed, when the human temple was erected, many more ages would be required for all the servants, the priests, and the counsellors to learn their parts properly so that MAN, the Master, might be able to use the temple for its best and highest purposes.=20 =A0 The ancient doctrine is far nobler than the Christian religious one or that of the purely scientific school. The religious gives a theory which conflicts with reason and fact, while science can give for the facts which it observes no reason which is in any way noble or elevating.=20 =A0 Theosophy alone, inclusive of all systems and every experience, gives the key, the plan, the doctrine, the truth.=20 =A0 The real age of the world is asserted by Theosophy to be almost incalculable, and that of man as he is now formed is over eighteen millions of years. What has become at last man is of vastly greater age, for before the present two sexes appeared the human creature was sometimes of one shap= e and sometimes of another, until the whole plan had been fully worked out into our present form, function, and capacity.=20 =A0 During all these ages before our man came into being, evolution was carryin= g on the work of perfecting various powers which are now our possession. This was accomplished by the Ego or real man going through experience in countless conditions of matter all different one from the other, and the same plan in general was, and is pursued, as prevails in respect to the general evolution of the universe.=20 =A0 That is, DETAILS WERE FIRST WORKED OUT IN SPHERES OF BEING VERY ETHEREAL, metaphysical in fact. Then the next step brought the same details to be worked out on a plane of matter a little more dense, until at last it could be done on our present plane of what we miscall gross matter.=20 =A0 In these anterior states the senses existed in germ, as it were, or in idea= , until the Astral Plane which is next to this one was arrived at, and then they were concentrated so as to be the actual senses we now use through the agency of the different outer organs.=20 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 SENSES AND POWERS=A0 HOW EVOLVED =A0 The outer organs of sight, touch and hearing, and tasting, are often mistaken by the unlearned or the thoughtless for the real organs and senses= , but he who stops to think must see that the senses are interior and that their outer organs are but mediators between the visible universe and the real perceiver within. And all these various powers and potentialities bein= g well worked out in this slow but sure process, at last man is put upon the scene a sevenfold being just as the universe and earth itself are sevenfold= . =A0 Each of his seven principles is derived from one of the great first seven divisions=85 So the first sevenfold differentiation is important to be born= e in mind, since it is the basis of all that follows; just as the universal evolution is septenary so the evolution of humanity, sevenfold in its constitution, is carried on upon a septenary Earth. [ S D=A0 I=A0 157 ] =A0 This is spoken of in Theosophical literature as the Sevenfold Planetary Chain, and is intimately connected with Man's special evolution. =A0 The earth is one of seven Globes, in respect to man's consciousness only, because when he functions on one of the seven he perceives it as a distinct globe and does not see the other six. This is in perfect correspondence wit= h man himself who has six other constituents of which only the gross body is visible to him because he is now functioning on the Earth -- or the fourth Globe -- and his body represents the Earth. [ S D=A0 I=A0 200;=A0 II=A0 596= ] =A0 The whole seven "Globes" constitute one single mass or great Globe and they all interpenetrate each other. But we have to say "Globe," because the ultimate shape is globular or spherical=85. H P B and her Adept teachers sa= y, that the seven Globes of our chain are in "coadunition with each other but not in consubstantiality." (Secret Doctrine, Vol. I, p. 166.) This is further enforced by cautions not to rely on plane surface diagrams, but to look at the metaphysical and spiritual aspect of the theory as stated in English. Thus, these Globes are united in one mass though differing from each other in substance, and that this difference of substance is due to change of center of consciousness.=20 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 OUR EARTH IS A REINCARNATION =A0 The Earth Chain of seven Globes as thus defined is the direct reincarnation of a former chain of seven Globes, and that former family of seven was the moon chain, the moon itself being the visible representative of the fourth Globe of the old chain.=20 =A0 When that former vast entity composed of the Moon and six others, all unite= d in one mass, reached its limit of life it died just as any being dies. Each one of the seven sent its energies into space and gave similar life or vibration to cosmic dust -- matter, -- and the total cohesive force of the whole kept the seven energies together. This resulted in the evolving of th= e present Earth Chain of seven centers of energy or evolution combined in one mass. As the Moon was the fourth of the old series it is on the same plane of perception as the Earth, and as we are now confined in our consciousness largely to Earth we are able only to see one of the old seven -- to wit: ou= r Moon...=20 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 HUMANITY : AN ARMY OF EGOS -- MONADS =A0 The stream or mass of Egos which evolves on the seven Globes of our chain i= s limited in number, yet the actual quantity is enormous. For though the universe is limitless and infinite, yet in any particular portion of Cosmos in which manifestation and evolution have begun there is a limit to the extent of manifestation and to the number of Egos engaged therein. And the whole number of Monads now going through evolution on our Earth Chain came over from the old seven planets or Globes which I have described=85as a "li= fe wave," which means the stream of Monads.=20 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =93GLOBES=94 REPRESENT STATES OF =93CONSC= IOUSNESS=94 =A0 It reached this planetary mass, represented to our consciousness by the central point our Earth, and began on Globe A or No. I, coming like an army or river. The first portion began on Globe A and went through a long evolution there in bodies suited to such a state of matter, and then passed on to B, and so on through the whole seven greater states of consciousness which have been called Globes. When the first portion left A, others streamed in and pursued the same course, the whole army proceeding with regularity round the septenary route.=20 =A0 This journey went on for four circlings round the whole, and then the whole stream or army of Egos from the old Moon Chain had arrived, and being complete, no more entered after the middle of the Fourth Round. The same circling process of these differently arrived classes goes on for seven complete =93Rounds=94 of the whole seven planetary centers of consciousness= , and when the seven are ended as much perfection as is possible in the immense period occupied will have been attained, and then this chain or mass of "globes" will die in its turn to give birth to still another series.=20 =A0 Each one of the Globes is used by evolutionary law for the development of seven races, and of senses, faculties and powers appropriate to that state of matter: the experience of the whole seven globes being needed to make a perfect development.=20 =A0 Hence we have the Rounds and Races. The Round is a circling of the seven centers of planetary consciousness; the Race the racial development on one of those seven. There are seven races for each Globe, but the total of forty-nine races only makes up seven great races, the special septenate of races on each globe or planetary center composing in reality one race of seven constituents or special peculiarities of function and power.=20 =A0 And as no complete race could be evolved in a moment on any Globe, the slow= , orderly processes of nature, which allow no jumps, must proceed by appropriate means. Hence sub-races have to be evolved one after the other before the perfect Root Race is formed, and then the Root Race sends off it= s offshoots while it is declining and preparing for the advent of the next great Race.=20 =A0 As illustrating this, it is distinctly taught that on the Americas is to be evolved the new -- sixth -- race; and here all the races of the earth are now engaged in a great amalgamation from which will result a very highly developed sub-race, after which others will be evolved by similar processes until the new one is completed.=20 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 A PERIOD OF REST BETWEEN EARTH INCARNATIO= NS =A0 Between the end of any great race and the beginning of another there is a period of rest, so far as the Globe is concerned, for then the stream of human Egos leaves it for another one of the chain in order to go on with further evolution of powers and faculties there.=20 =A0 But when the last, the seventh, race has appeared and fully perfected itself, a great dissolution comes on=85 and then the world disappears as a tangible thing, and so far as the human ear is concerned there is silence. This, it is said, is the root of the belief so general that the world will come to an end, that there will be a judgment-day, or that there have been universal floods or fires.=20 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 EARLY ASPECTS OF MATTER =A0 Taking up evolution on the Earth, it is stated that the stream of Monads begins first to work up the mass of matter in what are called elemental conditions when all is gaseous or fiery. For the ancient and true theory is that no evolution is possible without the Monad as vivifying agent. In this first stage there is no animal or vegetable. Next comes the mineral when th= e whole mass hardens, the Monads being all imprisoned within.=20 =A0 Then the first Monads emerge into vegetable forms which they construct themselves, and no animals yet appear. Next the first class of Monads emerges from the vegetable and produces the animal, then the human astral and shadowy model, and we have minerals, vegetables, animals and future men= , for the second and later classes are still evolving in the lower kingdoms.= =20 =A0 When the middle of the Fourth Round is reached no more Monads emerge into the human stage and will not until a new planetary mass, reincarnated from ours, is made. This is the whole process roughly given, but with many details left out=85.=20 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 MANIFESTATION=A0 : UNIVERSAL PLAN -- MAHAT=A0 -=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 UNIVERSAL MIND =A0 The plan comes first in the Universal Mind, after which the Astral Model or basis is made, and when that astral model is completed, the whole process i= s gone over so as to condense the matter, up to the middle of the Fourth Round.=20 =A0 Subsequent to that, which is our future, the whole mass is spiritualized with full consciousness and the entire body of Globes raised up to a higher plane of development. In the process of condensing above referred to there is an alteration in respect to the time of the appearance of man on the planet. But as to these details the teachers have only said, =85 =93but the variation will not be given to this generation." Hence it is impossible to give it. But there is no vagueness on the point that seven great races have to evolve here on this planet, and that the entire collection of races has to go seven times round the whole series of seven Globes.=20 =A0 Human beings did not appear here in two sexes first. The first were of no sex, then they altered into hermaphrodite, and lastly separated into male and female. And this separation into male and female for human beings was over 18,000,000 years ago. For that reason is it said, in these ancient schools, that our humanity is 18,000,000 years old and a little over. =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 SOUL -- EGO --=A0 MIND =A0 =A0 Nearly everyone says he has a soul and a body, and there it ends. What the soul is, and whether it is the real person or whether it has any powers of its own, are not inquired into, the preachers usually confining themselves to its salvation or damnation. And by thus talking of it as something different from oneself, the people have acquired an underlying notion that they are not souls because the soul may be lost by them. From this has come about a tendency to materialism causing men to pay more attention to the body than to the soul, the latter being left to the tender mercies of the priest of the Roman Catholics, and among dissenters the care of it is most frequently put off to the dying day. But when the true teaching is known it will be seen that the care of the soul, which is the Self, is a vital matte= r requiring attention every day, and not to be deferred without grievous injury resulting to the whole man, both soul and body=85.=20 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 THE 7-FOLD CLASSIFICATION =A0 H. P. Blavatsky directly from the Great Lodge of Initiates=85places=85the o= ld doctrine [of seven-fold Man] before western civilization.=A0 The classification is:=20 =A0 1.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = The Body, =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 or Rupa.=20 2.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Vitality, =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 or Prana-Jiva.=20 3.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Astral Body, =A0=A0 or Linga-Sarira.=20 4.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Animal Soul, =A0 or Kama-Rupa=20 5.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Human Soul, =A0=A0 or Manas.=20 6.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Spiritual Soul, =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 or Buddhi.=20 7.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Spirit, =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 or Atma,=20 8.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = =A0 The words in the Sanskrit language are adopted the English terms. This classification stands to this day for all practical purposes, but it is capable of modification and extension. =A0 =A0For instance, a later arrangement which places ASTRAL BODY second instea= d of third in the category does not substantially alter it. It at once gives an idea of what man is, very different from the vague description by the words "body and soul," and also boldly challenges the materialistic conception that mind is the product of brain, a portion of the body.=20 =A0 No claim is made that these principles were hitherto unknown, for they were all understood in various ways not only by the Hindus but by many Europeans= . Yet the compact presentation of the sevenfold constitution of man in intimate connection with the septenary constitution of a chain of Globes through which the being evolves, had not been given out=85=20 =A0 Considering these constituents in another manner, we would say that the lower man is a composite being, but in his real nature is a unity, or immortal being, comprising a trinity of Spirit, Discernment, and Mind which requires four lower mortal instruments or vehicles through which to work in matter and obtain experience from Nature.=20 =A0 This trinity is that called Atma-Buddhi-Manas in Sanskrit, difficult terms to render in English. Atma is Spirit, Buddhi is the highest power of intellection, that which discerns and judges, and Manas is Mind. This threefold collection is the real man; and beyond doubt the doctrine is the origin of the theological one of the trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost= . The four lower instruments or vehicles are shown in this table:=20 =A0 =A0 The=A0 =93Real Man=94=A0 is :=20 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Atma,=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Buddhi, =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Manas,=20 =A0 His=A0 =93Lower Vehicles=94 are :=20 =A0 =95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0 The Passions and Desires,=20 =95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0 Life Principle,=20 =95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0 Astral Body,=20 =95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0 Physical Body.=20 =A0 =A0 These four lower material constituents are transitory and subject to disintegration in themselves as well as to separation from each other. When the hour arrives for their separation to begin, the combination can no longer be kept up, the physical body dies, the atoms of which each of the four is composed begin to separate from each other, and the whole collectio= n being disjointed is no longer fit for one as an instrument for the real man= . =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 DEATH of the PHYSICAL =A0 This is what is called "death" among us mortals, but it is not death for th= e real man because he is deathless, persistent, immortal. He is therefore called the Triad, or indestructible trinity, while they are known as the Quaternary or mortal four.=20 =A0 =A0 This quaternary or lower man is a product of cosmic or physical laws and substance. It has been evolved during a lapse of ages, like any other physical thing, from cosmic substance, and is therefore subject to physical= , physiological, and psychical laws which govern the race of man as a whole. =A0 Hence its period of possible continuance can be calculated just as the limi= t of tensile strain among the metals used in bridge building can be deduced b= y the engineer. Any one collection in the form of man made up of these constituents is therefore limited in duration by the laws of the evolutionary period in which it exists. Just now, that is generally seventy to one hundred years, but its possible duration is longer. Thus there are i= n history instances where ordinary persons have lived to be two hundred years of age; and by a knowledge of the occult laws of nature the possible limit of duration may be extended nearly to four hundred years.=20 =A0 =95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0 The visible physical man is: Brain, Nerves, Blood, Bones, Lymph, Muscles, Organs of Sensation and Action, and Skin.=20 =95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0 =A0 =95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0 The unseen physical man is: Astral Body, Passions and Desires, Life Principle (called prana or jiva).=20 =95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0 =A0 It will be seen that the physical part of our nature is thus extended to a second department which, though invisible to the physical eye, is nevertheless material and subject to decay.=20 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 REAL AND=A0 UNREAL =A0 Because people in general have been in the habit of admitting to be real only what they can see with the physical eye, they have at last come to suppose that the unseen is neither real nor material. But they forgot that even on the earth plane noxious gases are invisible though real and powerfully material, and that water may exist in the air held suspended and invisible until conditions alter and cause its precipitation.=20 =A0 Let us recapitulate before going into details. The Real Man is the trinity of Atma-Buddhi-Manas, or Spirit and Mind, and he uses certain agents and instruments to get in touch with nature in order to know himself.=20 =A0 These instruments and agents are found in the lower Four -- or the Quaternary -- each principle in which category is of itself an instrument for the particular experience belonging to its own field, the body being th= e lowest, least important, and most transitory of the whole series.=20 =A0 For when we arrive at the body on the way down from the Higher Mind, it can be shown that all of its organs are in themselves senseless and useless whe= n deprived of the man within.=20 =A0 Sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smelling do not pertain to the body but t= o the second unseen physical man, the real organs for the exercise of those powers being in the ASTRAL BODY, and those in the physical body being but the mechanical outer instruments for making the coordination between nature and the real organs inside.=20 =A0 =A0 [ CONTINUED IN PART=A0 2 ] =A0 [Adapted from THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY ] =A0 =A0 DTB =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Dallas =A0 From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Dec 28 21:21:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 68478 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2004 05:21:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2004 05:21:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2004 05:21:58 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.165] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CjWHN-0007YE-Nz; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:21:55 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:Importance; b=MA4NWgPMFy9ynYinFckIrTwrI/donQWR32B5IpmoHZdAwMdAVrGLZYp9JJ3GYEU9; To: "'steven levey'" Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:21:23 -0800 Message-ID: <001a01c4ed66$4ccb5e60$f08cb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79b7427677e552a379779a155168c76b61350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.222.165 Subject: RE: re karma in relation to expression, Theosophy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 28=20=20 Dear Steve: I would say that meditation and the accumulation of those statements that clarify matters help a great deal.=20=20 Manas has to purify itself by effort, choice and the WILL to advance out of desire colored environments into those where the prevalence of law and trut= h reign. How else can we invoke consciously Budhi-Manas (intuition) ? Dal Dallas =20 -----Original Message----- From: steven levey [mailto:levey_steven@hotmail.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 8:42 AM To: dalval14@earthlink.net Subject: Re: re karma in relation to expression, Theosophy Dal-Seems like one answer to Mauri's dillema might be "practice". In other words, regardless of how students interpret HPB's writtings, through application, answers will make themselves clear. The larger metaphysical issues of the S.D. often require more contemplative action than intelectual. Steve ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" To: "AA-BNStudy" Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:09 AM Subject: RE: re karma in relation to expression, Theosophy Dec 28 2004 Dear Mauri: HPB is with us if we only go to her and try to find out what she already said: For instance: Have you observed that the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY was originated to fulfil three objects? [The T S is not THEOSOPHY ! The T S was supposed to promulgate it as a set of impersonal principles that could be applied.] "ENQUIRER. What are the objects of the "Theosophical Society"? THEOSOPHIST. They are three, and have been so from the beginning. (1.) To form the nucleus of a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity without distinction of race, colour, or creed. 2.) To promote the study of Aryan and other Scriptures, of the World's religion and sciences, and to vindicate the importance of old Asiatic literature, namely, of the Brahmanical, Buddhist, and Zoroastrian philosophies. (3.) To investigate the hidden mysteries of Nature under every aspect possible, and the psychic and spiritual powers latent in man especially. These are, broadly stated, the three chief objects of the Theosophical Society." The KEY TO THEOSOPHY p. 39. If one desires to discover what THEOSOPHY is, then by studying the basic books and articles written by Mme. H P Blavatsky, the accredited Agent of the Masters of Wisdom, you may discover a part of the following: FUNDAMENTAL DOCTRINES OF THEOSOPHY 1.) the individual immortality of all Monads that fill the entirety of Space, this includes the least as well as the highest of Spiritual Souls; 2.) the common bond of Karma (law) which serves as a basis for all interaction, as it unites the causal motives for all action, done by anything or anyone, with the exact results returning to the individual bein= g that generated them; 3.) a process of evolution that is continuous and extends from the smallest part of the vast UNIVERSE to its utmost limits, the least has the same potentials of the most advanced; and is for ever in contact with ever= y other entity or part of the whole Universe; 4.) a common goal for all units has been called: SPIRITUAL PERFECTION. It is open for all, and embraces all that can be known of the Universe and its uncountable components. That is: Maha-Buddhi, or, Universal WISDOM. Early in the KEY to THEOSOPHY, H. P. Blavatsky writes to establish some basis in the mind of the reader of what Theosophy stands for. In part, she states: THEOSOPHY IS GODLIKE WISDOM, the word "Theosophy" was found used by Pythagoras, a contemporary of Gautama the Buddha. It is divine knowledge o= r science, such as that possessed by the "Gods." ITS FIRST OBJECT IS TO INCULCATE CERTAIN GREAT MORAL TRUTHS upon its disciples. Other objects are: TO RECONCILE ALL RELIGIONS.under a common system of ethics, based on eternal verities. And by demonstrating their identical origin, to establish one universal creed based on ethics. Additionally it aims to reinstate and restore to its primitive integrity the wisdom of the ancients. The WISDOM RELIGION (Theosophy) was ever one, and being the last word of possible human thought, was therefore carefully preserved It will survive every other religion and philosophy. Ancient theosophists claimed that the divine essence could be communicated to the higher Spiritual Self in a state of ecstasy. The latter (also named "samadhi") is practised by its devotees. It is an incessant endeavour to purify and elevate the mind. It is: "the ardent turning of the soul, towards the divine;" not to ask for any particular good, but for the universal Supreme Good for ALL. It states that those ETHICS ARE THE SOUL OF THE WISDOM RELIGION, and are th= e common property of the initiates of all nations. Sri Krishna the great Avatar proclaimed them at the beginning of the present "Kali Yuga" in his "Gita - song" -- teaching them to Arjuna. And we are all "Arjunas," His pupils. But Gautama Buddha was the first to embody those in his public teachings. I= t is the ethics of the Universe, that have always been the most insisted upon= . All these are now called "Theosophical doctrines," because they form part o= f the knowledge of the initiates. These doctrines belong exclusively to no religion, and are confined to no society or time. They are the birthright of every human soul. Those who have imagined Theosophy to be a new religion have hunted in vain for its creed and ritual. Its creed is Loyalty to Truth, and its ritual "To honor every truth by use.= " The THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY was organized on this one principle, the essential Brotherhood of Man. We hold to no religion, as to no philosophy in particular: we cull the good we find in each. The T S was established as a philanthropic and scientific body for the propagation of the ideas of brotherhood on a practical instead of theoretical lines. The T S cannot make a Theosophist of one who has no sense for the divine fitness of things. "THEOSOPHIST IS, WHO THEOSOPHY DOES." How is this to be accomplished by those individuals who determine to adopt this as their personally policy of life? It is a difficult undertaking, as the foremost rule is the entire renunciation of one's personality. He has to become a thorough altruist, never to think of himself, and to forget his own vanity and pride in the thought of the good of his fellow creatures, to live a life of abstinence i= n everything, of self-denial and strict morality, doing his duty by all men. If one asks what advantages are received from such a program, the answer is given: "deriving much strength from mutual aid and sympathy." UNION IS STRENGTH AND HARMONY, AND WELL-REGULATED SIMULTANEOUS EFFORTS PRODUCE WONDERS. This has been the secret of all associations and communities since mankind existed. Its aims and true goal are several, primarily the relief of human suffering, moral as well as physical. Theosophy has to inculcate ethics; it has to purify the soul, if it would relieve the physical body. AN OCCULTIST PRACTICES SCIENTIFIC THEOSOPHY, BASED ON AN ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE OF NATURE'S SECRET WORKINGS. The divine spark in man being one and identical in its essence with the Universal Spirit, our "spiritual Self" is practically omniscient, but it cannot manifest its knowledge owing to the impediments of matter. The more these impediments are removed, the physical body paralyzed, as to its own independent activity and consciousness, the more fully can the Inner Self manifest on this plane. OUR BELIEFS ARE ALL FOUNDED ON THAT IMMORTAL INDIVIDUALITY. Spirit is potential matter, and matter is simply crystallized Spirit, yet the original and eternal condition of all is not Spirit, but META-SPIRIT (visible and solid matter being simply its periodical manifestations) we maintain that the term Spirit can only be applied to the True Individuality= . SELFISHNESS IS ESSENTIALLY CONSERVATIVE and hates being disturbed. The power of mental inertia is great in anything that does not promise immediat= e benefit and reward. Our age is predominately unspiritual, and matter of fact. Some Theosophical doctrines contradict flatly many of the human vagaries cherished by sectarians -- vagaries and errors which have eaten into the core, the very heart of popular beliefs. The result is that AN ENTIRELY UNSELFISH CODE APPEALS TO A VERY LIMITED CLASS -- thus producing slow, up-hill results. It is essentially the philosophy of those who suffer, and have lost all hop= e of being helped out of the mire of life by any other means. To me it is important that the philosophy and the logic of Nature be expose= d and referred to, rather than any opinion, mine or another's. Opinions fluctuate. Facts are stable. In a sentence: We are born this life into a condition, a nation, a community, which enables us under karma (which we created for ourselves by past choosing) to receive and make the best learning change for our own advance. Additionally, with knowledge that is true and universal, our choices can be molded to assist all we are connected to. In this we will be true brothers and helpful as a quiet example to all. To 'understand' another means to be able to mentally step into their "shoes= " and perceive their source of opinion. Then weighing ours and theirs (opinions) we can refer them to an ideal -- a moral norm. From that we can derive at least for ourselves what we ought to do. Another approach may be observed here: Esoteric and Exoteric aspects of the Theosophical Movement exist. Hitherto in all discussions and answering, we have usually been concerned with the survey of the Theosophical Movement from its public aspects: a par= t of it is a recital of a series of historical and well documented events mor= e or less in relation with each other and with the sum of human activities, together with such reflections on their bearings and significance as to us appear logical and consistent. An attempt has been made to show clearly that the vicissitudes both of the Theosophical Society and Madame Blavatsky's teachings of Theosophy were inevitable and but a repetition of the varying fortunes which have attended every former effort to introduce a system of thought and action at variance with the ideas, customs, and practices still firmly entrenched in the mind of the race. So far, all that we have discussed is accessible in all its detail to any inquiring student, and the ordinary mind will find nothing beyond the range of common observation and experience. The student will have both the advantage and the disadvantage of the familiar multitude of conflicting testimony and opinion that attends every inquiry into human affairs. He will find nothing that transcends the possibility of reconciliation or explanation on his habitual lines of thought, without greatly deranging his fundamental preconceptions regarding God, Nature, Man, and the course of evolution. ESOTERIC THEOSOPHY But, as we have early intimated, the Theosophical Movement has an esoteric as well as an exoteric side, and here the Western student is without guide, chart, or compass, either in his own memorial experience or in any as credited testimony of the race to which he belongs. Not only so, but he will find himself confronted, both in himself and in th= e race, with a deeply imbedded incredulity which derides and despises the ver= y possibility, even, of intellectual and spiritual evolution within and behin= d physical evolution. SPIRITUAL LAWS AND PROGRESS The student of the esoteric side of the Theosophical Movement has then literally to take the position of a Columbus. He has to postulate the existence of the spiritual and mental world or worlds, independent of and superior to our familiar universe, yet inter-penetrating it at every point, standing in relation to it as a cause to an effect, and, in man, almost inextricably interwoven and interblended in his embodied existence. He has to admit the fundamental assumption that spiritual and intellectual evolution is as much under Law in its processes and resultants as physical evolution, and that the latter is but the shadow and the reflex of the mental, as the mental is of the spiritual. He has to recognize the inevitable corollary of these propositions, that Life, individual as well as collective, is continuous, and that the infinit= e course of spiritual, mental, and physical evolution has produced Beings as much superior to man as man is superior to a black beetle -- and, finally, that these Beings take an active part in "the government of the natural order of things." The student will find that Western religious history and Western tradition and myth do, indeed, present an immense literature dealing with gods, angels, demons, fairies, and so on, and with their relations to human being= s and human affairs, but such beings and their interventions are regarded either as miraculous or fictitious, and belief in them rests either on the grounds of "revelation" or of mere opinions ingrained from childhood, or of some misunderstood personal psychological experience. ADEPTS, KARMA, REINCARNATION, LAWS OF EVOLUTION Nowhere is there any philosophy, any scientific, any logical, any historica= l evidence or basis for the existence and action of superhuman and subhuman entities as the product of evolutionary Law. Such a theory or such a fact is as unknown or as derided in the West, as foreign to its basic concepts, as the ideas of pre-existence, metempsychosis, reincarnation, Karma, continuous immortality - all integral and inseparable parts of the fundamental assumptions connected with the esoteric aspects of the Theosophical Movement. Only when all these are recognized, at least as a working hypothesis, does the expression, "the esoteric side of the Theosophical Movement," become tolerable in any but a materialistic sense. The student is compelled to turn aside from the religion, philosophy, and thought of the day and familiarize himself with the recorded philosophy of Theosophy, if he is to view the facts of record in any other light than tha= t of the well-nigh universal preconceptions of the Western race. It is only through the most careful and conscientious study and application of the teachings of Theosophy that the student can hope to penetrate beyond the visible aspects of the Theosophical Movement to the arcana of the intellectual and spiritual factors and forces which constitute the Occult side of that Movement. ADEPTS The first direct affirmation of the existence of Adepts, Beings perfected spiritually, intellectually, and physically, the flower of human and all evolution, is, so far as the Western world is concerned, to be found in the opening sentence of "Isis Unveiled." >From beginning to end that work is strewn with evidences, arguments, and declarations regarding Adepts and their doctrines. Theosophy is declared to be a portion of Their Wisdom; its teachings are presented for the examination and study of the world and of the Fellows of the Theosophical Society. I hope this is of help, Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Mauri Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 To: Subject: re karma in relation to expression, Theosophy Sometimes I wish HPB were available for comment on this list. Every so often I find myself wanting to send some speculative tangent her way in response to something she wrote. Not that she might particularly want to be on the receiving end of my speculative tangents, but ... On the other hand I think I would prefer some updated version of HPB, generally speaking. While I feel that some things haven't changed since the 19th century, I feel that some things have changed enough so that a somewhat different approach toward Theosophical topics in general might be generally or occasionally seen as somewhat more applicable. Not that I'm referring to my speculative tangents as an example of that kind of "different approach," in that I suspect we all have our own notions about how to be applicable, Theosophical, etc (obviously enough ...). Besides, in my case, "applicability" might occasionally get somewhat spculatively tangentialized, among other things, I suspect. I seem to think that, occasionally, some of the things I try to express in print might be more important to me (if not to anybody else) than would be my attempts at making "serious compromises" towards being "understandable enough" or "more understandable" for everybody. On the other hand, or first hand ... ^:-/ ... As far as I can see or speculate, the exoteric/literal interpretive aspects of Theosophy appear to generally lead to dead or neutral ends, basically, (in their "dead letter" sense, as HPB might've put it ...), though I'm not at all sure about whether the "average student of Theosophy," eg, might be all that literal in their interpretations (contrary to some "outward appearances," maybe ...). What if the various "apparent literal interpretations" were seen as the products of those who were unable to express themselves any other way so that, while they may have had "other/deeper insights," say, what if they were unable to express themselves other than in ways suggestive of certain kinds of literal interpretations to some people ... I suspect that some people may have evolved towards values and forms of expression that may appear to be "outwardly" different than might be expressed by way of mainstream or more- traditional or "more esoteric" Theosophical terminology, but that, aside from those differences, the core values might be essentially similar or same in some cases. If one is willing to consider that possibility, wouldn't one be equally willing to at least keep an open mind when encountering various forms of expression ... I suspect that HPB's statement to the effect that "Theosophy is altruism pure and simple" might have been in reference to a kind of broader perspective that, in its way, when understood, might in a way "beneficially transcend" some or many of one's existing, comparatively more-limited interpretive habits/patterns. I feel that the same kind of reasoning might be applied in principle, in some cases, by some people, to various kinds of literature that may at first not appear to be particularly or at all compatible with Theosophy. Speculatively, Mauri From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Dec 28 21:22:18 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 58430 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2004 05:22:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2004 05:22:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2004 05:22:17 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.165] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CjWHZ-0007YE-43; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:22:12 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:Importance; b=s0+ePkR396DTheGi7sQI5cdm1aFScKfW4eHShXSj1WXIprd01iK4zovicy8Fd2bJ; To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:21:23 -0800 Message-ID: <001b01c4ed66$53a62120$f08cb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20041229010128.90902.qmail@web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec791b3e06d59c635924914be78ababc1b45350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.222.165 Subject: RE: How fractal evolution works X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 STATES AFTER DEATH =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Theosophy is that ocean of knowledge which spreads from shore to shore of the evolution of sentient beings; it is not a belief or dogma formulated or invented by man, but is a knowledge of the laws which govern the evolution of all the constituents of nature and of man.=20 SOUL (or MIND) IS IMMORTAL=20=20 That man possesses an immortal soul is the common belief of humanity; to this Theosophy adds that he is a soul; and further that all nature is sentient, that the vast array of objects and men are, down to the smallest atom proof that all is soul and spirit ever evolving under law which is inherent in the whole. EVOLUTION THROUGH REINCARNATION We are therefore not appearing for the first time but have pursued an immeasurable course of activity and intelligent perception on systems, some= , ages before the solar system condensed.=20 This immense reach of the evolutionary system means, that this planet on which we now are is the result of the activity and the evolution of an earlier one that died long ago, leaving its energy to be used to bring int= o existence the earth, and its inhabitants came from an older world to proceed here with the destined work in matter. THE "GOD" IN MAN =3D ATMA - BUDDHI - MANAS In Man the higher Trinity, is the "God" above.=20=20 This is ATMA, and may be called the HIGHER SELF. Next is the spiritual par= t of the soul called BUDDHI [Wisdom and Discrimination]; when thoroughly united with MANAS this may be called the Divine Ego [Higher Manas]. And when we either wholly or now and then become consciously united with Buddhi= , the Spiritual Soul, we behold "God," as it were. They are the immortal part of us; they, in fact, and no other are we. This should be firmly grasped by the mind, for upon its clear understanding depends the comprehension of the entire doctrine. The inner Ego who reincarnates, taking on body after body, storing up the impressions of life after life, gaining experience and adding it to the divine Ego, suffering and enjoying through an immense period of years, is the fifth principle -- MANAS -- not united to Buddhi.=20 INDIVIDUALITY IS PERMANENT -- IMMORTAL The permanent individuality gives to every man the feeling of being himself and not some other; it bridges the gap made by sleep; in like manner it bridges the gap made by the sleep of death. It is this, and not our brain, that lifts us above the animal.=20=20 The forces of thought are generated by Manas, that is, by the thinking of the life time. Each thought makes a physical as well as mental link with th= e desire in which it is rooted.=20 All life is filled with such thoughts, and when the period of rest after death is ended, Manas is bound by innumerable electrical magnetic threads t= o earth by reason of the thoughts of the last life, and therefore by desire.= =20 =09 PERFECTION FOR ALL ASPECTS OF MAN Although reincarnation is the law of nature, the complete trinity of Atma-Buddhi-Manas does not yet fully incarnate in this race. They use and occupy the body by means of the entrance of Manas, the lowest of the three, and the other two shine upon it from above, constituting the "God in Heaven."=20 For that reason man is not yet fully conscious, and reincarnations are needed to at last complete the incarnation of the whole Godlike trinity in the body.=20 When that has been accomplished the race will have become as gods, and the divine trinity being in full possession the entire mass of matter, will be perfected and raised up for the next step.=20 Reincarnation does not mean that we go into animal forms after death. "Once a man always a man" is the saying in the Great Lodge. Evolution having brought Manas the Thinker and Immortal Person on to this plane, cannot send him back to the brute which has not Manas the mind.=20 MEMORY AS A DEATH VISION Memory of a prior life is not needed to prove that we passed through that existence, nor is the fact of not remembering a good objection. We forget the greater part of the occurrences of the years and days of this life, but no one would say for that reason we did not go through these years. We are all subject to the limitations imposed upon the Ego by the new brain in eac= h life. This is why we are not able to keep the pictures of the past. The brain is the instrument for the memory of the soul, and, being new in each life, has only a certain capacity. That capacity will be fully availed of just according to the Ego's own desire and prior conduct, because past living will have increased or diminished its power. By living according to the dictates of the Soul, the brain may at least be made porous to the Soul's recollections; as the brain-matter had no part in the life last lived, it is in general unable to remember. And this is a wis= e law, for we should be very miserable if the deeds of our former lives were not hidden from our view, until by discipline, we become able to bear a knowledge of them.=20 UNIVERSAL LAWS AND REINCARNATION Theosophy applies to the Self -- the Thinker -- the same laws which are see= n everywhere in operation throughout nature, and those are all varieties of the great law that effects follow causes and no effect is without a cause. Viewing life and its probable object, with all the varied experience possible for man, one must be forced to the conclusion that a single life i= s not enough for carrying out all that is intended by Nature, to say nothing of what man himself desires to do. The scale of variety in experience is enormous.=20 There is a vast range of powers latent in man which we see may be developed if opportunity be given. Knowledge infinite in scope and diversity lies before us, and especially in these days when special investigation is the rule.=20 We perceive that we have high aspirations with no time to reach up to their measure, while the great troop of passions and desires, selfish motives and ambitions, war with us and among themselves, pursuing us even to the door o= f death. All these have to be tried, conquered, used, subdued. One life is no= t enough for all this. We come back to earth because on it and with the beings upon it our deeds were performed; because it is the only proper place where punishment and reward can be justly meted out; because here is the only natural spot in which to continue the struggle toward perfection, toward the development of the faculties we have and the destruction of the wickedness we created, and which is attached to us.=20 Justice to ourselves and to all other beings demands it, for we cannot live for ourselves, and it would be unjust to permit some of us to escape, leaving those who were participants with us to remain or to be plunged into a hell where the victim receives no compensation.=20 And lastly, the fact that certain Inherent Ideas are common to the whole race is explained by the Sages as due to recollection of such ideas which were implanted in the human mind, by those Brothers and Sages who learned their lessons and were perfected in former ages, long before the developmen= t of this globe began. These Inherent Ideas -- virtues and brotherhood -- will always be recollected as they accompany the Ego through the long pilgrimage to Perfection.=20 SEVEN-FOLD CLASSIFICATION -- A BASIC Theosophy places the old doctrine before western civilization=20 1. 1. The Body, or Rupa.=20 2. 2. Vitality, or Prana-Jiva.=20 3. 3. Astral Body, or Linga-Sarira.=20 4. 4. Animal Soul, or Kama-Rupa=20 5. 5. Human Soul, or Manas.=20 6. 6. Spiritual Soul, or Buddhi.=20 7. 7. Spirit, or Atma,=20=20 (This Principle synthesizes the other 6) This classification stands for all practical purposes, a later arrangement places the Astral body second instead of third in the category. It at once gives an idea of what man is, very different from the vague description by the words "body and soul," and also boldly challenges the materialistic conception that mind is the product of brain.=20 The immortal trinity called Atma-Buddhi-Manas, are difficult terms to rende= r in English. ATMA is Spirit, BUDDHI is the highest power of intellection, that which discerns and judges, and MANAS is Mind.=20 This threefold collection is the Real Man.=20 REAL MAN:=20 Atma, or Spirit, [this is neither yours nor mine, but is a "ray" of the Universal Spirit],=09 Buddhi, or Discernment, Discrimination, Wisdom, [accumulated experience over eternity], Manas, or Mind. [thought, imagination, memory, fancy, choice, etc.] The four lower instruments or vehicles are shown in this table:=20 LOWER VEHICLES:=20 . Kama, or The Passions and Desires, [selfishness, ignorance, isolation, etc.] . Prana, or The Life Principle, [a portion of the Universal LIFE: Jiva] . Linga Sarira, or The Astral Body, [atoms and sub-atoms -- fields of force] . Sthula Sarira, or The Physical Body. [molecules, cells, structure, etc.] DEATH MARKS THE SEPARATION OF THE LOWER VEHICLE When the hour arrives for their separation to begin, the combination can no longer be kept up, the physical body dies, the atoms of which each of the four is composed begin to separate from each other, and the whole collectio= n being disjointed is no longer fit for one as an instrument for the real man= . This is what is called "death" among us mortals, but it is not death for th= e real man because he is deathless, persistent, immortal. He is therefore called the Triad, or indestructible trinity.=20 The Physical man is known as the Quaternary or Mortal Four.=20 . The visible physical man is:=20 . Brain, Nerves, Blood, Bones, Lymph, Muscles, Organs of Sensation and Action, Skin.=20 . The unseen physical man is:=20 . Astral Body, Passions and Desires, Life Principle (called prana or jiva).=20 It will be seen that the physical part of our nature is thus extended to a second department which, though invisible to the physical eye, is nevertheless material and subject to decay. Because people in general have been in the habit of admitting to be real only what they can see with the physical eye, they have at last come to suppose that the unseen is neither real nor material.=20 KAMA - DESIRE & PASSION ARE NOT MIND Kama, Desire and Passion is the fourth, the balance principle of the whole seven. It stands in the middle, and from it the ways go up or down. It is the basis of action, and the mover of the will. For whether we wish to do well or ill, we have to first arouse within us the desire for either course= . Then "We" choose. A "GOOD" MAN The "good" man who at last becomes a sage, had at one time in his many live= s to arouse the desire for the company of holy men and to keep his desire for progress alive in order to continue on his way. Even a Buddha or a Jesus ha= d first to make a vow, which is a desire, in some life, that he would save th= e world or some part of it, and to persevere with the desire alive in his heart through countless lives.=20 The high desires come from the influence of and aspiration to the trinity above, of Mind, Buddhi, and Spirit. The "God" within each of us, begins with Manas or Mind, and it is the struggle between this "God" and the "brute" below, which Theosophy speaks of and warns about.=20 A "BAD" MAN On the other hand, the "bad" man life after life took unto himself low, selfish, wicked desires, thus debasing instead of purifying this principle. The low passion and desire is that shown by the constant placing of the consciousness entirely below in the body and the astral body. It is selfis= h and isolates the man from others and his environment. It is an impossible, a false condition, and cannot be sustained indefinitely. MIND -- THE 5th PRINCIPLE, AND ATMA-BUDDHI=20 [THE MONAD] The fifth principle is MANAS, translated Mind -- it is the Knower, the Perceiver, the Thinker. The sixth is BUDDHI, or spiritual discernment; the seventh is ATMA, or SPIRIT, the ray from the Absolute Being. The course of evolution developed the lower principles and produced at last the form of man with a brain of better and deeper capacity than that of any other animal.=20=20 But this man in form was not man in mind, and needed the fifth principle, the thinking, perceiving one, to differentiate him from the animal kingdom and to confer the power of becoming self-conscious. The Immortal Monad, composed of Atma and Buddhi, was imprisoned in these forms, for without the presence of the monad, evolution could not go forward.=20 THE LIGHTING UP OF MANAS Going back for a moment to the time when the races of mankind were devoid o= f mind, the question arises, "Who gave the MIND, Where did it come from, and What is it ?"=20 It is the link between ATMA, the "Spirit of God above" and the "personality= " below. It was given to the mindless monads by others who had gone through this process ages upon ages before in earlier worlds and systems of worlds, and it came from other evolutionary periods which were completed long befor= e our solar system had begun. The manner in which this light of mind was give= n to the Mindless Men can be understood from the illustration of one candle lighting many. The Sons of Wisdom, who are the Elder Brothers of every family of men on any Globe, have the light, derived by them from others who reach back, and yet farther back, in endless procession with no beginning o= r end. They set fire to the combined lower principles and the Monad, thus lighting up Manas in the "new men" and preparing another great race for final initiation.=20 MANAS REINCARNATES Manas, or the Thinker, is the reincarnating being. It is the Immortal who carries the results and values of all the different lives lived on earth or elsewhere. Its nature becomes dual as soon as it is attached to a body. For the human brain is a superior organism and Manas [Mind] uses it to reason from premises to conclusions. This is the lower aspect of the Thinker or Manas, and not, as some have supposed, the highest and best gift belonging to man.=20 Its higher aspect, is the intuitional, which knows, and does not depend on reason. The lower, and purely intellectual, is nearest to the principle of Desire, and is thus distinguished from its other side, which has affinity for the spiritual principles above.=20 If the Thinker, becomes wholly intellectual, the entire nature begins to tend downward; for intellect alone is cold, heartless, selfish, since it is not lighted up by the two spiritually superior principles of Buddhi and Atma.=20 In Manas the thoughts of all lives are stored. The total quantity of life thoughts makes up the stream or thread of a life's meditation -- "that upon which the heart was set" -- and that is stored in Manas, to be brought out again at any time.=20 LOWER MANAS -- BRAIN-MIND It is this lower Manas which retains all the impressions of this life-time, and sometimes strangely exhibits them in trances or dreams, delirium, induced states, here and there in normal conditions, and very often at the time of physical death.=20 It interferes with the action of Higher Manas because at the present point of evolution, Desire and all corresponding powers, faculties, and senses ar= e the most highly developed. This obscures, as it were, the white light of the spiritual side of Manas. It is tinted by each object presented to it, whether it be a thought-object or a material one, and memory continually presents pictures to Lower Manas, with the result that the Higher is obscured. MEMORY AS A DEATH VISION Memory of a prior life is not needed to prove that we passed through that existence, nor is the fact of not remembering a good objection. We forget the greater part of the occurrences of the years and days of this life, but no one would say for that reason we did not go through these years. We are all subject to the limitations imposed upon the Ego by the new brain in eac= h life. This is why we are not able to keep the pictures of the past. The brain is the instrument for the memory of the soul, and, being new in each life, has only a certain capacity. That capacity will be fully availed of just according to the Ego's own desire and prior conduct, because past living will have increased or diminished its power. By living according to the dictates of the Soul, the brain may at least be made porous to the Soul's recollections; as the brain-matter had no part in the life last lived, it is in general unable to remember. And this is a wis= e law, for we should be very miserable if the deeds of our former lives were not hidden from our view until by discipline we become able to bear a knowledge of them.=20 HIGHER MANAS -- INTUITION, GENIUS. Higher Manas, if able to act, becomes what we sometimes call Genius. If Genius is completely master, then one may become a "God." Along the pathwa= y of life, we do see occasionally the marks of men who are geniuses, or great seers and prophets. In these the Higher powers of MANAS are active and the person is "illuminated." Such were the great Sages of the past, men in who= m Higher Manas was active. Presently, now and then, we may see MANAS shed a bright ray on the man below, to be soon obscured, however, by the effect of dogmatic religious education which has always prevented Manas from gaining full activity.=20 MATTER -- ALSO PERMANENT --=20 HAS BEEN THROUGH ALL FORMS The Permanent Individuality [Manas] has been through every sort of experience, for Theosophy insists on its permanence -- as an Immortal -- and in the necessity for its continuing to take part in evolution. It has a duty to perform, consisting in raising up to a higher state of consciousnes= s and intelligence, all the matter concerned in the chain of globes to which the earth belongs.=20 We have all lived and taken part in civilization after civilization, race after race, on earth, and will so continue throughout all the rounds and races until the seventh is complete.=20=20 AFTER DEATH STATES - CHRONOLOGY In chronological order we go into kama-loka -- or the plane of desire -- first on the demise of the body, and then, the higher principles, the Real Man, falls into the state of Devachan.=20=20 The breath leaves the body and we say the man is dead, but that is only the beginning of death; it proceeds on other planes. When the frame is cold and eyes closed, all the forces of the body and mind rush through the brain, an= d by a series of pictures the whole life just ended is imprinted indelibly on the Inner Man, not only in a general outline, but down to the smallest detail of even the most minute and fleeting impression.=20 At this moment, the real man is busy in the brain, and not until his work there is ended is the person gone. When this solemn work is over the astral body detaches itself from the physical, and, life energy having departed, the remaining five principles are in the plane of kama loka. This process takes about half an hour. The natural separation of the principles brought about by death divides the total man into three parts:=20 . First, the visible body with all its elements left to further disintegration on the earth plane, where all that it is composed of is in time resolved into the different physical departments of nature.=20 .=09 . Second, the kama rupa made up of the astral body and the passions and desires, which also begins at once to go to pieces on the astral plane;= =20 Second death -- transit from Kama-loka to Devachan -- Kama-rupa left behind in Kama-loka to disintegrate. .=09 . Third, the real man, the upper triad of Atma-Buddhi-Manas, deathless but now out of earth conditions, devoid of body, begins in devachan to function solely as mind clothed in a very ethereal vesture which it will shake off when the time comes for it to return to earth.=20 .=09 Kama loka -- or the place of desire -- is the astral region penetrating and surrounding the earth. As a place it is on and in and about the earth. Its extent is to a measurable distance from the earth, but the ordinary laws obtaining here do not obtain there, and entities therein are not under the same conditions as to space and time as we are.=20 DESIRES -- HAVE THEIR OWN PLACE It is called the plane of desire because it relates to the fourth principle= , and in it the ruling force is desire devoid of and divorced from intelligence. It is an astral sphere intermediate between earthly and heavenly life. The fact underlying this is that the soul may be detained in kama loka by the enormous force of some unsatisfied desire, and cannot get rid of the astral and kamic clothing until that desire is satisfied by some one on earth or by the soul itself.=20 But if the person was pure minded and of high aspirations, the separation o= f the principles on that plane is soon completed, permitting the Higher Triad to go into Devachan.=20 Being the purely astral sphere, it partakes of the nature of the astral matter which is essentially earthly and devilish, and in it all the forces work undirected by soul or conscience. It is the slag-pit, as it were, of the great furnace of life. In kama loka all the hidden desires and passions are let loose in consequence of the absence of body, and for that reason the state is vastly more diversified than the life plane.=20 It is generally supposed that the desires and passions are inherent tendencies in the individual, and they have an altogether unreal and misty appearance for the ordinary student. While the man is living in the world, the desires and passions -- the principle kama -- have no separate life apart from the astral and inner man, being diffused throughout his being.=20 During mortal life the desires and passions are guided by the mind and soul= ; after death they work without guidance from the former master; while we liv= e we are responsible for them and their effects, and when we have left this life we are still responsible, although they go on working and making effects on others and without our direct guidance. In this is seen the continuance of responsibility.=20 In kama are the really active and important tendencies and Skandhas are being made from day to day under the law that every thought combines instantly with one of the elemental forces of nature, becoming to that extent an entity which will endure in accordance with the strength of the thought as it leaves the brain, and all of these are inseparably connected with the being who evolved them. There is no way of escaping; all we can do is to have thoughts of good quality, for the highest of the Masters themselves are not exempt from this law, but they "people their current in space" with entities powerful for good alone.=20 Now in kama loka this mass of desire and thought exists very definitely. Hence it is said to remain until the being comes out of devachan, and then at once by the law of attraction it is drawn to the being, who from it as basis builds up a new set of skandhas for the new life. Every atom going to make up the man has a memory of its own which is capable of lasting a lengt= h of time in proportion to the force given it.=20 In the case of a very material and gross or selfish person the force lasts longer than in any other. Its purely astral portion contains and carries th= e record of all that ever passed before the person when living, for one of th= e qualities of the astral substance is to absorb all scenes and pictures and the impressions of all thoughts, to keep them, and to throw them forth by reflection when the conditions permit.=20 DEVACHAN Struggling out of the body Atma-Buddhi-Manas, begins to think in a manner different from that which the body and brain permitted in life. This is the state of Devachan, Sanskrit : "the place of the gods." The Self in Devachan is devoid of a mortal body. The stay in Devachan is proportionat= e to the merit earned by the being in its last life [from a few years to as much as 100 centuries -- the average being about 1500 years] and when the mental forces peculiar to the state are exhausted, "the being is drawn down again to be reborn in the world of mortals."=20 Devachan is therefore an interlude between births in the world. The law of karma which forces us all to enter the world, being ceaseless in its operation and also universal in scope, acts also on the being in devachan, for only by the force or operation of Karma are we taken out of devachan.=20 The last series of powerful and deeply imprinted thoughts are those which give color and trend to the whole life in devachan. The last moment will color each subsequent moment. On those the soul and mind fix themselves and weave of them a whole set of events and experiences, expanding them to thei= r highest limit, carrying out all that was not possible in life.=20 WHY DEVACHAN ? The necessity for this state after death is one of the necessities of evolution growing out of the nature of Mind and Soul. The very nature of manas requires a devachanic state as soon as the body is lost, and it is simply the effect of loosening the bonds placed upon the mind by its physical and astral encasement. In life we can but to a fractional extent act out the thoughts we have each moment; and still less can we exhaust the psychic energies engendered by each day's aspirations and dreams. The energ= y thus engendered is not lost or annihilated, but is stored in Manas, but the body, brain, and astral body permit no full development of the force. Hence= , held latent until death, it bursts then from the weakened bonds and plunges Manas, the thinker, into the expansion, use, and development of the thought-force set up in life.=20 The whole process is remedial, restful, and beneficial. For if the average man returned at once to another body in the same civilization he had just quitted, his soul would be completely tired out and deprived of the needed opportunity for the development of the higher part of his nature.=20 Now the Ego clothes itself in devachan with a vesture which can be styled means or vehicle, and it functions entirely on the plane of mind and soul. Everything is as real then to the being as this world seems to be to us. It has obtained the opportunity to make its own world for itself unhampered by the clogs of physical life. Its state may be compared to that of the poet o= r artist who, rapt in ecstasy cares not for and knows not of either time or objects of the world.=20 This question while dealing with what earth-men call time does not, of course, touch the real meaning of time itself, that is, of what may be in fact for this solar system the ultimate order, precedence, succession, and length of moments. But the Ego remains in devachan for a time exactly proportioned to the psychic impulses generated during life. Now this being = a matter which deals with the mathematics of the soul, no one but a Master ca= n tell what the time would be for the average man of this century in every land. That average, is fifteen hundred years in general and not a fixed one= . Desperately materialistic thinkers will remain in the devachanic condition stupefied or asleep, as it were, as they have no forces in them appropriate to that state save in a very vague fashion, and for them it can be very truly said that there is no state after death so far as mind is concerned; they are torpid for a while, and then they live again on earth.=20 Existence in Devachan is an actual stage in the life of man, and when we ar= e there this present life is a dream. It is not in any sense monotonous. Contrasted with the continuous strain of earth life, Nature, always kind, leads us soon again into "heaven" for a rest, for the flowering of the best and highest in our natures.=20 Devachan is then neither meaningless nor useless. "In it we are rested; tha= t part of us which could not bloom under the chilling skies of earth-life bursts forth into flower and goes back with us to earth-life stronger and more a part of our nature than before. Why should we repine that Nature kindly aids us in the interminable struggle, why keep the mind revolving about the present petty personality and its good and evil fortunes?" (Letter from Mahatma K. H. See PATH, p. 191, Vol. 5.)=20 A question to consider is whether we here can reach those in devachan or do they come here. We cannot reach them nor affect them unless we are Adepts. The claim of mediums to hold communion with the SPIRITS of the dead is baseless, and still less valid is the claim of ability to help those who have gone to devachan. The Mahatma, a being who has developed all his power= s and is free from illusion, can go into the devachanic state and then communicate with the Egos there. Such is one of their functions. They deal with certain entities in devachan for the purpose of getting them out of th= e state so as to return to earth for the benefit of the race. The Egos they thus deal with are those whose nature is great and deep but who are not wis= e enough to be able to overcome the natural illusions of devachan. =20 The whole period allotted by the soul's forces being ended in devachan, the magnetic threads which bind it to earth begin to assert their power. The Self wakes from the dream, it is borne swiftly off to a new body, and then, just before birth, it sees for a moment all the causes that led it to devachan and back to the life it is about to begin, and knowing it to be al= l just, to be the result of its own past life, it repines not but takes up th= e cross again -- and another soul has come back to earth. [from The OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY (Judge)] DTB =20 -----Original Message----- From: Cass=20 Dear Leon It seems to me that we, like IT, are in manifestation to "know that we know ourselves".=20=20 When we die and are in a purely subjective state we cannot verify our own existence but only know that subjective state of all knowing without verification (when we are dead).=20=20 I am not looking forward to that, a little centre of consciousness, ruminating on past lives and, making vows to "do things differently, next time," without being able to say to someone, "Hey, what do you think?" >From a little point of consciousnessess point of view, I think it could get pretty lonely being omniscient. Cass =20 From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Dec 29 16:07:01 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 89463 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 00:07:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 00:07:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.37) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 00:06:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Dec 2004 00:06:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.145] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Dec 2004 00:06:57 -0000 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:06:25 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002e01c4ece6$e75977d0$5806f4d8@DALLAS> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 25115 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.37 From: "silva_cass" X-Originating-IP: 211.28.163.14 Subject: Re: Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Dear Dallas, I thought Anand's comment on Judge was rhetorical? But I did notice in your passage Olcott's "hatred" for Judge. Regardless of who is the CEO and where the Corporation spreads, surely any branch that carries the name of Theosophy should work together, to harmonise the conflicts. How can Theosophy stand as the beacon for Truth, when its various departments keep throwing mud at each other, defence - attack, attack - defence in the name of Truth. He said, she said, Isn't it time to bury the hatchet? Nobody can change what has been said by members of the Society in the past, a continual defense and recant of other's work, undermines all the good work that has been done, as we would appear as squabbling little children in the playground of Theosophy. There is room for the Purists -those who follow HPB's teachings as the only source - and for Non-Purists, those who read what others have said. Even if the two are in opposition on certain points, let it be, it won't send anyone to the portals of hell or set them back on the path. Let the seeker find their own truth in their own time. HPB admitted that there were times she made mistakes, after all she was still human. And now a question for you. In Isis HPB says that a soul never re-incarnates into the same cycle (and on the same planet?) In another passage she says that Devachan can range from 1000-3000 years. Perhaps I am misquoting, and I am certainly not challenging her authenticity, but asking for an explanation of what we think really happens. As there are many cases in the world of reincarnating egos returning to the same village etc. Regards Cass --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: > Dec 27, 2004 > > Dear Friend Anand: > > Somehow I think you are missing the point. Do you think you are aiding the > cause of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY ? > > Don't you think that the TS exists because of THEOSOPHY ? > > I wonder if you know what THEOSOPHY is ? > > Have you actually read H P B's The KEY TO THEOSOPHY ? > > I think about what you write. You are an enthusiast for the THEOSOPHICAL > SOCIETY, which is good, providing you know what the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY > actually stands for. > > But, you will have to pardon me, as it seems from what you write you are > ignorant of many of the aspects of the history of recent THEOSOPHICAL > MOVEMENT (1875 to date), or you would not make some of the baseless and > inaccurate statements that you do. > > It is also quite apparent that you have read little or nothing of what W. Q. > Judge wrote. Your question, as phrased by you, is redundant, provocative as > well as unbrotherly. Do you know that Mr. Judge was one of the founders of > the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY? > > You appear to me, excuse the characterization, to be a brash newcomer with > much to learn, and, instead of asking questions you produce inaccurate > statements. I wonder what the senior members of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY > think of them? > > May I suggest some study and a more careful set of expressions? > > Further: Have you observed that the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY was originated to > fulfil three objects? > > > "ENQUIRER. What are the objects of the "Theosophical Society"? > > THEOSOPHIST. They are three, and have been so from the beginning. > > (1.) To form the nucleus of a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity without > distinction of race, colour, or creed. > > 2.) To promote the study of Aryan and other Scriptures, of the World's > religion and sciences, and to vindicate the importance of old Asiatic > literature, namely, of the Brahmanical, Buddhist, and Zoroastrian > philosophies. > > (3.) To investigate the hidden mysteries of Nature under every aspect > possible, and the psychic and spiritual powers latent in man especially. > > These are, broadly stated, the three chief objects of the Theosophical > Society." > The KEY TO THEOSOPHY p. 39. > > > If one desires to discover what THEOSOPHY is, then by studying the basic > books and articles written by Mme. H P Blavatsky, the accredited Agent of > the Masters of Wisdom, you may discover a part of the following: > > > FUNDAMENTAL DOCTRINES OF THEOSOPHY > > 1.) the individual immortality of all Monads that fill the entirety of > Space, this includes the least as well as the highest of Spiritual Souls; > > 2.) the common bond of Karma (law) which serves as a basis for all > interaction, as it unites the causal motives for all action, done by > anything or anyone, with the exact results returning to the individual being > that generated them; > > 3.) a process of evolution that is continuous and extends from the > smallest part of the vast UNIVERSE to its utmost limits, the least has the > same potentials of the most advanced; and is for ever in contact with every > other entity or part of the whole Universe; > > 4.) a common goal for all units has been called: SPIRITUAL PERFECTION. > It is open for all, and embraces all that can be known of the Universe and > its uncountable components. That is: Maha-Buddhi, or, Universal WISDOM. > > As far as I can determine, there is no "Judge Society." > > 1 What do you mean by that designation? > > 2 How do you detect any "hatred" of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY ? > > H P B, Olcott and Judge were the only three of the original founders of the > THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY (1875) in New York who sustained and maintained it till > their death. Mr. Judge was appointed Vice President of the THEOSOPHICAL > SOCIETY by Olcott. This was done on the basis of the Masters' order. > > "1888, Dec. 27-29th WQJ Appointed Vice-President T.S. > > On December 27-29th, 1888 at a customary, but informal, annual > Convention held at the T S Adyar Headquarters, Col. Olcott PTS nominated Mr. > Judge Vice-President. (CWB X, p. XXVIII). > > 1888 > Another resolution was passed on a policy of reorganizing the T S on > lines of autonomous Sections. In 1890 Mr. Judge was officially elected > Vice-President under new Rules made by the General Council T S under Col. > Olcott. > OLD DIARY LEAVES, Vol. IV, pp. 74-83." > > As far as I can see and read, I detect I all that has been written, a > constant proffer of assistance and a constant gentle urging to all its > membership to study THEOSOPHY and know exactly what it is. Further, to know > their own history, objectives and development. > > In this connection I suggest you read The THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (1875-1950). > (350 pages) I believed it costs about $ 7.50 plus postage. It is also > available at most Theosophical libraries. > > Early in the KEY to THEOSOPHY, H. P. Blavatsky writes to establish some > basis in the mind of the reader of what Theosophy stands for. > > In part, she states: > > THEOSOPHY IS GODLIKE WISDOM, the word "Theosophy" was found used by > Pythagoras, a contemporary of Gautama the Buddha. It is divine knowledge or > science, such as that possessed by the "Gods." > > ITS FIRST OBJECT IS TO INCULCATE CERTAIN GREAT MORAL TRUTHS upon its > disciples. > > Other objects are: TO RECONCILE ALL RELIGIONS.under a common system of > ethics, based on eternal verities. > > And by demonstrating their identical origin, to establish one universal > creed based on ethics. Additionally it aims to reinstate and restore to its > primitive integrity the wisdom of the ancients. > > The WISDOM RELIGION (Theosophy) was ever one, and being the last word of > possible human thought, was therefore carefully preserved It will survive > every other religion and philosophy. > > Ancient theosophists claimed that the divine essence could be communicated > to the higher Spiritual Self in a state of ecstasy. The latter (also named > "samadhi") is practised by its devotees. It is an incessant endeavour to > purify and elevate the mind. It is: "the ardent turning of the soul, > towards the divine;" not to ask for any particular good, but for the > universal Supreme Good for ALL. > > It states that those ETHICS ARE THE SOUL OF THE WISDOM RELIGION, and are the > common property of the initiates of all nations. Sri Krishna the great > Avatar proclaimed them at the beginning of the present "Kali Yuga" in his > "Gita - song" -- teaching them to Arjuna. And we are all "Arjunas," His > pupils. > > But Gautama Buddha was the first to embody those in his public teachings. It > is the ethics of the Universe, that have always been the most insisted upon. > > > All these are now called "Theosophical doctrines," because they form part of > the knowledge of the initiates. > > These doctrines belong exclusively to no religion, and are confined to no > society or time. They are the birthright of every human soul. Those who > have imagined Theosophy to be a new religion have hunted in vain for its > creed and ritual. > > Its creed is Loyalty to Truth, and its ritual "To honor every truth by use." > > > The THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY was organized on this one principle, the essential > Brotherhood of Man. We hold to no religion, as to no philosophy in > particular: we cull the good we find in each. The T S was established as a > philanthropic and scientific body for the propagation of the ideas of > brotherhood on a practical instead of theoretical lines. > > The T S cannot make a Theosophist of one who has no sense for the divine > fitness of things. > > "THEOSOPHIST IS, WHO THEOSOPHY DOES." > > How is this to be accomplished by those individuals who determine to adopt > this as their personally policy of life? > > It is a difficult undertaking, as the foremost rule is the entire > renunciation of one's personality. He has to become a thorough altruist, > never to think of himself, and to forget his own vanity and pride in the > thought of the good of his fellow creatures, to live a life of abstinence in > everything, of self-denial and strict morality, doing his duty by all men. > > If one asks what advantages are received from such a program, the answer is > given: "deriving much strength from mutual aid and sympathy." > > UNION IS STRENGTH AND HARMONY, AND WELL-REGULATED SIMULTANEOUS EFFORTS > PRODUCE WONDERS. > > This has been the secret of all associations and communities since mankind > existed. Its aims and true goal are several, primarily the relief of human > suffering, moral as well as physical. Theosophy has to inculcate ethics; it > has to purify the soul, if it would relieve the physical body. > > AN OCCULTIST PRACTICES SCIENTIFIC THEOSOPHY, BASED ON AN ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE > OF NATURE'S SECRET WORKINGS. > > The divine spark in man being one and identical in its essence with the > Universal Spirit, our "spiritual Self" is practically omniscient, but it > cannot manifest its knowledge owing to the impediments of matter. The more > these impediments are removed, the physical body paralyzed, as to its own > independent activity and consciousness, the more fully can the Inner Self > manifest on this plane. > > OUR BELIEFS ARE ALL FOUNDED ON THAT IMMORTAL INDIVIDUALITY. > > Spirit is potential matter, and matter is simply crystallized Spirit, yet > the original and eternal condition of all is not Spirit, but META- SPIRIT > (visible and solid matter being simply its periodical manifestations) we > maintain that the term Spirit can only be applied to the True Individuality. > > SELFISHNESS IS ESSENTIALLY CONSERVATIVE and hates being disturbed. The > power of mental inertia is great in anything that does not promise immediate > benefit and reward. Our age is predominately unspiritual, and matter of > fact. > > Some Theosophical doctrines contradict flatly many of the human vagaries > cherished by sectarians -- vagaries and errors which have eaten into the > core, the very heart of popular beliefs. > > The result is that AN ENTIRELY UNSELFISH CODE APPEALS TO A VERY LIMITED > CLASS -- thus producing slow, up-hill results. > > It is essentially the philosophy of those who suffer, and have lost all hope > of being helped out of the mire of life by any other means.. > > To me it is important that the philosophy and the logic of Nature be exposed > and referred to, rather than any opinion, mine or another's. Opinions > fluctuate. Facts are stable. > > In a sentence: We are born this life into a condition, a nation, a > community, which enables us under karma (which we created for ourselves by > past choosing) to receive and make the best learning change for our own > advance. > > Additionally, with knowledge that is true and universal, our choices can be > molded to assist all we are connected to. In this we will be true brothers > and helpful as a quiet example to all. > > To 'understand' another means to be able to mentally step into their "shoes" > and perceive their source of opinion. Then weighing ours and theirs > (opinions) we can refer them to an ideal -- a moral norm. From that we can > derive at least for ourselves what we ought to do. > > I hope this is of help, > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > ============================ > > PS > > JUDGE AS FOUNDER AND VICE PRESIDENT of the T S > > ORIGINAL FOUNDERS of the T S in 1875 > > Names And History > > The following sixteen persons were the ones who during a meeting on > September 8, 1875 took the decision of founding the Theosophical Society. > > HELENA P. BLAVATSKY Cor. Secy. - died May 8, 1891 > > HENRY S. OLCOTT P T S - died February 7, 1907 (?) > > W. L. ALDEN - left the T.S. on 1881. > > Mrs. EMMA HARDINGE BRITTEN -- left the Society very soon but she had a > certain amount of contact with its leaders until 1890. > > DR. W. BRITTEN -- husband of Mrs. Emma, left the T.S. early. > > JOHN STORER COBB -- in 1878 he lost interest and disappeared. > > GEORGE H. FELT - in 1877 he was in England proposing the formation of a > Society for occult research with himself as President. Nothing came of this > proposal; no additional information > > H. HYSLOP -- he placed his signature; no more information > > WILLIAM QUAN JUDGE -- He became one of the most important figures in the > Society. "Difficulties" arose after the death of HPB, which led to the > independence of the American Section of the T S, renamed The THEOSOPHICAL > SOCIETY in America in 1895.. > Mr. Judge died March 25, 1896. > > D. E. DE LARA -- learned gentleman of Portuguese -Hebrew extraction; he > seems to have remained a member till he died. > > CHARLES CARLETON MASSEY - English barrister and literateur. > Left the T.S. in 1879; died 1905. > > HERBERT D. MONACHESI -- a newspaper reporter; Italian by birth; > dropped out. > > HENRY J. NEWTON -- elected Treasurer; withdrew when he found nobody was > going to show him either Adepts or elementals. > > C. E. SIMMONS -- a well-known New York physician; no more information. > > CHARLES SOTHERAN -- after HPB and HSO left for India, no mention about him. > > H. M. STEVENS -- he placed his signature; no more information > > -------------------------------- > > Other founders who were not present on the September 8, 1975 meeting were: > > Dr. Seth Pancoast -- remained a member till he passed away in 1889. > > Judge R. B. Westbrook - in 1877 he was made Vice-President of the > Theosophical Society; no more information. > > Rev. J. H. Wiggin - resigned before end 1875. > > ---------------------------------------- > > see BLAVATSKY: Collected Works (TPH) Vol. 1 > > ================== > > NOTE by Dallas TenBroeck > > > The "difficulties" were created by vague charges and accusations made by > Mrs. Annie Besant concerning Mr. W. Q. Judge as Vice-President T S in 1894. > > Mr. Judge, Vice-President T S was exonerated of all charges in London, July > 1894 by a Judicial Committee headed by Col. Olcott, P T S. > > He did not "lead a secession" > > Col. Olcott had granted the American Section leave to form a separate > Section. [Per letter seen and described and printed by Mr. Smythe of Canada > T S who was present when it was received by Mr. Judge in New York - - > published in CANADIAN THEOSOPHIST. Col. Olcott granted the American Section > leave to form an independent Section for efficiency in administrative > processes, owing to the large size of that Section.] > > Further details are > > -------------------------------- > > > ON AUTONOMY > > > [ The following quotations deserve their place here in view of the assertion > still made in the T S, Adyar that The American Theosophists and Mr. > W.Q.Judge "seceded" from the T.S. --DTB ] > > > A 1893 Letter from Col. Olcott > > Mr. A.E.S. Smythe, President T S in Canada, wrote the Editors of THEOSOPHY > [ reported on p. 11 of the March 15th issue of Canadian Theosophist, for > 1923, Vol. 4, # 1 ] quoting a letter addressed in 1893 by Col. Olcott, > P.T.S. to Mr. Judge in which he read the following : > > > "If you want separate Theosophical Societies made out of the > Sections, have them by all means. I offered this years ago > to H.P.B. and even to A.P.S." [ from: Olcott, P T S ] > > > In the Canadian Theosophist, Vol. X, July 1929, pp 156-7 Mr. A.E.S.Smythe, > President wrote: > > > "The splitting of the Society was the act of Colonel Olcott who hated Judge. > Judge had expected that the Colonel would recognize the autonomous T.S. in > America and affiliate it with Adyar, but Olcott changed his mind and refused > to do this, and Judge...was much disappointed with the Colonel's refusal. > > I was in the office at 144 Madison Avenue when Judge received a letter from > Olcott postmarked and stamped from Spain, and Judge remarked 'Now everything > will be all right.' But the letter was not what Judge expected and his > disappointment was very obvious. This phase of the situation has never been > explained, and I have never been able to learn whether Judge counted with > warrant on Olcott's support, or whether it was really a right- about-face on > Olcott's part, for Judge certainly expected Olcott to support him. Judge > had collected $ 17,000.00 in America and sent it to Olcott when the Adyar > treasurer embezzled that amount...Judge and Besant were all right till > H.P.B. died and we can honour and depend upon them up till that point. > After May 8, 1891 we have had to depend upon ourselves and should be > charitable to our neighbours." > -- A. E. S. Smythe. " > > > [ From HPB: "Why I do not Return to India" -- letter > > April, 1890 > "...the name alone of the holy Masters...has wrought a mighty change for the > better in your land [India]...so long as I remained at Adyar, things went on > smoothly enough, because one or other of the Masters was almost constantly > present among us, and their spirit ever protected the T.S. from real > harm...[1884] It was during that time and Colonel Olcott's absence in Burma, > that the seeds of all future strifes, and...disintegration of the T.S., were > planned by our enemies... I say, at that critical moment, if the members of > the Society, and especially its leaders at Adyar, Hindu and European, had > stood together as one man, firm in their conviction of the reality and power > of the Masters, Theosophy would have come out more triumphantly than ever, > and none of their fears would have ever been realized...In spite of my > protests, I was hurried away from Headquarters... and immediately intrigues > and rumors began...it was rumored that I had been abandoned by the Masters, > been disloyal to Them...I was accused of being, at best, a hallucinated > medium, who had mistaken "spooks" for living Masters...others declared that > the real H.P.Blavatsky was dead...and that the form had been forthwith > seized upon by a Dugpa Chela...I was a witch, a sorceress...In fact the > powers of psychology attributed to me by my enemies...are so great that they > alone would have made of me a most remarkable Adept--independently of any > Masters or Mahatmas, with the exception of Colonel Olcott, everyone seemed > to banish the Masters from their thoughts and Their spirit from > Adyar...since my departure...the activity of the movement there gradually > slackened... > > Acting under Master's orders I began a new movement in the West on the > original lines; I founded Lucifer, and the Lodge which bears my name...I > learned that I was once more wanted in India--at any rate by some. But the > invitation came too late; neither would my doctor permit it, nor can I, if > I would remain true to my life-pledge and vows, now live at the Headquarters > from which the Masters and Their spirit are virtually banished. The > presence of Their portraits will not help; They are a dead letter...no > advice of mine on occult lines seems likely to be accepted, as the fact of > my relations with the Masters is doubted, even totally denied by some...the > spread of Theosophy and of the T.S. in the West, during the last three > years, has been extraordinary...I was enabled and encouraged by the devotion > of an ever increasing number of members to the Cause and to Those who guide > it, to establish an Esoteric Section, in which I can teach something of what > I have learned to those who have confidence in me, and who prove this by > their disinterested work for Theosophy and the T.S. The only claim, > therefore, which India could ever have upon me would be strong only in > proportion to the activity of the Fellows there for Theosophy and their > loyalty to the Masters. > > Thenceforth let it be clearly understood that the rest of my life is devoted > only to those who believe in the Masters, and are willing to work for > Theosophy as They understand it, and for the T.S. on the lines upon which > They originally established it. > -- HPB "WHY I DO NOT RETURN TO INDIA" > > [ This letter from HPB was written and sent with B. Keightley, April 1890. > Published in Theosophist, January 1922. HPB Articles I, pp., 108 - 114 ] > > > "...the Esoteric Section has nothing whatever to do with the T.S., its > Council or officers. It is a Section entirely apart from the exoteric body, > and independent of it. H.P.B. alone being responsible for its members...the > E.S. as a body, owes no allegiance whatever to the T.S., as a Society, least > of all to Adyar...H.P.B. is loyal to the death to the Theosophical CAUSE, > and those great Teachers whose philosophy can alone bind the whole of > Humanity into one Brotherhood...Therefore the degree of her sympathies with > the "T.S. and Adyar" depends upon the degree of the loyalty of that Society > to the CAUSE. Let it break away from the original lines and show disloyalty > in its policy to the CAUSE and the original programme of the Society, and > H.P.B. calling the T.S. disloyal, will shake it off like dust from her feet. > > And what does "loyalty to Adyar" mean, in the name of all wonders? What is > Adyar, apart from that CAUSE and the two (not one Founder) who represent it > ? ... > > There is no longer a "Parent Society;" it is abolished and replaced by an > aggregate body of Theosophical societies, all autonomous, as are the States > of America, and all under one Head President, who, together with > H.P.Blavatsky, will champion the Cause against the whole world. Such is the > real state of things...a Council which is liable at any moment to issue > silly and untheosophical ukases...in a Society which owes its life to them > [she and Col. Olcott], and for which they are both karmically > responsible...she will ever protest against the decision of the General > Council, were it composed of Archangels and Dhyan Chohans themselves, if > their decisions seem to her unjust or untheosophical, or fails to meet with > the approval of the majority of the Fellows. No more than H.P.Blavatsky has > the President Founder the right to exercise autocracy or papal powers...It > is the two Founders and especially the President, who have virtually sworn > allegiance to the Fellows, whom they have to protect, and teach those who > want to be taught, and not to tyrannize and rule over them." > -- H P B "A PUZZLE FROM ADYAR" Lucifer, Aug. 1889 > HPB Articles, Vol. I, pp. 219-220 > > > "...Sections and Branches like the "London Lodge" and others which are > autonomous...Is not the Blavatsky Lodge, like the London, Dublin, or any > other "Lodge," a branch of, and a Theosophical Society ?" HPB Articles > I 221 > > > ==================================== > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anand Gholap > Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 2:45 PM > To: > Subject: Did Judge teach hatred ? > > > It can be easily observed that many members of Judge Society spend > half the time in criticizing leaders of Adyar TS. > > Is this what Judge taught ? > > Anand Gholap From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Dec 29 17:27:33 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 93566 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 01:27:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 01:27:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 01:27:32 -0000 Received: from [209.179.223.228] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cjp5q-0002ip-GT; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:27:20 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance:In-Reply-To; b=dU+mdYXuf4fRxrze84Ve5a1BtP9lybF1hIzpu7Vd6IM1tPeCmZdg4uSIBjwRI/bR; To: Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:26:49 -0800 Message-ID: <001801c4ee0e$af2559f0$0f8fb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79a24f92dabcd8468a3cbc496fce9140ec350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.65 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.223.228 Subject: RE: Re: Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 29 2004 Dear Friend: Re: A G No mud slinging is intended. But history ought to be respected. Pointing to it as evidence is not "mud-slinging." It is restitution.=20=20 When there is "another side" it needs to pointed to by whomsoever raises th= e question -- to be fair to all sides -- on the basis of "a level field." = =20 A G made an unsubstantiated statement concerning one who was an original Founder of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY, Mr. W. Q. Judge The position of bein= g a founder was not my point, but the real question is (1) "What did he write and teach? And (2) How did he work for THEOSOPHY in America (for example) between 1875 and 1896? Concerning REINCARNATION and ISIS UNVEILED=20=20=20 Here is what HPB wrote: -------------------------------------- 1 "ISIS UNVEILED" AND THE "THEOSOPHIST" ON REINCARNATION H. P. Blavatsky IN Light (July 8) C.C.M. quotes from the THEOSOPHIST (June 1882) a sentence which appeared in the Editor's Note at the foot of an article headed "Seeming Discrepancies." ...... Answer We hope not--for Koot Hoomi's sake. Mme. B. would become too vain and too proud, could she but dream of such an honour. But how true the remark of th= e French classic: La critique est ais=E9e, mais l'art est difficile [To criticise is easy, Art is hard.] --though we feel more inclined to hang our diminished head in sincere sorrow and exclaim: Et tu Brute!--than to quote old truisms.=20 Only, where that (even) "seeming discrepancy" is to be found between the tw= o passages--except by those who are entirely ignorant of the occult doctrine--will be certainly a mystery to every Eastern Occultist who reads the above and who studies at the same school as the reviewer of "The Perfec= t Way."=20 Nevertheless the latter is chosen as the weapon to break our head with. It is sufficient to read No. 1 of the FRAGMENTS OF OCCULT TRUTH, and ponder over the septenary constitution of man into which the triple human entity i= s divided by the occultists, to perceive that the "astral" monad is not the "Spiritual" monad and vice versa.=20 That there is no discrepancy whatsoever between the two statements, may be easily shown, and we hope will be shown, by our friend the "reviewer." The most that can be said of the passage quoted from Isis is, that it is incomplete, chaotic, vague, perhaps--clumsy, as many more passages in that work, the first literary production of a foreigner, who even now can hardly boast of her knowledge of the English language.=20 Therefore, in the face of the statement from the very correct and excellent review of "The Perfect Way"--we say again that "Reincarnation, i.e., the appearance of the same individual--or rather, of his astral monad (or the personality as claimed by the modern Reincarnationists)--twice on the same planet is not a rule in nature "and that it is an exception."=20 Let us try once more to explain our meaning. The reviewer speaks of the "Spiritual Individuality" or the Immortal Monad as it is called, i.e. the 7th and 6th Principles [ATMA & BUDDHI] in the Fragments.=20 In Isis we refer to the personality or the Finite astral monad, a compound of imponderable elements composed of the 5th and 4th principles [MANAS & KAMA]. The former as an emanation of the ONE absolute is indestructible; th= e latter as an elementary compound is finite and doomed sooner or later to destruction with the exception of the more spiritualized portions of the 5t= h principle (the Manas or mind) which are assimilated by the 6th principle [BUDDHI] when it follows the 7th [ATMA] to its "gestation state" to be reborn or not reborn, as the case may be, in the Arupa Loka (the Formless World).=20 The seven principles, forming, so to say, a triad and a Quaternary, or, as some have it a "Compound Trinity" subdivided into a triad and two duads may be better understood in the following groups of Principles :=20 =20 And now we ask,--where is the "discrepancy" or contradiction? Whether man was good, bad, or indifferent, Group II has to become either a "shell," or to be once or several times more reincarnated under "exceptional circumstances." There is a mighty difference in our Occult doctrine between an impersonal Individuality, and an individual Personality. C.C.M. will not be reincarnated; nor will he be in his next re-birth C.C.M., but quite a new being, born of the thoughts and deeds of C.C.M.: his own creation, the chil= d and fruit of his present life, the effect of the causes he is now producing= . Shall we say then with the Spiritists that C.C.M., the man, we know, will b= e re-born again?=20 No; but that his divine Monad will be clothed thousands of times yet before the end of the Grand Cycle, in various human forms, every one of them a new personality. Like a mighty tree that clothes itself every spring with a new foliage, to see it wither and die towards autumn, so the eternal Monad prevails through the series of smaller cycles, ever the same, yet ever changing and putting on, at each birth, a new garment. The bud, that failed to open one year, will re-appear in the next; the leaf that reached its maturity and died a natural death--can never be re-born on the same tree again. While writing Isis, we were not permitted to enter into details; hence--the vague generalities. We are told to do so now--and we do as we ar= e commanded. =20 And thus, it seems, after all, that "two and three" will "make just four," if the "three" was only mistaken for that number. And, we have heard of cases when that, which was universally regarded and denounced as something very "black"--shockingly so--suddenly re-became "white," as soon as an additional light was permitted to shine upon it. Well, the day may yet come when even the much misunderstood occultists will appear in such a light. Vaut mieux tard que jamais! [Better late than never.] Meanwhile we will wait and see whether C.C.M. will quote again from our present answer--in Light.=20 Theosophist, August, 1882=20 ----------------------------------------------------------- 2 =09 THEORIES ABOUT REINCARNATION AND SPIRITS] H. P. Blavatsky Over and over again the abstruse and mooted question of Rebirth or Reincarnation has crept out during the first ten years of the Theosophical Society's existence. It has been alleged on prima facie evidence, that a notable discrepancy was found between statements made in Isis Unveiled, Vol= . I, 351-2, and later teachings from the same pen and under the inspiration o= f the same master. 1=20 In Isis, it was held, reincarnation is denied. An occasional return, only o= f "depraved spirits" is allowed. "Exclusive of that rare and doubtful possibility, Isis allows only three cases--abortion, very early death, and idiocy--in which reincarnation on this earth occurs." ("C.C.M." in Light, 1882.)=20 The charge was answered then and there as every one who will turn to the THEOSOPHIST of August, 1882, can see for himself. Nevertheless, the answer either failed to satisfy some readers or passed unnoticed.=20 Leaving aside the strangeness of the assertion that reincarnation--i.e., th= e serial and periodical rebirth of every individual monad from pralaya to pralaya 2 is denied in the face of the fact that the doctrine is part and parcel and one of the fundamental features of Hinduism and Buddhism, the charge amounted virtually to this: the writer of the present, a professed admirer and student of Hindu philosophy, and as professed a follower of Buddhism years before Isis was written, by rejecting reincarnation must necessarily reject KARMA likewise! For the latter is the very cornerstone o= f Esoteric philosophy and Eastern religions; it is the grand and one pillar o= n which hangs the whole philosophy of rebirths, and once the latter is denied= , the whole doctrine of Karma falls into meaningless verbiage. =20 Nevertheless, the opponents without stopping to think of the evident "discrepancy" between charge and fact, accused a Buddhist by profession of faith of denying reincarnation hence also by implication--Karma. Adverse to wrangling with one who was a friend, and undesirous at the time to enter upon a defence of details and internal evidence--a loss of time indeed--the writer answered merely with a few sentences. But it now becomes necessary t= o well define the doctrine. Other critics have taken the same line, and by misunderstanding the passages to that effect in Isis they have reached the same rather extraordinary conclusions.=20 To put an end to such useless controversies, it is proposed to explain the doctrine more clearly.=20 Although, in view of the later more minute renderings of the esoteric doctrines, it is quite immaterial what may have been written in Isis--an encyclopedia of occult subjects in which each of these is hardly sketched--let it be known at once, that the writer maintains the correctnes= s of every word given out upon the subject in my earlier volumes. What was said in the Theosophist of August, 1882, may now be repeated here.=20 The passage quoted from it may be, and is, most likely "incomplete, chaotic= , vague, perhaps clumsy, as are many more passages in that work, the first literary production of a foreigner who even now can hardly boast of her knowledge of the English language." Nevertheless it is quite correct so far as that collateral feature of reincarnation is therein concerned. =20 I will now give extracts from Isis and proceed to explain every passage criticized, wherein it was said that "a few fragments of this mysterious doctrine of reincarnation as distinct from metempsychosis"--would be then presented. Sentences now explained are in italics.=20 Reincarnation i.e., the appearance of the same individual, or rather of his astral monad, twice on the same planet is not a rule in nature, it is an exception, like the teratological phenomenon of a two-headed infant. It is preceded by a violation of the laws of harmony of nature, and happens only when the latter seeking to restore its disturbed equilibrium, violently throws back into earth-life the astral monad which had been tossed out of the circle of necessity by crime or accident. Thus in cases of abortion, of infants dying before a certain age, and of congenital and incurable idiocy, nature's original design to produce a perfect human being, has been interrupted. Therefore, while the gross matter of each of these several entities is suffered to disperse itself at death, through the vast realm of being, the immortal spirit and astral monad of the individual--the latter having been set apart to animate a frame and the former to shed its divine light on the corporeal organization--must try a second time to carry out th= e purpose of the creative intelligence. (Isis I, 351.)=20 Here the "astral monad" or body of the deceased personality--say of John or Thomas--is meant. It is that which, in the teachings of the Esoteric philosophy of Hinduism, is known under its name of bhoot; in the Greek philosophy is called the simulacrum or umbra, and in all other philosophies worthy of the name is said, as taught in the former, to disappear after a certain period more or less prolonged in Kama-loka--the Limbus of the Roman Catholics, or Hades of the Greeks. 3 It is "a violation of the laws of harmony of nature," though it be so decreed by those of Karma--every time that the astral monad, or the simulacrum of the personality--of John or Thomas--instead of running down to the end of its natural period of time in a body--finds itself (a) violently thrown out of it by whether early death or accident; or (b) is compelled in consequence of its unfinished task to re-appear (i.e., the same astral body wedded to the same immortal monad) on earth again, in order to complete the unfinished task. Thus "it must try a second time to carry out the purpose of creative intelligence" or law.=20 If reason has been so far developed as to become active and discriminative there is no 4 (immediate) reincarnation on the earth, for the three parts o= f the triune man have been united together, and he is capable of running the race. But when the new being has not passed beyond the condition of Monad, or when, as in the idiot, the trinity has not been completed on earth and therefore cannot be so after death, the immortal spark which illuminates it has to re-enter on the earthly plane as it was frustrated in its first attempt.=20 Otherwise, the mortal or astral, and the immortal or divine souls, could no= t progress in unison and pass onward to the sphere above 5 (Devachan). Spirit follows a line parallel with that of matter; and the spiritual evolution goes hand in hand with the physical.=20 The Occult Doctrine teaches that:=20 (1) There is no immediate reincarnation on Earth for the Monad, as falsely taught by the Reincarnationist Spiritists; nor is there any second incarnation at all for the "personal" or false Ego--the perisprit--save the exceptional cases mentioned. But that (a) there are rebirths, or periodical reincarnations for the immortal Ego--("Ego" during the cycle of re-births, and non-Ego, in Nirvana or Moksha when it becomes impersonal and absolute); for that Ego is the root of every new incarnation, the string on which are threaded, one after the other, the false personalities or illusive bodies called men, in which the Monad-Ego incarnates itself during the cycle of births; and (b) that such reincarnations take place not before 1,500, 2,000 and even 3,000 years of Devachanic life. =20 (2) That Manas--the seat of Jiv, that spark which runs the round of the cycle of birth and rebirths with the Monad from the beginning to the end of a Manvantara--is the real Ego. That (a) the Jiv follows the divine monad that gives it spiritual life and immortality into Devachan--that therefore, it can neither be reborn before its appointed period, nor reappear on Earth visibly or invisibly in the interim; and (b) that, unless the fruition, the spiritual aroma of the Manas, or all these highest aspirations and spiritua= l qualities and attributes that constitute the higher SELF of man become united to its monad, the latter becomes as Non existent; since it is in ess= e "impersonal" and per se Ego-less, so to say, and gets its spiritual colouring or flavour of Ego-tism only from each Manas during incarnation an= d after it is disembodied, and separated from all its lower principles.=20 (3) That the remaining four principles, or rather the 2=BD--as they are composed of the terrestrial portion of Manas, of its vehicle Kama-Rupa and Lingha Sarira--the body dissolving immediately, and prana or the life principle along with it--that these principles having belonged to the false personality are unfit for Devachan. The latter is the state of Bliss, the reward for all the undeserved miseries of life, 6 and that which prompted man to sin, namely his terrestrial passionate nature, can have no room in it.=20 Therefore the reincarnating * principles are left behind in Kama-loka, firstly as a material residue, then later on as a reflection on the mirror of Astral light. Endowed with illusive action, to the day when having gradually faded out they disappear, what is it but the Greek Eidolon and th= e simulacrum of the Greek and Latin poets and classics?=20 What reward or punishment can there be in that sphere of disembodied human entities for a f=9Ctus or a human embryo which had not even time to breathe= on this earth, still less an opportunity to exercise the divine faculties of its spirit? Or, for an irresponsible infant, whose senseless monad remainin= g dormant within the astral and physical casket, could as little prevent him from burning himself as any other person to death? Or again for one idiotic from birth, the number of whose cerebral circumvolutions is only from twent= y to thirty per cent of those of sane persons, and who therefore is irresponsible for either his disposition, acts, or for the imperfections of his vagrant, half developed intellect. (Isis I, 352.)=20 These are, then, the "exceptions" spoken of in Isis, and the doctrine is maintained now as it was then. Moreover, there is no "discrepancy" but only incompleteness--hence, misconceptions arising from later teachings. Then again, there are several important mistakes in Isis which, as the plates of the work had been stereotyped, were not corrected in subsequent editions.=20 One of such is on page 346, and another in connection with it and as a sequence on page 347.=20 The discrepancy between the first portion of the statement and the last, ought to have suggested the idea of an evident mistake. It is addressed to the spiritists, reincarnationists who take the more than ambiguous words of Apuleius as a passage that corroborates their claims for their "spirits" an= d reincarnation. Let the reader judge 7 whether Apuleius does not justify rather our assertions. We are charged with denying reincarnation and this i= s what we said there and then in Isis!=20 The philosophy teaches that nature never leaves her work unfinished; if baffled at the first attempt, she tries again. When she evolves a human embryo the intention is that a man shall be perfected--physically, intellectually, and spiritually. His body is to grow, mature, wear out, and die; his mind unfold, ripen, and be harmoniously balanced; his divine spiri= t illuminate and blend easily with the inner man. No human being completes it= s grand cycle, or the "circle of necessity," until all these are accomplished= . As the laggards in a race struggle and plod in their first quarter while th= e victor darts past the goal, so, in the race of immortality, some souls outspeed all the rest and reach the end, while their myriad competitors are toiling under the load of matter, close to the starting point. Some unfortunates fall out entirely and lose all chance of the prize; some retrace their steps and begin again.=20 Clear enough this, one should say. Nature baffled tries again. No one can pass out of this world (our earth) without becoming perfected "physically, morally, and spiritually."=20 How can this be done, unless there is a series of rebirths required for the necessary perfection in each department--to evolute in the "circle of necessity," can surely never be found in one human life? and yet this sentence is followed without any break by the following parenthetical statement: "This is what the Hindu dreads above all things--transmigration and reincarnation; only on other and inferior planets, never on this one!!!= " The last "sentence" is a fatal mistake and one to which the writer pleads "not guilty." It is evidently the blunder of some "reader" who had no idea of Hindu philosophy and who was led into a subsequent mistake on the next page, wherein the unfortunate word "planet" is put for cycle. Isis was hardly, if ever, looked into after its publication by its writer, who had other work to do; otherwise there would have been an apology and a page pointing to the errata and the sentence made to run: "The Hindu dreads transmigration in other inferior forms, on this planet."=20 This would have dove-tailed with the preceding sentence, and would show a fact, as the Hindu exoteric views allow him to believe and fear the possibility of reincarnation--human and animal in turn by jumps, from man t= o beast and even a plant--and vice versa; whereas esoteric philosophy teaches that nature never proceeding backward in her evolutionary progress, once that man has evoluted from every kind of lower forms--the mineral, vegetable, and animal kingdoms--into the human form, he can never become an animal except morally, hence--metaphorically. Human incarnation is a cyclic necessity, and law; and no Hindu dreads it--however much he may deplore the necessity. And this law and the periodical recurrence of man's rebirth is shown on the same page (346) and in the same unbroken paragraph, where it i= s closed by saying that:=20 But there is a way to avoid it. Buddha taught it in his doctrine of poverty= , restriction of the senses, perfect indifference to the objects of this earthly vale of tears, freedom from passion, and frequent intercommunicatio= n with the Atma--soul-contemplation. The cause of reincarnation 8 is ignoranc= e of our senses, and the idea that there is any reality in the world, anythin= g except abstract existence. From the organs of sense comes the "hallucination" we call contact; "from contact, desire; from desire, sensation (which also is a deception of our body); from sensation, the cleaving to existing bodies from this cleaving, reproduction; and from reproduction, disease, decay and death." =20 This ought to settle the question and show there must have been some carelessly unnoticed mistake, and if this is not sufficient, there is something else to demonstrate it, for it is further on:=20 Thus, like the revolutions of a wheel, there is a regular succession of death and birth, the moral cause of which is the cleaving to existing objects, while the instrumental cause is Karma (the power which controls th= e universe, prompting it to activity), merit and demerit. It is therefore the greatest desire of all beings who would be released from the sorrows of successive birth, to seek the destruction of the moral cause, the cleaving to existing objects, or evil desire.=20 They in whom evil desire is entirely destroyed are called Arhats. Freedom from evil desire insures the possession of a miraculous power. At his death the Arhat is never reincarnated; he invariably attains nirvana--a word, by the by, falsely interpreted by the Christian scholar and skeptical commentators. Nirvana is the world of cause, in which all deceptive effects or delusions of our senses disappear. Nirvana is the highest attainable sphere. The pitris (the pre-Adamic spirits) are considered as reincarnated by the Buddhistic philosopher, though in a degree far superior to that of the man of earth. Do they not die in their turn? Do not their astral bodies suffer and rejoice, and feel the same curse of illusionary feelings as when embodied? =20 And just after this we are again made to say of Buddha and his: Doctrine of "Merit and Demerit," or Karma:=20 But this former life believed in by the Buddhists, is not a life on this planet for, more than any other people, the Buddhistical philosopher appreciated the great doctrine of cycles.=20 Correct "life on this planet" by "life in the same cycle," and you will hav= e the correct reading: for what would have appreciation of "the great doctrin= e of cycles" to do with Buddha's philosophy, had the great sage believed but in one short life on this Earth and in the same cycle. But to return to the real theory of reincarnation as in the esoteric teaching and its unlucky rendering in Isis.=20 Thus, what was really meant therein, was that, the principle which does not reincarnate--save the exceptions pointed out--is the false personality, the illusive human Entity defined and individualized during this short life of ours, under some specific form and name; but that which does and has to reincarnate nolens volens under the unflinching, stern rule of Karmic law--is the real EGO. This confusing of the real immortal Ego in man, with the false and ephemeral personalities it inhabits during its Manvantaric progress, lies at the root of every such misunderstanding. Now what is the one, and what is the other? The first group is--=20 1. The immortal Spirit--sexless, formless (arupa), an emanation from the On= e universal BREATH.=20 2. Its Vehicle--the divine Soul--called the "Immortal Ego," the "Divine monad," etc., etc., which by accretions from Manas in which burns the ever existing Jiv--the undying spark--adds to itself at the close of each incarnation the essence of that individuality that was, the aroma of the culled flower that is no more.=20 What is the false personality? It is that bundle of desires, aspirations, affection and hatred, in short of action, manifested by a human being on this earth during one incarnation and under the form of one personality. 9 Certainly it is not all this, which as a fact for us, the deluded, material= , and materially thinking lot--is Mr. So and So, or Mrs. somebody else--that remains immortal, or is ever reborn.=20 All that bundle of Egotism, that apparent and evanescent "I" disappears after death, as the costume of the part he played disappears from the actor's body, after he leaves the theatre and goes to bed. That actor re-becomes at once the same "John Smith" or Gray, he was from his birth and is no longer the Othello or Hamlet that he had represented for a few hours. Nothing remains now of that "bundle" to go to the next incarnation, except the seed for future Karma that Manas may have united to its immortal group, to form with it--the disembodied Higher Self in "Devachan." As to the four lower principles, that which becomes of them is found in most classics, fro= m which we mean to quote at length for our defense. The doctrine of the perisprit, the "false personality," or the remains of the deceased under their astral form--fading out to disappear in time, is terribly distasteful to the spiritualists, who insist upon confusing the temporary with the immortal EGO.=20 Unfortunately for them and happily for us, it is not the modern Occultists who have invented the doctrine. They are on their defense. And they prove what they say, i.e., that no "personality" has ever yet been "reincarnated" "on the same planet" (our earth, this once there is no mistake) save in the three exceptional cases above cited. Adding to these a fourth case, which i= s the deliberate, conscious act of adeptship; and that such an astral body belongs neither to the body nor the soul still less to the immortal spirit of man, the following is brought forward and proofs cited.=20 Before one brings out on the strength of undeniable manifestations, theorie= s as to what produces them and claims at once on prima facie evidence that it is the spirits of the departed mortals that revisit us, it behooves one to first study what antiquity has declared upon the subject.=20 Ghosts and apparitions, materialized and semi-material "SPIRITS" have not originated with Allan Kardec, nor at Rochester. If those beings whose invariable habit it is to give themselves out for souls and the phantoms of the dead, choose to do so and succeed, it is only because the cautious philosophy of old is now replaced by an a priori conceit, and unproven assumptions. The first question is to be settled--"Have spirits any kind of substance to clothe themselves with?"=20 Answer: That which is now called perisprit in France, and a "materialized Form" in England and America, was called in days of old peri-psyche, and peri-nous, hence was well known to the old Greeks. Have they a body whether gaseous, fluidic, etherial, material or semi-material? No; we say this on the authority of the occult teachings the world over.=20 For with the Hindus ATMA or spirit is Arupa, bodiless, and with the Greeks also. Even in the Roman Catholic Church the angels of Light as those of Darkness are absolutely incorporeal: "meri spiritus, omnes corporis expertes," and in the words of The Secret Doctrine, primordial.=20 Emanations of the undifferentiated Principle, the Dhyan Chohans of the ONE (First) category or pure Spiritual Essence, are formed of the Spirit of the one Element; the second category, of the second Emanation of the Soul of th= e Elements; the third have a "mind body" to which they are not subject, but that they can assume and govern as a body, subject to them, pliant to their will in form and substance. Parting from this (third) category, they (the spirits, angels, Devas or Dhyan Chohans) have BODIES, the first rupa group of which is composed of one element Ether; the second, of two--ether and fire; the third, of three--Ether, fire and water; the fourth, of four--Ether, air, fire and water. Then comes man, who, besides the four elements, has the fifth that predominates in him--Earth: therefore he suffers. Of the Angels, as said by St. Augustine and Peter Lombard, "their bodies are made to act, not to suffer. It is earth and water, humor et humus, that gives an aptitude for suffering and passivity, ad patientiam, and Ether and Fire for action." The spirits or human monads, belonging to the first, or undifferentiated essence, are thus incorporeal; but their third principle (or the human Fifth--Manas) can in conjunction with its vehicle become Kama rupa and Mayavi rupa--body of desire or "illusion body.= " After death, the best, noblest, purest qualities of Manas or the human soul ascending along with the divine Monad into Devachan whence no one emerges from or returns, except at the time of reincarnation--what is that then which appears under the double mask of the spiritual Ego or soul of the departed individual?=20 The Kama rupa element with the help of elementals. For we are taught that those spiritual beings that can assume a form at will and appear, i.e., mak= e themselves objective and even tangible--are the angels alone (the Dhyan Chohans) and the nirmanakaya 10 of the adepts, whose spirits are clothed in sublime matter. The astral bodies--the remnants and dregs of a mortal being which has been disembodied, when they do appear, are not the individuals they claim to be, but only their simulachres. And such was the belief of th= e whole of antiquity, from Homer to Swedenborg; from the third race down to our own day.=20 More than one devoted spiritualist has hitherto quoted Paul as corroboratin= g his claim that spirits do and can appear. "There is a natural and there is = a spiritual body," etc., etc., (I Cor. xv: 44); but one has only to study closer the verses preceding and following the one quoted, to perceive that what St. Paul meant was quite different from the sense claimed for it. Surely there is a spiritual body, but it is not identical with the astral form contained in the "natural" man. The "spiritual" is formed only by our individuality unclothed and transformed after death; for the apostle takes care to explain in Verses 51 and 52, "Immut abimur sed non omnes." Behold, = I tell you a mystery: we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed. Thi= s corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality.=20 But this is no proof except for the Christians. Let us see what the old Egyptians and the Neo-Platonists--both "theurgists" par excellence, thought on the subject:=20 They divided man into three principal groups subdivided into principles as we do: pure immortal spirit; the "Spectral Soul" (a luminous phantom) and the gross material body. Apart from the latter, which was considered as the terrestrial shell, these groups were divided into six principles;=20 (1) Kha "vital body";=20 (2) Khaba "astral form," or shadow;=20 (3) Khou "animal soul";=20 (4) Akh "terrestrial intelligence";=20 (5) Sa "the divine soul" (or Buddhi); and=20 (6) Sah or mummy, the functions of which began after death.=20 Osiris was the highest uncreated spirit, for it was, in one sense, a generi= c name, every man becoming after his translation Osirified, i.e., absorbed into Osiris-Sun or into the glorious divine state. It was Khou, with the lower portions of Akh or Kama rupa with the addition of the dregs of Manas remaining all behind in the astral light of our atmosphere--that formed the counterparts of the terrible and so much dreaded bhoots of the Hindus (our "elementaries"). This is seen in the rendering made of the so-called "Harri= s Papyrus on magic" (Papyrus Magique, translated by Chabas) who calls them Kouey or Khou, and explains that according to the hieroglyphics they were called Khou or the "revivified dead," the "resurrected shadows." 11=20 When it was said of a person that he "had a Khou" it meant that he was possessed by a "Spirit." There were two kinds of Khous--the justified ones--who after living for a short time a second life (nam onh) faded out, disappeared; and those Khous who were condemned to wandering without rest i= n darkness after dying for a second time--mut, em, nam--and who were called the H'ou--m=E9tre ("second time dead") which did not prevent them from clinging to a vicarious life after the manner of Vampires. How dreaded they were is explained in our Appendices on Egyptian Magic and "Chinese Spirits" (Secret Doctrine).=20 They were exorcised by Egyptian priests as the evil spirit is exorcised by the Roman Catholic cur=E9; or again the Chinese houen, identical with the K= hou and the "Elementary," as also with the lares or larv=E6--a word derived fro= m the former by Festus, the grammarian; who explains that they were "the shadows of the dead who gave no rest in the house they were in either to th= e Masters or the servants." These creatures when evoked during theurgic, and especially necromantic rites, were regarded, and are so regarded still, in China--as neither the Spirit, Soul nor anything belonging to the deceased personality they represented, but simply, as his reflection--simulacrum.=20 H P B -----------------------------------------------=20 I hope this helps, Best wishes, Dallas =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: silva_cass [mailto:silva_cass@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:06 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Did Judge teach hatred ? Dear Dallas, I thought Anand's comment on Judge was rhetorical?=20=20 But I did notice in your passage Olcott's "hatred" for Judge. Regardless of who is the CEO and where the Corporation spreads,=20 surely any branch that carries the name of Theosophy should work=20 together, to harmonise the conflicts. How can Theosophy stand as=20 the beacon for Truth, when its various departments keep throwing mud=20 at each other, defence - attack, attack - defence in the name of=20 Truth. He said, she said, Isn't it time to bury the hatchet?=20=20 Nobody can change what has been said by members of the Society in=20 the past, a continual defense and recant of other's work, undermines=20 all the good work that has been done, as we would appear as=20 squabbling little children in the playground of Theosophy. There is=20 room for the Purists -those who follow HPB's teachings as the only=20 source - and for Non-Purists, those who read what others have said.=20 Even if the two are in opposition on certain points, let it be, it=20 won't send anyone to the portals of hell or set them back on the=20 path. Let the seeker find their own truth in their own time. HPB=20 admitted that there were times she made mistakes, after all she was=20 still human. And now a question for you. In Isis HPB says that a soul never re-incarnates into the same cycle=20 (and on the same planet?) In another passage she says that Devachan=20 can range from 1000-3000 years. Perhaps I am misquoting, and I am=20 certainly not challenging her authenticity, but asking for an=20 explanation of what we think really happens. As there are many=20 cases in the world of reincarnating egos returning to the same=20 village etc. Regards Cass=20=20=20=20 From zakkduffany@earthlink.net Wed Dec 29 17:50:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: zakkduffany@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 29460 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 01:50:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 01:50:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 01:50:35 -0000 Received: from [63.159.116.115] (helo=downunder) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CjpST-0005Xm-18 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:50:33 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=cMNbGunN9JgqNT3SYZ8quPb9GQ02WqCCT1+a6NAYccN3CCXXhmT9drwl27DGQqA8; Message-ID: <000a01c4ee11$f37f08a0$73749f3f@downunder> To: References: Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:50:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: 6032057824b7a799ff7034cf760bda279ef193a6bfc3dd4898394e449123999fd025c873aa048b6193fe5b2b5bb10998350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "Zakk Duffany" Reply-To: "Zakk Duffany" X-Originating-IP: 63.159.116.115 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=196035959 Cass wrote in part : > Regardless of who is the CEO and where the Corporation spreads, > surely any branch that carries the name of Theosophy should work > together, to harmonise the conflicts. How can Theosophy stand as > the beacon for Truth, when its various departments keep throwing mud > at each other, defence - attack, attack - defence in the name of > Truth. He said, she said, Isn't it time to bury the hatchet? > Nobody can change what has been said by members of the Society in > the past, a continual defense and recant of other's work, undermines > all the good work that has been done, as we would appear as > squabbling little children in the playground of Theosophy. There is > room for the Purists -those who follow HPB's teachings as the only > source - and for Non-Purists, those who read what others have said. > Even if the two are in opposition on certain points, let it be, it > won't send anyone to the portals of hell or set them back on the > path. Let the seeker find their own truth in their own time. HPB > admitted that there were times she made mistakes, after all she was > still human.< Well said. Cass wrote in part: > In Isis HPB says that a soul never re-incarnates into the same cycle > (and on the same planet?) In another passage she says that Devachan > can range from 1000-3000 years. Perhaps I am misquoting, and I am > certainly not challenging her authenticity, but asking for an > explanation of what we think really happens. As there are many > cases in the world of reincarnating egos returning to the same > village etc.< In Mahatma Letter #85-B, K.H. addresses this issue in detail. The apparent contractions that you are pointing out were sent to him and he replied to it. From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Dec 29 18:45:21 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41288 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 02:45:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 02:45:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.74) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 02:45:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 10388 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Dec 2004 02:45:21 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=oSYLqOfTnEYgFMroYndEr0W6LxMZyo8WGchhphguTJsOtlfssDcUsvYf25LDy4YTyGfvTuFwKS+iSbBeg4HbwJqAyrzY2vx3UtrAnu1zTdVE+07JjSTVK1UexanvKUcJQ9wbJrlbyKxkg4oXwmp245nLX1b4cH4oEYx+FrskSuw= ; Message-ID: <20041230024521.10386.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:45:21 PST Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:45:21 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <000a01c4ee11$f37f08a0$73749f3f@downunder> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.74 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Zakk Will get on the webpage now. Cass Zakk Duffany wrote: Cass wrote in part : > Regardless of who is the CEO and where the Corporation spreads, > surely any branch that carries the name of Theosophy should work > together, to harmonise the conflicts. How can Theosophy stand as > the beacon for Truth, when its various departments keep throwing mud > at each other, defence - attack, attack - defence in the name of > Truth. He said, she said, Isn't it time to bury the hatchet? > Nobody can change what has been said by members of the Society in > the past, a continual defense and recant of other's work, undermines > all the good work that has been done, as we would appear as > squabbling little children in the playground of Theosophy. There is > room for the Purists -those who follow HPB's teachings as the only > source - and for Non-Purists, those who read what others have said. > Even if the two are in opposition on certain points, let it be, it > won't send anyone to the portals of hell or set them back on the > path. Let the seeker find their own truth in their own time. HPB > admitted that there were times she made mistakes, after all she was > still human.< Well said. Cass wrote in part: > In Isis HPB says that a soul never re-incarnates into the same cycle > (and on the same planet?) In another passage she says that Devachan > can range from 1000-3000 years. Perhaps I am misquoting, and I am > certainly not challenging her authenticity, but asking for an > explanation of what we think really happens. As there are many > cases in the world of reincarnating egos returning to the same > village etc.< In Mahatma Letter #85-B, K.H. addresses this issue in detail. The apparent contractions that you are pointing out were sent to him and he replied to=20 it.=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! =96 Try it today!=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Dec 29 20:11:56 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 39532 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 04:11:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 04:11:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.73) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 04:11:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 58498 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Dec 2004 04:11:55 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=aiD2c667K5oplbULCpVM91BfWJeDidy7BHY8k3rvN9LEOKB/3eBhATqrPUwDebfZr9UISAZyffbdUwdAKyUPonklIjhTe2ApGJ3wPoaAU/cDfvU+fQPWa/MwyYDtnCWC07E54MS9VA12H9gB0GNMByZZduzIe6s2uOeYlajV0HQ= ; Message-ID: <20041230041155.58496.qmail@web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:11:55 PST Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:11:55 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <000a01c4ee11$f37f08a0$73749f3f@downunder> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.73 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Zakk Have looked up Mahatma Letters and HPB's letters and there is no 85B. Only 85 which doesnt refer to reincarnation to the same planet. Cass Zakk Duffany wrote: Cass wrote in part : > Regardless of who is the CEO and where the Corporation spreads, > surely any branch that carries the name of Theosophy should work > together, to harmonise the conflicts. How can Theosophy stand as > the beacon for Truth, when its various departments keep throwing mud > at each other, defence - attack, attack - defence in the name of > Truth. He said, she said, Isn't it time to bury the hatchet? > Nobody can change what has been said by members of the Society in > the past, a continual defense and recant of other's work, undermines > all the good work that has been done, as we would appear as > squabbling little children in the playground of Theosophy. There is > room for the Purists -those who follow HPB's teachings as the only > source - and for Non-Purists, those who read what others have said. > Even if the two are in opposition on certain points, let it be, it > won't send anyone to the portals of hell or set them back on the > path. Let the seeker find their own truth in their own time. HPB > admitted that there were times she made mistakes, after all she was > still human.< Well said. Cass wrote in part: > In Isis HPB says that a soul never re-incarnates into the same cycle > (and on the same planet?) In another passage she says that Devachan > can range from 1000-3000 years. Perhaps I am misquoting, and I am > certainly not challenging her authenticity, but asking for an > explanation of what we think really happens. As there are many > cases in the world of reincarnating egos returning to the same > village etc.< In Mahatma Letter #85-B, K.H. addresses this issue in detail. The apparent contractions that you are pointing out were sent to him and he replied to it. Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Dec 29 20:18:46 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70668 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 04:18:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 04:18:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90107.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.78) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 04:18:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 86077 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Dec 2004 04:18:46 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=5JcpztzGTgYy7UyBCYZ4qqXlQnZJ5YFaleIjBPZkR88h/Klkyvkwkzvm4fadNsob7jIe1b66J2w84sQChjt8t0EY+DrI+SGcSHeYc4FyvzT2gU7oHXhzCiCLw6TUxD1hGR2bywgQjX6U4BqmURk2dxSekMkaEz74MDxbaM6Eh/Y= ; Message-ID: <20041230041846.86075.qmail@web90107.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90107.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:18:46 PST Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:18:46 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <001801c4ee0e$af2559f0$0f8fb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.78 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Re: Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Daniel Thank you for the notes. They were the exact pages I was reading which bro= ught the question to my mind. Have tried to find an answer, but cannot. = =20 I also was reading from a group member about contact with HPB, how is it po= ssible when the laws state=20 That (a) the Jiv follows the divine monad that gives it spiritual life and immortality into Devachan--that therefore, it can neither be reborn before its appointed period, nor reappear on Earth visibly or invisibly in the interim; and (b) that, unless the fruition, the spiritual aroma of the Manas, or all these highest aspirations and spiritua= l qualities and attributes that constitute the higher SELF of man become united to its monad, the latter becomes as Non existent; since it is in ess= e "impersonal" and per se Ego-less, so to say, and gets its spiritual colouring or flavour of Ego-tism only from each Manas during incarnation an= d after it is disembodied, and separated from all its lower principles.=20 =20 Cass =20 =20 "W.Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: Dec 29 2004 Dear Friend: Re: A G No mud slinging is intended. But history ought to be respected. Pointing to it as evidence is not "mud-slinging." It is restitution.=20 When there is "another side" it needs to pointed to by whomsoever raises th= e question -- to be fair to all sides -- on the basis of "a level field."=20 A G made an unsubstantiated statement concerning one who was an original Founder of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY, Mr. W. Q. Judge The position of being a founder was not my point, but the real question is (1) "What did he write and teach? And (2) How did he work for THEOSOPHY in America (for example) between 1875 and 1896? Concerning REINCARNATION and ISIS UNVEILED=20 Here is what HPB wrote: -------------------------------------- 1 "ISIS UNVEILED" AND THE "THEOSOPHIST" ON REINCARNATION H. P. Blavatsky IN Light (July 8) C.C.M. quotes from the THEOSOPHIST (June 1882) a sentence which appeared in the Editor's Note at the foot of an article headed "Seeming Discrepancies." ...... Answer We hope not--for Koot Hoomi's sake. Mme. B. would become too vain and too proud, could she but dream of such an honour. But how true the remark of th= e French classic: La critique est ais=E9e, mais l'art est difficile [To criticise is easy, Art is hard.] --though we feel more inclined to hang our diminished head in sincere sorrow and exclaim: Et tu Brute!--than to quote old truisms.=20 Only, where that (even) "seeming discrepancy" is to be found between the tw= o passages--except by those who are entirely ignorant of the occult doctrine--will be certainly a mystery to every Eastern Occultist who reads the above and who studies at the same school as the reviewer of "The Perfec= t Way."=20 Nevertheless the latter is chosen as the weapon to break our head with. It is sufficient to read No. 1 of the FRAGMENTS OF OCCULT TRUTH, and ponder over the septenary constitution of man into which the triple human entity i= s divided by the occultists, to perceive that the "astral" monad is not the "Spiritual" monad and vice versa.=20 That there is no discrepancy whatsoever between the two statements, may be easily shown, and we hope will be shown, by our friend the "reviewer." The most that can be said of the passage quoted from Isis is, that it is incomplete, chaotic, vague, perhaps--clumsy, as many more passages in that work, the first literary production of a foreigner, who even now can hardly boast of her knowledge of the English language.=20 Therefore, in the face of the statement from the very correct and excellent review of "The Perfect Way"--we say again that "Reincarnation, i.e., the appearance of the same individual--or rather, of his astral monad (or the personality as claimed by the modern Reincarnationists)--twice on the same planet is not a rule in nature "and that it is an exception."=20 Let us try once more to explain our meaning. The reviewer speaks of the "Spiritual Individuality" or the Immortal Monad as it is called, i.e. the 7th and 6th Principles [ATMA & BUDDHI] in the Fragments.=20 In Isis we refer to the personality or the Finite astral monad, a compound of imponderable elements composed of the 5th and 4th principles [MANAS & KAMA]. The former as an emanation of the ONE absolute is indestructible; th= e latter as an elementary compound is finite and doomed sooner or later to destruction with the exception of the more spiritualized portions of the 5t= h principle (the Manas or mind) which are assimilated by the 6th principle [BUDDHI] when it follows the 7th [ATMA] to its "gestation state" to be reborn or not reborn, as the case may be, in the Arupa Loka (the Formless World).=20 The seven principles, forming, so to say, a triad and a Quaternary, or, as some have it a "Compound Trinity" subdivided into a triad and two duads may be better understood in the following groups of Principles :=20 And now we ask,--where is the "discrepancy" or contradiction? Whether man was good, bad, or indifferent, Group II has to become either a "shell," or to be once or several times more reincarnated under "exceptional circumstances." There is a mighty difference in our Occult doctrine between an impersonal Individuality, and an individual Personality. C.C.M. will not be reincarnated; nor will he be in his next re-birth C.C.M., but quite a new being, born of the thoughts and deeds of C.C.M.: his own creation, the chil= d and fruit of his present life, the effect of the causes he is now producing= . Shall we say then with the Spiritists that C.C.M., the man, we know, will b= e re-born again?=20 No; but that his divine Monad will be clothed thousands of times yet before the end of the Grand Cycle, in various human forms, every one of them a new personality. Like a mighty tree that clothes itself every spring with a new foliage, to see it wither and die towards autumn, so the eternal Monad prevails through the series of smaller cycles, ever the same, yet ever changing and putting on, at each birth, a new garment. The bud, that failed to open one year, will re-appear in the next; the leaf that reached its maturity and died a natural death--can never be re-born on the same tree again. While writing Isis, we were not permitted to enter into details; hence--the vague generalities. We are told to do so now--and we do as we ar= e commanded. And thus, it seems, after all, that "two and three" will "make just four," if the "three" was only mistaken for that number. And, we have heard of cases when that, which was universally regarded and denounced as something very "black"--shockingly so--suddenly re-became "white," as soon as an additional light was permitted to shine upon it. Well, the day may yet come when even the much misunderstood occultists will appear in such a light. Vaut mieux tard que jamais! [Better late than never.] Meanwhile we will wait and see whether C.C.M. will quote again from our present answer--in Light.=20 Theosophist, August, 1882=20 ----------------------------------------------------------- 2 THEORIES ABOUT REINCARNATION AND SPIRITS] H. P. Blavatsky Over and over again the abstruse and mooted question of Rebirth or Reincarnation has crept out during the first ten years of the Theosophical Society's existence. It has been alleged on prima facie evidence, that a notable discrepancy was found between statements made in Isis Unveiled, Vol= . I, 351-2, and later teachings from the same pen and under the inspiration o= f the same master. 1=20 In Isis, it was held, reincarnation is denied. An occasional return, only o= f "depraved spirits" is allowed. "Exclusive of that rare and doubtful possibility, Isis allows only three cases--abortion, very early death, and idiocy--in which reincarnation on this earth occurs." ("C.C.M." in Light, 1882.)=20 The charge was answered then and there as every one who will turn to the THEOSOPHIST of August, 1882, can see for himself. Nevertheless, the answer either failed to satisfy some readers or passed unnoticed.=20 Leaving aside the strangeness of the assertion that reincarnation--i.e., th= e serial and periodical rebirth of every individual monad from pralaya to pralaya 2 is denied in the face of the fact that the doctrine is part and parcel and one of the fundamental features of Hinduism and Buddhism, the charge amounted virtually to this: the writer of the present, a professed admirer and student of Hindu philosophy, and as professed a follower of Buddhism years before Isis was written, by rejecting reincarnation must necessarily reject KARMA likewise! For the latter is the very cornerstone o= f Esoteric philosophy and Eastern religions; it is the grand and one pillar o= n which hangs the whole philosophy of rebirths, and once the latter is denied= , the whole doctrine of Karma falls into meaningless verbiage. Nevertheless, the opponents without stopping to think of the evident "discrepancy" between charge and fact, accused a Buddhist by profession of faith of denying reincarnation hence also by implication--Karma. Adverse to wrangling with one who was a friend, and undesirous at the time to enter upon a defence of details and internal evidence--a loss of time indeed--the writer answered merely with a few sentences. But it now becomes necessary t= o well define the doctrine. Other critics have taken the same line, and by misunderstanding the passages to that effect in Isis they have reached the same rather extraordinary conclusions.=20 To put an end to such useless controversies, it is proposed to explain the doctrine more clearly.=20 Although, in view of the later more minute renderings of the esoteric doctrines, it is quite immaterial what may have been written in Isis--an encyclopedia of occult subjects in which each of these is hardly sketched--let it be known at once, that the writer maintains the correctnes= s of every word given out upon the subject in my earlier volumes. What was said in the Theosophist of August, 1882, may now be repeated here.=20 The passage quoted from it may be, and is, most likely "incomplete, chaotic= , vague, perhaps clumsy, as are many more passages in that work, the first literary production of a foreigner who even now can hardly boast of her knowledge of the English language." Nevertheless it is quite correct so far as that collateral feature of reincarnation is therein concerned. I will now give extracts from Isis and proceed to explain every passage criticized, wherein it was said that "a few fragments of this mysterious doctrine of reincarnation as distinct from metempsychosis"--would be then presented. Sentences now explained are in italics.=20 Reincarnation i.e., the appearance of the same individual, or rather of his astral monad, twice on the same planet is not a rule in nature, it is an exception, like the teratological phenomenon of a two-headed infant. It is preceded by a violation of the laws of harmony of nature, and happens only when the latter seeking to restore its disturbed equilibrium, violently throws back into earth-life the astral monad which had been tossed out of the circle of necessity by crime or accident. Thus in cases of abortion, of infants dying before a certain age, and of congenital and incurable idiocy, nature's original design to produce a perfect human being, has been interrupted. Therefore, while the gross matter of each of these several entities is suffered to disperse itself at death, through the vast realm of being, the immortal spirit and astral monad of the individual--the latter having been set apart to animate a frame and the former to shed its divine light on the corporeal organization--must try a second time to carry out th= e purpose of the creative intelligence. (Isis I, 351.)=20 Here the "astral monad" or body of the deceased personality--say of John or Thomas--is meant. It is that which, in the teachings of the Esoteric philosophy of Hinduism, is known under its name of bhoot; in the Greek philosophy is called the simulacrum or umbra, and in all other philosophies worthy of the name is said, as taught in the former, to disappear after a certain period more or less prolonged in Kama-loka--the Limbus of the Roman Catholics, or Hades of the Greeks. 3 It is "a violation of the laws of harmony of nature," though it be so decreed by those of Karma--every time that the astral monad, or the simulacrum of the personality--of John or Thomas--instead of running down to the end of its natural period of time in a body--finds itself (a) violently thrown out of it by whether early death or accident; or (b) is compelled in consequence of its unfinished task to re-appear (i.e., the same astral body wedded to the same immortal monad) on earth again, in order to complete the unfinished task. Thus "it must try a second time to carry out the purpose of creative intelligence" or law.=20 If reason has been so far developed as to become active and discriminative there is no 4 (immediate) reincarnation on the earth, for the three parts o= f the triune man have been united together, and he is capable of running the race. But when the new being has not passed beyond the condition of Monad, or when, as in the idiot, the trinity has not been completed on earth and therefore cannot be so after death, the immortal spark which illuminates it has to re-enter on the earthly plane as it was frustrated in its first attempt.=20 Otherwise, the mortal or astral, and the immortal or divine souls, could no= t progress in unison and pass onward to the sphere above 5 (Devachan). Spirit follows a line parallel with that of matter; and the spiritual evolution goes hand in hand with the physical.=20 The Occult Doctrine teaches that:=20 (1) There is no immediate reincarnation on Earth for the Monad, as falsely taught by the Reincarnationist Spiritists; nor is there any second incarnation at all for the "personal" or false Ego--the perisprit--save the exceptional cases mentioned. But that (a) there are rebirths, or periodical reincarnations for the immortal Ego--("Ego" during the cycle of re-births, and non-Ego, in Nirvana or Moksha when it becomes impersonal and absolute); for that Ego is the root of every new incarnation, the string on which are threaded, one after the other, the false personalities or illusive bodies called men, in which the Monad-Ego incarnates itself during the cycle of births; and (b) that such reincarnations take place not before 1,500, 2,000 and even 3,000 years of Devachanic life. (2) That Manas--the seat of Jiv, that spark which runs the round of the cycle of birth and rebirths with the Monad from the beginning to the end of a Manvantara--is the real Ego. That (a) the Jiv follows the divine monad that gives it spiritual life and immortality into Devachan--that therefore, it can neither be reborn before its appointed period, nor reappear on Earth visibly or invisibly in the interim; and (b) that, unless the fruition, the spiritual aroma of the Manas, or all these highest aspirations and spiritua= l qualities and attributes that constitute the higher SELF of man become united to its monad, the latter becomes as Non existent; since it is in ess= e "impersonal" and per se Ego-less, so to say, and gets its spiritual colouring or flavour of Ego-tism only from each Manas during incarnation an= d after it is disembodied, and separated from all its lower principles.=20 (3) That the remaining four principles, or rather the 2=BD--as they are composed of the terrestrial portion of Manas, of its vehicle Kama-Rupa and Lingha Sarira--the body dissolving immediately, and prana or the life principle along with it--that these principles having belonged to the false personality are unfit for Devachan. The latter is the state of Bliss, the reward for all the undeserved miseries of life, 6 and that which prompted man to sin, namely his terrestrial passionate nature, can have no room in it.=20 Therefore the reincarnating * principles are left behind in Kama-loka, firstly as a material residue, then later on as a reflection on the mirror of Astral light. Endowed with illusive action, to the day when having gradually faded out they disappear, what is it but the Greek Eidolon and th= e simulacrum of the Greek and Latin poets and classics?=20 What reward or punishment can there be in that sphere of disembodied human entities for a f=9Ctus or a human embryo which had not even time to breathe= on this earth, still less an opportunity to exercise the divine faculties of its spirit? Or, for an irresponsible infant, whose senseless monad remainin= g dormant within the astral and physical casket, could as little prevent him from burning himself as any other person to death? Or again for one idiotic from birth, the number of whose cerebral circumvolutions is only from twent= y to thirty per cent of those of sane persons, and who therefore is irresponsible for either his disposition, acts, or for the imperfections of his vagrant, half developed intellect. (Isis I, 352.)=20 These are, then, the "exceptions" spoken of in Isis, and the doctrine is maintained now as it was then. Moreover, there is no "discrepancy" but only incompleteness--hence, misconceptions arising from later teachings. Then again, there are several important mistakes in Isis which, as the plates of the work had been stereotyped, were not corrected in subsequent editions.=20 One of such is on page 346, and another in connection with it and as a sequence on page 347.=20 The discrepancy between the first portion of the statement and the last, ought to have suggested the idea of an evident mistake. It is addressed to the spiritists, reincarnationists who take the more than ambiguous words of Apuleius as a passage that corroborates their claims for their "spirits" an= d reincarnation. Let the reader judge 7 whether Apuleius does not justify rather our assertions. We are charged with denying reincarnation and this i= s what we said there and then in Isis!=20 The philosophy teaches that nature never leaves her work unfinished; if baffled at the first attempt, she tries again. When she evolves a human embryo the intention is that a man shall be perfected--physically, intellectually, and spiritually. His body is to grow, mature, wear out, and die; his mind unfold, ripen, and be harmoniously balanced; his divine spiri= t illuminate and blend easily with the inner man. No human being completes it= s grand cycle, or the "circle of necessity," until all these are accomplished= . As the laggards in a race struggle and plod in their first quarter while th= e victor darts past the goal, so, in the race of immortality, some souls outspeed all the rest and reach the end, while their myriad competitors are toiling under the load of matter, close to the starting point. Some unfortunates fall out entirely and lose all chance of the prize; some retrace their steps and begin again.=20 Clear enough this, one should say. Nature baffled tries again. No one can pass out of this world (our earth) without becoming perfected "physically, morally, and spiritually."=20 How can this be done, unless there is a series of rebirths required for the necessary perfection in each department--to evolute in the "circle of necessity," can surely never be found in one human life? and yet this sentence is followed without any break by the following parenthetical statement: "This is what the Hindu dreads above all things--transmigration and reincarnation; only on other and inferior planets, never on this one!!!= " The last "sentence" is a fatal mistake and one to which the writer pleads "not guilty." It is evidently the blunder of some "reader" who had no idea of Hindu philosophy and who was led into a subsequent mistake on the next page, wherein the unfortunate word "planet" is put for cycle. Isis was hardly, if ever, looked into after its publication by its writer, who had other work to do; otherwise there would have been an apology and a page pointing to the errata and the sentence made to run: "The Hindu dreads transmigration in other inferior forms, on this planet."=20 This would have dove-tailed with the preceding sentence, and would show a fact, as the Hindu exoteric views allow him to believe and fear the possibility of reincarnation--human and animal in turn by jumps, from man t= o beast and even a plant--and vice versa; whereas esoteric philosophy teaches that nature never proceeding backward in her evolutionary progress, once that man has evoluted from every kind of lower forms--the mineral, vegetable, and animal kingdoms--into the human form, he can never become an animal except morally, hence--metaphorically. Human incarnation is a cyclic necessity, and law; and no Hindu dreads it--however much he may deplore the necessity. And this law and the periodical recurrence of man's rebirth is shown on the same page (346) and in the same unbroken paragraph, where it i= s closed by saying that:=20 But there is a way to avoid it. Buddha taught it in his doctrine of poverty= , restriction of the senses, perfect indifference to the objects of this earthly vale of tears, freedom from passion, and frequent intercommunicatio= n with the Atma--soul-contemplation. The cause of reincarnation 8 is ignoranc= e of our senses, and the idea that there is any reality in the world, anythin= g =3D=3D=3D message truncated =3D=3D=3D =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Dec 29 21:05:30 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 36304 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 05:05:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 05:05:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m17.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.207) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 05:05:29 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 6.77.3bd20eb1 (3972); Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:02:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <77.3bd20eb1.2f04e5d9@aol.com> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:02:17 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.138.207 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: These are tooooooooo good! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 I found these in my mailbox today. They are tooooo good not to pass on and= =20 enlighten us up a bit. :-) Leonardo.=20 10. A vulture boards an airplane, carrying two dead raccoons. The stewardes= s=20 looks at him and says, "I'm sorry, sir, only one carrion allowed per=20 passenger." 9. Two fish swim into a concrete wall. The one turns to the other and says,= =20 "Dam!" 8. Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, so they lit a fire in their= =20 craft. Unsurprisingly it sank, proving once again that you can't have your = kayak=20 and heat it too. 7. Two hydrogen atoms meet. One says "I've lost my electron." The other say= s=20 "Are you sure?" The first replies "Yes, I'm positive." 6. Did you hear about the Buddhist who refused Novocain during a root canal= ?=20 His goal: transcend dental medication. 5. A group of chess enthusiasts checked into a hotel and were standing in t= he=20 lobby discussing their recent tournament victories. After about an hour, th= e=20 manager came out of the office and asked them to disperse. "But why?" they= =20 asked, as they moved off. "Because", he said, "I can't stand chess-nuts boa= sting=20 in an open foyer." 4. A woman has twins and gives them up for adoption. One of them goes to a= =20 family in Egypt and is named "Ahmal." The other goes to a family in Spain; = they=20 name him "Juan." Years later, Juan sends a picture of himself to his birth= =20 mother. Upon receiving the picture, she tells her husband that she wishes s= he=20 also had a picture of Ahmal. Her husband responds, "They're twins! If you'v= e seen=20 Juan, you've seen Ahmal." 3. These friars were behind on their belfry payments, so they opened up a=20 small florist shop to raise funds. Since everyone liked to buy flowers from= the=20 men of God, a rival florist across town thought the competition was unfair.= He=20 asked the good fathers to close down, but they would not. He went back and= =20 begged the friars to close. They ignored him. So, the rival florist hired Hugh MacTaggart, the roughest and most vicious thug in= =20 town to "persuade" them to close. Hugh beat up the friars and trashed their= =20 store, saying he'd be back if they didn't close up shop. Terrified, they d= id so,=20 thereby proving that only Hugh can prevent florist friars. 2. Mahatma Gandhi, as you know, walked barefoot most of the time, which=20 produced an impressive set of calluses on his feet. He also ate very little= , which=20 made him rather frail and with his odd diet, he suffered from bad breath. T= his=20 made him =E2=80=A6 A super-calloused fragile mystic hexed by halitosis. 1. And finally, there was the person who sent ten different puns to his=20 friends, with the hope that at least one of the puns would make them laugh= . No pun=20 in ten did. From zakkduffany@earthlink.net Wed Dec 29 21:32:01 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: zakkduffany@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70181 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 05:32:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 05:32:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 05:32:00 -0000 Received: from [63.159.124.77] (helo=downunder) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cjsul-0002Vg-Iz for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:32:00 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=gvmRkNqjAc/Uln6n8f/zKUyiR8Adlqmw0EVWFAz46ybx5Ib5jikr/OrdNKk8b6mE; Message-ID: <000a01c4ee30$e33f16a0$4d7c9f3f@downunder> To: References: <20041230041155.58496.qmail@web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:31:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: 6032057824b7a799ff7034cf760bda279ef193a6bfc3dd48c1910dbad806703d5512eadbb388c2232601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "Zakk Duffany" Reply-To: "Zakk Duffany" X-Originating-IP: 63.159.124.77 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=196035959 Cass, In Collected Writings Volume X (December 1888), look at The Dirge For The Dead. It will explain the usage of the words planet and cycle in regards to reincarnation as it was stated in Isis Unveiled. Misconceptions arose due to the wording that was utilized. It may clear up some questions. In referencing ML 85-B, it was not from an internet site but a from a CD on HPB material. I do not know if they correlate the same. > Dear Zakk > Have looked up Mahatma Letters and HPB's letters and there is no 85B. >Only 85 which doesnt refer to reincarnation to the same planet.< Cass From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Dec 29 21:40:04 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66897 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 05:40:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 05:40:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.77) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 05:40:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 56641 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Dec 2004 05:40:04 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=mIC4fbtXYEoMogTgcTsrh8hfoIyR1qxy3Q80OBNo/0IljuGLZZBVAJxDrgHm0fcopD4SXDJpH3j2sbuzOZGseHyKgCfiovDE+jl+BLbVWlmGdsdaxmbjXh+jcrlAXyI6XdcmcLUj9e8QCQETPlERFW9cenrKFi14sdOutXKvJ4s= ; Message-ID: <20041230054004.56639.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:40:04 PST Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:40:04 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <000a01c4ee30$e33f16a0$4d7c9f3f@downunder> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.77 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Zakk Duffany wrote: Cass, In Collected Writings Volume X (December 1888), look at The Dirge For The Dead. It will explain the usage of the words planet and cycle in regards to reincarnation as it was stated in Isis Unveiled. Misconceptions arose due to the wording that was utilized. It may clear up some questions. In referencing ML 85-B, it was not from an internet site but a from a CD on HPB material. I do not know if they correlate the same. > Dear Zakk > Have looked up Mahatma Letters and HPB's letters and there is no 85B. >Only 85 which doesnt refer to reincarnation to the same planet.< Cass Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Dec 29 21:46:30 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 55589 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 05:46:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 05:46:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.44) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 05:46:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Dec 2004 05:46:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.163] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Dec 2004 05:46:27 -0000 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 05:46:25 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 454 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.44 From: "silva_cass" X-Originating-IP: 211.28.163.14 Subject: WHO'S KEEPING THE LID ON TOM? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Have just been watching a program on TV which said that the Gospel of St Thomas contradicts the Gospels of MMLJ. It's authenticity they are saying is within 30 years of Christ's teachings. It is done in parable form and states that Jesus was a Master and not a Messiah, he did not raise Lazarus from the dead, nor did Jesus resurrect himself. Isn't it ironic that this Gospel should come from doubting Thomas??? Anyone no where I can read it? Cass From samblo@cs.com Wed Dec 29 22:03:13 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 9581 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 06:03:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 06:03:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 06:03:12 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.d7.1ce0c0a4 (3699) for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 01:02:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 01:02:56 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.37 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World WHO'S KEEPING THE LID ON TOM? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Cass, The Gospel of Thomas in several translations can be read here: The Gnosis Archive http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm Didymus also can be translated as "Twin" John From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Dec 29 22:52:26 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74097 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 06:52:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 06:52:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d20.mx.aol.com) (205.188.139.136) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 06:52:26 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.dd.1cdb1520 (3972) for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 01:52:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 01:52:20 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.139.136 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World How fractal evolution works - part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Dear Cass, I wouldn't worry about it. When we shuck off this body and all its inhibitive and noise making senses, we will hear the "Voice of the Silence" of the thinker who thinks about us, and we can ask it anything we wish to... And, get a straight answer directly from the horses mouth. We also won't be lonely, since we'll be in the company of everyone we ever knew abd loved in our heart. Could they be in any other mind's thoughts than we are in and always will be? Besides, we will have already worked through our memory of this life and its karmic lessons the moment we shuffle off through the gate, and have plenty of time to ruminate about what we have to do in the next life to mediate the karma we left behind in this one. What more verification of our own existence than that do we need? >From a scientific point of view, how can we be less than the absolute zero-point and its surrounding infinite abstract motion or spinergy -- that must always carry and retain in its patterns of vibrations the entire holistic memory of all the thoughts and actions of whatever was, is, and will be? So, how can our individual existence and its experiences ever be lost? When that pre-thought memory awakens, won't every individual ray of consciousness emanating from it go back to wherever they left off during the last awakening -- to continue on from there? Could there be any other way, for any being that was Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent, to carry on with the game of life? If not, then how could it and everything in it's memory, and later, thoughts, not exist forever -- even if only in its mind? So, what's there to fret about? Leon In a message dated 12/28/04 9:02:09 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: >Dear Leon > >Another question, > >It seems to me that we, like IT, are in manifestation to "know that we >know ourselves". When we die and are in a purely subjective state we cannot >verify our own existence but only know that subjective state of all knowing >without verification (when we are dead). I am not looking forward to that, >a little centre of consciousness, ruminating on past lives and ,making >vows to "do things differently, next time", without being able to say to >someone, "Hey, what do you think?" > >>From a little point of consciousnessess point of view, I think it could >get pretty lonely being omniscient. > >Cass > >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > >Dear Cass, > >Since you seem to get the point, I have no wonder about where you are coming >from. You are right, the knowing flows in both directions, the manifestation >(us) must know itself while the self (it) that created the manifestation must >know its creation. That is the nature of thought thinking within itself... >And, why we know we are conscious and know that we know we are conscious. >Thus, the thinker in us is the thought of the thinker who thought us up. I hope >that clears things up a bit about where I'm coming from. :-) > >Leon > From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Dec 29 23:21:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7137 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 07:21:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 07:21:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.74) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 07:21:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 72975 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Dec 2004 07:21:33 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Wp5k6iNKNESXeV77sX/WVNFj3Gww92ZhckltAuyHIZN3isvkiN5Fy414OlfFz+rQGyRUZmEMeW0acRrpKlmA42s7P2b4MIFUfoQ+MF9Q3qvd/oXKePxcBISNvkD6jWdkNNE4SPbQg9iRenw7bIHYDdRcrXIFsGuf8rkGiCDqEZg= ; Message-ID: <20041230072133.72973.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:21:33 PST Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:21:33 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.74 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World How fractal evolution works - part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Leon Nothing to fret about when you put it like that. I bet I know what your first question will be !!! Cass ps had a quiet cackle over the jokes leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: Dear Cass, I wouldn't worry about it. When we shuck off this body and all its inhibitive and noise making senses, we will hear the "Voice of the Silence" of the thinker who thinks about us, and we can ask it anything we wish to... And, get a straight answer directly from the horses mouth. We also won't be lonely, since we'll be in the company of everyone we ever knew abd loved in our heart. Could they be in any other mind's thoughts than we are in and always will be? Besides, we will have already worked through our memory of this life and its karmic lessons the moment we shuffle off through the gate, and have plenty of time to ruminate about what we have to do in the next life to mediate the karma we left behind in this one. What more verification of our own existence than that do we need? >From a scientific point of view, how can we be less than the absolute zero-point and its surrounding infinite abstract motion or spinergy -- that must always carry and retain in its patterns of vibrations the entire holistic memory of all the thoughts and actions of whatever was, is, and will be? So, how can our individual existence and its experiences ever be lost? When that pre-thought memory awakens, won't every individual ray of consciousness emanating from it go back to wherever they left off during the last awakening -- to continue on from there? Could there be any other way, for any being that was Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent, to carry on with the game of life? If not, then how could it and everything in it's memory, and later, thoughts, not exist forever -- even if only in its mind? So, what's there to fret about? Leon In a message dated 12/28/04 9:02:09 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: >Dear Leon > >Another question, > >It seems to me that we, like IT, are in manifestation to "know that we >know ourselves". When we die and are in a purely subjective state we cannot >verify our own existence but only know that subjective state of all knowing >without verification (when we are dead). I am not looking forward to that, >a little centre of consciousness, ruminating on past lives and ,making >vows to "do things differently, next time", without being able to say to >someone, "Hey, what do you think?" > >>From a little point of consciousnessess point of view, I think it could >get pretty lonely being omniscient. > >Cass > >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > >Dear Cass, > >Since you seem to get the point, I have no wonder about where you are coming >from. You are right, the knowing flows in both directions, the manifestation >(us) must know itself while the self (it) that created the manifestation must >know its creation. That is the nature of thought thinking within itself... >And, why we know we are conscious and know that we know we are conscious. >Thus, the thinker in us is the thought of the thinker who thought us up. I hope >that clears things up a bit about where I'm coming from. :-) > >Leon > Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Dec 29 23:22:02 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 47126 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 07:22:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 07:22:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.72) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 07:22:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 47877 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Dec 2004 07:22:01 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=eFG7boJhte9furACHe+yC0Y2JrjlbqHYMRcv7//1Gt9DrBl14qra0sSAUtP582XUXZYy/odNmJL9jn7tHyA9frWNfKeiaMN/Rb/64Dj7YqoIpOa8l+7tg2l3+EcMSt1nfsgIlQNJfbzDEkJ+xCoHFbWF8LpuaNXVpg/rLbE88k0= ; Message-ID: <20041230072201.47875.qmail@web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:22:01 PST Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:22:01 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.72 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World WHO'S KEEPING THE LID ON TOM? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you samblo@cs.com wrote: Cass, The Gospel of Thomas in several translations can be read here: The Gnosis Archive http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm Didymus also can be translated as "Twin" John Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Dec 30 05:05:10 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 46637 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 13:05:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 13:05:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 13:05:09 -0000 Received: from [216.244.12.16] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cjzz7-0002aV-H2; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:05:05 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance; b=bnALkZLSgSbbc6AzKttiAZ+J0z9jGeEVZ3O5qm1NrRro4e7nNrZzKD60YHId3qeV; To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 05:04:30 -0800 Message-ID: <001501c4ee70$29e50800$100cf4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79ea62c8ceb7c264e10b86862f56431bb6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.61 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 216.244.12.16 Subject: Devachan X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 30 2004 Dear Friends: Here are some thoughts about Devachan. 1 DEVACHAN A LETTER to the editor from Holland upon this subject deserves reply, as is must give utterance to the questions of many other students. The complaint in this letter is that when one goes to Devachan much time is lost away from earth life, where otherwise unselfish work for others might be continued by instantly returning to it after death. The reason given is that Devachan is an illusion, while the so-called illusions of earthly existence are in such a sense real that they are preferable to those of Devachan. In illustration of this, the supposed case is given of a parent i= n Devachan imagining that the beloved child is also there, when, in fact, the child not yet physically dead remains on earth perhaps in misery or leading a life of vice. This is the root of the objection - the supposed illusionar= y character of Devachan as compared to earth-life. Now these feelings are always due to the thirst for life in the form which presently is most known to us, - that is, in a physical body. We cannot argue Devachan away any more than we can the necessity of incarnation upon this earth; the one is as philosophically necessary as is the other. A very easy way out of the difficulty - which arises almost wholly from our feelings - would be to calmly accept the law as it stands, being willing to take whatever may be our fate, whether that be in Devachan or in this earth-life. Our likes and dislikes can have no effect on the course of nature, but they may have an effect on ourselves which will be far from beneficial. For the dwelling upon pleasure or the constant desire to fly from "pain not yet come" will inevitably create Karmic causes which we woul= d wish to avoid. But perhaps there are some considerations on the subject of Devachan which may be of use. In the first place, I have never believed that the period given by Mr. Sinnett in Esoteric Buddhism of fifteen hundred years for the stay in that state was a fixed fact in nature. It might be fifteen minutes as well as fifteen hundred years. But it is quite likely that for the majority of those who so constantly wish for a release and for an enjoyment of heaven, the period would be more than fifteen hundred years. Indeed, the Hindu Scriptures give many special ceremonies for the attainment of heaven, or the regions of Indra, which is Devachan; and those ceremonies or practices are said to cause a stay in Indraloka "for years of infinite number." The first question, however, must be "What is the cause for passing into Devachan?" Some have said that it is good Karma or good acts that take us and keep us there, but this is a very incomplete reply. Of course, in the sense that it is happiness to go into that state, it may be called good Karma. But it does not follow that the man whose life is good, passed in constant unselfish work for others without repining, and free from desire t= o have somewhere his reward, will go to Devachan. Yet his Karma must be good; it must act on him, however, in other lives, for the earth-life is the plac= e where such Karma has its operation. But if at the same time that he is thus working for others he wishes for release or for some place or time when and where he may have rest, then, of course, he must go to Devachan for a perio= d which will be in proportion to the intensity of those desires. Again, it should not be forgotten that the soul must have some rest. Were it, before becoming bright as the diamond, hard as adamant, and strong as steel, to go on working, working through earth-life after earth-life withou= t a break between, it must at last succumb to the strain and come to nothing. Nature therefore has provided for it a place of rest -- in Devachan; and that we should thankfully accept if it falls to our lot.=20 But does Devachan suffer in the comparison made between it and this life on earth? To me it seems not. Human life is as great an illusion as any. To th= e sage Ribhu, Vishnu said it was the longest-lived reign of fancy. To say tha= t it is a terrible thing to think of a mother in Devachan enjoying its bliss while the child is suffering on earth, is to prefer one illusion over another, to hug a philosophical error to the breast. Both states are out of the true, while the Ego, who is the real witness, sees the lower personalit= y struggling with these phantoms while it, whether the body be living or its other parts be in Devachan, enjoys eternal felicity. It sits on high unmoved, immovable.=20 The great verse in the Isa-Upanishad settles this matter for me in these words: "What room is there for sorrow and what for doubt in him who knows that all spiritual beings are the same in kind, though differing in degree.= " Therefore if I believe this, I must also know that, no matter whether I and my best beloved are in Devachan or on earth, they and I must forever partak= e of the highest development attained by the greatest of sages, for, as they and I are spiritual beings, we must have communion forever on the higher planes of our being. Then, again, the fact seems to be lost sight of that each night we go into = a sort of Devachan - the dream state or sleep without dream. The loving mother, no matter how unfortunate or evil her child, must sleep, and in tha= t state she may have dreams of her loved ones around her in just the very condition of mind and body she would have them enjoy. If Devachan be objectionable, why not also rebel against our necessary sleep which acts on our physical frame to give it rest, as Devachan does upon our more ethereal parts? Lying unnoticed at the foot of this matter is the question of time. It goes to the very root of the objection, for the aversion to the stay in Devachan is based upon the conception of a period of time. This period - given or supposed as 1,500 years - is another great illusion which can be easily proved to be so. What we call time, measured by our seconds and minutes and hours, is not necessarily actual time itself. It is not the ultimate precedence and succession of moments in the abstract. For us it depends on and flows from the revolutions of our solar orb, and even with that standar= d it can be shown that we do not apprehend it correctly. We speak of seconds, but those are such as our watchmakers give us in the watch. They might be made longer or shorter. They are arrived at through a division of a diurnal solar revolution, the observation of which not necessarily mathematically accurate. If we lived on Mercury - where we must believe intelligent beings live - our conception of time would be different= . >From our childhood's experience we know that even in this life our appreciation of the passage of time rises and falls, for in early youth the 12 months from one Christmas to another seemed very, very long, while now they pass all too quickly.=20 And from watching the mental processes in dreams we know that, in the space of time taken for a bell to drop from the table to the floor, one may dream through a whole lifetime, with all the incidents of each day and hour packe= d into such a limited period. Who can tell but that in a Devachanic state of three months the person may go through experiences that seem to cover thousands of years? If so, why not say for him - since time as we know it i= s an illusion - that he was in Devachan for those thousands? Devachan, however, is not a meaningless or useless state. In it we are rested; that part of us which could not bloom under the chilling skies of earth-life bursts forth into flower and goes back with us to another life stronger and more a part of our nature than before; our strength is revived for another journey between deaths. Why shall we repine that nature kindly aids us in the interminable struggle; why thus ever keep the mind revolving about this petty personality and its good or evil fortune?=20 W.Q.J. PATH, September, 1890 ------------------------------------------------ 2 HOW IS DEVACHAN CREATED ? "...we ourselves create our Devachan...while yet on earth, and mostly durin= g the latter days and even moments of our intellectual sentient lives. That feeling which is strongest in us at that supreme hour, when as in a dream, the events of a long life to their minutest detail are marshaled in the greatest order in a few seconds in our vision, (Fn.:--That vision takes place when a person is already proclaimed dead. The brain is the last orga= n that dies.) that feeling will become the fashioner of our bliss or woe, the life-principle of our future existence...The real full remembrance of our lives will come but at the end of the minor cycle, --not before..." Theos. Articles & Notes, p. 246 WHO GOES TO DEVACHAN "The personal Ego, of course, but beatified, purified, holy. Every Ego--th= e combination of the 6th and 7th principles [ATMA-BUDDHI]--which after the period of unconscious gestation is reborn into the Devachan, is of necessit= y as innocent as a new born babe. The fact of his being reborn at all shows the preponderance of good over evil in his old personality...he brings alon= g with him but the Karma of his good deeds, words, and thoughts into this Devachan...all those who have not slipped down into the mire of unredeemabl= e sin and bestiality go to the Devachan...Meanwhile they are rewarded; receive the effects of the causes produced by them." Theos. Art. & Notes, p. 244-5 REASON FOR DEVACHANIC EXPERIENCE "The 'dream of Devachan' lasts until Karma is satisfied in that direction. In Devachan there is a gradual exhaustion of force..."The stay in D- is proportionate to the unexhausted psychic [ spiritual and of the nature of the soul ] impulses originating in earth life. Those whose attractions wer= e preponderatingly material will be sooner brought back into rebirth by the force of Tanha...In such a case the average rule has no application, since the whole effect either way is due to a balancing of forces and is the outcome of action and reaction." T. A. & N. p.249 WHAT IS CONSCIOUS IN DEVACHAN ? "As to the personal Soul--by which we mean the spark of consciousness that preserves in the Spiritual Ego the idea of the personal "I" of the last incarnation--this lasts, as a separate distinct recollection, only throughout the Devachanic period; after which time it is added to the innumerable incarnations of the Ego...Immortality is but one's unbroken consciousness; and the personal consciousness can hardly last longer than the personality itself...and such consciousness...survives only throughout Devachan, after which it is reabsorbed, first, in the individual, and then in the universal consciousness." Key 107-8 ["Manas...the Ego"] ..."It has not forgotten them [deeds in past lives] ...it knows and remembers its misdeeds as well as you remember what you hav= e done yesterday." Key 136 LENGTH OF DEVACHANIC STAY "...the term between two rebirths is said to extend from ten to 15 centuries, during which time the physical consciousness is totally and absolutely inactive, having no organs to act through..." KEY 132 BENEVOLENCE & STAY IN DEVACHAN "The reward provided by nature for men who are benevolent in a large, systematic way, and who have not focused their affections on an individual or specialty, is that if pure they pass the quicker for that thro' the Kama and Rupa lokas into the higher sphere of Tribuvana, since it is one where the formulation of abstract ideas and the consideration of general principles fill the thought of its occupant." THEOS. A. & N., p. 244=09 "In some cases, it is evident that the state of consciousness of one monad whether in Devachan or yet on earth, may blend with, as it were, and influence the ideation of another monad also in Devachan. Such will be the case if there is strong, affectionate sympathy between the two egos arisin= g from participation in the same feelings or emotions, or from similar intellectual pursuits or spiritual aspirations. Just as the thoughts of a mesmerizer standing at a distance are communicated to his subject by the emanation of a current of magnetic energy attracted readily towards the subject, the train of ideas of a Devachanee are communicated by a current o= f magnetic or electric force attracted towards another Devachanee by reason o= f the strong sympathy existing between the two monads, especially when the said ideas relate to things which are subjectively associated with the Devachanee in question." T. A. & N., p. 26 QUICK REBIRTH "Unless a man loves well, or hates well, he need not trouble himself about Devachan; he will be neither in Devachan nor Avitchi, "Nature spews the lukewarm out of her mouth" means only that she annihilates their personal Egos (not the Shells, nor yet the 6th principle) in the Kama-loka and the Devachan. This does not prevent them from being immediately reborn, and if their lives were not very, very bad, there is no reason why the eternal Monad should not find the page of that life intact in the Book of Life." T A & N, p. 246-7 "...all workers for the Lodge, no matter of what degree, are helped out of Devachan if they themselves permit it." WQJ ART I p.418 BASIS FOR DEVACHANIC "DREAM" [The force of unfinished mental work]... "an intense and purely spiritual passion for intellectual pursuit," is called "an unsatisfied yearning which must exhaust itself before the entity can move on to the purely a-rupa (formless-impersonal) condition. A provision is made for every case, and, in each case it is created by the dying man's last, uppermost desire..." [not "thought"] Theos. Art. & Notes, p. 32 REVIEW OF THE LAST LIFE LIVED "At the solemn moment of death every man, even when death is sudden, sees the whole of his past life marshaled before him, in its minutest details. For one short instant the personal becomes one with the individual and the all-knowing Ego. But that instant is enough to show him the whole chain of causes which have been at work during his life. He sees and now understand= s himself as he is, unadorned by flattery or self-deception. He reads his life, remaining as a spectator looking down into the arena he is quitting; he feels and knows the justice of all the suffering that has overtaken him.= " Key 162 "Occult Science teaches that the frame of mind in which a man dies, is of the utmost importance owing to the abnormal and psychic state in which he then is. The last thought of a dying person does much to influence his immediate future. The arrow is ready to fly from the bow; the bow-string is abreast of the ear, and the aim will decide the immediate fate of the arrow. Happy is he for whom "Om" is the bow, the Self is the arrow and Brahman--its aim!" At such a sacred moment, strong spiritual aspirations, whether natural or induced by the earnest exhortations of either one who ha= s a true conviction, or better still, of one possessed of the divine Gnosis, will protect the Soul of him who is leaving life...at death we shall be judged by our own Higher Self, and, under the conduct of the agents of the Karmic Law (the Demiurgos collectively), will have to reincarnate again int= o the prison of the Body, until the past evil Karma has been exhausted. For until the last farthing of the Karmic debt is exhausted, we can never be untied from the wheel of "Sansara."=20=20=20 -Footnote by HPB-- Lucifer, Vol. 8, p. 127-8 "That flash of memory which is traditionally supposed to show a drowning ma= n every long-forgotten scene of his mortal life--as the landscape is revealed to the traveler by intermittent flashes of lightning--is simply the sudden glimpse which the struggling soul gets into the silent galleries where his history is depicted in imperishable colors." Isis I 179 DO NOT DISTURB THE DYING=20 "No man dies insane or unconscious--as some physiologists assert. Even a madman, or one in a fit of delirium tremens will have his instant of perfec= t lucidity at the moment of death, though unable to say so to those present...speak in whispers...lest you disturb the quiet ripple of thought, and hinder the busy work of the Past casting on its reflections upon the veil of the future." M L 170=09 "That feeling which is strongest in us at that supreme hour, when as in a dream, the events of a long life to their minutest detail are marshaled in the greatest order in a few seconds in our vision, (Fn.:--That vision takes place when a person is already proclaimed dead. The brain is the last orga= n that dies.) that feeling will become the fashioner of our bliss or woe, the life-principle of our future existence...The real full remembrance of our lives will come but at the end of the minor cycle, -- not before..." T A & N, p. 246 "That particular one moment which will be most intense and uppermost in the thoughts of the dying brain at the moment of dissolution, will regulate all subsequent moments. The moment thus selected becomes the key-note of the whole harmony, around which cluster in endless variety all the aspirations and desires which in connection with that moment had ever crossed the dreamer's brain during his lifetime, without being realized on earth,--the theme modeling itself on, and taking shape from, that group of desires whic= h was most intense during life." THEOS. ART. & NOTES., p. 242 =09=09=09=09 TWO FIELDS OF EFFECTS: =09 "There are two fields of causal manifestation; the objective and the subjective. The grosser energies find their outcome in the new personality of each birth in the cycle of evoluting individuality. The moral and spiritual activities find their sphere of effects in Devachan. The dream of Devachan lasts until Karma is satisfied in that direction, until the ripple of force reaches the edge of its cyclic basin and the bein= g moves into the next area of causes."=09 THEOS. ART. & NOTES, p. 242=09 =09=09 CONTACT WITH DEVACHANEES "It is...during such a condition [ of blissful Maya ] that the souls of astral Egos of pure loving sensitives, laboring under the same delusion, [ of perpetual bliss ] think that their loved ones come down to them on earth while it is their own spirits that are raised towards those in the Devachan." THEOS. ART. & NOTES, p. 245 "Two sympathetic souls will each work out their devachanic sensations, making the other a sharer in its subjective bliss, Yet each is dissociated from the other as regards mutual intercourse; for what companionship could there be between subjective entities which are not even as material as that Ethereal body--the Mayavi Rupa ?" T. A. & N., p. 243 ADEPT'S SPIRITUAL NATURE ACCESSES DEVACHAN "...the disembodied entity being identical in nature with the higher triad of the living man, when obliterated as a result of self-evolution effected by the full development of conscious and trained will, the adept can throug= h this triad learn all that concerns the Devachanee; live for the time being his mental life, feel as he feels, and sharing thoroughly in his super-sensuous perceptions, bring back with him on earth the memory of the same, unwarped by mayavic deceptions..." T A & N p. 18 "There are two fields of causal manifestation; the objective and the subjective. The grosser energies find their outcome in the new personality of each birth in the cycle of evoluting individuality. The moral and spiritual activities find their sphere of effects in Devachan. "The dream of Devachan lasts until Karma is satisfied in that direction, until the ripple of force reaches the edge of its cyclic basin and the bein= g moves into the next area of causes." THEOS. ART. & NOTES, p. 242 =09 DEVACHAN A VARIED STATE "As many varieties of bliss on Earth there are of perception and of capability to appreciate such reward. It is an ideal paradise; in each case of the Ego's own making, and by him filled with the scenery, crowded with the incidents, and thronged with the people he would expect to find in such a sphere of compensative bliss. And it is that variety which guides the temporary personal Ego into the current which will lead him to be rebor= n in a lower or higher condition in the next world of causes. Everything is so harmoniously arranged in nature--especially in the subjective world-- that no mistake can be ever committed by the Tathagatos who guide the impulses. Devachan is a "spiritual condition" only as contrasted with our own grossly material condition...[follows examples of various instinctive and moral effects on the next incarnation] The savage in being reborn woul= d simply take a low place in the scale, by reason of his imperfect moral development; while the Karma of the other [wanton killer of animals] would be tainted with moral delinquency..." THEOS. ART. & NOTES, p. 245-6 CREATIVE ARTIST, POET, ETC IN DEVACHAN "The artist, poet, musician, and day-dreamer...when rapt in melody, composition, color arrangement, and even foolish fancy, they are in a sort of living Devachanic state wherein they often lose consciousness of time an= d sense impressions. Their stay in that condition depends...on the impulses toward it which they have amassed. If they were not subject to the body an= d its forces they might remain years in their "dream." The same laws, applie= d to the man divested of a body, will give us exactly the results for Devachan. But no one save a trained mathematical Adept could sum up the forces and give us the total number of years or minutes which might measure Devachan. On the Adepts, therefore, we have to depend for a specific time-statement, and they have declared 1000 to 1500 years to be a good general average...[gives the Cycle of Reincarnation for the average mass of units in any civilization.]" T A & N p. 250 CONTRAST IN DEVACHAN -- WISDOM "...first necessity: to know the esoteric views of the ultimate nature of Spirit, of Matter, Force and Space; the fundamental and axiomatic theorie= s as to the Reality and Unreality, Form and the Formless (rupa and a-rupa), dream and waking...the distinction between the "objective" and the "subjective"=20 in the living man's sensuous perceptions and the same as they appear [to a disembodied entity] to the psychic perceptions of a...Devachanee." T A & N p. 17-18 "...the Higher Triad, Manas, Buddhi, and Atma,--the real man, immediately g= o into [the state] of Devachan...they are the immortal part of us; they, in fat, and no other are we. This should be firmly grasped by the mind, for upon its clear understanding depends the comprehension of the entire doctrine." Ocean, p. 65 AWARENESS OF TIME AND SPACE IN DEVACHAN=20 "In Devachan there is no cognizance of time, of which the Devachanee loses all sense...The a priori ideas of space and time do not control his perceptions; for he absolutely creates and annihilates them at the same time. Physical existence has its cumulative intensity from infancy to prime, and its diminishing energy to dotage and death; so the dream-life o= f Devachan is lived correspondentially. Nature cheats no more the devachanee than she does the living physical man. Nature provides for him far more real bliss and happiness there than she does here, where all the conditions of evil and chance are against him...As in actual earth life, so there is for the Ego in Devachan the first flutter of psychic life, the attainment o= f prime, the gradual exhaustion of force passing into semi-consciousness and lethargy, total oblivion, and--not death, but birth, birth into another personality..." THEOS ART. & NOTES, p. 242-3 "There is a change of occupation, a continual change in Devachan, just as much and far more than there is in any life...with this difference, that to the Devachanee this spiritual occupation is always pleasant and fills his life with rapture. Life in Devachan is the function of the aspirations of earth life; not the indefinite prolongation of that "single instant," but its infinite developments, the various incidents and events based upon the outflowing from that one "single moment" or moments. The dreams of the objective become the realities of the subjective existence." T. A. & N. p. 243 "...Devachan is a state where the Ego enjoys and does not suffer, sufferin= g being reserved for the earth life. It is not a question of memory strictly speaking, but is a state where the causes generated on this earth which can exhaust in no other state, do so exhaust themselves, leaving the causes relating to this plane of earth life to be afterwards exhausted here, and a= s it is, like this life, a state of illusion, the Ego naturally enlarges all its conceptions of what it thought best and highest when it was alive, for such are the causes that relate to that state." Practical Occultism, p. 258-9 DREAMS: IN AND OUT OF DEVACHAN "The Devachanic condition in all its aspects is no doubt similar to a dream= y state when considered from the standpoint of our present objective consciousness when we are in our waking condition. Nevertheless it is real to the Devachanee himself as our waking state is to us... A monad in Devachan has but one state of consciousness, and the contrast between a waking state and a dreamy state is never presented to it so long as it is i= n that condition." T. A. & N., p. 24 PRINCIPLES ACTIVE & CONSCIOUSNESS IN DEVACHAN "Unfettered from the personal sensations of the manas, the devachanic consciousness would certainly have to become universal or absolute consciousness, with no past as with no future, the two merging into one eternal PRESENT--but for the trammels of the personal Ego...the ethereal atoms that act in the spiritual consciousness of the monad, during its blis= s wholly based and depending upon the degree of its connections with only th= e essence of the personal Ego." T A & N p. 20 "...the spiritual consciousness...sense pertaining to the immutable can never sleep of even be dormant per se, and is always in the "Light" of reality [ enables the occultist ] to perceive that reality in the subjectiv= e world which was hidden from it in waking hours..." T A & N, p. 21 "...the participations of the manas in the Devachanic bliss...takes away from, the reality that would fall to the lot of the monad were it altogethe= r free from its presence. Its bliss is an outcome of...the delusion or "heresy of individuality," which...together with the...chain of causes, is necessary for the monad's future birth...all this leads the occultist to regard the association of "intercourse" between two disembodied entities in the Devachan...as an illusion..." T A & N, p. 21 WHERE IS DEVACHAN LOCATED ? "...the highest state permitted to it (personal or animal soul) on earth being samadhi. It is only its essence that has followed the monad into Devachan, to serve it there as its ground-tone, or as the background agains= t which its future dream-life and development will move...That which is in Devachan is...the smell of the flower...its aroma will never die, and may b= e recalled and resurrected ages thence..." T. A. & N., p 24 DEVACHANIC REST AND RECUPERATION "Devachan...is--a blissful rest, a heavenly oasis during the laborious journey of the Monad toward a higher evolution...One has to sense intuitionally its logical necessity; to perceive in it, untaught and unguided, the outcome and perpetuation of that strictest justice absolutely consonant with the harmony of the universal law...(27) The bliss of a Devachanee is complete..." T. A. & N., p. 26-7 LEAVING DEVACHAN - A NEW PERSONALITY and KARMA "Good Karma is that kind which the Ego desires and requires; bad, that which the Ego neither desires nor requires. And in this the Ego, being guided and controlled by law, by justice, by the necessities of upward evolution, and not by fancy or selfishness or revenge or ambition, is sure to choose the earthly habitation that is most likely, out of all possible o= f selection, to give the karma for the real advantage in the end...we see tha= t the "advantages" which one would seek were he looking for the strengthening of character, the unloosing of soul force and energy, would be called by th= e selfish and personal world "disadvantages." Struggle is needed for the gaining of strength; buffeting adverse eras is for the gaining of depth; meager opportunities may be used for acquiring fortitude; poverty should breed generosity. The middle ground in all this, and not the extreme is what we speak of... the Ego has drawn about itself in a former life some tendencies which canno= t be eliminated in any other way...sometimes...a pure, powerful Ego incarnate= s in just such awful surroundings, remaining good and pure all the time, and staying there for the purpose of uplifting and helping others."=09 WQJ ART. I 138-9 "...the monad is not like a seed dropped from a tree, but its nature is ubiquitous, all-pervading, omnipresent; though in the subjective state tim= e space and locality are not factors in its experiences...there are states an= d states and degrees upon degrees in Devachan, in all of which, notwithstanding (to us) the objective isolation of the principal hero, he i= s surrounded by a host of actors in conjunction with whom he had during his last earth-life created and worked our the causes of those effects that are produced first on the field of Devachanic or Avitchian subjectivity, and then used to strengthen the karma to follow on the objective (?) plane of subsequent rebirth. Earth life is...the Prologue of the drama...mystery...that is enacted in the rupa and arupa lokas." T A & N. 30 "...the devachanic mind is capable only of the highest spiritual ideation; that neither objects of the grosser senses nor any thing provocative of displeasure could ever be apprehended by it--for otherwise, Devachan would be merging into Avitchi, and the feeling of unalloyed bliss destroyed for ever." T A & N, 31 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Best wishes, Dallas =20 From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Dec 30 05:05:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91183 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 13:05:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 13:05:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 13:05:16 -0000 Received: from [216.244.12.16] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CjzzI-0002aV-2G; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:05:14 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance; b=DL/OxHcTJWSk4SWOxKcFpLSEROldKu8YtCp3lAJeMo6cPhrkcOvJ6xNlfUy3QOb2; To: "C A S SILVA" Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 05:04:30 -0800 Message-ID: <001601c4ee70$3030aa20$100cf4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec799b295d684d1d4c278594752dffb282d1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.61 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 216.244.12.16 Subject: Isis and Reincarnation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 30 2004 Dear Friend: Here are two more articles by HPB on the subject Isis and Reincarnation ------------------------------------------------- 1 "ISIS UNVEILED" AND THE "THEOSOPHIST" ON REINCARNATION H. P. Blavatsky IN LIGHT (July 8) C.C.M. quotes from the THEOSOPHIST (June 1882) a sentence which appeared in the Editor's Note at the foot of an article headed "Seeming Discrepancies."=20 Then, turning to the review of "The Perfect Way" in the same number, he quotes at length from "an authoritative teaching of the later period," as h= e adds rather sarcastically. Then, again, a long paragraph from Isis. The three quotations and the remarks of our friend run thus:=20 "There never was, nor can there be, any radical discrepancy between the teachings in 'Isis' ('Isis Unveiled') and those of this later period, as both proceed from one and the same source--the ADEPT BROTHERS. (Editor's Note in Seeming Discrepancies.")=20 Having drawn the attention of his readers to the above assertion C.C.M. proceeds to show--as he thinks--its fallacy:=20 "To begin with, re-Incarnation--if other worlds besides this are taken into account--is the regular routine of nature. But re-Incarnation in the next higher objective world is one thing; re-Incarnation on this earth is another. Even that takes place over and over again till the highest condition of humanity, as known on this earth, is attained, but not afterwards, and here is the clue to the mystery.... But once let a man be a= s far perfected by successive re-incarnations as the present race will permit= , and then his next re-incarnation will be among the early growths of the nex= t higher world, where the earliest growths are far higher than the highest here. The ghastly mistake that the modern re-lncarnationists make is in supposing that there can be a return on this earth to lower bodily forms";--not, therefore, that man is re-incarnated as man again and again upon this earth, for that is laid down as truth in the above cited passages in the most positive and explicit form." (Review of T.P.W. in the Theosophist.)=20 And now for "Isis": [ I 351-2 ] "We will now present a few fragments of this mysterious doctrine of re-Incarnation--as distinct from metempsychosis--which we have from an authority. Re-Incarnation, i.e., the appearance of the same individual--or rather, of his astral monad--twice on the same planet is not a rule in nature; it is an exception, like the teratological phenomenon of a two-headed infant.=20 It is preceded by a violation of the laws of harmony of nature and happens only when the latter, seeking to restore its disturbed equilibrium, violently throws back into earth-life the astral monad, which has been tossed out of the circle of necessity by crime or accident. Thus in cases o= f abortion, of infants dying before a certain age, and of congenital and incurable idiocy, nature's original design to produce a perfect human being has been interrupted. Therefore, while the gross matter of each of these several entities is suffered to disperse itself at death through the vast realm of being, the immortal Spirit and astral monad of the individual--the latter having been set apart to animate a frame, and the former to shed its divine light on th= e corporeal organization--must try a second time to carry out the purpose of the creative intelligence.=20 If reason has been so far developed as to become active and discriminative, there is no re-incarnation on, this earth, for the three parts of the triun= e man have been united together, and he is capable of running the race. But when the new being has not passed beyond the condition of monad, or when, a= s in the idiot, the trinity has not been completed, the immortal spark which illuminates it has to re-enter on the earthly planet, as it was frustrated in its first attempt. . . . Further, the same occult doctrine recognizes another possibility, albeit so rare and so vague that it is really useless to mention it. Even the modern Occidental Occultists deny it, though it is universally accepted in Eastern countries." . . .=20 This is the occasional return of the terribly depraved human Spirits which have fallen to the eighth sphere--it is unnecessary to quote the passage at length. Exclusive of that rare and doubtful possibility, then "Isis"--I hav= e quoted from volume I, pp. 351-2--allows only three cases--abortion, very early death, and idiocy--in which re-Incarnation on this earth occurs.=20 I am a long-suffering student of the mysteries, more apt to accuse my own stupidity than to make "seeming discrepancies" an occasion for scoffing. Bu= t after all, two and three will not make just four; black is not white, nor, in reference to plain and definite statements, is "Yes" equivalent to "No." If there is one thing which I ardently desire to be taught, it is the truth about this same question of re-Incarnation. I hope I am not, as a dutiful Theosophist, expected to reconcile the statement of "Isis" with that of thi= s authoritative Reviewer. But there is one consolation. The accomplished authoress of "Isis" cannot have totally forgotten the teaching on this subject therein contained. She, therefore, certainly did not dictate the statements of the Reviewer. If I may conjecture that Koot Hoomi stands clos= e behind the latter, then assuredly Koot Hoomi is not, as has been maliciousl= y suggested, an alias for Madame Blavatsky.=20 "C.C.M." --------------------------------------------------------- We hope not--for Koot Hoomi's sake. Mme. B. would become too vain and too proud, could she but dream of such an honour. But how true the remark of th= e French classic: La critique est ais=E9e, mais l'art est difficile [Criticis= m is easy, Art is difficult] --though we feel more inclined to hang our diminished head in sincere sorrow and exclaim: Et tu Brute!--than to quote old truisms. Only, where that (even) "seeming discrepancy" is to be found between the two passages--except by those who are entirely ignorant of the occult doctrine--will be certainly a mystery to every Eastern Occultist who reads the above and who studies at the same school as the reviewer of "The Perfect Way."=20 Nevertheless the latter is chosen as the weapon to break our head with. It is sufficient to read No. 1 of the Fragments of Occult Truth, and ponder over the septenary constitution of man into which the triple human entity i= s divided by the occultists, to perceive that the "astral" monad is not the "Spiritual" monad and vice versa.=20 That there is no discrepancy whatsoever between the two statements, may be easily shown, and we hope will be shown, by our friend the "reviewer." The most that can be said of the passage quoted from Isis is, that it is incomplete, chaotic, vague, perhaps--clumsy, as many more passages in that work, the first literary production of a foreigner, who even now can hardly boast of her knowledge of the English language. Therefore, in the face of the statement from the very correct and excellent review of "The Perfect Way"--we say again that "Reincarnation, i.e., the appearance of the same individual--or rather, of his astral monad (or the personality as claimed b= y the modern Reincarnationists)--twice on the same planet is not a rule in nature "and that it is an exception."=20 Let us try once more to explain our meaning. The reviewer speaks of the "Spiritual Individuality" or the Immortal Monad as it is called, i.e. the 7th and 6th [ATMA & BUDDHI] Principles in the Fragments. In Isis we refer t= o the personality or the Finite astral monad, a compound of imponderable elements composed of the 5th and 4th [MANAS & KAMA] principles.=20 The former as an emanation of the ONE absolute is indestructible; the latte= r as an elementary compound is finite and doomed sooner or later to destruction with the exception of the more spiritualized portions of the 5t= h principle (the Manas or mind) which are assimilated by the 6th principle [BUDDHI] when it follows the 7th [ATMA] to its "gestation state" to be reborn or not reborn, as the case may be, in the Arupa Loka (the Formless World). The seven principles, forming, so to say, a triad and a Quaternary, or, as some have it a "Compound Trinity" subdivided into a triad and two duads may be better understood in the following groups of Principles :=20 And now we ask,--where is the "discrepancy" or contradiction? Whether man was good, bad, or indifferent, Group II has to become either a "shell," or to be once or several times more reincarnated under "exceptional circumstances."=20 There is a mighty difference in our Occult doctrine between an impersonal Individuality, and an individual Personality. C.C.M. will not be reincarnated; nor will he be in his next re-birth C.C.M., but quite a new being, born of the thoughts and deeds of C.C.M.: his own creation, the chil= d and fruit of his present life, the effect of the causes he is now producing= . Shall we say then with the Spiritists that C.C.M., the man, we know, will b= e re-born again? No; but that his divine Monad will be clothed thousands of times yet before the end of the Grand Cycle, in various human forms, every one of them a new personality.=20 Like a mighty tree that clothes itself every spring with a new foliage, to see it wither and die towards autumn, so the eternal Monad prevails through the series of smaller cycles, ever the same, yet ever changing and putting on, at each birth, a new garment. The bud, that failed to open one year, will re-appear in the next; the leaf that reached its maturity and died a natural death--can never be re-born on the same tree again. While writing Isis, we were not permitted to enter into details; hence--the vague generalities. We are told to do so now--and we do as we are commanded. =20 And thus, it seems, after all, that "two and three" will "make just four," if the "three" was only mistaken for that number. And, we have heard of cases when that, which was universally regarded and denounced as something very "black"--shockingly so--suddenly re-became "white," as soon as an additional light was permitted to shine upon it. Well, the day may yet come when even the much misunderstood occultists will appear in such a light. Vaut mieux tard que jamais! [Better late than never.] Meanwhile we will wait and see whether C.C.M. will quote again from our present answer--in Light.=20 Theosophist, August, 1882=20 ----------------------------------------------------- 2 SEEMING "DISCREPANCIES" H. P. Blavatsky TO THE EDITOR OF THE "THEOSOPHIST" I have lately been engaged in devoting a few evenings' study to your admirable article, "FRAGMENTS OF OCCULT TRUTH," which deserves far more attention than a mere casual reading. It is therein stated that the translated Ego cannot span the abyss separating its state from ours, or tha= t it cannot descend into our atmosphere and reach us; that it attracts but cannot be attracted, or, in short, that no departed SPIRIT can visit us.=20 In Vol. I., page 67, of "Isis," I find it said that many of the spirits, subjectively controlling mediums, are human disembodied spirits, that their being benevolent or wicked in quality largely depends upon the medium's private morality, that "they cannot materialise, but only project their =E6therial reflections on the atmospheric waves."=20 On page 69:=20 "Not every one can attract human spirits, who likes. One of the most powerful attractions of our departed ones is their strong affection for those whom they have left on earth. It draws them irresistibly, by degrees, into the current of the astral light vibrating between the person sympathetic to them and the universal soul."=20 On page 325:=20 "Sometimes, but rarely, the planetary spirits . . . produce them (subjectiv= e manifestations); sometimes the spirits of our translated and beloved friends, &c."=20 >From the foregoing it would appear as if both teachings were not uniform, but it may be that souls, instead of spirits, are implied, or that I have misunderstood the meaning.=20 Such difficult subjects are rather puzzling to Western students, especially to one who, like myself, is a mere tyro, though always grateful to receive knowledge from those who are in a position to impart such.=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 Yours, &c., CALEDONIAN THEOSOPHIST 9th January, 1882=20 ---------------------------- EDITOR'S NOTE.--It is to be feared that our valued Brother has both misunderstood our meaning in "Isis" and that of the "Fragments of Occult Truth." Read in their correct sense, the statements in the latter do not offer the slightest discrepancy with the passages quoted from "Isis," but both teachings are uniform.=20 Our "Caledonian" Brother believes that, because it is stated in "Isis," tha= t "many, among those who control the medium subjectively, are human disembodied spirits," and in the "Fragments," in the words of our critic, that "the Ego cannot span the abyss separating its state from ours . . . cannot descend into our atmosphere, . . . or, in short, that no departed SPIRIT can visit us"--there is a contradiction between the two teachings?=20 We answer--"None at all." We reiterate both statements, and will defend the proposition. Throughout "Isis"--although an attempt was made in the Introductory Chapter to show the great difference that exists between the terms "soul" and "spirit"--one the reliqui=9C of the personal EGO, the othe= r the pure essence of the spiritual INDIVIDUALITY--the term "spirit" had to b= e often used in the sense given to it by the Spiritualists, as well as other similar conventional terms, as, otherwise, a still greater confusion would have been caused. Therefore, the meaning of the three sentences, cited by our friend, should be thus understood:=20 On page 67 [Isis I ] wherein it is stated that many of the spirits, subjectively controlling mediums, are human disembodied spirits," &c., the word "controlling" must not be understood in the sense of a "spirit" possessing himself of the organism of a medium; nor that, in each case, it is a "spirit"; for often it is but a shell in its preliminary stage of dissolution, when most of the physical intelligence and faculties are yet fresh and have not begun to disintegrate, or fade out.=20 A "spirit," or the spiritual Ego, cannot descend to the medium, but it can attract the spirit of the latter to itself, and it can do this only during the two intervals--before and after its "gestation period." Interval the first is that period between the physical death and the merging of the spiritual Ego into that state which is known in the Arhat esoteric doctrine as "BAR-DO." We have translated this as the "gestation" period, and it last= s from a few days to several years, according to the evidence of the adepts.= =20 Interval the second, lasts so long as the merits of the old Ego entitle the being to reap the fruit of its reward in its new regenerated Ego-ship. It occurs after the gestation period is over, and the new spiritual Ego is reborn--like the fabled Ph=9Cnix from its ashes--from the old one. The locality, which the former inhabits, is called by the northern Buddhist Occultists "DEVA-CHAN," the word answering, perhaps, to Paradise or the Kingdom of Heaven of the Christian elect.=20 Having enjoyed a time of bliss, proportionate to his deserts, the new personal Ego gets re-incarnated into a personality when the remembrance of his previous Egoship, of course, fades out, and he can "communicate" no longer with his fellowmen on the planet he has left forever, as the individual he was there known to be.=20 After numberless re-incarnations, and on numerous planets and in various spheres, a time will come, at the end of the Maha-Yug or great cycle, when each individuality will have become so spiritualised that, before its final absorption into the One All, its series of past personal existences will marshal themselves before him in a retrospective order like the many days o= f some one period of a man's existence.=20 The words--"their being benevolent or wicked in quality largely depends upo= n the medium's private morality"--which conclude the first quoted sentence mean simply this: a pure medium's Ego can be drawn to and made, for an instant, to unite in a magnetic (?) relation with a real disembodied spirit= , whereas the soul of an impure medium can only confabulate with the astral soul, or "shell," of the deceased. The former possibility explains those extremely rare cases of direct writing in recognized autographs, and of messages from the higher class of disembodied intelligences.=20 We should say then that the personal morality of the medium would be a fair test of the genuineness of the manifestation. As quoted by our friend, "affection to those whom they have left on earth" is "one of the most powerful attractions" between two loving spirits--the embodied and the disembodied one.=20 Whence the idea, then, that the two teachings are "not uniform"? We may wel= l be taxed with too loose and careless a mode of expression, with a misuse of the foreign language in which we write, with leaving too much unsaid and depending unwarrantably upon the imperfectly developed intuition of the reader. But there never was, nor can there be, any radical discrepancy between the teachings in "Isis" and those of this later period, as both proceed from one and the same source--the ADEPT BROTHERS.=20 Theosophist, June, 1882=20 ------------------------------------------- 3 ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISHISHTADWAITA =20 CORRESPONDENCE SIR,--"R. P." attempts in the October number of our Magazine to prove that = I have taught in Isis Unveiled substantially the doctrine of Visishtadwaita, to which view I take exception.=20 I am quite aware of the fact that Isis is far from being as complete a work as, with the same materials, it might have been made by a better scholar; and that it lacks symmetry, as a literary production, and perhaps here and there accuracy. But I have some excuse for all that. It was my first book; it was written in a language foreign to me--in which I had not been accustomed to write; the language was even more unfamiliar to certain Asiatic philosophers who rendered assistance; and, finally, Colonel Olcott, who revised the manuscript and worked with me throughout, was then--in the years 1875 and 1876--almost entirely ignorant of Aryan Philosophy, and henc= e unable to detect and correct such errors as I might so readily fall into when putting my thoughts into English. Still, despite all this, I think "R. P.'s" criticism is faulty.=20 If I erred in making too little distinction between an Impersonal God, or Parabrahm, and a Personal God, I scarcely went to the length of confounding the one with the other completely. The pages (vol. ii. 216-17; and 153; and pref. p. 2) that he relies upon, represent not my own doctrine but the ideas of others.=20 The first two are quotations from Manu, and show what an educated Brahman and a Buddhist might answer to Prof. Max M=FCller's affirmation that Moksha and Nirvana mean annihilation; while the third (vol. ii. p. 153) is a defense and explanation of the inner sense of the Bible, as from a Christia= n mystic's standpoint. Of course this would resemble Visishtadwaitism, which, like Christianity, ascribes personal attributes to the Universal Principle. As for the reference to the Preface, it seems that even when read in the dead-letter sense, the paragraph could only be said to reflect my personal opinion and not the Esoteric Doctrine.=20 A sceptic in my early life, I had sought and obtained through the Masters the full assurance of the existence of a principle (not Personal God)--"a boundless and fathomless ocean" of which my "soul" was a drop.=20 Like the Adwaitis, I made no difference between my Seventh Principle[ATMA] and the Universal Spirit, or Parabrahm; nor did, or do I believe in an individual, segregated spirit in me, as a something apart from the whole. And see, for proof, my remark about the "omnipotence of man's immortal spirit"--which would be a logical absurdity upon any theory of egoistic separation.=20 My mistake was that throughout the whole work I indifferently employed the words Parabrahm and God to express the same idea: a venial sin surely, when one knows that the English language is so poor that even at this moment I a= m using the Sanskrit word to express one idea and the English one for the other!=20 Whether it be orthodox Adwaita or not, I maintain as an occultist, on the authority of the Secret Doctrine, that though merged entirely into Parabrahm, man's spirit while not individual per se, yet preserves its distinct individuality in Paranirvana, owing to the accumulation in it of the aggregates, or skandhas that have survived after each death, from the highest faculties of the Manas. The most spiritual--i.e., the highest and divinest aspirations of every personality follow Buddhi and the Seventh Principle [ATMA] into Devachan (Swarga) after the death of each personality along the line of rebirths, an= d become part and parcel of the Monad [ATMA-BUDDHI]. The personality fades out, disappearing before the occurrence of the evolution of the new personality (rebirth) out of Devachan:=20 but the individuality of the spirit-soul [dear, dear, what can be made out of this English!] is preserved to the end of the great cycle (Maha-Manwantara) when each Ego enters Paranirvana, or is merged in Parabrahm. =20 To our talpatic, or mole-like comprehension, the human spirit is then lost in the One Spirit, as the drop of water thrown into the sea can no longer b= e traced out and recovered. But de facto it is not so in the world of immaterial thought. This latter stands in relation to the human dynamic thought, as, say, the visual power through the strongest conceivable microscope would to the sight of a half-blind man: and yet even this is a most insufficient simile--the difference is "inexpressible in terms of foot-pounds." =20 That such Parabrahmic and Paranirvanic "spirits," or units, have and must preserve their divine (not human) individualities, is shown in the fact that, however long the "night of Brahma" or even the Universal Pralaya (not the local Pralaya affecting some one group of worlds) yet, when it ends, th= e same individual Divine Monad resumes its majestic path of evolution, though on a higher, hundredfold perfected and more pure chain of earths than before, and brings with it all the essence of compound spiritualities from its previous countless rebirths.=20 Spiral evolution, it must be remembered, is dual, and the path of spirituality turns, corkscrew-like, within and around physical, semi-physical, and supra-physical evolution. But I am being tempted into details which had best be left for the full consideration which their importance merits to my forthcoming work, the Secret Doctrine.=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 H. P. BLAVATSKY Theosophist, January, 1886 =20 ------------------------------------------ Best Wishes DTB From christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com Thu Dec 30 06:45:26 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 80434 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 14:45:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 14:45:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.24) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 14:45:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n13.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Dec 2004 14:45:23 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.146] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Dec 2004 14:45:23 -0000 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:45:03 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <04bd01c4eb9e$5548a1c0$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3934 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.24 From: "christinaleestemaker" X-Originating-IP: 83.85.214.69 Subject: Re: Judge "even higher than" Blavatsky?? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162317756 X-Yahoo-Profile: christinaleestemaker --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, ringding777@t... wrote:And is not it that we(all people) just have had the "Manna" above the animal to use that and not to stay in a state of the instincts? Also we need to use the lower thinkingpower, that brings us from the state of the animal with brains, to the human and what the Theosophy is meaning in this, is to raise up from that state to the higher thinking power, the higher mind that works without the lower desires of common things to a state of the human, which lives out of the great sligher of mind =""the lower thinking power and that has nothing to do with NOT thinking AT ALL !!! In the contrary it just have to do with a double kind of thinking but in a Higher way. That people don"t understand, that is not the faillure of the Theosophy, but of the ones are not capable to understand!! So you can not say that Adyar hates thinking people but they don't like to work with that ones working out of the lower thinking. Also I know Radha enough to know that she is like a "Siamese cat"in her speeches for that ones ,who are in the sleepy phase. Christina > > Hello Pasender, if Radha Burnier told you this, than she > lies of course. > There is no theosophical work more important than to verify > They hate thinking people! > > The conspiracy is much more serious than an idealist dreams > of! > Frank > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "pasender" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 6:53 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Judge "even higher than" > Blavatsky?? > > > > > Hello Frak! > > ringding777@t... wrote: > > > Why did they never found the courage the last decades to > > publish them? > > Even the 1900 letter was partly published by Adyar. Does > > that mean the content of Judge's letter is more delicate? > > I think that you are talking about some letters that exists > in Adyar > related to Judge and Besant. > In her last visit to Argentina (April 2004), Radha Burnier > told me > that in Adyar exist a pile of letters about "Judge's case" > that > shows the righteous of Besant's attitude. > "Unfortunately -said me > Radha- there are a lot of theosophical work to do and there > are no > time for compile and edit this material. But someone will > must do it > in some time". > Theosophical Society of Adyar works in order to promote a > spiritual > regeneration in humanity, and usually sees all this kinds of > things > (conflicts, defences, attacks) as a waste of time. This is > actually > the motive for the non publication of these letters, and > there > aren't other imagined reasons... > Dear Frank, as I can see through your messages, you have a > strong > tendency to see "black forces" and "dark reasons" in > everything that > is not your own point of view. Much of your accusations to > Adyar > T.S. are fantasies of people that imagine and speculate, but > don't > actually know, in which sense works the Adyar T.S. > In order to equilibrate your conceptions (which is the > aspiration of > all theosophist), I think that could be a good thing that > you > earnestly know the Adyar TS (in a wide spectrum, not only a > Lodge in > a city), met friendly with the members, know and getting in > contact > with the human beings that they are (in fact, they are your > brothers) and see in a direct form their aspirations, > sacrifices for > the cause of Mahatmas, etc. Probably you discover that all > of us are > simply human beings in the search of truth, nor so much good > nor so > much bad, as being in control of dugpas. You can be in > disaccord > with some points of view, etc. But you will be able to see > in a > compassionate and non-fanatic form the other people. > Sorry if I'm harsh in my expression... but remember that I > don't > know very much English... > With warm regards > p > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links From christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com Thu Dec 30 07:23:45 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 4477 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 15:23:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 15:23:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.47) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 15:23:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n18.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Dec 2004 15:23:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.159] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Dec 2004 15:23:39 -0000 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:23:39 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002801c4ec54$dbc90990$b5d49f3f@downunder> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4094 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.47 From: "christinaleestemaker" X-Originating-IP: 83.85.214.69 Subject: Re: Brotherhood & Truth X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162317756 X-Yahoo-Profile: christinaleestemaker --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Zakk Duffany" wrote: > You hit the nail on his head! Christina > Thoughts on Brotherhood & Truth, ideals of Theosophy : > > Brotherhood : Brotherhood is a term which represents a relationship. > This relationship consists of the communing of brothers. Compassion > is experienced within that relationship. Respect for one another also > is descriptive of brotherhood. Acceptance of one another even though > there be differences, whether it refers to the physical body, the culture, > ideals, or the perspectives of the individual. Brotherhood unifies, brings > together individuals into an aspect of oneness. Who participates in > brotherhood? Is it not one who practices the meaning of brotherhood > versus one who only voices the statement "I am a brother and you are > my brother."? The individual who condemns another, whether it be > towards one's appearance, culture, perspectives, or personal discernment > is not seen as expressing brotherhood. The acceptance and allowance > for another to think freely expresses brotherhood. One does not need to > agree with another to accept another. Brothers have discussions and > share thoughts. Argueing and attempting to impose one's way of thought > upon another is not a defining or action of brotherhood. > Question : Why would an Adept or Master reveal his/her identity and > participate in an organization that proclaims brotherhood but does not > practice it? Why would an Adept or Master reveal more knowledge to > that organization? Does a child run before it walks? Walk before > crawling? Until one practices what one knows and is successful, would > not the next step remain unrevealed? What use is more knowledge to one > who can not assimulate and put forth what is already known? > Truth : Truth is realized through personal discernment. Truth is not > realized by one imposing upon another. Imposing upon another, insulting > another, offending another are all methods of distancing another from > the Truths one may express. Who would wish to distance another from > Truth? The sharing and discussions done through the aspect of brotherhood > promotes personal discernment of Truths. Truths through personal > discernment are realized by each individual in their own time. Why push > another? > Below is an excerpt from a writing called A Threefold Path To Wisdom. > > Seek Truth - Search for that which is true. Not only the truth in which you > see, but the truth that others see. This entails many perspectives. Use an > eye that is open, an ear that is open. In keeping yours open, you will also be > open to the eye and ear of others. This allows for a greater range of truth > to be recognized. Speak truth. In seeing, hearing, and speaking truth, you > will touch upon the truth in it's fulness. If one were to see a shirt that is > seen to be blue, and another says it is not blue; seek to find the truth in the > other's statement. If you can not see it, do not say "What you say is false", > but instead, say "I do not see the truth in what you say". The latter > response is a truer statement. The other, who said the shirt is not blue, could > be seeing a truth also. He could be colorblind. Or he could be thinking that > the shirt is reflecting blue light, giving it a blue appearance, while in actuality, > the shirt is every color but blue. Blue is the only color the shirt is not, for > every color is absorbed into it except that which is reflected and taken in by > the eye. There is truth in all things. Only by seeking the truth in all things, > can you see the truth in all things. This is the sincere seeker of truth. > Seek not for what is false, for then you will be a seeker of that which > is false. Your focus will be in the opposite direction of truth. You will > become a knower of falsehoods instead of a knower of truth. Falsehoods > will overshadow truth, instead of truth overshadowing falsehoods. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Drpsionic@aol.com Thu Dec 30 07:38:10 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 71478 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 15:38:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 15:38:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m25.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.6) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 15:38:00 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.13c.9a96731 (4568) for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:37:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <13c.9a96731.2f057ac2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:37:38 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.6 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World WHO'S KEEPING THE LID ON TOM? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/29/04 11:47:56 PM Central Standard Time, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: << Anyone no where I can read it? >> Any good library should have it and it is available online. Such type Gospel of Thomas into Google. Chuck the Heretic From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Thu Dec 30 10:49:24 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74786 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 18:49:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 18:49:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.net4india.com) (202.71.129.73) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 18:49:21 -0000 Received: from [61.1.105.151] (helo=k) by smtp.net4india.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1Ck5MM-0003UL-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:19:18 +0530 Message-ID: <007401c4eea0$432961a0$9769013d@k> To: Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:18:44 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.71.129.73 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Conscience and Genius X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: www_anandgholap_net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [ www.AnandGholap.net - Online Books on Theosophy ] " As the Thinker develops he becomes more and more conscious of his own inherent powers, and also of the workings of his energies on the lower planes, of the bodies which those energies have drawn around him. He at last begins to try to influence them, using his memory of the past to guide his will, and these impressions we call "conscience" when they deal with morals and "flashes of intuition " when they enlighten the intellect. 241. When these impressions are continuous enough to be normal, we speak of their aggregate as "genius." The higher evolution of the Thinker is marked by his increasing control over his lower vehicles, by their increasing susceptibility to his influence, and their increasing contributions to growth. Those who would deliberately aid in this evolution may do so by a careful training of the lower mind and of the moral character, by steady and well directed effort. 242. The habit of quiet, sustained, and sequential thought, directed to non-worldly subjects, of meditation, of study, develops the mind-body and renders it a better instrument ; the effort to cultivate abstract thinking is also useful, as this raises the lower mind towards the higher, and draws into it the subtlest materials of the lower mental plane. 243. In these and cognate ways all may actively co-operate in their own higher evolution, each step forward making the succeeding steps more rapid. No effort, not even the smallest, is lost, but is followed by its full effect, and every contribution gathered and handed inwards is stored in the treasure-house of the causal body for future use. Thus evolution, however slow and halting, is yet ever onwards, and the divine Life, ever unfolding in every soul, slowly subdues all things to itself." Complete book can be read at http://www.anandgholap.net/Ancient_Wisdom-AB.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Dec 30 12:37:13 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24159 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 20:37:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 20:37:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.36) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 20:37:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Dec 2004 20:37:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.123] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Dec 2004 20:34:35 -0000 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:34:34 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 8429 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.36 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Dec. 30, 2004 Letter to the Editorial Staff of FOHAT about Judge Letters X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Thursday, Dec. 30, 2004 To the Editorial Staff of FOHAT In a recent review of the book titled "The Judge Case - A Conspiracy Which Ruined the Theosophical Cause" by Ernest Pelletier, Katinka Hesselink writes: ----------------------------------------------- In his personal life Judge had been looking for an occult successor for years. First for H.P. Blavatsky, later perhaps for himself as his health was not good. Appendix G (TJC part 2 p. 371-419) goes into the issue of the succession of Judge by Katherine Tingley. Though, according to the introduction to Appendix G the evidence can go both ways, there is one piece of evidence there that in my opinion can't be said to go both ways. This is the letter to Archibald Keightley (TJC part 2 p. 398 . . . ). Here he says, 4 years after Blavatsky passed away, "Enclosed is an exact transcript of what HPB said to me Jan[uar]y 3."... "You can let all worthy & devoted loyalists read this". Despite this the introduction to appendix G says "The conclusion that Judge received and accepted communications from the deceased H.P.B. as genuine, may or may not be accurate". The compiler makes no attempt to show the above mentioned letter as itself a forgery, probably because ample testimony exists that it is authentic. If Judge was an occult teacher, why would he send such a message to his followers with the implication that they should take heart (the message from H.P.B. is positive towards Judge and tells him that 'all will end for the good of all') if he does not believe it is genuine? Obviously he does believe H.P.B. was talking to him. If he was a mere human, this isn't to be wondered at (#). He was in dire straits and would have wondered what to do with himself, the difficulties and the Theosophical Society. That he would turn to mediums to tell him what to do is not strange since the belief was current that sometimes mediums brought messages from Mahatmas. Also it was thought that mediums, if they left their mediumistic talents alone for a bit, might turn into reliable mediators for the Mahatmas at a later date when they got full control over their powers, as H.P.B. herself had done. Where he does cross the line of Blavatsky-based theosophical practice is in assuming that H.P.B. would talk through mediums after her death. She clearly stated she wouldn't. (*) Easy as it is to say this in hindsight: the message in question is an obvious case of a medium (Tingley) telling a client exactly what they want to hear. ------------------------------------------------------ Quoted from: http://blavatskyarchives.com/judgecasereviewbykatinka.htm Apparently in response to the above observations, an anonymous writer in an article titled "Doubts and Doubters" (see FOHAT, Winter 2004, p. 91, footnote 3) commented: -------------------------------------------------------- There are two troubling letters from this time, one from Judge to Archibald Keightley and a corroborative letter from Judge to Katherine Tingley (see TJC 2, pp. 396-402 or O.E. Critic, Vol. 22, Nos. 3 & 4, also see www.blavatskyarchives.com). With a possible mole at the New York headquarters (Fullerton), both these letters should be subject to professional handwriting analysis. Both exhibit a very convincing facsimile of Judge's handwriting, but is it his? With more and more evidence weighing in Judge's favour, evidence such as this should be very suspect and treated accordingly. ------------------------------------------------------- Readers can see the transcriptions of the Judge letter to Archibald Keightley and the other Judge letter to Tingley on the following web pages: http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokesjudge1495.htm http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokesjudge1595.htm The anonymous writer does not specify in the FOHAT article why the two letters are "troubling" and does not explain what is meant by the last sentence which reads: "With more and more evidence weighing in Judge's favour, evidence such as this should be very suspect and treated accordingly." One can only try to guess at what the writer's thinking on this subject is all about. I surmise that the FOHAT writer does not like the idea that Judge might have believed he was in communication with the deceased Blavatsky or that Judge might have been obtaining such communications thru Mrs. Tingley. (???) Anyway, the writer of this FOHAT article seems to be suggesting that Alexander Fullerton ("a possible mole") may have either forged these two letters in Judge's handwriting or planted the forged letters at someone else's request. But the anonymous writer does not give any details as to when these letters were forged and planted or the motivation for doing so, etc. Such vague speculation strikes me as of the same character as much of the speculation in K. Paul Johnson's three books on Blavatsky and the Masters. A side thought: If the letters were examined by a "handwriting expert" and certified as genuine Judge, what would be the reaction of the anonymous writer? But I ask: Is there any OTHER evidence that would let readers determine if the FOHAT speculation about the 2 Judge letters is valid or not? Consider below the extract quoted from the E.S.T. Circular of April 3, 1896 which was issued soon after Judge's death by the following Theosophists: E.T. HARGROVE. JAMES M. PRYSE. JOSEPH H. FUSSELL. H.T. PATTERSON. CLAUDE FALLS WRIGHT. GENEVIEVE LUDLOW GRISCOM. C.A. GRISCOM, JR. E. AUG. NERESHEIMER. The extract reads: --------------------------------------------------------- In a long message received by him [Judge] from H.P.B., extracts from which were read at a general E.S.T. meeting in New York about a year ago, these being at the same time sent to the Advisory Council in London, there are some important references to this chela: "H.P.B., Jan. 3rd, 1895. Yours is not a bootless [?] errand. You have nobly sustained our cause in the crisis. Be encourage. Well did Master know the staunch fearless attributes of your soul when he directed me to make you leader of our craft in America. As the centre of our force is attacked the more does our light work for the right. Victory is ours. All will end for the good of all. Mistakes have been made, but you have not gone far from the lines laid down by Master. My desire is for you to be careful about sending out Instructions to the E.S., for treacherous and unworthy persons are within the gates, and all new ideas will be appropriated by the other side after the split. "Our dear chela, you have at last found your fellow chela, who was one of ours years ago, consecrated to the work then, and now by the Master's will brought face to face with you. ----- and ----- [signs representing the inner selves of H.P.B. and "Promise"] is Raavais, linked with you in our work. As your light shines into 'Promise's ' soul, fears will disappear as the dew before the sun. Time will regulate all this. -------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted from: http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokesestapril96.htm This extract in the April 1896 E.S.T. circular and the quoted words of HPB refer back to material that is found in the document that the FOHAT anonymous writer is suggesting might be a forgery. Compare the above extract with Judge's letter to Archibald Keightley and the accompanying transcript at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokesjudge1495.htm It would appear that in April 1896 some of Judge's close and trusted associates were reminding all E.S.T. members of Judge's School of what had been read "about a year ago" [early 1895] at a general E.S.T. meeting in New York as well as being sent to the Advisory Council in London. This evidence indicates that the HPB quotations dated Jan. 3rd 1895 were known to a number of E.S.T. members and officials in both New York and London possibly as early as January 1895. That is, when Mr. Judge was alive and living in New York and conducting E.S.T. business. It was also in January 1895 that Mr. Judge issued Subsidiary Papers, No. B. See reprint of this paper in ECHOES OF THE ORIENT, Vol. III, pp. 465-472. See page 465 to see what E.S.T. members were on the Advisory Council in London. I hope you will print this letter of mine in the next regular issue of FOHAT. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER http://hpb.cc From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Dec 30 12:37:51 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67999 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 20:37:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 20:37:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m22.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 20:37:50 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.d7.1cebc2d1 (3858) for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:37:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:37:28 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.3 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World WHO'S KEEPING THE LID ON TOM? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Go to: http://reluctant-messenger.com/gospel-of-thomas.htm In a message dated 12/30/04 1:47:58 AM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: > >Have just been watching a program on TV which said that the Gospel >of St Thomas contradicts the Gospels of MMLJ. It's authenticity >they are saying is within 30 years of Christ's teachings. >It is done in parable form and states that Jesus was a Master and >not a Messiah, he did not raise Lazarus from the dead, nor did Jesus >resurrect himself. >Isn't it ironic that this Gospel should come from doubting Thomas??? >Anyone no where I can read it? > >Cass From silva_cass@yahoo.com Thu Dec 30 15:19:18 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 81796 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2004 23:19:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2004 23:19:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.81) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 23:19:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 3196 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Dec 2004 23:19:10 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=GLiPGu8h6GRENGwupZU5pO0FqtCs92w6Dwsw1M8FaqresL9UfGX49vz/dv4Eh4ADqAqaCNawAYDnKvEIOV4g59IAQpIuyu0q/5Iv1K8C5gmLqQm1IrYDtv1a3tTtLkXVu+7DejKNc7muoGwVRomESa/FVWViRsXhXESsclJ98lM= ; Message-ID: <20041230231910.3194.qmail@web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:19:10 PST Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:19:10 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.81 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Brotherhood & Truth X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Zakk May I use what you have written? It explains, better than I ever could about Truth and Brotherhood and may be helpful for others who are looking for truth within themselves. Cass christinaleestemaker wrote: --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Zakk Duffany" wrote: > You hit the nail on his head! Christina > Thoughts on Brotherhood & Truth, ideals of Theosophy : > > Brotherhood : Brotherhood is a term which represents a relationship. > This relationship consists of the communing of brothers. Compassion > is experienced within that relationship. Respect for one another also > is descriptive of brotherhood. Acceptance of one another even though > there be differences, whether it refers to the physical body, the culture, > ideals, or the perspectives of the individual. Brotherhood unifies, brings > together individuals into an aspect of oneness. Who participates in > brotherhood? Is it not one who practices the meaning of brotherhood > versus one who only voices the statement "I am a brother and you are > my brother."? The individual who condemns another, whether it be > towards one's appearance, culture, perspectives, or personal discernment > is not seen as expressing brotherhood. The acceptance and allowance > for another to think freely expresses brotherhood. One does not need to > agree with another to accept another. Brothers have discussions and > share thoughts. Argueing and attempting to impose one's way of thought > upon another is not a defining or action of brotherhood. > Question : Why would an Adept or Master reveal his/her identity and > participate in an organization that proclaims brotherhood but does not > practice it? Why would an Adept or Master reveal more knowledge to > that organization? Does a child run before it walks? Walk before > crawling? Until one practices what one knows and is successful, would > not the next step remain unrevealed? What use is more knowledge to one > who can not assimulate and put forth what is already known? > Truth : Truth is realized through personal discernment. Truth is not > realized by one imposing upon another. Imposing upon another, insulting > another, offending another are all methods of distancing another from > the Truths one may express. Who would wish to distance another from > Truth? The sharing and discussions done through the aspect of brotherhood > promotes personal discernment of Truths. Truths through personal > discernment are realized by each individual in their own time. Why push > another? > Below is an excerpt from a writing called A Threefold Path To Wisdom. > > Seek Truth - Search for that which is true. Not only the truth in which you > see, but the truth that others see. This entails many perspectives. Use an > eye that is open, an ear that is open. In keeping yours open, you will also be > open to the eye and ear of others. This allows for a greater range of truth > to be recognized. Speak truth. In seeing, hearing, and speaking truth, you > will touch upon the truth in it's fulness. If one were to see a shirt that is > seen to be blue, and another says it is not blue; seek to find the truth in the > other's statement. If you can not see it, do not say "What you say is false", > but instead, say "I do not see the truth in what you say". The latter > response is a truer statement. The other, who said the shirt is not blue, could > be seeing a truth also. He could be colorblind. Or he could be thinking that > the shirt is reflecting blue light, giving it a blue appearance, while in actuality, > the shirt is every color but blue. Blue is the only color the shirt is not, for > every color is absorbed into it except that which is reflected and taken in by > the eye. There is truth in all things. Only by seeking the truth in all things, > can you see the truth in all things. This is the sincere seeker of truth. > Seek not for what is false, for then you will be a seeker of that which > is false. Your focus will be in the opposite direction of truth. You will > become a knower of falsehoods instead of a knower of truth. Falsehoods > will overshadow truth, instead of truth overshadowing falsehoods. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Dec 30 16:19:48 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 25115 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 00:19:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 00:19:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO keymaster.look.ca) (207.136.80.9) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 00:19:47 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.106] (helo=idirect.ca) by keymaster.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CkAW0-0006yO-Pg for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:19:37 +0000 Message-ID: <41D49BD8.8020209@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:22:48 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.9 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: re forms of Theosophical expression X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn prmoliveira wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Mauri wrote: > > >>Sometimes I wish HPB were available for >>comment on these lists. Every so often >>I find myself wanting to send some >>speculative tangent her way in response >>to something she wrote. > > > How can you be sure she isn't? Why don't you send your speculative > tangents? *She* might reply. > > > Pedro Yes, *She* might reply, whoever/however "*She*" might be interpreted as these days, eh ... Anyway I already sent a bunch of posts out with some thoughts like that in mind. ^:-/ ... Mauri From silva_cass@yahoo.com Thu Dec 30 16:20:44 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 16008 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 00:20:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 00:20:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90105.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.76) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 00:20:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 41783 invoked by uid 60001); 31 Dec 2004 00:20:43 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=6UFXvTt/XO2G+MfvoNWKT+wrpHbZ/rkiS85P4+j+oBPUU3xC62D0nKHI87DE8UXQjEFx/7FP/5EBYBSOQLzbAeT69LQ5Y7RJfU40p498MDR3HDrS2cb3aAsEsEq6MtueJCnfRJjVf9Gubw3+QQ252aJ/T8Jlfede0rCFydDhnYw= ; Message-ID: <20041231002043.41781.qmail@web90105.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90105.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:20:43 PST Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:20:43 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20041230054004.56639.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.76 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Did Judge teach hatred ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Zakk Read letter 85B, and am now even more confused. "that the individuality or the immortal "Ego" has to re-appear "in every cycle". The "astral monad" is the personal "ego" and therefore it never reincarnates, but under "exceptional circumstances", in which case, reincarnating, it does not become a shell, but if successful in its second reincarnation will become one, and then gradually lose its personality, after being so to say emptied of its best and highest spiritual attributes by the immortal monad or the "Spiritual Ego". CS: If unsuccessful in reincarnating it does become a shell and gradually disintegrates and eventually proceeds to Devachan? CS: at the death of the second reincarnation it will then become a shell and gradually disintegrates and eventually proceeds to Devachan? Although very interesting it doesnt answer my question regarding the "spiritual Ego" never re-incarnating on the same planet, or in the same cycle, even though it may only spend 3000 years in Devachan. Surely this planet (earth) will be around 1,000,000 years from now, so where are we in Devachan Circa 3001? M. does say in Letter No. 44 The perfect man or the entity which reached full perfection, (each of his seven principles being matured) will not be reborn here. His local terrestrial cycle is completed and he has to either proceed onward or - be annihilated as an individuality. (The incomplete entities have to be reborn or reincarnated). On their fifth round after a partial Nirvana when the zenith of the grand cycle is reached, they will be held responsible henceforth in their descents from sphere to sphere, as they will have to appear on this earth as a still more perfect and intellectual race. This downward course has not yet begun but will soon. Only how many - oh, how many will be destroyed on their way! CS: What does he mean when he says "he has to either proceed onward - or be annibilated as an individuality? I am supposing he means Nirvana - total bliss for all time? Dallas keeps sending me articles on reincarnation but I cannot find anything relating to my question. Your help would be appreciated. Regards Cass Cass Silva wrote: Thanks Zakk Duffany wrote: Cass, In Collected Writings Volume X (December 1888), look at The Dirge For The Dead. It will explain the usage of the words planet and cycle in regards to reincarnation as it was stated in Isis Unveiled. Misconceptions arose due to the wording that was utilized. It may clear up some questions. In referencing ML 85-B, it was not from an internet site but a from a CD on HPB material. I do not know if they correlate the same. > Dear Zakk > Have looked up Mahatma Letters and HPB's letters and there is no 85B. >Only 85 which doesnt refer to reincarnation to the same planet.< Cass Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Thu Dec 30 16:23:48 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 96491 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 00:23:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 00:23:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.80) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 00:23:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 47293 invoked by uid 60001); 31 Dec 2004 00:23:48 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=MTK9orDISO9vFuDqpGA5+h8pNZmP6Cd34V9j+laAK9LIv3Eieeg7Ld1EGBnD5WsgvPqLGwN8jMhx6CFDIW2BAKhBHLSPe40gfOHBQ4WhhdarZb2z4rk5rvV/DwL5ng6OqI/Tl/c/nFejjoexoYrs2mk7UOFDaBzVY/ZcEa4aEcI= ; Message-ID: <20041231002348.47291.qmail@web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:23:48 PST Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:23:48 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20041230072133.72973.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.80 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World How fractal evolution works - part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Leon Will trying to find an answer to my questions on Devachan and reincarnating back to Earth, I came across this "No; there are no clocks, no timepieces in Devachan, my esteemed chela, though the whole Cosmos is a gigantic chronometer in one sense. Cass Cass Silva wrote: Dear Leon Nothing to fret about when you put it like that. I bet I know what your first question will be !!! Cass ps had a quiet cackle over the jokes leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: Dear Cass, I wouldn't worry about it. When we shuck off this body and all its inhibitive and noise making senses, we will hear the "Voice of the Silence" of the thinker who thinks about us, and we can ask it anything we wish to... And, get a straight answer directly from the horses mouth. We also won't be lonely, since we'll be in the company of everyone we ever knew abd loved in our heart. Could they be in any other mind's thoughts than we are in and always will be? Besides, we will have already worked through our memory of this life and its karmic lessons the moment we shuffle off through the gate, and have plenty of time to ruminate about what we have to do in the next life to mediate the karma we left behind in this one. What more verification of our own existence than that do we need? >From a scientific point of view, how can we be less than the absolute zero-point and its surrounding infinite abstract motion or spinergy -- that must always carry and retain in its patterns of vibrations the entire holistic memory of all the thoughts and actions of whatever was, is, and will be? So, how can our individual existence and its experiences ever be lost? When that pre-thought memory awakens, won't every individual ray of consciousness emanating from it go back to wherever they left off during the last awakening -- to continue on from there? Could there be any other way, for any being that was Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent, to carry on with the game of life? If not, then how could it and everything in it's memory, and later, thoughts, not exist forever -- even if only in its mind? So, what's there to fret about? Leon In a message dated 12/28/04 9:02:09 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: >Dear Leon > >Another question, > >It seems to me that we, like IT, are in manifestation to "know that we >know ourselves". When we die and are in a purely subjective state we cannot >verify our own existence but only know that subjective state of all knowing >without verification (when we are dead). I am not looking forward to that, >a little centre of consciousness, ruminating on past lives and ,making >vows to "do things differently, next time", without being able to say to >someone, "Hey, what do you think?" > >>From a little point of consciousnessess point of view, I think it could >get pretty lonely being omniscient. > >Cass > >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > >Dear Cass, > >Since you seem to get the point, I have no wonder about where you are coming >from. You are right, the knowing flows in both directions, the manifestation >(us) must know itself while the self (it) that created the manifestation must >know its creation. That is the nature of thought thinking within itself... >And, why we know we are conscious and know that we know we are conscious. >Thus, the thinker in us is the thought of the thinker who thought us up. I hope >that clears things up a bit about where I'm coming from. :-) > >Leon > Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Thu Dec 30 16:37:42 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 96921 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 00:37:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 00:37:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.79) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 00:37:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 47545 invoked by uid 60001); 31 Dec 2004 00:37:41 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=F4pvswrpiaI4d7/MeU28uRvtgEFrsdji9cfIhaR+NXABeE4Vm9StllC+5ieCkfdlb5vlRfus9eKlStdNiuFj2MdbSE+h/lNR5m3AOPU6CQh1ZdtpCPs6QbWQpKIHiKdE47b3oCKx6RGmPJNHOuycV4d5xsiOgoNUGfSO6zvSIjo= ; Message-ID: <20041231003741.47543.qmail@web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:37:41 PST Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:37:41 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <41D49BD8.8020209@idirect.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.79 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: re forms of Theosophical expression X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mauri I don't see how HPB could be in contact with anyone, as it goes against the rules. My understanding is that we, while on earth, can, under very, very, very special circumstances, send a ray of ourselves to Devachan. I am very unclear about this, but the Masters and HPB are continually stating that once disembodied, there is no return/contact with the living, only through the shell and only through a medium, which if it did occur, would contravene everything HPB said about the Spiritualists. That is why I question any Theosophical Member proposing a contact by a resurrection of the dead. On the lighter side, I would like to meet the medium who would channel HPB or even HPB's shell! Cass That (a) the Jiv follows the divine monad that gives it spiritual life and immortality into Devachan--that therefore,it can neither be reborn before its appointed period, nor reappear on Earth visibly or invisibly in the interim; and (b) that, unless the fruition, the spiritual aroma of the Manas, or all these highest aspirations and spiritual qualities and attributes that constitute the higher SELF of man become united to its monad, the latter becomes as Non existent; since it is in esse "impersonal" and per se Ego-less, so to say, and gets its spiritual colouring or flavour of Ego-tism only from each Manas during incarnation and after it is disembodied, and separated from all its lower principles. Mauri wrote: prmoliveira wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Mauri wrote: > > >>Sometimes I wish HPB were available for >>comment on these lists. Every so often >>I find myself wanting to send some >>speculative tangent her way in response >>to something she wrote. > > > How can you be sure she isn't? Why don't you send your speculative > tangents? *She* might reply. > > > Pedro Yes, *She* might reply, whoever/however "*She*" might be interpreted as these days, eh ... Anyway I already sent a bunch of posts out with some thoughts like that in mind. ^:-/ ... Mauri Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Thu Dec 30 16:53:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 38117 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 00:53:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 00:53:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.80) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 00:53:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 52336 invoked by uid 60001); 31 Dec 2004 00:53:29 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=3G0MCuyT4/zpnDcA8G3WpGOcsoQT/8pDbSTnvWJuOoIfepLD0ycaIHf3hVbbDi6cwdnpmaFelS8Q3BmSCPphdZXHH3a7txaC0nS1uX2SOVjCL2gJlJN6TU2FFzleUAJxtYob0SnCbm9gWPrhNbeD0yoaNja8q9aHdg5woxn4g/k= ; Message-ID: <20041231005329.52334.qmail@web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:53:24 PST Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:53:24 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <001601c4ee70$3030aa20$100cf4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.80 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Isis and Reincarnation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Dallas =20 HPB: Even that takes place over and over again till the highest condition of humanity, as known on this earth, is attained, but not afterwards, and here is the clue to the mystery.... But once let a man be a= s far perfected by successive re-incarnations as the present race will permit= , and then his next re-incarnation will be among the early growths of the nex= t higher world, where the earliest growths are far higher than the highest here. CASS: This I understand takes place when we have reached perfection. At the= end of the 7th round. =20 HPB: We will now present a few fragments of this mysterious doctrine of re-Incarnation--as distinct from metempsychosis--which we have from an authority. Re-Incarnation, i.e., the appearance of the same individual--or rather, of his astral monad--twice on the same planet is not a rule in nature; it is an exception, like the teratological phenomenon of a two-headed infant.=20=20 There is a mighty difference in our Occult doctrine between an impersonal Individuality, and an individual Personality. C.C.M. will not be reincarnated; nor will he be in his next re-birth C.C.M., but quite a new being, born of the thoughts and deeds of C.C.M.: his own creation, the chil= d and fruit of his present life, the effect of the causes he is now producing= . =20=20 CASS: HPB talking about the "astral monad" or the "same personality" re-incarnating on the same planet. As the personality the lower, disinteg= rates at death. =20 =20 Having enjoyed a time of bliss, proportionate to his deserts, the new personal Ego gets re-incarnated into a personality when the remembrance of his previous Egoship, of course, fades out, and he can "communicate" no longer with his fellowmen on the planet he has left forever, as the individual he was there known to be.=20 CASS: ON THE PLANET HE HAS LEFT FOREVER. This is where my quandary is, if = we are only 3000 years in Devachan, say I die tomorrow, do I reincarnate on= Venus? Will my karma attract those around me to Venus also? I am using Venus as a= label for a place I know not where. After numberless re-incarnations, and on numerous planets and in various spheres, a time will come, at the end of the Maha-Yug or great cycle, when each individuality will have become so spiritualised that, before its final absorption into the One All, its series of past personal existences will marshal themselves before him in a retrospective order like the many days o= f some one period of a man's existence. =20 CASS: We get to see the whole picture, every life, every personality, becau= se we have achieved perfection, and then I take it we have a choice to eith= er remain as part of human chain, or we can be assimilated into Nirvana for= eternity (perfect bliss) or we can choose to become a lower god of another= planetary system? =20 What are your ideas? =20 Cass "W.Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: Dec 30 2004 Dear Friend: Here are two more articles by HPB on the subject Isis and Reincarnation ------------------------------------------------- 1 "ISIS UNVEILED" AND THE "THEOSOPHIST" ON REINCARNATION H. P. Blavatsky IN LIGHT (July 8) C.C.M. quotes from the THEOSOPHIST (June 1882) a sentence which appeared in the Editor's Note at the foot of an article headed "Seeming Discrepancies."=20 Then, turning to the review of "The Perfect Way" in the same number, he quotes at length from "an authoritative teaching of the later period," as h= e adds rather sarcastically. Then, again, a long paragraph from Isis. The three quotations and the remarks of our friend run thus:=20 "There never was, nor can there be, any radical discrepancy between the teachings in 'Isis' ('Isis Unveiled') and those of this later period, as both proceed from one and the same source--the ADEPT BROTHERS. (Editor's Note in Seeming Discrepancies.")=20 Having drawn the attention of his readers to the above assertion C.C.M. proceeds to show--as he thinks--its fallacy:=20 "To begin with, re-Incarnation--if other worlds besides this are taken into account--is the regular routine of nature. But re-Incarnation in the next higher objective world is one thing; re-Incarnation on this earth is another. Even that takes place over and over again till the highest condition of humanity, as known on this earth, is attained, but not afterwards, and here is the clue to the mystery.... But once let a man be a= s far perfected by successive re-incarnations as the present race will permit= , and then his next re-incarnation will be among the early growths of the nex= t higher world, where the earliest growths are far higher than the highest here. The ghastly mistake that the modern re-lncarnationists make is in supposing that there can be a return on this earth to lower bodily forms";--not, therefore, that man is re-incarnated as man again and again upon this earth, for that is laid down as truth in the above cited passages in the most positive and explicit form." (Review of T.P.W. in the Theosophist.)=20 And now for "Isis": [ I 351-2 ] "We will now present a few fragments of this mysterious doctrine of re-Incarnation--as distinct from metempsychosis--which we have from an authority. Re-Incarnation, i.e., the appearance of the same individual--or rather, of his astral monad--twice on the same planet is not a rule in nature; it is an exception, like the teratological phenomenon of a two-headed infant.=20 It is preceded by a violation of the laws of harmony of nature and happens only when the latter, seeking to restore its disturbed equilibrium, violently throws back into earth-life the astral monad, which has been tossed out of the circle of necessity by crime or accident. Thus in cases o= f abortion, of infants dying before a certain age, and of congenital and incurable idiocy, nature's original design to produce a perfect human being has been interrupted. Therefore, while the gross matter of each of these several entities is suffered to disperse itself at death through the vast realm of being, the immortal Spirit and astral monad of the individual--the latter having been set apart to animate a frame, and the former to shed its divine light on th= e corporeal organization--must try a second time to carry out the purpose of the creative intelligence.=20 If reason has been so far developed as to become active and discriminative, there is no re-incarnation on, this earth, for the three parts of the triun= e man have been united together, and he is capable of running the race. But when the new being has not passed beyond the condition of monad, or when, a= s in the idiot, the trinity has not been completed, the immortal spark which illuminates it has to re-enter on the earthly planet, as it was frustrated in its first attempt. . . . Further, the same occult doctrine recognizes another possibility, albeit so rare and so vague that it is really useless to mention it. Even the modern Occidental Occultists deny it, though it is universally accepted in Eastern countries." . . .=20 This is the occasional return of the terribly depraved human Spirits which have fallen to the eighth sphere--it is unnecessary to quote the passage at length. Exclusive of that rare and doubtful possibility, then "Isis"--I hav= e quoted from volume I, pp. 351-2--allows only three cases--abortion, very early death, and idiocy--in which re-Incarnation on this earth occurs.=20 I am a long-suffering student of the mysteries, more apt to accuse my own stupidity than to make "seeming discrepancies" an occasion for scoffing. Bu= t after all, two and three will not make just four; black is not white, nor, in reference to plain and definite statements, is "Yes" equivalent to "No." If there is one thing which I ardently desire to be taught, it is the truth about this same question of re-Incarnation. I hope I am not, as a dutiful Theosophist, expected to reconcile the statement of "Isis" with that of thi= s authoritative Reviewer. But there is one consolation. The accomplished authoress of "Isis" cannot have totally forgotten the teaching on this subject therein contained. She, therefore, certainly did not dictate the statements of the Reviewer. If I may conjecture that Koot Hoomi stands clos= e behind the latter, then assuredly Koot Hoomi is not, as has been maliciousl= y suggested, an alias for Madame Blavatsky.=20 "C.C.M." --------------------------------------------------------- We hope not--for Koot Hoomi's sake. Mme. B. would become too vain and too proud, could she but dream of such an honour. But how true the remark of th= e French classic: La critique est ais=E9e, mais l'art est difficile [Criticis= m is easy, Art is difficult] --though we feel more inclined to hang our diminished head in sincere sorrow and exclaim: Et tu Brute!--than to quote old truisms. Only, where that (even) "seeming discrepancy" is to be found between the two passages--except by those who are entirely ignorant of the occult doctrine--will be certainly a mystery to every Eastern Occultist who reads the above and who studies at the same school as the reviewer of "The Perfect Way."=20 Nevertheless the latter is chosen as the weapon to break our head with. It is sufficient to read No. 1 of the Fragments of Occult Truth, and ponder over the septenary constitution of man into which the triple human entity i= s divided by the occultists, to perceive that the "astral" monad is not the "Spiritual" monad and vice versa.=20 That there is no discrepancy whatsoever between the two statements, may be easily shown, and we hope will be shown, by our friend the "reviewer." The most that can be said of the passage quoted from Isis is, that it is incomplete, chaotic, vague, perhaps--clumsy, as many more passages in that work, the first literary production of a foreigner, who even now can hardly boast of her knowledge of the English language. Therefore, in the face of the statement from the very correct and excellent review of "The Perfect Way"--we say again that "Reincarnation, i.e., the appearance of the same individual--or rather, of his astral monad (or the personality as claimed b= y the modern Reincarnationists)--twice on the same planet is not a rule in nature "and that it is an exception."=20 Let us try once more to explain our meaning. The reviewer speaks of the "Spiritual Individuality" or the Immortal Monad as it is called, i.e. the 7th and 6th [ATMA & BUDDHI] Principles in the Fragments. In Isis we refer t= o the personality or the Finite astral monad, a compound of imponderable elements composed of the 5th and 4th [MANAS & KAMA] principles.=20 The former as an emanation of the ONE absolute is indestructible; the latte= r as an elementary compound is finite and doomed sooner or later to destruction with the exception of the more spiritualized portions of the 5t= h principle (the Manas or mind) which are assimilated by the 6th principle [BUDDHI] when it follows the 7th [ATMA] to its "gestation state" to be reborn or not reborn, as the case may be, in the Arupa Loka (the Formless World). The seven principles, forming, so to say, a triad and a Quaternary, or, as some have it a "Compound Trinity" subdivided into a triad and two duads may be better understood in the following groups of Principles :=20 And now we ask,--where is the "discrepancy" or contradiction? Whether man was good, bad, or indifferent, Group II has to become either a "shell," or to be once or several times more reincarnated under "exceptional circumstances."=20 There is a mighty difference in our Occult doctrine between an impersonal Individuality, and an individual Personality. C.C.M. will not be reincarnated; nor will he be in his next re-birth C.C.M., but quite a new being, born of the thoughts and deeds of C.C.M.: his own creation, the chil= d and fruit of his present life, the effect of the causes he is now producing= . Shall we say then with the Spiritists that C.C.M., the man, we know, will b= e re-born again? No; but that his divine Monad will be clothed thousands of times yet before the end of the Grand Cycle, in various human forms, every one of them a new personality.=20 Like a mighty tree that clothes itself every spring with a new foliage, to see it wither and die towards autumn, so the eternal Monad prevails through the series of smaller cycles, ever the same, yet ever changing and putting on, at each birth, a new garment. The bud, that failed to open one year, will re-appear in the next; the leaf that reached its maturity and died a natural death--can never be re-born on the same tree again. While writing Isis, we were not permitted to enter into details; hence--the vague generalities. We are told to do so now--and we do as we are commanded. And thus, it seems, after all, that "two and three" will "make just four," if the "three" was only mistaken for that number. And, we have heard of cases when that, which was universally regarded and denounced as something very "black"--shockingly so--suddenly re-became "white," as soon as an additional light was permitted to shine upon it. Well, the day may yet come when even the much misunderstood occultists will appear in such a light. Vaut mieux tard que jamais! [Better late than never.] Meanwhile we will wait and see whether C.C.M. will quote again from our present answer--in Light.=20 Theosophist, August, 1882=20 ----------------------------------------------------- 2 SEEMING "DISCREPANCIES" H. P. Blavatsky TO THE EDITOR OF THE "THEOSOPHIST" I have lately been engaged in devoting a few evenings' study to your admirable article, "FRAGMENTS OF OCCULT TRUTH," which deserves far more attention than a mere casual reading. It is therein stated that the translated Ego cannot span the abyss separating its state from ours, or tha= t it cannot descend into our atmosphere and reach us; that it attracts but cannot be attracted, or, in short, that no departed SPIRIT can visit us.=20 In Vol. I., page 67, of "Isis," I find it said that many of the spirits, subjectively controlling mediums, are human disembodied spirits, that their being benevolent or wicked in quality largely depends upon the medium's private morality, that "they cannot materialise, but only project their =E6therial reflections on the atmospheric waves."=20 On page 69:=20 "Not every one can attract human spirits, who likes. One of the most powerful attractions of our departed ones is their strong affection for those whom they have left on earth. It draws them irresistibly, by degrees, into the current of the astral light vibrating between the person sympathetic to them and the universal soul."=20 On page 325:=20 "Sometimes, but rarely, the planetary spirits . . . produce them (subjectiv= e manifestations); sometimes the spirits of our translated and beloved friends, &c."=20 >From the foregoing it would appear as if both teachings were not uniform, but it may be that souls, instead of spirits, are implied, or that I have misunderstood the meaning.=20 Such difficult subjects are rather puzzling to Western students, especially to one who, like myself, is a mere tyro, though always grateful to receive knowledge from those who are in a position to impart such.=20 Yours, &c., CALEDONIAN THEOSOPHIST 9th January, 1882=20 ---------------------------- EDITOR'S NOTE.--It is to be feared that our valued Brother has both misunderstood our meaning in "Isis" and that of the "Fragments of Occult Truth." Read in their correct sense, the statements in the latter do not offer the slightest discrepancy with the passages quoted from "Isis," but both teachings are uniform.=20 Our "Caledonian" Brother believes that, because it is stated in "Isis," tha= t "many, among those who control the medium subjectively, are human disembodied spirits," and in the "Fragments," in the words of our critic, that "the Ego cannot span the abyss separating its state from ours . . . cannot descend into our atmosphere, . . . or, in short, that no departed SPIRIT can visit us"--there is a contradiction between the two teachings?=20 We answer--"None at all." We reiterate both statements, and will defend the proposition. Throughout "Isis"--although an attempt was made in the Introductory Chapter to show the great difference that exists between the terms "soul" and "spirit"--one the reliqui=9C of the personal EGO, the othe= r the pure essence of the spiritual INDIVIDUALITY--the term "spirit" had to b= e often used in the sense given to it by the Spiritualists, as well as other similar conventional terms, as, otherwise, a still greater confusion would have been caused. Therefore, the meaning of the three sentences, cited by our friend, should be thus understood:=20 On page 67 [Isis I ] wherein it is stated that many of the spirits, subjectively controlling mediums, are human disembodied spirits," &c., the word "controlling" must not be understood in the sense of a "spirit" possessing himself of the organism of a medium; nor that, in each case, it is a "spirit"; for often it is but a shell in its preliminary stage of dissolution, when most of the physical intelligence and faculties are yet fresh and have not begun to disintegrate, or fade out.=20 A "spirit," or the spiritual Ego, cannot descend to the medium, but it can attract the spirit of the latter to itself, and it can do this only during the two intervals--before and after its "gestation period." Interval the first is that period between the physical death and the merging of the spiritual Ego into that state which is known in the Arhat esoteric doctrine as "BAR-DO." We have translated this as the "gestation" period, and it last= s from a few days to several years, according to the evidence of the adepts.= =20 Interval the second, lasts so long as the merits of the old Ego entitle the being to reap the fruit of its reward in its new regenerated Ego-ship. It occurs after the gestation period is over, and the new spiritual Ego is reborn--like the fabled Ph=9Cnix from its ashes--from the old one. The locality, which the former inhabits, is called by the northern Buddhist Occultists "DEVA-CHAN," the word answering, perhaps, to Paradise or the Kingdom of Heaven of the Christian elect.=20 Having enjoyed a time of bliss, proportionate to his deserts, the new personal Ego gets re-incarnated into a personality when the remembrance of his previous Egoship, of course, fades out, and he can "communicate" no longer with his fellowmen on the planet he has left forever, as the individual he was there known to be.=20 After numberless re-incarnations, and on numerous planets and in various spheres, a time will come, at the end of the Maha-Yug or great cycle, when each individuality will have become so spiritualised that, before its final absorption into the One All, its series of past personal existences will marshal themselves before him in a retrospective order like the many days o= f some one period of a man's existence.=20 The words--"their being benevolent or wicked in quality largely depends upo= n the medium's private morality"--which conclude the first quoted sentence mean simply this: a pure medium's Ego can be drawn to and made, for an instant, to unite in a magnetic (?) relation with a real disembodied spirit= , whereas the soul of an impure medium can only confabulate with the astral soul, or "shell," of the deceased. The former possibility explains those extremely rare cases of direct writing in recognized autographs, and of messages from the higher class of disembodied intelligences.=20 We should say then that the personal morality of the medium would be a fair test of the genuineness of the manifestation. As quoted by our friend, "affection to those whom they have left on earth" is "one of the most powerful attractions" between two loving spirits--the embodied and the disembodied one.=20 Whence the idea, then, that the two teachings are "not uniform"? We may wel= l be taxed with too loose and careless a mode of expression, with a misuse of the foreign language in which we write, with leaving too much unsaid and depending unwarrantably upon the imperfectly developed intuition of the reader. But there never was, nor can there be, any radical discrepancy between the teachings in "Isis" and those of this later period, as both proceed from one and the same source--the ADEPT BROTHERS.=20 Theosophist, June, 1882=20 ------------------------------------------- 3 ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISHISHTADWAITA CORRESPONDENCE SIR,--"R. P." attempts in the October number of our Magazine to prove that = I have taught in Isis Unveiled substantially the doctrine of Visishtadwaita, to which view I take exception.=20 I am quite aware of the fact that Isis is far from being as complete a work as, with the same materials, it might have been made by a better scholar; and that it lacks symmetry, as a literary production, and perhaps here and there accuracy. But I have some excuse for all that. It was my first book; it was written in a language foreign to me--in which I had not been accustomed to write; the language was even more unfamiliar to certain Asiatic philosophers who rendered assistance; and, finally, Colonel Olcott, who revised the manuscript and worked with me throughout, was then--in the years 1875 and 1876--almost entirely ignorant of Aryan Philosophy, and henc= e unable to detect and correct such errors as I might so readily fall into when putting my thoughts into English. Still, despite all this, I think "R. P.'s" criticism is faulty.=20 If I erred in making too little distinction between an Impersonal God, or Parabrahm, and a Personal God, I scarcely went to the length of confounding the one with the other completely. The pages (vol. ii. 216-17; and 153; and pref. p. 2) that he relies upon, represent not my own doctrine but the ideas of others.=20 The first two are quotations from Manu, and show what an educated Brahman and a Buddhist might answer to Prof. Max M=FCller's affirmation that Moksha and Nirvana mean annihilation; while the third (vol. ii. p. 153) is a defense and explanation of the inner sense of the Bible, as from a Christia= n mystic's standpoint. Of course this would resemble Visishtadwaitism, which, like Christianity, ascribes personal attributes to the Universal Principle. As for the reference to the Preface, it seems that even when read in the dead-letter sense, the paragraph could only be said to reflect my personal opinion and not the Esoteric Doctrine.=20 A sceptic in my early life, I had sought and obtained through the Masters the full assurance of the existence of a principle (not Personal God)--"a boundless and fathomless ocean" of which my "soul" was a drop.=20 Like the Adwaitis, I made no difference between my Seventh Principle[ATMA] and the Universal Spirit, or Parabrahm; nor did, or do I believe in an individual, segregated spirit in me, as a something apart from the whole. And see, for proof, my remark about the "omnipotence of man's immortal spirit"--which would be a logical absurdity upon any theory of egoistic separation.=20 My mistake was that throughout the whole work I indifferently employed the words Parabrahm and God to express the same idea: a venial sin surely, when =3D=3D=3D message truncated =3D=3D=3D =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Dec 30 17:17:28 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99742 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 01:17:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 01:17:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO keymaster.look.ca) (207.136.80.9) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 01:17:27 -0000 Received: from [199.243.59.106] (helo=idirect.ca) by keymaster.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CkBPx-00048E-31 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:17:25 +0000 Message-ID: <41D4A96C.7040407@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:20:44 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <41D1E2A1.6090700@idirect.ca> <001001c4ed52$457eb710$6c789f3f@downunder> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on phi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.9 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World re Zakk's "Brotherhood & Truth" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Sorry, did I give the impression that I was being antagonistic? I tried not to create that impression. I was offering, I thought, objective, unemotional speculations on the topic of "brotherhood" and the word "brotherhood" as it's used on these lists, eg. No, I wasn't suggesting that the English language could do with some sort of overhaul. In any case, Zakk, I tend agree with your comments up to a point: though I don't see myself very often using the word "brotherhood" in its classic sense (as it was generally used in the 19th century) on these lists. I think I'd prefer some way around that word, however that detour may work out in practice by way of my speculative tangents. Which is to say, as I tend to see it, that I seem to have certain written mannerisms, for better or worse. What can I say ... Not to say that my mind is closed (I like to think) where different forms of expression are used. Which brings me to my recent "forms of expression in Theosophy" post (if one might see a connection there ...). Speculatively and even keeledly, I like to think, (rather than antagonistically, I'm hoping), Mauri PS I seem to think that it might be possible for one to be interpreted on these lists as both speculative and even keeled enough so that one generally would tend not to arouse too many antagonistic reactions. Not that I interpreted your reaction, Zakk, as antagonistic, exactly, (not that I haven't wondered about a few things), but I was wondering about how one might interpret (and how I might interpret) your tone in that post. Just wondering, mind you, rather than judging particularly. PPS Incidentally, Whitley Strieber wrote a book entitled "Communion." Not that I'm suggesting anything particularly. After all ... Zakk Duffany wrote: >>Zakk wrote, in part: > The term brother can be taken as a male. It can also > be defined as a fellow member of a race, profession, org., > etc. Brotherly can be defined as friendly versus a depicting > of a male. The intent from it's usage usually assists in the > defining. Although I do not have any issue with using another > term instead of brotherhood, I simply do not know of any > that is used. I think it may be a mind that is biased-based > that would take the term in a bias manner, no matter what > century one may be experiencing. In the past I have used > the term siblings versus brothers on many ocassions. To > incorporate that into the term siblinghood may appease > the sexually or gender orientated. I do not know. Until > another term is accepted and utilized in replacement of > brotherhood, how is one to refer to it? I would be quite > open to suggestions. I do not think that the students of > Theosophy would prefer eliminating the term brotherhood > from written material and replacing it with another. What > the term entails, and what is meant by it, is clearly expressed > in the writings. There may exist many terms in which an > individual may find biased or improper or something > similar. How many terms should be replaced or redefined > to satisfy all persons? Is it even possible? It would seem > easier to accept the meaning of the term in which it is > presented. It is not that I do not understand that in which > you saying, but if one word is justified in changing, why not > two? Or three? Or a hundred? I personally have no > preference to terms as long as the meaning is clear so > communication can be also. I am only looking at the > possible complications that can arise. > From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Dec 30 18:42:56 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 10868 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 02:42:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 02:42:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 02:42:54 -0000 Received: from [216.244.12.72] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CkCk8-0001iB-JM; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:42:49 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance:In-Reply-To; b=jU//j3h3sMoZE2ukjJD9cMJZY801PxUJQ1XVl8PVoBPFoMu1RvqKqWqnWErZpfNO; To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 18:42:07 -0800 Message-ID: <001501c4eee2$5a206ab0$480cf4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79f44a238ea56b411425f71bb36b6e1a56350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.65 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 216.244.12.72 Subject: RE: CONSCIOUSNESS and THOUGHT X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 30 2004 Re: CONSCIOUSNESS and THOUGHT Dear Friend: Some of these definitions may prove of help: Part I --- CONSCIOUSNESS and THOUGHT ------------------------------------------- 1 C O N S C I O U S N E S S=20 ---------------------=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 "Whatever plane our consciousness may be acting in, both we and the things belonging to that plane are, for the time being, our only realities. As we rise in the scale of development we perceive that during the stages through which we have passed we mistook shadows for realities, and the upward progress of the Ego is a series of progressive awakenings, each advance bringing with it the idea that now, at last, we have reached "reality;" bu= t only when we shall have reached to the absolute Consciousness, and blended our own with it, shall we be free from the delusions produced by Maya." S D I 40 [ see also: SD I 37-9 172 329 268 329fn GN 98-100' Trans 31 Pat 39-4= 1 SOME PRELIMINARY OBSERVATIONS:=20=20 1. FIRST. THE UNIVERSE IS EMBODIED CONSCIOUSNESS. For awareness (consciousness) there has to be an Observer, who, by definition remains uninvolved, unmoved and is therefore able to see and record all changes. [ see: "Proofs of the Hidden Self." WQJ Articles, I, p. 289 ] "To the stone belongs molecular consciousness, not consciousness as we know it, but only so called by analogy; to the plant belongs astral consciousness, or the dawn of sensation; to the animal belongs emotional consciousness, or the dawn of perception. As this faculty or principle becomes more and more fully developed and active, a new faculty begins to act--the human intellect, the lower manas, begins to awake and exercise its functions. The [ individual ]...has evolved far enough towards spiritual perception, to be able to recognize his lower principles as himself - ...This is self-consciousness or consciousness of self; and here the human stage is reached in the return of the monad from its journey to the confine= s of matter." WQJ Articles I p. 303-4 "SPIRIT IS UNIVERSAL, INDIVISIBLE, AND COMMON TO ALL...there are not many spirits, one for each man, but solely one spirit, which shines upon all men alike, finding as many souls--roughly speaking--as there are beings in the world. In man the spirit has a more complete instrument or assemblage of tools with which to work. This spiritual identity is the basis of the philosophy; upon it the whole structure rests..." Echoes, p. 50 2. SECOND, there has to be one or more fields of action.=20=20 [ See: "Three Planes of Human Life," WQJ Articles, I p. 294;=20=20=20 "The Sevenfold Division," WQJ Articles, I p. 298; Ocean, p. 23-24, 26; ] 3. THIRD, there has to be interaction, movement, a purpose, or cause, and a being which benefits from such changes by increments. [ see: "Remembering the Experiences of the Ego," WQJ Articles, I p. 292 ] Some experiences are called subjective and others, objective. But if we scrutinize the process we find that even the objective events that can be recorded as memory are all handled by the subjective Ego, and recorded by its process of concentrated attention, or will.=20=20 This presentation will consist of a number of a seemingly disjointed quotations, and it may require reference to a coherent presentation of the Theosophical philosophy as is done by Mme. Blavatsky in her THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY or Mr. Judge's THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY to acquire the usage of tha= t system of terms and ideas. "Our consciousness is one and not many, nor different from other consciousnesses. It is not waking consciousness or sleeping consciousness, or any other but consciousness itself. But THE ONE CONSCIOUSNESS OF EACH PERSON IS THE WITNESS OR SPECTATOR OF THE ACTIONS AND EXPERIENCES OF EVERY STATE WE ARE IN OR PASS THROUGH...[It] pierces up and down through all the states or planes of Being, and serves to uphold the memory--whether complet= e or incomplete--of each state's experiences."=20=09 [ quoted in W.Q.Judge -- Gita Notes, p. 99 ]=20=20 =09 "...[ considering ] the doctrine of Universal Evolution... the mineral, vegetable and animal forms each imprison a spark of the Divine, a portion o= f the indivisible Purusha [ Spirit ]. These sparks struggle to "return to th= e Father," or in other words to secure self-consciousness and at last come into the highest form, on Earth, that of man, where alone self-consciousnes= s is possible to them... Each spark of divinity has...millions of ages in which to accomplish its mission--that of obtaining complete self-consciousness while in the form of man...all depends on the individual's own will and efforts... This system is thus seen to be based upon the identity of Spiritual Being, and, under the name of "Universal Brotherhood," constitutes the basic idea...Purusha [Spirit] is the basis of all manifested objects...It interpenetrates everything everywhere. It is the reality of which, or upon which, those things called real by us are mere images. As Purusha reaches to and embraces all beings, they are all connected together; and in or on the plane where that Purusha is, there is a perfect consciousness of every act, thought, object, and circumstance, whether supposed to occur there, or on this plane, or any other. For below the spirit and above the intellect is a plane of consciousness in which experiences are noted, commonly called man's "spiritual nature;" this is frequently said to be as susceptible of culture as his body or his intellect. This upper plane is the real recorder of all sensations and experiences, although there are other registering planes. it is sometimes called the "subconscious mind."...The real object to be kept in view is to so open up or make porous the lower nature that the spiritual nature may shine through it and become the guide and ruler.... The real man, who is the Higher Self--being the spark of the Divine before alluded to--overshadows the visible being, which has the possibility of becoming united to that spark...it is always peaceful, unconcerned, blissful, and full of absolute knowledge. It continually partakes of the Divine state, being continually that state itself...The object of the student is to let the light of that spirit shine through the lower coverings." WQJ--Epitome, pp. 11-14 The quotations that follow offer reinforcement to an understanding of these fundamental ideas, which are also described in their operations. UNIVERSAL MIND -- UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS "The true student of Raja Yoga knows that everything has its origin in the mind; that even this universe is the passing before the Divine Mind of the images he desires to appear." WQJ ART II 560 "At the commencement of a great Manvantara [ great cycle of evolution ], Parabrahm [ the ABSOLUTE ] manifests as Mulaprakriti [ root-matter ] and then as the Logos ["Word"-thought--plan ]. This Logos is equivalent to the "Unconscious Universal Mind," etc., of Western Pantheists. It constitutes the Basis of the Subject-side of manifested Being, and is the source of all manifestations of individual consciousness. Mulaprakriti or Primordial Cosmic Substance, is the foundation of the Object-side of things--the basis of all objective evolution and Cosmogenesis. Force, then, does not emerge with Primordial Substance from Parabrahmic Latency. It is the transformation into energy of the supra-conscious thought of the Logos, infused, so to speak, into the objectivization of the latter out of potential latency in the One Reality.=20=20 Hence spring the wondrous LAWS OF MATTER...Force succeeds Mulaprakriti; but, minus Force, Mulaprakriti is for all practical intents and purposes non-existent." SD II 24-5 (see also M L 89-91) "...SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT, by means of which the Supreme Spirit can be discerned in all things...To attain it, the heart--that is, every part of the nature--must be fixed on the Spirit, meditation has to be constant, and the Spirit made the refuge or abiding-place...No particular theosophical classification for the divisions of nature has been given out... "inferior nature" [ to Krishna ] is only so, relatively. It is the phenomenal and transient which disappears into the superior at the end of a kalpa.=20=20 It is that part of God, or of the Self, which chose to assume the phenomena= l and transient position, but is, in essence, as great as the superior nature= . The inferiority is only relative; as soon as objective material, and subjective spiritual, worlds appear, the first-named has to be denominated inferior to the other, because the spiritual being the permanent base, it i= s in that sense superior; but in an absolute whole all is equal. [ Note: One could say that Manvantara-manifestation is characterized by th= e Sanskrit term Kamadeva -- that deity represents in time and space the reig= n of those forces peculiar to all beings which reflect the desire--kama, and the passionate aspect of each. Those being which are self-conscious have a= t this time the opportunity of seeing their own kamic nature as an aspect of the Universal, Eternal Man, of themselves. To perceive this desire-nature implies the fact that the Real man is separate from the mass of his desires= , can know them in detail, and can modify or adjust them. see Light on the Path, essay on KARMA ] Included in the inferior nature are all the visible, tangible, invisible an= d intangible worlds; it is what we call Nature. The invisible and intangibl= e are none the less actual..." Gita Notes 133 [ In the Secret Doctrine, HPB gives several 7-fold classifications we coul= d consider as "keys" to the 7-fold divisions of Nature, [ S D I 157; II 596 ] but there, she also states that we ought to consider the particular starting-point from which those are used.=20=20 Example: "The seven fundamental transformations of the globes or heavenly spheres, o= r rather their constituent particles of matter, is described as follows: 1) the homogeneous; 2) the aeriform and radiant (gaseous); 3) Curd-like (nebulous); 4) Atomic, Ethereal (beginning of motion, hence of differentiation); 5) Germinal, fiery, (differentiated, but composed of the germs only of the Elements, in their earliest states, they having seven states, when completely developed on our earth); 6) Four-fold, vapory (the future Earth); 7) Cold and depending (on the Sun for life and light)." S D, I 205-6 fn. [ On the 7 Planets of our Solar System. S D, I, 575 & 577 ] "...the Rishis, were the septiform personations=20=20 1) of the noumena of the intelligent Powers of nature;=20=20 2) of Cosmic Forces;=20=20 3) of celestial bodies;=20=20 4) of gods or Dhyan Chohans;=20=20 5) of psychic and spiritual powers;=20=20 6) of divine kings on earth (or the incarnations of the gods); and=20=20 7) of terrestrial heroes or men.=20=20 The knowledge of how to discern among these seven forms the one that is meant, belonged at all times to the Initiates..." S D, II 765=20=20 "This desire for a sentient life shows itself in everything, from an atom t= o a sun, and is a reflection of the Divine Thought propelled into objective existence, into a law that the Universe should exist...the real cause of that supposed desire, and of all existence, remains for ever hidden, and it= s first emanations are the most complete abstractions mind can conceive. [which]... must of necessity be postulated as the cause of the material Universe which presents itself to the senses and intellect...It is impossible to conceive of anything without a cause...metaphysical abstractions...are the only conceivable cause of physical concretions." S D I 44-5 "...Motion, the one life, or Jivatma..." S D I 50 "THE MATTER-MOVING NOUS, THE ANIMATING SOUL, IMMANENT IN EVERY ATOM, MANIFESTED IN MAN, latent in the stone, has different degrees of power; an= d this pantheistic idea of a general spirit-Soul pervading all Nature is the oldest of all the philosophical notions." S D I 51=09 "...Occultism, unlike modern Science, maintains that every atom of matter, when once differentiated, becomes endowed with its own kind of Consciousness. Every cell in the human body (as in every animal) is endowe= d with its own peculiar discrimination, instinct, and, speaking relatively, with intelligence."=09 (see HPB Art. II, 20-2) TRANS 25 =20 CONSCIOUSNESS - FREE-WILL "Every atom is endowed with and moved by intelligence, and is conscious in its own degree, on its own plane of development. This is a glimpse of the One Life...selfishness is the curse of I-ness..." WQJ ART I 29 "...Time...[is] the panoramic succession of our states of consciousness..." S D I 44 "The "Absolute Consciousness,"..."behind" phenomena...is only termed unconsciousness in the absence of any element of personality...transcends human conception...Only the liberated Spirit is able to faintly realize the nature of the source whence it sprung and whither it must eventually return...we can but bow in ignorance before the awful mystery of Absolute Being...the Finite cannot conceive the Infinite..." S D I 51 "Every man has a god within, a direct ray from the Absolute, the celestial ray from the One..." TRANS 53 "Free-will can only exist in a man who has both mind and consciousness, which act and make him perceive things both within and without himself." "Consciousness is a condition of the monad as a result of embodiment in matter and the dwelling in a physical form." WQJ ART I 29 "Esoteric philosophy teaches that EVERYTHING LIVES AND IS CONSCIOUS, but no= t that all life and consciousness are similar to those of human or even anima= l beings. Life we look on as the "the one form of existence," manifesting in what is called matter; or, as in man, what, incorrectly separating them we name Spirit, Soul and Matter. Matter is the vehicle for the manifestation or soul on this plane of existence, and soul is the vehicle on a higher plane for the manifestation of spirit, and those three are a trinity synthesized by Life, which pervades them all." SD I 49 [see M L 89-91 on development of consciousness in the Life-Atom ] [ see SD I 174-5 fn on the nature and necessity for the Monad ] =20 MIND -- ILLUSION -- TIME -- EVOLUTION "Mind is a name given to the sum of the states of Consciousness grouped under Thought, Will, and Feeling. During deep sleep, ideation ceases of th= e physical plane, and memory is in abeyance; thus for the time-being "Mind i= s not," because the organ through which the Ego manifests ideation and memory on the material plane has temporarily ceased to function. A noumenon can become a phenomenon on any plane of existence only by manifesting on that plane through an appropriate basis or vehicle...The Ah-hi (Dhyan-Chohans) are the collective hosts of spiritual beings--the Angelic Hosts of Christianity...--who are the vehicle for the manifestation of the divine or universal though and will. They are the Intelligent Forces that give to an= d enact in Nature her "laws," while themselves acting according to laws imposed upon them in a similar manner by still higher Powers...This hierarchy of spiritual Beings, through which the Universal Mind comes into action, is like an army--a "Host," SD I 38=20=20=09 "Maya or illusion is an element which enters into all finite things, for everything that exists has only a relative, not an absolute, reality, since the appearance which the hidden noumenon assumes for any observer depends upon his power of cognition...=09 Nothing is permanent except the one hidden absolute existence which contain= s in itself the noumena of all realities. The existence belonging to every plane of being up to the highest Dhyan Chohans, are, in degree, of the nature of shadows...but all things are relatively real, for the cognizer is also a reflection, and the things cognized are therefore as real to him as himself. What ever reality things possess must be looked for it them befor= e or after they have passed like a flash through the material world; but we cannot cognize any such existence directly, so long as we have sense instruments which bring only material existence into the field of our consciousness. Whatever plane our consciousness may be acting in, both we and the things belonging to that plane are, for the time being, our only realities. As we rise in the scale of development we perceive that during the stages through which we have passed we mistook shadows for realities, and the upward march of the Ego is a series of progressive awakenings, each advance bringing with it the idea that now, at last, we have reached "reality;" but only when we shall have reached the absolute Consciousness, and blended our own with it, shall we be free from the delusions produced b= y Maya." SD I 39-40 [ see also Echoes, p. 41-2 ] =20 TIME AND CONSCIOUSNESS "Time is only an illusion produced by the succession of our states of consciousness as we travel through eternal duration, and it does not exist where no consciousness exists in which the illusion can be produced; but "lies asleep." The present is only a mathematical line which divides that part of eternal duration which we call the future, from that part which we call the past. Nothing on earth has real duration, for nothing remains without change--or the same--for the billionth part of second; and the sensation we have of the actuality of the division of "time" known as the present, comes from the blurring of that momentary glimpse, or succession o= f glimpses, of things that our senses give us, as those things pass from the region ideals which we call the future, to the region of memories that we name the past...The real person or thing does not consist solely of what is seen at any particular moment, but is composed of the sum of all its variou= s and changing conditions from its appearance in the material form to its disappearance from the earth. It is these "sum totals" that exist from eternity in the "future," and pass by degrees through matter, to exist for eternity in the "past."...persons and things, which, dropping out of the to-be into the has-been, out of the future into the past--present momentarily to our senses a cross-section, as it were, of their total selves, as they pass through time and space (as matter) on their way from one eternity to another; and these tow constitute that "duration" in which alone anything has true existence, were our senses but able to cognize it." SD I 37 UNIVERSAL EVOLUTION "The Secret Doctrine teaches the progressive development of everything, worlds as well as atoms; and this stupendous development has neither conceivable beginning nor imaginable end. Our "Universe" is only one of an infinite series of Universes, all of them "Sons of Necessity," because link= s in the great Cosmic chain of Universes, each one standing in the relation o= f an effect as regards its predecessor, and being a cause as regards its successor. The appearance and disappearance of the Universe are pictured as an outbreathing and inbreathing of "the Great Breath," which is eternal, and which, being Motion, is one of the three aspects of the Absolute--Abstract Space and Duration being the other two..."The Past time is the Present time= , as also the Future, which, though it has not come into existence, still is..." SD I 43 =20 "Every living creature, of whatever description, was, is, or will become a human being in one or another Manvantara."=20=20 HPB-- Trans. 23 "Esoteric philosophy teaches that everything lives and is conscious, but no= t that all life and consciousness are similar to those of human or even anima= l beings. Life we look upon as "the one form of existence," manifesting in what is called matter; or, as in man, incorrectly separating them, we name Spirit, Soul and Matter. Matter is the vehicle for the manifestation of soul on this plane of existence, and soul is the vehicle on a higher plane for the manifestation of spirit, and these three are a trinity synthesized by Life, which pervades them all. The idea of universal life is one of those ancient conceptions which are returning to the human mind in this century as a consequence of its liberation from anthropomorphic theology." S D I 49 THE BRAIN "We might properly speak, then, of the memory of the end-organ of vision or of hearing, of the memory of the spinal cord and of the different so-called 'centers' of reflex action belonging to the chords of the memory of the medulla oblongata, the cerebellum, etc." This is the essence of Occult teaching...every organ in our body has its own memory. For it is endowed with a consciousness "of its own kind," every cell must of necessity have also a memory of its own kind, as likewise its own psychic and noetic action. Responding to the touch of both a physical and a metaphysical Force, the impulse given by the psychic (or psycho-molecular) Force will ac= t from without within; while that of the noetic (shall we call it Spiritual-dynamical ?) Force works from within without. For, as our body i= s the covering of the inner "principles," soul, mind, life, etc., so the molecule or the cell is the body in which dwell its principles," the (to ou= r senses and comprehension) immaterial atoms which compose that cell. The cell's activity and behavior are determined by its being propelled either inwardly or outwardly, by the noetic or the psychic Force, the former havin= g no relation to the physical cells proper. Therefore while the latter act under the unavoidable law of the conservation and correlation of physical energy, the atoms--being psycho-spiritual, not physical units--act under laws of their own, just as Professor Ladd's "Unit-Being," which is our "Mind-Ego," does, in his very philosophical and scientific hypothesis. =20 Every human organ and each cell in the latter has a keyboard of its own, like that of a piano, only that it registers and emits sensations instead o= f sounds. Every key contains the potentiality of good or bad, of producing harmony or disharmony. This depends on the impulse given and the combination produced; on the force of the touch of the artist at work, a "double-faced Unity," indeed...For the whole of man is guided by this double-faced Entity. If the impulse comes from the "Wisdom above," the Force applied being noetic or spiritual, the results will be actions worthy of the divine propeller...It is the function of the physical, lower mind to act upon the physical organs and their cells; but, it is the higher mind alone which can influence the atoms interacting in those cells, which interaction is alone capable of exciting the brain, via the spinal "center" cord, to a mental representation of spiritual ideas far beyond any objects on this material plane. The phenomena of divine consciousness have to be regarded as activities of our mind on another and a higher plane, working through something less substantial than the moving molecules of the brain...Occultism teaches that the liver and the spleen-cells are the most subservient to the action of ou= r "personal" mind, the heart being the organ par excellence through which the "Higher" Ego acts--through the Lower Self." HPB-- "Psychic and Noetic Action" -- HPB Art. II 22-3 "...the plastic power of the imagination is much stronger in some persons than in others. The mind is dual in its potentiality; It is physical and metaphysical. The higher part of the mind is connected with the spiritual soul or Buddhi, the lower with the animal soul, the Kama principle.=20=20 There are persons who never think with the higher faculties of their mind a= t all; those who do so are the minority and are thus, in a way, beyond, if not above, the average of human kind. The idiosyncrasy of the person determines in which "principle" of the mind the thinking is done, as also the faculties of a preceding life, and sometimes the heredity of the physical. This is why it is so very difficult for a materialist--the metaphysical portion of whose brain is almost atrophied--to raise himself, or for one who is naturally spiritually minded, to descend to the level of the matter-of-fact vulgar thought...[ Thinking to be developed in the highe= r mind ? ].. Certainly it can be developed, but only with great difficulty, a firm determination, and through much self-sacrifice...This difference depends simply on the innate power of the mind to think on the higher or on the lower plane, with the astral...or with the physical brain.=20=20 Great intellectual powers are often no proof of, but are the impediments to spiritual and right conceptions...The person who is endowed with this faculty of thinking about even the most trifling things from the higher plane of thought has, by virtue of that gift which he possesses, a plastic power of formation, so to say, in his very imagination...his thought will b= e so far more intense that the thought of an ordinary person, that by his ver= y intensity it obtains the power of creation...thought is an energy. This energy in its action disturbs the atoms of the astral atmosphere around us...the rays of thought have the same potentiality for producing forms in the astral atmosphere as the sun rays have with regard to a lens. Every thought so evolved with energy from the brain, creates nolens volens a shape." HPB-- Dialogues -- HPB Art. II 42-3 "...the human brain is simply the canal between two planes--the psycho-spiritual and the material--through which every abstract and metaphysical idea filters from the Manasic down to the lower human consciousness. Therefore the ideas about the infinite and the absolute are not, nor can they be, within our brain capacities. They can be faithfully mirrored only by our Spiritual consciousness, thence to be more of less faintly projected on to the tables of our perceptions on this plane. Thus while the records of even important events are often obliterated from our memory, not the most trifling action of our lives can disappear from the "Soul's" memory, because it is no memory for it, but an ever-present realit= y on the plane which lies outside our conceptions of space and time. "Man is the measure of all things," said Aristotle; and surely he did not mean by man, the form of flesh, bones and muscles ? ... As our world is mostly formed of imperceptible beings which are the real constructors of its continents, so likewise is man." HPB--Memory in the Dying-- HPB Art. II 378-9 "Occult philosophy reconciles the absurdity of postulating in the manifeste= d Universe an active Mind without an organ, with that worse absurdity, an objective Universe evolved as everything else in it, by blind chance, by giving this Universe an organ of thought, a "brain." The latter, though no= t objective to our senses, is none the less existing; it is to be found in the Entity called Kosmos (Adam Kadmon in the Kabbalah). As in the Microcos= m Man, so in the Macrocosm, or the Universe. Every organ is a sentient entity, and every particle of matter or substance, from the physical molecule up to the spiritual atom, is a cell, a nerve center, which communicates."=20 (see Lucifer, Vol. 7, p. 476fn) "This is precisely what occult philosophy claims; our Ego is a ray of the Universal Mind, individualized for the space of a cosmic life-cycle, during which space of time it gets experience in almost numberless reincarnations or rebirths, after which it returns to its Parent-Source. =20 The Occultist would call the "Higher Ego" the immortal Entity, whose shadow and reflection is the human Manas, the mind limited by its physical senses...In the course of natural evolution our "brain-mind" will be replaced by a finer organism, and helped by the 6th and the 7th senses. Even now, there are pioneer minds who have developed these senses." Theos. Art. & Notes, p. 208 "Our "memory" is but a general agent, and its "tablets," with their indelible impressions, but a figure of speech; the "brain-tablets" serve only as a upadhi or a vahan (basis or vehicle) for reflecting at a given moment the memory of one or another thing. The records of past events, of every minutest action, and of passing thoughts, in fact, are realty impressed on the imperishable waves of the Astral Light, around us and everywhere, not in the brain alone; and these mental pictures, images, and sounds, pass from these waves via the consciousness of the personal Ego or Mind (the lower Manas) whose grosser essence is astral, into the "cerebral reflectors," so to say, of our brain, whence they are delivered by the psychic to the sensuous consciousness. This at every moment of the day, an= d even during sleep." Theos. Art. & Notes, p. 209 "...Genius--an abnormal aptitude of mind--that develops and grows, or the physical brain, is vehicle, which becomes...fitter to receive and manifest from within outwardly the innate and divine nature of man's over-soul."=09 HPB-- "Genius" -- HPB Art. II 119 =09 ------------------------------------------- More on Part II to follow Best wishes Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: christinaleestemaker=20 Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 6:45 AM To:=20 Subject: Re: Judge=20 R----g---ding wrote: And is not it that we(all people) just have had the "Manna" above the animal to use that and not to stay in a state of the instincts? Also we need to use the lower thinking power, that brings us from the=20 state of the animal with brains, to the human and what the Theosophy=20 is meaning in this, is to raise up from that state to the higher=20 thinking power, the higher mind that works without the lower desires=20 of common things to a state of the human, which lives out of the=20 great sligher of mind "the lower thinking power and that has=20 nothing to do with NOT thinking AT ALL !!!"=20 In the contrary it just have to do with a double kind of thinking but in a Higher way. That people don't understand, that is not the faillure of the= =20 Theosophy, but of the ones are not capable to understand!! CUT From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Dec 30 18:43:54 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94784 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 02:43:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 02:43:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 02:43:53 -0000 Received: from [216.244.12.72] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CkCko-0001iB-Bq; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:43:48 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance; b=W/bGa9I4xnarImWl4+mlg8spUKTdrn5sdtrrW6L1jfUerFd3QRsd1jowTwZB4VMf; To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 18:42:07 -0800 Message-ID: <001601c4eee2$73ec92c0$480cf4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79555e249d89753270c9afbc484e2f8446350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.65 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 216.244.12.72 Subject: PART 2 CONSCIOUSNESS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Part 2 CONSCIOUSNESS and THOUGHT ------------------------------------------------- CONSCIOUSNESS AND LIFE "Esoteric philosophy teaches that everything lives and is conscious, but no= t that all life and consciousness are similar to those of human or even anima= l beings. Life we look upon as "the one form of existence," manifesting in what is called matter; or, as in man, incorrectly separating them, we name Spirit, Soul and Matter. Matter is the vehicle for the manifestation of soul on this plane of existence, and soul is the vehicle on a higher plane for the manifestation of spirit, and these three are a trinity synthesized by Life, which pervades them all. The idea of universal life is one of those ancient conceptions which are returning to the human mind in this century as a consequence of its liberation from anthropomorphic theology." S D I 49 "The Secret Doctrine teaches the progressive development of everything, worlds as well as atoms; and this stupendous development has neither conceivable beginning nor imaginable end. Our "Universe" is only one of an infinite series of Universes, all of them "Sons of Necessity," because link= s in the great Cosmic chain of Universes, each one standing in the relation o= f an effect as regards its predecessor, and being a cause as regards its successor. The appearance and disappearance of the Universe are pictured as an outbreathing and inbreathing of "the Great Breath," which is eternal, and which, being Motion, is one of the three aspects of the Absolute--Abstract Space and Duration being the other two..."The Past time is the Present time= , as also the Future, which, though it has not come into existence, still is..." SD I 43 FREE WILL IN NATURE AND IN MAN "Free-will can only exist in a man who has both mind and consciousness, which act and make him perceive things both within and without himself." "Consciousness is a condition of the monad as a result of embodiment in matter and the dwelling in a physical form." =09 WQJ ART I 29 [see M L 89-91 on development of consciousness in the Life-Atom ] [ see SD I 174-5 fn on the nature and necessity for the Monad ] "Every atom is endowed with and moved by intelligence, and is conscious in its own degree, on its own plane of development. This is a glimpse of the One Life... selfishness is the curse of separateness..." WQJ ART I 29 "Every man has a god within, a direct ray from the Absolute, the celestial ray from the One..." TRANS 53 "...Time...[is] the panoramic succession of our states of consciousness..." S D I 44 "The "Absolute Consciousness,"..."behind" phenomena...is only termed unconsciousness in the absence of any element of personality...transcends human conception...Only the liberated Spirit is able to faintly realize the nature of the source whence it sprung and whither it must eventually return...we can but bow in ignorance before the awful mystery of Absolute Being...the Finite cannot conceive the Infinite..." S D I 51 "the one free force acts, helped in this by that portion of its essence which we call imprisoned force, or material molecules. The worker within, the inherent force, ever tends to unite with its parent essence without; and thus, the Mother acting within, causes the Web to contract; and the Father acting without, to expand. Science calls this gravitation; Occultists, the work of the universal Life-Force, which radiates from that Absolute and Unknowable FORCE which is outside of all Space and Time. This is the work of eternal Evolution and involution, or expansion and contraction. [ Web cooling ]...it begins when the imprisoned force and intelligence inherent in every atom of differentiated as well as of homogeneous matter arrives at a point when both become the slaves of a higher intelligent Force whose mission is to guide and shape it. It is the Force which we call the divine Free-Will, represented by the Dhyani-Buddhas. When the centrepetal and centrifugal forces of life an= d being are subjected by the one nameless Force which brings order in disorder, and establishes harmony in Chaos--then it begins cooling...Every form, we are told, is built in accordance with the model traced for it in the Eternity and reflected in the DIVINE MIND. There are hierarchies of "Builders of form," and series of forms and degrees, from the highest to th= e lowest. While the former are shaped under the guidance of the "Builders," the gods, "Cosmocratores;" the latter are fashioned by the Elementals or Nature Spirits." Trans 128-9 FORCE - ENERGY UNIVERSAL LIFE "The universal force cannot be regarded as a conscious force as we understand the word consciousness, because it would immediately become a personal god. It is only that which is enclosed in a form, a limitation of matter, which is conscious of itself on this plane. This Free Force or Will, which is limitless and absolute, cannot be said to act understandingly, but it is the one and sole immutable Law of Life and Being= . Fohat, therefore, is spoken of as the synthetic motor power of all imprisoned life-forces and the medium between the absolute and conditioned Force. It is a link, just as Manas is the connecting link between the gros= s matter of the physical body and the divine Monad which animates it, but is powerless to act upon the former directly." Trans 134 (see "Psychic and Noetic Action - HPB Art. II 7-23) MANAS -- MIND -- SOUL "(e) Manas -- a dual principle in its functions. Mind, Intelligence: which is the higher human mind, whose light, or radiation links the MONAD, for the lifetime, to the mortal man. The future state and karmic destiny of man depend on whether Manas gravitates more downward to Kama rupa, the seat of the animal passions, or upwards to Buddhi, the Spiritual Ego. In the latter case, the higher consciousness of the individual Spiritual aspirations of mind (Manas), assimilating Buddhi, are absorbed by it and form the (Ego), which goes into Devachanic bliss. (f) Buddhi. The Spiritual Soul. The vehicle of pure universal spirit= . (g) Atma. Spirit. One with the Absolute, as its radiation. KEY, p. 92 "Mind is a name given to the sum of the states of Consciousness grouped under Thought, Will, and Feeling. During deep sleep, ideation ceases of th= e physical plane, and memory is in abeyance; thus for the time-being "Mind i= s not," because the organ through which the Ego manifests ideation and memory on the material plane has temporarily ceased to function. A noumenon can become a phenomenon on any plane of existence only by manifesting on that plane through an appropriate basis or vehicle...The Ah-hi (Dhyan-Chohans) are the collective hosts of spiritual beings--the Angelic Hosts of Christianity,,,--who are the vehicle for the manifestation of the divine or universal though and will. They are the Intelligent Forces that give to an= d enact in Nature her "laws," while themselves acting according to laws imposed upon them in a similar manner by still higher Powers...This hierarchy of spiritual Beings, through which the Universal Mind comes into action, is like an army--a "Host," SD I 38=20=20 "..."Mind" is manas, or rather its lower reflection, which whenever it disconnects itself, for the time being, with kama, becomes the guide of the highest mental faculties, and is the organ of the free-will in physical man...."=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 HPB Art., Vol. II, p. 13 "The matter-moving Nous, the animating Soul, immanent in every atom, manifested in man, latent in the stone, has different degrees of power; an= d this pantheistic idea of a general spirit-Soul pervading all Nature is the oldest of all the philosophical notions." S D I 51=09 There is a dual element in the mind of man. HPB wrote on this as follows: "this means that he would have to admit a lower (animal), and a higher (or divine) mind in man, of what is known in Occultism as the "personal" and th= e "impersonal" Egos. For, between the psychic and the noetic, between the personality and the individuality there exists the same abyss as between a "Jack the Ripper," and a holy Buddha...These two we distinguish as the Higher Manas (Mind or Ego) and the Kama-Manas, i.e., the rational, but earthy or physical intellect of man, incased in, and bound by. matter, therefore subject to the influence of the latter: the all-conscious Self, that which reincarnates periodically--verily the Word made flesh--and which is always the same, while its reflected "Double," changing with every new incarnation and personality, is, therefore, conscious but for a life-period= . The latter "principle," is the Lower Self, or that which manifesting throug= h our organic system, acting on this plane of illusion, imagines itself the Ego Sum, and thus falls into what Buddhist philosophy brands as the "heresy of separateness." The former, we term Individuality, the latter Personality." HPB "Psychic and Noetic Action" HPB Articles II pp , 9-10, 20-1 MATTER -- SUBSTANCE Q'LIPPOTH (Heb.) or Klippoth [Glos 178]. The world of Demons or Shells...Q'lippoth contains the matter of which stars, planets, and even me= n are made, shows that Samael with his legions is simply chaotic, turbulent matter, which is used in its finer state by spirits to robe themselves in. For speaking of the "vesture" or form (rupa) of the incarnating Egos, it is said in the Occult Catechism that they, the Manasaputra or Sons of Wisdom, use for the consolidation of their forms, in order to descend into lower spheres, the dregs of Swabhavat, or that plastic matter which is throughout Space, in other words, primordial ilus. And these dregs are what the Egyptians have called Typhon and modern Europeans Satan, Samael, etc..." Glos 268-9 [ see also Klippoth Glos. pp. 178-9 ] =20 SPIRITUAL SUBSTANCE "SUDDA SATWA (Sk.) A substance not subject to the qualities of matter; a luminiferous and (to us) invisible substance, of which the bodies of the gods and highest Dhyanis are formed. Philosophically, Suddha Satwa is a conscious state of spiritual Ego-ism rather than any essence." T. GLOSSARY, p. 311 MAYA -- ILLUSION "Maya or illusion is an element which enters into all finite things, for everything that exists has only a relative, not an absolute, reality, since the appearance which the hidden noumenon assumes for any observer depends upon his power of cognition...=09 NOTHING IS PERMANENT EXCEPT THE ONE HIDDEN ABSOLUTE EXISTENCE which contain= s in itself the noumena of all realities. The existence belonging to every plane of being up to the highest Dhyan Chohans, are, in degree, of the nature of shadows...but all things are relatively real, for the cognizer is also a reflection, and the things cognized are therefore as real to him as himself. Whatever reality things possess must be looked for it them before or after they have passed like a flash through the material world; but we cannot cognize any such existence directly, so long as we have sense instruments which bring only material existence into the field of our consciousness. Whatever plane our consciousness may be acting in, both we and the things belonging to that plane are, for the time being, our only realities. As we rise in the scale of development we perceive that during the stages through which we have passed we mistook shadows for realities, and THE UPWARD MARCH OF THE EGO IS A SERIES OF PROGRESSIVE AWAKENINGS, each advance bringing with it the idea that now, at last, we have reached "reality;" but only when we shall have reached the absolute Consciousness, and blended our own with it, shall we be free from the delusions produced b= y Maya." S D I 39-40 [ see also Echoes, p. 41-2 ] MONAD "MONAD (Gr.) The Unity, the one; but in Occultism it often means the unified triad, Atma-Buddhi-Manas, or the duad, Atma-Buddhi, that immortal part of man which reincarnates in the lower kingdoms, and gradually progresses through them to Man and then to the final goal--Nirvana.=20 [see SD I pp. 173-4 footnotes] T. Glossary, p. 216 =20 "Metaphysically speaking, it is of course an absurdity to talk of the "development" of a Monad, or to say that it becomes "Man."...a Monad cannot either progress or develop, or even be affected by the changes of states it passes through. It is not of this world or plane, and may be compared only to an indestructible star of divine light and fire, thrown down on to our Earth as a plank of salvation for the personalities in which it indwells. It is for the latter to cling to it; and thus partaking of its divine nature, obtain immortality. Left to itself the Monad will cling to no one; but, like the "plank," be drifted away to another incarnation by the unresting current of evolution." SD I 174-5 fn. "...the whole secret of Life is in the unbroken series of its manifestations: whether in, or apart from, the physical body...yet it is itself part and parcel of that Eternity; for life alone can understand life... It is Jiva, the Monad in conjunction with Manas, or rather its aroma--that which remains from each personality, when worthy, and hangs fro= m Atma-Buddhi, the Flame, by the thread of life." SD I 238 PERCEIVER "To the perceiver on any plane, perceptions are objective to him; on = a higher plane than this, would they not be his "physics," although metaphysical to us ? From our plane, that which is metaphysical becomes physical when embodied." FRIENDLY PHILOS. p. 78 "EVERY ONE OF US IS A PERCEIVER, just as much a Perceiver as we ever were o= r ever will be. So is every atom of our body the perceiver. But we look directly upon ideas; the lives below man look directly upon sensation. We say waking, dreaming, sleeping, because our attention has not been directed to the state of nature beyond life or man ass immortal. But there are othe= r names for these states of consciousness. Think of the mineral kingdom as a state of consciousness, and the forms built in that state. Think of the animal kingdom as life in a given state of consciousness with the appropriate forms built in them. Now we--in the state called the Thinker, which is our natural state--are no= t any the less the Perceiver, because we are also at the same time the Thinke= r and the being which feels. But neither are we the Thinker pure and simple, nor are we the creature that is the experiencer of effects pure and simple=3D--nor are we the Perceiver pure and simple. It is impossible to dissociate the three. If a man were in the state called the Perceiver, and if he were in that state pure and simple, all this that is a mystery to us would be just as objective in the spiritual sense as we here and now are objective to each other in the "sense use" of the term." [J.G.] "QUESTIONS ANSWERED AT AN INFORMAL=20 OCEAN CLASS" T. MVT., Nov. 1952. "As to the "we," there is but one "we," or perceiver, who perceives on any plane through the sheaths evolved by him on each plane; his perceptions on any plane will depend on the quality of the sheath or vehicle. Atma (spirit) or consciousness alone, is what remains after the subtraction of the sheaths. It is the ONLY witness--a synthesizing unity. On this plane--and this means during waking consciousness or its dream effects--the perceiver knows only what it knows on this plane (generally speaking), (49) and through the ignorance of the Real, involves itself in the cause and effect of physical nature, identifying itself with body and sensations, and looking at other human beings in the same light. This is a wrong attitude of mind. The "we," at this end, is the identification of the perceiver wit= h this plane's perceptions--a misconception of the perceiver, a dream--a play--in which the perceiver is so involved as to have lost sight and memor= y of his real life. The mind is both "carrier" and "translator" of both lower and higher self; the attitude determines the quality and kind of action, for one will act according to the attitude of mind firmly held. The great and incalculable value of acting for and as the Supreme is that there is nothing higher in the way of attitude, and this endeavor must by its very nature bring about the best results. What moves the "mind" this way or that is usually desire for the attraction= s of matter, and self-interest in them; these then move and control the mind through the brain. "We," the Perceiver, do not perceive anything but the "ideas" which the senses and organs present. He is not fully awake on this plane; sometimes he gets partly wakened, but drops off to sleep again, lulled by the sounds and memories of his dream; sometimes "bad dreams" awake him; sometimes he is awakened by the voices of those who are awake. The "Real" and the "unreal," the "fleeting" and the "ever-lasting" are term= s which will be more fully understood if looked at from the point of view of the Perceiver. This is the attitude of mind we should hold."=09 Friendly Philosopher 48-8 =20 ANTASKARANA (Sk.) or Antah'karana..."understanding"... "the internal instrument, the Soul, formed by the thinking principle and egoism" ... the Occultists explain it as the path or bridge between the Higher and the Lower Manas, the divine Ego, and the personal Soul of man. It serves as a medium of communication between the two, and conveys from th= e Lower to the Higher Ego all those personal impressions and thoughts of men which can, by their nature, be assimilated and stored by the undying Entity= , and be thus made immortal with its, these being the only elements of the evanescent Personality that survive the death and time. It thus stands to reason that only that which is noble spiritual and divine in man can testif= y in Eternity to his having lived."=20 T. GLOSSARY, p. 23-4 PERFECTION OF CONSCIOUSNESS IN THE ADEPT "The word Adept signifies proficiency, and is not uncommon...A Mahatma is not only an Adept, but much more...maha, great, and atma, soul--hence Great Soul...a perfected human being, one who has attained to the state often described by mystics and held by scientific men to be an impossibility, whe= n time and space are no obstacles to sight, to action, to knowledge or to consciousness...and also to possess information of a decidedly practical character concerning the laws of nature, including that mystery for science--the meaning, operation and constitution of life itself--and concerning the genesis of this planet as well as the races upon it." WQJ--Echoes, p. 23 HIGHER ASPECT OF THE LOWER MANAS "..."Mind" is manas, or rather its lower reflection, which whenever it disconnects itself, for the time being, with kama, becomes the guide of the highest mental faculties, and is the organ of the free-will in physical man...."=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 HPB ARTICLES, Vol. II, p. 13 ".THE ONE FREE FORCE acts, helped in this by that portion of its essence which we call imprisoned force, or material molecules. The worker within, the inherent force, ever tends to unite with its parent essence without; and thus, the Mother acting within, causes the Web to contract; and the Father acting without, to expand. Science calls this gravitation; Occultists, the work of the universal Life-Force, which radiates from that Absolute and Unknowable FORCE which is outside of all Space and Time. This is the work of eternal Evolution and involution, or expansion and contraction. [ Web cooling ]...it begins when the imprisoned force and intelligence inherent in every atom of differentiated as well as of homogeneous matter arrives at a point when both become the slaves of a higher intelligent Force whose mission is to guide and shape it. It is the Force which we call THE DIVINE FREE-WILL, represented by the Dhyani-Buddhas. When the centrepetal and centrifugal forces of life and being are subjected by the one nameless Force which brings order in disorder, and establishes harmony in Chaos--then it begins cooling...Every form, we are told, is built in accordance with the model traced for it in the Eternity and reflected in the DIVINE MIND. There are hierarchies of "Builders of form," and series of forms and degrees, from the highest to th= e lowest. While the former are shaped under the guidance of the "Builders," the gods, "Cosmocratores;" the latter are fashioned by the Elementals or Nature Spirits."=09 TRANS 128-9 "The universal force cannot be regarded as a conscious force as we understand the word consciousness, because it would immediately become a personal god. It is only that which is enclosed in a form, a limitation of matter, which is conscious of itself on this plane. This Free Force or Will, which is limitless and absolute, cannot be said to act understandingly, but it is the one and sole immutable Law of Life and Being= . Fohat, therefore, is spoken of as the synthetic motor power of all imprisoned life-forces and the medium between the absolute and conditioned Force. It is a link, just as Manas is the connecting link between the gros= s matter of the physical body and the divine Monad which animates it, but is powerless to act upon the former directly." TRANS 134 (see "Psychic and Noetic Action - HPB ART II 7-23) "...Buddhi and Atma...These higher principles are entirely inactive on our plane, and the higher Ego (Manas) itself is more or less dormant during the waking of the physical man....So dormant are the Spiritual faculties, because the Ego is so trammeled by matter, that It can hardly give all its attention to man's actions, even should the latter commit sins for which that Ego--when reunited with its lower Manas--will have to suffer conjointl= y in the future. It is...the impressions projected into the physical man by this Ego which constitute what we call "conscience;" and in proportion as the personality, the lower Soul (or Manas), unites itself to its higher consciousness, or EGO, does the action of the latter upon the life of morta= l man become more marked." TRANS 62-3 =20 "...it is the higher Manas illuminated by Buddhi; the principle of self-consciousness, the "I-am-I"...It is THE KARANA-SARIRA, THE IMMORTAL MAN, WHICH PASSES FROM ONE INCARNATION TO ANOTHER." TRANS 63 "There is a sort of conscious telegraphic communication going on incessantly, day and night, between the physical brain and the inner man...the consciousness of the sleeper is not active but passive. The inner man, however, the real Ego, acts independently during the sleep of th= e body...Read "Karmic Visions" [ HPB ART I, 382 ]...and note the description of the real Ego, sitting as a spectator of the life of the hero..." TRANS 64-5=09 "...the Logos or Word is called incarnate wisdom. "Light shining in darkness." The distinction lies between the immovable or eternal immutable All, and the movable Speech or Logos, i.e., the periodical and manifested. It can relate to the universal and the manifested. It can relate to the Universal, and to the individual mind, to Mahat, or to the Higher Manas, or even to the lower, the Kama Manas or Brain-Mind. Because that which is desire, instinctive impulse in the lower, becomes thought in the Higher. The former finds expression in acts, the latter in words.=20=20 ESOTERICALLY, THOUGHT IS MORE RESPONSIBLE AND PUNISHABLE THAN ACT. But exoterically it is the reverse. Therefore, in ordinary human law, an assault is more severely punished than the thought or intention, i.e., the threat, whereas Karmically it is the contrary." TRANS 142 ATTUNING ONE'S CONSCIOUSNESS TO THE 7 CHORDS "...Whenever you are able to attune your consciousness to any of the seven chords of 'Universal Consciousness,' those chords that run along the sounding-board of Kosmos, vibrating from one Eternity to another; when you have studied thoroughly 'the music of the Spheres [the 7 principles of Nature and of man and their correlations]," then only will you become quite free to share your knowledge with those with whom it is safe to do so...Do not give out the great Truths that are the inheritance of the future Races, to our present generation. Do not attempt to unveil the secret of being an= d non-being to those unable to see the hidden meaning of Apollo's HEPTACHORD--the lyre of the radiant god, in each of the seven strings of which dwelleth the Spirit, Soul and Astral body of the Kosmos, whose shell only has now fallen into the hands of Modern Science..." SD I 167 CONSCIOUS THOUGHT CONTROL "You will always find victory over evil thoughts most practicable if they are grappled with on first appearance and before making headway. It is for their reception and not for their appearance that one is responsible..."I cannot prevent birds from flying over my head, but I can prevent their making nests in my hair." There is much in this."=09 WQJ--PRACTICAL OCCULTISM, p. 68 DREAMS AND DREAMING "In the dream state we lose all knowledge of the objects which while awake we thought real and proceed to suffer and enjoy in that new state. [ see S= D I 47 ] In this we find the consciousness applying itself to objects partaking of course of the nature of experiences of the waking condition, but at the same time producing the sensations of pleasure and pain while they last. [ see SD I 56 ] Let us imagine a person's body plunged in a lethargy extending over twenty years and the mind undergoing a pleasant or unpleasant dream, and we have a life just of that sort, altogether differen= t from the life of one awake. For the consciousness of this dreamer the reality of objects known during the waking state is destroyed. But as material existence is a necessary evil and the one is which alone emancipation or salvation can be obtained, it is of the greatest importance and hence Karma which governs it...must be well understood and then be accepted and obeyed." Echoes. pp. 41-42 "Dreams are sometimes the result of brain action automatically proceeding, and are also produced by the transmission into the brain by the real inner person of those senses or ideas high or low which the real person has seen while the body slept. They are then strained into the brain as if floating on the soul as it sinks into the body. These dreams may be of great use, but generally the resumption of bodily activity destroys the meaning, perverts the image, and reduces all to confusion.=20 But the great fact of all dreaming is that some one perceives and feels therein and this is one of the arguments for the inner person's existence. In sleep the inner man communes with higher intelligences, and sometimes succeeds in impressing the brain with what is gained, either a high idea or a prophetic vision, or else fails in consequence of the resistance of the brain fiber. The karma of the person also determines the meaning of a dream, for a kind may dream that which relates to his kingdom, which the same thing dreamed by a citizen relates to nothing of temporal consequence. But, as said by Job: "In dreams and visions of the night man is instructed." Ocean, p. 143-4 =09 INTUITION "...a projection of our perceptive consciousness, a projection which acts from the subjective to the objective...awakens in us spiritual senses and the power to act; these senses assimilate to themselves the essence of the object or of the action under examination, and represent it to us as it really is, not as it appears to our physical senses and to our cold reason...omniscience." HPB I 428 "...the "Ego" in man is a monad that has gathered to itself innumerable experiences through aeons of time, slowly unfolding its latent potencies through plane after plane of matter. It is hence called the "eternal pilgrim." The Manasic, or mind principle, is cosmic and universal. It is the creator of all forms, and the basis of all law in nature. Not so with consciousness. Consciousness is a condition of the monad as a result of embodiment in matter and the dwelling in a physical form. Self-consciousness, which from the animal plane looking upward is the beginning of perfection, from the divine plane looking downwards is the perfection of selfishness and the curse of separateness. it is the "world of illusion" that man has created for himself. "Maya is the perceptive faculty of every Ego which considers itself a Unit, separate from and independent of the One Infinite and Eternal Sat or 'be-ness'," (SD I 329) The "eternal pilgrim" must therefore mount higher, and flee from the plane of self-consciousness it has struggled so hard to reach." WQJ ART I 29 [ Ascetic making himself invisible to another. WQJ LETTERS 142 [ PAT 45-6 Q & A 216 ] =09=09 DREAMLESS SLEEP "Dreamless sleep is one of the seven states of consciousness known in Oriental esotericism. In each of these states a different portion of the mind comes into action; or as a Vedantin would express it, the individual is conscious in a different plane of his being. The term "dreamless sleep,= " in this case is applied allegorically to the Universe to express a conditio= n somewhat analogous to that state of consciousness in man, which, not being remembered is a waking state, seems a blank, just as the sleep of the mesmerized subject seems to him an unconscious blank when he returns to his normal condition, although he has been talking and acting as a conscious individual would."=09 SD I 47 "Buddhi the Spiritual soul...because it is the direct cause of Sushupti [deep sleep]...leading to Turiya...the highest state of Samadhi [ Meditatio= n ]...Buddhi becomes a "causal body" in conjunction with Manas the incarnatio= n of the Entity or Ego..." Glossary, p. 74 "Good resolutions are mind-painted pictures of good deeds, fancies, day-dreams, whisperings of the Buddhi to the Manas..." Letters from the Masters of Wisdom (I) p 60-1 =09 End Part 2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Best wishes, Dallas =20 From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Dec 30 18:54:27 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67078 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 02:54:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 02:54:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 02:54:27 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1df.31fee509 (25305) for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:54:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1df.31fee509.2f061960@aol.com> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:54:24 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.37 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World How fractal evolution works - part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Dear Cass, ..............Just as I sais. You'll ha plnty gn bnmm,b,. jlk;gu9t79 o tim to In a message dated 12/30/04 8:25:46 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: > >Dear Leon >Will trying to find an answer to my questions on Devachan and reincarnating >back to Earth, I came across this >"No; there are no clocks, no timepieces in Devachan, my esteemed chela, >though the whole Cosmos is a gigantic chronometer in one sense. >Cass > > >Cass Silva wrote: > >Dear Leon >Nothing to fret about when you put it like that. I bet I know what your >first question will be !!! >Cass >ps had a quiet cackle over the jokes > >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > >Dear Cass, > >I wouldn't worry about it. When we shuck off this body and all its >inhibitive and noise making senses, we will hear the "Voice of the Silence" of the >thinker who thinks about us, and we can ask it anything we wish to... And, get a >straight answer directly from the horses mouth. >We also won't be lonely, since we'll be in the company of everyone we ever >knew abd loved in our heart. Could they be in any other mind's thoughts than we >are in and always will be? Besides, we will have already worked through our >memory of this life and its karmic lessons the moment we shuffle off through >the gate, and have plenty of time to ruminate about what we have to do >in the next life to mediate the karma we left behind in this one. What more >verification of our own existence than that do we need? > >>From a scientific point of view, how can we be less than the absolute >zero-point and its surrounding infinite abstract motion or spinergy -- that must >always carry and retain in its patterns of vibrations the entire holistic memory >of all the thoughts and actions of whatever was, is, and will be? So, how can >our individual existence and its experiences ever be lost? When that pre-thought > memory awakens, won't every individual ray of consciousness emanating from >it go back to wherever they left off during the last awakening -- to continue >on from there? Could there be any other way, for any being that was >Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent, to carry on with the game of life? >If not, then how could it and everything in it's memory, and later, thoughts, not >exist forever -- even if only in its mind? > >So, what's there to fret about? > >Leon > > >In a message dated 12/28/04 9:02:09 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: > >>Dear Leon >> >>Another question, >> >>It seems to me that we, like IT, are in manifestation to "know that we >>know ourselves". When we die and are in a purely subjective state we cannot >>verify our own existence but only know that subjective state of all knowing >>without verification (when we are dead). I am not looking forward to that, >>a little centre of consciousness, ruminating on past lives and ,making >>vows to "do things differently, next time", without being able to say to >>someone, "Hey, what do you think?" >> >>>From a little point of consciousnessess point of view, I think it could >>get pretty lonely being omniscient. >> >>Cass >> >>leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: >> >>Dear Cass, >> >>Since you seem to get the point, I have no wonder about where you are coming >>from. You are right, the knowing flows in both directions, the manifestation >>(us) must know itself while the self (it) that created the manifestation must >>know its creation. That is the nature of thought thinking within itself... >>And, why we know we are conscious and know that we know we are conscious. >>Thus, the thinker in us is the thought of the thinker who thought us up. >>I hope that clears things up a bit about where I'm coming from. :-) >> >>Leon >> From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Thu Dec 30 19:20:58 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 36070 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 03:20:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 03:20:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.158) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 03:20:56 -0000 Received: from versus (200-193-027-237.fnsce7005.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.193.27.237]) by smtp2.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3F2DA342C for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:20:54 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <005701c4eee7$623ae720$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041231003741.47543.qmail@web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:18:21 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.158 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: re forms of Theosophical expression Krishtar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Just a comment on the possibility of contacting HPB... IMO, HPB didn=B4t leave any shell avaiable for any medium or similar to con= tact and if it occurs it=B4d be a complete mystification. HPB might probably have incarnated twice from that time on and not both i= ncarnations under the same gender ( what I am certain of ). I have the hability of chanelling but I honestly believe that 96% of the cl= aimed chanelling in the world is a mixture of self-illusioned egos and medi= ums under a difererent label and the best way to contact beings of a higher= nature is not believing they come here to contact us. Nothing the less by using a medium. I mean that we have to raise our conscience to them and that demands self d= evelopment not only morally but also purifying our conscience We all know that the marvellous quote from the " The Voice of the silence" = : Mind is the slayer of the real' means that while we are still struggling= in the world of Maia we will never know the reality. That=B4s why I =B4ve never developed a deeper state of chanelling, I don=B4= t feel any secure about these siddhis. All siddhis IMO are not meant to be concentrated on, but surpassed by the d= eveloping of our conscience till the state in which we are plainly consciou= s of what we really are. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 10:37 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: re forms of Theosophical expression Dear Mauri I don't see how HPB could be in contact with anyone, as it goes against t= he rules. My understanding is that we, while on earth, can, under very, ve= ry, very special circumstances, send a ray of ourselves to Devachan. I am = very unclear about this, but the Masters and HPB are continually stating th= at once disembodied, there is no return/contact with the living, only throu= gh the shell and only through a medium, which if it did occur, would contra= vene everything HPB said about the Spiritualists. That is why I question a= ny Theosophical Member proposing a contact by a resurrection of the dead. On the lighter side, I would like to meet the medium who would channel HP= B or even HPB's shell! Cass =20=20=20 =20=20=20 =20=20=20 That (a) the Jiv follows the divine monad that gives it spiritual life an= d immortality into Devachan--that therefore,it can neither be reborn before= its appointed period, nor reappear on=20 Earth visibly or invisibly in the interim; and (b) that, unless the fruit= ion, the spiritual aroma of the Manas, or all these highest aspirations and= spiritual qualities and attributes that constitute the higher SELF of man = become united to its monad, the latter becomes as Non existent; since it is= in esse "impersonal" and per se Ego-less, so to say, and gets its spiritua= l colouring or flavour of Ego-tism only from each Manas during incarnation = and after it is disembodied, and separated from all its lower principles.=20 =20=20=20 Mauri wrote: prmoliveira wrote: >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Mauri wrote: >=20 >=20 >>Sometimes I wish HPB were available for=20 >>comment on these lists. Every so often=20 >>I find myself wanting to send some=20 >>speculative tangent her way in response=20 >>to something she wrote.=20 >=20 >=20 > How can you be sure she isn't? Why don't you send your speculative=20 > tangents? *She* might reply. >=20 >=20 > Pedro Yes, *She* might reply, whoever/however=20 "*She*" might be interpreted as these=20 days, eh ... Anyway I already sent a=20 bunch of posts out with some thoughts=20 like that in mind. ^:-/ ... Mauri Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Dec 30 19:38:12 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67869 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 03:38:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 03:38:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 03:38:11 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.81] (helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CkDc9-0007SE-I7 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:38:09 +0000 Message-ID: <41D4CA6B.3070900@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:41:31 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on phi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=9.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.125 From: Mauri Subject: re forms of expression X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Cass wrote, in part: <> Thanks, Cass, for the info about Devachan. Seems as if my "I wish" in that post might've failed in its intended limited function as a hypothetical/speculative tone-setter of sorts for what followed (forms of expression in Theosophical discussions), and no more. Sorry if I gave the impression that I was necromantically potificating in terms of that "I wish." Apologetically, Mauri From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Dec 30 20:20:48 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 48145 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 04:20:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 04:20:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m27.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.8) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 04:20:47 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.f4.473c4242 (3842) for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 23:20:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 23:20:30 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.8 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World How fractal evolution works - part 2 (really:-) X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Ha Ha... Guess the ghost of my cat kept jumping on the keyboard. (Cats you once loved don't go to Devachan, they just keep hanging around to remind you how weird this life is -- especially during the year end season when everything that hasn't happened, but is due to happen, happens. ;-) Dear Cass, Just as I said... We'll have plenty of time in Devachan to figure out what we'll have to do in our next incarnation and find out where and maybe when it will be... And why we will have to forget about everything we left behind in this one -- except, maybe, our karma. But, then, we won't even remember that -- until it catches up with us. So, why worry about any of it -- when there's so much to do (or not to do :-) in this life to see that whatever karma we get after Devachan is as good as we can make it? (Don't know if that's the first question you bet I'd ask... So, who wins the bet?:) Besides, judging by how confusing HPB and the Masters left us with the wiggly statements they made on the subject of reincarnation and karma -- I don't think anyone here can give you any answers that might make better sense. Guess we'll just have to wait and find out for ourselves.:-) But, keep on asking questions. Sometimes the right question will give you the correct answer all by itself. (Remember, the Master within already knows.:-) Best wishes. Leon In a message dated 12/30/04 8:25:46 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: > >Dear Leon >Will trying to find an answer to my questions on Devachan and reincarnating >back to Earth, I came across this >"No; there are no clocks, no timepieces in Devachan, my esteemed chela, >though the whole Cosmos is a gigantic chronometer in one sense. >Cass > > >Cass Silva wrote: > >Dear Leon >Nothing to fret about when you put it like that. I bet I know what your >first question will be !!! >Cass >ps had a quiet cackle over the jokes > >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > >Dear Cass, > >I wouldn't worry about it. When we shuck off this body and all its >inhibitive and noise making senses, we will hear the "Voice of the Silence" of the >thinker who thinks about us, and we can ask it anything we wish to... And, get a >straight answer directly from the horses mouth. >We also won't be lonely, since we'll be in the company of everyone we ever >knew abd loved in our heart. Could they be in any other mind's thoughts than we >are in and always will be? Besides, we will have already worked through our >memory of this life and its karmic lessons the moment we shuffle off through >the gate, and have plenty of time to ruminate about what we have to do >in the next life to mediate the karma we left behind in this one. What more >verification of our own existence than that do we need? > >>From a scientific point of view, how can we be less than the absolute >zero-point and its surrounding infinite abstract motion or spinergy -- that must >always carry and retain in its patterns of vibrations the entire holistic memory >of all the thoughts and actions of whatever was, is, and will be? So, how can >our individual existence and its experiences ever be lost? When that pre-thought > memory awakens, won't every individual ray of consciousness emanating from >it go back to wherever they left off during the last awakening -- to continue >on from there? Could there be any other way, for any being that was >Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent, to carry on with the game of life? >If not, then how could it and everything in it's memory, and later, thoughts, not >exist forever -- even if only in its mind? > >So, what's there to fret about? > >Leon > > >In a message dated 12/28/04 9:02:09 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: > >>Dear Leon >> >>Another question, >> >>It seems to me that we, like IT, are in manifestation to "know that we >>know ourselves". When we die and are in a purely subjective state we cannot >>verify our own existence but only know that subjective state of all knowing >>without verification (when we are dead). I am not looking forward to that, >>a little centre of consciousness, ruminating on past lives and ,making >>vows to "do things differently, next time", without being able to say to >>someone, "Hey, what do you think?" >> >>>From a little point of consciousnessess point of view, I think it could >>get pretty lonely being omniscient. >> >>Cass >> >>leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: >> >>Dear Cass, >> >>Since you seem to get the point, I have no wonder about where you are coming >>from. You are right, the knowing flows in both directions, the manifestation >>(us) must know itself while the self (it) that created the manifestation must >>know its creation. That is the nature of thought thinking within itself... >>And, why we know we are conscious and know that we know we are conscious. >>Thus, the thinker in us is the thought of the thinker who thought us up. >>I hope that clears things up a bit about where I'm coming from. :-) >> >>Leon >> From silva_cass@yahoo.com Thu Dec 30 21:05:27 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69333 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 05:05:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 05:05:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.81) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 05:05:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 81063 invoked by uid 60001); 31 Dec 2004 05:05:27 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=knNEc0AhUBTfO6qYx4HnEm9RWJNwh109UfXYXjNFVPkwLle7OKv+j4CFzQtNZ9VizotfyulgUHnfZucJHESj08kQkTbFlzD4WM7Ww5PTUnS2f/qGmfwVsKu3vHViRGav0ub7j+Neg/SmG/CkaUCmnKWLQrSascHEva3SOsOvnEI= ; Message-ID: <20041231050527.81061.qmail@web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:05:26 PST Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:05:26 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <1df.31fee509.2f061960@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.81 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World How fractal evolution works - part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You OK? leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: Dear Cass, ..............Just as I sais. You'll ha plnty gn bnmm,b,. jlk;gu9t79 o tim= =20 to=20 In a message dated 12/30/04 8:25:46 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: > >Dear Leon >Will trying to find an answer to my questions on Devachan and reincarnatin= g >back to Earth, I came across this >"No; there are no clocks, no timepieces in Devachan, my esteemed chela, >though the whole Cosmos is a gigantic chronometer in one sense. >Cass > > >Cass Silva wrote: > >Dear Leon >Nothing to fret about when you put it like that. I bet I know what your >first question will be !!! >Cass >ps had a quiet cackle over the jokes > >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > >Dear Cass, > >I wouldn't worry about it. When we shuck off this body and all its=20 >inhibitive and noise making senses, we will hear the "Voice of the Silence= "=20 of the=20 >thinker who thinks about us, and we can ask it anything we wish to... And,= =20 get a=20 >straight answer directly from the horses mouth.=20 >We also won't be lonely, since we'll be in the company of everyone we ever >knew abd loved in our heart. Could they be in any other mind's thoughts th= an=20 we=20 >are in and always will be? Besides, we will have already worked through ou= r=20 >memory of this life and its karmic lessons the moment we shuffle off throu= gh >the gate, and have plenty of time to ruminate about what we have to do >in the next life to mediate the karma we left behind in this one. What mor= e=20 >verification of our own existence than that do we need? > >>From a scientific point of view, how can we be less than the absolute=20 >zero-point and its surrounding infinite abstract motion or spinergy -- tha= t=20 must=20 >always carry and retain in its patterns of vibrations the entire holistic= =20 memory=20 >of all the thoughts and actions of whatever was, is, and will be? So, how= =20 can=20 >our individual existence and its experiences ever be lost? When that=20 pre-thought > memory awakens, won't every individual ray of consciousness emanating fro= m=20 >it go back to wherever they left off during the last awakening -- to conti= nue >on from there? Could there be any other way, for any being that was=20 >Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent, to carry on with the game of life? >If not, then how could it and everything in it's memory, and later,=20 thoughts, not >exist forever -- even if only in its mind?=20 > >So, what's there to fret about? > >Leon > > >In a message dated 12/28/04 9:02:09 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: > >>Dear Leon >> >>Another question, >> >>It seems to me that we, like IT, are in manifestation to "know that we >>know ourselves". When we die and are in a purely subjective state we cann= ot >>verify our own existence but only know that subjective state of all knowi= ng >>without verification (when we are dead). I am not looking forward to that= , >>a little centre of consciousness, ruminating on past lives and ,making >>vows to "do things differently, next time", without being able to say to >>someone, "Hey, what do you think?" >> >>>From a little point of consciousnessess point of view, I think it could >>get pretty lonely being omniscient. >> >>Cass >> >>leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: >> >>Dear Cass,=20 >> >>Since you seem to get the point, I have no wonder about where you are coming >>from. You are right, the knowing flows in both directions, the manifestat= ion >>(us) must know itself while the self (it) that created the manifestation= =20 must=20 >>know its creation. That is the nature of thought thinking within itself..= . >>And, why we know we are conscious and know that we know we are conscious. >>Thus, the thinker in us is the thought of the thinker who thought us up. >>I hope that clears things up a bit about where I'm coming from. :-)=20 >> >>Leon=20 >> Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! =96 Get yours free!=20=20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Thu Dec 30 21:09:15 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 4744 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 05:09:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 05:09:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.81) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 05:09:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 82384 invoked by uid 60001); 31 Dec 2004 05:09:13 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=gsANUm0j6EaLD8RP+H+rUGUSZfA8eQ/SMDzfugJv5YaTJ96Edy4glZ+Km5e4u/L1Op/uUPR9ym5APYq1EsEs/u+W2NNOcnLxQu7+1JT/qjxbEGUDnyMKbMGMNvHe1KCegLALKkdl9Xq56aXjrdJZLslGcCi1idmxjNTHIj/8WUY= ; Message-ID: <20041231050913.82382.qmail@web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:09:13 PST Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:09:13 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.81 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World How fractal evolution works - part 2 (really:-) X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's a relief, I thought it might have been your ghost! No, I was thinkin= g something on the lines of "when can I go back to test the theory"! Happy New Year to you and your family Cass leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: Ha Ha... Guess the ghost of my cat kept jumping on the keyboard. (Cats you= =20 once loved don't go to Devachan, they just keep hanging around to remind yo= u=20 how weird this life is -- especially during the year end season when everyt= hing=20 that hasn't happened, but is due to happen, happens. ;-) Dear Cass,=20 Just as I said... We'll have plenty of time in Devachan to figure out what= =20 we'll have to do in our next incarnation and find out where and maybe when = it=20 will be... And why we will have to forget about everything we left behind i= n=20 this one -- except, maybe, our karma. But, then, we won't even remember tha= t --=20 until it catches up with us. So, why worry about any of it -- when there's = so=20 much to do (or not to do :-) in this life to see that whatever karma we get= =20 after Devachan is as good as we can make it? (Don't know if that's the firs= t=20 question you bet I'd ask... So, who wins the bet?:) Besides, judging by how= =20 confusing HPB and the Masters left us with the wiggly statements they made = on=20 the subject of reincarnation and karma -- I don't think anyone here can giv= e you=20 any answers that might make better sense. Guess we'll just have to wait and= =20 find out for ourselves.:-) But, keep on asking questions. Sometimes the right question will give you=20 the correct answer all by itself. (Remember, the Master within already know= s.:-) Best wishes. Leon In a message dated 12/30/04 8:25:46 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: > >Dear Leon >Will trying to find an answer to my questions on Devachan and reincarnatin= g >back to Earth, I came across this >"No; there are no clocks, no timepieces in Devachan, my esteemed chela, >though the whole Cosmos is a gigantic chronometer in one sense. >Cass > > >Cass Silva wrote: > >Dear Leon >Nothing to fret about when you put it like that. I bet I know what your >first question will be !!! >Cass >ps had a quiet cackle over the jokes > >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > >Dear Cass, > >I wouldn't worry about it. When we shuck off this body and all its=20 >inhibitive and noise making senses, we will hear the "Voice of the Silence= "=20 of the=20 >thinker who thinks about us, and we can ask it anything we wish to... And,= =20 get a=20 >straight answer directly from the horses mouth.=20 >We also won't be lonely, since we'll be in the company of everyone we ever >knew abd loved in our heart. Could they be in any other mind's thoughts th= an=20 we=20 >are in and always will be? Besides, we will have already worked through ou= r=20 >memory of this life and its karmic lessons the moment we shuffle off throu= gh >the gate, and have plenty of time to ruminate about what we have to do >in the next life to mediate the karma we left behind in this one. What mor= e=20 >verification of our own existence than that do we need? > >>From a scientific point of view, how can we be less than the absolute=20 >zero-point and its surrounding infinite abstract motion or spinergy -- tha= t=20 must=20 >always carry and retain in its patterns of vibrations the entire holistic= =20 memory=20 >of all the thoughts and actions of whatever was, is, and will be? So, how= =20 can=20 >our individual existence and its experiences ever be lost? When that=20 pre-thought > memory awakens, won't every individual ray of consciousness emanating fro= m=20 >it go back to wherever they left off during the last awakening -- to conti= nue >on from there? Could there be any other way, for any being that was=20 >Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent, to carry on with the game of life? >If not, then how could it and everything in it's memory, and later,=20 thoughts, not >exist forever -- even if only in its mind?=20 > >So, what's there to fret about? > >Leon > > >In a message dated 12/28/04 9:02:09 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: > >>Dear Leon >> >>Another question, >> >>It seems to me that we, like IT, are in manifestation to "know that we >>know ourselves". When we die and are in a purely subjective state we cann= ot >>verify our own existence but only know that subjective state of all knowi= ng >>without verification (when we are dead). I am not looking forward to that= , >>a little centre of consciousness, ruminating on past lives and ,making >>vows to "do things differently, next time", without being able to say to >>someone, "Hey, what do you think?" >> >>>From a little point of consciousnessess point of view, I think it could >>get pretty lonely being omniscient. >> >>Cass >> >>leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: >> >>Dear Cass,=20 >> >>Since you seem to get the point, I have no wonder about where you are coming >>from. You are right, the knowing flows in both directions, the manifestat= ion >>(us) must know itself while the self (it) that created the manifestation= =20 must=20 >>know its creation. That is the nature of thought thinking within itself..= . >>And, why we know we are conscious and know that we know we are conscious. >>Thus, the thinker in us is the thought of the thinker who thought us up. >>I hope that clears things up a bit about where I'm coming from. :-)=20 >> >>Leon=20 >> Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page =96 Try My Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Thu Dec 30 21:12:54 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 30586 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 05:12:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 05:12:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 05:12:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 72635 invoked by uid 60001); 31 Dec 2004 05:12:45 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=KEiabZIqWV/kvS+VbYjP8bQakmdcX2KBzZKcmYRdUBRQfT2dEsAjTU90MbVteAmL9RGDr49icWxbL5yQLOElIrtnFI4Gb7RaNqLxugfbpYVf9KK5YxthrLfeX6qp7SYE0FURhrY6HVxaWfgo08m7BxQwVSNpPEk9w3gXlABmM/E= ; Message-ID: <20041231051245.72633.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:12:45 PST Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:12:45 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <41D4CA6B.3070900@idirect.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.74 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World re forms of expression X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good thing you were just speculating as you may have necromanced more than you could handle in HPB.! Cass Mauri wrote: Cass wrote, in part: > Thanks, Cass, for the info about Devachan. Seems as if my "I wish" in that post might've failed in its intended limited function as a hypothetical/speculative tone-setter of sorts for what followed (forms of expression in Theosophical discussions), and no more. Sorry if I gave the impression that I was necromantically potificating in terms of that "I wish." Apologetically, Mauri Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Thu Dec 30 22:58:40 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 48042 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 06:58:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 06:58:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web41526.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.133) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 06:58:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 37825 invoked by uid 60001); 31 Dec 2004 06:58:30 -0000 Message-ID: <20041231065830.37823.qmail@web41526.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [150.101.201.135] by web41526.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:58:30 PST Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:58:30 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.133 From: Pedro Oliveira Subject: A Question for the New Year X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617 X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira Mauri recent speculations and Jerry Hejka-Ekins comments in his dialogue with Dallas have made me pose the following question: Can Theosophy evolve? If evolution is one of the inherent, universal laws in our universe, does it also apply to the Wisdom Tradition? A Happy New Year to all. Pedro __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Dec 31 03:49:46 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69622 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 11:49:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 11:49:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.64) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 11:49:45 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.64] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CkLD7-0001jE-Na; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 06:44:55 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance; b=Y4G8MOoTxeto9k66aeD09GQzg+1zEywhwCQATseMleOmL6bqJXueeiZZqUg7XU/V; To: "AAA-Dal" Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:43:14 -0800 Message-ID: <000a01c4ef2e$22784d20$40deb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79de605019b87936bddfbb37a692532f51350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.64 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.222.64 Subject: Part 2 -- Ancient Cataclysms X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 31 2004 Part 2 -- ANCIENT CATACLYSMS PART 2 =3D=3D ATLANTIS, LEMURIA, GIANTS, etc...=20=20=20=20 Included Geological Chronology -- Time Charts Chronology of THEOSOPHY and Hindus -------------------------------------------------------------------- It is important as we said at the beginning of Part 1 to remember that the entire evolutionary cycle of humanity on our Earth is 3 fold:=20=20 1. Spiritual (or MONADIC),=20=20 2. Intellectual (Mind and Emotion conjoined), and,=20=20 3. Physical [SD I 181]. In all cases the units are immortal MONADS. The study of evolution is the study of the progress of the Monads as each is assisting in the evolutionary development of others which are less progressed. In all cases, the wiser assist the rest, who have less experience, in theirs. MONADIC REINCARNATION -- A BROTHERHOOD It is a vast living and progressive BROTHERHOOD. It is a vast cooperative. The first object of the TS is to demonstrate that. The SD was written with that purpose in mind, hence the HISTORY (SD I 267) of the past is opened to all of us as never before. The sweep of esoteric History shows us in retrospect where we have been and how we have participated in the maturation process that has produced our talents, character, and our personality in general; it now plays an important part in our motivation. But, as students of Theosophy we have to always remember that these are not he essential "US." We are the Spiritual MONAD, which is Atma-Buddhi-Manas. The "personality" is our vehicle, and our "pupil." We ought to use the diagram that HPB gives us on p. 200 of SD Vol. I quite frequently. This "Part Two" deals mainly with the 3rd, 4th and 5th ROOT RACES of GLOBE "D" in the 4th ROUND. [ the Lemurian, Atlantean, and Aryan root Races through which we have passed, and are now passing, as immortal Egos. ] If we wish to review the information given in the SECRET DOCTRINE concerning the land masses (continents) that were used (in this the 4th ROUND, GLOBE "D") by the early RACES, when we were incarnated in and used the type of bodies provided by those RACES, we could open the 2nd Vol. of the S D at p. 6 where a table of Continents is given: TABLE OF CONTINENTS [ 4th Round, Globe "D" ] 1. "he IMPERISHABLE SACRED LAND" lasts from one end to the other of the Manvantara. Presumably this is an area which is never destroyed by=20 either floods or volcanism but is reserved for the use of the Wise, who alone know its present location. 2. "The HYPERBOREAN" -- 2nd Continent - extended its promontories south from the North Polar area. Apollo (the Sun, Hyperboreas) traveled there once a year according to Greek tradition, and for that half year visit, the Sun never set there. 3. "The LEMURIAN" -- 3rd Continent -- (the name was invented by P. L. Slater who between 1830-60 asserted its existence on zoological grounds). He contended (as does the Secret Doctrine) that it stretched, shaped like an enormous crescent from Greenland in the West through England, Europe and North Africa, then passed through Madagascar and Mauritius, through Ceylon and Sumatra, then, including Australia, it crossed the Pacific, touched South America and California and ended in what we call north-east Asia after passing through the area we name the Bering Straits in the East. 4,242, 352 BC=20=09 Extreme volcanism began the period of Lemurian destruction=20 [SD II 266], and finally its remnants were swept away in a vast=20 flood around 4,242, 352 BC [SD I 439fn]. 4. "ATLANTIS" -- 4th Continent. It included portions of the 2nd and the 3rd Continents, but was chiefly massed in what is now the Atlantic Ocean, permitting the passage over land from Europe to America. It had many important land masses associated with it, including north Africa and Egypt, as well as portions of Central Asia, and some remnants of Lemuria in the Indian and Pacific ocean areas [SD II 403, 327]. 998,100 years BC=20=09 Atlantis began a cataclysmic sinking around 998,100 years BC [SD II 141], and its largest peninsula was submerged around 850,000 BC [SD II p. 10]. Posedonis, the last island (of which Plato wrote) sank in 9,566 BC [SD II 155 406 444fn ISIS I 589-594, "Five Years of Theosophy," p. 99fn]. A number of archeologists and paleographers have remarked on the close similarity of monuments, zodiacal and astronomical records, and of script that is to be traced on opposite sides of the Atlantic--showing an ancient linkage there. 5. "AMERICA" -- is the 5th Continent. However, in old Sanskrit literature it was located at "Patala" -- the "antipodes" to India It is the land mass related to our Race, named the Noble (Aryan). Europe, North Africa and Asia Minor are parts of the 5th continent; and, more recently, America has once more become more densely inhabited in the last 300 years. But, as we may see when we consult a map of our Earth, our land masses of today include portions of the older continents that have been heaved up out of the ocean. Submersion and upheaval are constantly going on. It should be noted that the records of the SECRET DOCTRINE are not limited by (or to) the present geographical outlines of the configuration of our present continents.=20=20 PLATE TECTONICS=09 It may be noted that the present "plate-tectonics" hypothesis is not=20 endorsed by the S D. This plausible hypothesis has recently engaged=20 the attention of geologists and geographers. It advances the concept that our present known continental patterns are fixed to their "plates." These in turn "float" and gradually move on a softer subterranean core of a more fluidic mass of hot rock; and the result is that they have participated (without altering shape) over millions of years in "continental drift." But, this is not a theory that is confirmed by the esoteric history of our Earth, as given in the SECRET DOCTRINE. In tracing the past history and movements of the RACES, the land masses follow the order of evolution of the RACES from 1st to the 5th. The book The SECRET DOCTRINE, does not take into account the location and fate of many islands and peninsulas since the face of the Earth has changed many times, and the Poles have been inverted several times [SD II 350 353 360 368 432-3 785-6 436]. 12,000 BC=20 The last serious geographical and geological change occurred around 12,000 BC [SD II 8-9] and was followed by=20 9,566 BC the submergence of Posedonis (9,566 BC). Change in the elevation of the continents and islands is not always violent states the S D [SD II 787fn]. GIANTS The stature of man (which in the early Astral matter races, was gigantic as compared with ours) has varied and decreased with the concretisation of the material environment. The passage from the 1st to the 5th RACE following this increased densification is traced in the SD [SD II 9 224-5 336-8] On page SD II 338, we read of a still existing series of statues on the north side of the Hindu Kush range that illustrate this decrease. At Bamiyan stand carved in stone the record of the decreasing size (173, 120, 60, 27, to 6 feet in height ) of the physical forms that humanity has used. A few years ago the magazine NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC published photographs of these. LIBRARIES and RECORDS The SECRET DOCTRINE states that a complete record of all these many changes covering millions of years, have been maintained [SDI xxiv-v, xxxii, xxxix, II 324-29 334-5]. Ancient monuments were erected to show Astronomical time, and record the source of measures as well as other facts that succeeding civilizations could use when the time came for their civilizations to emerge again [SD I 439fn II 346 430 501 732]. FIRST CITIES It was in the 5th Sub-race of the 3rd Root Race (Lemurian) that mankind separated sexually [SD II 715fn] In the 6th and 7th Sub races Cities were built and the first seeds of civilization were scattered under the watchful eyes of the "Divine Instructors" [SD II 20-21,199, 220-1, 317-19, 366, 432, I xxxiv-v]. It was then that language and writing were developed [SD II 199-201, 346fn, 439-42, 729, I xxxii]. GEOLOGICAL CYCLES OF CHANGE Our Earth is subject to 7 major periodical entire changes which occur as the RACES change on the GLOBE where they are evolving [SD II 329]. The RACES and their Continents are periodically destroyed alternately by fire (volcanoes and earthquakes) and water [floods] -- this is a doctrine as old as man [SD II 725]. Our continents, like Lemuria and Atlantis, have been several times submerged and then have reappeared so that they may bear their fresh crop of civilized groups of mankind [SD II 332]. AS an example the Egyptian Pyramids are said to have been three times submerged [SD I 313 424 617 II 351-2 462-575 749-50 Such re-emergence is accompanied by a cleansing process whereby the thick deposits that cover the land are disposed of and restore its fertility [SD II 325]. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- TIME CHARTS [ We give below a table of Geological Ages as they were estimated in HPB's time, and as they are estimated now. [SD II 710] GEOLOGICAL CHRONOLOGY [ These dates are used by Scientific Geology and are approximate estimates only. ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ------------------ Name of 1888 2000 GEOLOGICAL AGE HPB's S D DATES MODERN DATES =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D PRIMORDIAL . 321,000,000 years, [SD II 711-2] PALEOZOIC Laurentian . . . 1 billion years ?? (+/-) Cambrian . . . 590,000,000 years Ordovician . . . 505,000,000 Silurian . . . . 438,000,000 PRIMARY . 150,000,000 years [SD II 712] Devonian . . . 408,000,000 years Carboniferous . . . 360,000,000 Permian . . . 280,000,000 SECONDARY . 45,000,000 [SD II 713-14] MESOZOIC Triassic . . . . 248,000,000 Jurassic . . . . 213,000,000 Cretaceous . . . 144,000,000 TERTIARY 9,000,000 [SD II 714] CENOZOIC Paleocene . . . 65,000,000 Eocene . . . . 55,000,000 Oligocene . . . 38,000,000 Miocene . . . 25,000,000 Pliocene . . . 5,000,000 QUATERNARY 1,600,000 [SD II 715] Paleolithic . . . Pleistocene . . . 2,000,000 Neolithic . . . Holocene . . . 100,000 Historical . . . 10,000 (?) PRESENT DAY [Origin and Evolution of Mammals considered SD II 724-738.] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D THEOSOPHICAL and HINDU CHRONOLOGY [SD II 68-70] C H R O N O L O G Y =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D Year Groups, Tribes Notes and References >From To or Individual =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D Universal and World Periods SD II 68-70 OCEAN 125 _____________________________ 311,040,000 000 000 years =3D Maha Kalpa, or Life of Brahma ( 100 of Brahma's years) [311 trillion, 40 billion] SD II 70 3,110,400,000,000 years =3D 1 Year of Brahma SD II 70 [ 3 trillion, 110 billion ] 8,640,000,000 years =3D 1 Day + 1 Night of Brahma 4,320,000,000 years =3D 1 Kalpa =3D l Day of Brahma or 1,000 Maha-Yugas SD II 69 or 14 Manus SD II 59-60 see The Theosophist, Nov., 1885, p. 115-6; 1 Day of Brahma =3D 4,294,080,000 years=20 =3D 994 Maha-Yugas or 14 Manus add 25,920,000 years =3D 1 Sandhi (twilight) _____________________ 4,320,000,000 years =3D 1 Kalpa 1 Day of Brahma (4 billion, 320 million) SD II 69-70 1 Manvantara =3D 306,720,000 years =3D 71 Maha Yugas=20 of 4,320,000 years add 1,728,000 years =3D 1 Sandhi SD II 69 ____________________ 308,448,000 years =3D 1 Manvantara SD II 69 4 Yugas [ The 4 "Ages" ] . SD II 69 ML p. 121; IS I 32 1,728,000 years =3D Krita (or Satya, or Golden Age-Yuga) 1,296,000 years =3D Treta (or Silver Age--Yuga ) 864,000 years =3D Dwapara ( or Bronze Age--Yuga ) 432,000 years - Kali ( or Black, Iron Age--Yuga ) __________________ 4,320,000 years =3D 1 Maha Yuga - or 1/1000th of A Day of Brahma= =20 SD I 136 II 69 HPB Art. III 422;=20 Lucif XIII, 183-4; ML 121=20=20=09 ISIS I 14 32 293 301-4 428 587 II 260 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Solar or Heliacal Year 25,868 years SD I 314 Ocean 121 ( 1 Sub-race ) SD I 439fn II 141fn 330fn 436fn Metonic Cycle 6,586 days =3D cycle of eclipses ( or revolution =3D 18 yrs. 11 1/2 day - the moon's node [a cycle of 6,585 days (18.041 years) Grand Cycles Orpheus: 120,000 years IS I 294 fn Cassandrus 136,000 years IS I 294 fn =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Our Earth 1,955,884,687 years (in 1887) from the beginning of "cosmic evolution" SD II 68fn - 300,000,000 Years as a Sandhi (twilight) ______________ 1,664,884,687 years (in 1887) from the first appearance of "Humanity" (on this planetary chain) as a physical form SD II 68fn Kali Yuga ours is the 28th age of the 7th Manvantara of 308,448,000 years ISIS I 32 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D B. C. 18,618,727 Lighting up of Manas [ mind ] (as in 1887) SD I 150fn; SD II 69 254-5 4,000,000 c. Engulfing of Lemuria (e.g.:--Easter Island) 4,242,352 SD I 439fn II 68-70 141 [4th Round, 4th Globe, 3rd "Race"] Easter Island - evidence SD I 322 439 II 224 317 Atlantis [ Titans / Kabiri / Cyclops ] [4th Round, 4th Globe, 4th "Race"] 1,050,000 Beginning of the 5th "Race" SD II 141 144 435 Vedas SD I 269-71 II 483-4 450 606 616 T M 5-67 Glos 361 IS I 444 THY 2-468 Theos't I-247 Col. I TOP. WQJ ART II 82-3 Theos't 9-428 1,050,000 BC Vedanta SD I 7 50-1 269 451 Glos 361 253 (Uttara Mimansa - Vyasa) Theos't I-201 287 9-411 Lucif 6-119 Advaita (non-dualistic) SD I 8 55 522 II 637 GLOS 7 (Shankaracharya - founder) ML 53-4 Theos't 10-7 Glos 307 Dwaita (dualistic) Manu Smriti (Code of Manu given Krita Yuga) IS I 585-6 1,000,000 Aryan Race began SD II 395 Theosophy 45, p. 219 Brahmin invasion of N. India Is II 156fn 169 158 Is II 323 192 SD I 209 II 565 Glos 222 Persians, Turanians, Goths, Slavs IS. I 569-576; II 426-433 c. 1,000,000 - 500,000 B C 998,100 Cataclysms: Atlantis begins sinking SD II 141 Is I 557 593 SD II 10 144 Glos 42-3 869,000 Dwapara Yuga Commencement (since 1888) SD II 147 ( Kali-Yuga began 3,102 BC ) 850,000 Since submergence of last large peninsula of the Great Atlantis SD II 10 850,000 Glacial Period est. by Stockwell & Croll SD II 141 144 800,000 Angkor Wat built (2nd most Occult Edifice) Glos 223 Is I 239 561-8 271-2 500,000 - 250,000 B C 470,000 Babylon's astronomical observations go back to this Nebo or Birs Nimrud, BCW 13-274 Isis I 533 450,000 Epoch of Ramayana (Brahmin estimate) C & J p. 73 Theos't Vol. 10-35 SD II 496 IS II 278 Glos 275 400,000 Egypt was settled by the Atlanteans and the Eastern AEtheopeans SD II 750 250,000 - 100,000 B C 250,000 + Last Glaciation of Europe Isis I 3 Pyramids were 3 times submerged SD I 313 424 617 S D II 462-6 575 435 749-50 351-3 462 351-2 93 276fn 429 GL 223 GLOS 300 IS I 154 239 296-7 517-21 THY Vol. 67-p.54 Sphinx (Harmachus) SD II 124 618 Glos 135-6 Is I 573 200,000 Chaldean Astronomical Observations extended back at Alexander's invasion -- Berosus SD I xxvi 200,000 Stockwell & Croll est. of last Glaciation SD II 144 100,000 - 30,000 B C 78,000 + Denderah Zodiac [Egyptians brought from Lanka--Menes ] SD II 374fn 431-6 456 577 580; IS I 440-1 49,186 Egyptian Records go back to ( Diogenes Laertius ) by 8,863 yrs. in 323 BC IS I 33 34,300 Sumerian Tablet gives 32,234 yrs between Deluge and last king of Isin c.200 BC Thy 16, p.195 30,000 - 10,000 B C 29,217 Alpha Polaris (Dhruva) (as Pole Star) (in 1888) 31,105 yrs ago Glos. 17 15,194 Zodiac Originated 1st degree of Aries ( Ram ) 15,086 Vernal Equinox and 1st degree of Libra coincided ( 16,984 yrs ago in 1888 ) SD I 658 12,300 Vyasa - Uttara Mimansa & Vedanta taught Isis II 621 "Bhadarayana" SD I 50 269 451 Glos 361 11,100 Vega (Alpha Lyrae was Pole Star Thy 17-18 10,000 - 6,000 B C 9,566 Deluge of Deucalion. Last Island of Atlantis ML p. 155 submerged. Last war between the "Sons of God" of the "White Island" and the last Atlantean sorcerers ISIS I 589-594; 5 Yrs of Thy p. 99; SD II 406 444fn 9,500 Atlantis - Last Island sank Timaeus"- Plato as narrated by Priests of Sais to Solon TM 46-469 8,000 Hindu Initiates had same Secret Philosophy then as now (estimate) SD II 406 IS II 535 8,000 Tchandalas (Semites) begin to emigrate India to Chaldea SD II 200 Glos 323 165 IS I 135 551-2 578 Isis II 438-9 SD I 313fn 7,975 End of the last Sidereal Year Ocean 129 SD I 649-50 (9,868 yrs. before 1893) SD II 314 331 432 470 6,500 c Zarathustra (6,000 yrs. before Plato c 400 BC Glos. 384-5 IS I 19 II 141 SD I 464 II 323 Theos't I-13 Thy 14-97 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 Zoroaster was a Title - 24 Zoroasters. The last was a contemporary of Gautama Buddha. c. 600 BC ] 6,000 - 4,000 B C 6,000/5,000 Trojan War nearer 6,000 BC S D II 437fn Thy 27-103 IS I 520 598 Glos 96 (Dardanus) SD II 101 236 440 5,100 Neith (1st Dynasty) Lucif 2-465 SD I 399 Glos 77 227 234 4,100 c Manu-Vina (Menes) to Masra (Cairo) IS I 627 516 SD II 335 374 431-2 436 746; Thy 15, 317 4,000 - 3,000 B C 3750 Sargon I reigned (Prof. A.H.Sayce) SD II 691 3,700 Local Deluge in Middle East S D II 691 3,200 c Date assigned to last Veda Vyasa by the Brahmins. [Vyasa is a title.] Glos 362 3,102 Kali Yuga began Feb. 16, AM: 2 Hrs, 27 Min, 30 Sec. [the only precise time given] SD I 662 SD II 147 fn 3,102 Krishna's death (18 Feb. 3,102 BC) Glos 170 387 [ midnight 17/18 ] Thy. I-p.374; IV-p. 37 3,102 Hindu Zodiac Begins at sunrise Feb 18th SD I 662 ( origin of present Hindu era: "Vikram Samvat" and Zodiac, Tiravalour, So. India ) 3,100 c Vikramaditya rules at Ujjain ("Vikram Samvat") SD I 662 [ begins at Sunrise, February 18th 3,102 B C ] 3,100 c Fu - H'si ( Krishna of China ) Thy 14- 308 Po - H'si ( 1st Ruler of China) Thy 14- 1 3,100 c Arjuna to Patala ( marries Ulupi ) SD II 214fn [ Orphean Mysteries ] Glos 29 ("Patala" =3D Mexico ) Thy 15, 546 IS II 561fn 3,100 c Orpheus identified with Arjuna Thy 27, 148 Glos 242 (On travel to Patala, stops in Greece) HPB ART III 138 IS I 532 II 129 550 SD I 207 267fn 529 784 Lucif 16-273 Theos't 5-20 Col 2 Bot, "Mysteries of Orpheus" established. 3,000 - 2,000 B C 3,000 c Gilgamesh epic "Flood" of Jewish Bible Thy 16, 307 2,875 c Akkadians (Semites) Sumer Sargon IS I 576-78 2,800 c Yi-King (Chinese Kabala --Akkadians) Thy 25-444 2,700 Hwang-Ti 3rd after Po-H'si Thy 15-19 Thy 14-310 Babylon & Assyria Glos 47 37 IS I 567 ML 152 THY 16-194 307 2,253 Chaldean Astronom. Observations for the past 1903 years Calliosthenes to Aristotle (c 350 BC) IS I 21 Kasidim Glos 75 81 39 196 IS I xxviii 534 459 567 HPB Art III 134 ML 152 CWB 5-13 326-8 SD II 620 2,200 c Shu-King and Shi-King (China) Thy 14-310 IS I 11 Hammurabi (Code) Babylon Thy 16-196 2,000 c Sumeria old texts interlinear Semitic Thy 16-194 translations Thy 21-414 2,000 - 1,000 B C 1,925 c Hittites capture Babylon IS I 567-8 1,850 c Chung-Ki (China ) Thy 14-34 1,700 c Knossos (Crete) at its height IS I 264 545 [ c 3,000 BC - 1,400 BC ] 1,628 c Thera (Santorini) Volcano Erupts (Tree Ring Dating) [ L A Times, Aug 29 1996 ] [ End of Minoan Civilization, and tidal waves overwhelm coasts of Eastern Mediterranean.] Chronology interrupted at this point. DTB End of PART TWO ----------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Dallas =20 From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Dec 31 03:49:50 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49495 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 11:49:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 11:49:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.64) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 11:49:49 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.64] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CkLEl-0001jE-QG; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 06:46:39 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance; b=mGCfZJF3+BEkKvha1Kd3sfw6VofKlHCuHNAiIyVHzBTiAQx10sQaRARgEf97EB62; To: "AAA-Dal" Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:43:14 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01c4ef2e$5f529c00$40deb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79de605019b87936bddaf532400459cf20350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.64 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.222.64 Subject: Part 1 Remember the end of Atlantis? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 31 2004 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 WHERE THE RISHIS WERE =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 The R= ishis were the sacred Bards, the Saints, the great Adepts =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Known= to the Hindus, who gave great spiritual impulses in the =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Past = and are said to sometimes reincarnate, and who at one time =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 lived= on the earth among men. =A0 =A0 =93The world is made of seas and islands.=A0 For continents are only great = lands water-encircled.=A0 Men must ever live upon sea or land, then, unless they abide in air, and if=A0 they live in the air, they are not men as we know them.=94 =A0 Thus I thought as the great ship steamed slowly into the port of a small island, and before the anchor fell the whole scene seemed to change and the dazzling light of the past blotted out the dark pictures of modern civilization.=A0 Instead of an English ship I was standing on an ancient vehicle propelled by force unknown today, until the loud noises of disembarkation roused me once again. =A0 But landed now, I was standing on the hill overlooking the town and bay.=A0 The strange light and the curious vehicle again obtained mastery over sense and eye, while the whole majesty of forgotten years rolled in from the Ocean.=A0 Vainly did modern education struggle and soar:=A0 I let the curta= in drop upon the miserable present=85. =A0 =A0 =A0 Now softly sings the water as it rolls against the shore, with the sun but one hour old shining upon its surface.=A0 But, far off, what is that spot coming nearer from the West, followed by another and another until over the horizon rise hundreds, and now some are so near that they are plainly seen?= =A0 The same strange vehicles as that I saw at first.=A0 Like birds they fly through the air.=A0 They come slowly now, and some have been brought still = on the land.=A0 They light on the earth with a softness that seems nearly huma= n, with a skill that is marvelous, without any shock or rebound.=A0=20 =A0 >From them alight men of noble mien who address me as friends, and one more noble than the others seems to say, =93Wouldst thou know of all this?=A0 Th= en come,=94 as he turns again to his vehicle that stands there like a bird in wait to be off. =A0 =93Yes, I will go;=94 and I felt that the past and the present were but one= , and knew what I should see, yet could not remember it but with a vagueness that blotted out all the details. =A0 We entered the swift intelligently-moving vehicle, and then it rose up on the air=92s wide-spreading arms and flew again fast to the West, where the water was still softly singing to the beams of the sun.=A0 The horizon slow= ly rose and the Island behind us was hidden by the sea from our sight.=A0 And still as onward we flew to the Occident, many more birds made by manlike that we were in flew by us as if in haste for the soft-singing waters lapping the shore of that peak of the sea mountain we had left in the Orient.=A0 Flying=A0 too high at first we heard no sound from the sea, but = soon a damp vapor that blew in my face from the salt deep showed that we were descending, and then spoke my friend. =A0 =93Look below and around and before you!=94 =A0 =A0 Down there were the roar and rush of mad billows that reached toward the sky, vast hollows that sucked in a world.=A0 Black clouds shut out the grea= t sun, and I saw that the crust of the earth was drawn in to her own subterranean depths.=A0 Turning now to the master, I saw that he heard my unuttered question.=A0 He said, =A0 =93A cycle has ended.=A0 The great bars that kept back the sea have been br= oken down by their weight.=A0 From these we have come and are coming.=94 =A0 Then faster sailed our bird, and I saw that a great Island was perishing.= =A0 What was left of the shore still crumbled, still entered the mouth of the sea.=A0 And there were cars of the air just the same as that I was in, only dark and unshining, vainly trying to rise with their captains;=A0 rising slowly, then falling, and then swallowed up.=20 =A0 But here we have rushed further in where the water has not overflowed, and now we see that few are the bright cars of air that are waiting about while their captains are entering and spoiling the mighty cars of the men whose clothing is red and whose bodies, so huge and amazing, are sleeping as if from the fumes of a drug. =A0 As these great red men are slumbering, the light-stepping captains with sun-colored cloaks are finishing the work of destruction.=A0 And now, swift= ly though we came, the waters have rushed on behind us, the salt breath of the all-devouring deep sweeps over us.=A0 The sun-colored captains enter their light air-cars and rise with a sweep that soon leaves the sleepers, now waking, behind them.=A0 The huge red-coated giants hear the roar of the wat= ers and feel the cold waves roll about them.=A0 They enter their cars, but only= to find all their efforts are wasted.=A0 Soon the crumbling earth no longer supports them, and all by an inrushing wave are engulfed, drawn into the mouth of the sea, and the treacherous ocean with roars as of pleasure in conquest has claimed the last race of that Island. =A0 But one has escaped of all the red giants, and slowly but surely his car sailed up, up, as if to elude the sun-colored men who were spoilers. =A0 Then, loud, clear, and thrilling swelled out a note of marvelous power from my captain, and back came a hundred of those brilliant fast cars that were speeding off eastward.=A0 Now they pursue the heavy, vast, slow-moving car = of the giant, surround it, and seem to avoid its attacks.=A0 Then again swells that note from my master as our car hung still on its wings. It was a signal, obeyed in an instant. =A0 One brilliant, small sharp-pointed car is directed full at the red giant=92= s vehicle.=A0 Propelled by a force that exceeds the swift bullet, it pierces = the other, itself, too, is broken and falls on the waves with its victim.=A0 Trembling I gazed down below, but my captain said kindly, =A0 =93He is safe, for he entered another bright car at the signal.=A0 All thos= e red-coated men are now gone, and that last was the worse and the greatest.= =94 =A0 Back eastward once more through the salt spray and the mist until soon the bright light shone again and the Island rose over the sea with the soft-singing water murmuring back to the sun.=A0 We alighted, and then, as = I turned, the whole fleet of swift sailing cars disappeared, and out in the sky flashed a bright streak of sun-colored light that formed into letters which read: =A0 =93This is where the Rishis were before the chalk cliffs of Albion rose out= of the wave.=A0 They were but are not.=94 =A0 And loud, clear and thrilling rose that note I had heard in the car of swif= t pinions.=A0 It thrilled me with sadness, for past was the glory and naught = for the future was left but a destiny. =A0 Bryan Kinnavan (Wm. Q. Judge) THE PATH,=A0 January 1891. =A0 ----------------------------------------------- =A0 THEOSOPHY teaches: =A0 998,100 B C Atlantean continent began sinking=20 [SD II 10, 141, 144, ISIS I 557, 593].=20 =A0 9,664 BC The last Island related to Atlantis, [=93Posedonis=94] is said to have sunk=20 [ML 155, =A0=A0=A0SD II 5, 8, 406, 444fn, =A0=A0=A0ISIS I 589-94]. 1,628 c Thera (Santorini) Volcano Erupts (Tree Ring Dating) [ L A Times, Aug 29 1996 ] [ End of Minoan Civilization, and tidal waves overwhelm coasts of Eastern Mediterranean.] =A0 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The vast tsunami in the Indian Ocean that has just been experienced, [Dec. 26 2004] seems to relate in some particulars of geological catastrophe to the story above. The suffering of individuals is of course enormous and deserves all our efforts to help and succor. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =A0 It should be noted that the records of the SECRET DOCTRINE are not limited by (or to) the present geographical outlines of the configuration of our present continents.=A0=20 =A0 It may be noted that the present "plate-tectonics" hypothesis is not endorsed by the S D.=A0 This plausible hypothesis has recently engaged the attention of geologists and geographers.=A0 It advances=A0 the concept that= our present known continental patterns are fixed to their "plates." These in turn "float" and gradually move on a softer subterranean core of a more fluidic mass of hot rock; and the result is that they have participated (without altering shape) over millions of years in "continental drift."=A0= =A0 But, this is not a theory that is confirmed by the esoteric history of our Earth, as given in the SECRET DOCTRINE. =A0 In tracing the past history and movements of the RACES, the land masses follow the order of evolution of the RACES from 1st to the 5th.=A0 The book The SECRET DOCTRINE, does not take into account the location and fate of many islands and peninsulas since the face of the Earth has changed many times, and the Poles have been inverted several times [SD II 350 353 360 36= 8 432-3 785-6 436]. =A0 The last serious geographical and geological change occurred around 12,000= =A0 BC [SD II 8-9] and was followed by the submergence of Posedonis (9,566 BC).= =A0 Change in the elevation of the continents and islands is not always violent states the S D [SD II 787fn]. =A0 =A0 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ATLANTIS, LEMURIA, GIANTS, ETC=85. =A0 =A0 PART=A0 1=A0 -- =A0 =A0=A0 ATLANTIS,=A0=A0 LEMURIA,=A0=A0 GIANTS,=A0=A0=20 [Part II contains Geological chronology,=A0=A0=20 Theosophical Chronology, etc. ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ---------------- =A0 PART=A0 1=A0 =3D =A0 =A0 Mme. Blavatsky in the SECRET DOCTRINE,=A0 Vol. I pp. 153 - 205 outlines the early ROUNDS whereby the circling and evolving hosts of Mankind pass through the experiences of many degrees of matter until they reach in the middle, the 4th Round, the most gross.=A0 If one refers to the diagram on p. 200=A0 (SD I) it will be seen that this is the balance point were the "matter" being evolved is at its densest. =A0 We as a host of "Human" Monads have just past this mid-point.=A0 At the Mid point which occurred about 18,618,886 tears ago (SD I 150fn) the significant event called the LIGHTING UP OF MANAS (mind) occurred.=A0 In the 2nd volume of the SD, HPB reviews all these in far greater detail. =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 OUR POSITION NOW =A0 Our Round is the 4th Round and our Globe is the 4th ("D").=A0 On Globe D so far 4 "Races" have been evolved.=A0 The 3rd was named "Lemurian, " the 4th, "Atlantean," and the 5th (ours) is named "Aryan" (noble). The LIGHTING UP OF MANAS occurred during the mid-point of the 3rd Root-race (Lemurian) [SD II 154-5, 167, 79] =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS AND RACES =A0 Questions concerning the past of Mankind and the old races that had been given names such as Atlanteans, Lemurians, etc. =A0relate to time periods, and the nature of geological time=A0 measuring, also, the chronology of the SECRET DOCTRINE was asked about. =A0 In considering the past and the attempts to measure and evaluate such misty legends as appear to envelop Lemuria and Atlantis -- those periods when we used Lemurian and Atlantean bodies -- for Occultism holds that all of us -- we -- as immortal EGOS, were the same EGO-Minds that were then evolving in those periods and used those bodies.=A0 What does Volume. II of the SECRET DOCTRINE, when compared with modern Geological periods offer us =A0 It is largely =A0 1.=A0 the establishing of the facts that Esoteric and Oriental Literature and philosophy have recorded in regard to the evolution of our Earth.=A0 This covers each of the first 3 ROUNDS (3 times around the 7 GLOBES) and, specifically, it deals with the history of evolution in this, the 4th ROUND. =A0 In this 4th ROUND it deals with the most recent time period named by HPB in the SD the 4th GLOBE [see Diagram SD I 200].=A0 One must remember that these (ROUNDS, GLOBES, RACES, SUB-RACES) are measures of time. =A0 Another fact that esotericism speaks of is that there have been great changes in material (PHYSICAL), psychological (MIND, FEELINGS, EMOTIONS) and spiritual (MONADIC) development.=A0=20 =A0 These are traced by occultism and a summary is offered to us, together with explanations in Vol. 2 of the S D.=A0 We can, by reading what is offered there, learn in greater detail about our own past history.=A0 About that wh= ich occurred during those vast periods when we incarnated again and again in that =93past.=94 =A0 In S D =A0I, =A0p. 181,=A0 HPB gives facts about the three lines of Evoluti= on.=A0 She describes them and names them: =A0 1.=A0 Spiritual (or MONADIC). 2.=A0 Intellectual (or Manasic), and 3.=A0 Physical. (or material, physical bodily forms). =A0 It will be found that the 2nd Vol. of the S D focuses in still greater detail on the 4 RACES that have preceded ours in this Round. It provides information concerning our evolution there and upon the development of mind= , psyche and Soul.=A0=20 =A0 The physical side of evolution and its remains as fossils and monuments = =96 contrasting with the Scientific views of geology and archaeology are also discussed as of the time when HPB wrote which was over 120 years ago. REINCARNATION OF THE IMMORTAL MONAD =A0 It is very important to realize ( and carry this in mind during the following consideration) that the Reincarnating EGO (Atma-Buddhi-Manas) of each human being is an IMMORTAL (as a MONAD). =A0 It (WE) have been named the ETERNAL PILGRIMS.=A0=20 =A0 It [the Monad] moves from body to body, as the eras and races pass in time, and all the development of faculties are embodied in the character and the talents of each of us.=A0 In all cases there is an increment, and an improv= ing of our range of experience.=20 =A0 We can trace a continual widening of our comprehension of the Universe, and an intuitional inquiry into the causes of both our diversity and coupled with that the paradox of, our close unity.=A0=20 =A0 Ultimately, we find that the UNITY of ALL dawns on us as a potential and then as an actuality.=A0 It is a most wonderful prospect and gives to each = of us a sense of purpose, of dignity, and of an importance, which, once grasped cannot be relinquished.= =A0 We find that the brotherhood of the immortal Monads is the basis for all relationships -- there is a commonality, a sharing, of spirit, mind and matter, even though we may try to guard that which we think is solely "our own." =A0 Therefore, we, who now use 5th RACE, "Aryan Race" bodies, were the same EGO= S that used the old "Atlantean" bodies (through each of its 7-fold Races), and, the still older "Lemurian" bodies (and their 7-fold RACE developments).=A0=A0=20 =A0 When we speak of those old RACES we are speaking of ourselves when we lived in them and used them.=A0 We are trying to look into our own past history.= =A0 When we visit Cyclopean monuments, we are revisiting buildings in which we may have had a hand in their original construction or subsequent renovation and restoration down the eras of time. =A0 Our present human bodies--that we are using today--each has in its past as heredity, one or a mixture of the Sub-Races of the 5th RACE.=A0 It, the 5th Race, named "Aryan" (or Noble), is said to be about 1,050,000 years old [ S= D II 141, 144-5, 395].=A0 The Aryan race arose among the later sub-races of t= he Atlanteans, and gradually separated from that older root stock.=A0 There ar= e still human groups and tribes whose heredity can be traced to the Atlanteans; and even to the last sub-races of the Lemuro-Atlanteans.=A0 It takes vast ages for all the traits and characteristics of a great Race to die out completely.=A0 All this complexity is explained in detail in SD Vol= . II. =A0 The 3rd Race (Round 4 - ours) was named Lemurian. The 4th Race (Round 4 - ours) was named Atlantean. =A0 LEMURIA LEMURIA, as a continent, is said to have begun slipping below the ocean 4,242,352 years back (as of 1888)=A0 [ SD I 439fn]. ATLANTIS =A0 998,100 years ago the Atlantean continent began sinking [SD II 10, 141, 144, ISIS I 557, 593]=A0=20 The last Island related to Atlantis, [=93Posedonis=94] is said to have sunk 9,664=A0 BC=A0 [ML 155,=A0 SD II 5, 8, 406, 444fn, ISIS I 589-94]. =A0 In the SD we can find that a special date is drawn attention to (SD I 150 Fn).=A0 It is over 18 million years ago, when the Mind of humanity is said = to have been "lighted up."=A0 [ see SD II 167, 254-5, 70-80,=A0 SD I 150fn. ]. =A0 Since the description of the facts found narrated in ancient oriental literature and the secret books of the Occult Fraternity, runs in many ways contrary to the hypothesis and theories of our modern=A0Archaeology, one finds that much of the 2nd Volume of the SD is a great polemic, and many arguments are advanced in contrasting and opposing views:=A0 the theories of Archaeology and the FACTS of Occult Science and History. ARCHAEOLOGY, GEOLOGY, PALEONTOLOGY =A0 Our Sciences of Archaeology, Geology, Paleontology, etc... are hardly 250 years old.=A0 Looking at physical evidence only, theories were devised (based on that material evidence alone) to account for the evolution of living beings on Earth.=A0 There was, and is, an on-going conflict between "evolutionists" and "creationists." =A0 Geology provides details concerning the effect of climate on minerals, plants and the fossils of animals and humans, and archaeology employs these as clues to the timing of evolutionary events.=A0 It is all based on physical evidence.=A0 The evolution of consciousness, mind, intelligence, instinct and intuition are invisible, hence the Scientific speculations based on solely the physical evidence of change cannot possibly give an accurate view of their separate evolution. ASTRAL CONCRETIZATIONS =A0 When we look at the evidence of geological change, the S D states that in some cases we may also be looking at the concretized remains and evidence of evolutionary change in the ASTRAL periods. Thus some fossils and strata reflect traces of those ancient=A0 Astral conditions and its changes during those past eras in terms of our present highly condensed material -- which now clothes the original Astral forms.=A0 [One might consider (using an analogy) that the space between the Atomic nuclei and their peripheral electrons was even wider in those early days than they are to day, thus making the appearance of "matter" far more tenuous--"misty" to us as a perspective.=A0 As matter "condensed" so did the Astral fossils and strata.] =A0 The great difference between Occult and material Science in this, it lies in a grasp of the nature of the early periods of Astral development and its changes prior to our present material physical condition.=A0 The early Rounds of our Earth (One, Two, Three to the middle of the 4th ROUND) are evolutionary periods involving only the Astral material and its progress. =A0 Minerals, plants animals and mankind were all astral in form, and just as "solid" to each other then, in those periods, as we are today solid to one another in this present condensed "matter" that we use all the time.=A0 Physical Matter, such as we now are familiar with, and live in, became gradually more concretely manifest and visible in the 4th GLOBE of this, our=A0 ROUND (which is the 4th in the World series of Rounds).=A0 The 4th GLOBE, of this 4th ROUND, being the densest -- which is where we are, as "forms," now.). =A0 In this our 4th GLOBE, the 7 RACES which form it, also, the sub-divisions of time, recapitulate the entire process of development (as the fetus does in the womb) of the 3 earlier ROUNDS. =A0 RACES One, Two and Three (Lemurian) up to the middle of the 3rd were largely Astral forms -- of Astral matter, and these have gradually consolidated as the material conditions changed and densified around them. [ SD I 142, ] =A0 The Astral form is electro-magnetic in character and for each individual intelligence (be this mineral, plant, animal or human) there is a specific and individual "force-field" to which cooperative materials are attracted.=A0 These assist in making a coherent bodily form.=A0 The "materials" are also Monads. =A0 Thus, the Astral is held in esotericism to always precede the physical. =A0 If one considers what Science teaches us today about the constitution of the atom, we can see that if we analyze our physical body to its ultimate nature we are left with "force-fields" that are "atomic" in nature and quality.=A0 But that Power which draws specific atoms to form molecules, cells, and physical structures into a living body, is yet to be located, and subject to analysis.=A0 Yet, it exists since we are here, using our bodies and very conscious in them of both feelings and thoughts. =A0 At our present evolutionary stage, the astral form/entity is entirely interior to the physical.=A0 It forms the mold or framework on which the physical molecules, cells, and other physical structures form a coherent cooperative, in which an Intelligence (called the Human Personality) can reside.=A0 It is far more resistant to change than physical matter and serves as the continuing basis for our appearance, from childhood to old age. BRAIN =A0 There is an astral BRAIN=A0 which is the true center of Intelligence, and where memory is recorded.=A0 The physical Brain changes and alters from second to second, (as does the living matter of the whole body) and so, the Brain, is constantly renewed as it deteriorates and that which needs removal is replaced.=A0 It is the physical tool of the Astral, the True Brain. MIND =A0 In Man's form, a MIND (in addition to the feeling, sensitive Personality) also resides [SD II 167, 79-80, 254-5].=A0 Man's form has associated with it, all the impulse of a well-developed instinctual and desire nature.=A0 The Mind in man is of the Spiritual essence that inheres in Him; it is THIS (the MONAD -- the HIGHER SELF) that broods over each of our personalities as we live our daily life.=A0 We can thus see that no matter how many fossils are discovered, the astral, the mental and the spiritual heredity and evolution cannot be deduced from them. =A0 Because of this HPB, had to draw comparisons with the facts known to Occultism and those tentative theories and hypotheses that were being advanced by archaeology, and the scientific theories on evolution and heredity that were current in her day -- and which, as is usually the case, became accepted as "true" and as a "basis" on which to further pursue study and deposit fresh and additional facts as they were unearthed.=A0 [One ought to become familiar with the 3 books written by Michael Cremo and Richard Thompson regarding FORBIDDEN ARCHAEOLOGY -- which=20 uncover some of the data that archaeology has been concealed =96=20 if it did not fit those theories. This has retarded real progress.] =A0 Since HPB's time, there have been some changes brought on by fresh discoveries and technical improvements, in the views and dating of modern Science, but the basic distinction between the physical and the astral, the physical and the intellectual, and the physical and the Spiritual consciousness has never yet been derived from fossils.=A0 Nor have their evolution been traced except hypothetically. =A0 The general theories current when the S D was written over 120 years ago, are still in place, but thanks to dating techniques the antiquity of early times and geological ages have been extended and broadened.=A0 In the 2nd p= art of this essay we offer some data (in terms of times) for comparison on this= . =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 GRADUALISM =A0 During HPB's time another theory (besides Lyell's 'Gradualism') concerning evolution was also under consideration in France, based on the observations and hypothesis of the eminent scientist Georges Cuvier (1769-1832). =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 CATASTROPHISM IN EARLIER ERAS =A0 Cuvier as a Zoologist and Chancellor of the University of Paris developed from his observations of fossils found in old geological strata the concept of "Catastrophism."=A0 Great global cataclysms were seen to substantially alter the progress of evolution from time to time. A perspective is needed to view these. =A0 Geologists have revealed many great catastrophic changes that have left their mark=A0 on global geology.=A0 For example:=A0 (These catastrophic tim= e-frame estimates are made by modern Geology.) =A0 Early CAMBRIAN Age (estimated at 570 million years ago). Unicellular forms seem suddenly to give way to multicellular ones showing mineralized skeletons=A0 -- trilobites, etc... The cause for this change is not known. =A0 End of the ORDOVICIAN Period (estimated at 425 million years ago). The caus= e of a vast mass extinction that occurred then is yet to be determined.=A0 Th= is was apparently accompanied by a long ice age. =A0 Close of the DEVONIAN Age (estimated at 365 million years ago). Another mas= s extinction of species occurred -- cause yet to be determined. =A0 The PALEOZOIC Era closed (estimated at 225 million years ago). A most violent mass extinction (including the ancient trilobites) occurred leaving only about 5% of all species alive.=A0=A0 It is theorized that the supercontinent "Pangea" -- "mother" of the present continents was then in place.=A0 Water levels diminished, and sea levels lowered dramatically=A0 Massive volcanic action seems to have taken place following that. =A0 TRIASSIC Period ended=A0 (estimated at 190 million years ago). Another mass extinction of living species was observed. This may have been triggered it has been theorized, by the impact of=A0 large meteorite or a small comet in the area of Quebec's Lake Manicougan (60 mile wide crater).=A0 The subseque= nt ice age caused a massive die-off of living forms.=A0 It is theorized that t= he hypothetical link (Cotylosaurus) between the dinosaurs and the mammals and reptiles was destroyed at that time. =A0 65 million years ago another comet/meteorite was also estimated to have collided with the Earth and the resulting devastation caused the death of most of the Earth's species.=A0 This included the remaining=A0 dinosaurs an= d reptiles.=A0 A world wide layer of Iridium between 2 layers of limestone ma= y have been deposited, as Iridium, rare on Earth, is largely present in meteorites [1980, Alvarez].=A0 Mammals survived and a new distribution of fauna bloomed after this. =A0 35 million years ago saw possibly two impacts (one under the Chesapeake Bay= , and another in Siberia) -- that triggered the death of most of the animal species of the Earth, as a great ice age ensued.=A0 . =A0 This catalog causes one to observe that long periods of relative stability can be traced by geologists to be interrupted by violent events: floods or volcanism.=A0 These upheavals alter the course of Life as a whole. =A0 Archaeologists and Geologists wonder if a new era and change in quality of life is marked by the rapid development of new species.=A0 For example it i= s noticed that fossils indicate a rapid rise in the mammalian population of the Earth following the general demise of the dinosaurs some 65 million years ago. Later still, human fossils begin to be found in strata that seem= s to be around 4 million years old. =A0 In HPB's time a very grudging 40 to 100,000 years was allowed for the emergence of the human skeletal frame, presumably from that of the apes, which so closely resembled them. =A0 But the S D teaches that the Apes are the descendents of man and not its predecessors or progenitors.=A0 [ see SD, Vol. I 186, 190-1;=A0 II 87fn, 18= 9, 193, 678, 689 ] =A0 MAN IS PRIMITIVE -- APE-FORMS ARE SPECIALIZED DESCENDENTS Scientists of HPB's time like Mr. De Quatrefages and others, challenged thi= s "descent from the Apes theory" because anatomically man's skeleton can be shown to precede that of the Apes. [ S D =A0=A0II =A087fn, 287, 315fn, 665f= n, 666-8, 677-8, 680-5] =A0 To explain this:=A0 Man's skeletal form is far more primitive, and the skeletons of the Apes show specializations that could only be derived by environmental requirements placed on them.=A0 Whereas the human skeleton ca= n be shown to remain unchanged in structure no matter how old the strata may be from which his fossils may be found.=A0 The antiquity of the strata show= s no variation in man's skeleton.=A0 Further the special characteristics of various human skeletal features can be found today among us.=A0 We are also aware that today with our current highly technological civilization, there are savage tribes and races that still co-exist with us in South America, Australia, Africa, Polynesia, (not to mention the "inner-city" jungles that we have created in our large cities). BRAIN SIZE =A0 An additional factor is the size of the brain.=A0 It has to be noted that Man's cranial capacity, the average -- including those we term 'savages' -- is 100 cubic inches or more.=A0 This is about 3 times as large as the brain volume of the largest Ape, the Gorilla, which measures on the average, 31 cubic inches or less. [SD II 193fn, 661, 676, 682]. =A0 Giant human skeletons are mentioned in SD II 9 151 194-5 278-9 293fn 330 337 347-8 409 SD II 752-6 774-5=A0 Mahatma Letters, bottom of p. 2] =A0 [ Close of Part 1 of this study and report.] =A0 Part II TO FOLLOW =A0 =A0Best wishes, =A0 Dallas =A0 From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Dec 31 05:26:43 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 96152 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 13:26:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 13:26:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.64) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 13:26:42 -0000 Received: from [209.179.146.126] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CkMnD-0002Bf-54; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 08:26:28 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance:In-Reply-To; b=anvEw3Ghe7gX/yzUW0fvaWjk/A3oWVgpSvTJRcUHixfgt8snlgPEXPaUGKwJa4qm; To: , "AA-BNStudy" Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:25:58 -0800 Message-ID: <000c01c4ef3c$4c20a2e0$40deb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <20041231005329.52334.qmail@web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com> X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79e79c90debeca4fd06fd4b42ff9233a27350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.64 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.146.126 Subject: RE: Theos-World Isis and Reincarnation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 31 2004 Dear Friend: Let me place some tentative answers in the text of your posting below. Thank you, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: Cass=20 Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 4:53 PM To:=20 Subject: Re: Isis and Reincarnation Dear Dallas =20 C HPB: Even that takes place over and over again till the highest condition of humanity, as known on this earth, is attained, but not afterwards, and here is the clue to the mystery.... But once let a man be a= s far perfected by successive re-incarnations as the present race will permit= , and then his next re-incarnation will be among the early growths of the nex= t higher world, where the earliest growths are far higher than the highest here. CASS: This I understand takes place when we have reached perfection. At the end of the 7th round. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB It may take place earlier depending on effort and acquired "merit" See S D I 161-2 "Those who knew that a Round was preceded and followed by a long Pralaya, a pause of rest which created an impassable gulf between two Rounds until the time came for a renewed cycle of life, could not understand the "fallacy" o= f talking about "fifth and sixth Rounders" in our Fourth Round. Gautama Buddha, it was held, was a Sixth-Rounder, Plato and some other great philosophers and minds, "Fifth-Rounders."=20 How could it be? One Master taught and affirmed that there were such "Fifth-Rounders" even now on Earth; and though understood to say that mankind was yet "in the Fourth Round," in another place he seemed to say that we were in the Fifth. To this an "apocalyptic answer" was returned by another Teacher:-"A few drops of rain do not make a Monsoon, though they presage it." . . .=20 "No, we are not in the Fifth Round, but Fifth Round men have been coming in for the last few thousand years." This was worse than the riddle of the Sphinx! Students of Occultism subjected their brains to the wildest work of speculation. For a considerable time they tried to outvie OEdipus and reconcile the two statements. And as the Masters kept as silent as the ston= y Sphinx herself, they were accused of inconsistency, "contradiction," and "discrepancies."... the Orientalists have made a jumble of the Hindu exoteric philosophy, and the Theosophists were now doing the same with regard to esoteric teachings. To this day it is evident that the latter have utterly failed to understand the meaning of the term "Fifth and Sixth Rounders." But it is simply this:= =20 every "Round" brings about a new development and even an entire change in the mental, psychic, spiritual and physical constitution of man, all these principles evoluting on an ever ascending scale. Thence it follows that those persons who, like Confucius and Plato, belonged psychically, mentally and spiritually to the higher planes of evolution, were in our Fourth Round as the average man will be in the Fifth Round, whose mankind is destined to find itself, on this scale of Evolution, immensely higher than is our present humanity.=20 Similarly Gautama Buddha-Wisdom incarnate-was still higher and greater than all the men we have mentioned, who are called Fifth Rounders, while Buddha and Sankaracharya are termed Sixth Rounders, allegorically. Thence again th= e concealed wisdom of the remark, pronounced at the time "evasive"-that a few drops of rain do not make the Monsoon, though they presage it."=20 =20 In the S D it is hinted that the DHYANI BUDDHAS represent the highest leve= l of spiritual advancement mentioned. [ See S D I 48, 108, 114, 213, 267, 471-2, 571-4, II 34, ] It is possible that the "Initiator," named "GREA= T SACRIFICE" may be such an one. S D I 207-8. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C HPB: We will now present a few fragments of this mysterious doctrine of re-Incarnation--as distinct from metempsychosis--which we have from an authority. Re-Incarnation, i.e., the appearance of the same individual--or rather, of his astral monad--twice on the same planet is not a rule in nature; it is an exception, like the teratological phenomenon of a two-headed infant.=20=20 There is a mighty difference in our Occult doctrine between an impersonal Individuality, and an individual Personality. C.C.M. will not be reincarnated; nor will he be in his next re-birth C.C.M., but quite a new being, born of the thoughts and deeds of C.C.M.: his own creation, the chil= d and fruit of his present life, the effect of the causes he is now producing= . CASS: HPB talking about the "astral monad" or the "same personality" re-incarnating on the same planet. As the personality the lower, disintegrates at death. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB "PERSONALITY" to me implies the conjoined 4 lower "principles" [physical body, astral body, prana, kama] This is animated by the lower aspect of Manas called "Kama-Manas" or, the "lower Mind / Manas."=20=20 "INDIVIDUALITY" is made up of the Higher aspect of Manas, plus Buddhi and Atma. ATMA-BUDDHI is the ETERNAL MONAD, and Manas is the link to the PERSONALITY in every incarnation.=20=20 "Important:" There is no change of "planet" until all the karma connected with our Earth is exhausted. No aimless, or desire-propelled "wanderings." Manas, acting as a "bridge" between the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS (of the MONAD) is necessarily dual, one part (the Higher) being Buddhi-Manas, and the other (the Lower) being Kama-Manas. It is Kama-Manas that is active in all of us in the waking condition of life, and in it we make our free, voluntary choices. The exercise of this independence causes us to rise or descend th= e ladder of being. The Intuitive quality and faculty of our Buddhi-Manas is always our friend and guide to making superior moral and virtuous decisions= . Its importance is amplified by active, (not passive) meditation. In such a case, it is always ACTIVE, and, is a lawful, a will-desire aimed at achieving the optimum impersonal and universally acceptable decision for an= y situation.=20=20 [ That is how I understand it. ] If the body is destroyed, or dies, all the skandhas are held in the ASTRAL BODY for a time proportionate to the "karma" of that person / monad. [There are a number of these, I can send some quotes illustrating these if desired.]=20 Then, as in the case of natural death, after the higher and meritorious aspects of memory inherent in the life just lived are sifted and moved to Devachan with the Monad, the astral corpse of the personality having no further support is allowed to disintegrate on the astral plane.=20 =20 The only cases where a "Personality / w. same ASTRAL Body " may reincarnate is when a child or young person who has not generated any causes that would require a Devachan dies or is killed. But this is rare. Some are on record. When the whole human "dies" -- i.e.: the body can no longer support organized life, the whole INDIVIDUALITY and PERSONALITY together go through the normal after-death procedure. The PERSONALITY is disintegrated, and on the reincarnation of the INDIVIDUALITY (under Karma) a fresh PERSONALITY i= s assembled for its use (under its Karma) by Nature and the instrumentality of the parents.=20=20 This has occurred thousands of times for each of us in the course of our evolution. Now, thanks to THEOSOPHY we are being given a vision of the inner workings of these great interlocking and always cooperative universal Laws.=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 C Having enjoyed a time of bliss, proportionate to his deserts, the new personal Ego gets re-incarnated into a personality when the remembrance of his previous Egoship, of course, fades out, and he can "communicate" no longer with his fellowmen on the planet he has left forever, as the individual he was there known to be.=20 CASS: ON THE PLANET HE HAS LEFT FOREVER. This is where my quandary is, if we are only 3000 years in Devachan, say I die tomorrow, do I reincarnate on Venus? Will my karma attract those around me to Venus also? I am using Venus as a label for a place I know not where. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB First, the devachanic period is not fixed in terms of our time, but depends (in terms of time) on our Karma and the merit we may have acquired during any one life. Devachan is a period of assimilation and reflection. HPB says up to 10 centuries, but places the average [The KEY TO THEOSOPHY. Pp. 132, 145, 170, 191-2] at 15. Since our place of work is here on Earth and our Karma acting as LAW, bind= s us to that, so, there are no spatial, desire-motivated, or casual wandering= s !" That would be inexplicable under Law. It is here on earth where (under joint and common Karma) we all meet and work again and strive to improve our natures.=20=20 [This is where Sinnett got confused, and tried to materialize it -- setting the physical planets Mars and Mercury as pats of the Earth's program -- but Karma does not allow such things -- but in the S D HPB sets it straight.= =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C After numberless re-incarnations, and on numerous planets and in various spheres, a time will come, at the end of the Maha-Yug or great cycle, when each individuality will have become so spiritualised that, before its final absorption into the One All, its series of past personal existences will marshal themselves before him in a retrospective order like the many days o= f some one period of a man's existence. CASS: We get to see the whole picture, every life, every personality, because we have achieved perfection, and then I take it we have a choice to either remain as part of human chain, or we can be assimilated into Nirvana for eternity (perfect bliss) or we can choose to become a lower god of another planetary system? What are your ideas? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB Subba Row in an early article in THEOSOPHIST implies there is such a vast review -- when we will have acquired the equanimity and steadfastness of nature to withstand some of the things we may have done in past personalities. [Have you read HPB's -- KARMIC VISIONS ? -- It gives an illustration of this.]=20 I can well see how the phrasing in the early days of the correspondence wit= h Sinnett, just after ISIS UNVEILED was published, as to : ..numberless re-incarnations, and on numerous planets and in various spheres, a time wil= l come, at the end of the Maha-Yug or great cycle, when each individuality will have become so spiritualised ..." -- it is this that was corrected later and made clearer.=20 My quotes are always from the "original texts." In some cases, I believe, later editors took the liberty of altering the original texts in their new editions of some of the books and articles, to read differently from the wa= y in which HPB had originally phrased them.=20 This always has to be checked out as it adds to confusion.=20=20 In dealing with differences between S D and the MAHATMA LETTERS there are explanatory articles published that handle these matters, and they are reprinted in the Blavatsky: COLLECTED WORKS volumes. There are quite a few articles dealing with the Mars / Mercury confusion an= d if you wish I can give you their location, or quote them in full to you. ----------------------- The final question as to whether (when and if we attain to Buddhaship) we remain to help mankind, or retire for "bliss and rest" in Nirvana, is asked and answered at the end of The VOICE OF THE SILENCE [pp. 74-8, also the footnote on p. 47 is important as to PRATYEKHA BUDDHAS -- I quote it below. " Self-doomed to live through future Kalpas, unthanked and unperceived by man; wedged as a stone with countless other stones which form the "Guardian Wall", (2) such is thy future if the seventh gate thou passest. Built by th= e hands of many Masters of Compassion, raised by their tortures, by their blood cemented, it shields mankind, since man is man, protecting it from further and far greater misery and sorrow. Withal man sees it not, will not perceive it, nor will he heed the word of Wisdom . . . for he knows it not. But thou hast heard it, thou knowest all, O thou of eager guileless Soul. . . . and thou must choose. Then hearken yet again. On Sowan's Path, O Srotapatti, thou art secure. Aye, on that Marga, where nought but =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D Footnotes (2) The "Guardian Wall" or the "Wall of Protection." It is taught that the accumulated efforts of long generations of Yogis, Saints and Adepts, especially of the Nirmanakayas-have created, so to say, a wall of protectio= n around mankind, which wall shields mankind invisibly from still worse evils= . ----------------------------------------- 75 darkness meets the weary pilgrim, where torn by thorns the hands drip blood= , the feet are cut by sharp unyielding flints, and Mara wields his strongest arms-there lies a great reward immediately beyond. =20 Calm and unmoved the Pilgrim glideth up the stream that to Nirvana leads. H= e knoweth that the more his feet will bleed, the whiter will himself be washed. He knoweth well that after seven short and fleeting births Nirvana will be his . . . Such is the Dhyana Path, the haven of the Yogi, the blessed goal that Srotapattis crave. Not so when he hath crossed and won the Aryahata Path. (1) . . . . . . . There Klesha is destroyed for ever, Tanha's roots (3) torn out.=20 But stay, Disciple . . . Yet, one word. Canst thou destroy divine COMPASSION? Compassion is no attribute. It is the LAW ------------------------------------------------ 76 of LAWS-eternal Harmony, Alaya's SELF; a shoreless universal essence, the light of everlasting Right, and fitness of all things, the law of love eternal. The more thou dost become at one with it, thy being melted in its BEING, th= e more thy Soul unites with that which IS, the more thou wilt become COMPASSION ABSOLUTE. (1) Such is the Arya Path, Path of the Buddhas of perfection. Withal, what mean the sacred scrolls which make thee say? "OM! I believe it is not all the Arhats that get of the Nirvanic Path the sweet fruition." "OM! I believe that the Nirvana-Dharma is entered not by all the Buddhas". (2) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Footnotes (1) This "compassion" must not be regarded in the same light as "God, the divine love" of the Theists.=20 Compassion stands here as an abstract, impersonal law whose nature, being absolute Harmony, is thrown into confusion by discord, suffering and sin. ------------------------------------ 77 "Yea; on the Arya Path thou art no more Srotapatti, thou art a Bodhisattva. (1) The stream is cross'd. 'Tis true thou hast a right to Dharmakaya vesture; but Sambogakaya is greater than a Nirvanee, and greater still is a Nirmanakaya-the Buddha of Compassion. (2) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Footnotes (1) A Bodhisattva is, in the hierarchy, less than a "perfect Buddha." In th= e exoteric parlance these two are very much confused. Yet the innate and righ= t popular perception, owing to that self-sacrifice, has placed a Bodhisattva higher in its reverence than a Buddha. (2) This same popular reverence calls "Buddhas of Compassion" those Bodhisattvas who, having reached the rank of an Arhat (i.e., having completed the fourth or seventh Path), refuse to pass into the Nirvanic state or "don the Dharmakaya robe and cross to the other shore," as it woul= d then become beyond their power to assist men even so little as Karma permits. They prefer to remain invisibly (in Spirit, so to speak) in the world, and contribute toward man's salvation by influencing them to follow the Good Law, i.e., lead them on the Path of Righteousness. It is part of the exoteric Northern Buddhism to honour all such great characters as Saints, and to offer even prayers to them, as the Greeks and Catholics do t= o their Saints and Patrons; on the other hand, the esoteric teachings countenance no such thing. There is a great difference between the two teachings. The exoteric layman hardly knows the real meaning of the word Nirmanakaya-hence the confusion and inadequate explanations of the Orientalists. For example Schlagintweit believes that Nirmanakaya-body, means the physical form assumed by the Buddhas when they incarnate on earth-"the least sublime of their earthly encumbrances" (vide Buddhism in Tibet)-and he proceeds to give an entirely false view on the subject. The real teaching is, however, this: The three Buddhic bodies or forms are styled 1. Nirmanakaya. 2. Sambhogakaya. 3. Dharmakaya. The first is that ethereal form which one would assume when leaving his physical he would appear in his astral body-having in addition all the knowledge of an Adept. The Bodhisattva develops it in himself as he proceed= s on the Path. Having reached the goal and refused its fruition, he remains o= n Earth, as an Adept; and when he dies, instead of going into Nirvana, he remains in that glorious body he has woven for himself, invisible to uninitiated mankind, to watch over and protect it. Sambhogakaya is the same, but with the additional lustre of "three perfections," one of which is entire obliteration of all earthly concerns. The Dharmakaya body is that of a complete Buddha, i.e., no body at all, but an ideal breath: Consciousness merged in the Universal Consciousness, or Soul devoid of every attribute. Once a Dharmakaya, an Adept or Buddha leave= s behind every possible relation with, or thought for this earth.=20 ---------------------------------------- Voice, p. 47 footnote (1) PRATYEKA BUDDHAS are those Bodhisattvas who strive after and often reac= h the Dharmakaya robe after a series of lives.=20 Caring nothing for the woes of mankind or to help it, but only for their ow= n bliss, they enter Nirvana and- disappear from the sight and the hearts of men.=20 In Northern Buddhism a "Pratyeka Buddha" is a synonym of spiritual Selfishness. ---------------------------------------- Thus, to be enabled to help humanity, an Adept who has won the right to Nirvana, "renounces the Dharmakaya body" in mystic parlance; keeps, of the Sambhogakaya, only the great and complete knowledge, and remains in his Nirmanakaya body.=20 The Esoteric School teaches that Gautama Buddha with several of his Arhats is such a Nirmanakaya, higher than whom, on account of the great renunciation and sacrifice to mankind there is none known. ----------------------------------- 78 Now bend thy head and listen well, O Bodhisattva-Compassion speaks and saith: "Can there be bliss when all that lives must suffer? Shalt thou be saved and hear the whole world cry?" Now thou hast heard that which was said. Thou shalt attain the seventh step and cross the gate of final knowledge bu= t only to wed woe-if thou would'st be Tathagata, follow upon thy predecessor'= s steps, remain unselfish till the endless end. Thou art enlightened-Choose thy way. * * * * * * * * * ------------------------------------------------- 79 Behold, the mellow light that floods the Eastern sky. In signs of praise both heaven and earth unite. And from the four-fold manifested Powers a chant of love ariseth, both from the flaming Fire and flowing Water, and from sweet-smelling Earth and rushing Wind. Hark! . . . from the deep unfathomable vortex of that golden light in which the Victor bathes, ALL NATURE'S wordless voice in thousand tones ariseth to proclaim: JOY UNTO YE, O MEN OF MYALBA. (1) A PILGRIM HATH RETURNED BACK "FROM THE OTHER SHORE." A NEW ARHAN (2) IS BORN. . . . Peace to all beings. (3) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 DTB There is an implication that "Nirvanees" are forced by Karmic Law to return to reincarnate after a very long "rest." See this: [S D II 79-80 ] "The Barhishad, though possessed of creative fire, were devoid of the highe= r MAHAT-mic element. Being on a level with the lower principles - those which precede gross objective matter - they could only give birth to the outer man, or rather to the model of the physical, the astral man. Thus, though w= e see them intrusted with the task by Brahma (the collective Mahat or Universal Divine Mind), the "Mystery of Creation" is repeated on Earth, onl= y in an inverted sense, as in a mirror.=20 It is those who are unable to create the spiritual immortal man, who projec= t the senseless model (the Astral) of the physical Being; and, as will be seen, it was those who would not multiply, who sacrificed themselves to the good and salvation of Spiritual Humanity.=20 For, to complete the septenary man, to add to his three lower principles an= d cement them with the spiritual Monad - which could never dwell in such a form otherwise than in an absolutely latent state - two connecting principles are needed: Manas and Kama.=20 This requires a living Spiritual Fire of the middle principle from the fift= h and third states of Pleroma. But this fire is the possession of the Triangles, not of the (perfect) Cubes, which symbolize the Angelic Beings:* the former having from the first creation got hold of it and being said to have appropriated it for themselves, as in the allegory of Prometheus.=20 These are the active, and therefore - in Heaven - no longer "pure" Beings. They have become the independent and free Intelligences, shown in every Theogony as fighting for that independence and freedom, and hence - in the ordinary sense - "rebellious to the divine passive law."=20 These are then those "Flames" (the Agnishwatta) who, as shown in Sloka 13, "remain behind" instead of going along with the others to create men on Earth. But the true esoteric meaning is that most of them were destined to incarnate as the Egos of the forthcoming crop of Mankind.=20 The human Ego is neither Atman nor Buddhi, but the higher Manas: the intellectual fruition and the efflorescence of the intellectual self-conscious Egotism - in the higher spiritual sense. The ancient works refer to it as Karana Sarira on the plane of Sutratma, which is the golden thread on which, like beads, the various personalities of this higher Ego are strung.=20 RETURNING NIRVANEES If the reader were told, as in the semi-esoteric allegories, that these Beings were returning Nirvanees, from preceding Maha-Manvantaras - ages of incalculable duration which have rolled away in the Eternity, a still more incalculable time ago - he would hardly understand the text correctly; whil= e some Vedantins might say: "This is not so; the Nirvanee can never return"; which is true during the Manvantara he belongs to, and erroneous where Eternity is concerned.=20 For it is said in the Sacred Slokas:=20 "The thread of radiance which is imperishable and dissolves only in Nirvana= , re-emerges from it in its integrity on the day when the Great Law calls all things back into action. . . ." S D II 79-80 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Cass I hope this proves to be of help Best wishes, Dallas From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Dec 31 07:40:49 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 9629 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 15:40:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 15:40:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m27.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.8) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 15:40:47 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.d5.1e994062 (4560) for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:39:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:39:05 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.8 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World A Question for the New Year X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/31/04 1:01:22 AM Central Standard Time, prmoliveira@yahoo.com writes: << If evolution is one of the inherent, universal laws in our universe, does it also apply to the Wisdom Tradition? >> If it doesn't we are in deep doo doo. Chuck the Heretic From dlriver@nc.rr.com Fri Dec 31 09:52:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3071 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 17:52:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 17:52:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.49) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 17:52:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n20.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2004 17:52:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.119] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2004 17:52:31 -0000 X-Sender: dlriver@nc.rr.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98791 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 14:37:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 14:37:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 14:37:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2004 14:37:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.159] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2004 14:37:29 -0000 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 14:37:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1598 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.41 From: "dee1387" X-Originating-IP: 66.57.34.83 Subject: Newbie here X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=154973574 X-Yahoo-Profile: dee1387 X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 31 Dec 2004 17:52:28 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.49 Hello Theos-Talk, My friends call me Dee, living in Fayetteville, NC. I'm 31 years old and I had lost myself somewhere and I have been on a mission to discover me for the past year. A few months ago I discovered - or finally come to terms - that one of the reasons that I'm having trouble with discovering myself is that I have a form of depression. But for the past year or so I've been conducting my search from a spiritual perspective - and a lot of therapy sessions. In the past year I purchased several books such as, different versions of the Bible, the Septuagint, the Gnostic Bible, books on paganism, I Ching, The Idiot's Guide to World Religions, meditation, etc. Every time I went into the book store, there was this one particular 2 book volume set that, for some reason, I was drawn to it. I had no idea what it was or what it was about. Finally, one day after several trips to the book store, and having some sort a compelling feeling towards the books every time I walked down that isle, I purchased the set , The Secret Doctrine. I read the introduction and part of the first chapter. That's how I discovered that there is such a thing as Theosophy. I had a difficult time understanding what H.P.B. was saying, a lot of terms were foriegn to me so I went back to the store and bought Isis Unveiled, hoping that will clue me in to what every thing is about. So here I am, joined a group in hopes of learning more about Theosophy and maybe find some folks in my area that might be interested in meeting up some time. Have a Happy New Year, Dee From dlriver@nc.rr.com Fri Dec 31 09:52:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20569 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 17:52:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 17:52:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.45) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 17:52:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n16.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2004 17:52:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.145] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2004 17:52:43 -0000 X-Sender: dlriver@nc.rr.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66245 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 16:38:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 16:38:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com) (24.25.9.100) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 16:38:23 -0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (rdu57-34-083.nc.rr.com [66.57.34.83]) by ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBVGcGKj015031 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:38:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200412311638.iBVGcGKj015031@ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com> Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.299 [265.6.7]); Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:38:21 -0500 To: Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:38:21 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcTuMuyw+kcWcz5KS1i9fNFp26XU2wBI+U4g In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 24.25.9.100 From: "Dee" Subject: RE: Theos-World WHO'S KEEPING THE LID ON TOM? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=154973574 X-Yahoo-Profile: dee1387 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 31 Dec 2004 17:52:38 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.45 I believe you can find the Gospel of Thomas in the Gnostic Bible. Dee -----Original Message----- From: silva_cass [mailto:silva_cass@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 12:46 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World WHO'S KEEPING THE LID ON TOM? Have just been watching a program on TV which said that the Gospel of St Thomas contradicts the Gospels of MMLJ. It's authenticity they are saying is within 30 years of Christ's teachings. It is done in parable form and states that Jesus was a Master and not a Messiah, he did not raise Lazarus from the dead, nor did Jesus resurrect himself. Isn't it ironic that this Gospel should come from doubting Thomas??? Anyone no where I can read it? Cass Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this outgoing message. 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Version: 7.0.299 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 12/30/2004 From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Fri Dec 31 10:12:14 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51196 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 18:12:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 18:12:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.37) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 18:12:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2004 18:12:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.158] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2004 18:12:11 -0000 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 18:12:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 9288 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.37 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Comparing Deveney with Algeo X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Comparing Deveney with Algeo In his review of THE LETTERS OF H.P. BLAVATSKY, Volume I, Mr. John Patrick Deveney wrote: ============================================ [Dr. Algeo] ... states that, for unspecified reasons, none of Cooper's work could be used "directly," and that even his transcriptions of texts were not used because they were "not accurate." This is a surprising charge, directed as it is toward a person known for his meticulous work and now unavailable to defend himself. [as quoted from THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY, July 2004 issue.] ============================================ This Deveney excerpt is also quoted in a recent FOHAT editorial. Let us quote from pp. xiv-xv of Algeo's preface selected excerpts for comparison with Deveney's above statements: ============================================= ...Boris de Zirkoff . . . gathered all letters [of Blavatsky's] of whose existence he knew and tentatively dated them. . . . . . . de Zirkoff left ... [this manuscript of HPB's letters]. . . . to the Theosophical Society in America. . . . [Later] . . . the Theosophical Publishing House [Wheaton] asked [John] Cooper to become the editor of all the letters and passed on to him COPIES of all the letters that de Zirkoff had collected.... [caps added] John [Cooper]... located a number of additional letters unknown to Boris de Zirkoff because of their obscurity or because they had come to light only after Boris's death. . . After John Cooper's death, it became clear that, for several reasons, his work on the letters could not be used directly. One of those reasons was the discovery that the texts of many of the letters - both those de Zirkoff had collected but not fully edited and those Cooper had added to the known corpus - were not accurate. . . . John Algeo as ... [the] new editor . . . [decided that] all of the texts had to be regathered to assure their accuracy and fidelity to the best original sources. That task was performed personally by John and Adele Algeo for most of the letters. . . . ========================================== Ok, let me again quote Mr. Deveney's statement and follow that with a specific statement by Dr. Algeo: Deveney: ================================================== [Dr. Algeo] ... states that, for unspecified reasons, none of Cooper's work could be used "directly," and that even his transcriptions of texts were not used because they were "not accurate." This is a surprising charge, directed as it is toward a person known for his meticulous work and now unavailable to defend himself.[as quoted in Paul Johnson's excerpts] ================================================ Algeo: ================================================= After John Cooper's death, it became clear that, for several reasons, his work on the letters could not be used directly. One of those reasons was the discovery that the texts of many of the letters - both those de Zirkoff had collected but not fully edited and those Cooper had added to the known corpus - were not accurate. . . . ================================================ Notice Deveney's statement: "HIS [John Cooper's] transcriptions of texts were not used because they were "not accurate." ============================================== This statement is incomplete and does not tell the whole story. Algeo had specifically written: ================================================ . . . the discovery that the texts of MANY of the letters - BOTH those de Zirkoff had collected but not fully edited and those Cooper had added to the known corpus - were not accurate. . . . ================================================ When Deveney writes: "HIS [John Cooper's] transcriptions of texts . . . were 'not accurate.' " the reader might conclude that Cooper had transcribed ALL the letters and that Algeo was stating that ALL of Cooper's transcriptions of the letters were not accurate. This is not what Algeo actually wrote. Having personally in 1987 or 1986 gone to The TS in Wheaton, Illinois and having been given access to the archives, I carefully went through de Zirkoff's notebooks in which he had filed chonologically all of his own transcriptions of HPB's letters. Boris had typed or had someone else type up a transcription. I can see how errors could have crept in. Considering all the letters collected by BOTH de Zirkoff and Cooper I would estimate that de Zirkoff probably transcribed into his manuscript about 85 % of the total number of extant letters. This would mean that Cooper possibly transcribed about 15% of the total number. As far as I can tell from studying Cooper's dissertation (available in microfiche), it appears to me that Cooper simply incorporated into his text the transcriptions provided in the copies given to him by TPH Wheaton. That is, all the copies from Boris' notebooks in the Wheaton archives. As far as I know from phone conversations with John Cooper over several years, he did NOT have the photocopies or microfilm reproductions of many of HPB's ORIGINAL handwritten letters therefore he would not have been in a position to check the accuracy of the transcription Boris had made. I talked on the phone with John Cooper about 2 weeks before he died. He was all greasy from working on a tractor or some piece of equipment. I had to call him back after he cleaned up. We talked about him being a grease monkey and had a good chuckle. I can still remember his laughter. At that point I told him I was going to send him in a month or two a box of microfilm containing rare periodicals and newspapers that would be relevant to HPB's letters and also was planning to send him microfilm of many of HPB's original handwritten letters. And focusing on the transcriptions John Cooper had made, there are a number of ways errors could have crept in. Deveney writes: =================================================== This is a surprising charge, directed as it is toward a person known for his meticulous work and now unavailable to defend himself. ======================================================= Yes John was meticulous but that doesn't mean transcription mistakes couldn't crept into John's manuscript. I am right now trancribing 3 of HPB's unknown letters which I recently discovered. I have gone thru several revisions of the transcriptions and each time I find where I made errors. It is hard to be meticulous and one probably has to revise and revise and hope that the final product is as accurate as humanly possible. As far as I know, the manuscript John sent to Wheaton before his death was not some final and finished production ready to go to press. John had told me before he died that he wanted me to have a copy of what he had so far worked on and wanted me to go over it with a fine tooth comb looking for mistakes, gaps, etc. and make suggestions as to how the manuscript could be improved and how his own notes and introductory material could be improved. In other words it was a working draft copy and no doubt if John had lived he would have revised it probably a number of times before the volume would have been published by TPH Wheaton. He also wanted Jerry Hejka-Edkins to have a copy and also provide feedback and comments. Furthermore, I remember when Dr. Algeo wrote to me and told me that he had discovered that many of the transcriptions were not accurate. This was after John Cooper had died. What was Dr. Algeo suppose to do? Ignore the mistakes. >From the very beginning of my collaboration with Dr. Algeo on this project, he was insistent that the transcriptions be as close to the originals as humanly possible. With no corrrections or editing of HPB's words. Later I read what Gregory Tillett was writing on Theos-Talk and also in an article in FOHAT. On Theos-Talk, Gregory Tillett wrote: ===================================================== John deliberately had this clause included in the contract. He was (as he told me on several occasions, including on the night before his death, and as he told others)concerned that attempts might be made to inappropriately edit, 'censor' or amend the text of the HPB correspondence. =========================================================== And there is another relevant quote on this same subject in Tillett's letter published in FOHAT. Several Theosophists apparently took this "possibility" and spread the rumor that Dr. Algeo was inappropriately editing, censoring or amending the text of HPB's letters! Even in the last 9 months since Vol. I was published, Frank R. on this very forum brought up this possibility and said a number of things which simply were inaccurate and not true. Transcribing an accurate typed copy of an HPB letter is not easy! In the last 6 months I sent Dr. Algeo a copy of a 12 pp. handwritten letter by HPB I discovered that Boris and John knew nothing about. Dr. Algeo and his wife did a typed transcription of the letter and sent it back to me. They said to see if I could find any mistakes and also to see if I could make out what several words were. I am still trying to decipher what some of these words are! I guess I've rambled on enough but I wanted to give a fuller picture of what Mr. Deveney was trying to write about. Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Fri Dec 31 10:39:55 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 96200 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 18:39:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 18:39:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.36) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 18:39:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2004 18:39:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.119] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2004 18:39:54 -0000 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 18:39:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2519 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.36 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Hello Dee: Re: Newbie here X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Hello Dee, You might find the following suggested reading helpful in understanding H.P. Blavatsky and Theosophy. Two online articles that give you a concise overview of Theosophy are as follows: A Brief Overview of Theosophy http://blavatskyarchives.com/santuccitheosophy.htm Basic Ideas of Theosophy http://blavatskyarchives.com/2scope.htm For one good book giving an overview of Theosophy as given by HPB and the Mahatmas, see: http://blavatskyarchives.com/farthingdcam.htm And for more introductory material see: Recommended Titles about H.P.B., the Mahatmas & Theosophy http://blavatskyarchives.com/introductory.htm If you have any specific questions let me know and I'm sure other people on this list can offer suggestions. Daniel BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER http://hpb.cc --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "dee1387" wrote: > > > Hello Theos-Talk, > My friends call me Dee, living in Fayetteville, NC. I'm 31 years > old and I had lost myself somewhere and I have been on a mission to > discover me for the past year. A few months ago I discovered - or > finally come to terms - that one of the reasons that I'm having > trouble with discovering myself is that I have a form of > depression. But for the past year or so I've been conducting my > search from a spiritual perspective - and a lot of therapy sessions. > In the past year I purchased several books such as, different > versions of the Bible, the Septuagint, the Gnostic Bible, books on > paganism, I Ching, The Idiot's Guide to World Religions, meditation, > etc. Every time I went into the book store, there was this one > particular 2 book volume set that, for some reason, I was drawn to > it. I had no idea what it was or what it was about. Finally, one > day after several trips to the book store, and having some sort a > compelling feeling towards the books every time I walked down that > isle, I purchased the set , The Secret Doctrine. I read the > introduction and part of the first chapter. That's how I discovered > that there is such a thing as Theosophy. I had a difficult time > understanding what H.P.B. was saying, a lot of terms were foriegn to > me so I went back to the store and bought Isis Unveiled, hoping that > will clue me in to what every thing is about. > So here I am, joined a group in hopes of learning more about > Theosophy and maybe find some folks in my area that might be > interested in meeting up some time. > > > > Have a Happy New Year, > Dee From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Fri Dec 31 11:37:54 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70090 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 19:37:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 19:37:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.48) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 19:37:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n19.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2004 19:37:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.146] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2004 19:37:53 -0000 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:37:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 138 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.48 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: 2004 Indian Ocean Earthquake: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell 2004 Indian Ocean Earthquake >From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake Daniel From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Dec 31 11:40:44 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 9527 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 19:40:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 19:40:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gatekeeper.look.ca) (207.136.80.8) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 19:40:43 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.191] (helo=idirect.ca) by gatekeeper.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CkSdd-0007Za-Rq for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:40:42 +0000 Message-ID: <41D5ABFA.8040901@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 14:43:54 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk References: <000a01c4ef2e$22784d20$40deb3d1@DALLAS> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on phi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.8 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Part 2 -- Ancient Cataclysms X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn W.Dallas TenBroeck wrote, in part: > Dec 31 2004 > > Part 2 -- ANCIENT CATACLYSMS > Dallas, thanks for all that. What about the theory that the continent of Antarctica may have shifted on the lithosphere (3 mile thick outer crust of the globe) southward from a previously far more northerly position where it was shown in copies of ancient maps (which in turn were copies of copies, etc, apparently) to have been uncovered by ice, showing rivers, mountains and islands. The maps I'm referring to are: Piri Reis, Oronteus Finaeus, Mercator, Buache. Also, as might be well known, evidence of trees have been discovered under the ice in Antarctica. Apparently the north pole used to be over the Hudson's Bay area as recently as the Ice Age, which meant that much of Antarctica would have been temperate as the south pole would have then been much farther towards the Pacific side of the continent. So I'm wondering if there has been a series of southward shifts, over hundreds of thousands or millions of years (possibly along with tectonic shifts) of the land masses now know as Antarctica. Apparently there are theories to the effect that the build-up of ice in the poles triggers shifts of various kinds. For more info on those theories, see Graham Hancock's FINGERPRINTS OF THE GODS. Speculatively, Mauri From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Fri Dec 31 13:19:23 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 90717 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 21:19:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 21:19:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.42) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 21:19:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2004 21:19:20 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.130] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2004 21:19:20 -0000 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 21:18:38 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1079 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.42 From: "prmoliveira" X-Originating-IP: 150.101.201.135 Subject: Re: Newbie here X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617 X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "dee1387" wrote: > So here I am, joined a group in hopes of learning more about > Theosophy and maybe find some folks in my area that might be > interested in meeting up some time. Hello Dee, One of the books that many students have found helpful as an introduction to the study of HPB's works is "Foundations of Esoteric Philosophy", compiled by Ianthe H. Hoskins. You can find it online here: http://www.tphta.ws/TPH_FNXP.HTM Ianthe, who was an earnest student of HPB's writings, put together in this book passages from "The Secret Doctrine" and "Isis Unveilled" which apparently HPB herself considered important to the understanding of the teaching she was trying to present. Ianthe was a former General Secretary of the TS in England and passed away on the eve of September 11, 2001. In her personality she combined an ability for an in-depth study of Theosophy with a delightful sense of humour. Wishing you all the best in your studies and look forward to your participation in theos-talk. Pedro From ramadoss@gbronline.com Fri Dec 31 14:45:28 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66617 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 22:45:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 22:45:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.12) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 22:45:27 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.97.166]) by mta2.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 26288989 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:43:53 -0600 CST Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20041231163523.03129640@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:45:28 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4B746719 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 69.9.90.12 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World Comparing Deveney with Algeo X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 There is a simple solution. If the originals can be scanned and made available on the Internet, anyone interested in transcribing and comparing with the published transcription can come up with a definitive answer letter by letter; thus any *censoring* either real or accidental can be identified and discussed. (However one cannot make much money on Internet publishing.) Let us not forget that once any one is part of any organizational structure, there are going to be direct or indirect pressures during publishing. (We all know of the 1900 letter from Master KH was redacted for one reason or another and full unredacated letter was available only several decades later and published by another publication.) mkr At 06:12 PM 12/31/04 +0000, Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: >Comparing Deveney with Algeo > >In his review of THE LETTERS OF H.P. >BLAVATSKY, Volume I, Mr. John Patrick Deveney >wrote: > >============================================ > >[Dr. Algeo] ... states >that, for unspecified reasons, none >of Cooper's work could be used "directly," >and that even his transcriptions of texts >were not used because they were "not >accurate." This is a surprising charge, >directed as it is toward a person known >for his meticulous work and now unavailable >to defend himself. >[as quoted from THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY, >July 2004 issue.] > >============================================ ------------------rest deleted ---------------------- -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 12/30/04 From ramadoss@gbronline.com Fri Dec 31 14:50:00 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63842 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 22:50:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 22:50:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.12) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 22:50:00 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.97.166]) by mta2.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 26289470 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:48:26 -0600 CST Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20041231164720.090883d0@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:50:38 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4B746719 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 69.9.90.12 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World Newbie here X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 Hi, Welcome to the group. Glad to hear how you found about theosophy. One of the best FAQ's on theosophy is a book by HP Blavatsky - "Key to Theosophy". You can get a copy on-line or buy it from a bookstore or ebay. I am sure it would answer a lot of questions. This forum has participants from all over the world and all are student of theosophy. So feel free to post any messages and surely you will get many responses and hopefully they will help you. mkr At 02:37 PM 12/31/04 +0000, you wrote: >Hello Theos-Talk, >My friends call me Dee, living in Fayetteville, NC. I'm 31 years >old and I had lost myself somewhere and I have been on a mission to >discover me for the past year. A few months ago I discovered - or >finally come to terms - that one of the reasons that I'm having >trouble with discovering myself is that I have a form of >depression. But for the past year or so I've been conducting my >search from a spiritual perspective - and a lot of therapy sessions. >In the past year I purchased several books such as, different >versions of the Bible, the Septuagint, the Gnostic Bible, books on >paganism, I Ching, The Idiot's Guide to World Religions, meditation, >etc. Every time I went into the book store, there was this one >particular 2 book volume set that, for some reason, I was drawn to >it. I had no idea what it was or what it was about. Finally, one >day after several trips to the book store, and having some sort a >compelling feeling towards the books every time I walked down that >isle, I purchased the set , The Secret Doctrine. I read the >introduction and part of the first chapter. That's how I discovered >that there is such a thing as Theosophy. I had a difficult time >understanding what H.P.B. was saying, a lot of terms were foriegn to >me so I went back to the store and bought Isis Unveiled, hoping that >will clue me in to what every thing is about. > So here I am, joined a group in hopes of learning more about >Theosophy and maybe find some folks in my area that might be >interested in meeting up some time. > > > > Have a Happy New Year, > Dee > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 12/30/04 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 12/30/04 From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Fri Dec 31 15:08:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 88413 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2004 23:08:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2004 23:08:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 23:08:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2004 23:08:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.120] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2004 23:08:05 -0000 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:08:03 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 140 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.35 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Blavatsky's Key to Theosophy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Online version of "Key to Theosophy" as well as links to purchase book are available at: http://keytotheosophy.net Daniel http://hpb.cc From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Dec 31 17:08:39 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 556 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2005 01:08:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2005 01:08:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2005 01:08:38 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.96] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CkXku-0002mZ-Pt; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 20:08:34 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE; b=IVnl2B6kqTzeivEIp43mJKRWRM2pFgHYAQBaiqEhGw7L2y3FCzAr6C7j59FD8rmE; To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 17:07:50 -0800 Message-ID: <001a01c4ef9e$69379ca0$60deb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <20041231065830.37823.qmail@web41526.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79526bbe256ebb68fdea690fb86b1fd82a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.65 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.222.96 Subject: RE: Theos-World A Question for the New Year X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 31 2004 Friends: THEOSOPHY is called "A Statement Of Facts In Nature." THEOSOPHY has only one answer for any question. It does not deal in the confusion of opinions.=20 THEOSOPHY as a statement of : The Laws of Nature and Life doesn't change. Events that affect Karma (either individual or collective) make for changes and those changes produce effects -- and, those can be tracked and expresse= d by using that great universal LAW -- which inevitably and minutely, tracks them all, just as it has always been doing.=20=20 =20 For this reason we find in the SECRET DOCTRINE that there are two broad aspects: 1 DOCTRINES, LAWS AND AXIOMS (facts),=20 "The Occult Catechism contains the following questions and answers:=20 "What is that which was, is, and will be, whether there is a Universe or not; whether there be gods or none?" asks the esoteric Senzar Catechism. An= d the answer made is =97 SPACE. (S D I 9) "What is it that ever is?"=20 "Space, the eternal Anupadaka."*=20 "What is it that ever was?"=20 "The Germ in the Root."=20 "What is it that is ever coming and going?"=20 "The Great Breath."=20 "Then, there are three Eternals?"=20 "No, the three are one. That which ever is is one, that which ever was is one, that which is ever being and becoming is also one: and this is Space."= =20 "Explain, oh Lanoo (disciple)." =97=20 "The One is an unbroken Circle (ring) with no circumference, for it is nowhere and everywhere; the One is the boundless plane of the Circle, manifesting a diameter only during the manvantaric periods; the One is the indivisible point found nowhere, perceived everywhere during those periods; it is the Vertical and the Horizontal, the Father and the Mother, the summi= t and base of the Father, the two extremities of the Mother, reaching in reality nowhere, for the One is the Ring as also the rings that are within that Ring. Light in darkness and darkness in light: the 'Breath which is eternal.' It proceeds from without inwardly, when it is everywhere, and fro= m within outwardly, when it is nowhere =97 (i.e., maya,=86 one of the centres= =87 ). It expands and contracts (exhalation and inhalation). When it expands the mother diffuses and scatters; when it contracts, the mother draws back and ingathers.=20 This produces the periods of Evolution and Dissolution, Manwantara and Pralaya. The Germ is invisible and fiery; the Root (the plane of the circle= ) is cool; but during Evolution and Manwantara her garment is cold and radiant.=20 Hot Breath is the Father who devours the progeny of the many-faced Element (heterogeneous); and leaves the single-faced ones (homogeneous). Cool Breat= h is the Mother, who conceives, forms, brings forth, and receives them back into her bosom, to reform them at the Dawn (of the Day of Brahma, or Manvantara). . . . " (S D I 11-12) "Lift thy head, oh Lanoo; dost thou see one, or countless lights above thee= , burning in the dark midnight sky?"=20 "I sense one Flame, oh Gurudeva, I see countless undetached sparks shining in it."=20 "Thou sayest well. And now look around and into thyself. That light which burns inside thee, dost thou feel it different in anywise from the light that shines in thy Brother-men?"=20 "It is in no way different, though the prisoner is held in bondage by Karma= , and though its outer garments delude the ignorant into saying, 'Thy Soul an= d My Soul.' " (S D I 120) ------------------- 2 HISTORY "as the Secret Doctrine teaches history=97which, for being esoteric and traditional, is none the less more reliable than profane history (S D I 267) ------------------------------------- Did you have some other question in mind? Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: Pedro=20 Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 10:59 PM To:=20 Subject: A Question for the New Year Mauri recent speculations and Jerry Hejka-Ekins comments in his dialogue with Dallas have made me pose the following question: Can Theosophy evolve? If evolution is one of the inherent, universal laws in our universe, does it also apply to the Wisdom Tradition? A Happy New Year to all. Pedro=20=20 From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Fri Dec 31 18:09:41 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63774 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2005 02:09:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2005 02:09:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.46) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2005 02:09:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n17.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2005 02:09:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.156] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2005 02:09:40 -0000 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 02:09:31 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001a01c4ef9e$69379ca0$60deb3d1@DALLAS> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 4565 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.46 From: "prmoliveira" X-Originating-IP: 150.101.201.135 Subject: Re: Theos-World A Question for the New Year X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617 X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck"=20 wrote: =20 > THEOSOPHY is called "A Statement Of Facts In Nature." >=20 > THEOSOPHY has only one answer for any question. It does not deal=20 in the > confusion of opinions.=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHY as a statement of : The Laws of Nature and Life doesn't=20 change. >=20 > Events that affect Karma (either individual or collective) make for=20 changes > and those changes produce effects -- and, those can be tracked and=20 expressed > by using that great universal LAW -- which inevitably and=20 minutely, tracks > them all, just as it has always been doing.=20=20 >=20=20 > For this reason we find in the SECRET DOCTRINE that there are two=20 broad > aspects: > 1 DOCTRINES, LAWS AND AXIOMS (facts) =20 > 2 HISTORY > Did you have some other question in mind? Dear Dallas: No, my question remains: can Theosophy evolve?=20 Perhaps one could say, tentatively, that its essential principles are=20 timeless ("eternal verities") but that Theosophy as a TEACHING=20 undergoes changes in its presentation throughout history. There are,=20 for example, differences between the teaching of the Upanishads and=20 Shankaracharya and, say, the Buddha's and Nagarjuna's. There is=20 Theosophy in all of them but the presentation and emphasis differs.=20 This may be due to the prevailing cultural world view in which the=20 teaching was given as well as the essential needs of the humanity at=20 that time. It is possible that Theosophy, as a teaching, adapts=20 itself to the socio-cultural reality of the age to which it is=20 presented. Please consider the following statement by HPB and note the=20 expression "the teaching is offered as it is understood". She also=20 highlights the need for interpreation, which may be an individual=20 exercise, an exercise suggested by the teaching itself! "All the words and sentences placed in brackets in the Stanzas and=20 Commentaries are the writer's. In some places they may be incomplete=20 and even inadequate from the Hindu standpoint; but in the meaning=20 attached to them in Trans-Himalayan Esotericism they are correct. In=20 every case the writer takes any blame upon herself. Having never=20 claimed personal infallibility, that which is given on her own=20 authority may leave much to be desired, in the very abstruse cases=20 where too deep metaphysic is involved. The teaching is offered as it=20 is understood; and as there are seven keys of interpretation to every=20 symbol and allegory, that which may not fit a meaning, say from the=20 psychological or astronomical aspect, will be found quite correct=20 from the physical or metaphysical." (SD, vol. 1, footnote to stanza 1) The following passage of the Mahatma Letters also shows how the=20 occult or esoteric teaching evolved to adapt itself to new realities=20 brought into existence by the progress of science. At the end of the=20 quote there is a suggestion that the interaction between the teaching=20 and an aspirant is a profoundly dynamic one, with the teaching=20 relating to different individuals differently: "Why is it that doubts and foul suspicions seem to beset every=20 aspirant for chelaship? My friend, in the Masonic Lodges of old times=20 the neophyte was subjected to a series of frightful tests of his=20 constancy, courage and presence of mind. By psychological impressions=20 supplemented by machinery and chemicals, he was made to believe=20 himself falling down precipices, crushed by rocks, walking spider-web=20 bridges in mid-air, passing through fire, drowned in water and=20 attacked by wild beasts. This was a reminiscence of and a programme=20 borrowed from the Egyptian Mysteries. The West having lost the=20 secrets of the East, had, as I say, to resort to artifice. But in=20 these days the vulgarization of science has rendered such trifling=20 tests obsolete. The aspirant is now assailed entirely on the=20 psychological side of his nature. His course of testing =97 in Europe=20 and India =97 is that of Raj-yog and its result is =97 as frequently=20 explained =97 to develop every germ good and bad in him in his=20 temperament. The rule is inflexible, and not one escapes whether he=20 but writes to us a letter, or in the privacy of his own heart's=20 thought formulates a strong desire for occult communication and=20 knowledge. As the shower cannot fructify the rock, so the occult=20 teaching has no effect upon the unreceptive mind; and as the water=20 develops the heat of caustic lime so does the teaching bring into=20 fierce action every unsuspected potentiality latent in him." (ML,=20 136, chronological) Looking forward to your comments. Pedro=20 From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Fri Dec 31 20:12:21 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22057 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2005 04:12:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2005 04:12:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.49) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2005 04:12:20 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n20.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2005 04:12:20 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.252] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2005 04:12:20 -0000 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 04:12:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 374 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.49 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Pedro: "It is possible...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Pedro, You write: "It is possible that Theosophy, as a teaching, adapts itself to the socio-cultural reality of the age to which it is presented." Well, Pedro, this may be true, so can you give us an example of this in present day "socio- cultural reality"? I keep wondering what your basic point is: what exactly are you trying to say..... Daniel http://hpb.cc From perrycoles@yahoo.com Fri Dec 31 21:11:26 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: perrycoles@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 10586 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2005 05:11:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2005 05:11:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2005 05:11:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2005 05:11:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.130] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2005 05:11:24 -0000 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 05:11:04 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1946 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.41 From: "Perry Coles" X-Originating-IP: 203.59.212.67 Subject: Theosophical study as ongoing dynamic process X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=93736069 X-Yahoo-Profile: perrycoles My own approach to the study of not only theosophy but any subject is to remember that as much as you may know or think you know something for one thing you may be completely wrong and for another there is always an endless amount more to discover. The key for me is what kind of mindset is it that is being developed in me. Is it a mindset that is always able to genuinely look at a long held belief or firmly entrenched idea completely differently and freshly? Is it a mindset that is looking to be rescued and looking for certainty or one of fluidity and that is able to see a challenge to my beliefs as an opportunity rather than an affront. Very often our ideas become our identity and our beliefs our tower of security. The worship of personalities is always problematic as the rational mind becomes blinded by devotional feelings. Any writer needs to be assessed by the credibility of what they write rather than our particular devotion bent we may feel towards them. Devotion to a personality I've found is a major trap as otherwise very rational and intelligent people can become completely irrational and sacrifice reason and more importantly compassion and truth at the lotus feet of devotion. As we discover more of the underbelly of our theosophical history with the advent of the internet and the fast tracking of information I hope we as theosophical students can try and look at this information with fresh and alert minds and not fall into the trap of devotional wishful thing or protectionism. Lets keep these dialogues open and not be afraid of constructive criticism or new information that we may find personally uncomfortable. If we are `right' or `wrong' surely it is of secondary importance to a more expansive understanding. If we discover information that HPB and the Mahatmas were wrong we should welcome this information as it may set us on a clearer path. Best wishes to everyone for the new year ! Perry