From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Mon Aug 01 00:31:11 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 79163 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2005 07:31:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2005 07:31:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx02.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.12) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2005 07:31:10 -0000 Received: from 3e6b3c87.rev.stofanet.dk ([62.107.60.135] helo=khidr) by mx02.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1DzUlQ-0001KF-2m for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 01 Aug 2005 09:31:09 +0200 Message-ID: <001201c5966b$3623a560$873c6b3e@khidr> To: References: <000301c595ca$9ac596a0$248cb3d1@DALLAS> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:32:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Originating-IP: 212.10.10.12 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "M. Sufilight" Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Greogory's biggest mistake in life X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933; y=4LzrB_Vs6Ww6KuuFQ1TCm4cwO6isrsf9CFf19Bv5iJrr X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo all, My views are: Thanks to Dallas and other replies. Here is the continuation of the chapter by Idries Shah with a few changes added by me. The use of the word 'he' instead of 'she' at certain places in the text, was done to make the text more readable. The last sentence in the previous email were: "This is the least useful but most attractive component." And now we have: CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THE ESOTERICAL AND THEOSOPHICAL TEACHINGS (PART 2) " Q: How is it known to the participants of such a group as to how accurate or meaningful their theosophical 'work' is? A: There are no two ways about it. Either it is known to their teacher, if one still exists, in which case he will remedy defects, and they will not be perpetuated. Or it is totally repetitious, and the effort has become an - administrative - one. This happen when there has been no true succession of teaching, so that there is nobody at the top sufficiently developed to be able to diagnose the situation. In this case the group has become to a greater or lesser degree a prisoner of the automatism of the formal world. Q: Does a teacher appear in a (theosophical) group which already exists, or does he/she not? A: He may or he may not. He comes to fulfil a law. He may revalidate the working bases of a derelict group. Q: Why does he do this? A: In response to an inexorable need. Q: Does the group always recognose him? A: Certain people in general do. It will depend upon the apparatus of perception which they have. The onus on him is not primarily to preach, but to make himself available to the perception of the people. Q: Does he need the support of such groups? A: Both parties can benefit, because there is no such thing as solitary work. EVEN a derelict (theosophical group) can be producing semi- consciously a quantity of necessary force ('substance') which we might say goes waste unless it is correctly used. Q: How can we account for the dramatic rise of teachers who purport to have been 'called' to bring, for instance, spirituality to mankind? A: Do not generalise about this. One form is the result of physical laws. A group of people (ie. perhaps socalled theosophists) can engender necessary force (substance) already mentioned. (Added by Sufilight: This force could for instance be called 'promotion of the teaching'). They do not know what to do with it; they may not even really know what it is. An individual, who has another development analogous to their own, may contact this force (distance has no relevance here) and make use of it. Now we have the amusing and also tragic situation in which (a) force is raised by a certain group, (b) it is perceived and employed by someone else, (c) this temporarily reinforces, through vampirism, the 'teacher' who becomes prominent, (d) because of the similarity of this person with their own defective tradition (also sometimes called pseudo-theosophical teaching), the victim group think that he is their teacher, (e) they join him, not realising that he seems to be like them because he is using their own nutrition! (Note added by Sufilight: I can think of at least one theosophical teacher following this pattern. - - - Today this pattern is a nuisance and some Seekers do not realise this and they even follow a repetitous pattern. Ie. a pattern which is not relating itself to the Time, place, people involved and spiritual needs of the process) What you call a movement is part of an organic, natural development. It takes on a local colour because of the culture in which it grows (ie. also "the global planetary culture", which in a sense is local). It cannot be imported together with the local colouring. It may attain a certain degree of necessary force in its location, but its spread into other areas is conditional upon to vital factors: (1) That it takes root naturally and becomes naturalised in the fresh culture. (2) That there is a need for it in the new culture. The latter condition is operative only when there is a teacher, adequately comminsioned to provide a formulation in that area. ******* I might write more from the chapter later. from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" To: Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:22 PM Subject: Theos-World RE: Greogory's biggest mistake in life > > Sunday, July 31, 2005 > > Re: Corresponding terms in all religions and philosophies > > > Dear Friend: > > In ISIS UNVEILED and the SECRET DOCTRINE HPB does this kind of comparison > and equivalence all the time. > > Antique THEOSOPHY is the permanent and basic root of all religions and > philosophies. > > To bring this home to modern research and thought HPB spent great time > tracing the historical roots of most of the great religions and also shows > how currently they still agree on basics. > > The Answers below are useful to us all. > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > ----------------------------------- > > > -----Original Message----- > From: M. Sufilight > Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 6:45 AM > To: Subject: Re: Gregory's biggest mistake in life > > My views are: > > I have followed the recent exchanges of emails on the below topic. > > The following might be helpful to understand why I think that > almost all parties involved in exchanges of emails somehow has failed > to understand the theosophical teachings. > > > CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THE ESOTERICAL AND THEOSOPHICAL TEACHINGS > > Q: What is the connection, if any, between the various methaphysical > and esoterical teachings? > > A: There are, in your terms, numerous connections. > > The important ones to note are: > > 1. The world is littered with the remnants of genuine theosophical > activities, whose actions has become vitiated or repetitious. These > remnants > sometimes call themselves genuine theosophical groups - even if they are > not. Somnetimes the even use the same name as the original teaching group > or > groups as if this will make their activities equally valid. > > 2. It is a natural law that teachings be renewed in conformity with the > place, TIME, people involved and spiritual needs of the process. (And not > the various individuals wants of the proces.) > > > Q: What form does the renewal take? > > A: Simply this. A Teacher, dedicated to a certain kind of function, > organizes and presents the teaching in a manner suitable to the conditions > just cited. > > > Q: Does this mean that traditional methaphysical and theosophical > teachings > which we find find represented in various countries are not now of any > real > function, because they represent survivals from a period when they > enshrined > real "work" ? > > A: That is so. > > > Q: But how much reality or function do such organisations now have? > > A: In your terms, these spiritual, psychological and other systems have > Three main components:- > > 1. The component of reality, which is ultimate truth, which is more or > less > locked in by the human formulator. > > 2. The component of decay, which is what has crept in at the point where > the > effort ceased to act truly, perhaps on the death of the formulator. > > 3. The component of outside appearence, which becomes after a time, > unwittingly, the main interest of the participants. > > This is the least useful but most attractive component. > > > I might later write the following pages of the chapter. > > ******* > > CUT > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Aug 01 05:49:28 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75963 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2005 12:49:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2005 12:49:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2005 12:49:27 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.47] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DzZjF-0004eu-Ih; Mon, 01 Aug 2005 08:49:17 -0400 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 05:49:01 -0700 Message-ID: <000301c59697$6aac44f0$2fdeb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <001201c5966b$3623a560$873c6b3e@khidr> X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec797ba4027b3180a941bc5dbe45109e7746350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.68 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: Gregory's biggest mistake in life X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=cdwJnRYE1MGAw5NMBYC3_f_vHXk-yF3tyItwz7JYNnTHAQ X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 August 1, 2005 Dear Friends: The subjoined comments appear in the main useful and correct. Let us however observe that THEOSOPHY is as old as Mankind.=20=20 It provides history, logic and an altruistic "Goal" that all can recognize, test and use if found to be valid. It is not "congregational." It does not seek numbers of "politically correct" adherents.=20 It seeks to keep the record of ancient Laws, Rules and objectives alive and prominent for those who seek them to find and use. Those who assist in this do not seek any recognition of followers. They present what they have discovered, honestly, accurately, and openly, having only respect for facts and not for individuals and their "opinions."=20 The principle is: "And that power the disciple shall covet is that which will make him appear as the least among men." {LIGHT ON THE PATH p. 4} THEOSOPHY provides its own validation. But to be able to know and use it the student/disciples have to study it. This aspect of the link is vital, since any advance or improvement in the nature, capacity and character of those who approach THEOSOPHY is self-generated. It is here that the motto of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY is to be invariably applied: "There is no Religion higher than TRUTH."=20 No amount of money, or public display of loyalty, and the following of rites, rituals and ceremonies (and altered texts) helps.=20 All the self-reform is interior and within the conscious intelligence (MIND= ) of each disciple. This is real "key to occultism." It is firmly grasped b= y every aspirant. Opening the 16th Chapter of the BHAGAVAD GITA, Sri Krishna says: "Fearlessness, sincerity, assiduity in devotion, generosity, self-restraint= , piety, and alms-givings, study, mortification, and rectitude; harmlessness, veracity, and freedom from anger, resignation, equanimity, and not speaking of the faults of others, universal compassion, modesty, and mildness; patience, power, fortitude, and purity, discretion, dignity, unrevengefulness, and freedom from conceit=AF these are the marks of him wh= ose virtues are of a godlike character, O son of Bharata.=20 Those, O son of Pritha, who are born with demoniacal dispositions are marke= d by hypocrisy, pride, anger, presumption, harshness of speech, and ignorance= . The destiny of those whose attributes are godlike is final liberation, whil= e those of demoniacal dispositions, born to the Asuras' lot, [suffer] continued bondage to mortal birth; grieve not."=20 It is for this reason that the THREE FUNDAMENTALS of THEOSOPHY are to be learned, tested, and applied to anything that is claimed to be theosophical or even non-theosophical.=20 For the mentally lazy and those who are "obtuse," Theosophy has nothing to offer. For those who are in search of TRUTH and the answers to the gaps of knowledge that our present-day education or erudition displays (in the sciences. academies and religious bodies everywhere) THEOSOPHY offers the HISTORY [S D I 267 top] of all antiquity and the cumulated research of the greatest Sages of the World -- it progenitors, supervisors and continuing mentors: The Masters of Wisdom. What are the BASICS ?=20 In the past 130 years we have still got "originals" of the TEXTS as well as photographic copies of those "originals," and, in addition, we have had these "originals" placed on Internet and CDs, so anyone can have and use them.=20=20 We have a catalog of laws, facts truths which anyone can verify - which demand no credulity and seek no "faith" or masses of "adherents." Everything rests upon a FOUNDATION. What of this does THEOSOPHY offer? If we were (all who are interested) to meet together at one of the ancient circular theatres where the "stage" is in the center we might expect to fin= d 1 In the center of the stage a Golden glow indicating the Ancient Lodge. We are not able to discern anyone clearly therein through that curtain of light. 2 At its rim (for us to see) are H P B, Olcott and Judge. They hold the "original writings and teachings of THEOSOPHY" in their hands. To them as assistants came Subba Row, Damodar, Jasper Niemand, the Keightleys, Mead, Crooks, Cleather, and others. 3 The rest of us - their students sit in the circular rows around that "Stage" 4 We all have got the same books available to us as they were originally written. Those who have and use them sit near the front facing the stage. Those who fail to study or use corrupted books and texts sit further back. 5 As we move around the seats and go towards the back we may note in this imaginary forum that not all have the original texts, or "foundation" books, or do not read or study them very often. They are responsible for their various "opinions," confusingly dispensed. 6 Some we note have substituted for the basic books, interpretations and manuals that " abbreviate" or "explain." And it is they who have decide= d to consider the authors of those altered texts as "authorities" valuable an= d sound, but, but they have not verified this for themselves. Their carelessness or laziness and lack of accuracy, is passed on and usually given great importance until such time as someone confronts it with facts and truths. By that time it is painful to have to retract and redefine one's so far well supported opinions. [In the world of Science, we find the Darwinists and those who foreshorten the vast periods of time needed for actual change and evolutionary development are at war with the facts of tim= e provided by current discoveries that indicate a far vaster antiquity for eras and events. It is a problem that has to do with the honesty and character of those involved. Not with the actual facts of discovery, which in some cases, we find have been suppressed or concealed -- as earlier hypotheses and theories are found progressively invalidated.] 7. The whole theatre cannot hold the rest of those interested in THEOSOPHY who have come to it through the agency of the books in Libraries, talks, the Media presentations, Internet and recordings on CDs. But this number has expanded the penetration of theosophical ideas and doctrines enormously.=20 And so on. As we continue our round we find that there are groups forming among those who attend where particular books (not necessarily the "originals") are and have been chosen for that community of members or students, for their selected study and attention. We also notice that the original organization the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY founded Nov. 17, 1875 in New York has become sub-divided. When HPB and Col= . Olcott moved to work in India at the beginning of 1879, it was Col. Olcott who declared that the Headquarters of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY would be wherever he resided. This was accepted (but no Resolution at the Original, Founding Society in New York was ever so passed). There is th reason and basis for a THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY that calls itself "International" and uses "Adyar" as a HQ. It has a number of National Sections, and many independent Branches and even independent THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETIES. [The London Lodge (President: Mr. A. P. Sinnett), and the T S Lodge in Edmonton, Canada, are an example of this kind of affiliated independence. Some Sections have been excommunicated by the Adyar H Q: The USA, Germany, Denmark, Canada, etc...] There is another THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY with branches in America, and elsewhere, that refers to "Pasadena" as their H Q. There is a dispersed an= d informal group that call themselves "associates of U L T," and while they have a number of independent Lodges and Study Groups, they have no "center.= " They employ the "Original Teachings of THEOSOPHY" as a basis for their common work and progressing study.=20 Notice ought to be made for comparison of current Magazines published by th= e various T S es. A comparison of their articles and contents reveals the nature of the force behind those efforts. Additionally several E-ZINES (Internet Magazines), such as THEOS-WORLD, AQUARIAN THEOSOPHIST, are being regularly issued. While this "situation report" is obviously brief, shortened and inaccurate in detail, it can give us something to think about. The main idea to dwell on I think is: "Am I studying "original" THEOSOPHY or am I studying something filtered by another's thoughts and ideas?=20 Best wishes,=20 Dallas =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: M. Sufilight Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 12:33 AM To:=20 Subject: Re: Gregory's biggest mistake in life Hallo all, My views are: Thanks to Dallas and other replies. And now we have: CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THE ESOTERICAL AND THEOSOPHICAL TEACHINGS (PART 2) " Q: How is it known to the participants of such a group as to how accurate or meaningful their theosophical 'work' is? A: There are no two ways about it. Either it is known to their teacher, if one still exists, in which case he will remedy defects, and they will not be perpetuated. Or it is totally repetitious, and the effort has become an - administrative - one. This happen when there has been no true succession of teaching, so that there is nobody at the top sufficiently developed to be able to diagnose the situation. In this case the group has become to a greater or lesser degree a prisoner of the automatism of the formal world. Q: Does a teacher appear in a (theosophical) group which already exists, or= =20 does he/she not? A: He may or he may not. He comes to fulfil a law. He may revalidate the working bases of a derelict group. Q: Why does he do this? A: In response to an inexorable need. Q: Does the group always recognose him? A: Certain people in general do. It will depend upon the apparatus of perception which they have. The onus on him is not primarily to preach, but to make himself available to the perception of the people. Q: Does he need the support of such groups? A: Both parties can benefit, because there is no such thing as solitary work. EVEN a derelict (theosophical group) can be producing semi- consciously a quantity of necessary force ('substance') which we might say goes waste unless it is correctly used. Q: How can we account for the dramatic rise of teachers who purport to have been 'called' to bring, for instance, spirituality to mankind? A: Do not generalise about this. One form is the result of physical laws. A group of people (ie. perhaps socalled theosophists) can engender necessary force (substance) already mentioned. (Added by Sufilight: This force could for instance be called 'promotion of= =20 the teaching'). They do not know what to do with it; they may not even really know what it is. An individual, who has another development analogous to their own, may contact this force (distance has no relevance here) and make use of it.=20 Now we have the amusing and also tragic situation in which (a) force is raised by a certain group, (b) it is perceived and employed by someone else= , (c) this temporarily reinforces, through vampirism, the 'teacher' who becomes prominent, (d) because of the similarity of this person with their own defective tradition (also sometimes called pseudo-theosophical teaching), the victim group thin= k that he is their teacher, (e) they join him, not realising that he seems to be like them because he is using their own nutrition! (Note added by Sufilight: I can think of at least one theosophical teacher following this=20 pattern. - - - Today this pattern is a nuisance and some Seekers do not realise this and=20 They even follow a repetitous pattern. Ie. a pattern which is not relating itself=20 to the Time, place, people involved and spiritual needs of the process) What you call a movement is part of an organic, natural development. It takes on a local colour because of the culture in which it grows (ie. also "the global planetary culture", which in a sense is local). It cannot be imported together with the local colouring. It may attain a=20 Certain degree of necessary force in its location, but its spread into othe= r areas is conditional upon to vital factors: (1) That it takes root naturally and becomes naturalised in the fresh culture. (2) That there is a need for it in the new culture. The latter condition is operative only when there is a teacher, adequately comminsioned to provide a formulation in that area. ******* from M. Sufilight =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Re: Corresponding terms in all religions and philosophies Dear Friend: In ISIS UNVEILED and the SECRET DOCTRINE HPB does this kind of comparison and equivalence all the time. Antique THEOSOPHY is the permanent and basic root of all religions and philosophies.=20 To bring this home to modern research and thought HPB spent great time tracing the historical roots of most of the great religions, sciences and philosophies and also shows how currently they still agree on basics. =20 From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Aug 01 10:56:53 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86338 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2005 17:56:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2005 17:56:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.64) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2005 17:56:52 -0000 Received: from [209.179.219.71] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DzeWI-0006Hx-ML; Mon, 01 Aug 2005 13:56:20 -0400 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:55:27 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c596c2$4d3a85f0$47dbb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <42ED054E.E3EC8C58@wisdomworld.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79b9b49695d8ee9c6a617c2fd9b9c8ab82350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.64 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: [theosophia] About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=-jfgj9F7yaKAVS_HmeR8bTzhKmmkyuMVnf7WUhpG9o8E3A X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Aug 1 2005 Dear John: Re: STEM CELLS, TWINNING, DUPLICATION, multiple births Using what we have learned from THEOSOPHY -- Lets think about Karma and the Astral plane and body on this. Modern physiology is using the physical visible cells and their contents to try to effect regeneration of failing cell structures, or to bring on by physiological means conceptions where Karmically -- under the normal proces= s of bodily self-restoration -- it may not be possible for the body to achiev= e the healing or the reproduction desires. It all starts with DESIRE and with the TANHAIC FEELING that a long life is desirable, and death is to be deferred for as long as possible, using any and every means.=20 Where are there errors? Karma, reincarnation, individual effects for deeds in past lives now manifesting at least 3 causes. These relate to the Monads of lesser experience who aggregate around a Monad to provide it with its personality in this life through which it progresses morally, ethically and intellectually.=20=20 Modern medicine knows little of this.=20=20 Students of THEOSOPHY are generally ignorant of medicine. And they do not know the ins and outs of the Astral or of Karma.=20 With modern drugs, etc. it is possible to evade many kinds of pain. Ask if this is always advisable. (Strange question : but if we evade pain this life are we likely to find it returning in a future one ? I don't know. ) If we prolong life now using med. Tech. Then what effect has that on future Karma ? Again I don't know. Reincarnation takes care of the fear of death (we don't fear sleep, as an example) Remains longevity in a sick incapacitated and ailing body -- but w= e are still uncertain and certainly the physical and personal is not reassure= d entirely. Healing and especially of cancer situations seems to be stalled no matter what is being tried as the human body is not a mere machine.=20 If Karma says it is to die, then efforts to preserve life are usually unsuccessful and also very stressful and even -- to the extent of torture -- to continue life in a physically disabled and disintegrating body.=20 We ought also to note that there is a disregard of the ethics and morality of the situation, patient and patient-doctor relationship. Some patients are, unknown to themselves, being used as parts of experiments designed to discover cures. If they are not carefully told of this it is a breach of morality.=20 Individual Karma may not always be exactly replicated in others. Our bodies are Karmically guided. Not machines with interchangeable parts.=20 Best wishes,=20 Dallas ------------------------------------------- =20 IS KARMA ONLY PUNISHMENT?=20 THE following query has been received from H.M.H.: "In August PATH Hadji Erinn, in reply to the above question, stated that 'those who have wealth, and the happy mother seeing all her children respected and virtuous, are favorites of Karma. I and others believe that these apparent favors are onl= y punishment or obstacles, and others think that the terms punishment and reward should not be used." I cannot agree with this view, nor with the suggestion that punishment and reward should not be used as terms. It is easy to reduce every thing to a primordial basis when one may say that all is the absolute. But such is onl= y the method of those who affirm and deny. They say there is no evil, there i= s no death; all is good, all is life. In this way we are reduced to absurdities, inasmuch as we then have no terms to designate very evident things and conditions. As well say there is no gold and no iron, because both are equally matter. While we continue to be human beings we must use terms that shall express our conscious perception of ideas and things. It is therefore quite proper to say that an unhappy or miserably circumstanced person is undergoing punishment, and that the wealthy or happ= y person is having reward. Otherwise there is no sense in our doctrine. The misunderstanding shown in the question is due to inaccurate thinking upon the subject of Karma. One branch of this law deals with the vicissitudes of life, with the differing states of men. One man has opportunity and happiness, another meets only the opposite. Why is this? It is because each state is the exact result bound to come from his having disturbed or preserved the harmony of nature. The person given wealth in this life is he who in the preceding incarnation suffered from its absence or had been deprived of it unjustly. What are we to call it but reward? If we say compensation, we express exactly the same idea. And we cannot get th= e world to adopt verbosity in speech so as to say, "All this is due to that man's having preserved the cosmic harmony." The point really in the questioners mind is, in fact, quite different from the one expressed; he has mistaken one for the other; he is thinking of the fact so frequently obtruded before us that the man who has the opportunity of wealth or power oft misuses it and becomes selfish or tyrannous. But thi= s does not alter the conclusion that he is having his reward. Karma will take care of him; and if he does not use the opportunity for the good of his fellows, or if he does evil to them, he will have punishment upon coming back again to earth. It is true enough, as Jesus said, that "it is difficul= t for the rich man to enter heaven," but there are other possessions of the man besides wealth that constitute greater obstacles to development, and they are punishments and may coexist in the life of one man with the reward of wealth or the like. I mean the obstruction and hindrance found in stupidity, or natural baseness, or in physical sensual tendencies. These ar= e more likely to keep him from progress and ultimate salvation than all the wealth or good luck that any one person ever enjoyed. In such cases--and they are not a few--we see Karmic reward upon the outer material plane in the wealth and propitious arrangement of life, and on the inner character the punishment of being unable or unfit through many defect= s of mind or nature. This picture can be reversed with equal propriety. I doubt if the questioner has devoted his mind to analyzing the subject in this manner. Every man, however, is endowed with conscience and the power to use his life, whatever its form or circumstance, in the proper way, so as to extrac= t from it all the good for himself and his fellows that his limitations of character will permit. It is his duty so to do, and as he neglects or obeys= , so will be his subsequent punishment or reward. There may also be another sort of wealth than mere gold, another sort of power than position in politics or society. The powerful, wide, all-embracing, rapidly-acting brain stored with knowledge is a vast possession which one man may enjoy. He can use it properly or improperly. I= t may lead him to excesses, to vileness, to the very opposite of all that is good. It is his reward for a long past life of stupidity followed by others of noble deeds and thoughts. What will the questioner do with this? The possessor thus given a reward may misuse it so as to turn it, next time he is born, into a source of punishment. We are thus continually fitting our arrows to the bow, drawing them back hard to the ear, and shooting them forth from us. When we enter the field of earth-life again, they will surel= y strike us or our enemies of human shape or the circumstances which otherwis= e would hurt us. It is not the arrow or the bow that counts, but the motive and the thought with which the missile is shot. HADJI ERINN Path, February, 1890 =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D IS THE DESIRE TO "LIVE" SELFISH? Article by H. P. Blavatsky THE passage, "to Live, to Live, TO LIVE must be the unswerving resolve," occurring in the article on the ELIXIR OF LIFE, published in the March and April Numbers of Vol. III of the Theosophist, is often quoted, by superficial readers unsympathetic with the Theosophical Society, as an argument that the above teaching, of occultism is the most concentrated for= m of selfishness. In order to determine whether the critics are right or wrong, the meaning of the word "selfishness" must first be ascertained.=20 According to an established authority, selfishness is that "exclusive regar= d to one's own interest or happiness; that supreme self-love or self-preference which leads a person to direct his purposes to the advancement of his own interest, power, or happiness, without regarding those of others."=20 In short, an absolutely selfish individual is one who cares for himself and none else, or, in other words, one who is so strongly imbued with a sense o= f importance of his own personality that to him it is the acme of all his thoughts, desires and aspirations and beyond that all is a perfect blank. Now, can an occultist be then said to be "selfish" when he desires to live in the sense in which that word is used by the writer of the article on the ELIXIR OF LIFE?=20 It has been said over and over again that the ultimate end of every aspiran= t after occult knowledge is Nirvana or Mukti, when the individual, freed from all Mayavic Upadhi, becomes one with Paramatma, or the Son identifies himself with the Father in Christian phraseology. For that purpose, every veil of illusion which creates a sense of personal isolation, a feeling of separateness from THE ALL, must be torn asunder, or, in other words, the aspirant must gradually discard all sense of selfishness with which we are all more or less affected.=20 A study of the Law of Cosmic Evolution teaches us that the higher the evolution, the more does it tend towards Unity. In fact, Unity is the ultimate possibility of Nature, and those who through vanity and selfishnes= s go against her purposes, cannot but incur the punishment of total annihilation.=20 The Occultist thus recognises that unselfishness and a feeling of universal philanthropy are the inherent law of our being, and all he does is to attempt to destroy the chains of selfishness forged upon us by Maya.=20 The struggle then between Good and Evil, God and Satan, Suras and Asuras, Devas and Daityas, which is mentioned in the sacred books of all the nation= s and races, symbolizes the battle between unselfishness and the selfish impulses, which takes place in a man, who tries to follow the higher purposes of Nature, until the lower animal tendencies, created by selfishness, are completely conquered, and the enemy thoroughly routed and annihilated. It has also been often put forth in various theosophical and other occult writings that the only difference between an ordinary man who works along with Nature during the course of cosmic evolution and an occultist, is that the latter, by his superior knowledge, adopts such methods of training and discipline as will hurry on that process of evolution, and he thus reaches in a comparatively very short time that apex to ascend to which the ordinary individual may take perhaps billions of years. In short, in a few thousand years he approaches that form of evolution which ordinary humanity will attain to perhaps in the sixth or th= e seventh round during the process of Manvantara, i.e., cyclic progression. I= t is evident that the average man cannot become a MAHATMA in one life, or rather in one incarnation.=20 Now those, who have studied the occult teachings concerning Devachan and ou= r after-states, will remember that between two incarnations there is a considerable period of subjective existence. The greater the number of such Devachanic periods, the greater is the number of years over which this evolution is extended.=20 The chief aim of the occultist is therefore to so control himself as to be able to control his future states, and thereby gradually shorten the duration of his Devachanic states between his two incarnations. In his progress, there comes a time when, between one physical death and his next re-birth, there is no Devachan but a kind of spiritual sleep, the shock of death, having, so to say, stunned him into a state of unconsciousness from which he gradually recovers to find himself reborn, to continue his purpose= . The period of this sleep may vary from twenty-five to two hundred years, depending upon the degree of his advancement. But even this period may be said to be a waste of time, and hence all his exertions are directed to shorten its duration so as to gradually come to a point when the passage from one state of existence into another is almost imperceptible. This is his last incarnation, as it were, for the shock of death no more stuns him. This is the idea the writer of the article on the Elixir of Life means to convey, when he says:--=20 By or about the time when the Death-limit of his race is passed HE IS ACTUALLY DEAD, in the ordinary sense, that is to say, that he has relieved himself of all or nearly all such material particles as would have necessitated in disruption the agony of dying. He has been dying gradually the whole period of his Initiation. The catastrophe cannot happen twice over. He has only spread over a number of years the mild process of dissolution which others endure from a brief moment to a few hours. The highest Adept is in fact dead to, and absolutely unconscious of, the World--he is oblivious of its pleasures, careless of its miseries--in so fa= r as sentimentalism goes, for the stern sense of DUTY never leaves him blind to its very existence. . . .=20 The process of the emission and attraction of atoms, which the occultist controls, has been discussed at length in that article and in other writings. It is by these means that he gets rid gradually of all the old gross particles of his body, substituting for them finer and more ethereal ones, till at last the former sthula sarira is completely dead and disintegrated and he lives in a body entirely of his own creation, suited t= o his work.=20 That body is essential for his purposes, for, as the Elixir of Life says:--= =20 But to do good, as in every thing else, a man must have time and materials to work with, and this is a necessary means to the acquirement of powers by which infinitely more good can be done than without them. When these are once mastered, the opportunities to use them will arrive. . . .=20 In another place, in giving the practical instructions for that purpose, th= e same article says:=20 The physical man must be rendered more ethereal and sensitive; the mental man more penetrating and profound; the moral man more self-denying and philosophical.=20 The above important considerations are lost sight of by those who snatch away from the context the following passage in the same article:--=20 And from this account too, it will be perceptible how foolish it is for people to ask the Theosophists "to procure for them communication with the highest Adepts." It is with the utmost difficulty that one or two can be induced, even by the throes of a world, to injure their own progress by meddling with mundane affairs.=20 The ordinary reader will say--"This is not God-1ike. This is the acme of selfishness" . . . . But let him realise that a very high Adept, undertakin= g to reform the world, would necessarily have to once more submit to Incarnation. And is the result of all that have gone before in that line sufficiently encouraging to prompt a renewal of the attempt?=20 Now, in condemning the above passage as inculcating selfishness, superficia= l readers and thinkers lose sight of various important considerations. In the first place, they forget the other extracts already quoted which impose self-denial as a necessary condition of success, and which say that, with progress, new senses and new powers are acquired with which infinitely more good can be done than without them.=20 The more spiritual the Adept becomes, the less can he meddle with mundane, gross affairs and the more he has to confine himself to a spiritual work. I= t has been repeated, time out of number, that the work on a spiritual plane i= s as superior to the work on an intellectual plane as the one on the latter plane is superior to that on a physical plane.=20 The very high Adepts, therefore, do help humanity, but only spiritually: they are constitutionally incapable of meddling with worldly affairs. But this applies only to very high Adepts. There are various degrees of Adeptship, and those of each degree work for humanity on the planes to whic= h they may have risen. It is only the chelas that can live in the world, unti= l they rise to a certain degree. And it is because the Adepts do care for the world that they make their chelas live in and work for it, as many of those who study the subject are aware. Each cycle produces its own occultists who will be able to work for the humanity of those times on all the different planes; but when the Adepts foresee that at a particular period the then humanity will be incapable of producing occultists for work on particular planes, for such occasions they do provide by either giving up voluntarily their further progress and waiting in those particular degrees until humanity reaches that period, or by refusing to enter into Nirvana and submitting to re-incarnation in time to reach those degrees when humanity will require their assistance at that stage. And although the world may not be aware of the fact, yet there are even now certain Adepts who have preferred to remain statu quo and refuse to take the higher degrees, for th= e benefit of the future generations of humanity.=20 In short, as the Adepts work harmoniously, since unity is the fundamental law of their being, they have as it were made a division of labour, according to which each works on the plane at the time allotted to him, for the spiritual elevation of us all--and the process of longevity mentioned i= n the ELIXIR OF LIFE is only the means to the end which, far from being selfish, is the most unselfish purpose for which a human being can labour.= =20 H P B Theosophist, July, 1884=20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: On Behalf Of Compiler Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 10:07 AM To:=20 Subject:=20 About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Aug 01 16:55:08 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 25910 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2005 23:55:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2005 23:55:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.64) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2005 23:55:05 -0000 Received: from [209.179.142.36] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dzk7O-0005VX-Re; Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:54:56 -0400 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 16:54:39 -0700 Message-ID: <001101c596f4$6764e7e0$47dbb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79697d3f0cb750fd38a96cdfca18c0561e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.64 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: [theosophia] About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=3i5h2GULlrSKWyXT-StUNwEE0k3lwtJ2lzjcVtkP4FiK_Q X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Aug 1 2005 Dear Jerry: As far as common sense says it is reasonable to use without taking undue advantage of that which current technology provides. And of course Karma i= s attached to that decision. The real question is: Why do we stay alive? What are we contributing positively to the world and the rest of humanity? I agree with the saying attributed to Jesus. If we live only for ourselves, or out of fear of death and the "great unknown," then the resulting Karma is different. I cannot find for myself and ability to think, any good reason to deny the continuity of the Monad (myself and others). As to the view that reality is the very narrow transaction of an evanescent and fleeting present I cannot see that it is entirely logical.=20 I find HPB saying in TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE , p. 30 of the U L T Edn.: " Maya is the perceptive faculty of every Ego which considers itself a Unit separate from, and independent of the ONE infinite and eterna= l SAT, or "be-ness." What then is the Ego ? Again H P B writes: ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISHISTADVAITA --HPB Articles III, p. 265: "whether it be orthodox Adwaita or not, I maintain as an occultist, on the authority of the Secret Doctrine, that though merged entirely into Parabrahm, man's spirit while not individual per se, yet preserves its distinct individuality in Paranirvana, owing to the accumulation in it of the aggregates, or skandhas that have survived after each death, from the highest faculties of the Manas. The most spiritual--i.e., the highest and divinest aspirations of every personality follow Buddhi and the Seventh Principle into Devachan (Swarga) after the death of each personality along the line of rebirths, and become part and parcel of the Monad. The personality fades out, disappearing befor= e the occurrence of the evolution of the new personality (rebirth) out of Devachan: but the individuality of the spirit-soul [dear, dear, what can be made out of this English!] is preserved to the end of the great cycle (Maha-Manwantara) when each Ego enters Paranirvana, or is merged in Parabrahm.=20 To our talpatic, or mole-like, comprehension the human spirit is then lost in the One Spirit, as the drop of water thrown into the sea can no longer b= e traced out and recovered. But de facto it is not so in the world of immaterial thought.=20 This latter stands in relation to the human dynamic thought, as, say, the visual power through the strongest conceivable microscope would to the sigh= t of a half-blind man: and yet even this is a most insufficient simile--the difference is "inexpressible in terms of foot-pounds."=20 That such Parabrahmic and Paranirvanic "spirits," or units, have and must preserve their divine (not human) individualities, is shown in the fact that, however long the "night of Brahma" or even the Universal Pralaya (not the local Pralaya affecting some one group of worlds) yet, when it ends, th= e same individual Divine Monad resumes its majestic path of evolution, though on a higher, hundredfold perfected and more pure chain of earths than before, and brings with it all the essence of compound spiritualities from its previous countless rebirths.=20 Spiral evolution, it must be remembered, is dual, and the path of spirituality turns, corkscrew-like, within and around physical, semi-physical, and supra-physical evolution. But I am being tempted into details which had best be left for the full consideration which their importance merits to my forthcoming work, the Secret Doctrine. " =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 H. P. BLAVATSKY Theosophist, January, 1886- -------------------------------------------------------- I recognize I am quoting doctrine, and the doctrine you have adopted (from one of the Buddhistic Schools) uses other terms and concepts of expressing them. But to me, while maya describes the eternal shifting of FORMS (composed of Monads of lesser experience) under the laws of Karma, this doe= s not dispel or obviate the ETERNAL MONAD that is my egoic base (nor that of any other =A1=B0Eternal Pilgrim.=A1=B1 ) HPB continues on p. 30 of Transactions:=20 =A1=B0Maya, illusion or ignorance =A1=ADawakens Nidanas; and the cause or c= auses having been produced, the effects follow according to Karmic law. Having then produced this cause, the whole discord of life follows immediately as an effect; in reality it is the endeavour of nature to restore harmony and maintain equilibrium.=A1=B1=20 As to "replaceable parts: I would say that in view of ever acting maya and due to the eternal exchange of atoms and molecules, such "parts" are son altered into compatible bases for sustaining cooperative life in our gross physical bodies. You speak of fear. True, the personality that has not reconciled the eternal puzzle of its existence and relation with the Higher Self and the Ego in man, has not logically provided itself with a reasonable basis for understanding its continuity -- and it does have a continuity -- call it a memory if you will, but he "good" that a man does ever remains as evidence that he lived then!, and lives now. In The KEY TO THEOSOPHY, HPB writes: "...memory is one thing and mind or thought is another; one is a recording machine, a register which very easily gets out of order; the other (thoughts) are eternal and imperishable. Would you refuse to believe in the existence of certain things or men only because your physical eyes have not seen them? Would not the collective testimony of past generations who have seen him be a sufficient guarantee that Julius Caesar once lived? Why shoul= d not the same testimony of the psychic senses of the masses be taken into consideration?=20 =20 ENQUIRER. But don't you think that these are too fine distinctions to be accepted by the majority of mortals?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Say rather by the majority of materialists. And to them we say= , behold: even in the short span of ordinary existence, memory is too weak to register all the events of a lifetime. How frequently do even most importan= t events lie dormant in our memory until awakened by some association of ideas, or aroused to function and activity by some other link. This is especially the case with people of advanced age, who are always found suffering from feebleness of recollection. When, therefore, we remember tha= t which we know about the physical and the spiritual principles in man, it is not the fact that our memory has failed to record our precedent life and lives that ought to surprise us, but the contrary, were it to happen.=20 =20 WHY DO WE NOT REMEMBER OUR PAST LIVES? ENQUIRER. You have given me a bird's eye view of the seven principles; now how do they account for our complete loss of any recollection of having lived before?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Very easily. Since those "principles" which we call physical, and none of which is denied by science, though it calls them by other names= , * are disintegrated after death with their constituent elements, memory along with its brain, this vanished memory of a vanished personality, can neither remember nor record anything in the subsequent reincarnation of the EGO.=20 Reincarnation means that this Ego will be furnished with a new body, a new brain, and a new memory. Therefore it would be as absurd to expect this memory to remember that which it has never recorded as it would be idle to examine under a microscope a shirt never worn by a murderer, and seek on it for the stains of blood which are to be found only on the clothes he wore. It is not the clean shirt that we have to question, but the clothes worn during the perpetration of the crime; and if these are burnt and destroyed, how can you get at them?=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Aye! how can you get at the certainty that the crime was ever committed at all, or that the "man in the clean shirt" ever lived before?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Not by physical processes, most assuredly; nor by relying on the testimony of that which exists no longer. But there is such a thing as circumstantial evidence, since our wise laws accept it, more, perhaps, even than they should. To get convinced of the fact of re-incarnation and past lives, one must put oneself in rapport with one's real permanent Ego, not one's evanescent memory. ... =20 ENQUIRER. But how can people believe in that which they do not know, nor have ever seen, far less put themselves in rapport with it?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. If people, and the most learned, will believe in the Gravity, Ether, Force, and what not of Science, abstractions "and working hypotheses= , " which they have neither seen, touched, smelt, heard, nor tasted=A8D why should not other people believe, on the same principle, in one's permanent Ego, a far more logical and important "working hypothesis" than any other?= =20 =20 ENQUIRER. What is, finally, this mysterious eternal principle? Can you explain its nature so as to make it comprehensible to all?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. The EGO which re-incarnates, the individual and immortal =A8Dn= ot personal=A8D "I"; the vehicle, in short, of the Atma-Buddhic MONAD, that wh= ich is rewarded in Devachan and punished on earth, and that, finally, to which the reflection only of the Skandhas, or attributes, of every incarnation attaches itself. [There are five Skandhas or attributes in the Buddhist teachings: "Rupa (form or body), material qualities; Vedana, sensation; Sanna, abstract ideas; Samkhara, tendencies of mind; Vinnana, mental powers= . Of these we are formed; by them we are conscious of existence; and through them communicate with the world about us."] =20 ENQUIRER. What do you mean by Skandhas?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Just what I said: "attributes," among which is memory, all of which perish like a flower, leaving behind them only a feeble perfume. Here is another paragraph from H. S. Olcott's "Buddhist Catechism"=A8o which bea= rs directly upon the subject. It deals with the question as follows:=A8D=20 "The aged man remembers the incidents of his youth, despite his being physically and mentally changed. Why, then, is not the recollection of past lives brought over by us from our last birth into the present birth? Becaus= e memory is included within the Skandhas, and the Skandhas having changed wit= h the new existence, a memory, the record of that particular existence, develops. Yet the record or reflection of all the past lives must survive, for when Prince Siddhartha became Buddha, the full sequence of His previous births were seen by Him. . . . and any one who attains to the state of Jhan= a can thus retrospectively trace the line of his lives."=20 This proves to you that while the undying qualities of the personality=A8D such as love, goodness, charity, etc.=A8D attach themselves to the immorta= l Ego, photographing on it, so to speak, a permanent image of the divine aspect of the man who was, his material Skandhas (those which generate the most marked Karmic effects) are as evanescent as a flash of lightning, and cannot impress the new brain of the new personality; yet their failing to d= o so impairs in no way the identity of the re-incarnating Ego.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Do you mean to infer that that which survives is only the Soul-memory, as you call it, that Soul or Ego being one and the same, while nothing of the personality remains?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Not quite; something of each personality, unless the latter wa= s an absolute materialist with not even a chink in his nature for a spiritual ray to pass through, must survive, as it leaves its eternal impress on the incarnating permanent Self or Spiritual Ego. [ Or the Spiritual, in contradistinction to the personal Self. The student must not confuse this Spiritual Ego with the "HIGHER SELF" which is Atma, the God within us, and inseparable from the Universal Spirit.] ...=20 The personality with its Skandhas is ever changing with every new birth. It is, as said before, only the part played by the actor (the true Ego) for on= e night. This is why we preserve no memory on the physical plane of our past lives, though the real "Ego" has lived them over and knows them all.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Then how does it happen that the real or Spiritual man does not impress his new personal "I" with this knowledge?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. How is it that the servant-girls in a poor farm-house could speak Hebrew and play the violin in their trance or somnambulic state, and knew neither when in their normal condition? Because, as every genuine psychologist of the old, not your modern, school, will tell you, the Spiritual Ego can act only when the personal Ego is paralysed. The Spiritua= l "I" in man is omniscient and has every knowledge innate in it; while the personal self is the creature of its environment and the slave of the physical memory. Could the former manifest itself uninterruptedly, and without impediment, there would be no longer men on earth, but we should al= l be gods.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Still there ought to be exceptions, and some ought to remember.=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. And so there are. But who believes in their report? Such sensitives are generally regarded as hallucinated hysteriacs, as crack-brained enthusiasts, or humbugs, by modern materialism. Let them read= , however, works on this subject pre-eminently "Reincarnation, a Study of Forgotten Truth" by E. D. Walker, F. T. S., and see in it the mass of proof= s which the able author brings to bear on this vexed question.=20 One speaks to people of soul, and some ask "What is Soul?" "Have you ever proved its existence?" Of course it is useless to argue with those who are materialists. But even to them I would put the question: "Can you remember what you were or did when a baby? Have you preserved the smallest recollection of your life, thoughts, or deeds, or that you lived at all during the first eighteen months or two years of your existence? Then why not deny that you have ever lived as a babe, on the same principle?" When t= o all this we add that the reincarnating Ego, or individuality, retains durin= g the Devachanic period merely the essence of the experience of its past earth-life or personality, the whole physical experience involving into a state of in potentia, or being, so to speak, translated into spiritual formulae; when we remember further that the term between two rebirths is said to extend from ten to fifteen centuries, during which time the physica= l consciousness is totally and absolutely inactive, having no organs to act through, and therefore no existence, the reason for the absence of all remembrance in the purely physical memory is apparent.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. You just said that the SPIRITUAL EGO was omniscient. Where, then, is that vaunted omniscience during his Devachanic life, as you call it?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. During that time it is latent and potential, because, first of all, the Spiritual Ego (the compound of Buddhi-Manas) is not the HIGHER SELF, which being one with the Universal Soul or Mind is alone omniscient; and, secondly, because Devachan is the idealized continuation of the terrestrial life just left behind, a period of retributive adjustment, and = a reward for unmerited wrongs and sufferings undergone in that special life.= =20 It is omniscient only potentially in Devachan, and de facto exclusively in Nirvana, when the Ego is merged in the Universal Mind-Soul. Yet it rebecome= s quasi omniscient during those hours on earth when certain abnormal conditions and physiological changes in the body make the Ego free from the trammels of matter.=20 Thus the examples cited above of somnambulists, a poor servant speaking Hebrew, and another playing the violin, give you an illustration of the cas= e in point. This does not mean that the explanations of these two facts offered us by medical science have no truth in them, for one girl had, year= s before, heard her master, a clergyman, read Hebrew works aloud, and the other had heard an artist playing a violin at their farm.=20 But neither could have done so as perfectly as they did had they not been ensouled by THAT which, owing to the sameness of its nature with the Universal Mind, is omniscient. Here the higher principle acted on the Skandhas and moved them; in the other, the personality being paralysed, the individuality manifested itself. Pray do not confuse the two. =20 ON INDIVIDUALITY AND PERSONALITY *=20 ENQUIRER. But what is the difference between the two? I confess that I am still in the dark. Indeed it is just that difference, then, that you cannot impress too much on our minds. =20 * Even in his Buddhist Catechism, Col. Olcott, forced to it by the logic o= f Esoteric philosophy, found himself obliged to correct the mistakes of previous Orientalists who made no such distinction, and gives the reader hi= s reasons for it. Thus he says: "The successive appearances upon the earth, o= r 'descents into generation,' of the tanhaically coherent parts (Skandhas) of a certain being, are a succession of personalities. In each birth the PERSONALITY differs from that of a previous or next succeeding birth. Karma= , the DEUS EX MACHINA, masks (or shall we say reflects?) itself now in the personality of a sage, again as an artisan, and so on throughout the string of births. But though personalities ever shift, the one line of life along which they are strung, like beads, runs unbroken; it is ever that particula= r line, never any other. It is therefore individual, an individual vital undulation, which began in Nirvana, or the subjective side of nature, as th= e light or heat undulation through aether began at its dynamic source; is careering through the objective side of nature under the impulse of Karma and the creative direction of Tanha (the unsatisfied desire for existence); and leads through many cyclic changes back to Nirvana. Mr. Rhys-Davids call= s that which passes from personality to personality along the individual chai= n 'character,' or 'doing.' Since 'character' is not a mere metaphysical abstraction, but the sum of one's mental qualities and moral propensities, would it not help to dispel what Mr. Rhys-Davids calls 'the desperate expedient of a mystery' (Buddhism, p. 101) if we regarded the life-undulation as individuality, and each of its series of natal manifestations as a separate personality? The perfect individual, Buddhistically speaking, is a Buddha, I should say; for Buddha is but the rare flower of humanity, without the least supernatural admixture. And as countless generations ('four asankheyyas and a hundred thousand cycles,' Fausboll and Rhys-Davids' BUDDHIST BIRTH STORIES, p. 13) are required to develop a man into a Buddha, and the iron will to become one runs throughou= t all the successive births, what shall we call that which thus wills and perseveres? Character? One's individuality: an individuality but partly manifested in any one birth, but built up of fragments from all the births?= " (Bud. Cat., Appendix A. 137.) [Key pp. 126 - 134] Now this is long enough, I hope it puts my points clearer. Best wishes,=20 Dallas =20 -----Original Message----- From: Gerald=20 Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 1:19 PM To:=20 Subject: About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics Well I suppose I might as well put in my two cents here. DTB Modern physiology is using the physical visible cells and their contents to try to effect regeneration of failing cell structures, or to bring on b= y physiological means conceptions where Karmically -- under the normal process of bodily self-restoration -- it may not be possible for the body to achieve the healing or the reproduction desires.=20 GS Dal, in my own opinion I don't see any difference in using stem cells or aspirin. I have heart failure. My life is currently being sustained by heart medications that I take each day. My wife has a laundry list of physical problems and her life is also being sustained by daily pills. If left alone, we would have both died some years ago. So viv la medicine. I like modern medicine., but I do not care much for the medical model which is a one-size-fits-all model. DTB It all starts with DESIRE and with the TANHAIC FEELING that a long life is desirable, and death is to be deferred for as long as possible, using any and every means.=20 GS Why do we eat food? Is it not to sustain life? Why bother to breath? Is it not to sustain life? What is the difference between eating a salad and eating a pill? Both are chemicals that combine in the body and do things to sustain the body. We avoid meat if we think that it is bad for us, and we eat salads if we think that they are good for us. It is all a matter of belief. Jesus said that what comes out of our mouth is more important that what goes into it. I think that he was right. DTB Karma, reincarnation, individual effects for deeds in past lives now manifesting at least 3 causes. These relate to the Monads of lesser experience who aggregate around a Monad to provide it with its personality in this life through which it progresses morally, ethically and intellectually.=20=20 GS If you want to believe in past lives and so on, then you are free to do so. Your "monads of lesser experience" are mayavic illusions, but if you want to worry about them and so on, you are free to do so. I see no difference between bodies, organs, cells, atoms, and monads. Any differences are purely intellectual hair-splitting.=20 DTB Modern medicine knows little of this. >> GS To which I wonder, so what? DTB Students of THEOSOPHY are generally ignorant of medicine. And they do not know the ins and outs of the Astral or of Karma.=20 GS Ignorance is no excuse. Or is it? CUT From ringding@online.de Mon Aug 01 20:44:54 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 95717 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2005 03:44:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2005 03:44:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.183) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2005 03:44:53 -0000 Received: from p54BF8E95.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.142.149] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKxQS-1Dznhq2DQJ-0007Ls; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:44:42 +0200 Message-ID: <000d01c59714$b884d3e0$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: References: <001101c596f4$6764e7e0$47dbb3d1@DALLAS> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 05:46:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.183 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [theosophia] About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=isWrd_q6NrVfrLhDhD5CvBeAvfF0o15nLvouXn6H7qfphFr8TSTeAhM3fQ X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer ==>Again H P B writes: ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISHISTADVAITA --HPB Articles III, p. 265: "whether it be orthodox Adwaita or not, I maintain as an occultist, on the authority of the Secret Doctrine, that though merged entirely into Parabrahm, man's spirit while not individual per se, yet preserves its distinct individuality in Paranirvana, owing to the accumulation in it of the aggregates, or skandhas that have survived after each death, from the highest faculties of the Manas. Dear Dallas, I have heard, that HPB's term Paranirvana is a misspelling and should be wrote Parinirvana instead. Frank From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Aug 02 07:40:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13262 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2005 14:40:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2005 14:40:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web33414.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.206.146) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2005 14:40:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 73802 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Aug 2005 14:40:18 -0000 Message-ID: <20050802144018.73800.qmail@web33414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.21.100] by web33414.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:40:18 PDT Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:40:18 -0700 (PDT) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: 68.142.206.146 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "D. Caldwell" Subject: Hinduism: 26 Recommended Titles X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=Lu_0y2BrPPabDmhgZvCABdQsgh0XSdzPI6dbQBHUGsQ3rXtd1lAl3Ma0 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Hinduism -- Introductions, Anthologies, Dictionaries & Other Resources: 26 Recommended Titles See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/hinduism/hinduismbooks1.htm These titles constitute a core library of books on the subject of Hinduism. See also recommended titles on other subjects at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/index.htm#bookstore Daniel Blavatsky Study Center Blavatsky Bookstore http://blavatskyarchives.com thls othls ltls From david-blankenship@comcast.net Tue Aug 02 08:15:08 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: david-blankenship@comcast.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61433 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2005 15:15:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2005 15:15:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sccrmhc13.comcast.net) (63.240.76.28) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2005 15:15:08 -0000 Received: from 204.127.205.144 ([204.127.205.144]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2005080214373701300qcafje>; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:37:37 +0000 Received: from [67.187.182.83] by 204.127.205.144; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:37:37 +0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:37:37 +0000 Message-Id: <080220051437.17986.42EF852F0004DEB80000464222007348409F07089C020A05020E040DD30B07900E0B@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Dec 17 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: ZGF2aWQtYmxhbmtlbnNoaXBAY29tY2FzdC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 63.240.76.28 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: david-blankenship@comcast.net Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [theosophia] About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=161088079; y=RXG9viNDB9WYlJHx3dK62ilK0T7nWcl8yvBZ2RnDKrvblJyIHg Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is difficult to see where karma would apply. The bill in the Hous= e and Senate concerns non-viable eggs that would be destroyed anyway. Ther= e is a concern that fertility clinics would make extra eggs for the harvest= ing of stems cells, but that objection could be addressed in the bill. Som= e people have an objection to any use of these cells, but it is difficult t= o see since the law allows the use of organ donations of brain dead people = and same reasoning would seem to apply. Perhaps some one could explain it = to the group. David B. -------------- Original message --------------=20 > Aug 1 2005=20 >=20 > Dear Jerry:=20 >=20 > As far as common sense says it is reasonable to use without taking undue= =20 > advantage of that which current technology provides. And of course Karma = is=20 > attached to that decision.=20 >=20 > The real question is: Why do we stay alive? What are we contributing=20 > positively to the world and the rest of humanity? I agree with the saying= =20 > attributed to Jesus.=20 >=20 > If we live only for ourselves, or out of fear of death and the "great=20 > unknown," then the resulting Karma is different.=20 >=20 > I cannot find for myself and ability to think, any good reason to deny th= e=20 > continuity of the Monad (myself and others).=20 >=20 > As to the view that reality is the very narrow transaction of an evanesce= nt=20 > and fleeting present I cannot see that it is entirely logical.=20 >=20 > I find HPB saying in TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE , p. 30 of the U= =20 > L T Edn.: " Maya is the perceptive faculty of every Ego which considers=20 > itself a Unit separate from, and independent of the ONE infinite and eter= nal=20 > SAT, or "be-ness."=20 >=20 > What then is the Ego ?=20 >=20 > Again H P B writes: ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISHISTADVAITA --HPB Articles=20 > III, p. 265:=20 >=20 > "whether it be orthodox Adwaita or not, I maintain as an occultist, on th= e=20 > authority of the Secret Doctrine, that though merged entirely into=20 > Parabrahm, man's spirit while not individual per se, yet preserves its=20 > distinct individuality in Paranirvana, owing to the accumulation in it of= =20 > the aggregates, or skandhas that have survived after each death, from the= =20 > highest faculties of the Manas.=20 >=20 > The most spiritual--i.e., the highest and divinest aspirations of every=20 > personality follow Buddhi and the Seventh Principle into Devachan (Swarga= )=20 > after the death of each personality along the line of rebirths, and becom= e=20 > part and parcel of the Monad. The personality fades out, disappearing bef= ore=20 > the occurrence of the evolution of the new personality (rebirth) out of=20 > Devachan: but the individuality of the spirit-soul [dear, dear, what can = be=20 > made out of this English!] is preserved to the end of the great cycle=20 > (Maha-Manwantara) when each Ego enters Paranirvana, or is merged in=20 > Parabrahm.=20 >=20 > To our talpatic, or mole-like, comprehension the human spirit is then los= t=20 > in the One Spirit, as the drop of water thrown into the sea can no longer= be=20 > traced out and recovered. But de facto it is not so in the world of=20 > immaterial thought.=20 > This latter stands in relation to the human dynamic thought, as, say, the= =20 > visual power through the strongest conceivable microscope would to the si= ght=20 > of a half-blind man: and yet even this is a most insufficient simile--the= =20 > difference is "inexpressible in terms of foot-pounds."=20 >=20 > That such Parabrahmic and Paranirvanic "spirits," or units, have and must= =20 > preserve their divine (not human) individualities, is shown in the fact=20 > that, however long the "night of Brahma" or even the Universal Pralaya (n= ot=20 > the local Pralaya affecting some one group of worlds) yet, when it ends, = the=20 > same individual Divine Monad resumes its majestic path of evolution, thou= gh=20 > on a higher, hundredfold perfected and more pure chain of earths than=20 > before, and brings with it all the essence of compound spiritualities fro= m=20 > its previous countless rebirths.=20 >=20 > Spiral evolution, it must be remembered, is dual, and the path of=20 > spirituality turns, corkscrew-like, within and around physical,=20 > semi-physical, and supra-physical evolution. But I am being tempted into= =20 > details which had best be left for the full consideration which their=20 > importance merits to my forthcoming work, the Secret Doctrine. "=20 >=20 > H. P. BLAVATSKY=20 > Theosophist, January, 1886-=20 > --------------------------------------------------------=20 >=20 > I recognize I am quoting doctrine, and the doctrine you have adopted (fro= m=20 > one of the Buddhistic Schools) uses other terms and concepts of expressin= g=20 > them. But to me, while maya describes the eternal shifting of FORMS=20 > (composed of Monads of lesser experience) under the laws of Karma, this d= oes=20 > not dispel or obviate the ETERNAL MONAD that is my egoic base (nor that o= f=20 > any other =A1=B0Eternal Pilgrim.=A1=B1 )=20 >=20 > HPB continues on p. 30 of Transactions:=20 >=20 > =A1=B0Maya, illusion or ignorance =A1=ADawakens Nidanas; and the cause or= causes=20 > having been produced, the effects follow according to Karmic law. Having= =20 > then produced this cause, the whole discord of life follows immediately a= s=20 > an effect; in reality it is the endeavour of nature to restore harmony an= d=20 > maintain equilibrium.=A1=B1=20 >=20 > As to "replaceable parts: I would say that in view of ever acting maya an= d=20 > due to the eternal exchange of atoms and molecules, such "parts" are son= =20 > altered into compatible bases for sustaining cooperative life in our gros= s=20 > physical bodies.=20 >=20 > You speak of fear. True, the personality that has not reconciled the=20 > eternal puzzle of its existence and relation with the Higher Self and the= =20 > Ego in man, has not logically provided itself with a reasonable basis for= =20 > understanding its continuity -- and it does have a continuity -- call it = a=20 > memory if you will, but he "good" that a man does ever remains as evidenc= e=20 > that he lived then!, and lives now.=20 >=20 > In The KEY TO THEOSOPHY, HPB writes:=20 >=20 > "...memory is one thing and mind or thought is another; one is a recordin= g=20 > machine, a register which very easily gets out of order; the other=20 > (thoughts) are eternal and imperishable. Would you refuse to believe in t= he=20 > existence of certain things or men only because your physical eyes have n= ot=20 > seen them? Would not the collective testimony of past generations who hav= e=20 > seen him be a sufficient guarantee that Julius Caesar once lived? Why sho= uld=20 > not the same testimony of the psychic senses of the masses be taken into= =20 > consideration?=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. But don't you think that these are too fine distinctions to be= =20 > accepted by the majority of mortals?=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. Say rather by the majority of materialists. And to them we s= ay,=20 > behold: even in the short span of ordinary existence, memory is too weak = to=20 > register all the events of a lifetime. How frequently do even most import= ant=20 > events lie dormant in our memory until awakened by some association of=20 > ideas, or aroused to function and activity by some other link. This is=20 > especially the case with people of advanced age, who are always found=20 > suffering from feebleness of recollection. When, therefore, we remember t= hat=20 > which we know about the physical and the spiritual principles in man, it = is=20 > not the fact that our memory has failed to record our precedent life and= =20 > lives that ought to surprise us, but the contrary, were it to happen.=20 >=20 >=20 > WHY DO WE NOT REMEMBER OUR PAST LIVES?=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. You have given me a bird's eye view of the seven principles; no= w=20 > how do they account for our complete loss of any recollection of having=20 > lived before?=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. Very easily. Since those "principles" which we call physical= ,=20 > and none of which is denied by science, though it calls them by other nam= es,=20 > * are disintegrated after death with their constituent elements, memory=20 > along with its brain, this vanished memory of a vanished personality, can= =20 > neither remember nor record anything in the subsequent reincarnation of t= he=20 > EGO.=20 >=20 > Reincarnation means that this Ego will be furnished with a new body, a ne= w=20 > brain, and a new memory. Therefore it would be as absurd to expect this=20 > memory to remember that which it has never recorded as it would be idle t= o=20 > examine under a microscope a shirt never worn by a murderer, and seek on = it=20 > for the stains of blood which are to be found only on the clothes he wore= .=20 > It is not the clean shirt that we have to question, but the clothes worn= =20 > during the perpetration of the crime; and if these are burnt and destroye= d,=20 > how can you get at them?=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. Aye! how can you get at the certainty that the crime was ever=20 > committed at all, or that the "man in the clean shirt" ever lived before?= =20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. Not by physical processes, most assuredly; nor by relying on= =20 > the testimony of that which exists no longer. But there is such a thing a= s=20 > circumstantial evidence, since our wise laws accept it, more, perhaps, ev= en=20 > than they should. To get convinced of the fact of re-incarnation and past= =20 > lives, one must put oneself in rapport with one's real permanent Ego, not= =20 > one's evanescent memory. ...=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. But how can people believe in that which they do not know, nor= =20 > have ever seen, far less put themselves in rapport with it?=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. If people, and the most learned, will believe in the Gravity= ,=20 > Ether, Force, and what not of Science, abstractions "and working hypothes= es,=20 > " which they have neither seen, touched, smelt, heard, nor tasted=A8D why= =20 > should not other people believe, on the same principle, in one's permanen= t=20 > Ego, a far more logical and important "working hypothesis" than any other= ?=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. What is, finally, this mysterious eternal principle? Can you=20 > explain its nature so as to make it comprehensible to all?=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. The EGO which re-incarnates, the individual and immortal =A8= Dnot=20 > personal=A8D "I"; the vehicle, in short, of the Atma-Buddhic MONAD, that = which=20 > is rewarded in Devachan and punished on earth, and that, finally, to whic= h=20 > the reflection only of the Skandhas, or attributes, of every incarnation= =20 > attaches itself. [There are five Skandhas or attributes in the Buddhist=20 > teachings: "Rupa (form or body), material qualities; Vedana, sensation;=20 > Sanna, abstract ideas; Samkhara, tendencies of mind; Vinnana, mental powe= rs.=20 > Of these we are formed; by them we are conscious of existence; and throug= h=20 > them communicate with the world about us."]=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. What do you mean by Skandhas?=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. Just what I said: "attributes," among which is memory, all o= f=20 > which perish like a flower, leaving behind them only a feeble perfume. He= re=20 > is another paragraph from H. S. Olcott's "Buddhist Catechism"=A8o which b= ears=20 > directly upon the subject. It deals with the question as follows:=A8D=20 >=20 > "The aged man remembers the incidents of his youth, despite his being=20 > physically and mentally changed. Why, then, is not the recollection of pa= st=20 > lives brought over by us from our last birth into the present birth? Beca= use=20 > memory is included within the Skandhas, and the Skandhas having changed w= ith=20 > the new existence, a memory, the record of that particular existence,=20 > develops. Yet the record or reflection of all the past lives must survive= ,=20 > for when Prince Siddhartha became Buddha, the full sequence of His previo= us=20 > births were seen by Him. . . . and any one who attains to the state of Jh= ana=20 > can thus retrospectively trace the line of his lives."=20 >=20 > This proves to you that while the undying qualities of the personality=A8= D=20 > such as love, goodness, charity, etc.=A8D attach themselves to the immort= al=20 > Ego, photographing on it, so to speak, a permanent image of the divine=20 > aspect of the man who was, his material Skandhas (those which generate th= e=20 > most marked Karmic effects) are as evanescent as a flash of lightning, an= d=20 > cannot impress the new brain of the new personality; yet their failing to= do=20 > so impairs in no way the identity of the re-incarnating Ego.=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. Do you mean to infer that that which survives is only the=20 > Soul-memory, as you call it, that Soul or Ego being one and the same, whi= le=20 > nothing of the personality remains?=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. Not quite; something of each personality, unless the latter = was=20 > an absolute materialist with not even a chink in his nature for a spiritu= al=20 > ray to pass through, must survive, as it leaves its eternal impress on th= e=20 > incarnating permanent Self or Spiritual Ego. [ Or the Spiritual, in=20 > contradistinction to the personal Self. The student must not confuse this= =20 > Spiritual Ego with the "HIGHER SELF" which is Atma, the God within us, an= d=20 > inseparable from the Universal Spirit.] ...=20 >=20 > The personality with its Skandhas is ever changing with every new birth. = It=20 > is, as said before, only the part played by the actor (the true Ego) for = one=20 > night. This is why we preserve no memory on the physical plane of our pas= t=20 > lives, though the real "Ego" has lived them over and knows them all.=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. Then how does it happen that the real or Spiritual man does not= =20 > impress his new personal "I" with this knowledge?=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. How is it that the servant-girls in a poor farm-house could= =20 > speak Hebrew and play the violin in their trance or somnambulic state, an= d=20 > knew neither when in their normal condition? Because, as every genuine=20 > psychologist of the old, not your modern, school, will tell you, the=20 > Spiritual Ego can act only when the personal Ego is paralysed. The Spirit= ual=20 > "I" in man is omniscient and has every knowledge innate in it; while the= =20 > personal self is the creature of its environment and the slave of the=20 > physical memory. Could the former manifest itself uninterruptedly, and=20 > without impediment, there would be no longer men on earth, but we should = all=20 > be gods.=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. Still there ought to be exceptions, and some ought to remember.= =20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. And so there are. But who believes in their report? Such=20 > sensitives are generally regarded as hallucinated hysteriacs, as=20 > crack-brained enthusiasts, or humbugs, by modern materialism. Let them re= ad,=20 > however, works on this subject pre-eminently "Reincarnation, a Study of=20 > Forgotten Truth" by E. D. Walker, F. T. S., and see in it the mass of pro= ofs=20 > which the able author brings to bear on this vexed question.=20 >=20 > One speaks to people of soul, and some ask "What is Soul?" "Have you ever= =20 > proved its existence?" Of course it is useless to argue with those who ar= e=20 > materialists. But even to them I would put the question: "Can you remembe= r=20 > what you were or did when a baby? Have you preserved the smallest=20 > recollection of your life, thoughts, or deeds, or that you lived at all=20 > during the first eighteen months or two years of your existence? Then why= =20 > not deny that you have ever lived as a babe, on the same principle?" When= to=20 > all this we add that the reincarnating Ego, or individuality, retains dur= ing=20 > the Devachanic period merely the essence of the experience of its past=20 > earth-life or personality, the whole physical experience involving into a= =20 > state of in potentia, or being, so to speak, translated into spiritual=20 > formulae; when we remember further that the term between two rebirths is= =20 > said to extend from ten to fifteen centuries, during which time the physi= cal=20 > consciousness is totally and absolutely inactive, having no organs to act= =20 > through, and therefore no existence, the reason for the absence of all=20 > remembrance in the purely physical memory is apparent.=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. You just said that the SPIRITUAL EGO was omniscient. Where, the= n,=20 > is that vaunted omniscience during his Devachanic life, as you call it?=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. During that time it is latent and potential, because, first = of=20 > all, the Spiritual Ego (the compound of Buddhi-Manas) is not the HIGHER=20 > SELF, which being one with the Universal Soul or Mind is alone omniscient= ;=20 > and, secondly, because Devachan is the idealized continuation of the=20 > terrestrial life just left behind, a period of retributive adjustment, an= d a=20 > reward for unmerited wrongs and sufferings undergone in that special life= .=20 >=20 > It is omniscient only potentially in Devachan, and de facto exclusively i= n=20 > Nirvana, when the Ego is merged in the Universal Mind-Soul. Yet it rebeco= mes=20 > quasi omniscient during those hours on earth when certain abnormal=20 > conditions and physiological changes in the body make the Ego free from t= he=20 > trammels of matter.=20 >=20 > Thus the examples cited above of somnambulists, a poor servant speaking=20 > Hebrew, and another playing the violin, give you an illustration of the c= ase=20 > in point. This does not mean that the explanations of these two facts=20 > offered us by medical science have no truth in them, for one girl had, ye= ars=20 > before, heard her master, a clergyman, read Hebrew works aloud, and the=20 > other had heard an artist playing a violin at their farm.=20 >=20 > But neither could have done so as perfectly as they did had they not been= =20 > ensouled by THAT which, owing to the sameness of its nature with the=20 > Universal Mind, is omniscient. Here the higher principle acted on the=20 > Skandhas and moved them; in the other, the personality being paralysed, t= he=20 > individuality manifested itself. Pray do not confuse the two.=20 >=20 >=20 > ON INDIVIDUALITY AND PERSONALITY *=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. But what is the difference between the two? I confess that I am= =20 > still in the dark. Indeed it is just that difference, then, that you cann= ot=20 > impress too much on our minds.=20 >=20 > * Even in his Buddhist Catechism, Col. Olcott, forced to it by the logic = of=20 > Esoteric philosophy, found himself obliged to correct the mistakes of=20 > previous Orientalists who made no such distinction, and gives the reader = his=20 > reasons for it. Thus he says: "The successive appearances upon the earth,= or=20 > 'descents into generation,' of the tanhaically coherent parts (Skandhas) = of=20 > a certain being, are a succession of personalities. In each birth the=20 > PERSONALITY differs from that of a previous or next succeeding birth. Kar= ma,=20 > the DEUS EX MACHINA, masks (or shall we say reflects?) itself now in the= =20 > personality of a sage, again as an artisan, and so on throughout the stri= ng=20 > of births. But though personalities ever shift, the one line of life alon= g=20 > which they are strung, like beads, runs unbroken; it is ever that particu= lar=20 > line, never any other. It is therefore individual, an individual vital=20 > undulation, which began in Nirvana, or the subjective side of nature, as = the=20 > light or heat undulation through aether began at its dynamic source; is=20 > careering through the objective side of nature under the impulse of Karma= =20 > and the creative direction of Tanha (the unsatisfied desire for existence= );=20 > and leads through many cyclic changes back to Nirvana. Mr. Rhys-Davids ca= lls=20 > that which passes from personality to personality along the individual ch= ain=20 > 'character,' or 'doing.' Since 'character' is not a mere metaphysical=20 > abstraction, but the sum of one's mental qualities and moral propensities= ,=20 > would it not help to dispel what Mr. Rhys-Davids calls 'the desperate=20 > expedient of a mystery' (Buddhism, p. 101) if we regarded the=20 > life-undulation as individuality, and each of its series of natal=20 > manifestations as a separate personality? The perfect individual,=20 > Buddhistically speaking, is a Buddha, I should say; for Buddha is but the= =20 > rare flower of humanity, without the least supernatural admixture. And as= =20 > countless generations ('four asankheyyas and a hundred thousand cycles,'= =20 > Fausboll and Rhys-Davids' BUDDHIST BIRTH STORIES, p. 13) are required to= =20 > develop a man into a Buddha, and the iron will to become one runs through= out=20 > all the successive births, what shall we call that which thus wills and=20 > perseveres? Character? One's individuality: an individuality but partly=20 > manifested in any one birth, but built up of fragments from all the birth= s?"=20 > (Bud. Cat., Appendix A. 137.) [Key pp. 126 - 134]=20 >=20 > Now this is long enough, I hope it puts my points clearer.=20 >=20 > Best wishes,=20 >=20 > Dallas=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message-----=20 > From: Gerald=20 > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 1:19 PM=20 > To:=20 > Subject: About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics=20 >=20 > Well I suppose I might as well put in my two cents here.=20 >=20 > DTB Modern physiology is using the physical visible cells and their=20 > contents=20 > to try to effect regeneration of failing cell structures, or to bring on = by=20 > physiological means conceptions where Karmically -- under the normal=20 > process of bodily self-restoration -- it may not be possible for the body= =20 > to=20 > achieve the healing or the reproduction desires.=20 >=20 > GS=20 > Dal, in my own opinion I don't see any difference in using stem cells or= =20 > aspirin. I have heart failure. My life is currently being sustained by=20 > heart medications that I take each day. My wife has a laundry list of=20 > physical problems and her life is also being sustained by daily pills. If= =20 > left alone, we would have both died some years ago. So viv la medicine. I= =20 > like modern medicine., but I do not care much for the medical model which= =20 > is a one-size-fits-all model.=20 >=20 >=20 > DTB It all starts with DESIRE and with the TANHAIC FEELING that a long=20 > life is desirable, and death is to be deferred for as long as possible,=20 > using any=20 > and every means.=20 >=20 > GS=20 > Why do we eat food? Is it not to sustain life? Why bother to breath? Is i= t=20 > not to sustain life? What is the difference between eating a salad and=20 > eating a pill? Both are chemicals that combine in the body and do things = to=20 > sustain the body. We avoid meat if we think that it is bad for us, and we= =20 > eat salads if we think that they are good for us. It is all a matter of=20 > belief. Jesus said that what comes out of our mouth is more important tha= t=20 > what goes into it. I think that he was right.=20 >=20 >=20 > DTB Karma, reincarnation, individual effects for deeds in past lives=20 > now=20 > manifesting at least 3 causes. These relate to the Monads of lesser=20 > experience who aggregate around a Monad to provide it with its personalit= y=20 > in this life through which it progresses morally, ethically and=20 > intellectually.=20 >=20 > GS=20 > If you want to believe in past lives and so on, then you are free to do s= o.=20 > Your "monads of lesser experience" are mayavic illusions, but if you want= =20 > to worry about them and so on, you are free to do so. I see no difference= =20 > between bodies, organs, cells, atoms, and monads. Any differences are=20 > purely intellectual hair-splitting.=20 >=20 >=20 > DTB Modern medicine knows little of this. >>=20 >=20 > GS=20 > To which I wonder, so what?=20 >=20 >=20 > DTB Students of THEOSOPHY are generally ignorant of medicine. And they=20 > do not know the ins and outs of the Astral or of Karma.=20 >=20 > GS=20 > Ignorance is no excuse. Or is it?=20 >=20 > CUT=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From compiler@wisdomworld.org Tue Aug 02 11:38:00 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 5869 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2005 18:37:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2005 18:37:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ams002.ftl.affinity.com) (216.219.253.98) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2005 18:37:56 -0000 Received: from [69.251.45.208] ([69.251.45.208]:10758 "EHLO wisdomworld.org") by ams002.ftl.affinity.com with ESMTP id S384168AbVHBShn (ORCPT ); Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:37:43 -0400 Message-ID: <42EFCB79.75657D2@wisdomworld.org> Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:37:28 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <42ED0327.EB6BE94C@wisdomworld.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 216.219.253.98 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Compiler Subject: Re: Theos-World About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=46028585; y=msTSiQpz3IZ_jVtjeZCk8zr8c-YI01TFCLQ-zfFtOgG52ckX4yYk X-Yahoo-Profile: john_compiler_wisdomworld This is just a P.S., a 1-paragraph continuation: Based on some responses in some of the forums that I posted the below message in, I want everyone to know that in no way, shape or form was the idea of getting the stem cells from ABORTIONS in my mind. The only things in my mind were whatever all the many other ways that stem cells, or any other related and needed body substances, may be collected from women. =============================== Compiler wrote: > About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics > > The thoughts that I offer below came to me > only about a half an hour ago when watching > TV and the subject of ethics, as usual, > concerning the use of stem cells to help > people who are suffering with so many major > diseases, came up here in the United States. > > Even though I leave it to others to maybe > bring the subject up in different public forums, > based on my starting-idea suggestions, > simply to maybe get it all going, by those > who are maybe capable to do so, as well as > commenting on it in these theosophical > forums, as usual, I will not be responding > to anyone, but will simply read all that is > said about it. > > OK, what popped into my mind was that > since Reincarnation is believed in by about > 35 to 40 percent of the American people > (based on figures I saw some time in the past > year or two, but which I can't remember where > or when I read this), which percentage-wise > means, if these figures are more or less > true, that many Christians also believe in > Reincarnation, that it might be worth trying > to get into the national and international media > and political dialogue a conversation about > the following things that also came to my > mind (just some raw thoughts, just some > starting ideas, for everyone to expand on > in the many ways possible): > > If Reincarnation is true, or at least believed > to be true by so many people, this means > that it would be more ethical to use these > stem cells to help so many suffering people > who are already here, than to not use them > because of the thinking that the use of them > are destroying lives not yet born. Why? > Because if Reincarnation is the natural > process, then no thinking human being, > life, or soul is destroyed, but they simply > can't re-enter the scene, if that is in any > way the dynamic, through the specific > very tiny body parts that are stem cells that > may have been associated with their return, > but will simply get naturally drawn, either > immediately, and both still by the laws > of karma, or cause and effect, to another > mother, or will simply have to wait a little > while longer to re-enter this plane. > > So based on these few ideas, and to me at > least, since I'm one of the many who believe > in Reincarnation at this point in my life, it is > highly, I repeat, highly, unethical to allow any > of us who are already on the physical plane > scene to suffer more than necessary by > refusing to allow both stem cell research, > and the use of them, to enter the medical > scene in a 100% way. > > That's it. Good, bad, useful, or otherwise, that's > my little contribution to my fellow theosophists > to consider in all the theosophical forums that > I post in. If any of you see something in this, > as far as it maybe being a major subject to > skillfully get into the public dialogue, if any of > you can, grab the ball and run with it. If it's just > a stupid and unrealistic idea, and not really > worth putting to constructive use in the stem > cell battle, as well as bringing one of the > main theosophical teachings, which is > Reincarnation, into this particular stem cell > discussion that grips the nation, so be it. > I did my best and honestly presented some > thoughts that came to me out of the blue. > > Finally, since this posting is completely > different than my monthly postings, I won't > present any particular article, articles, or > series of articles from my web site in this > top section, but will simply end the way > I do in each of my monthly posting with > everything that is below the double line. > > Yours truly in Universal Brotherhood, > > John DeSantis > ================================== > > Dear newcomers to Theosophy: > > I sincerely do hope that my web site offers > a well-rounded overall view of Theosophy and > the Theosophical Movement. The 3 main links > to everything on it are found below. > > Please know that I'm only the compiler of > all the articles found on my web site; I'm > not a scholar; and also that I personally > do not like to take part in conversations, > even though I do hope that what I present > from time to time will help a little in > the discussions being carried on by others. > So please do not be insulted when I do not > respond if someone addresses me, or addresses > anything that is found in any of the articles > on my web site; I leave that for others to > deal with if they want to -- whether pro, con, > neutral, friendly or unfriendly. > > John DeSantis > (Compiler) > ------- > > You may find a great deal of the Truth that you > are searching for here: > > WisdomWorld.org web site (Main Page): > http://www.wisdomworld.org > > This is the Index page of the "Introductory", > "Setting the Stage" book, which was especially > compiled for newcomers to Theosophy: > http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html > > The page where "Additional" articles are slowly > being added (which contains 18 sections that > can each be clicked on at the top of the page > in order to go directly down to them, as well > as to get the link to any particular section > that you may want to use in a posting on a > discussion board, or in an e-mail to someone): > http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html > > "PUBLIC & PRIVATE ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT FORUM": > This next link is to the most updated version of my > economic proposal to humanity, a practical project > to help our suffering world that I also consider > to be Theosophical. In it you will find a new and > unique, but mostly unknown, economic system > model that might be able to put an end to involuntary > poverty on earth. How? It presents a way to fully > finance everything of importance that is needed > in every nation. Because of this it's well worth > pointing to. Please note that, for strategic > reasons, of wanting it to have the best chance > of being accepted by all peoples worldwide, > no matter what their religious, philosophical, > and scientific beliefs are, I've put it on a > completely different web site; it contains > no mention of, or link to, the Theosophy and > the Theosophical Movement that is presented > on my WisdomWorld.org web site: > http://www.PublicAndPrivateEnterprise.org > > ------- > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Aug 02 17:18:03 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 27991 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2005 00:18:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2005 00:18:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.64) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2005 00:18:01 -0000 Received: from [209.179.147.15] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E06x7-00072S-2t; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 20:17:52 -0400 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:17:31 -0700 Message-ID: <000f01c597c0$c3526880$0f93b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <080220051437.17986.42EF852F0004DEB80000464222007348409F07089C020A05020E040DD30B07900E0B@comcast.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79f0dc7c7e5cbdfee8b90e2781603761d1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.64 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: [theosophia] About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=rFJtQovQeDRa-3OtStJRKOCOm-aVGsQIE1X_KMVH4qZeBA X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Aug 2 2005 RE: Karma AS I understand it, Karma is universal.=20=20 These aphorisms explain the Theosophical teachings thereon. There is nothin= g that escapes the purview of continual Karmic adjustment. Further, there ar= e other planes than merely the physical which are involved in Karma: the emotional, psychic, mental and discriminative/wise. Every atom or cell in the Universe is an independent/dependent Unit, and Karma links it to all th= e rest and to each of us. In this case it may be good to ask (speculate on) what is the motive of eac= h of the parties involved.=20 I don't think apologies or partial explanations and theories open any "escape hatches" for responsibility. It is the INTUITIVE SELF inside of each of us that senses responsibility, and the cooperative interactive unit= y of all.=20 THEOSOPHY covers far more than the mere physical, and the moral philosophy of the present is not attuned to th practical concept of immortal Beings (Monads) undergoing self-imposed, self-improvement course over millions of years -- necessitating reincarnation. In our current life we are apparentl= y walled around by the concepts of materialism, and it is difficult to allow our minds to transcend these using a logic that deems them to be most basic to the totality of life. -------------------------------- (1) There is no Karma unless there is a being to make it or feel its effects. (2) Karma is the adjustment of effects flowing from causes, during which th= e being upon whom and through whom that adjustment is effected experiences pain or pleasure. (3) Karma is an undeviating and unerring tendency in the Universe to restor= e equilibrium, and it operates incessantly. (4) The apparent stoppage of this restoration to equilibrium is due to the necessary adjustment of disturbance at some other spot, place, or focus which is visible only to the Yogi, to the Sage, or the perfect Seer: there is therefore no stoppage, but only a hiding from view. (5) Karma operates on all things and beings from the minutest conceivable atom to Brahma. Proceeding in the three worlds men, gods, and the elemental beings, no spot in the manifested universe is exempt from its sway. (6) Karma is not subject to time, and therefore he who knows what is the ultimate division of time in this Universe knows Karma. (7) For all other men Karma is in its essential nature unknown and unknowable. (8) But its action may be known by calculation from cause to effect; and this calculation is possible because the effect is wrapped up in and is not succedent to the cause. (9) The Karma of this earth is the combination of the acts and thoughts of all beings of every grade which were concerned in the preceding Manvantara or evolutionary stream from which ours flows. (10) And as those beings include Lords of Power and Holy Men, as well as weak and wicked ones, the period of the earth's duration is greater than that of any entity or race upon it. (11) Because the Karma of this earth and its races began in a past too far back for human minds to reach, an inquiry into its beginning is useless and profitless. (12) Karmic causes already set in motion must be allowed to sweep on until exhausted, but this permits no man to refuse to help his fellows and every sentient being. (13) The effects may be counteracted or mitigated by the thoughts and acts of oneself or of another, and then the resulting effects represent the combination and interaction of the whole number of causes involved in producing the effects. (14) In the life of worlds, races, nations, and individuals, Karma cannot act unless there is an appropriate instrument provided for its action. (15) And until such appropriate instrument is found, that Karma related to it remains unexpended. (16) While a man is experiencing Karma in the instrument provided, his othe= r unexpended Karma is not exhausted through other beings or means, but is hel= d reserved for future operation; and lapse of time during which no operation of that Karma is felt causes no deterioration in its force or change in its nature. (17) The appropriateness of an instrument for the operation of Karma consists in the exact connection and relation of the Karma with the body, mind, intellectual and psychical nature acquired for use by the Ego in any life. (18) Every instrument used by any Ego in any life is appropriate to the Karma operating through it. (19) Changes may occur in the instrument during one life so as to make it appropriate for a new class of Karma, and this may take place in two ways: (a) through intensity of thought and the power of a vow, and (b) through natural alterations due to complete exhaustion of old causes. (20) As body and mind and soul have each a power of independent action, any one of these may exhaust, independently of the others, some Karmic causes more remote from or nearer to the time of their inception than those operating through other channels. (21) Karma is both merciful and just. Mercy and Justice are only opposite poles of a single whole; and Mercy without Justice is not possible in the operations of Karma. That which man calls Mercy and Justice is defective, errant, and impure. (22) Karma may be of three sorts: (a) presently operative in this life through the appropriate instruments; (b) that which is being made or stored up to be exhausted in the future; Karma held over from past life or lives and not operating yet because inhibited by inappropriateness of the instrument in use by the Ego, or by the force of Karma now operating. (23) Three fields of operation are used in each being by Karma: (a) the bod= y and the circumstances; (b) the mind and intellect; the psychic and astral planes. (24) Held-over Karma or present Karma may each, or both at once, operate in all of the three fields of Karmic operation at once, or in either of those fields a different class of Karma from that using the others may operate at the same time. (25) Birth into any sort of body and to obtain the fruits of any sort of Karma is due to the preponderance of the line of Karmic tendency. (26) The sway of Karmic tendency will influence the incarnation of an Ego, or any family of Egos, for three lives at least, when measures of repression, elimination, or counteraction are not adopted. (27) Measures taken by an Ego to repress tendency, eliminate defects, and t= o counteract by setting up different causes, will alter the sway of Karmic tendency and shorten its influence in accordance with the strength or weakness of the efforts expended in carrying out the measures adopted. (28) No man but a sage or true seer can judge another's Karma. Hence while each receives his deserts, appearances may deceive, and birth into Poverty or heavy trial may not be punishment for bad Karma, for Egos continually incarnate into poor surroundings where they experience difficulties and trials which are for the discipline of the Ego and result in strength, fortitude, and sympathy. ..... (Path, March, 1893 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Best wishes,=20 Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: david-blankenship Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:38 AM To:=20 Subject: About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics It is difficult to see where karma would apply. The bill in the Hous= e and Senate concerns non-viable eggs that would be destroyed anyway. There is a concern that fertility clinics would make extra eggs for the harvestin= g of stems cells, but that objection could be addressed in the bill. Some people have an objection to any use of these cells, but it is difficult to see since the law allows the use of organ donations of brain dead people an= d same reasoning would seem to apply. Perhaps some one could explain it to the group. David B. -------------- Original message --------------=20 Aug 1 2005=20 =20 Dear Jerry:=20 =20 As far as common sense says it is reasonable to use without taking undue=20 advantage of that which current technology provides. And of course Karma i= s attached to that decision.=20 =20 The real question is: Why do we stay alive? What are we contributing=20 positively to the world and the rest of humanity? I agree with the saying= =20 attributed to Jesus.=20 =20 If we live only for ourselves, or out of fear of death and the "great=20 unknown," then the resulting Karma is different.=20 =20 I cannot find for myself and ability to think, any good reason to deny the= =20 continuity of the Monad (myself and others).=20 =20 As to the view that reality is the very narrow transaction of an evanescen= t and fleeting present I cannot see that it is entirely logical.=20 =20 I find HPB saying in TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE , p. 30 f the U=20 L T Edn.: " Maya is the perceptive faculty of every Ego which considers=20 itself a Unit separate from, and independent of the ONE infinite and eternal=20 SAT, or "be-ness."=20 =20 What then is the Ego ?=20 =20 Again H P B writes: ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISHISTADVAITA --HPB Articles=20 III, p. 265:=20 =20 "whether it be orthodox Adwaita or not, I maintain as an occultist, on the= =20 authority of the Secret Doctrine, that though merged entirely into=20 Parabrahm, man's spirit while not individual per se, yet preserves its=20 distinct individuality in Paranirvana, owing to the accumulation in it of= =20 the aggregates, or skandhas that have survived after each death, from the= =20 highest faculties of the Manas.=20 =20 The most spiritual--i.e., the highest and divinest aspirations of every=20 personality follow Buddhi and the Seventh Principle into Devachan (Swarga)= =20 after the death of each personality along the line of rebirths, and become= =20 part and parcel of the Monad. The personality fades out, disappearing before=20 the occurrence of the evolution of the new personality (rebirth) out of=20 Devachan: but the individuality of the spirit-soul [dear, dear, what can b= e made out of this English!] is preserved to the end of the great cycle=20 (Maha-Manwantara) when each Ego enters Paranirvana, or is merged in=20 Parabrahm.=20 =20 To our talpatic, or mole-like, comprehension the human spirit is then lost= =20 in the One Spirit, as the drop of water thrown into the sea can no longer be=20 traced out and recovered. But de facto it is not so in the world of=20 immaterial thought.=20 This latter stands in relation to the human dynamic thought, as, say, the= =20 visual power through the strongest conceivable microscope would to the sight=20 of a half-blind man: and yet even this is a most insufficient simile--the= =20 difference is "inexpressible in terms of foot-pounds."=20 =20 That such Parabrahmic and Paranirvanic "spirits," or units, have and must= =20 preserve their divine (not human) individualities, is shown in the fact=20 that, however long the "night of Brahma" or even the Universal Pralaya (no= t the local Pralaya affecting some one group of worlds) yet, when it ends, the=20 same individual Divine Monad resumes its majestic path of evolution, thoug= h on a higher, hundredfold perfected and more pure chain of earths than=20 before, and brings with it all the essence of compound spiritualities from= =20 its previous countless rebirths.=20 =20 Spiral evolution, it must be remembered, is dual, and the path of=20 spirituality turns, corkscrew-like, within and around physical,=20 semi-physical, and supra-physical evolution. But I am being tempted into=20 details which had best be left for the full consideration which their=20 importance merits to my forthcoming work, the Secret Doctrine. "=20 =20 H. P. BLAVATSKY=20 Theosophist, January, 1886-=20 --------------------------------------------------------=20 =20 I recognize I am quoting doctrine, and the doctrine you have adopted (from= =20 one of the Buddhistic Schools) uses other terms and concepts of expressing= =20 them. But to me, while maya describes the eternal shifting of FORMS=20 (composed of Monads of lesser experience) under the laws of Karma, this does=20 not dispel or obviate the ETERNAL MONAD that is my egoic base (nor that of= =20 any other =A1=B0Eternal Pilgrim.=A1=B1 )=20 =20 HPB continues on p. 30 of TRANSACTIONS:=20 =20 "Maya, illusion or ignorance =A1=ADawakens Nidanas; and the cause or cause= s=20 having been produced, the effects follow according to Karmic law. Having=20 then produced this cause, the whole discord of life follows immediately as= =20 an effect; in reality it is the endeavour of nature to restore harmony and= =20 maintain equilibrium." As to "replaceable parts: I would say that in view of ever acting maya and= =20 due to the eternal exchange of atoms and molecules, such "parts" are son=20 altered into compatible bases for sustaining cooperative life in our gross= =20 physical bodies.=20 =20 You speak of fear. True, the personality that has not reconciled the=20 eternal puzzle of its existence and relation with the Higher Self and the= =20 Ego in man, has not logically provided itself with a reasonable basis for= =20 understanding its continuity -- and it does have a continuity -- call it a= =20 memory if you will, but he "good" that a man does ever remains as evidence= =20 that he lived then!, and lives now.=20 =20 In The KEY TO THEOSOPHY, HPB writes:=20 =20 "...memory is one thing and mind or thought is another; one is a recording= =20 machine, a register which very easily gets out of order; the other=20 (thoughts) are eternal and imperishable. Would you refuse to believe in th= e existence of certain things or men only because your physical eyes have no= t seen them? Would not the collective testimony of past generations who have= =20 seen him be a sufficient guarantee that Julius Caesar once lived? Why should=20 not the same testimony of the psychic senses of the masses be taken into=20 consideration?=20 =20 ENQUIRER. But don't you think that these are too fine distinctions to be=20 accepted by the majority of mortals?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Say rather by the majority of materialists. And to them we say,=20 behold: even in the short span of ordinary existence, memory is too weak t= o register all the events of a lifetime. How frequently do even most important=20 events lie dormant in our memory until awakened by some association of=20 ideas, or aroused to function and activity by some other link. This is=20 especially the case with people of advanced age, who are always found=20 suffering from feebleness of recollection. When, therefore, we remember that=20 which we know about the physical and the spiritual principles in man, it is= =20 not the fact that our memory has failed to record our precedent life and=20 lives that ought to surprise us, but the contrary, were it to happen.=20 =20 =20 WHY DO WE NOT REMEMBER OUR PAST LIVES?=20 =20 ENQUIRER. You have given me a bird's eye view of the seven principles; now= =20 how do they account for our complete loss of any recollection of having=20 lived before?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Very easily. Since those "principles" which we call physical,= =20 and none of which is denied by science, though it calls them by other names,=20 are disintegrated after death with their constituent elements, memory=20 along with its brain, this vanished memory of a vanished personality, can= =20 neither remember nor record anything in the subsequent reincarnation of th= e EGO.=20 =20 Reincarnation means that this Ego will be furnished with a new body, a new= =20 brain, and a new memory. Therefore it would be as absurd to expect this=20 memory to remember that which it has never recorded as it would be idle to= =20 examine under a microscope a shirt never worn by a murderer, and seek on i= t for the stains of blood which are to be found only on the clothes he wore.= =20 It is not the clean shirt that we have to question, but the clothes worn=20 during the perpetration of the crime; and if these are burnt and destroyed= , how can you get at them?=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Aye! how can you get at the certainty that the crime was ever=20 committed at all, or that the "man in the clean shirt" ever lived before?= =20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Not by physical processes, most assuredly; nor by relying on= =20 the testimony of that which exists no longer. But there is such a thing as= =20 circumstantial evidence, since our wise laws accept it, more, perhaps, eve= n than they should. To get convinced of the fact of re-incarnation and past= =20 lives, one must put oneself in rapport with one's real permanent Ego, not= =20 one's evanescent memory. ...=20 =20 ENQUIRER. But how can people believe in that which they do not know, nor=20 have ever seen, far less put themselves in rapport with it?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. If people, and the most learned, will believe in the Gravity,= =20 Ether, Force, and what not of Science, abstractions "and working hypotheses,=20 " which they have neither seen, touched, smelt, heard, nor tasted=A8D why= =20 should not other people believe, on the same principle, in one's permanent= =20 Ego, a far more logical and important "working hypothesis" than any other?= =20 =20 ENQUIRER. What is, finally, this mysterious eternal principle? Can you=20 explain its nature so as to make it comprehensible to all?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. The EGO which re-incarnates, the individual and immortal not= =20 Personal =A8D "I"; the vehicle, in short, of the Atma-Buddhic MONAD, that which=20 is rewarded in Devachan and punished on earth, and that, finally, to which= =20 the reflection only of the Skandhas, or attributes, of every incarnation=20 attaches itself. [There are five Skandhas or attributes in the Buddhist=20 teachings: "Rupa (form or body), material qualities; Vedana, sensation;=20 Sanna, abstract ideas; Samkhara, tendencies of mind; Vinnana, mental powers.=20 Of these we are formed; by them we are conscious of existence; and through= =20 them communicate with the world about us."]=20 =20 ENQUIRER. What do you mean by Skandhas?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Just what I said: "attributes," among which is memory, all of= =20 which perish like a flower, leaving behind them only a feeble perfume. Her= e is another paragraph from H. S. Olcott's "Buddhist Catechism"=A8o which be= ars directly upon the subject. It deals with the question as follows:=A8D=20 =20 "The aged man remembers the incidents of his youth, despite his being=20 physically and mentally changed. Why, then, is not the recollection of pas= t lives brought over by us from our last birth into the present birth? Because=20 memory is included within the Skandhas, and the Skandhas having changed with the new existence, a memory, the record of that particular existence, develops. Yet the record or reflection of all the past lives must survive,= =20 for when Prince Siddhartha became Buddha, the full sequence of His previou= s births were seen by Him. . . . and any one who attains to the state of Jhana=20 can thus retrospectively trace the line of his lives."=20 =20 This proves to you that while the undying qualities of the personality=A8D= =20 such as love, goodness, charity, etc.=A8D attach themselves to the immorta= l=20 Ego, photographing on it, so to speak, a permanent image of the divine=20 aspect of the man who was, his material Skandhas (those which generate the= =20 most marked Karmic effects) are as evanescent as a flash of lightning, and= =20 cannot impress the new brain of the new personality; yet their failing to do=20 so impairs in no way the identity of the re-incarnating Ego.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Do you mean to infer that that which survives is only the=20 Soul-memory, as you call it, that Soul or Ego being one and the same, whil= e nothing of the personality remains?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Not quite; something of each personality, unless the latter was=20 an absolute materialist with not even a chink in his nature for a spiritua= l ray to pass through, must survive, as it leaves its eternal impress on the= =20 incarnating permanent Self or Spiritual Ego. [ Or the Spiritual, in=20 contradistinction to the personal Self. The student must not confuse this= =20 Spiritual Ego with the "HIGHER SELF" which is Atma, the God within us, and= =20 inseparable from the Universal Spirit.] ...=20 =20 CUT From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Aug 03 03:17:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 34009 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2005 10:17:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2005 10:17:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.64) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2005 10:17:21 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.113] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E0GJ0-0000ks-1a; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 06:17:16 -0400 To: "AAA-Dal" Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:16:22 -0700 Message-ID: <000401c59814$78b828b0$71deb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <20050802.115523.1404.7.ultinla@juno.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec797c7dca0e01c863e01573521b1486e652350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.64 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: The real seership MEDITATION X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=xPF8TzvW1IQutbSHO8PlInxUUITue3CVe2EdHmOlRtjVoQ X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aug 3 2005 =20 Dear Friends: =20 RE: The real seership MEDITATION =20 =20 This may be of some help? =20 =20 As to Meditation:=20=20 =20 Some thoughts and ideas on trying to learn how to meditate =20 ------------------------------ =20 WHY IS LITTLE KNOWN ABOUT MEDITATION ? =20 As in most things, concerning which there seems to be little general knowledge, we ought to seek for the definitions that are around us. Theosophy has a specific definition, as the meditation technique is one that a student uses to learn about himself and nature. =20 =20 MEDITATION IS A DAILY AND LIFE-LONG EFFORT. =20 The first consideration to employ is to consider the indwelling Monad [Buddhi-Manas] is an immortal SPIRITUAL entity living at present in a vesture of material flesh, blood and skin. The vesture is continually changing, but the interior SPIRIT/SOUL is permanent and immovable. It is th= e PERCEIVER. =20 Second It [the Monad] is an integral part of the eternal Universe. Its "birth" and its "death" coincides with the birth and death of the Universe. As such, it never "dies." =20 Third Every capacity and power inherent in the UNIVERSE resides in potenc= y within each Monad. But it needs to be educed and brought forward for use b= y individual self-effort and assiduous practice. The Mind embodied in man's form is the active agent for this transformation.=20 =20 Four These potencies and power that are universal, are invariably cooperative and interactive as VIRTUES. [Virtues may be designated as: charity, compassion, generosity, and a refusal to subjugate anyone for any reason, unrevengefulness, sincerity, honesty, desirelessness, and a total lack of lust, anger, desire for fame, or to acquire others' possessions.] =20 Five these virtues are to be understood and made the basis of our incarnated life. This includes our thoughts and desires. =20 Six Vice and evil are distortions of the TRUE and the SPIRITUAL. An exaggerated virtue becomes a vice. The secret lies in tolerance, self discipline and moderation. The ideal is to be able to act for others' sake= , not selfishly in any way. =20 Seven the practical Theosophist is a "magician" who has grasped every aspect of the operation of the Universe and understood the relation between each Monad and all the rest, as well as of the WHOLE. This can be accurately expressed as UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD.=20 =20 Theosophy considers every human being is a Soul (mind), and is an "Eternal Pilgrim." The mind principle (called Manas) is that which stores the thoughts of all our lives. The total quantity of life-thoughts makes the stream of our life's meditation -- or that upon which our heart is set. We do not often have this as a precise concept, but it can be discovered. It is not outside of us, but an interior attitude.=20=20 =20 Our mind links our embodied consciousness (mind) to the inner=20 Spiritual Root of our nature. In turn, this places us in a position=20 that we can choose to activate with the Spiritual Principle of the=20 Universe a portion of which ( a "ray," or, "spark") is in us and=20 forms the root-base of our existence and gives us a sense of=20 permanence and of purpose in our existence. This has no physical locus in the body. So postures, breathing and a knowledge of the psychic and physiological "chakras" may be quite unnecessary. =20 With each one of us is associated a measure of Karma -- the fruit of our choices and motives for decisions made in earlier lives. This manifests in our life as character and tendency, as interest and talent or their lack. We also ought to include in this our interest in "meditation." Why do we seek to understand and use it? We tend to place all these things together and call it "our nature." But, we can also see that "our nature" reaches out to other "natures" and we meet with such friends or enemies in this life that we may have established in earlier ones. One cannot understand or practice meditation without this as a consideration that interlinks us all. =20 Mme. Blavatsky says in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY (p. 10): =20 "Meditation ..."is silent and unuttered prayer, or, as Plato expressed it, "the ardent turning of the soul towards the divine." This divine is the Higher Self (Atma/Buddhi) or the divine Spirit-Wisdom within each of us. =20 "Occultism requires "physical, mental, moral and spiritual" development to run on parallel lines...the prime factor in the guidance of thought is the Will...The first requisite for it is thorough purity of heart...A cultivation of the feeling of unselfish philanthropy is the path that has to be traversed for that purpose. For it is that alone which will lead to Universal Love, the realization of which constitutes the progress towards deliverance from the chains forged by Maya around the Ego...An Adept is intensely active and thus able to control the elemental forces, " wrote Damodar K. Mavlankar in an article titled: CONTEMPLATION=20=20 ["THEOSOPHIST Magazine," Vol. 5, p. 112..., Feb. 1884.] =20 "Fearlessness, sincerity, assiduity in devotion, generosity, self-restraint= , piety, and alms-givings, study, mortification, and rectitude; harmlessness, veracity, and freedom from anger, resignation, equanimity, and not speaking of the faults of others, universal compassion, modesty, and mildness; patience, power, fortitude, and purity, discretion, dignity, unrevengefulness, and freedom from conceit=AF these are the marks of him wh= ose virtues are of a godlike character, O son of Bharata." Thus spoke Sri Krishna to his disciple Arjuna on the "field of battle," which is the field of duty and of responsibility that lies within and around us all.=20=20=20 =20 There are two possible objectives to Meditation. =20 One, [Hatha Yoga] is directed at enhancing the Personality in its selfish acquisition of "powers." it is selfish, and it isolates. It concentrates one's effort on personal results -- if persisted in, it will produce some limited results and, at death, it leaves nothing for Devachanic meditation. Anything that "isolates" is selfish and harmful to the lower Self, and distances it/us from that permanent Higher Self, which is the true immortal aspirant=20 and immortal devotee in each one of us. =20 The other [Raja Yoga] is that which is aimed at discovering and understanding the Inner ATMA-BUDDHI by the Buddhi-Manas, or,=20 The HIGHER SELF [ATMA] and the potential that it can make available for practical, universal and righteous action.=20=20 =20 This kind of meditation leads to compassion and a real effective care for others. It views us as one among many. It also considers that as an "immortal" Mind/Soul we have innately to ourselves a mission that needs the joint cooperative assistance of others to achieve. We can only reach "Perfection," or the "Goal" envisaged, by joint work. The whole of humanity, and all Nature is engaged in this. =20=20 "A chela's meditation should constitute the "reasoning from the known to th= e unknown...Occultism does not depend upon one method, but employs both the deductive and the inductive. The student must first learn the general axioms...'To believe without knowing is weakness; to believe because one knows, is power.' " D. K. Mavlankar [idem.]. =20 =20 HOW CAN MEDITATION BE USED AND DEVELOPED ? =20 In considering the development of the meditative faculty we need first to learn and then seek those applications which can be made compassionate generously and practically. Our perception grows deeper and more universal as we are able to widen our effectiveness in helping others to grow themselves. "For others' sake ... " is a good phrase always to keep in mind.=20=20 =20 We grow best when we give away. But we have to give away with discrimination, and that takes sound preliminary learning. There is the accumulation of facts, then their arrangement in logical relationships, and, finally, the construction in our own minds of the structure of a universal verity to which we will always be able to refer as a basis for understanding what appears to be "new" concepts. Who does this? It is the Real Self, the Higher=20 Mind when it works in and through the Lower (embodied) Mind=20 that does this with care and deliberation. =20 =20 PRACTICE AND MEANING OF MEDITATION. =20 As to the meaning and practice of meditation: It should never be conspicuous, or spoken about. And that is because it is the normal extension of one's study of universal principles. Everyone knows about study. Everyone has devoted a long time to actual study and meditation in school life. To study, we place "facts" (or data) in our minds -- as "memory." To meditate one selects from among our memories a group or an area of study. The memories are evoked and then compared with such basic facts as we are already sure of. Therefore, every time that one studied a subject, or wrote an article, or an important letter, or prepared for a talk the meditative aspect of study was invoked. =20 Even when one is not studying, but only doing one's work, and happen to think about some subject that is kept "in the back of the mind," it is evidence of meditation being pursuing as an ongoing process. If one reflects on this then the process was: selection, gathering information, adjusting data so that a cohesive picture grew, identifying areas that were uncertain, and finally looking for analogous or similar conditions. Anything new has to be adjusted so that it is seen to agree with basic information already proved to ones' self. If in the course of meditation one is confronted with some fact that is not congruent with already proven verities, this necessitates a most careful review of all our earlier built conclusions. If we should arbitrarily accept anything without this checking and verifying process we might be increasing an area of error in our thinking. =20 =20 THE UNIVERSE IS COHESIVE AND COOPERATIVE. =20 Theosophy shows how the whole Universe is integrated and has a profound cohesive and logical meaning. Everything fits together, and invites our scrutiny and testing. There are no secrets as such, nor any dogmas or beliefs that we should adopt without understanding. Nothing will ever be expected of us which we cannot understand and would do willingly once we are sure of the intention, methods and results. =20 So our lives are part of the Universal Life, and as we seek to know it better, we delve deeper into our own being, trying to find out what we are and what are the powers of our mind and our own Spiritual Self, that we can use in the "here and now.". =20 =20 VIRTUES: BROTHERHOOD, COMPASSION, ALTRUISM. =20 We should discover that this leads to friendliness, brotherhood, compassion and altruism. And, those should be practiced with discrimination and care for others all the time. The interior "WE" is really the HIGHER SELF. It is the Lower self, the Lower mind and the Personality (which has to recognized the existence of the HIGHER SELF), that is the way in which we can invoke it, so the HIGHER SELF may "come through" with greater ease. =20 CONSCIOUSNESS is ONE. It is the one attribute of the Higher Self. It, alone is able to pierce up and down the 7 planes of being, and it retains a clear memory of experiences on each plane. Our memories on this plane are fragmentary, until by effort we learn to unify them. The practice of "attention" does this, but, it has to be attentive to grasping the operations of the One Law and impersonal in our application of that to our personal selves. =20 =20 MEDITATION and THE MONAD (Atma-Buddhi-Manas) =20 It is the process of digesting, assimilation and thinking about the matter. By this method, one is inviting the discriminating and Wise principle -- Buddhi -- to work actively as the "intuition," and for insights to appear to help. They come from within, they are the "points of light" that come from the Higher Self working through the lower Self (which has to make itself "porous" to them) and then our lives become illumined by the TRUE, and become friendly to all others, become just and universal. =20 MEDITATION is serious and concentrated thought. It is not a ritual, or a discipline that involves anything of the physical or the psychic. It should not be advertised or made obvious to others, nor should it make personal life more difficult.=20=20 =20 It is in essence a search for TRUTH. It is a quiet, unobtrusive mind exercise. It is something that requires that we be fully awake and totally concentrated in the waking state -- no "blanking of the mind", and it is to be entirely self-controlled and self-generated. It is not an exercise that can be practised with others, even when there are silent moments, for the reason that it is not passivity, but a time of most active mental effort. =20 We ought to draw no attention to our practice and if we should be interrupted, accept it as a kind of test of our equanimity, and let there be no apparent reaction. We are immortal beings and have all the time we need for our future advance -- so long as we are able to include everyone else in our progress. That is the real key to advance - the sharing of ourselves. We should always make time to assist. =20 It does not involve trying to get at the meaning of special words and especially without a truly correct understanding of what they mean and are (potentially) able to do -- whether they be pronounced correctly or not. That is all physical, external and fruitless. The real power resides in the application of the motive as a carefully controlled and always beneficent creative power. Among those who aspire to assist Nature, this is never personal, and is always used (only if necessary) in a harmless, wise and compassionate way with a Mind that is determined to be a servant, and an assistant to all Nature and to the least of beings which approaches us under Karma. We should consider all those as being, themselves, divine MONADS, and give each of=20 them the respect and attention (as our brothers) that they claim=20 or, that we come aware that they need. =20 Real meditation is a mental determination to live a totally moral and ethical life, all the time; and to the extent that one is able to do that. It is nothing extraordinary except for this one orientation that has to come from WITHIN. We have to assure ourselves first of all that our learning is not self-directed at all, but that our motive is "to better help and teach others." =20 =20 THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE -- INTUITION. =20 The VOICE OF THE SILENCE and its statements ought to be considered as one of the primary practical sources of inspiration for true Meditation. We ought, by reading a little every day, to become familiar with it and the explanations contained in the footnotes there. =20 As said before, it is most important to remember that we are the HIGHER SELF in our inner-most core (and everyone else is so also). Every being exists because of the essential and ETERNAL MONAD that it is. That Monad is SPIRIT and MATTER conjoined, or ATMA/BUDDHI -- and that is interior to all without any exception. It is the ETERNAL PILGRIM and it is the "Real You." =20 Every human being (and every other type of being is also at root a Monad). In the past, our MONAD once occupied a position that is comparable to that which another Monad which is apparently=20 in a lower position, now seems to occupy. We only appear to be=20 separated at present, because we have, each of us, our own individual path. In the end (at the end of the Manvantara) all those 'Paths' converge. So, from that point of view, it is not useful to seek "guidance," or any "leader" who will prescribe some ritual or formula. Books will not be able to tell anyone what to do, but they can offer advice. It is too easy to be misled. The TRUE Teacher is the Higher Self within. =20 We must remember that the Monad is an immortal. It cannot be "erased" as Individuality at the end of a Manvantara, for the economy of Nature demands that all those INDIVIDUALITIES (experienced MONADS) be employed again, in continuation of their present "advance" at an appropriate place in a new Manvantara which will be the Karmic child of the present one. (see HPB ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISHISTADWAITA, HPB Articles, Vol. III, p. 265, ULT Edition, "Theosophist," Jan. 1886.) =20 Everyone has been at this business of self-improvement for aeons -- and it does not begin for the first time in this life. In this life we are all renewing that age-old study that was ours in the past. If we could recover the "memory of past lives" the whole process of advancing would be much easier. If we are now considering the study of Theosophy, it is that which, if and when applied, will make our embodied minds (the Lower Self) clearer and porous, so that the Higher Memories may be accessed. =20 =20 PATANJALI's YOGA-SUTRAS -- A BASIS FOR MEDITATION. =20 PATANJALI's YOGA SUTRAS translated by W. Q. Judge, is most valuable in a study of the nature and procedures of meditation -- especially the first 3 books. It gives a clue as to what true meditation is. It is the attempt of the embodied mind (the Lower Manas) to reach up to and understand the work of the Higher Manas within. And from there to participate in the work of the HIGHER SELF. It deals with the concept that we live in a moral Universe=20 where every feeling, thought or deed carries a Karmic consequence. =20 As a beginning, one might at first study, frame questions, then begin to assemble all that one has learned or has available on a selected subject. This assembling is a primary need, gives a needed=20 review of those subjects and ideas -- then one ought to put them all together and see if one can secure a glimpse of the inner reason and meaning for their being there [ to do this, one ought to ask the all-important question: WHY ? -- An answer takes the practitioner to basic principles and enables a clear perception of their inter-relation with others and thus to the CAUSES ] -- and that is MEDITATION. =20 =20 Offered in the hope that this might help. =20 Best wishes, =20 Dallas =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: Jerome=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 11:55 AM To:=20 Subject: Re: The real seership =20 Our new people out here are clamoring for "how to" books on meditation, so the A.T. has had several articles on the subject and has one comingup --- its an article about the rccent NPR program on meditation. =20 =20 jerome =20 =20 On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 13:47:02 -0400 Odin writes: =20 This seems a subject generally ignored in conservative Theosophical circles. As indicated below in her article "SPIRITUAL PROGRESS,"=20 HPB [HPB Articles II 112 - 114] declares a practical value inherent in such study and applications that she recommends. Shouldn't such be occasionally reinforced among students who desire to add practical work to their metaphysics? =20 =20 " The Theosophical Society does indeed desire to promote the spiritual growth of every individual who comes within its influence, but its methods are those of the ancient Rishis, its tenets those of the oldest Esotericism; it is no dispenser of patent nostrums composed=20 of violent remedies which no honest healer would dare to use. =20 In this connection we would warn all our members, and others who are seeking spiritual knowledge, to beware of persons offering to teach them easy methods of acquiring psychic gifts; such gifts (laukika)=20 are indeed comparatively easy of acquirement by artificial means, but=20 fade out as soon as the nerve-stimulus exhausts itself. =20 The real seership and adeptship which is accompanied by true psychic development (lokothra), once reached, is never lost. =20 It appears that various societies have sprung into existence since the foundation of the Theosophical Society, profiting by the interest the latter has awakened in matters of psychic research, and endeavouring to gain members by promising them easy acquirement of psychic=20 powers. =20 In India we have long been familiar with the existence of hosts of sham ascetics of all descriptions, and we fear that there is fresh danger in this direction, here, as well as in Europe and America. We only hope that none of our members, dazzled by brilliant promises, will allow themselves to be taken in by self-deluded dreamers, or,=20 it may be, wilful deceivers. =20 It is perfectly true that some Theosophists have been (through nobody's fault but their own) greatly disappointed because we have offered them no short cut to Yoga Vidya, and there are others who=20 wish for practical work. And, significantly enough, those who have done least for the Society are loudest in fault-finding. Now, why do not these persons and all our members who are able to do so, take up the serious study of mesmerism? =20 Mesmerism has been called the Key to the Occult Sciences, and it has this advantage that it offers peculiar opportunities for doing good to mankind. If in each of our branches we were able to establish a homeopathic dispensary with the addition of mesmeric healing, such=20 as has already been done with great success in Bombay, we might contribute towards putting the science of medicine in this country=20 on a sounder basis, and be the means of incalculable benefit to the people at large. =20 There are others of our branches, besides the one at Bombay, that=20 have done good work in this direction, but there is room for infinitely more to be done than has yet been attempted. And the same is the=20 case in the various other departments of the Society's work. It would be= =20 a good thing if the members of each branch would put their heads together and seriously consult as to what tangible steps they can=20 take to further the declared objects of the Society. In too many cases=20 the members of the Theosophical Society content themselves with a=20 somewhat superficial study of its books, without making any real contribution to its active work. =20 If the Society is to be a power for good in this and other lands, it can only bring about this result by the active co-operation of every one of its members, and we would earnestly appeal to each of them to consider carefully what possibilities of work are within his power, and then to earnestly set about carrying them into effect. =20 Right thought is a good thing, but thought alone does not count for much unless it is translated into action. There is not a single=20 member in the Society who is not able to do something to aid the cause of truth and universal brotherhood; it only depends on his own will, to make that something an accomplished fact. =20 Above all we would reiterate the fact, that the Society is no nursery for incipient adepts; teachers cannot be provided to go round and=20 give instruction to various branches on the different subjects which come within the Society's work of investigation; the branches must study for themselves; books are to be had, and the knowledge there put=20 forth must be practically applied by the various members thus will be developed self-reliance, and reasoning powers. =20 We urge this strongly; for appeals have reached us that any lecturer sent to branches must be practically versed in experimental=20 psychology and clairvoyance (i.e., looking into magic mirrors and reading the future, etc., etc.). Now we consider that such experiments should originate amongst members themselves to be of any value in the development of the individual or to enable him to make progress in=20 his "uphill" path, and therefore earnestly recommend our members to try for themselves." "SPIRITUAL PROGRESS," -- HPB=20=20 [HPB Articles II 112 - 114] =20 ---------- =20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ringding@online.de Wed Aug 03 03:51:37 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 30460 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2005 10:51:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2005 10:51:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.186) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2005 10:51:36 -0000 Received: from p54BF9938.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.153.56] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0ML29c-1E0Gq733Dl-0000ez; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:51:11 +0200 Message-ID: <006001c59819$762640f0$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: References: <000401c595ca$aede8c00$248cb3d1@DALLAS> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:52:08 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.186 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Pluto X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=vqYqz93qzoBzWyLJtf6wTx5MEGZN2fYY0vQQ4rt5HcEoXTCI82TPR4aM5A X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer it's in B:CW X:340f. ----- Original Message ----- From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" To: "AA-BNStudy" Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:22 PM Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: Pluto July 1 2005 Kathy For the moment I can't find it either. I recall HPB writing of an infra Mercurial planet occasionally seen and tentatively named VULCAN. I'll look further and let you know. FOUND See TRANSACTIONS of the BLAVATSKY LODGE (p. 48 in U L T Edn) [Blavatsky: COLLECTED WORKS -- Vol. 10, before p 246 -- see answer to 3rd question in SECTION IV Stanza 1] She mentions another planet with a retrograde motion. ? I listen in the past 3 days to a fresh discovery of an ultra-Plutonian planet ? being discovered. Best wishes, Dallas ============================== -----Original Message----- From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cass Silva Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 7:41 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Pluto Dallas, Didn't HPB say something about an as yet undiscovered planet? I have searched for the quote but cannot find it. Cass Puny Pluto gets big brother It's a planet! By Jeremy Manier Tribune staff reporter Published July 30, 2005 Larger than Pluto and far beyond its orbit, shining so brightly an amateur stargazer could have spotted it years ago, there is a 10th planet, astronomers announced late Friday. Calling the still-unnamed world a planet likely will stir intense debate among some astronomers who argue that even tiny Pluto would not be called a planet were it discovered today. But if Pluto counts as a planet with a width of about 1,400 miles, the new world--which may be up to twice as big--also belongs on the list, said Mike Brown, leader of the team that made the discovery. "Get your pens; start rewriting the textbooks today," said Brown, a professor of planetary science at the California Institute of Technology who has hunted for such an object for more than five years. For now the would-be planet goes by the unwieldy designation of 2003UB313. Brown said his team has proposed a more melodious name to the Paris-based International Astronomical Union and is waiting for approval before making it public. The planet is now 9 billion miles from the sun--more than twice as distant as Pluto at its farthest point--and takes 560 years to make one orbit. It would be the first planet discovered in our solar system since astronomer Clyde Tombaugh found Pluto in 1930. Larry Lebofsky, a senior research scientist at the University of Arizona's Lunar and Planetary Laboratory who was not involved in the finding, agreed with Brown that the object deserves planetary status. "I like the idea that somewhere along the line humans defined Pluto as the limit of what we call a planet," Lebofsky said. "If you find something larger, there's no reason why that shouldn't count too." Brown made a rushed announcement late Friday at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California, after his team realized someone had hacked into their Web site and accessed the crucial data, apparently with the goal of making it public. It was "someone with more cleverness than scruples," Brown said. "It's not the way we'd prefer to do it, but that's the way it happened." Because the team had not finished analyzing the planet, they still do not know precisely how large it is. Astronomers gauge the size of such distant objects by measuring their brightness; if a distant object is still very bright, it must also be large. Brown said 2003UB313 is so bright and so far away that even if its surface were extremely reflective, the world would have to be larger than Pluto. At most, it may be twice Pluto's size. "We expect it's about 1 1/2 times larger," Brown said. Brown's team had known about the object since Jan. 8, when they detected it using the relatively small 48-inch Samuel Oschin Telescope at Mt. Palomar in California. The telescope uses a 180-megapixel digital camera with the widest field of view of any astronomical camera, which lets the team survey huge swaths of sky at once. Like Pluto, the new object orbits the sun at a strange angle--in the case of the new world, about 44 degrees off the plane where the other planets move. It also follows a highly irregular orbit, swinging in almost to the circuit of Neptune at its closest point. Brown said an amateur could see the object with a 14-inch telescope; in North America it is now visible almost directly overhead at dawn. The team had used its telescope for years to search for objects in the Kuiper Belt, a broad disk of icy bodies in the expanses of space beyond Pluto. Last year Brown's group found Sedna, an object about three-fourths the size of Pluto and whose irregular orbit extends far beyond that of 2003UB313. On Thursday, astronomers in Spain announced the discovery of another large Kuiper Belt object, which Brown's group had tracked as well. Brown said Friday that his team's observations indicate that world is about the same size as Sedna The presence of so many Pluto-like worlds at the outer expanses of the solar system has prompted some astronomers to argue that Pluto--less than half the size of the next smallest planet, Mercury--is an unremarkable hunk of ice that doesn't belong with either the rocky planets close to the sun or the gas giants beyond. In 2000 the American Museum of Natural History demoted Pluto by leaving it out of a display of the planets, though other museums have not taken such drastic steps. The International Astronomical Union still classifies Pluto as a planet. Brown confessed he used to be among those who thought Pluto never deserved planetary clout. But he said he has come to believe that on this question, what ordinary people think is as important as the technical judgment of astronomers. "People love Pluto," Brown said. "Calling Pluto not a planet is never going to be a popular decision. It seems reasonable if that Pluto is a planet and you've got something bigger and farther, you'd better call that a planet too." By that standard, the new world's acceptance as a planet may hinge on whether the public warms up to it. "Maybe it depends on what name they came up with," Lebofsky said. ---------- jmanier@tribune.com --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Aug 03 16:38:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33787 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2005 23:38:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2005 23:38:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2005 23:38:19 -0000 Received: from [209.179.148.172] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E0SoN-0003JU-Et; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:38:18 -0400 To: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:38:05 -0700 Message-ID: <001401c59884$67becdf0$ac94b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <000d01c59880$b470e2e0$ac94b3d1@DALLAS> X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7946a378058f91aa874bd42ceb63e8b8eb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.61 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: MEDITATION X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=9fvtUzx80sEGq2dmY6Mpf22UYmyz5T7x14jrNSTAFZk96Q X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Aug 3 2005 =A0 =A0 Dear Friends: =A0 =A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 RE: The real seership=A0 MEDITATION =A0 =A0 This may be of some help? =A0 As to Meditation:=A0=20 =A0 Some thoughts and ideas on trying to learn how to meditate =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ------------------------------ =A0 WHY IS LITTLE KNOWN ABOUT MEDITATION ? =A0 =A0 As in most things, concerning which there seems to be little general knowledge, we ought to seek for the definitions that are around us.=A0 Theosophy has a specific definition, as the meditation technique is one that a student uses to learn about himself and nature. =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 MEDITATION IS A DAILY AND LIFE-LONG EFFORT. =A0 =A0 The first consideration to employ is to consider the indwelling=20 Monad [Buddhi-Manas] is an immortal SPIRITUAL entity=20 living at present in a vesture of material flesh, blood and skin.=A0=20 The vesture is continually changing, but the interior=20 SPIRIT/SOUL is permanent and immovable. It is the=20 PERCEIVER. =A0 =A0 =A0Second It [the Monad] is an integral part of the eternal Universe.=A0 =A0Its "birth" and its "death" coincides with the birth and death of =A0the Universe.=A0 As such, it never "dies." =A0 =A0 Third=A0=A0 Every capacity and power inherent in the UNIVERSE=20 resides in potency within each Monad.=A0 But it needs to be=20 educed and brought forward for use by individual self-effort=20 and assiduous practice.=A0 The Mind embodied in man's form=20 is the active agent for this transformation.=20 =A0 =A0 Four=A0=A0=A0=A0 These potencies and power that are universal, are=20 invariably cooperative and interactive as VIRTUES.=A0=20 [Virtues may be designated as: charity, compassion, generosity,=20 and a refusal to subjugate anyone for any reason,=20 unrevengefulness, sincerity, honesty, desirelessness, and a total=20 lack of lust, anger, desire for fame, or to acquire others'=20 possessions.] =A0 =A0 Five=A0=A0=A0=A0 these virtues are to be understood and made the basis=20 of our incarnated life. This includes our thoughts and desires. =A0 =A0 Six=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Vice and evil are distortions of the TRUE and the=20 SPIRITUAL.=A0 An exaggerated virtue becomes a vice.=A0 The=20 secret lies in tolerance, self discipline and moderation.=A0 The=20 ideal is to be able to act for others' sake, not selfishly in any way. =A0 =A0 Seven=A0 the practical Theosophist is a "magician" who has grasped=20 every aspect of the operation of the Universe and understood the=20 relation between each Monad and all the rest, as well as of the=20 WHOLE.=A0 This can be accurately expressed as UNIVERSAL=20 BROTHERHOOD.=20 =A0=A0 Theosophy considers every human being is a Soul (mind), and is an "Eternal Pilgrim."=A0 The mind principle (called Manas) is that which stores the thoughts of all our lives.=A0 The total quantity of life-thoughts makes the stream of our life's meditation --=A0 or that upon which our heart is set.=A0 We do not often have this as a precise concept, but it can be discovered.=A0 It is not outside of us, but an interior attitude.=A0=20 =A0=A0=A0 Our mind links our embodied consciousness (mind) to the inner=20 Spiritual Root of our nature.=A0 In turn, this places us in a position=20 that we can choose to activate with the Spiritual Principle of the=20 Universe a portion of which ( a "ray," or, "spark") is in us and=20 forms the root-base of our existence and gives us a sense of=20 permanence and of purpose in our existence.=A0 This has no physical=20 locus in the body.=A0 So postures, breathing and a knowledge of the=20 psychic and physiological "chakras" may be quite unnecessary. =A0=A0=A0 With each one of us is associated a measure of Karma -- the fruit of our choices and motives for decisions made in earlier lives. This manifests in our life as character and tendency, as interest and talent or their lack.=A0 We also ought to include in this our interest in "meditation."=A0 Why do we seek to understand and use it?=A0 We tend to place all these things together and call it "our nature."=A0 But, we can also see that "our nature" reaches out to other "natures" and we meet with such friends or enemies in this life that we may have established in earlier ones.=A0 One cannot understand or practice meditation without this as a consideration that interlinks us all. =A0=A0=A0 Mme. Blavatsky says in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY (p. 10): =A0 "Meditation ..."is silent and unuttered prayer, or, as Plato expressed it, "the ardent turning of the soul towards the divine."=A0 This divine is the Higher Self (Atma/Buddhi) or the divine Spirit-Wisdom within each of us. =A0=A0 "Occultism requires "physical, mental, moral and spiritual" development to run on parallel lines...the prime factor in the guidance of thought is the Will...The first requisite for it is thorough purity of heart...A cultivation of the feeling of unselfish philanthropy is the path that has to be traversed for that purpose.=A0 For it is that alone which will lead to Universal Love, the realization of which constitutes the progress towards deliverance from the chains forged by Maya around the Ego...An Adept is intensely active and thus able to control the elemental forces, " wrote Damodar K. Mavlankar in an article titled: CONTEMPLATION=A0=20 =A0=A0=A0 ["THEOSOPHIST Magazine," Vol. 5, p.=A0 112..., Feb.=A0 1884.] =A0=A0=A0 "Fearlessness, sincerity, assiduity in devotion, generosity,=20 self-restraint, piety, and alms-givings, study, mortification, and=20 rectitude; harmlessness, veracity, and freedom from anger,=20 resignation, equanimity, and not speaking of the faults of others,=20 universal compassion, modesty, and mildness; patience, power,=20 fortitude, and purity, discretion, dignity, unrevengefulness, and=20 freedom from conceit=AF these are the marks of him whose virtues=20 are of a godlike character, O son of Bharata."=20 Thus spoke Sri Krishna to his disciple Arjuna on the "field of battle,"=20 which is the field of duty and of responsibility that lies within and=20 around us all.=A0=A0 [BHAGAVAD GITA, Ch 16 ] =A0 =A0 There are two main objectives to Meditation. One concerns the=20 transitory Personality [Kama-Manas] of this life. The other is=20 aimed at bringing out into light and life the divine Spiritual SELF=20 within each atom as well as every human being: the ATMA.=20 To achieve this the Kama-Manas has to be transmuted by steadily=20 applied virtue into BUDDHI-MANAS - the true Man - the=20 "Eternal Pilgrim," then the divine Man within is revealed and made=20 active. =A0=A0 One, [Hatha Yoga] is directed at enhancing the Personality in its=20 selfish acquisition of "powers."=A0 it is selfish, and it isolates.=A0 It concentrates one's effort on personal results -- if persisted in, it will produce some limited results and, at death, it leaves nothing for Devachanic meditation.=A0 Anything that "isolates" is selfish and harmful to the lower Self, and distances it/us from that permanent Higher Self, which is the true immortal aspirant=20 and immortal devotee in each one of us. =A0=A0 =A0 The other [Raja Yoga] is that which is aimed at discovering and=20 understanding the Inner ATMA-BUDDHI by the Buddhi-Manas, =A0or, the HIGHER SELF [ATMA] and the potential that it can make=20 available for practical, universal and righteous action.=A0=20 =A0=A0 =A0 This kind of meditation leads to compassion and a real effective care for others.=A0 It views us as one among many.=A0 It also considers that as an=20 "immortal" Mind/Soul we have innately to ourselves a mission that=20 needs the joint cooperative assistance of others to achieve.=A0 We can=20 only reach "Perfection," or the "Goal" envisaged, by joint work.=A0=20 The whole of humanity, and all Nature is engaged in this. =A0=A0=20 =A0 "A chela's meditation should constitute the "reasoning from the=20 known to the unknown...Occultism does not depend upon one=20 method, but employs both the deductive and the inductive.=A0 The=20 student must first learn the general axioms...'To believe without=20 knowing is weakness; to believe because one knows, is power.' " =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0 D. K. Mavlankar [idem.]. =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 HOW CAN MEDITATION BE USED AND DEVELOPED ? =A0 =A0 In considering the development of the meditative faculty we need first to learn and then seek those applications which can be made compassionate generously and practically.=A0 Our perception grows deeper and more universal as we are able to widen our effectiveness in helping others to grow themselves.=A0 "For others' sake=A0 ... " is a good phrase always to keep in mind.=A0=20 =A0 =A0 We grow best when we give away.=A0 But we have to give away with discrimination, and that takes sound preliminary learning.=A0 There is the accumulation of facts, then their arrangement in logical relationships, and, finally, the construction in our own minds of the structure of a universal verity to which we will always be able to refer as a basis for understanding what appears to be "new" concepts.=A0 Who does this?=A0 It is the Real Self, the Higher=20 Mind when it works in and through the Lower (embodied) Mind=20 that does this with care and deliberation. =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 PRACTICE AND MEANING OF MEDITATION. =A0 =A0 As to the meaning and practice of meditation:=A0 It should never be conspicuous, or spoken about.=A0 And that is because it is the normal extension of one's study of universal principles. Everyone knows about study.=A0 Everyone has devoted a long time to actual study and meditation in school life. To study, we place "facts" (or data) in our minds -- as "memory."=A0 To meditate one selects from among our memories a group or an area of study. =A0The memories are evoked and then compared with such basic facts as we are already sure of.=A0 Therefore, every time that one studied a subject, or wrote an article, or an important letter,=A0 or prepared for a talk the meditative aspect of study was invoked. =A0 =A0 Even when one is not studying,=A0 but only doing one's work, and happen to think about some subject that is kept "in the back of the mind," it is evidence of meditation being pursuing as an ongoing process.=A0 If one reflects on this then the process was: selection, gathering information, adjusting data so that a cohesive picture grew, identifying areas that were uncertain, and finally looking for analogous or similar conditions.=A0 Anything new has to be adjusted so that it is seen to agree with basic information already proved to ones' self.=A0 If in the course of meditation one is confronted with some fact that is not congruent with already proven verities, this necessitates a most careful review of all our earlier built conclusions.=A0 If we should arbitrarily accept anything without this checking and verifying process we might be increasing an area of error in our thinking. =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 THE UNIVERSE IS COHESIVE AND COOPERATIVE. =A0=A0 Theosophy shows how the whole Universe is integrated and has a =A0 profound cohesive and logical meaning.=A0 Everything fits together, =A0 and invites our scrutiny and testing.=A0 There are no secrets as =A0 such, nor any dogmas or beliefs that we should adopt without =A0 understanding.=A0 Nothing will ever be expected of us which we =A0 cannot understand and would do willingly once we are sure of the =A0 intention, methods and results. =A0=A0 =A0 So our lives are part of the Universal Life, and as we seek to =A0 know it better, we delve deeper into our own being, trying to =A0 find out what we are and what are the powers of our mind and our =A0 own Spiritual Self, that we can use in the "here and now.". =A0 =A0 =A0 VIRTUES:=A0 BROTHERHOOD, COMPASSION, ALTRUISM. =A0=A0 =A0 We should discover that this leads to friendliness, brotherhood, =A0 compassion and altruism.=A0 And, those should be practiced with =A0 discrimination and care for others all the time.=A0=A0 The interior =A0 "WE" is really the HIGHER SELF.=A0 It is the Lower self, the Lower =A0 mind and the Personality (which has to recognized the existence of =A0 the HIGHER SELF), that is the way in which we can invoke it, so =A0 the HIGHER SELF may "come through" with greater ease. =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 CONSCIOUSNESS is ONE.=A0 It is the one attribute of the Higher =A0 Self.=A0 It, alone is able to pierce up and down the 7 planes of =A0 being, and it retains a clear memory of experiences on each plane. =A0 Our memories on this plane are fragmentary, until by effort we =A0 learn to unify them.=A0 The practice of "attention" does this, but, =A0 it has to be attentive to grasping the operations of the One Law =A0 and impersonal in our application of that to our personal selves. =A0=A0 =A0 =A0 MEDITATION and THE MONAD=A0 (Atma-Buddhi-Manas) =A0=A0 =A0 It is the process of digesting, assimilation and thinking about =A0 the matter.=A0 By this method, one is inviting the discriminating =A0 and Wise principle -- Buddhi --=A0 to work actively as the =A0 "intuition," and for insights to appear to help.=A0 They come from =A0 within, they are the "points of light" that come from the Higher =A0 Self working through the lower Self (which has to make itself =A0 "porous" to them) and then our lives become illumined by the =A0 TRUE, and become friendly to all others, become just and =A0 universal. =A0=A0 =A0 MEDITATION is serious and concentrated thought.=A0 It is not a =A0 ritual, or a discipline that involves anything of the physical or =A0 the psychic.=A0 It should not be advertised or made obvious to =A0 others, nor should it make personal life more difficult.=A0=20 =A0 =A0 =A0 It is in essence a search for TRUTH.=A0 It is a quiet, unobtrusive =A0 mind exercise.=A0 It is something that requires that we be fully =A0 awake and totally concentrated in the waking state -- no =A0 "blanking of the mind", and it is to be entirely self-controlled =A0 and self-generated.=A0 It is not an exercise that can be practised =A0 with others, even when there are silent moments, for the reason =A0 that it is not passivity, but a time of most active mental effort. =A0 =A0 =A0 We ought to draw no attention to our practice and if we should be =A0 interrupted, accept it as a kind of test of our equanimity, and =A0 let there be no apparent reaction.=A0 We are immortal beings=A0 and =A0 have all the time we need for our future advance -- so long as we =A0 are able to include everyone else in our progress.=A0 That is the =A0 real key to advance - the sharing of ourselves.=A0 We should always =A0 make time to assist. =A0=A0 =A0 It does not involve trying to get at the meaning of special words =A0 and especially without a truly correct understanding of what they =A0 mean and are (potentially) able to do -- whether they be =A0 pronounced correctly or not.=A0 That is all physical, external and =A0 fruitless.=A0 The real power resides in the application of the =A0 motive as a carefully controlled and always beneficent creative =A0 power.=A0=A0=A0 Among those who aspire to assist Nature, this is never =A0 personal, and is always used (only if necessary) in a harmless, =A0 wise and compassionate way with a Mind that is determined to be a =A0 servant, and an assistant to all Nature and to the least of beings =A0 which approaches us under Karma.=A0 We should consider all =A0 those as being, themselves, divine MONADS, and give each of=20 =A0 them the respect and attention (as our brothers) that they claim=20 =A0 or, that we come aware that they need. =A0 =A0 Real meditation is a mental determination to live a totally moral =A0 and ethical life, all the time;=A0 and to the extent that one is able to =A0 do that.=A0 It is nothing extraordinary except for this one =A0 orientation that has to come from WITHIN.=A0 We have to assure =A0 ourselves first of all that our learning is not self-directed at =A0 all, but that our motive is "to better help and teach others." =A0=A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE --=A0 INTUITION. =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 The VOICE OF THE SILENCE and its statements ought to be =A0 considered as one of the primary practical sources of inspiration =A0 for true Meditation.=A0 We ought, by reading a little every day, to =A0 become familiar with it and the explanations contained in the =A0 footnotes there. =A0 =A0 =A0 As said before, it is most important to remember that we are the =A0 HIGHER SELF in our inner-most core (and everyone else is so =A0 also).=A0 Every being exists because of the essential and ETERNAL =A0 MONAD that it is.=A0 That Monad is SPIRIT and MATTER conjoined, or =A0 ATMA/BUDDHI -- and that is interior to all without any exception. =A0 It is the ETERNAL PILGRIM and it is the "Real You." =A0 =A0 =A0 Every human being (and every other type of being is also at root =A0 a Monad).=A0 In the past, our MONAD once occupied a position =A0 that is comparable to that which another Monad which is apparently=20 =A0 in a lower position, now seems to occupy.=A0 We only appear to be=20 =A0 separated at present, because we have, each of us, our own =A0 individual path.=A0 In the end (at the end of the Manvantara) all =A0 those 'Paths' converge. So, from that point of view, it is not =A0 useful to seek "guidance," or any "leader" who will prescribe =A0 some ritual or formula.=A0 Books will not be able to tell anyone =A0 what to do, but they can offer advice.=A0 It is too easy to be =A0 misled.=A0 The TRUE Teacher is the Higher Self within. =A0 =A0 =A0 We must remember that the Monad is an immortal.=A0 It cannot be =A0 "erased" as Individuality at the end of a Manvantara, for the =A0 economy of Nature demands that all those INDIVIDUALITIES =A0 (experienced MONADS) be employed again, in continuation of their =A0 present "advance" at an appropriate place in a new Manvantara =A0 which will be the Karmic child of the present one.=A0 (see HPB =A0 ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISHISTADWAITA,=A0 HPB Articles, =A0 Vol. III, p. 265, ULT Edition,=A0 "Theosophist," Jan. 1886.) =A0 =A0 =A0 Everyone has been at this business of self-improvement for =A0 aeons -- and it does not begin for the first time in this life. =A0 In this life we are all renewing that age-old study that was ours =A0 in the past.=A0 If we could recover the "memory of past lives" the =A0 whole process of advancing would be much easier.=A0 If we are now =A0 considering the study of Theosophy, it is that which, if and when =A0 applied, will make our embodied minds (the Lower Self) clearer =A0 and porous, so that the Higher Memories may be accessed. =A0 =A0 =A0 PATANJALI's=A0 YOGA-SUTRAS=A0 -- A BASIS FOR MEDITATION. =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 PATANJALI's=A0 YOGA SUTRAS translated by W. Q. Judge, is most =A0 valuable in a study of the nature and procedures of meditation -- =A0 especially the first 3 books.=A0 It gives a clue as to what true =A0 meditation is.=A0 It is the attempt of the embodied mind (the Lower =A0 Manas) to reach up to and understand the work of the Higher Manas =A0 within.=A0 And from there to participate in the work of the HIGHER =A0 SELF.=A0 It deals with the concept that we live in a moral Universe=20 =A0 where every feeling, thought or deed carries a Karmic consequence. =A0 =A0 =A0 As a beginning, one might at first study, frame questions, then =A0 begin to assemble all that one has learned or has available on a =A0 selected subject.=A0 This assembling is a primary need, gives a needed=20 =A0 review of those subjects and ideas -- then one ought to put them all =A0 together and see if one can secure a glimpse of the inner reason =A0 and meaning for their being there [ to do this, one ought to ask =A0 the all-important question:=A0 WHY ?=A0 --=A0 An answer takes the =A0 practitioner to basic principles and enables a clear perception =A0 of their inter-relation with others and thus to the CAUSES ] -- =A0 and that is MEDITATION. =A0 =A0 =A0 Offered in the hope that this might help. =A0 =A0 Best wishes, =A0 =A0 Dallas =A0 =A0=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =A0 =A0 =A0 -----Original Message----- From: Jerome=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 11:55 AM To:=20 =A0 Subject: Re: The real seership =A0=A0 Our new people out here are clamoring for "how to" books on meditation, so the A. T. has had several articles on the subject and has one coming up --- its an article about the recent NPR program on meditation. =A0 =A0 jerome =A0 =A0=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=A0 =A0 On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 13:47:02 -0400 Odin=A0 writes: =A0=A0 =A0 =A0This seems a subject generally ignored in conservative Theosophical =A0circles. As indicated below in her article "SPIRITUAL PROGRESS,"=20 =A0 HPB=A0 [HPB Articles=A0 II=A0 112 - 114] declares a practical value inheren= t in such study and applications=A0 that she recommends. Shouldn't such be occasionally reinforced among=A0 students who desire to add practical work = to their metaphysics? =A0 =A0 " The Theosophical Society does indeed desire to promote the spiritual =A0growth of every individual who comes within its influence, but its =A0methods are those of the ancient Rishis, its tenets those of the =A0oldest Esotericism; it is no dispenser of patent nostrums composed=20 =A0of=A0 violent remedies which no honest healer would dare to use. =A0 =A0In this connection we would warn all our members, and others who are =A0seeking spiritual knowledge, to beware of persons offering to teach =A0them easy methods of acquiring psychic gifts; such gifts (laukika)=20 =A0are=A0 indeed comparatively easy of acquirement by artificial means, but= =20 =A0fade=A0 out as soon as the nerve-stimulus exhausts itself. =A0 The real seership and adeptship which is accompanied by true psychic =A0development (lokothra), once reached, is never lost. =A0 =A0It appears that various societies have sprung into existence since=A0 th= e =A0foundation of the Theosophical Society, profiting by the interest=A0 the =A0latter has awakened in matters of psychic research, and endeavouring =A0to gain members by promising them easy acquirement of psychic=20 =A0powers. =A0=A0 =A0In India we have long been familiar with the existence of hosts of =A0sham ascetics of all descriptions, and we fear that there is fresh =A0danger in this direction, here, as well as in Europe and America. We =A0only hope that none of our members, dazzled by brilliant promises, =A0will allow themselves to be taken in by self-deluded dreamers, or,=20 =A0it=A0 may be, wilful deceivers. =A0 =A0It is perfectly true that some Theosophists have been (through =A0nobody's fault but their own) greatly disappointed because we have =A0offered them no short cut to Yoga Vidya, and there are others who=20 =A0wish=A0 for practical work. And, significantly enough, those who have do= ne =A0least for the Society are loudest in fault-finding. Now, why do not =A0these persons and all our members who are able to do so, take up the =A0serious study of mesmerism? =A0 =A0Mesmerism has been called the Key to the Occult Sciences, and it has =A0this advantage that it offers peculiar opportunities for doing good=A0 t= o =A0mankind. If in each of our branches we were able to establish a =A0homeopathic dispensary with the addition of mesmeric healing, such=20 =A0as=A0 has already been done with great success in Bombay, we might =A0contribute towards putting the science of medicine in this country=20 =A0on=A0 a sounder basis, and be the means of incalculable benefit to the =A0people at large. =A0 =A0There are others of our branches, besides the one at Bombay, that=20 =A0have=A0 done good work in this direction, but there is room for infinite= ly =A0more to be done than has yet been attempted. And the same is the=20 =A0case=A0 in the various other departments of the Society's work. It would= be=20 =A0a=A0 good thing if the members of each branch would put their heads =A0together and seriously consult as to what tangible steps they can=20 =A0take=A0 to further the declared objects of the Society. In too many case= s=20 =A0the=A0 members of the Theosophical Society content themselves with a=20 =A0somewhat=A0 superficial study of its books, without making any real=20 contribution=A0 to its active work. =A0 =A0If the Society is to be a power for good in this and other lands, it =A0can only bring about this result by the active co-operation of every =A0one of its members, and we would earnestly appeal to each of them to =A0consider carefully what possibilities of work are within his power, =A0and then to earnestly set about carrying them into effect. =A0 =A0Right thought is a good thing, but thought alone does not count for =A0much unless it is translated into action. There is not a single=20 =A0member=A0 in the Society who is not able to do something to aid the caus= e of =A0truth and universal brotherhood; it only depends on his own will, to =A0make that something an accomplished fact. =A0 =A0Above all we would reiterate the fact, that the Society is no=A0 nursery =A0for incipient adepts; teachers cannot be provided to go round and=20 =A0give=A0 instruction to various branches on the different subjects which = come =A0within the Society's work of investigation; the branches must study =A0for themselves; books are to be had, and the knowledge there put=20 =A0forth=A0 must be practically applied by the various members thus will be =A0developed self-reliance, and reasoning powers. =A0 =A0We urge this strongly; for appeals have reached us that any lecturer =A0sent to branches must be practically versed in experimental=20 =A0psychology=A0 and clairvoyance (i.e., looking into magic mirrors and=20 =A0reading the=A0 future, etc., etc.). Now we consider that such experiment= s =A0should =A0originate amongst members themselves to be of any value in the =A0development of the individual or to enable him to make progress in=20 =A0his=A0 "uphill" path, and therefore earnestly recommend our members to t= ry =A0for themselves."=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0"SPIRITUAL PROGRESS,"=A0 -- HPB= =A0=20 =A0 [HPB Articles=A0 II=A0 112 - 114] =A0 =A0---------- =A0 Best wishes =A0 =A0 =A0 Dallas =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Dallas =A0 From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Aug 03 19:48:00 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12297 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2005 02:47:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2005 02:47:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.200.79) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2005 02:47:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 11857 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Aug 2005 02:47:45 -0000 Message-ID: <20050804024745.11855.qmail@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.113] by web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:47:45 PDT Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:47:45 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <006001c59819$762640f0$152ca8c0@thebeast> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 68.142.200.79 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Pluto X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=7Tr0L7DQbqKm-UIbpsf5pgx99QjCdabuCnQVV8KVPLd2eWqMiA X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank Thanks, but you will have to decipher this for me. Also have found some interesting comments in the Mahatma Letters re planets. Cass Frank Reitemeyer wrote: it's in B:CW X:340f. ----- Original Message ----- From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" To: "AA-BNStudy" Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:22 PM Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: Pluto July 1 2005 Kathy For the moment I can't find it either. I recall HPB writing of an infra Mercurial planet occasionally seen and tentatively named VULCAN. I'll look further and let you know. FOUND See TRANSACTIONS of the BLAVATSKY LODGE (p. 48 in U L T Edn) [Blavatsky: COLLECTED WORKS -- Vol. 10, before p 246 -- see answer to 3rd question in SECTION IV Stanza 1] She mentions another planet with a retrograde motion. ? I listen in the past 3 days to a fresh discovery of an ultra-Plutonian planet ? being discovered. Best wishes, Dallas ============================== -----Original Message----- From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cass Silva Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 7:41 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Pluto Dallas, Didn't HPB say something about an as yet undiscovered planet? I have searched for the quote but cannot find it. Cass Puny Pluto gets big brother It's a planet! By Jeremy Manier Tribune staff reporter Published July 30, 2005 Larger than Pluto and far beyond its orbit, shining so brightly an amateur stargazer could have spotted it years ago, there is a 10th planet, astronomers announced late Friday. Calling the still-unnamed world a planet likely will stir intense debate among some astronomers who argue that even tiny Pluto would not be called a planet were it discovered today. But if Pluto counts as a planet with a width of about 1,400 miles, the new world--which may be up to twice as big--also belongs on the list, said Mike Brown, leader of the team that made the discovery. "Get your pens; start rewriting the textbooks today," said Brown, a professor of planetary science at the California Institute of Technology who has hunted for such an object for more than five years. For now the would-be planet goes by the unwieldy designation of 2003UB313. Brown said his team has proposed a more melodious name to the Paris-based International Astronomical Union and is waiting for approval before making it public. The planet is now 9 billion miles from the sun--more than twice as distant as Pluto at its farthest point--and takes 560 years to make one orbit. It would be the first planet discovered in our solar system since astronomer Clyde Tombaugh found Pluto in 1930. Larry Lebofsky, a senior research scientist at the University of Arizona's Lunar and Planetary Laboratory who was not involved in the finding, agreed with Brown that the object deserves planetary status. "I like the idea that somewhere along the line humans defined Pluto as the limit of what we call a planet," Lebofsky said. "If you find something larger, there's no reason why that shouldn't count too." Brown made a rushed announcement late Friday at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California, after his team realized someone had hacked into their Web site and accessed the crucial data, apparently with the goal of making it public. It was "someone with more cleverness than scruples," Brown said. "It's not the way we'd prefer to do it, but that's the way it happened." Because the team had not finished analyzing the planet, they still do not know precisely how large it is. Astronomers gauge the size of such distant objects by measuring their brightness; if a distant object is still very bright, it must also be large. Brown said 2003UB313 is so bright and so far away that even if its surface were extremely reflective, the world would have to be larger than Pluto. At most, it may be twice Pluto's size. "We expect it's about 1 1/2 times larger," Brown said. Brown's team had known about the object since Jan. 8, when they detected it using the relatively small 48-inch Samuel Oschin Telescope at Mt. Palomar in California. The telescope uses a 180-megapixel digital camera with the widest field of view of any astronomical camera, which lets the team survey huge swaths of sky at once. Like Pluto, the new object orbits the sun at a strange angle--in the case of the new world, about 44 degrees off the plane where the other planets move. It also follows a highly irregular orbit, swinging in almost to the circuit of Neptune at its closest point. Brown said an amateur could see the object with a 14-inch telescope; in North America it is now visible almost directly overhead at dawn. The team had used its telescope for years to search for objects in the Kuiper Belt, a broad disk of icy bodies in the expanses of space beyond Pluto. Last year Brown's group found Sedna, an object about three-fourths the size of Pluto and whose irregular orbit extends far beyond that of 2003UB313. On Thursday, astronomers in Spain announced the discovery of another large Kuiper Belt object, which Brown's group had tracked as well. Brown said Friday that his team's observations indicate that world is about the same size as Sedna The presence of so many Pluto-like worlds at the outer expanses of the solar system has prompted some astronomers to argue that Pluto--less than half the size of the next smallest planet, Mercury--is an unremarkable hunk of ice that doesn't belong with either the rocky planets close to the sun or the gas giants beyond. In 2000 the American Museum of Natural History demoted Pluto by leaving it out of a display of the planets, though other museums have not taken such drastic steps. The International Astronomical Union still classifies Pluto as a planet. Brown confessed he used to be among those who thought Pluto never deserved planetary clout. But he said he has come to believe that on this question, what ordinary people think is as important as the technical judgment of astronomers. "People love Pluto," Brown said. "Calling Pluto not a planet is never going to be a popular decision. It seems reasonable if that Pluto is a planet and you've got something bigger and farther, you'd better call that a planet too." By that standard, the new world's acceptance as a planet may hinge on whether the public warms up to it. "Maybe it depends on what name they came up with," Lebofsky said. ---------- jmanier@tribune.com --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Thu Aug 04 08:10:38 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 1827 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2005 15:10:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2005 15:10:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx01.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.11) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2005 15:10:35 -0000 Received: from 3e6b1dc3.rev.stofanet.dk ([62.107.29.195] helo=khidr) by mx01.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1E0hMd-0003YT-24 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:10:35 +0200 Message-ID: <000d01c59906$ccc233e0$c31d6b3e@khidr> To: References: <000301c59697$6aac44f0$2fdeb3d1@DALLAS> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 17:11:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-7"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Originating-IP: 212.10.10.11 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "M. Sufilight" Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Gregory's biggest mistake in life X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933; y=dQSahgtH0p8eVpRFALsZtHz-w95MWaqhKBsf7LXBz8HY X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Dallas and all, My views are: Interesting answer Dallas. Thanks. But if your comments in the below are in accordance with truth, I think we will have to ask whether your presentation of the theosophical teachings it is in accordance with a teaching which has considered the importance of taking - the place, TIME, people involved and spiritual needs of the process - into account. 1. There are several interesting aspects in the below comments written by Dallas. You write interestingly about "facts" and "opinion". I would like to add my view: What is a "fact" to some readers, are only an "opinion" to others. And this we all aught to consider carefully in our exchanges. Some readers understand this and others do not. 2. Dallas wrote in the below about THEOSOPHY: "It provides history, logic and an altruistic "Goal" that all can recognize, test and use if found to be valid." My Sufilight answer: Yes. Dallas, but in what manner does THEOSOPHY do that? And almost the same could be asked about with some of the other statements of yours in the below. The next questions of mine - I do find to be very important. First. Are the various "teachers" or "emailers" - Dallas and Morten included - presenting THEOSOPHY in a manner, which are both in accordance with the Place, TIME, People involved spiritual needs of the process, - (And not merely the spiritual Wants of the proces.) ? If not, what are they/we then missing? Is it a more wise relation to multi-cultural values, which are lacking? Is it the crystallizing of the cultural focus? Is it the clash between the Middle East vs. the West, Iran vs. Washington/London ? Is it the heavy use of old books and quotes from them instead of new ones adapted more to our present time? Is it a lack of focus on what the Seven Keys are, and "dead-letter" reading and teaching? Are we missing the teacher wich HPB foretold should come? Are the translations of certain writings to non-english languages creating a problem? If we are not missing anything, - are we then blind to the truth like the pharisees? "About finding fault with others" - and the Bhagavad Gita quote in the below by Dallas. It is of course not a good idea to find faults with others if your motive is a bad one. But if your motive is a compassionate one, then your are helpful to the individual and cosmos. How can we help people at all, if their faults are not corrected in a certain manner? (Sometimes I think that one only aught to read the Bhagavad Gita in Sanskrit or on the Akasha level. All these problematic translations of the Bhagavad Gita can be a nusiance to us all. Take for instance also the words "demoniacal dispositions".) 3. Dallas wrote: "What are the BASICS ? In the past 130 years we have still got "originals" of the TEXTS as well as photographic copies of those "originals," and, in addition, we have had these "originals" placed on Internet and CDs, so anyone can have and use them. " My Sufilight answer: But Dallas all your talk about "original texts" seem almost Jesuit like, does it not? Theosophy is not Bible study is it? The Secret Doctrine is not a Bible is it? Mere book reading will not help the Seeker reach the most high level of liberation at the "highest abode", the abode of the Avatar.(Try Bhagavad Gita by Sir Edwin Arnold, Chapter 8, v16-22) More is CLEARLY needed. I agree, that the Seeker and Student will have to learn to think on a higher level and develop. And that is important. And that is why it is important how the teachings are being formulated today 2005, now 30 years since the arrival of the teacher foretold by Blavatsky. A teacher which has not been named yet. The teachings has to be formulated in accordance with the Place, TIME, People involved spiritual needs of the process, -(And not merely the spiritual Wants of the proces.) from M. Sufilight (I would like to add, that a number of people read emails or other scripts. And a few weeks later they have forgotten about the content.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" To: "AA-BNStudy" Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 2:49 PM Subject: Theos-World RE: Gregory's biggest mistake in life August 1, 2005 Dear Friends: The subjoined comments appear in the main useful and correct. Let us however observe that THEOSOPHY is as old as Mankind. It provides history, logic and an altruistic "Goal" that all can recognize, test and use if found to be valid. It is not "congregational." It does not seek numbers of "politically correct" adherents. It seeks to keep the record of ancient Laws, Rules and objectives alive and prominent for those who seek them to find and use. Those who assist in this do not seek any recognition of followers. They present what they have discovered, honestly, accurately, and openly, having only respect for facts and not for individuals and their "opinions." The principle is: "And that power the disciple shall covet is that which will make him appear as the least among men." {LIGHT ON THE PATH p. 4} THEOSOPHY provides its own validation. But to be able to know and use it the student/disciples have to study it. This aspect of the link is vital, since any advance or improvement in the nature, capacity and character of those who approach THEOSOPHY is self-generated. It is here that the motto of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY is to be invariably applied: "There is no Religion higher than TRUTH." No amount of money, or public display of loyalty, and the following of rites, rituals and ceremonies (and altered texts) helps. All the self-reform is interior and within the conscious intelligence (MIND) of each disciple. This is real "key to occultism." It is firmly grasped by every aspirant. Opening the 16th Chapter of the BHAGAVAD GITA, Sri Krishna says: "Fearlessness, sincerity, assiduity in devotion, generosity, self-restraint, piety, and alms-givings, study, mortification, and rectitude; harmlessness, veracity, and freedom from anger, resignation, equanimity, and not speaking of the faults of others, universal compassion, modesty, and mildness; patience, power, fortitude, and purity, discretion, dignity, unrevengefulness, and freedom from conceit¯ these are the marks of him whose virtues are of a godlike character, O son of Bharata. Those, O son of Pritha, who are born with demoniacal dispositions are marked by hypocrisy, pride, anger, presumption, harshness of speech, and ignorance. The destiny of those whose attributes are godlike is final liberation, while those of demoniacal dispositions, born to the Asuras' lot, [suffer] continued bondage to mortal birth; grieve not." It is for this reason that the THREE FUNDAMENTALS of THEOSOPHY are to be learned, tested, and applied to anything that is claimed to be theosophical or even non-theosophical. For the mentally lazy and those who are "obtuse," Theosophy has nothing to offer. For those who are in search of TRUTH and the answers to the gaps of knowledge that our present-day education or erudition displays (in the sciences. academies and religious bodies everywhere) THEOSOPHY offers the HISTORY [S D I 267 top] of all antiquity and the cumulated research of the greatest Sages of the World -- it progenitors, supervisors and continuing mentors: The Masters of Wisdom. What are the BASICS ? In the past 130 years we have still got "originals" of the TEXTS as well as photographic copies of those "originals," and, in addition, we have had these "originals" placed on Internet and CDs, so anyone can have and use them. We have a catalog of laws, facts truths which anyone can verify - which demand no credulity and seek no "faith" or masses of "adherents." Everything rests upon a FOUNDATION. What of this does THEOSOPHY offer? If we were (all who are interested) to meet together at one of the ancient circular theatres where the "stage" is in the center we might expect to find 1 In the center of the stage a Golden glow indicating the Ancient Lodge. We are not able to discern anyone clearly therein through that curtain of light. 2 At its rim (for us to see) are H P B, Olcott and Judge. They hold the "original writings and teachings of THEOSOPHY" in their hands. To them as assistants came Subba Row, Damodar, Jasper Niemand, the Keightleys, Mead, Crooks, Cleather, and others. 3 The rest of us - their students sit in the circular rows around that "Stage" 4 We all have got the same books available to us as they were originally written. Those who have and use them sit near the front facing the stage. Those who fail to study or use corrupted books and texts sit further back. 5 As we move around the seats and go towards the back we may note in this imaginary forum that not all have the original texts, or "foundation" books, or do not read or study them very often. They are responsible for their various "opinions," confusingly dispensed. 6 Some we note have substituted for the basic books, interpretations and manuals that " abbreviate" or "explain." And it is they who have decided to consider the authors of those altered texts as "authorities" valuable and sound, but, but they have not verified this for themselves. Their carelessness or laziness and lack of accuracy, is passed on and usually given great importance until such time as someone confronts it with facts and truths. By that time it is painful to have to retract and redefine one's so far well supported opinions. [In the world of Science, we find the Darwinists and those who foreshorten the vast periods of time needed for actual change and evolutionary development are at war with the facts of time provided by current discoveries that indicate a far vaster antiquity for eras and events. It is a problem that has to do with the honesty and character of those involved. Not with the actual facts of discovery, which in some cases, we find have been suppressed or concealed -- as earlier hypotheses and theories are found progressively invalidated.] 7. The whole theatre cannot hold the rest of those interested in THEOSOPHY who have come to it through the agency of the books in Libraries, talks, the Media presentations, Internet and recordings on CDs. But this number has expanded the penetration of theosophical ideas and doctrines enormously. And so on. As we continue our round we find that there are groups forming among those who attend where particular books (not necessarily the "originals") are and have been chosen for that community of members or students, for their selected study and attention. We also notice that the original organization the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY founded Nov. 17, 1875 in New York has become sub-divided. When HPB and Col. Olcott moved to work in India at the beginning of 1879, it was Col. Olcott who declared that the Headquarters of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY would be wherever he resided. This was accepted (but no Resolution at the Original, Founding Society in New York was ever so passed). There is th reason and basis for a THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY that calls itself "International" and uses "Adyar" as a HQ. It has a number of National Sections, and many independent Branches and even independent THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETIES. [The London Lodge (President: Mr. A. P. Sinnett), and the T S Lodge in Edmonton, Canada, are an example of this kind of affiliated independence. Some Sections have been excommunicated by the Adyar H Q: The USA, Germany, Denmark, Canada, etc...] There is another THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY with branches in America, and elsewhere, that refers to "Pasadena" as their H Q. There is a dispersed and informal group that call themselves "associates of U L T," and while they have a number of independent Lodges and Study Groups, they have no "center." They employ the "Original Teachings of THEOSOPHY" as a basis for their common work and progressing study. Notice ought to be made for comparison of current Magazines published by the various T S es. A comparison of their articles and contents reveals the nature of the force behind those efforts. Additionally several E-ZINES (Internet Magazines), such as THEOS-WORLD, AQUARIAN THEOSOPHIST, are being regularly issued. While this "situation report" is obviously brief, shortened and inaccurate in detail, it can give us something to think about. The main idea to dwell on I think is: "Am I studying "original" THEOSOPHY or am I studying something filtered by another's thoughts and ideas? Best wishes, Dallas ==================================== -----Original Message----- From: M. Sufilight Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 12:33 AM To: Subject: Re: Gregory's biggest mistake in life Hallo all, My views are: Thanks to Dallas and other replies. And now we have: CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THE ESOTERICAL AND THEOSOPHICAL TEACHINGS (PART 2) " Q: How is it known to the participants of such a group as to how accurate or meaningful their theosophical 'work' is? A: There are no two ways about it. Either it is known to their teacher, if one still exists, in which case he will remedy defects, and they will not be perpetuated. Or it is totally repetitious, and the effort has become an - administrative - one. This happen when there has been no true succession of teaching, so that there is nobody at the top sufficiently developed to be able to diagnose the situation. In this case the group has become to a greater or lesser degree a prisoner of the automatism of the formal world. Q: Does a teacher appear in a (theosophical) group which already exists, or does he/she not? A: He may or he may not. He comes to fulfil a law. He may revalidate the working bases of a derelict group. Q: Why does he do this? A: In response to an inexorable need. Q: Does the group always recognose him? A: Certain people in general do. It will depend upon the apparatus of perception which they have. The onus on him is not primarily to preach, but to make himself available to the perception of the people. Q: Does he need the support of such groups? A: Both parties can benefit, because there is no such thing as solitary work. EVEN a derelict (theosophical group) can be producing semi- consciously a quantity of necessary force ('substance') which we might say goes waste unless it is correctly used. Q: How can we account for the dramatic rise of teachers who purport to have been 'called' to bring, for instance, spirituality to mankind? A: Do not generalise about this. One form is the result of physical laws. A group of people (ie. perhaps socalled theosophists) can engender necessary force (substance) already mentioned. (Added by Sufilight: This force could for instance be called 'promotion of the teaching'). They do not know what to do with it; they may not even really know what it is. An individual, who has another development analogous to their own, may contact this force (distance has no relevance here) and make use of it. Now we have the amusing and also tragic situation in which (a) force is raised by a certain group, (b) it is perceived and employed by someone else, (c) this temporarily reinforces, through vampirism, the 'teacher' who becomes prominent, (d) because of the similarity of this person with their own defective tradition (also sometimes called pseudo-theosophical teaching), the victim group think that he is their teacher, (e) they join him, not realising that he seems to be like them because he is using their own nutrition! (Note added by Sufilight: I can think of at least one theosophical teacher following this pattern. - - - Today this pattern is a nuisance and some Seekers do not realise this and They even follow a repetitous pattern. Ie. a pattern which is not relating itself to the Time, place, people involved and spiritual needs of the process) What you call a movement is part of an organic, natural development. It takes on a local colour because of the culture in which it grows (ie. also "the global planetary culture", which in a sense is local). It cannot be imported together with the local colouring. It may attain a Certain degree of necessary force in its location, but its spread into other areas is conditional upon to vital factors: (1) That it takes root naturally and becomes naturalised in the fresh culture. (2) That there is a need for it in the new culture. The latter condition is operative only when there is a teacher, adequately comminsioned to provide a formulation in that area. ******* from M. Sufilight ============================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Re: Corresponding terms in all religions and philosophies Dear Friend: In ISIS UNVEILED and the SECRET DOCTRINE HPB does this kind of comparison and equivalence all the time. Antique THEOSOPHY is the permanent and basic root of all religions and philosophies. To bring this home to modern research and thought HPB spent great time tracing the historical roots of most of the great religions, sciences and philosophies and also shows how currently they still agree on basics. Yahoo! Groups Links From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Thu Aug 04 09:05:58 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 83349 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2005 16:05:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2005 16:05:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx01.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.11) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2005 16:05:57 -0000 Received: from 3e6b1dc3.rev.stofanet.dk ([62.107.29.195] helo=khidr) by mx01.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1E0iE6-0003Bl-32 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:05:56 +0200 Message-ID: <002401c5990e$85f27b20$c31d6b3e@khidr> To: Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:06:50 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Originating-IP: 212.10.10.11 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "M. Sufilight" Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Greogory's biggest mistake in life X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933; y=5ybAVOM6fC50rfm-XvNn5_dyPVRnh5AGiZ0vCYz5SVQU X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo all, Here is PART 3 of the slightly rewritten text originally written by Idries Shah in his book "The Commanding Self", p. 185-191. Part 1 is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/27799 Part 2 is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/27828 Part 2 endeed with the words: " The latter condition is operative only when there is a teacher, adequately comminsioned to provide a formulation in that area." CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THE ESOTERICAL AND THEOSOPHICAL TEACHINGS (PART 3) Q: So there is no point in travelling to seek knowledge, since it seems that one must wait until a teaching is offered one? A: This is not what I meant. In your terms, the process is something like this. Certain individuals may be 'called' to make journeys, in order to acquire certain capacities. This call which you have too easily assumed to be an act of personal volition, is the result of natural conditions. Such people are attracted, we might almost say 'imported', to be a centre of teaching when this is necessary, in order to fit them for their task. There are different varieties of such individuals. They are 'called' from one cultural area to another precisely when it is necessary for the teaching to be projected in an area of similar cultural background to their own. They become the instrument of the transmission of the teaching into a fresh culture. Q: Will this process be described by the teacher to his followers? A: The teacher will describe to his followers exactly what is necessary for them to know in order to attain a development which it is his duty to assist. His task is not to provide geographical, biographical or mysterious stimulation except for a multiple purpose. Remember that what he does is itself conditioned by necessity and is largely in a realm which is not perceived by the unregenerate. Q: What form does the teaching take? A: It may take many forms. The first step is to attain a stabilisation of mentation which will enable the student to learn. We do not start with an unwarranted assumption that the individual is capable of learning. He may have to learn how to learn. Because of veneration of tradition and lack of understanding of essentials, deteriorated systems concentrate upon the repetition of certain mental and/or physical techniques which provide only a partially-balanced individual. The real teaching covers a very wide range. These include 'undertakings' (tasks) given in order to awaken certain functions which are needed to connect with certain other ones. They may be mental and physical movements, music and special exercises. Q: Are there any special factors which we often do not understand, which might be said to play an important part in real teaching? A: There are many. Here is one. Your are accustomed to assuming that you can be taught something provided that you have the capacity and the conditions. This can be nonsense. People are trying to learn things without realising the simple little fact that certain things can be studied only at certain times. These times are not measured by clock-time. They are known to the teacher through inner cognition, and unless he teaches at those times, all the books or exercises in the world will have next to no effect. Q: I notice that you are not using technical terms very much. Why is this? A: Because you are accustomed to the use of technical terms associated with fragmentary tradition or fragmentary theosophical teachings. If I use a term you recognise, you will immediately associate it with past experiences and incomplete formulation. It will be handled by your intellect and not correctly used.. Further, the terms which are used in one phase of the work are not necessarily those which apply to another. Remember always that if you are using two- thousand year old terms you may be trying to 'work' in a role suited to the people of 2,000 years ago. This is where 'tradition' (or for instance so-called 'original theosophical texts') becomes a trap. Q: But surely there is a system? A: You do not know what a 'system' is. The work is really systematised at a level much higher than the intellect as you know it. Any appearent sytematisation is merely a working frame, concocted for the purpose of bringing the teaching a little nearer to you. It does not have universal validity. The system is known by the teacher and equally developed people, just as you know something so well that you act in accordance with it inevitably. This work is natural, organic and changes form, not content, in accordance with the needs of the people, the work and the teacher. What serves as a system in one phase of the work is not a system in another. ******* Part 4 - the last part of the chapter might follow later. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ringding@online.de Fri Aug 05 05:01:49 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94442 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2005 12:01:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2005 12:01:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.187) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 2005 12:01:48 -0000 Received: from p54BF9F84.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.159.132] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0ML29c-1E10tU0PsQ-00022s; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:01:44 +0200 Message-ID: <00a201c599b5$acff25e0$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:44:05 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.187 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:12:4 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Ellwood misleading on Tingley X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=tWCOZXsUKJdIyItAwtX9nNik6ih2UXpF1IZVvLNr_aleqQUzuvNyujbDhg X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.theosophical.org/theosophy/questmagazine/septoct03/ellwood/ I do not think that Katherine Tingley was a pacifist or that she taught that Theosophy is pacifism. Nevertheless she warned from 1996-1914 before the outbreak of what was later called WW I. But to me the backward conclusion while she proclaimed peace and arranged peace conferences she was a pacifist is wrong. While from one side it is surprizing and interesting do find an Adyar organ to deal with KT after 76 years the misleading bias based on misunderstandings and producing further misunderstanding is a little bit shocking. As Joseph Fussell wrote so well during WW II in the Point Loma magazine the doctrine about war is since endless time secret because it is an art, and a dangerous art if misused. Recent times imply that there are good reason not to give the higher teachings out. But I am quite sure that KT - if she were with us here today in the physical - would also oppose thre recent US wars against Afghanistan and Iraq and the allegedly coming August war against Iran. Frank [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Aug 05 05:55:54 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33518 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2005 12:55:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2005 12:55:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.69) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 2005 12:55:53 -0000 Received: from [209.179.216.1] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E11jn-0000lD-U1; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 08:55:48 -0400 To: Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 05:55:34 -0700 Message-ID: <000b01c599bc$ff8b5570$01d8b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79254d5ea34dc0232feb6446dc898ee522350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.69 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE: MEDITATION X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=XzRzJkfOVv3BOmlQ8iob_YsWRHTAlrhRcFl2n6KBlxvKCQ X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Friday, August 05, 2005 Re CHART ON MEDIATION attributed to HPB. Yes Gopi I am. But where has HPB actually presented and explained it ? I am missing that link. Is it by her or attributed to her ? What are your comments on it ? Thanks and best wishes, Dallas ======================================================== -----Original Message----- From: Gopi Chari [mailto:ekcvv@juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 9:07 PM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] RE: MEDITATION Dallas, Are you familiar with the Meditation Chart given by HPB? If some one wants I cam look it up and send it! Gopi --- Distributed by Blavatsky Net P.O. Box 749 Dover Plains NY 12522 USA You are currently subscribed to bn-study as: [dalval14@earthlink.net] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-study-7560482L@lists.lyris.net From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Aug 05 05:56:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65141 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2005 12:56:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2005 12:56:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.69) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 2005 12:56:21 -0000 Received: from [209.179.216.1] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E11jy-0000lD-Rz; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 08:56:06 -0400 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 05:55:34 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01c599bd$06151200$01d8b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec790149d0329c5f9b814a8e64ac8bbc7dd4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.69 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: Paranirvana and the Absolute X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=t05JZ1vwzdo8h0Ec97b3tqF3b-V5u1SYtpN56twlAbEW8A X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dear Jerry: Most interesting. Let me offer some more definitions from Theosophical texts for consideration: -------------------------------------------------- T H E A B S O L U T E=20 U N I T Y=20 CAUSE -- INFINITE AND ETERNAL "...there is one absolute Reality which antecedes all manifested, conditioned, being. This Infinite and Eternal Cause--dimly formulated in the "Unconscious" and "Unknowable"...is the rootless root of "all that was, is, or ever shall be." It is of course devoid of all attributes and is essentially without any relation to manifested, finite Being. It is "Be-ness" rather than Being (in Sanskrit, Sat), and is beyond all thought o= r speculation...Thus, then, the first fundamental axiom of the Secret Doctrin= e is this metaphysical ONE ABSOLUTE--BE-NESS--symbolized by finite intelligence as the theological trinity." S D I, p. 14 PARABRAHM - ONE REALITY - ABSOLUTE CONSCIOUSNESS "Parabrahm (the One Reality, the Absolute) is the field of Absolute Consciousness, i.e., that Essence which is out of all relation to conditioned existence, and of which conscious existence is a conditioned symbol. But once that we pass in thought from this (to us) Absolute Negation, duality supervenes in the contrast of Spirit (or consciousness) and Matter, Subject and Object. Spirit (or Consciousness) and Matter are, however, to be regarded, not as independent realities, but as the two facets or aspects of the Absolute (Parabrahm), which constitute the basis of conditioned Being whether subjective or objective...precosmic root-substance (Mulaprakriti) is that aspect of the Absolute which underlies all the objective planes of Nature. Just as pre-Cosmic Ideation is the root of all individual consciousness, so pre-Cosmic Substance is the substratum of matter in the various grades of its differentiation. Hence is will be apparent that the contrast of these two aspects of the Absolute is essential to the existence of the "Manifested Universe." Secret Doctrine I, p. 15 "Ever-Darkness means...the ever-unknowable mystery, behind the veil--in fac= t Parabrahm. Even the Logos can see only Mulaprakriti, it cannot see that which is beyond the veil. It is that which is the "Ever-unknowable Darkness."..."Ever- Darkness" is eternal, the Ray periodical. Having flashed out from this central point and thrilled through the Germ, the Ray is withdrawn again within this point and the Germ develops into the Second Logos, the triangle within the Mundane Egg." Trans. 84 PARANISHPANNA - PARAMARTHASATYA - PARANIRVANA " Paranishpanna, remember, is the summum bonum, the Absolute, hence the sam= e as Paranirvana. Besides being the final state it is that condition of subjectivity which has no relation to anything but the one absolute truth (Para-m=E2rthasatya) on its plane. It is that state which leads one to appreciate correctly the full meaning of Non-Being, which, as explained, is absolute Being. Sooner or later, all that now seemingly exists, will be in reality and actually in the state of Paranishpanna.=20=20 But there is a great difference between conscious and unconscious =93being.= =94 The condition of Paranishpanna, without Param=E2rtha, the Self-analysing consciousness (Svasamvedana), is no bliss, but simply extinction (for Seven Eternities).=20 Thus, an iron ball placed under the scorching rays of the sun will get heated through, but will not feel or appreciate the warmth, while a man will. It is only =93with a mind clear and undarkened by personality, and a= n assimilation of the merit of manifold existences devoted to being in its collectivity (the whole living and sentient Universe),=94 that one gets rid= of personal existence, merging into, becoming one with, the Absolute,* and continuing in full possession of Param=E2rtha." S D I, 53-54=20 ETERNAL DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS The Absolute is "the eternal divine Consciousness." Trans. 16 =09 "...the Absolute, which is to us, at our present stage of mental development, merely a logical speculation, though dating back to thousands and thousands of years." Trans. 21 =20 "The Absolute cannot be said to have a consciousness...such as we have here= . It has neither consciousness, nor desire, nor wish, nor thought, because it is absolute thought, absolute desire, absolute consciousness, absolute "all." Trans. 17 "How can the Absolute be said to feel ? The Absolute can have no condition nor attribute." Trans. 25 "The absoluteness of the all-containing One essence, has to manifest itself equally in rest and activity." Trans 11 SAT "Summary... (1.) The ABSOLUTE; the Parabrahm of the Vedantins or the one Reality, SAT, which is...both Absolute Being and Non-Being...The ONE REALITY; its dual aspects in the conditioned Universe." S D I p. 16 "...although the root of every atom individually and of every form collectively, is that 7th principle or the one Reality, still, in its manifested phenomenal and temporary appearance, it is no better than an evanescent illusion of our senses. In its absoluteness, the One Principle under its two aspects (of Parabrahm and Mulaprakriti) is sexless, unconditioned and eternal. Its periodical (manvantaric) emanation--or primal radiation--is also One, androgynous and phenomenally finite." S D I p. 18 SPACE "...the Arhat secret doctrine on cosmogony, admits but of one absolute, indestructible, eternal, and uncreated UNCONSCIOUSNESS...of an "element"...absolutely independent of everything else in the universe; a something ever present or ubiquitous, a Presence which ever was, is, and will be, whether there is a God, gods, or none; whether there is a univers= e or no universe; existing during the eternal cycles of the Maha Yugs, durin= g the Pralayas as during the periods of Manvantara: and this is SPACE, the field for the operation of the eternal Forces and natural Law, the basis...upon which take place the eternal intercorrelations of Akasa-Prakriti, guided by the unconscious regular pulsations of Sakti...the eternal energy of an eternal unconscious Law, say the Buddhists. Space then...the "Emptiness" is the nature of the Buddhist Absolute." HPB III 335 "Space exists where there is nothing else, and must so exist whether the Universe is one absolute vacuum or a full Plenum... Space is what the ancients called the One invisible and unknown (now unknowable) Deity. " Trans. 12 THAT - SVABHAVAT - BUDDHI "[THAT]...is the Vedantic Mulaprakriti, and the Svabhavat of the Buddhists, or that androgynous something ...which is both differentiated and undifferentiated. In its first principle it is a pure abstraction, which becomes differentiated only when it is transformed, in a process of time, into Prakriti. If compared with the human principles, it corresponds to Buddhi, while Atma would correspond to Parabrahm, Manas to Mahat, and so on." Trans. p. 4 [see S D II 596 ] ABSOLUTE -- SPACE -- BE-NESS "Be-ness"...Sat. It is not existence, for existence can only apply to phenomena, never to noumena ...Existence ...implies something having a beginning and an end. [ ex-istence cannot]...be applied to that which ever was, and of which it cannot be predicated that it ever issued from somethin= g else." Trans 17 "Be-ness" is not being, for it is equally non-being. We cannot conceive of it, for our intellects are finite and our language far more limited and conditioned even than our minds. How...can we express that which we can only conceive of by a series of negatives?" Trans p. 17 ["ever invisible robes"]...invisible to finite consciousness...Even for the Logos, Mulaprakriti is a veil, the Robes in which the Absolute is enveloped= . Even the Logos cannot perceive the Absolute, say the Vedantins." Trans. 5 TIME AND DURATION -- CAUSE "Duration is; it has neither beginning nor end. How can you call that which has neither beginning nor end, Time? Duration is beginningless and endless; Time is finite...Time can be divided; for as to Duration, it is impossible to divide it or set up landmarks therein. Duration with us is the one eternity, not relative, but absolute." Trans 11 "The causes of existence...refers to the last Manvantara, or age of Brahm= =E2, but the cause which makes the Wheel of Time and Space run into Eternity, which is out of Space and Time, has nothing to do with the finite causes or what we call the Nidanas... This one eternal causeless and therefore "causeless cause" is immutable and has nothing to do with the causes on any of the planes which are concerned with finite and conditioned being. The cause can therefore by no means be = a finite consciousness or desire.=20=20 It is an absurdity to postulate desire or necessity of the Absolute; the striking of a clock does not suggest the desire of the clock to strike...th= e Absolute containing both clock and Winder, once it is the Absolute; the only difference is that the former is would up in Space and Time and the latter out of Space and Time, that is to say, in Eternity...Parabrahm is no= t a cause, neither is there any cause that can compel it to emanate or create= . Strictly speaking, Parabrahm is not even the Absolute, but Absoluteness. Parabrahm is not a cause, but causality, or the propelling but not volitional power, in every manifesting Cause. We may have some hazy idea that there is such a thing as this eternal Causeless Cause or Causality. But to define it is impossible..." Trans. 40-1 "...Maya is the Cause, and at the same time an aspect, of differentiation...the Absolute can never be differentiated. Maya is a manifestation; the Absolute can have no manifestation, but only a reflection, a shadow which is radiated periodically from it--not by it." Trans. 30 Radiation is, so to say, the unconscious and spontaneous shooting forth, th= e action of a something from which this act takes place; but emanation is something from which another thing issues in a constant efflux, and emanate= s consciously. An orthodox Occultist goes so far as to say that the smell of = a flower emanates from it "consciously"=97absurd as it may seem to the profan= e. Radiation can come from the Absolute; Emanation cannot. One difference exists in the idea that Radiation is sure, sooner or later, to be withdrawn again while Emanation runs into other emanations and is thoroughly separate= d and=20 differentiated. Of course at the end of the cycle of time emanation will also be withdrawn into the One Absolute; but meanwhile, during the entire cycle of changes emanation will persist. One thing emanates from the other, and, in fact, from one point of view, emanation is equivalent to Evolution; while "radiation" represents to my mind=97in the precosmic period, of course=97an instantaneous action like that of a piece of paper set on fire under a burning glass, of which act the Sun knows nothing. Both terms, of course, are used for want of better. =93 TRANS . 93-4 LIGHT AND DARKNESS "Darkness has...to be read in a metaphorical sense. It is Darkness most unquestionably to our intellect, inasmuch as we can know nothing of it...neither Darkness or Light are to be used in the sense of opposites, as in the differentiated world.=20=20 Darkness is the term which will give rise to least misconceptions...light i= s the first potentiality awakening from its laya condition to become a potency; it is the first flutter in undifferentiated matter which throws i= t into objectivity and into a plane from which it will start manifestation." Trans. 42 "Darkness,"...in this instance, is that of which no attributes can be postulated; it is the Unknown Principle filling Cosmic Space...[darkness] is used in the sense of the Unmanifested and the Unknown as the opposite pole to manifestation, and that which falls under the possibility of speculation...The "Darkness" here meant can be opposed to neither Light nor Differentiation, as both are the legitimate effects of the Manvantaric evolution--the cycle of Activity. It is the "Darkness upon the face of the Deep," in Genesis: Deep being here "the bright son of the Dark Father"--Space." Trans. 35 "Ever-Darkness means...the ever-unknowable mystery, behind the veil--in fac= t Parabrahm. Even the Logos can see only Mulaprakriti, it cannot see that which is beyond the veil. It is that which is the "Ever-unknowable Darkness."..."Ever- Darkness" is eternal, the Ray periodical. Having flashed out from this central point and thrilled through the Germ, the Ray is withdrawn again within this point and the Germ develops into the Second Logos, the triangle within the Mundane Egg." Trans. 84 GREAT BREATH -- PULSATION "...in Pralaya too there is the "Great Breath"...for the "Great Breath" is ceaseless, and is...the universal and eternal perpetuum mobile...compared t= o the rhythmical motions of the Unconscious Ocean." Trans. 9-10 =93The First Stanza describes the state of the ONE ALL during Pralaya, befo= re the first flutter of re-awakening manifestation.=20 A moment's thought shows that such a state can only be symbolised; to describe it is impossible. Nor can it be symbolised except in negatives; for, since it is the state of Absoluteness per se, it can possess none of those specific attributes which serve us to describe objects in positive terms. Hence that state can only be suggested by the negatives of all those most abstract attributes which men feel rather than conceive, as the remotest limits attainable by their power of conception... (S D I 21) = =85 8. ALONE THE ONE FORM OF EXISTENCE STRETCHED BOUNDLESS, INFINITE, CAUSELESS= , IN DREAMLESS SLEEP; AND LIFE PULSATED UNCONSCIOUS IN UNIVERSAL SPACE, THROUGHOUT THAT ALL-PRESENCE WHICH IS SENSED BY THE OPENED EYE OF THE DANGMA.=20 9. BUT WHERE WAS THE DANGMA WHEN THE ALAYA OF THE UNIVERSE WAS IN PARAMARTH= A AND THE GREAT WHEEL WAS ANUPADAKA? =93 (S D I 27) ABSOLUTE DIVINE MIND -- CONSCIOUSNESS "...during Pralayas...there is nothing to receive and reflect the ideation of the Absolute Mind; therefore it is not. Everything outside the Absolut= e and immutable Sat (Be-ness), is necessarily finite and conditioned, since i= t has beginning and end... A distinction had to be made between the Absolute Mind, which is ever present, and its reflection and manifestation in the Ah-hi [Dhyan Chohans], who being on the highest plane, reflect the universal mind collectively at the first flutter of Manvantara.=20=20 After which they begin the work of evolution of all the lower forces throughout the seven planes, down to the lowest--our own. The Ah-hi are th= e primordial seven rays, or Logoi, emanated from the first Logos, triple, yet one in essence." Trans. 19-20 "Universal or Absolute Mind always is during Pralaya as well as Manvantara; it is immutable. The Ah-hi are the highest Dhyanis, the Logoi...During Pralaya there are no Ah-hi, because they come into being only with the firs= t radiation of the Universal Mind, which, per se, cannot be differentiated, and the radiation from which is the first dawn of Manvantara. The Absolute is dormant, latent mind, and cannot be otherwise in true metaphysical perception; it is only Its shadow which becomes differentiated in the collectivity of these Dhyanis...It is absolute consciousness eternally, which consciousness becomes relative consciousness periodically, at every "Manvantaric dawn." Trans. 20 "The Divine Mind is, and must be, before differentiation takes place. It i= s called the divine Ideation, which is eternal in its Potentiality and periodical in its Potency, when it becomes Mahat, Anima Mundi or Universal Soul." Trans. p. 4 =20 "...Mahat--the great Manvantaric Principle of Intelligence--acts as a Brain through which the Universal and Eternal Mind radiates the Ah-hi, representing the resultant Consciousness or ideation. As the shadow of thi= s primordial triangle falls lower and lower through the descending planes, it becomes with every stage more material." Trans. 28 "Apart from Cosmic Substance, Cosmic Ideation could not manifest as individual consciousness, since it is only through a vehicle of matter that consciousness wells up as "I am I," a physical basis being necessary to focus a ray of the Universal Mind at a certain stage of complexity.=20=20 Again, apart from Cosmic Ideation, Cosmic Substance would remain an empty abstraction, and no emergence of consciousness could ensue. The "manifeste= d Universe," therefore is pervaded by duality, which is, as it were, the very essence of its ex-istence as "manifestation."...subject and object, spirit and matter, are but aspects of the One Unity in which they are synthesized so, in the manifested Universe, there is "that" which links spirit to matter, subject to object...Fohat...is thus the dynamic energy of Cosmic Ideation...the intelligent medium, the guiding power of all manifestation, the "Thought Divine" transmitted and made manifest through the Dhyan Chohans, the Architects of the visible World. Thus from Spirit, or Cosmic Ideation, comes our consciousness; from Cosmic Substance the several vehicles in which that consciousness is individualized and attains to self--or reflective--consciousness; while Fohat, in its various manifestations, is the mysterious link between Mind and Matter, the animating principle electrifying every atom to life." S D I 15-16 COSMIC MIND [ IN MANIFESTATION ] "...cosmic mind appears at the third stage, or degree, and is confined or limited to the manifested universe...Cosmic Mind is Mahat, or divine ideation in active (creative) operation, and thus only the periodical manifestation in time and in actu, of the Eternal Universal Mind--in potentia.=20=20 In strict truth, Universal Mind, being only another name for the Absolute, out of time and space, this Cosmic Ideation, or Mind, is not an evolution a= t all (least of all a :creation"), but simply one of the aspects of the forme= r [ABSOLUTE], which knows no change, which ever was, which is, and will be...Universal Mind is not the same thing [as Cosmic Mind], as no conditioned and relative act can be predicted of that which is Absolute. Universal ideation was as soon as the Ah-hi appeared, and continues throughout the Manvantara."=20=20 [The Ah-hi] belong to the first, second, and third planes--the last plane being really the starting point of the primordial manifestation--the objective reflection of the unmanifested. Like the Pythagorean Monas, the first Logos, having emanated the first triad, disappears into silence and darkness." Trans. 23 "The "Ah-hi" pass through all the planes, beginning to manifest on the third. Like other Hierarchies, on the highest plane they are arupa, i.e., formless, bodiless, without any substance, mere breaths. On the second plane, they first approach to Rupa, or form. On the third, they become Manasa-putras, those who become incarnated in man. With every plane they reach they are called by different names--there is a continual differentiation of their original homogeneous substance; we call it a substance, although in reality it is no substance of which we can conceive. Later they become Rupa--ethereal forms." Trans. 24 "It is most misleading to apply mechanical laws to the higher metaphysics o= f cosmogony, or to space and time, as we know them, for neither existed then. The reflection of the triad in space and time, or the objective universe, comes later." Trans. 23 "...Mahat--the great Manvantaric Principle of Intelligence--acts as a Brain through which the Universal and Eternal Mind radiates the Ah-hi, representing the resultant Consciousness or ideation. As the shadow of thi= s primordial triangle falls lower and lower through the descending planes, it becomes with every stage more material." Trans. 28 MAN -- HUMANITY -- FREE-WILL "Every living creature, of whatever description, was, is, or will become a human being in one or another Manvantara." Trans. 23 "Free will can only exist in a Man who has both mind and consciousness, which act and make him perceive things both within and without himself." Trans. 25 "...our Ego is a ray of the Universal Mind, individualized for the space of a cosmic life-cycle, during which space of time it gets experience in almos= t numberless reincarnations or rebirths, after which it returns to its Parent-Source.=20=20 The Occultist would call the "Higher Ego" the immortal Entity, whose shadow and reflection is the human Manas, the mind limited by its physical senses. The two may be well compared to the Master-artist and the pupil-musician...In the course of natural evolution our "brain-mind" will b= e replaced by a finer organism, and helped by the 6th [Buddhi] and the 7th [Atma] senses..." Theos. Articles & Notes, p. 208 MANIFESTATION -- RADIATION -- EMANATION "Are not the prismatic rays fundamentally one single white ray? From the one they become three; from the three, seven; from which seven primaries they fall into infinitude. Referring back to the so-called "consciousness" of the Ah-hi, that consciousness cannot be judged by the standard of human perceptions. It is on quite another plane. [Example] ...often the reasonin= g faculty of the higher mind may be asleep, and the instinctual mind be fully awake." Trans. 26-7 "...Maya is the Cause, and at the same time an aspect, of differentiation...the Absolute can never be differentiated. Maya is a manifestation; the Absolute can have no manifestation, but only a reflection, a shadow which is radiated periodically from it--not by it." Trans. 30 "In all cosmogonies the first differentiation was considered feminine. It is mulaprakriti which conceals or veils Parabrahm; Sephira the light that emanates first from Ain-Soph; and in Hesiod it is Gaea who springs from chaos, preceding Eros...It is the goddess and goddesses who come first. Th= e first emanation becomes the immaculate Mother from whom proceeds all the gods, or the anthropomorphized creative forces...From IT, strictly speaking= , nothing can proceed, neither a radiation nor an emanation...The IT is...Parabrahm...the "unknowable"...The space of which we speak is the female aspect of Brahm=E2, the male. At the first flutter of differentiati= on, the Subjective proceeds to emanate, or fall, like a shadow into the Objective, and becomes what was called the Mother Goddess, from whom proceeds the Logos, the Son and Father God at the same time, both manifested, one the Potentiality, the other the Potency. But the former must not be confounded with the manifested Logos, also called the "Son" in all cosmogonies...Mulaprakriti means the Root of Nature or Matter...Parabrahm cannot be called the "Root," for it is the absolute Rootless Root of all." Trans. 2-3 "Radiation" and "Emanation"...express two entirely different ideas, and are at best apologies for the original terms that could be found; but it the ordinary meanings are attached to them the idea will be missed. Radiation is...the unconscious and spontaneous shooting forth, the action of a something from which this act takes place; but emanation is something from which another thing issues in a constant efflux, and emanates consciously...Radiation can come from the Absolute; Emanation cannot. One difference exists in the idea that Radiation is sure, sooner or later, to b= e withdrawn again, while Emanation runs into other emanations and is thoroughly separated and differentiated. Of course at the end of the cycle of time emanation will also be withdrawn into the One Absolute, but meanwhile, during the entire cycle of changes emanation will persist. One thing emanates from the other, and, in fact, from one point of view, emanation is equivalent to Evolution; while "radiation" represents...--in the cosmic period...--an instantaneous action like that of a piece of paper set on fire under a burning glass, of which act the Sun knows nothing." Trans. 94-5 [ see SD I 64; II 572; HPB Art III 334-5; Glos 113 ]=09 =09 ---------------------------------------------------- Best wishes,=20=20 Dallas =20 -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Schueler [mailto:gschueler@earthlink.net]=20 Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 11:44 AM To: Theosophy Study List Subject: Paranirvana and the Absolute On pages 53-54 of the Secret Doctrine, Blavatskt makes some very interesting comments in regards to the absolute (paramartha). She says,=20 " Paranishpanna, remember, is the summum bonum, the Absolute, hence the same as Paranirvana. ...It is only =93with a mind clear and undarkened by personality, and an assimilation of the merit of manifold existences devoted to being in its collectivity (the whole living and sentient Universe),=94 that one gets rid of personal existence, merging into, becoming one with, the Absolute,* and continuing in full possession of Param=E2rtha." Here and throughout her writings she tranlstes paramartha as "absolute" usually capitalizing it, giving Absolute, but sometimes using all caps as in ABSOLUTE, to distinguish it from what we normally think of by that word. Today most translators translate paramartha as "ultimate" as in "ultimate reality" which together with conditional reality comprises all of existence (bhava) as we know it. The Absolute in paranirvana is above or beyond our normal consciousnesses including that of the alayavijnana. She tells us that paranirvana, or the mental state of a buddha which is "beyond nirvana." is the highest plane of subjectivity where we experience "the one absolute truth (Para-m=E2rthasatya)." Technically her Sanskrit her= e should be paramartha-satya, but she is deliberately emphasizing the "para" aspect, or that which lies beyond conditional reality as we generally experience it. In this high state or plane, we experience "non-being" as if it was "absolute being."=20=20=20=20 She also distinguishes between two types of formless states; one in which there is self-consciousness, and therefore bliss, and one in which there is unconsciousness, which is experienced as a temporary extinction or cessation. In both cases there is a loss of ego or personality. But in the former case there is "the Self-analysing consciousness (Svasamvedana)."=20 Note that she capitalizes Self to distinguish it from the way we normally think of that word. With the above in mind, this spiritual subjective state or experience of paranirvana is what I have called the I's experience in the I-Not-I Monad. At this point, the I or paramatman just begins to differentiate itself from its Not-I, and lacks the detailed definitions that exist on the lower planes. At this stage, the I and Not-I are very similar, and the I that perceives its Not-I here is like looking into a mirror and seeing one's own reflection. In order to experience this state in mediation, "one gets rid of personal existence." Personal existence comes from the atma, the principle of selfhood, and this is on a lower plane and so has been "gotten rid of" or transcended in this state of paranirvana. In a sense, paramatman is experienced when atma is transcendenced in exactly the same way that nirvana is transcended in paranirvana. =20=20 Now, lets see how Tzongkhapa (or Tsongkhapa or Tzong-kha-pa) views this same experience. First of all, he rejected both the alayavijnana, or storehouse consciousness, and the svasamvedana, the self-cognizing apperceptive faculty of consciousness. He considered neither is these to be necessary and so refused to give them even a conditional reality. On the other hand, he accepted conditional reality and karma. He also accepted both the dependent arising and cessation of emperical things as conditioned phenomena. He understood svabhava, or essential nature, today often translated as intrinsic existence, and sunyata or emptiness, as two poles of a duality.=20 Tzongkhapa distingushed two kinds of analysis. There is a conventional analysis and an ultimate analysis. Conventional analysis is when we carefully distinguish between conditional reality and imputational reality. Ultimate analysis is when we distinguish between conditional reality and ultimate reality. To some extent, we all use conventioanl analysis in our everyday lives. Ultimate analysis uses what is called the four-cornered argument or tetralemma. In it, an entity or thing possessing svabhava cannot be said to exist in four ways: (1) as existing (2) as not existing (3) as both existing and not existing (4) as neither existing nor not existing. Since these four lemmas address all possibilities, the object under analysis cannot be said to exist or not exist or both or neither. The result is what is defined as a middle way position, the view of the Madhymika or Middle Way School. Those who see things as existing are called essentialists. Those who see things as not existing are called nihilists. Tzongkhapa defined his middle way position as neither of these two extremes. In other words, things may exist imputationally but not conditionally, or they may exist conditionally but not ultimately. Tzongkhapa then concluded that there are two distinct meanings to the word bhava, a Sanskrit word for entity or existing thing. When bhava refers to an intrinsically existing thing, it can be rejected by using both conventional and ultimate analyses. However, in the sense of a conditioned being or functional thing (a svabhava that does something) it cannot be rejected by conventional analysis. Furthermore, a non-existing thing like space (abhava) also cannot be rejected by conventional analysis. The logical fallout from this is that we have both conditional and ultimate realities. In order to avoid being labled a nihilist, Tzongkhapa accepted conditional reality with the understanding that it does not exist from its own side, so to speak, meaning not instrinsically or permanently. Using Tzongkhapa's view together with Blavatsky's and my own terminology, we can conclude that the nondual indivisible Monad in Beness has an ultimate reality, and is permanent. The I that observes a Not-I, even at the most highest level or plane such as paranirvana has a conditional reality and is therefore temporary.=20 As an Aside here, the Ningma Master, Je Mipham (1846-1912), a contemporary of Blavatsky and a critic of Tzongkhapa, wrote in favor of viewing both the alayavijnana and svasamvedana as conditional realities.=20 Jerry S. From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Fri Aug 05 06:36:13 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: anandgholap@anandgholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44711 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2005 13:36:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2005 13:36:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smx3.net4india.com) (202.71.129.73) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 2005 13:36:12 -0000 Received: from [203.187.209.72] (helo=anand) by smx3.net4india.com with smtp (Exim 4.51) id 1E12QG-00022A-0X for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 19:09:40 +0530 Message-ID: <006101c599c2$a1ca6bf0$5667fea9@anand> To: Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 19:05:35 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Originating-IP: 202.71.129.73 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Buddhic Consciousness (AnandGholap.Net-Online Theosophy) X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566; y=VYz4nvq8A0u-UxX-Uibb06mV3Ou89nT7oyGUp5Itxn1ixnu2Zd67vuE X-Yahoo-Profile: anandgholap_net [ www.AnandGholap.net - Online Books on Theosophy ] "No one has reached the stage where he is responsive to the great cry of pain, spoken of in The Voice of the Silence, unless his motive in life is to help humanity whether the suffering be before his eyes or not, for that is the real motive-power of a disciple. The best way to get rid of personality, to grow indifferent to one's own personal joys and sorrows, to become incapable of tears, is to let the mind think upon the sorrow of the world and the ways of helping it; that causes the personal self to be seen in. its true place beside the larger self of the great orphan humanity. 22 When the disciple passes through Initiation and begins to develop the buddhic consciousness, this incapacity for tears takes on a new character. He then begins to understand the word evolution, to realize that in man it means the unfoldment of the higher triad; then he begins to see the real use and object of all the suffering and pain. He gradually becomes incapable of tears because he understands the value of the suffering to those who are undergoing it, because he sees that when pain comes to a man it does so as an absolute necessity for the higher development of his soul. It is true that theoretically the man might have avoided that suffering if he had acted wisely in the past, for it is the result of his past karma when it is not produced by his present follies; but the practical aspect of the matter is that the man has been foolish, has elected to learn through this kind of experience instead of through wisdom, because he has not always chosen to follow the best he knew, and now he is suffering, and the pain is bringing him wisdom for the future, and is thereby promoting his evolution. Realizing this, the disciple reaches a condition in which he may be described as full of the most perfect sympathy but without regret. The sense of regret comes in only when the consciousness is unillumined by the buddhic life. When the buddhic consciousness is felt, the disciple's sympathy increases enormously, but his regret disappears, and as he rises higher this wider view makes him incapable of-tears, because in the face of the bitterest suffering to which he is learning to respond and 23 to feel in himself, he feels also its object and end. He can share in the suffering to the full, but without the slightest wish that it should be anything other than it is. The absence of any wish to get rid of the suffering before it has done its work, can only exist when the consciousness has buddhic illumination. That is the condition which has been described as the Christ state. The law is good and the will of the Supreme is perfect, and the suffering works for a perfect end; therefore the disciple is filled with content and satisfaction; he feels the suffering, but of grief and sorrow he feels none at all. " Complete book can be read at http://anandgholap.net/Light_On_Path-Commentary-AB_CWL.htm From Nisk98114@aol.com Fri Aug 05 09:06:49 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 81031 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2005 16:06:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2005 16:06:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m25.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.6) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 2005 16:06:46 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-m25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r4.1.) id r.205.720d9a3 (4560) for ; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:06:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <205.720d9a3.3024e891@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:06:41 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10712 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 64.12.137.6 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Nisk98114@aol.com Subject: Hiroshima Spirits, Nagasaki Voices X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Published on Thursday, August 4, 2005 by CommonDreams.org=20=20 Hiroshima Spirits, Nagasaki Voices: Learning from the First Ground Zeroes =20 by Walter W. Enloe and David B. Willis=20=20 =20=20 =E2=80=9CThe flash of light. The flash of light was like nothing I had eve= r seen=20 before. Or since.=E2=80=9D - Survivor of Hiroshima, July 2005=20 August 6 and August 9 are the 60th anniversaries of Hiroshima and Nagasaki,= =20 the first and so far only nuclear catastrophes ever visited upon humankind.= As=20 with other anniversaries it is now time for reflection, in the cases of=20 Hiroshima and Nagasaki especially so, as these two bombings and their after= math,=20 though with enormously devastating possible consequences for the entire wor= ld,=20 seem to be fading from our collective memory, will, and consciousness.=20 On the one hand, the past century has seen a great deal of human=20 introspection and understanding. Our biological, social, and human sciences= - from genetics=20 to developmental psychology and from narrative to cross cultural studies-=20 have allowed us to construct an understanding of ourselves, from the inner= =20 particles of a molecule to the outer edges of our universe.=20 We can alter genetic material to constitute new life structures, and we can= =20 construct communicative forms from novels to films to musical scores that c= an=20 be reconstituted, sent around the world at lightning speed, and valued by=20 others. Through an image of Earth as seen from the moon to planetary satell= ites,=20 global communication, and economic interdependencies, and through organizat= ions=20 like the United Nations and our Universal Declaration of Human Rights, we h= ave=20 a greater sense of the interconnectedness of the world=E2=80=99s people and= places.=20 On the other hand, this past century has been a time of unprecedented death= =20 and misery, a century of human destruction and environmental degradation=20 unparalleled in scope in human history. Through two world wars, and continu= ing=20 ethnic, religious, and sociopolitical conflicts, a hundred million noncomba= tants,=20 including millions and millions of children, have been murdered in the last= =20 hundred years. Add to these innocent dead the millions of combatants who di= ed or=20 were grievously wounded in body or soul.=20 And what of the hundreds of millions who died of poverty and preventable=20 disease years before their natural passing time? Many thousands die yearly = from=20 violence in our own local cities and neighborhoods and we are increasingly= =20 distancing ourselves from each other. In our own backyards and streets as w= e build=20 various walls of separation through fear and intolerance. We must acknowled= ge=20 that the Earth has been a global killing field.=20 These are difficult days, indeed, perhaps especially so for Americans. An=20 increasing concern regarding the war in Iraq, the war on terror, environmen= tal=20 destruction, greed and materialism are rampant. What are we to do?=20 Many of us are shaken by the world we have created or have allowed to be=20 created for ourselves and our children and their future. Today too often we= feel=20 threatened and vulnerable. None of us is immune to violence and the threat = of=20 violence. We have allowed locally and globally an ethos of human violence t= hat=20 either we do not have the collective will to stop or we do not know how to= =20 stop. After the intentional and systematic destruction of innocent people=20 beginning with Guernica, Auschwitz, Rwanda, New York on 9-11, and most rece= ntly=20 school children in Russia and babies in Darfur and Iraq, the very idea of h= uman=20 extinction makes all of us, whether we have children or not, parents of the= next=20 generation. This generation holds the power and the choice in the=20 post-Nagasaki age regarding annihilation. Each subsequent generation is the= reby indebted=20 to the past generation for having allowed them to exist.=20 We need to invoke a healing image and call to active citizenship for this=20 post-Nagasaki age. Following Jonathan Schell, we can advocate the concept o= f =E2=80=9C universal parenthood,=E2=80=9D the idea that all of us are responsible for = our fellow=20 humans. What better way to respond to these crushing burdens than to recogn= ize=20 and act upon the appeal of every living Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and the= =20 United Nations General Assembly, who declared the period 2001-2010 as =E2= =80=9CThe decade=20 to create a culture of peace and nonviolence for the children of the world,= =E2=80=9D=20 asking that all nations and communities teach conflict resolution, peace-ma= king,=20 nonviolence, and active citizenship in their schools, neighborhoods and=20 workplaces.=20 These Nobel Laureates and the UN General Assembly called for us to work=20 purposefully, individually and collaboratively, to overcome apathy, indiffe= rence,=20 and even opposition toward initiating and sustaining such an effort. Where= =20 better to start in 2005 than with a reflection on these first Ground Zeroes= ? On=20 the occasions of the 50th commemoration of the nuclear bombings of Hiroshim= a and=20 Nagasaki, ending World War II, an eyewitness noted, =E2=80=9CAt Hiroshima, = there was=20 much bitterness=E2=80=A6 it was very political=E2=80=A6the symbol could be = a fist raised in=20 anger. At Nagasaki, there was sadness, but also tranquility, reflection. It= was=20 not political. We prayed. We do not blame the United States; rather we wept= =20 over the sin of war, and more particularly, nuclear war. The symbol: hands= =20 joined in prayer.=E2=80=9D=20 We too must join hands today, not only in informing the world of the horror= s=20 of weapons of mass destruction, but also in solving the human problems grea= tly=20 threatening world peace; the lack of fundamental human rights and freedoms,= =20 environmental destruction, poverty and the preventable deaths of young=20 children. It is the right thing to do.=20 An unprecedented opportunity is developing slowly across the planet which=20 provides hope for the future. It is a call to us to build a world based on= =20 tolerance, justice, and respect for all members of the human family, includ= ing those=20 global extremists who wish our demise. We need to do all the good we can fo= r=20 all the people we can in all the ways we can, for as Mahatma Gandhi=20 understood: =E2=80=9CIf we (humans) are to reach real peace in this world, = and if we (adults)=20 are to carry on a real war against war, we (adults) shall have to begin wit= h the=20 children.=E2=80=9D=20 Walter Enloe is a teacher of graduate education at Hamline University in St= .=20 Paul. He lived in Japan from the age of 12 and from 1980 to 1988 he was=20 headmaster of Hiroshima International School. David B. Willis teaches cultu= ral=20 studies at Soai University in Osaka, Japan, where he has lived and worked f= or 27=20 years, and is active in peace and justice movements in Japan, India, and th= e=20 United States.=20 =20 =20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From auspirograph@yahoo.com Sat Aug 06 08:42:14 2005 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4351 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2005 15:42:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Aug 2005 15:42:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.201.60) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2005 15:42:13 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.65] by n7.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Aug 2005 15:41:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by mailer2.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Aug 2005 15:41:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.90] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Aug 2005 15:41:25 -0000 X-Sender: auspirograph@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54694 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2005 06:53:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Aug 2005 06:53:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.43) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2005 06:53:54 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n9.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Aug 2005 06:53:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.87] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Aug 2005 06:53:54 -0000 Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 06:53:54 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 304 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.43 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 144.138.3.70 From: "Spiro" Subject: The Trouble in Paris - Historic Question X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=123058641; y=wISXYl1eIijyM-Cei_jWnZuG4HvH7-lVnirPl9DD1gFcA7fX5z5y X-Yahoo-Profile: auspirograph X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 06 Aug 2005 15:41:24 -0000 Hi all, In a letter by HPB around 1888-1889 (can't remember which), she mentions some problems with the Paris branch of the Theosophical Society. I've tried to search for this background but have drawn a blank. Does anyone know or can direct me towards some reading material/link please. Thanks Spiro From icecoast@mail.ru Sun Aug 07 03:38:18 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: icecoast@mail.ru X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44227 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2005 10:38:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Aug 2005 10:38:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO f17.mail.ru) (194.67.57.47) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Aug 2005 10:38:16 -0000 Received: from mail by f17.mail.ru with local id 1E1iXk-000Ie9-00; Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:38:12 +0400 Received: from [213.158.27.195] by win.mail.ru with HTTP; Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:38:12 +0400 To: eldon@theosophy.com Cc: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: mPOP Web-Mail 2.19 Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:38:12 +0400 Message-Id: X-Originating-IP: 194.67.57.47 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:5:0 From: =CF=D4=D0=D2=C1=D7=C9=D4=C5=CC=D8?= Reply-To: =CF=D4=D0=D2=C1=D7=C9=D4=C5=CC=D8?= Subject: Letter to Eldon Tucker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=213852332; y=jEbqUEVWgF_0PdAN2UmkWDD4Qsr-tOjjZXkMU5E72KBh7TIg1QzL X-Yahoo-Profile: leonid_stone Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry for russian language. You will need an intepreter to read it. I made a JPEG copy of WORD DOCUMENT in case your PC hasn't russian alphabet. Letter to Eldon Tucker.rtf - main letter. Letter to Eldon Tucker.jpeg - the copy. Very important. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From forums@sova.us Sun Aug 07 09:24:19 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: forums@sova.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 93215 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2005 16:24:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Aug 2005 16:24:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO relay02.infobox.ru) (195.208.235.29) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Aug 2005 16:24:18 -0000 Received: from ppp85-140-125-144.pppoe.mtu-net.ru (ppp85-140-125-144.pppoe.mtu-net.ru [85.140.125.144]) by relay02.infobox.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC8EAF00DED8 for ; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 20:14:39 +0400 (MSD) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 20:14:25 +0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <95894865.20050807201425@sova.us> To: =?windows-1251?Q?=EE=F2=EF=F0=E0=E2=E8=F2=E5=EB=FC?= In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: 195.208.235.29 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:12:4 From: Vladimir Reply-To: Vladimir Subject: Re: Theos-World Letter to Eldon Tucker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=209526132; y=xF0ILGBtkSpF4AzDYzWiWwO4jx-l1fS87xj6i-jjqer1lPM X-Yahoo-Profile: sova7777 Even if it was something very important, it has been mercilessly cut out by Yahoo. See the quotation below. Sunday, August 7, 2005, 2:38:12 PM, =EE=F2=EF=F0=E0=E2=E8=F2=E5=EB=FC wrote= : > Sorry for russian language. You will need an intepreter to read it.=20 > I made a JPEG copy of WORD DOCUMENT in case your PC hasn't russian alph= abet. > Letter to Eldon Tucker.rtf - main letter. > Letter to Eldon Tucker.jpeg - the copy. > Very important. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Aug 07 13:59:12 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 10970 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2005 20:59:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Aug 2005 20:59:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web33404.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.206.136) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Aug 2005 20:59:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 87851 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Aug 2005 20:59:04 -0000 Message-ID: <20050807205904.87849.qmail@web33404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.21.100] by web33404.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 07 Aug 2005 13:59:04 PDT Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 13:59:04 -0700 (PDT) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: 68.142.206.136 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "D. Caldwell" Subject: EXPLORING THE UNKNOWN: Overviews, Introductions & Surveys X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=LbqBUPDiAXmmZmULUNisBXUrmIxM3SiOmjPGPSzCPQs5hwFu_XjWNWxM X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell EXPLORING THE UNKNOWN: Overviews, Introductions & Surveys of Occult, Esoteric, New Age, Mythic, Religious, Paranormal, Spiritual, Metaphysical, & Mystical Subjects Students of Blavatsky and Theosophy may find the following recommended titles helpful in giving needed background information to the Theosophical teachings. The 16 titles in this list constitute a core library of works that students/study groups/and libaries may want to acquire for study and reference. See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/exploring/exploringunknown1.htm See also recommended titles on other subjects at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/index.htm#bookstore Daniel Blavatsky Study Center Blavatsky Bookstore http://blavatskyarchives.com thls othls ltls From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Aug 07 18:09:03 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72269 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2005 01:09:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Aug 2005 01:09:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.64) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Aug 2005 01:09:00 -0000 Received: from [209.179.153.13] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E1w86-0003yt-OU; Sun, 07 Aug 2005 21:08:44 -0400 To: Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 18:08:28 -0700 Message-ID: <000401c59bb5$b4cb37d0$0d99b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7947cef98ef1c87d30e80652c168034863350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.64 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE: MEDITATION X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=ojwepIwByzk2KQyybZpK-1qGAlKPVdEQkGq6rf1uD0ju1w X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aug 7 2005 Dear Gopi: If Sturdy recorded it, it was information to a special group around HPB and he may have not recorded it accurately as she might have if she had corrected it. So be ware. The notes made by several members of a special group around HPB have been published - more or less accurately. Further as those were to be kept confidential I personally observe those wishes and do not discuss them should I come across them. In general I would say that there are very few of us who can aspire to a good understanding and application of the ethics and morals which a knowledge of the fundamental laws and rules of the Universe require. I am sure we may come close. But that does not give us the right or the responsibility to try and interpret them to others. I notice that HPB, writing on "authority," declares that any writing on the matters of occult significance become "exoteric" the moment they are published. Hence, they begin to undergo changes (under the rules of maya). This is inevitable, and hence she declared that, at best, all such important writings tended to APPROACH to the TRUTH, and not: to BE THE TRUTH. It is for this reason that I use quotations from the "original literature" whenever possible. I believe it is better to do so, because my own biases and filters are Inevitably included in what I write. I try to open doors and windows on to the verities that are seen by all, and to some extent may be grasped by all individually, and I hope that others, reading, will begin their own independent thinking and study. The "Path" to the ETERNAL has to be independently worked out by each devotee. In the matter of mediation, Let me offer from HPB the following: ----------------------------------- BROTHERHOOD THE KEY TO "PERFECTION".DOC ============================================ BROTHERHOOD THE KEY TO "PERFECTION" By H. P. Blavatsky Now it is a fundamental doctrine of Theosophy that the "separateness" which we feel between ourselves and the world of living beings around us is an illusion, not a reality. In very deed and truth, all men are one, not in a feeling of sentimental gush and hysterical enthusiasm, but in sober earnest. As all Eastern philosophy teaches, there is but ONE SELF in all the infinite Universe, and what we men call "self" is but the illusionary reflection of the ONE SELF in the heaving waters of earth. True Occultism is the destruction of the false idea of Self, and therefore true spiritual perfection and knowledge are nothing else but the complete identification of our finite "selves" with the Great All. It follows, therefore, that no spiritual progress at all is possible except by and through the bulk of Humanity. It is only when the whole of Humanity has attained happiness that the individual can hope to become permanently happy -- for the individual is an inseparable part of the Whole. Hence there is no contradiction whatever between the altruistic maxims of Theosophy and its injunction to kill out all desire for material things, to strive after spiritual perfection. For spiritual perfection and spiritual knowledge can only be reached on the spiritual plane; in other words, only in that state in which all sense of separateness, all selfishness, all feeling of personal interest and desire, has been merged in the wider consciousness of the unity of Mankind. This shows also that no blind submission to the commands of another can be demanded, or would be of any use. Each individual must learn for himself, through trial and suffering, to discriminate what is beneficial to Humanity; and in proportion as he develops spiritually, i.e., conquers all selfishness, his mind will open to receive the guidance of the Divine Monad within him, his Higher Self, for which there is neither Past nor Future, but only an eternal NOW. Again, were there no "poor," far from the "benefits of civilization being lost," a state of the highest culture and civilization would be attained, of which we cannot now form the faintest conception. Similarly, from a conviction of the impermanence of material happiness would result a striving after that joy which is eternal, and in which all men can share. Throughout the whole letter of our esteemed correspondent there runs the tacit assumption that happiness in material, physical life is all-important; which is untrue. So far from being the most important, happiness in this life of matter is of as little importance in relation to the bliss of true spiritual life as are the few years of each human cycle on earth in proportion to the millions and millions of years which each human being spends in the subjective spheres, during the course of every great cycle of the activity of our globe. With regard to faculties and talents, the answer is simple. They should be developed and cultivated for the service of Humanity, of which we are all parts, and to which we owe our full and ungrudging service. Blavatsky Collected Writings, Vol. 11: Pp. 104-6 THEOSOPHICAL QUERIES: ANSWER TO A LETTER --------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope this will help, Best wishes, Dallas ======================== -----Original Message----- From: Gopi Chari [mailto:ekcvv@juno.com] Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 9:52 AM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] RE: MEDITATION Hi Dallas & Isabel, I have misled you, it is called "Diagram of Meditation" and is recorded by E.T. Sturdy, one of the members of her Inner Group. There are hundreds of references to the diagram on Internet. For me, that Diagram is the ultimate definition of Meditation. It has all the teachings of Samadhi in it and is given in a practicable manner. I make a presentation of the chart at least once a year at some place or other. I also believe it is published in Theosophist or some other magazine. You can see this was one of her final teachings! Gopi --- Distributed by Blavatsky Net P.O. Box 749 Dover Plains NY 12522 USA You are currently subscribed to bn-study as: [dalval14@earthlink.net] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-study-7560482L@lists.lyris.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Aug 07 23:31:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31338 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2005 06:31:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Aug 2005 06:31:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web30115.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.201.223) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Aug 2005 06:31:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 75236 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Aug 2005 06:31:20 -0000 Message-ID: <20050808063120.75234.qmail@web30115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.113] by web30115.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 07 Aug 2005 23:31:20 PDT Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 23:31:20 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 68.142.201.223 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Velikovksy's Science X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=qxUb1EHKz6Ak_ua1EUNUH3eydU3_Jy8ZO_zuepvlDnE7cexWRQ X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Prediction in Science=20 In order to bring into proper focus the significance of correct prediction = in science, I offer at the start a short survey of the most celebrated case= s, and it is not by chance that almost all of them come from the domain of = astronomy. These cases are spectacular and, with one or two exceptions, are= well known. The story of scientific =93clairvoyance=94 in modern astronomy starts with = Johannes Kepler, a strange case and little known. When Galileo, using the t= elescope he had built after the model of an instrument invented by a Danish= craftsman, discovered the satellites circling Jupiter, Kepler became very = eager to see the satellites himself and begged in letters to have an instru= ment sent to Prague; Galileo did not even answer him. Next, Galileo made tw= o more discoveries, but before publishing them in a book, he assured himsel= f of priority by composing cryptograms, not an uncommon procedure in those = days: statements written in Latin were deliberately reduced to the letters = of which the sentences were composed, or, if the author of the cryptogram s= o wished, the letters were re-assembled to make a different sentence. The s= econd way was chosen by Galileo when he thought he had discovered that Satu= rn is =93a triple=94 planet, having observed appendices on both sides of Sa= turn, but not having discerned that they were but a ring around the planet, a discovery reserved for Chri= stian Huygens in 1659, half a century later. Kepler tried to read the crypt= ogram of letters recombined into a non-revealing sentence, but did not succ= eed. He offered as his solution: =93Salute, fiery twin, offspring of Mars= =94 (=93Salve, umbistineum geminatum Martia proles=94 ). Of this, Arthur Ko= estler in The Sleepwalkers (1959) wrote (p. 377): =93He [Kepler] accordingl= y believed that Galileo had discovered two moons around Mars.=94 But Galile= o did not discover them and they remained undiscovered for more than two hu= ndred fifty years. Strangely, Koestler passes over the incident without exp= ressing wonder at Kepler=92s seeming prescience. As I have shown in Worlds in Collision (=93The Steeds of Mars=94 ) the poet= s Homer and Virgil knew of the trabants of Mars, visualized as his steeds, = named Deimos (Terror) and Phobos (Rout). Kepler referred to the satellites = of Mars as being =93burning=94 or =93flaming=94 , the same way the ancients= had referred to the steeds of Mars. Ancient lore preserved traditions from the time when Mars, Ares of the Gree= ks, was followed and preceded by swiftly circling satellites with their bla= zing manes. =93When Mars was very close to the earth, its two trabants were= visible. They rushed in front of and around Mars; in the disturbances that= took place, they probably snatched some of Mars=92 atmosphere, dispersed a= s it was, and appeared with gleaming manes=94 (Worlds in Collision, p. 230)= . Next, Galileo made the discovery that Venus shows phases, as the Moon does.= This time he secured his secret by locking it in a cryptogram of a mere co= llection of letters=97so many A=92s, so many B=92s, and so on. Kepler again= tried to read the cryptogram and came up with the sentence: =93Macula rufa= in Jove est gyratur mathem etc.=94 which in translation reads: =93There is= a red spot in Jupiter which rotates mathematically.=94 The wondrous thing is: how could Kepler have known of the red spot in Jupit= er, then not yet discovered? It was discovered by J. D. Cassini in the 1660= =92s, after the time of Kepler and Galileo. Kepler=92s assumption that Gali= leo had discovered a red spot in Jupiter amazes and defies every statistica= l chance of being a mere guess. But the possibility is not excluded that Ke= pler found the information in some Arab author or some other source, possib= ly of Babylonian or Chinese origin. Kepler did not disclose what the basis = of his reference to the red spot of Jupiter was =97 he could not have arriv= ed at it either by logic and deduction or by sheer guesswork. A scientific = prediction must follow from a theory as a logical consequence. Kepler had n= o theory on that. It is asserted that the Chinese observed solar spots many= centuries before Galileo did with his telescope. Observing solar spots, th= e ancients could have conceivably observed the Jovian red spot, too. Jesuit= scholars traveled in the early 17th century to China to study Chinese achievements in astronomy. Kepler was well versed in ancient writings, also knowledgeable in medieval = Arab authors; for instance, he quoted Arzachel to support the view that in = ancient times Babylon must have been situated two and a half degrees more t= o the north, and this on the basis of the data on the duration of the longe= st and shortest days in the year as registered in ancient Babylon.1=20 Jonathan Swift, in his Gulliver=92s Travels (1726) tells of the astronomers= of the imaginary land of the Laputans who asserted they had discovered tha= t the planet Mars has =93two lesser stars, or satellites, which revolve abo= ut Mars, whereof the innermost is distant from the center of the primary pl= anet exactly three of [its] diameters, and the outermost Five; the former r= evolves in the space of ten hours, and the latter in twenty-one-and-a-half;= so that the squares of their periodical times are very near in the same pr= oportion with the cubes of their distance from the center of Mars, which ev= idently shows them to be governed by the same law of gravitation that influ= ences the other heavenly bodies.=94 About this passage a literature of no mean number of authors grew in the ye= ars after 1877, when Asaph Hall, a New England carpenter turned astronomer,= discovered the two trabants of Mars. They are between five and ten miles i= n diameter. They revolve on orbits close to their primary and in very short= times: actually the inner one, Phobos, makes more than three revolutions i= n the time it takes Mars to complete one rotation on its axis; and were the= re intelligent beings on Mars they would need to count two different months= according to the number of satellites (this is no special case =97 Jupiter= has twelve moons and Saturn ten*), and also observe one moon ending its mo= nth three times in one Martian day. It is a singular case in the solar syst= em among the natural satellites that a moon completes one revolution before= its primary finishes one rotation. Swift ascribed to the Laputans some amazing knowledge=97actually he himsel= f displayed, it is claimed, an unusual gift of foreknowledge. The chorus of= wonderment can be heard in the evaluation of C. P. Olivier in his article = =93Mars=94 written for the Encyclopedia Americana (1943): =93When it is noted how very close Swift came to the truth, not only in mer= ely predicting two small moons but also the salient features of their orbit= s, there seems little doubt that this is the most astounding =92prophecy=92= of the past thousand years as to whose full authenticity there is not a sh= adow of doubt.=94 The passage in Kepler is little known=97Olivier, like other writers on the = subject of Swift=92s divination, was unaware of it, and the case of Swift= =92s prophecy appears astounding: the number of satellites, their close dis= tances to the body of the planet, and their swift revolutions are stated in= a book printed one hundred and fifty years to the year before the discover= y of Asaph Hall. Let us examine the case. Swift, being an ecclesiastical dignitary and a sch= olar, not just a satirist, could have learned of Kepler=92s passage about t= wo satellites of Mars; he could also have learned of them in Homer and Virg= il where they are described in poetic language (actually, Asaph Hall named = the discovered satellites by the very names the flaming trabants of Mars we= re known by from Homer and Virgil); and it is also not inconceivable that S= wift learned of them in some old manuscript dating from the Middle Ages and= relating some ancient knowledge from Arabian, or Persian, or Hindu, or Chi= nese sources. To this day an enormous number of medieval manuscripts have n= ot seen publication and in the days of Newton (Swift published Gulliver=92s= Travels in the year Newton was to die), as we know from Newton=92s own stu= dies in ancient lore, for every published tome there was a multiplicity of = unpublished classical, medieval, and Renaissance texts. That Swift knew Kepler=92s laws, he himself gave testimony, and this in the= very passage that concerns us: =93. . . so that the squares of their perio= dical times are very near in the same proportion with the cubes of their di= stance from the center of Mars=94 is the Third Law of Kepler. But even if we assume that Swift knew nothing apart from the laws of Kepler= to make his guess, how rare would be such a guess of the existence of two = Martian satellites and of their short orbits and periods? As to their numbe= r, in 1726 there were known to exist: five satellites of Saturn, four of Ju= piter, one of Earth, and none of Venus. Guessing, one could reasonably say:= none, one, two, three, four, or five. The chance of hitting on the right F= igure was one in six, or the chance of any one side of a die=92s coming up = in a throw. The smallness of the guessed satellites would necessarily follo= w from their not having been discovered in the age of Newton. Their proximi= ty to the parent planet and their short periods of revolution were but one = guess, not two, by anybody who knew of the work of Newton and Kepler. The n= earness of the satellites to the primary could have been assumed on the bas= is of what was known about the satellites of Jupiter and Saturn, lo, one of= the Galilean (or Medicean) satellites of Jupiter, revolves around the giant planet in I day= 18.5 hours (the satellite closest to Jupiter was discovered in 1892 by Bar= nard and is known as the =93fifth satellite=94 in order of discovery; it re= volves around Jupiter, a planet ten thousand times the size of Mars, in 1 1= .9 hours). The three satellites of Saturn discovered by Cassini before the = days of Swift - Tethys, Dione and Rhea - revolve respectively in I day 21.3= hours, 2 days 17 hours, and 4 days 12.4 hours. (Mimas and Enceladus, disco= vered by Herschelin 1789, revolve in 22. 6 hours and I day 8.9 hours.) The = far removed satellites of Jupiter were not yet discovered in the days of Ne= wton and Swift. It remains to compare the figures of Swift with those of Hall: there was no= true agreement between what the former wrote in his novel and what the lat= ter found through his telescope. For Deimos, Swift=92s figure, expressed in= miles from the surface of Mars, is 18,900 miles; actually it is 12,500 mil= es; Swift gave its revolution time as 21.5 hours=97actually it is 30.3 hour= s. For Phobos, Swift=92s figures are 10,500 miles from the surface and 10 h= ours revolution period, whereas the true Figures are 3,700 miles and 7.65 h= ours. Remarkable remains the fact that for the inner satellite Swift assume= d a period of revolution, though not what it is, but shorter than the Marti= an period of rotation, which is true. However, Swift did not know the rotat= ional period of Mars and therefore he was not aware of the uniqueness of hi= s figure. If he were to calculate as an astronomer should, he would either = have decreased the distance separating the inner satellite from Mars - a di= stance for which he gave thrice its true value - or increased its revolution period to comply with = the Keplerian laws by assuming the specific weight of Mars as comparable wi= th that of Earth. But Swift had no ambitions toward scientific inquiry in h= is satirical novel. References 1. The reference is found in the collected works of Kepler (Astronomic= a opera omnia, ed. C. Frisch, vol. VI, p. 557) published in 1866.=20 =20 =09=09 --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail for Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Aug 07 23:32:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 71464 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2005 06:32:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Aug 2005 06:32:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.200.77) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Aug 2005 06:32:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 48921 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Aug 2005 06:32:40 -0000 Message-ID: <20050808063240.48919.qmail@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.113] by web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 07 Aug 2005 23:32:40 PDT Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 23:32:40 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 68.142.200.77 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Velikovksy's P2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=uxcjfvmiDwy3h8_pIo-xZ48FQBNwGP0Ht48YCb7kCS68bMpF_Q X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My Challenge to Conventional Views in Science=20 =20 =93Books written about the solar system before the advent of the space age = could as well have been written in Latin or Greek, so dated do they appear = to a contemporary reader.=94 Zdenek Kopal - The Solar System (Oxford University Press, 1973) In my published books, notwithstanding often repeated allegations, no physi= cal law is ever abrogated or =93temporarily suspended=94; what I offered in= them is primarily a reconstruction of events from the historical past. Thu= s I did not set out to confront the existing views with a theory or hypothe= sis and to develop it into a competing system. My work is first a reconstru= ction, not a theory; it is built upon studying the human testimony as prese= rved in the heritage of all ancient civilizations=97all of them in texts be= queathed beginning with the time man learned to write, tell in various form= s the very same narrative that the trained eye of a psychoanalyst could not= but recognize as so many variants of the same theme. In hymns, in prayers,= in historical texts, in philosophical discourses, in records of astronomic= al observations, but also in legend and religious myth, the ancients desper= ately tried to convey to their descendants, ourselves included, the record = of events that took place in circumstances that left a strong imprint on the witnesses. There were phys= ical upheavals on a global scale in historical times; the grandiosity of th= e events inspired awe. From the Far East to the Far West=97the Japanese, Ch= inese and Hindu civilizations; the Iranian, Sumerian, Assyrian, Babylonian,= Hitto-Chaldean, Israelite and Egyptian records; the Etruscan, Attic and Ro= man theogonies and philosophies; Scandinavian and Icelandic epics; Mayan, T= oltec and Olmec art and legends=97all, with no exception, were dominated by= the knowledge of events and circumstances that only the most brazen attitu= de of science could so completely disregard.=20 The scientific community starts its annals with Newton, paying some homage = to Copernicus, Kepler and Galileo, unaware that the great ones of the sixte= enth and seventeenth centuries searched through classical authors of antiqu= ity for their great discoveries. Did not Copernicus strike out the name of = Aristarchus of Samos from the introduction to De Revolutionibus before he s= igned imprimatur on his work? Did not Tycho Brahe find the compromising the= ory of the Sun revolving around the Earth=97but Mercury and Venus circling = around the Sun=97in Heracleides of Pontus, yet announce it as his own? Did = not Galileo read of the equal velocity of heavy and light falling bodies in= Lucretius;1 did not Newton read in Plutarch of the Moon removed from the E= arth by fifty-six terrestrial radii and impelled by gravitation to circle a= round the Earth,2 the basic postulate of Newton=92s Principia, and did not = Halley read in Pliny about comets returning on their orbits?3 Then why does= modern science disregard the persistent reports of events witnessed and recorded in many languages in t= he writings of the ancients and also transmitted from generation to generat= ion by communities unable to write, by American Indians, by the people of L= apland, the Voguls of Siberia, the aborigines of tropical Africa, the Tahit= ians in the South Pacific? Why is theomachy the central theme of all cosmogonical myths? Should not a = thinking man pause and wonder why the ancients in both hemispheres worshipp= ed planetary gods; why temples were erected to them, and some are still sta= nding; why sacrifices, even human sacrifices, were brought to them? Why was= Saturn or Cronos or Brahma the supreme deity to be replaced by Jupiter of = the Romans, Zeus of the Greeks, Ormuzd of the Iranians, Marduk of the Babyl= onians, Shiva of the Hindus, Ammon of the Egyptians? Why did the planet Ven= us=97Ishtar, Athene, Kukulcan of the Mayas or Quetzalcohuatl of the Toltecs= =97become the feared deity, as I saw it omnipresent in Yucatan, where I sav= ored a few days this February, writing this paper? Why is this Morning Star= shown in sculpture as a feathered serpent on the grandiose monuments of Ux= mal and Chichen Itza, where temples were built, one upon the other, if not = to commemorate the ages, the last of which was dominated by Huitzilopochtli= , Ares of the Greeks, who protected the people of Troy, while Athene clashed with him protecting the= Achaean host? Why was Mars of the Romans chosen as the protector of Rome, the greatest em= pire after the Empire of Heaven (Livy), while Athene gave her name to the c= apital of Attica, as Tanis to Tunisia? Why were human sacrifices brought in= this country by the Pawnee Indians only a few scores of years ago, every f= ifty-two years connected with the Venus calendar? Why did the Ancient Assyr= ians mark on tens of thousands of clay tablets, free from any mythological = theme, astronomical observations, but all data from before -687 are in cont= radiction to known values such as the duration of the daily rotation of the= Earth, the time of the vernal equinox=97that by the way was repeatedly tra= nsferred, as was also the beginning of the year=97the ratio of the longest = and shortest days of the year, the length of the month and of the year and = the motion of the planets? The legends and myths clearly point to an astral= origin of all ancient religions. The problem that occupied the minds of the Classicists, Meso-american schol= ars. Orientalists, and students of social anthropology and mythology, was n= ot solved in any one of these disciplines separately. Like the early memory= of a single man, so the early memory of the human race belongs into the do= main of the student of psychology. Only a philosophically and historically,= but also analytically trained mind can see in the mythological subjects th= eir true content=97a mind that learned in long years of exercise to underst= and the dreams and phantasies of his fellow man. Thus I entered a field that should be at the basis of the natural sciences,= not only of the human soul and of racial memories, and soon I observed tha= t the divisions in science are but artificial. I had to cross barriers. How= could I do otherwise? Upon the realization that we are unaware of the most= fateful events in human history, I had before me the task of explaining th= is well-known phenomenon of repression, the realization of which could also= become crucial to the survival of the victim of amnesia playing with therm= onuclear weapons. But before that I had the task of confronting the humanis= tic heritage with the message of stones and bones=97do geology and paleonto= logy carry the same testimony? I went again from shelf to shelf, once more = around the Earth, and the record from the bottom of the sea and from the to= p of the mountains, from the deserts, jungles, tundras, lakes, rivers and w= aterfalls, told the same story=97documented in every latitude and in every = longitude. This evidence is presented in Earth in Upheaval, which I kept free from any bit of testimon= y that can be classified as human heritage. The scenes of devastation, mass= extinction of many species in circumstances that are by far in excess of w= hat can be considered as local catastrophe, the simultaneous change of clim= ate all over the globe thirty-four and twenty-seven centuries ago, the drop= of the level of the ocean and many other phenomena observed, could not be = accounted for but by paroxysms in which the entire Earth was involved. A psychological situation provoked the change in the attitude of the schola= rly world with the beginning of the Victorian age. The founders of the scie= nces of geology=97Buckland, Sedgwick, and Murchinson (who gave the classifi= cation of formations used today); of vertebrate paleontology=97Cuvier; and = of ichthyology=97Louis Agassiz=97never doubted that what they observed was = the result of repeated cataclysms in which the entire globe partook. Actual= ly, Charles Darwin, observing the destruction of fauna in South America, wa= s convinced that nothing less than the shaking of the entire frame of the E= arth could account for what he saw. But the introduction of the principle o= f uniformitarianism by Charles Lyell, a lawyer who never had field experien= ce, and the acceptance of it on faith by Charles Darwin, are a psychologica= l phenomenon that I observed again and again. Exactly those who, like Darwi= n, witnessed the omnipresent shambles of an overwhelming fury of devastatio= n on a continental scale, became the staunchest defenders of the principle of uniformitarianism, tha= t became not just a law, but a principle that grew to a statute of faith in= the natural sciences, as if the reasoning that what we do not observe in o= ur time could not have happened in the past can in any measure claim to be = philosophically or scientifically true. Obviously, a motive is at play that makes appear as scientific principle wh= at is but wishful thinking. For over a century after Copernicus man did not= wish to believe that he lives on an Earth that travels, and Francis Bacon = and William Shakespeare were not persuaded by that firebrand, Giordano Brun= o, of the truth of the Copemican doctrine. Even much less man wishes to fac= e the fact that he travels on a rock in space on a path that proved to be a= ccident-prone. The victory of Darwin=92s evolution by natural selection ove= r a six-day creation less than six thousand years ago made it appear that e= volution, the only instrument of which is competition, is the ultimate trut= h. But by competition for survival or for means of existence, never could s= uch different forms as man and an insect with many legs evolve from the sam= e unicellular form, not even in the six billion years that replaced the bib= lical six thousand. Mutations were necessary, and today we know that by cos= mic and x-rays, by thermal and chemical means=97conditions brought about in the catastrophes = of the past=97massive mutations can be achieved. The pre-1950 astronomy followed the same pseudo-scientific statute of faith= , elevated to a fundamental principle, and made believe that the Earth and = other planets travel the same paths for the same six billion years, always = repeating the same serene circling. Against this violation of the principle= of empiricism in science stood my work. In it I rejected the postulate tha= t the ancients, the Greek philosophers Pythagoras, Heraclitus, Democritus a= nd Plato included (O. Neugebauer in The Exact Sciences in Antiquity wonders= why Plato is considered anywhere a philosopher of any rank4) were childish= in their claims of repeated world conflagrations, and that the ancients we= re almost imbeciles in their beliefs. The ancients, the canard goes, believ= ed in the Earth placed on the back of a tortoise. Thus it is preferred to s= tart science three hundred years ago, and my work was pronounced (by those = who did not read it) as an act of destruction of the entire edifice of scie= nce erected by the giants of science since Copernicus. I offered a series of claims that naturally followed from the reconstructio= n. In science they are usually called predictions, but I prefer to term the= m advance claims. Thus I claimed that Venus, due to its recent birth and dr= amatic though short history, must be very hot under the clouds, nearly inca= ndescent, and gives off heat=97it has not reached thermal balance; that it = must have every massive atmosphere; that the atmosphere consisted largely o= f hydrocarbons but that if oxygen is present petroleum fires must be burnin= g=97thus explaining also the present massive carbon dioxide content of the = atmosphere; that sulfur and iron (ferruginous pigment) must be present too;= and that if the same catalytic process that took place on the Earth when i= t was enveloped by clouds of Venus=92 origin takes place in Venus=92 own cl= ouds, they must consist mainly of organic material infused with sulfur and = iron molecules. Further, I considered that Venus was disturbed in its rotat= ion. Venus was found over 750=B0K. hot=97many metals are incandescent at this te= mperature=97while the consensus of opinion among astronomers was 17=B0C., 3= =B0 above the mean annual temperature on Earth. Venus was found rotating sl= owly and retrogradely. The atmosphere was found very massive, 95 terrestria= l pressures near the ground surface, and not reckoning with this possibilit= y, the first Venera probes were crushed. The content of the clouds is still= unsolved, but in a paper in the Winter, 1973-74 issue of Pens=E9e, a journ= al dedicated to the reconsideration of my views, I elucidated that the spec= tral features in the ultraviolet, near infrared, infrared and deep infrared= can be accounted for by organic matter, and so can the volatility and the = index of refraction. Nitrogen gas, expected by all specialists to comprise = as much as 90% of the atmosphere, was not found. The enigma of the very ric= h content of carbon dioxide below the clouds is solved if the combustion of= hydrocarbons took and still takes place. I expect that the Venus Mariner X probe of this month will bring us= nearer to properly evaluating the content of Venus=92 clouds. But the prel= iminary report already says that =93the manner in which that planet was bor= n and matured differed basically from that of Earth.=94 An editorial in the= New York Times, commenting on the bands and streaks first discovered by Ma= riner X, spoke of an =93uncanny similarity=94 to the bands =93in the atmosp= here of Jupiter.=94 It added that =93it is a problem that poses a formidabl= e challenge to astronomers.=94 There are problems requiring study that were not discussed in Worlds in Col= lision because the origin of Venus belongs to the volumes dealing with the = earlier catastrophes. How did Venus, in Latin, =93the Newcomer,=94 escape f= rom Jupiter four hundred times more massive?=97and Lyttleton=92s work gives= some idea; or how could Venus be so much heavier per unit of volume than J= upiter?=97either it was expelled from inner parts of the giant planet, or g= ases like hydrogen entered into chemical compounds of higher molecular weig= ht. In Worlds in Collision I suggested that electrical discharges in the at= mosphere of ammonia and methane in which Jupiter is rich, would produce hyd= rocarbons of heavy molecular weight=97an experiment successfully performed = ten years later by A. T. Wilson. Further, I envisaged fusion of elements=97= like oxygen to sulphur=97in interplanetary discharges. Orbiter and Surveyor probes of the Moon were followed by Apollo probes; and= on the historic night of July 21, 1969, when Man stepped on the Moon, I ma= de a series of claims in an article written at the invitation of the New Yo= rk Times, and spelled out earlier as well in memos to the Space Science Boa= rd of the National Academy of Sciences. Strong magnetic remanence, I claime= d, would be discovered in lunar rocks and lavas, though the Moon itself har= dly possesses any magnetic field whatsoever. A steep thermal gradient would= be found already a few feet under the surface. Thermoluminescence would di= sclose that the Moon was heated considerably only thousands of years ago. H= ydrocarbons, preferably of aromatic structure, would be found in small quan= tities, but carbides, into which hydrocarbons would transform when heated, = in substantial quantities; expressed radioactivity would be detected in lun= ar soil and rocks; and several more claims. Already following Apollo XI and= XII the score was complete. But each of the discoveries=97steep thermal gradient, strong rem= anent magnetism, recent heating of the lunar surface, carbides and traces o= f aromatic hydrocarbons, and rich radioactivity of the rocks and dust=97evo= ked exclamations of surprise and at best some far fetched, ad hoc hypothese= s. Magnetic anomalies, especially where interplanetary bolts fell, and huge= enclaves of neon and argon 40 in lunar rocks, were also claimed by me in a= dvance of the findings. The Mars probes disclosed, as I had claimed in Worlds in Collision, a dead = planet that went through enormous cataclysmic events, not unlike the Moon. = The =93canali=94 proved to be not the product of intelligent work, but rift= s caused by twisting of strata. Like on the Moon, enormous craters resulted= from bubbling, but some formations, especially surrounded with =93rays,=94= resulted, in my view, from interplanetary discharges. When last December [1973] I was invited to address the scientists of the La= ngley Space Research Center that prepares the June 1976 Viking probes to Ma= rs, I was told of the program and shown the module. I found that my 1945 co= pyrighted view, printed also in Worlds in Collision, of the possible abunda= nt presence of argon and neon in the atmosphere of Mars, then a very far-fe= tched idea, is now incorporated in the program of the 1976 Viking probes. T= oday, in one of the alternative atmosphere models (the other has nitrogen r= ichly presented - the same alternative I discussed in Worlds in Collision),= NASA anticipates as much as 33.3% argon in the atmosphere, but, in my opin= ion, too little=97666 parts per million=97neon. Actually, in 1969 I saw my = assumption indirectly confirmed when after I expressed my expectation of ri= ch inclusions of argon and neon in lunar rocks, such enigmatic inclusions w= ere found. I based my expectation on the realization that in the eighth cen= tury before the present era Mars and the Moon repeatedly came into near-contacts. I would speculate that the red color of Mars, due mainly to the ferruginous= material acquired from Venus when the latter displaced it from its orbit (= in the theomachy described in great detail in the Iliad), may partly be due= also to an electrical effect in a neon-rich Martian atmosphere. I recommen= ded in my lecture and consultation at Langley Space Research Center several tests not found in their program as it stands now: 1. To study the electrical nature of the sandstorms, occasionally reac= hing the velocity of one hundred to two hundred miles per hour, in the rare= fied atmosphere of the planet.=20 2. To search for strong remanent magnetism of rocks and lavas, not jus= t to photograph soil particles attractable to a magnet. As just explained, = iron particles will be found in abundance. In future probes anomalous reman= ent magnetism will be discovered near places where electrical bolts emerged= or fell.=20 3. To search for expressed radioactivity of the rocks and regolith, es= pecially near large circular formations that resulted from interplanetary d= ischarges.=20 4. To investigate the thermal gradient, presumably rather steep, even = if only at the depth of two or three feet.=20 5. To perform a thermoluminescence experiment on glass-like particles = in the Martian soil which will disclose a very recent heating of the Martia= n surface; if it were not for the expected radioactivity on Mars, the prope= r result would be twenty-seven centuries for the last heating.=20 The logic that led me to these conclusions and suggestions was the same tha= t made me make similar advance claims concerning the Moon before the lunar = landings. I understand that the program will be dominated by an effort to find out wh= ether there is or there was life on Mars; organic materials will be searche= d for and I count with the possibility that traces of hydrocarbons may be f= ound in the Martian soil, but almost all hydrocarbons must have turned into= carbide rocks by heating; cultures of possible micro-organisms will be inv= estigated for changes in color and for the production of gases. In Worlds in Collision I compiled descriptions from many sources of a widel= y spread pestilence that accompanied Mars=92 close approaches; it is not ex= cluded that Mars is richly populated by micro-organisms pathogenic to man. = I suggested an inclusion of a microscope in the equipment of Viking and, if= possible, of an electron microscope for the study of viruses. I do not dis= count the probability that the seasonal changes in the color of the Martian= surface may be due to seasonal microbial or other low vegetative activity. It is preferable to postpone the second Viking probe, now planned as identi= cal with the first and following it by one month, in order to rework the pr= ogram and to include the instruments needed for the test I enumerated. When earlier, a year and a half ago, in August [1972] , I was invited to le= cture and consult at Ames Space Research Center (Division of Exobiology), I= suggested also that microbial life able to catalyze can possibly be found = in Venus=92 clouds, lower forms of insect life on Jupiter, and primitive pl= ant life on Saturn, besides what I said now of Mars. So much for cosmology = and also the evolution of life. If I was completely at odds with the cosmogony that had the solar system wi= thout history since creation, I was also carrying my heresy into a most sac= red field, the holy of holies of science=97celestial mechanics. I had a cha= pter on the subject at the end of Worlds in Collision, but I kept those gal= leys from inclusion in the book and instead I included only one or two para= graphs=97and the only italicized words in the book are found in them=97name= ly: =91The accepted celestial mechanics, notwithstanding the many calculati= ons that have been carried out to many decimal places, or verified by celes= tial motions, stands only ;/ the sun, the source of light, warmth, and othe= r radiation produced by fusion and fission of atoms, is as a whole an elect= rically neutral body, and also if the planets, in their usual orbits, are n= eutral bodies.=94 I showed how the events I reconstructed could have occurr= ed in the frame of the classical celestial mechanics, but coming from the f= ield of studying the working of the brain=97I was the first to claim that electrical disturbances lie at t= he basis of epileptic seizures=97I was greatly surprised to find that astro= nomy, the queen of sciences, lives still in the pre-Faraday age, not even i= n the time of kerosene lamps, but of candles and oil. It was, of course, kn= own since Gilbert that the Earth is a magnet, and G. E. Hale discovered tha= t solar spots are magnetic and that the Sun possesses a general magnetic fi= eld. But this did not keep Einstein, a few years later, from accounting for= the Mercurial precession by a new principle instead of first eliminating t= he effect of the newly discovered solar magnetic field on Mercury=92s movem= ent. I claimed the existence of a magnetosphere above the terrestrial ionosphere= - it was discovered by Van Allen in 1958; I claimed that this magnetospher= e reaches as far as the lunar orbit=97it was discovered by Ness in 1964; I = claimed that the interplanetary space is magnetic and the field centers on = the Sun and rotates with it=97it was discovered in 1960 by simultaneous obs= ervation of Pioneer V and Explorer X, one travelling around the Sun and the= other around the Earth; I claimed that Jupiter sends out radio noises,5 an= d actually offered in writing in June 1954 to Albert Einstein to stake our = protracted debate as to whether, besides inertia and gravitation, electroma= gnetic interactions participate in celestial mechanics: Does or does not Ju= piter send out radio noises?=97and Einstein wrote his note of disbelief on = the margin of my letter. But on the 8th of April, 1955, nine days before hi= s death, I brought to him the news that Jupiter noises were discovered by c= hance; those who detected them for long weeks disbelieved their find and the Jovian origin of the no= ises. Lately I lecture frequently for physical and engineering societies and facu= lties, and I challenge those in the audience who believe that a magnetic bo= dy can move through a magnetic field without being affected by it to lift t= heir hands. Can Jupiter with its immense magnetosphere move in the magnetic= field centered on the Sun, if only of a few gammas, without being affected= by it? Can the satellites of Jupiter plow through the magnetosphere of the= giant planet without being affected by it? On no occasion I saw a hand rai= sed. Only a few weeks ago, preliminary reports in Science on the Pioneer X Decem= ber flyby recorded a series of unusual electromagnetic phenomena involving = Jupiter and its satellites. At about the same time we read of radio noises = for the first time detected from a comet, as Kohoutek was approaching its p= erhelion. (Incidentally, contrary to the unanimous opinion expressed by ast= ronomical authorities, with which I disagreed, Kohoutek did not develop int= o the greatest celestial spectacle of the century.) The role of electromagn= etic interaction between a comet and the Sun was another subject of my deta= iled discussion, oral and written, with Einstein. With the discovery of quasars, magnetic binaries, black holes and colliding= galaxies sending out agonized radio signals, the electromagnetic nature of= the universe is no more in question. Space is not empty either. I feel lik= e calling Ren=E9 Descartes from the Land of Shades to present his appeal, b= ecause as late as 1949, a year before the publication of Worlds in Collisio= n, the verdict was, according to the philosopher Butterfield, that =93The c= lean and comparatively empty Newtonian skies ultimately carried the day aga= inst a Cartesian universe packed with matter and agitated with whirlpools, = for the existence of which scientific observation provided no evidence.=94 But ten years later we read: =93Gone forever is any earthbound notion of sp= ace as a serene thoroughfare . . . . a fantastic amount of cosmic traffic (= hot gaseous clouds, deadly rays, bands of electricity) rushes by at high sp= eed, circles, crisscrosses, and collides.=94 How could I produce this score of correct prognostications? Professor V. Es= hleman of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, obviously astounded, wrote on Sept= ember II, 1970, to a news-writer=97 =93I am completely mystified as to how = Velikovsky reaches his conclusions. It is almost as though he does it throu= gh will power alone. . . .=94 But could I, by will power alone, initiate Ju= piter=92s noises? There is no mystery. My advance claims are a =93natural fallout from a sing= le central idea,=94 in the words of one student of the affair. Reading of m= y work is a prerequisite for understanding the way I reach my conclusions. Yet not a few upheld the scientific method by absolving themselves from rea= ding the book they discuss and occasionally suppress. These days one planet= arium astronomer authoritatively pronounced my score of correct predictions= as compatible with the law of averages and added that I would have been un= fortunate if my score were any less. Seven years earlier the same planetari= um astronomer was the mastermind in the refusal of the Franklin Institute i= n Philadelphia to permit the oldest astronomical association of America, th= e Ritten-house Society, to convene at their traditional meeting place in th= e Institute when they invited me to address their members=97a story that ha= d many reverberations. The behavior of the scientific community was and partly still is a psycholo= gical phenomenon. The spectacle of the scientific establishment going throu= gh all the paces of self degradation has nothing with which to compare in t= he past, though every time a new leaf in science was turned over there was = a minor storm, and it is not without precedent that most authoritative voic= es in science usually served to discourage the trail blazers=97think of Lor= d Kelvin, unsurpassed authority of later Victorian days, who rejected Clerk= Maxwell=92s electromagnetic theory, demeaned Guglieimo Marconi=92s radiote= legraphy, and till his death in 1907 proclaimed Wilhelm Konrad Roentgen for= a charlatan. But it is without precedent that the entire scientific community should be = aroused to very base actions of compelling, by organized boycott, the publi= sher of a book checked and rechecked before the printing to discontinue its= publication, to destroy the entire stock, and to punish the editor of twen= ty-five years service by dismissal. This community offered a united front o= f academic and scientific societies, of faculties, of scientific and semi-s= cientific press against a solitary figure whose only iniquity was to presen= t views carefully arrived at in more than a decade of work, supplied with a= ll references to enable the reader to check multitudinous sources, with nev= er a jest or a harsh word against those with whom the non-conformist disagr= eed, with no new terms introduced, in lucid language, though foreign to me,= never given to misunderstanding. Now, after twenty-four years, and more than seventy-two printings in the En= glish language alone, forty of which were in hard cover, my Worlds in Colli= sion, as well as Earth in Upheaval, do not require any revisions, whereas a= ll books on terrestrial and celestial sciences of 1950 need complete rewrit= ing. The opposition and the indecent forms it took are a psychological phen= omenon and cannot be explained by a mere desire to protect the vested inter= ests. The forms the suppression assumed are so multiple and sometimes ingen= ious, but mostly crassly rough and often dishonest, that only having been t= rained in recognizing various forms of resistance with which analytical pat= ients react when unwelcome truth is about to reveal itself, could I underst= and the unique spectacle which I observe now for a full generation. If a sociologist endeavors to divide the guilt between the establishment an= d the non-conformist, and claims neutrality, then he did not learn to disce= rn objectivity from neutrality. And if a professor of astronomy puts passag= es in my book which are not there and then makes the class of tuition-payin= g students roar by attacking those passages, this roar may still sound in h= is ears when there will be no merriment in it. In these antics, an experien= ced psychoanalyst recognizes a state of anxiety. =93We are shaking in our s= hoes=97but with laughter=94 wrote an early critic, Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin= of Harvard. Actually the astronomers of that university must have felt thr= eatened by the book and even an entire generation later, acting as if in pe= ril, a Nobel prize winner wrote to a high school girl to close Worlds in Co= llision and not to open it again in her lifetime, only to admit three years= later to the editor of Pens=E9e that he never himself read the book. Those= who act almost suicidally should keep their fingers on the pulse of time. In the behavior of the scientific establishment the desperate resistance th= at bedevils human society found its expression. As members of the human rac= e, we are afraid to face our past. But as Santayana wrote, those who do not= remember the past are condemned to repeat it and=97this time, I am afraid,= in a man-made thermonuclear holocaust. My work today is no longer heretical. Most of it is incorporated in textboo= ks and it does not matter whether credit is properly assigned. My work is n= ot concluded=97I only opened new vistas. The young and the imaginative floc= k in an ever increasing stream. Numerous colleges and universities in this = country hold courses or seminars on my work, include my books among the req= uired readings and have theses on my ideas written for graduate degrees. Th= ose who stopped thinking since graduating will claim authority, soon to fin= d that they are left without a following. I may have even caused retardatio= n in the development of science by making some opponents cling to their una= cceptable views only because such views may contradict Velikovsky - like st= icking to the completely unsupportable hypothesis of greenhouse effect as t= he cause of Venus=92 heat, even in violation of the Second Law of Thermodyn= amics. This spring, besides this Symposium on my work, two more international symp= osia dedicated to the subject will take place without my having any part in= initiating them. Those who prefer name calling to argument, wit to deliber= ation, or those who point a triumphant finger at some detail that they misi= nterpret, yet claim that my entire work ought to collapse, and boast of the= ir own exclusiveness as a caste of specialists=97as if I claimed omniscienc= e and infallibility and as if I wrote a sacred book that falls due to some = possible error=97are not first in their art. I shall quote Giordano Bruno, = and one of the organizers of this symposium, Professor Owen Gingerich, Harv= ard=92s historian of science, is well familiar with Bruno=92s description o= f how his contemporaries used to conduct a dispute: =93With a sneer, a smile, a certain discrete malice, that which they have n= ot succeeded in proving by argument=97nor indeed can it be understood by th= emselves=97nevertheless by these tricks of courteous disdain they pretend t= o have proven, endeavouring not only to conceal their own patently obvious = ignorance but to cast it on to the back of their adversary. For they disput= e not in order to find or even to seek Truth, but for victory, and to appea= r the more learned and strenuous upholders of a contrary opinion. Such pers= ons should be avoided by all who have not a good breastplate of patience.= =94 After all, it really does not matter so much what Velikovsky=92s role is in= the scientific revolution that goes now across all fields from astronomy w= ith emphasis on charges, plasmas and fields, to zoology with its study of v= iolence in man. But this symposium in the frame of the AAAS is, I hope, a r= etarded recognition that by name-calling instead of testing, by jest instea= d of reading and meditating, nothing is achieved. None of my critics can er= ase the magnetosphere, nobody can stop the noises of Jupiter, nobody can co= ol off Venus, and nobody can change a single sentence in my books. References 1. Lucretius, On the Nature of Things, translated by C. Bailey (Oxford= , 1924; earlier ed., 1910) Bk. II, lines 23ff.: =93For all things that fall= through the water and thin air, these things must need quicken their fall = in proportion to their weights, just because the body of water and the thin= nature of air cannot check each thing equally, but give place more quickly= when overcome by heavier bodies. But, on the other hand, the empty void ca= nnot on any side, at any time, support anything, but rather, as its own nat= ure desires, it continues to give place; wherefore all things must needs be= borne on through the calm void, moving at equal rate with unequal weights.= =94=20 2. Plutarch, Of the face appearing in the orb of the Moon, translated = by W. Goodwin, (Boston, 1898) 246f. =93They who place the moon lowest say t= hat her distance from us contains six and fifty of the earth=92s semi-diame= ters, that is, that she is six and fifty times as far from us as we are fro= m the centre of the earth; which is forty thousand stadia, according to tho= se that make their computation moderately. Therefore the sun is above forty= millions and three hundred thousand stadia distant from the moon; so far i= s she from the sun by reason of gravity, and so near does she approach to t= he earth. So that if substances are to be distinguished by places, the port= ion and region of the earth challenges to itself the moon, which by reason = of neighborhood and proximity, has the right to be reputed and reckoned amo= ngs the terrestrial natures of bodies.=94 Cf. Isaac Newton, Mathematical Pr= inciples of Natural Philosophy, translated by A. Motte, 1729, revised by F.= Cajori, Berkeley, 1946. Book III: The System of the World. Proposition IV, Theorem IV, p. 407: The mean= distance of the moon from the earth in syzygies in semi-diameters of the e= arth is, acc. to Ptolemy and most astronomers, 59; acc. to Vendelin and Hug= gins, 60... and to Tycho, 56=BD...=94=20 3. Pliny, Natural History, II. 23. =93Some person may suppose that the= se stars [comets] are permanent and that they move through their proper orb= its, but that they are only visible when they recede from the sun...=94=20 4. O. Neugebauer, The Exact Sciences in Antiquity (Princeton Universit= y Press, 1952), p. 146.=20 5. I. Velikovsky, =93On the Advance Claim of Jupiter=92s Radionoises,= =94 Kronos III.:1 (Aug., 1977), pp. 27-30.=20 =20 =09=09 --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Aug 08 06:25:30 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 38858 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2005 13:25:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Aug 2005 13:25:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Aug 2005 13:25:29 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.2] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E27cA-0007PU-JE; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 09:24:27 -0400 To: "AA-BNStudy" , "AAA-Dal" Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 06:24:09 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01c59c1c$7f85ce20$02deb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79d6a93bb6bb70659b34696b9d2575e6c8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.66 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: Theos-World The Trouble in Paris - Historic Question X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=DuNLp8JjjtD4yPMXXBu7nyBlAlT1oXX13MzIHlwilme9uQ X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 8/8/2005 5:34 AM Dear Spiro: Re: Paris Lodge THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY troubles 1888-89 Something is given in the pages of LUCIFER, Le LOTUS BLEU and La REVUE THEOSOPHIQUE around that period. Also some references may be had in the book: The THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT 91875-1925) (available on line through Caldwell Archives.) Best wishes, Dallas ======================================== -----Original Message----- From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Spiro Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 11:54 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World The Trouble in Paris - Historic Question Hi all, In a letter by HPB around 1888-1889 (can't remember which), she mentions some problems with the Paris branch of the Theosophical Society. I've tried to search for this background but have drawn a blank. Does anyone know or can direct me towards some reading material/link please. Thanks Spiro Yahoo! Groups Links From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Aug 08 06:25:30 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 84507 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2005 13:25:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Aug 2005 13:25:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Aug 2005 13:25:28 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.2] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E27c2-0007PU-1v; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 09:24:24 -0400 To: "AA-BNStudy" , "AAA-Dal" Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 06:24:09 -0700 Message-ID: <000b01c59c1c$7a725de0$02deb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <000d01c59906$ccc233e0$c31d6b3e@khidr> X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79d6a93bb6bb70659bf200ad4b064c0b01350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.66 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: Gregory's biggest mistake in life X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=DuNLp8JjjtD4yPMXXBu7nyBlAlT1oXX13MzIHlwilme9uQ X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 8/8/2005 5:41 AM Dear Friend: I insert some notes below in your text. Hope it satisfies. Dallas =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: M. Sufilight Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 8:12 AM To:=20 Subject: RE: Gregory's biggest mistake in life Hallo Dallas and all, My views are: Interesting answer Dallas. Thanks. But if your comments in the below are in accordance with truth, I think we will have to ask whether your presentation of the theosophical teachings it is in accordance with a teaching which has considered the importance of taking - the place, TIME, people involved and spiritual needs of the proces= s - into account. 1. MS There are several interesting aspects in the below comments written by Dallas. You write interestingly about "facts" and "opinion". I would like to add my view: MS What is a "fact" to some readers, are only an "opinion" to others. And this we all aught to consider carefully in our exchanges. Some readers understand this and others do not. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB Quite true. FACTS can be tested.=20=20 Opinions either agree with FACTS or they do not. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 2. MS Dallas wrote in the below about THEOSOPHY: "It provides history, logic and an altruistic "Goal" that all can recognize= , test and use if found to be valid." My Sufilight answer: Yes. Dallas, but in what manner does THEOSOPHY do that? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB Read ISIS UNVEILED and The SECRET DOCTRINE also: HPB's articles. Form your own opinion as to their accuracy and value.=20=20 I give them a high mark. I have found nothing to equal them in quality and range so far. Everyone is free to make their own efforts t understand and value. There are no final "authorities" except the FACTS of Laws and Living that w= e are all subject to. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D MS And almost the same could be asked about with some of the other statements= =20 of yours in the below. MS The next questions of mine - I do find to be very important. MS First. Are the various "teachers" or "emailers" - Dallas and Morten=20 included - presenting THEOSOPHY in a manner, which are both in accordance=20 with the Place, TIME, People involved spiritual needs of the process, - (And not merely the spiritual Wants of the proces.) ? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB each has to form their own conclusions. The power to discriminate is a common one and can be universally and impersonally applied. The value of any ethical or moral statement is to be decided by the individual. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D MS If not, what are they/we then missing? Is it a more wise relation to multi-cultural values, which are lacking? Is it the crystallizing of the cultural focus? [ NO ] Is it the clash between the Middle East vs. the West, Iran vs.=20 Washington/London ? [NO, UNIMPORTANT AND TRANSITORY ] Is it the heavy use of old books and quotes from them instead of new ones=20 adapted more to our present time? [ YES, FOR THE PATIENT ] Is it a lack of focus on what the Seven Keys are, and "dead-letter" reading= =20 and teaching? [ YES AND NO -- DECISIONS ARE TO BE BASED ON VALUE AND POSSIBLE APPLICATION ] Are we missing the teacher wich HPB foretold should come? [ WE ARE OUR OW= N TEACHERS. THE ATMA (Spirit) IS WITHIN EACH OF US, AND IS NOT SEPARATE FROM THE SPIRIT IN ANY OTHER BEING. ] Are the translations of certain writings to non-english languages creating = a problem? [YES ] If we are not missing anything, - are we then blind to the truth like the=20 pharisees? [ I THINK WE WANDER FROM A GRASP OF THE BASICS -- THEN THERE IS CONFUSION Can we define what the basics are -- as we can in mathematics? VIRTUES and VERITIES remain constant through the centuries and are unaffected by "cultures." It is our impatience that defeats us, especially when directed towards our own selfish self. ] MS "About finding fault with others" - and the Bhagavad Gita quote in the belo= w by Dallas. It is of course not a good idea to find faults with others if your motive i= s a bad one. But if your motive is a compassionate one, then your are helpful to the=20 individual and cosmos. How can we help people at all, if their faults are not corrected in a=20 certain manner? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB Certainly we cannot correct others' faults. We may point to them and bear the consequences. But the pest way is to present the VERITIES and the VIRTUES which are ageless. Let people draw their own conclusions. For example: take a class of school-children: Some are bright and interested in learning everything, then there is a group that has their own specially selected range of interests -- and they limit themselves and may augment their isolation; but the majority are indifferent or resentful, an= d would rather be amused, distracted and not be bothered -- they cannot foresee the future well. Others are totally disinterested and recalcitrant= . Without Karma and Reincarnation these differences of attitude are incomprehensible. The Teacher always has problems dealing with those who ar= e selfish and careless and who ae not compassionate or brotherly. Cultural sources, differences and apparent values have to be tested by the IDEALS that are being discussed and focussed on. In final resolution: Either we are all brother Souls or we are not.=20=20 BROTHERHOOD is a fact to be used and worked on constantly or it is not. What is "higher" than TRUTH ? DTB It seems to me that if each individual is in essence an eternal and undying Pilgrim, the spiritual SELF within has to be allowed by the embodie= d "mind" to make a decision and give help. I have not found that any "outside" help is ever fully satisfactory. It may give direction but all final choices have to be independently made by each individual for themselves, time after time.=20 It is the Universal LAW that finds fault, and not any person or any Avatar. Truth is eternal because it is changeless and the age or language in which it is expressed is immaterial. Why this craze for something "new?" -- whe= n the "old" is still not grasped and understood, or applied ? Where does impatience arise? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D MS (Sometimes I think that one only aught to read the Bhagavad Gita in Sanskri= t or on the Akasha level. All these problematic translations of the Bhagavad= =20 Gita can be a nusiance to us all. Take for instance also the words=20 "demoniacal dispositions".) [ WHERE VICE RESIDES ] 3. Dallas wrote: "What are the BASICS ? In the past 130 years we have still got "originals" of the TEXTS as well as photographic copies of those "originals," and, in addition, we have had these "originals" placed on Internet and CDs, so anyone can have and use them. " My Sufilight answer: But Dallas all your talk about "original texts" seem almost Jesuit like, does it not? Theosophy is not Bible study is it? The Secret Doctrine is not a Bible is=20 it? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB Study is NOT book reading. I have no idea of Jesuit training or objectives, but from all accounts their "members of that order" are fanatic= s in the area of VICE. The value of The SECRET DOCTRINE is inherent. If you don't study then you are ignorant as to its contents. If I wish to study Sufi teachings, (which I have) I go to the writings of the great Sufi masters and poets. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D MS Mere book reading will not help the Seeker reach the most high level of=20 liberation at the "highest abode", the abode of the Avatar.(Try Bhagavad Gita by Sir Edwin Arnold, Chapter 8, v16-22) More is CLEARLY needed. I agree, that the Seeker and Student will have to learn to think on a highe= r level and develop. And that is important. And that is why it is important how the teachings are being formulated toda= y 2005, now 30 years since the arrival of the teacher foretold by Blavatsky. = A teacher which has not been named yet. The teachings has to be formulated in accordance with the Place, TIME,=20 People involved spiritual needs of the process, -(And not merely the=20 spiritual Wants of the proces.) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB Then we have to be patient and wait, and in the meantime we ought to study and apply the VIRTUES we are able to understand and respect. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D from M. Sufilight (I would like to add, that a number of people read emails or other scripts.= =20 And a few weeks later they have forgotten about the content.) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" To: "AA-BNStudy" Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 2:49 PM Subject: Theos-World RE: Gregory's biggest mistake in life August 1, 2005 Dear Friends: The subjoined comments appear in the main useful and correct. Let us however observe that THEOSOPHY is as old as Mankind. It provides history, logic and an altruistic "Goal" that all can recognize, test and use if found to be valid. It is not "congregational." It does not seek numbers of "politically correct" adherents. It seeks to keep the record of ancient Laws, Rules and objectives alive and prominent for those who seek them to find and use. Those who assist in this do not seek any recognition of followers. They present what they have discovered, honestly, accurately, and openly, having only respect for facts and not for individuals and their "opinions." The principle is: "And that power the disciple shall covet is that which will make him appear as the least among men." {LIGHT ON THE PATH p. 4} THEOSOPHY provides its own validation. But to be able to know and use it the student/disciples have to study it. This aspect of the link is vital, since any advance or improvement in the nature, capacity and character of those who approach THEOSOPHY is self-generated. It is here that the motto of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY is to be invariably applied: "There is no Religion higher than TRUTH." No amount of money, or public display of loyalty, and the following of rites, rituals and ceremonies (and altered texts) helps. All the self-reform is interior and within the conscious intelligence (MIND= ) of each disciple. This is real "key to occultism." It is firmly grasped b= y every aspirant. Opening the 16th Chapter of the BHAGAVAD GITA, Sri Krishna says: "Fearlessness, sincerity, assiduity in devotion, generosity, self-restraint= , piety, and alms-givings, study, mortification, and rectitude; harmlessness, veracity, and freedom from anger, resignation, equanimity, and not speaking of the faults of others, universal compassion, modesty, and mildness; patience, power, fortitude, and purity, discretion, dignity, unrevengefulness, and freedom from conceit=AF these are the marks of him wh= ose virtues are of a godlike character, O son of Bharata. Those, O son of Pritha, who are born with demoniacal dispositions are marke= d by hypocrisy, pride, anger, presumption, harshness of speech, and ignorance= . The destiny of those whose attributes are godlike is final liberation, whil= e those of demoniacal dispositions, born to the Asuras' lot, [suffer] continued bondage to mortal birth; grieve not." It is for this reason that the THREE FUNDAMENTALS of THEOSOPHY are to be learned, tested, and applied to anything that is claimed to be theosophical or even non-theosophical. For the mentally lazy and those who are "obtuse," Theosophy has nothing to offer. For those who are in search of TRUTH and the answers to the gaps of knowledge that our present-day education or erudition displays (in the sciences. academies and religious bodies everywhere) THEOSOPHY offers the HISTORY [S D I 267 top] of all antiquity and the cumulated research of the greatest Sages of the World -- it progenitors, supervisors and continuing mentors: The Masters of Wisdom. What are the BASICS ? In the past 130 years we have still got "originals" of the TEXTS as well as photographic copies of those "originals," and, in addition, we have had these "originals" placed on Internet and CDs, so anyone can have and use them. We have a catalog of laws, facts truths which anyone can verify - which demand no credulity and seek no "faith" or masses of "adherents." Everything rests upon a FOUNDATION. What of this does THEOSOPHY offer? If we were (all who are interested) to meet together at one of the ancient circular theatres where the "stage" is in the center we might expect to fin= d 1 In the center of the stage a Golden glow indicating the Ancient Lodge. We are not able to discern anyone clearly therein through that curtain of light. 2 At its rim (for us to see) are H P B, Olcott and Judge. They hold the "original writings and teachings of THEOSOPHY" in their hands. To them as assistants came Subba Row, Damodar, Jasper Niemand, the Keightleys, Mead, Crooks, Cleather, and others. 3 The rest of us - their students sit in the circular rows around that "Stage" 4 We all have got the same books available to us as they were originally written. Those who have and use them sit near the front facing the stage. Those who fail to study or use corrupted books and texts sit further back. 5 As we move around the seats and go towards the back we may note in this imaginary forum that not all have the original texts, or "foundation" books, or do not read or study them very often. They are responsible for their various "opinions," confusingly dispensed. 6 Some we note have substituted for the basic books, interpretations and manuals that " abbreviate" or "explain." And it is they who have decide= d to consider the authors of those altered texts as "authorities" valuable an= d sound, but, but they have not verified this for themselves. Their carelessness or laziness and lack of accuracy, is passed on and usually given great importance until such time as someone confronts it with facts and truths. By that time it is painful to have to retract and redefine one's so far well supported opinions. [In the world of Science, we find the Darwinists and those who foreshorten the vast periods of time needed for actual change and evolutionary development are at war with the facts of tim= e provided by current discoveries that indicate a far vaster antiquity for eras and events. It is a problem that has to do with the honesty and character of those involved. Not with the actual facts of discovery, which in some cases, we find have been suppressed or concealed -- as earlier hypotheses and theories are found progressively invalidated.] 7. The whole theatre cannot hold the rest of those interested in THEOSOPHY who have come to it through the agency of the books in Libraries, talks, the Media presentations, Internet and recordings on CDs. But this number has expanded the penetration of theosophical ideas and doctrines enormously. And so on. As we continue our round we find that there are groups forming among those who attend where particular books (not necessarily the "originals") are and have been chosen for that community of members or students, for their selected study and attention. We also notice that the original organization the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY founded Nov. 17, 1875 in New York has become sub-divided. When HPB and Col= . Olcott moved to work in India at the beginning of 1879, it was Col. Olcott who declared that the Headquarters of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY would be wherever he resided. This was accepted (but no Resolution at the Original, Founding Society in New York was ever so passed). There is th reason and basis for a THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY that calls itself "International" and uses "Adyar" as a HQ. It has a number of National Sections, and many independent Branches and even independent THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETIES. [The London Lodge (President: Mr. A. P. Sinnett), and the T S Lodge in Edmonton, Canada, are an example of this kind of affiliated independence. Some Sections have been excommunicated by the Adyar H Q: The USA, Germany, Denmark, Canada, etc...] There is another THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY with branches in America, and elsewhere, that refers to "Pasadena" as their H Q. There is a dispersed an= d informal group that call themselves "associates of U L T," and while they have a number of independent Lodges and Study Groups, they have no "center.= " They employ the "Original Teachings of THEOSOPHY" as a basis for their common work and progressing study. Notice ought to be made for comparison of current Magazines published by th= e various T S es. A comparison of their articles and contents reveals the nature of the force behind those efforts. Additionally several E-ZINES (Internet Magazines), such as THEOS-WORLD, AQUARIAN THEOSOPHIST, are being regularly issued. While this "situation report" is obviously brief, shortened and inaccurate in detail, it can give us something to think about. The main idea to dwell on I think is: "Am I studying "original" THEOSOPHY or am I studying something filtered by another's thoughts and ideas? Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: M. Sufilight Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 12:33 AM To: Subject: Re: Gregory's biggest mistake in life Hallo all, My views are: Thanks to Dallas and other replies. And now we have: CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THE ESOTERICAL AND THEOSOPHICAL TEACHINGS (PART 2) " Q: How is it known to the participants of such a group as to how accurate or meaningful their theosophical 'work' is? A: There are no two ways about it. Either it is known to their teacher, if one still exists, in which case he will remedy defects, and they will not be perpetuated. Or it is totally repetitious, and the effort has become an - administrative - one. This happen when there has been no true succession of teaching, so that there is nobody at the top sufficiently developed to be able to diagnose the situation. In this case the group has become to a greater or lesser degree a prisoner of the automatism of the formal world. Q: Does a teacher appear in a (theosophical) group which already exists, or does he/she not? A: He may or he may not. He comes to fulfil a law. He may revalidate the working bases of a derelict group. Q: Why does he do this? A: In response to an inexorable need. Q: Does the group always recognose him? A: Certain people in general do. It will depend upon the apparatus of perception which they have. The onus on him is not primarily to preach, but to make himself available to the perception of the people. Q: Does he need the support of such groups? A: Both parties can benefit, because there is no such thing as solitary work. EVEN a derelict (theosophical group) can be producing semi- consciously a quantity of necessary force ('substance') which we might say goes waste unless it is correctly used. Q: How can we account for the dramatic rise of teachers who purport to have been 'called' to bring, for instance, spirituality to mankind? A: Do not generalise about this. One form is the result of physical laws. A group of people (ie. perhaps socalled theosophists) can engender necessary force (substance) already mentioned. (Added by Sufilight: This force could for instance be called 'promotion of the teaching'). They do not know what to do with it; they may not even really know what it is. An individual, who has another development analogous to their own, may contact this force (distance has no relevance here) and make use of it. Now we have the amusing and also tragic situation in which (a) force is raised by a certain group, (b) it is perceived and employed by someone else= , (c) this temporarily reinforces, through vampirism, the 'teacher' who becomes prominent, (d) because of the similarity of this person with their own defective tradition (also sometimes called pseudo-theosophical teaching), the victim group thin= k that he is their teacher, (e) they join him, not realising that he seems to be like them because he is using their own nutrition! (Note added by Sufilight: I can think of at least one theosophical teacher following this pattern. - - - Today this pattern is a nuisance and some Seekers do not realise this and They even follow a repetitous pattern. Ie. a pattern which is not relating itself to the Time, place, people involved and spiritual needs of the process) What you call a movement is part of an organic, natural development. It takes on a local colour because of the culture in which it grows (ie. also "the global planetary culture", which in a sense is local). It cannot be imported together with the local colouring. It may attain a Certain degree of necessary force in its location, but its spread into othe= r areas is conditional upon to vital factors: (1) That it takes root naturally and becomes naturalised in the fresh culture. (2) That there is a need for it in the new culture. The latter condition is operative only when there is a teacher, adequately comminsioned to provide a formulation in that area. ******* from M. Sufilight =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Re: Corresponding terms in all religions and philosophies Dear Friend: In ISIS UNVEILED and the SECRET DOCTRINE HPB does this kind of comparison and equivalence all the time. Antique THEOSOPHY is the permanent and basic root of all religions and philosophies. To bring this home to modern research and thought HPB spent great time tracing the historical roots of most of the great religions, sciences and philosophies and also shows how currently they still agree on basics. Yahoo! Groups Links =20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20 From auspirograph@yahoo.com Mon Aug 08 09:01:39 2005 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8415 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2005 16:01:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Aug 2005 16:01:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.201.59) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Aug 2005 16:01:37 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.65] by n6.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Aug 2005 16:00:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by mailer2.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Aug 2005 16:00:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.80] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Aug 2005 16:00:29 -0000 X-Sender: auspirograph@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 550 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2005 15:51:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Aug 2005 15:51:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.201.70) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Aug 2005 15:51:58 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.64] by n5.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Aug 2005 15:48:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by mailer1.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Aug 2005 15:48:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.88] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Aug 2005 15:48:54 -0000 Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 15:48:51 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000c01c59c1c$7f85ce20$02deb3d1@DALLAS> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1289 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-Originating-IP: 216.155.201.70 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 144.138.3.87 From: "Spiro" Subject: Re: The Trouble in Paris - Historic Question X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=123058641; y=rcV7Ab1WASE_C6PgtiupXBPYWXXMh7Xr4H7h24Gru7IIZA6ZxLd2 X-Yahoo-Profile: auspirograph X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 08 Aug 2005 16:00:26 -0000 Hi Dallas, Thanks for these references. Just what I was looking for and very useful. Hope all is well with you... Regards Spiro --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: > 8/8/2005 5:34 AM > > Dear Spiro: > > Re: Paris Lodge THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY > troubles 1888-89 > > Something is given in the pages of LUCIFER, Le LOTUS BLEU and La REVUE > THEOSOPHIQUE around that period. Also some references may be had in the > book: > > The THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT 91875-1925) > > (available on line through Caldwell Archives.) > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > ======================================== > > -----Original Message----- > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Spiro > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 11:54 PM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Theos-World The Trouble in Paris - Historic Question > > Hi all, > > In a letter by HPB around 1888-1889 (can't remember which), she > mentions some problems with the Paris branch of the Theosophical > Society. I've tried to search for this background but have drawn a blank. > > Does anyone know or can direct me towards some reading material/link > please. > > Thanks > Spiro > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links From dalval14@... Tue Aug 09 04:36:24 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41993 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2005 11:36:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Aug 2005 11:36:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Aug 2005 11:36:23 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.143] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E2SOq-00073l-BU; Tue, 09 Aug 2005 07:36:12 -0400 To: Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 04:35:54 -0700 Message-ID: <000d01c59cd6$85b5dd70$0292b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <20050808063120.75234.qmail@...> X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7905477df69ff5193d60a76d708c71e4c0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.61 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: Velikovksy's Science X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=ZId4sxg8VTqXkf0AjrBX5X-WiStwFtt0feAAkQASS61LPA X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 8/9/2005 4:20 AM Thanks Cass: Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: Cass Silva Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005=20 To:=20 Subject: Velikovksy's Science ON PREDICTION IN SCIENCE=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D PART 2 =3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPART 2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D CELESTIAL MECHANICS I had a chapter on the subject at the end of WORLDS IN COLLISION, but I kep= t those galleys from inclusion in the book and instead I included only one or two paragraphs=97and the only italicized words in the book are found in them=97namely:=20 =91The accepted celestial mechanics, notwithstanding the many calculations that have been carried out to many decimal places, or verified by celestial motions, stands only ;/ the sun, the source of light, warmth, and other radiation produced by fusion and fission of atoms, is as a whole an electrically neutral body, and also if the planets, in their usual orbits, are neutral bodies.=94=20 I showed how the events I reconstructed could have occurred in the frame of the classical celestial mechanics, but coming from the field of studying th= e working of the brain=97I was the first to claim that electrical disturbance= s lie at the basis of epileptic seizures=97 I was greatly surprised to find t= hat astronomy, the queen of sciences, lives still in the pre-Faraday age, not even in the time of kerosene lamps, but of candles and oil.=20 It was, of course, known since Gilbert that the Earth is a magnet, and G. E= . Hale discovered that solar spots are magnetic and that the Sun possesses a general magnetic field. But this did not keep Einstein, a few years later, from accounting for the Mercurial precession by a new principle instead of first eliminating the effect of the newly discovered solar magnetic field o= n Mercury=92s movement. I claimed the existence of a magnetosphere above the terrestrial ionosphere -- it was discovered by Van Allen in 1958; I claimed that this magnetospher= e reaches as far as the lunar orbit=97 it was discovered by Ness in 1964; I claimed that the interplanetary space is magnetic and the field centers on the Sun and rotates with it=97 it was discovered in 1960 by simultaneous observation of Pioneer V and Explorer X, one travelling around the Sun and the other around the Earth; I claimed that Jupiter sends out radio noises, = 5 and actually offered in writing in June 1954 to Albert Einstein to stake ou= r protracted debate as to whether, besides inertia and gravitation, electromagnetic interactions participate in celestial mechanics: Does or does not Jupiter send out radio noises?=97 and Einstein wrote his note of disbelief on the margin of my letter. But on the 8th of April, 1955, nine days before his death, I brought to him the news that Jupiter noises were discovered by chance; those who detected them for long weeks disbelieved their find and the Jovian origin of the noises. Lately I lecture frequently for physical and engineering societies and faculties, and I challenge those in the audience who believe that a magneti= c body can move through a magnetic field without being affected by it to lift their hands.=20 Can Jupiter with its immense magnetosphere move in the magnetic field centered on the Sun, if only of a few gammas, without being affected by it?= =20 Can the satellites of Jupiter plow through the magnetosphere of the giant planet without being affected by it? On no occasion I saw a hand raised. Only a few weeks ago, preliminary reports in SCIENCE on the Pioneer X December flyby recorded a series of unusual electromagnetic phenomena involving Jupiter and its satellites.=20 At about the same time we read of radio noises for the first time detected from a comet, as Kohoutek was approaching its perhelion. (Incidentally, contrary to the unanimous opinion expressed by astronomical authorities, with which I disagreed, Kohoutek did not develop into the greatest celestia= l spectacle of the century.) The role of electromagnetic interaction between = a comet and the Sun was another subject of my detailed discussion, oral and written, with Einstein. With the discovery of quasars, magnetic binaries, black holes and colliding galaxies sending out agonized radio signals, the electromagnetic nature of the universe is no more in question.=20 Space is not empty either. I feel like calling Ren=E9 Descartes from the La= nd of Shades to present his appeal, because as late as 1949, a year before the publication of WORLDS IN COLLISION, the verdict was, according to the philosopher Butterfield, that =93The clean and comparatively empty Newtonia= n skies ultimately carried the day against a Cartesian universe packed with matter and agitated with whirlpools, for the existence of which scientific observation provided no evidence.=94 But ten years later we read: =93Gone forever is any earthbound notion of sp= ace as a serene thoroughfare . . . . a fantastic amount of cosmic traffic (hot gaseous clouds, deadly rays, bands of electricity) rushes by at high speed, circles, crisscrosses, and collides.=94 How could I produce this score of correct prognostications?=20 Professor V. Eshleman of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, obviously astounded= , wrote on September II, 1970, to a news-writer=97 =93I am completely mystifi= ed as to how Velikovsky reaches his conclusions. It is almost as though he does i= t through will power alone. . . .=94 But could I, by will power alone, initia= te Jupiter=92s noises? There is no mystery. My advance claims are a =93natural fallout from a sing= le central idea,=94 in the words of one student of the affair. Reading of my w= ork is a prerequisite for understanding the way I reach my conclusions. SUPPRESSION BY SCIENTISTS Yet not a few upheld the scientific method by absolving themselves from reading the book they discuss and occasionally suppress. These days one planetarium astronomer authoritatively pronounced my score of correct predictions as compatible with the law of averages and added that I would have been unfortunate if my score were any less. Seven years earlier the same planetarium astronomer was the mastermind in the refusal of the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia to permit the oldest astronomical association of America, the Ritten-house Society, to convene at their traditional meeting place in the Institute when they invited me to address their members=97a story that had many reverberations. The behavior of the scientific community was and partly still is a psychological phenomenon. The spectacle of the scientific establishment going through all the paces of self degradation has nothing with which to compare in the past, though every time a new leaf in science was turned ove= r there was a minor storm, and it is not without precedent that most authoritative voices in science usually served to discourage the trail blazers=97think of Lord Kelvin, unsurpassed authority of later Victorian da= ys, who rejected Clerk Maxwell=92s electromagnetic theory, demeaned Guglieimo Marconi=92s radiotelegraphy, and till his death in 1907 proclaimed Wilhelm Konrad Roentgen for a charlatan. But it is without precedent that the entire scientific community should be aroused to very base actions of compelling, by organized boycott, the publisher [Macmillan] of a book checked and rechecked before the printing t= o discontinue its publication, to destroy the entire stock, and to punish the editor of twenty-five years service by dismissal.=20 This community offered a united front of academic and scientific societies, of faculties, of scientific and semi-scientific press against a solitary figure whose only iniquity was to present views carefully arrived at in mor= e than a decade of work, supplied with all references to enable the reader to check multitudinous sources, with never a jest or a harsh word against thos= e with whom the non-conformist disagreed, with no new terms introduced, in lucid language, though foreign to me, never given to misunderstanding. Now, after twenty-four years, and more than seventy-two printings in the English language alone, forty of which were in hard cover, my WORLDS IN COLLISION, as well as EARTH IN UPHEAVAL, do not require any revisions, whereas all books on terrestrial and celestial sciences of 1950 need complete rewriting.=20 The opposition and the indecent forms it took are a psychological phenomeno= n and cannot be explained by a mere desire to protect the vested interests.=20 The forms the suppression assumed are so multiple and sometimes ingenious, but mostly crassly rough and often dishonest, that only having been trained in recognizing various forms of resistance with which analytical patients react when unwelcome truth is about to reveal itself, could I understand th= e unique spectacle which I observe now for a full generation. If a sociologist endeavors to divide the guilt between the establishment an= d the non-conformist, and claims neutrality, then he did not learn to discern objectivity from neutrality.=20 And if a professor of astronomy puts passages in my book which are not ther= e and then makes the class of tuition-paying students roar by attacking those passages, this roar may still sound in his ears when there will be no merriment in it.=20 In these antics, an experienced psychoanalyst recognizes a state of anxiety= . =93We are shaking in our shoes=97 but with laughter=94 wrote an early criti= c, Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin of Harvard.=20 Actually the astronomers of that university must have felt threatened by th= e book and even an entire generation later, acting as if in peril, a Nobel prize winner wrote to a high school girl to close WORLDS IN COLLISION and not to open it again in her lifetime, only to admit three years later to th= e editor of PENS=C9E that he never himself read the book. Those who act almos= t suicidally should keep their fingers on the pulse of time. In the behavior of the scientific establishment the desperate resistance that bedevils human society found its expression. As members of the human race, we are afraid to face our past. But as Santayana wrote, those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it and=97this time, I am afra= id, in a man-made thermonuclear holocaust. My work today is no longer heretical. Most of it is incorporated in textbooks and it does not matter whether credit is properly assigned. My work is not concluded=97I only opened new vistas.=20 The young and the imaginative flock in an ever increasing stream. Numerous colleges and universities in this country hold courses or seminars on my work, include my books among the required readings and have theses on my ideas written for graduate degrees.=20 Those who stopped thinking since graduating will claim authority, soon to find that they are left without a following. I may have even caused retardation in the development of science by making some opponents cling to their unacceptable views only because such views may contradict Velikovsky -- like sticking to the completely unsupportable hypothesis of greenhouse effect as the cause of Venus=92 heat, even in violation of the Second Law o= f Thermodynamics. This spring, besides this Symposium on my work, two more international symposia dedicated to the subject will take place without my having any par= t in initiating them. Those who prefer name calling to argument, wit to deliberation, or those who point a triumphant finger at some detail that they misinterpret, yet claim that my entire work ought to collapse, and boast of their own exclusiveness as a caste of specialists=97 as if I claim= ed omniscience and infallibility and as if I wrote a sacred book that falls du= e to some possible error=97 are not first in their art. I shall quote Giordan= o Bruno, and one of the organizers of this symposium, Professor Owen Gingerich, Harvard=92s historian of science, is well familiar with Bruno=92= s description of how his contemporaries used to conduct a dispute: =93With a sneer, a smile, a certain discrete malice, that which they have n= ot succeeded in proving by argument=97 nor indeed can it be understood by themselves=97 nevertheless by these tricks of courteous disdain they preten= d to have proven, endeavouring not only to conceal their own patently obvious ignorance but to cast it on to the back of their adversary. For they disput= e not in order to find or even to seek Truth, but for victory, and to appear the more learned and strenuous upholders of a contrary opinion. Such person= s should be avoided by all who have not a good breastplate of patience.=94 After all, it really does not matter so much what Velikovsky=92s role is in the scientific revolution that goes now across all fields from astronomy with emphasis on charges, plasmas and fields, to zoology with its study of violence in man.=20 But this symposium in the frame of the AAAS is, I hope, a retarded recognition that by name-calling instead of testing, by jest instead of reading and meditating, nothing is achieved. None of my critics can erase the magnetosphere, nobody can stop the noises of Jupiter, nobody can cool off Venus, and nobody can change a single sentence in my books. References 1. Lucretius, ON THE NATURE OF THINGS, translated by C. Bailey (Oxford= , 1924; earlier ed., 1910) Bk. II, lines 23ff.: =93For all things that fall through the water and thin air, these things must need quicken their fall i= n proportion to their weights, just because the body of water and the thin nature of air cannot check each thing equally, but give place more quickly when overcome by heavier bodies. But, on the other hand, the empty void cannot on any side, at any time, support anything, but rather, as its own nature desires, it continues to give place; wherefore all things must needs be borne on through the calm void, moving at equal rate with unequal weights.=94=20 2. Plutarch, OF THE FACE APPEARING IN THE ORB OF THE MOON, translated by W. Goodwin, (Boston, 1898) 246f. =93They who place the moon lowest say t= hat her distance from us contains six and fifty of the earth=92s semi-diameters= , that is, that she is six and fifty times as far from us as we are from the centre of the earth; which is forty thousand stadia, according to those tha= t make their computation moderately. Therefore the sun is above forty million= s and three hundred thousand stadia distant from the moon; so far is she from the sun by reason of gravity, and so near does she approach to the earth. S= o that if substances are to be distinguished by places, the portion and regio= n of the earth challenges to itself the moon, which by reason of neighborhood and proximity, has the right to be reputed and reckoned among the terrestrial natures of bodies.=94 Cf. Isaac Newton, MATHEMATICAL PRINCIPLES= OF NATURAL PHILOSOPHY, translated by A. Motte, 1729, revised by F. Cajori, Berkeley, 1946. Book III: THE SYSTEM OF THE WORLD. Proposition IV, Theorem IV, p. 407: The mean distance of the moon from the earth in syzygies in semi-diameters of the earth is, acc. to Ptolemy and most astronomers, 59; acc. to Vendelin and Huggins, 60... and to Tycho, 56=BD...=94=20 3. Pliny, NATURAL HISTORY, II. 23. =93Some person may suppose that the= se stars [comets] are permanent and that they move through their proper orbits= , but that they are only visible when they recede from the sun...=94=20 4. O. Neugebauer, THE EXACT SCIENCES IN ANTIQUITY (Princeton Universit= y Press, 1952), p. 146.=20 5. I. Velikovsky, =93On the Advance Claim of Jupiter=92s Radio-noises,= =94 Kronos III. :1 (Aug., 1977), pp. 27-30.=20 ----------------------------------------------------------- In order to bring into proper focus the significance of correct prediction in science, I offer at the start a short survey of the most celebrated cases, and it is not by chance that almost all of them come from the domain of astronomy. These cases are spectacular and, with one or two exceptions, are well known. The story of scientific =93clairvoyance=94 in modern astronomy starts with Johannes Kepler, a strange case and little known. When Galileo, using the telescope he had built after the model of an instrument invented by a Danis= h craftsman, discovered the satellites circling Jupiter, Kepler became very eager to see the satellites himself and begged in letters to have an instrument sent to Prague; Galileo did not even answer him. Next, Galileo made two more discoveries, but before publishing them in a book, he assured himself of priority by composing cryptograms, not an uncommon procedure in those days: statements written in Latin were deliberately reduced to the letters of which the sentences were composed, or, if the author of the cryptogram so wished, the letters were re-assembled to make a different sentence. The second way was chosen by Galileo when he thought he had discovered that Saturn is =93a triple=94 planet, having observed appendices= on both sides of Saturn, but not having discerned that they were but a ring around the planet, a discovery reserved for Christian Huygens in 1659, half a century later. Kepler tried to read the cryptogram of letters recombined into a non-revealing sentence, but did not succeed. He offered as his solution: =93Salute, fiery twin, offspring of Ma= rs=94 (=93Salve, umbistineum geminatum Martia proles=94 ). Of this, Arthur Koestl= er in The Sleepwalkers (1959) wrote (p. 377): =93He [Kepler] accordingly believed that Galileo had discovered two moons around Mars.=94 But Galileo did not discover them and they remained undiscovered for more than two hundred fift= y years. Strangely, Koestler passes over the incident without expressing wonder at Kepler=92s seeming prescience. As I have shown in Worlds in Collision (=93The Steeds of Mars=94 ) the poet= s Homer and Virgil knew of the trabants of Mars, visualized as his steeds, named Deimos (Terror) and Phobos (Rout). Kepler referred to the satellites of Mars as being =93burning=94 or =93flaming=94 , the same way the ancients= had referred to the steeds of Mars. Ancient lore preserved traditions from the time when Mars, Ares of the Greeks, was followed and preceded by swiftly circling satellites with their blazing manes. =93When Mars was very close to the earth, its two trabants w= ere visible. They rushed in front of and around Mars; in the disturbances that took place, they probably snatched some of Mars=92 atmosphere, dispersed as= it was, and appeared with gleaming manes=94 (Worlds in Collision, p. 230). Next, Galileo made the discovery that Venus shows phases, as the Moon does. This time he secured his secret by locking it in a cryptogram of a mere collection of letters=97so many A=92s, so many B=92s, and so on. Kepler aga= in tried to read the cryptogram and came up with the sentence: =93Macula rufa = in Jove est gyratur mathem etc.=94 which in translation reads: =93There is a r= ed spot in Jupiter which rotates mathematically.=94 The wondrous thing is: how could Kepler have known of the red spot in Jupiter, then not yet discovered? It was discovered by J. D. Cassini in the 1660=92s, after the time of Kepler and Galileo. Kepler=92s assumption that Galileo had discovered a red spot in Jupiter amazes and defies every statistical chance of being a mere guess. But the possibility is not excluded that Kepler found the information in some Arab author or some othe= r source, possibly of Babylonian or Chinese origin. Kepler did not disclose what the basis of his reference to the red spot of Jupiter was =97 he could not have arrived at it either by logic and deduction or by sheer guesswork. A scientific prediction must follow from a theory as a logical consequence. Kepler had no theory on that. It is asserted that the Chinese observed sola= r spots many centuries before Galileo did with his telescope. Observing solar spots, the ancients could have conceivably observed the Jovian red spot, too. Jesuit scholars traveled in the early 17th century to China to study Chinese achievements in astronomy. Kepler was well versed in ancient writings, also knowledgeable in medieval Arab authors; for instance, he quoted Arzachel to support the view that in ancient times Babylon must have been situated two and a half degrees more t= o the north, and this on the basis of the data on the duration of the longest and shortest days in the year as registered in ancient Babylon.1=20 Jonathan Swift, in his Gulliver=92s Travels (1726) tells of the astronomers= of the imaginary land of the Laputans who asserted they had discovered that th= e planet Mars has =93two lesser stars, or satellites, which revolve about Mar= s, whereof the innermost is distant from the center of the primary planet exactly three of [its] diameters, and the outermost Five; the former revolves in the space of ten hours, and the latter in twenty-one-and-a-half= ; so that the squares of their periodical times are very near in the same proportion with the cubes of their distance from the center of Mars, which evidently shows them to be governed by the same law of gravitation that influences the other heavenly bodies.=94 About this passage a literature of no mean number of authors grew in the years after 1877, when Asaph Hall, a New England carpenter turned astronomer, discovered the two trabants of Mars. They are between five and ten miles in diameter. They revolve on orbits close to their primary and in very short times: actually the inner one, Phobos, makes more than three revolutions in the time it takes Mars to complete one rotation on its axis; and were there intelligent beings on Mars they would need to count two different months according to the number of satellites (this is no special case =97 Jupiter has twelve moons and Saturn ten*), and also observe one mo= on ending its month three times in one Martian day. It is a singular case in the solar system among the natural satellites that a moon completes one revolution before its primary finishes one rotation. Swift ascribed to the Laputans some amazing knowledge=97actually he himsel= f displayed, it is claimed, an unusual gift of foreknowledge. The chorus of wonderment can be heard in the evaluation of C. P. Olivier in his article =93Mars=94 written for the Encyclopedia Americana (1943): =93When it is noted how very close Swift came to the truth, not only in mer= ely predicting two small moons but also the salient features of their orbits, there seems little doubt that this is the most astounding =92prophecy=92 of= the past thousand years as to whose full authenticity there is not a shadow of doubt.=94 The passage in Kepler is little known=97Olivier, like other writers on the subject of Swift=92s divination, was unaware of it, and the case of Swift= =92s prophecy appears astounding: the number of satellites, their close distance= s to the body of the planet, and their swift revolutions are stated in a book printed one hundred and fifty years to the year before the discovery of Asaph Hall. Let us examine the case. Swift, being an ecclesiastical dignitary and a scholar, not just a satirist, could have learned of Kepler=92s passage abou= t two satellites of Mars; he could also have learned of them in Homer and Virgil where they are described in poetic language (actually, Asaph Hall named the discovered satellites by the very names the flaming trabants of Mars were known by from Homer and Virgil); and it is also not inconceivable that Swift learned of them in some old manuscript dating from the Middle Ages and relating some ancient knowledge from Arabian, or Persian, or Hindu= , or Chinese sources. To this day an enormous number of medieval manuscripts have not seen publication and in the days of Newton (Swift published Gulliver=92s Travels in the year Newton was to die), as we know from Newton= =92s own studies in ancient lore, for every published tome there was a multiplicity of unpublished classical, medieval, and Renaissance texts. That Swift knew Kepler=92s laws, he himself gave testimony, and this in the very passage that concerns us: =93. . . so that the squares of their periodical times are very near in the same proportion with the cubes of their distance from the center of Mars=94 is the Third Law of Kepler. But even if we assume that Swift knew nothing apart from the laws of Kepler to make his guess, how rare would be such a guess of the existence of two Martian satellites and of their short orbits and periods? As to their number, in 1726 there were known to exist: five satellites of Saturn, four of Jupiter, one of Earth, and none of Venus. Guessing, one could reasonably say: none, one, two, three, four, or five. The chance of hitting on the right Figure was one in six, or the chance of any one side of a die=92s com= ing up in a throw. The smallness of the guessed satellites would necessarily follow from their not having been discovered in the age of Newton. Their proximity to the parent planet and their short periods of revolution were but one guess, not two, by anybody who knew of the work of Newton and Kepler. The nearness of the satellites to the primary could have been assumed on the basis of what was known about the satellites of Jupiter and Saturn, lo, one of the Galilean (or Medicean) satellites of Jupiter, revolves around the giant planet in I day 18.5 hours (the satellite closest to Jupiter was discovered in 1892 by Barnard and is known as the =93fifth satellite=94 in order of discovery; it revolves around Jupiter, a planet ten thousand times the size of Mars, in 1 1.9 hours). The three satellites of Saturn discovered by Cassini before the days of Swift - Tethys, Dione and Rhea - revolve respectively in I day 21.3 hours, 2 days 17 hours, and 4 days 12.4 hours. (Mimas and Enceladus, discovered by Herschelin 1789, revolve in 22. 6 hours and I day 8.9 hours.) The far removed satellites of Jupiter were not yet discovered in the days o= f Newton and Swift. It remains to compare the figures of Swift with those of Hall: there was no true agreement between what the former wrote in his novel and what the latter found through his telescope. For Deimos, Swift=92s figure, expressed= in miles from the surface of Mars, is 18,900 miles; actually it is 12,500 miles; Swift gave its revolution time as 21.5 hours=97actually it is 30.3 hours. For Phobos, Swift=92s figures are 10,500 miles from the surface and = 10 hours revolution period, whereas the true Figures are 3,700 miles and 7.65 hours. Remarkable remains the fact that for the inner satellite Swift assumed a period of revolution, though not what it is, but shorter than the Martian period of rotation, which is true. However, Swift did not know the rotational period of Mars and therefore he was not aware of the uniqueness of his figure. If he were to calculate as an astronomer should, he would either have decreased the distance separating the inner satellite from Mars - a distance for which he gave thrice its true value - or increased its revolution period to comply with the Keplerian laws by assuming the specific weight of Mars as comparable with that of Earth. But Swift had no ambitions toward scientific inquiry in his satirical novel. References 1. The reference is found in the collected works of Kepler (Astronomic= a opera omnia, ed. C. Frisch, vol. VI, p. 557) published in 1866.=20 =20 From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Aug 09 04:36:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 29688 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2005 11:36:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Aug 2005 11:36:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Aug 2005 11:36:41 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.143] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E2SP6-00073l-VV; Tue, 09 Aug 2005 07:36:27 -0400 To: Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 04:35:54 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01c59cd6$8f9ea380$0292b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <20050808063240.48919.qmail@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79885b4cd6930718af714e822e78d2afa7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.61 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Velikovksy's P2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=fKENPxfy2TebYMnsZHruzSF0mcj_qb-Up4JCOQPG-PMroQ X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 8/9/2005 2:55 AM Dear Cass Who wrote this (was it Velikovsky ? and Where?) excellent critique that reveals how much modern claimants to knowledge have culled from the ancient= s and failed to give them credit? At least we can say after reading HPB's works that she failed in that. I have always admired the Velikovsky books. Dallas =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Cass Silva Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 11:33 PM To:=20 Subject: Velikovksy's P 2 My Challenge to Conventional Views in Science=20 =20 =93Books written about the solar system before the advent of the space age could as well have been written in Latin or Greek, so dated do they appear to a contemporary reader.=94 Zdenek Kopal - THE SOLAR SYSTEM (Oxford University Press, 1973) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =93In my published books, notwithstanding often repeated allegations, no physical law is ever abrogated or =93temporarily suspended=94; what I offer= ed in them is primarily a reconstruction of events from the historical past.=20 Thus I did not set out to confront the existing views with a theory or hypothesis and to develop it into a competing system.=20 My work is first a reconstruction, not a theory; it is built upon studying the human testimony as preserved in the heritage of all ancient civilizations=97all of them in texts bequeathed beginning with the time man learned to write, tell in various forms the very same narrative that the trained eye of a psychoanalyst could not but recognize as so many variants of the same theme.=20 In hymns, in prayers, in historical texts, in philosophical discourses, in records of astronomical observations, but also in legend and religious myth= , the ancients desperately tried to convey to their descendants, ourselves included, the record of events that took place in circumstances that left = a strong imprint on the witnesses.=20 There were physical upheavals on a global scale in historical times; the grandiosity of the events inspired awe. From the Far East to the Far West=97the Japanese, Chinese and Hindu civilizations; the Iranian, Sumerian= , Assyrian, Babylonian, Hitto-Chaldean, Israelite and Egyptian records; the Etruscan, Attic and Roman theogonies and philosophies; Scandinavian and Icelandic epics; Mayan, Toltec and Olmec art and legends=97all, with no exception, were dominated by the knowledge of events and circumstances that only the most brazen attitude of science could so completely disregard.=20 The scientific community starts its annals with Newton, paying some homage to Copernicus, Kepler and Galileo, unaware that the great ones of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries searched through classical authors of antiquity for their great discoveries.=20 Did not Copernicus strike out the name of Aristarchus of Samos from the introduction to De Revolutionibus before he signed imprimatur on his work?= =20 Did not Tycho Brahe find the compromising theory of the Sun revolving aroun= d the Earth=97but Mercury and Venus circling around the Sun=97in Heracleides = of Pontus, yet announce it as his own?=20 Did not Galileo read of the equal velocity of heavy and light falling bodie= s in Lucretius; 1 did not Newton read in Plutarch of the Moon removed from th= e Earth by fifty-six terrestrial radii and impelled by gravitation to circle around the Earth, the basic postulate of Newton=92s Principia, and 2 did not Halley read in Pliny about comets returning on their orbits?=20=20 3 Then why does modern science disregard the persistent reports of events witnessed and recorded in many languages in the writings of the ancients and also transmitted from generation to generation by communities unable to write, by American Indians, by the people of Lapland, the Voguls of Siberia, the aborigines of tropical Africa, the Tahitians in the South Pacific? Why is theomachy the central theme of all cosmogonical myths?=20 Should not a thinking man pause and wonder why the ancients in both hemispheres worshipped planetary gods; why temples were erected to them, an= d some are still standing; why sacrifices, even human sacrifices, were brough= t to them?=20 Why was Saturn or Cronos or Brahma the supreme deity to be replaced by Jupiter of the Romans, Zeus of the Greeks, Ormuzd of the Iranians, Marduk o= f the Babylonians, Shiva of the Hindus, Ammon of the Egyptians?=20 Why did the planet Venus=97Ishtar, Athene, Kukulcan of the Mayas or Quetzalcohuatl of the Toltecs=97become the feared deity, as I saw it omnipresent in Yucatan, where I savored a few days this February, writing this paper?=20 Why is this Morning Star shown in sculpture as a feathered serpent on the grandiose monuments of Uxmal and Chichen Itza, where temples were built, on= e upon the other, if not to commemorate the ages, the last of which was dominated by Huitzilopochtli, Ares of the Greeks, who protected the people of Troy, while Athene clashed with him protecting the Achaean host? Why was Mars of the Romans chosen as the protector of Rome, the greatest empire after the Empire of Heaven (Livy), while Athene gave her name to the capital of Attica, as Tanis to Tunisia?=20 Why were human sacrifices brought in this country by the Pawnee Indians onl= y a few scores of years ago, every fifty-two years connected with the Venus calendar?=20 Why did the Ancient Assyrians mark on tens of thousands of clay tablets, free from any mythological theme, astronomical observations, but all data from before -687 are in contradiction to known values such as the duration of the daily rotation of the Earth, the time of the vernal equinox=97that b= y the way was repeatedly transferred, as was also the beginning of the year=97the ratio of the longest and shortest days of the year, the length o= f the month and of the year and the motion of the planets? The legends and myths clearly point to an astral origin of all ancient religions. The problem that occupied the minds of the Classicists, Meso-american scholars. Orientalists, and students of social anthropology and mythology, was not solved in any one of these disciplines separately. Like the early memory of a single man, so the early memory of the human race belongs into the domain of the student of psychology.=20 Only a philosophically and historically, but also analytically trained mind can see in the mythological subjects their true content=97a mind that learn= ed in long years of exercise to understand the dreams and phantasies of his fellow man. Thus I entered a field that should be at the basis of the natural sciences, not only of the human soul and of racial memories, and soon I observed that the divisions in science are but artificial. I had to cross barriers. How could I do otherwise?=20 Upon the realization that we are unaware of the most fateful events in huma= n history, I had before me the task of explaining this well-known phenomenon of repression, the realization of which could also become crucial to the survival of the victim of amnesia playing with thermonuclear weapons.=20 But before that I had the task of confronting the humanistic heritage with the message of stones and bones=97do geology and paleontology carry the sam= e testimony? I went again from shelf to shelf, once more around the Earth, an= d the record from the bottom of the sea and from the top of the mountains, from the deserts, jungles, tundras, lakes, rivers and waterfalls, told the same story=97documented in every latitude and in every longitude.=20 This evidence is presented in EARTH IN UPHEAVAL, which I kept free from any bit of testimony that can be classified as human heritage.=20 The scenes of devastation, mass extinction of many species in circumstances that are by far in excess of what can be considered as local catastrophe, the simultaneous change of climate all over the globe thirty-four and twenty-seven centuries ago, the drop of the level of the ocean and many other phenomena observed, could not be accounted for but by paroxysms in which the entire Earth was involved. A psychological situation provoked the change in the attitude of the scholarly world with the beginning of the Victorian age.=20 The founders of the sciences of geology=97Buckland, Sedgwick, and Murchinso= n (who gave the classification of formations used today); of vertebrate paleontology=97Cuvier; and of ichthyology=97Louis Agassiz=97never doubted t= hat what they observed was the result of repeated cataclysms in which the entir= e globe partook.=20 Actually, Charles Darwin, observing the destruction of fauna in South America, was convinced that nothing less than the shaking of the entire frame of the Earth could account for what he saw.=20 But the introduction of the principle of uniformitarianism by Charles Lyell= , a lawyer who never had field experience, and the acceptance of it on faith by Charles Darwin, are a psychological phenomenon that I observed again and again.=20 Exactly those who, like Darwin, witnessed the omnipresent shambles of an overwhelming fury of devastation on a continental scale, became the staunchest defenders of the principle of uniformitarianism, that became not just a law, but a principle that grew to a statute of faith in the natural sciences, as if the reasoning that what we do not observe in our time could not have happened in the past can in any measure claim to be philosophicall= y or scientifically true. Obviously, a motive is at play that makes appear as scientific principle what is but wishful thinking.=20 For over a century after Copernicus man did not wish to believe that he lives on an Earth that travels, and Francis Bacon and William Shakespeare were not persuaded by that firebrand, Giordano Bruno, of the truth of the Copemican doctrine.=20 Even much less man wishes to face the fact that he travels on a rock in space on a path that proved to be accident-prone.=20 The victory of Darwin=92s evolution by natural selection over a six-day creation less than six thousand years ago made it appear that evolution, th= e only instrument of which is competition, is the ultimate truth. But by competition for survival or for means of existence, never could such different forms as man and an insect with many legs evolve from the same unicellular form, not even in the six billion years that replaced the biblical six thousand. Mutations were necessary, and today we know that by cosmic and x-rays, by thermal and chemical means=97conditions brought about= in the catastrophes of the past=97massive mutations can be achieved. The pre-1950 astronomy followed the same pseudo-scientific statute of faith= , elevated to a fundamental principle, and made believe that the Earth and other planets travel the same paths for the same six billion years, always repeating the same serene circling.=20 Against this violation of the principle of empiricism in science stood my work. In it I rejected the postulate that the ancients, the Greek philosophers Pythagoras, Heraclitus, Democritus and Plato included (O. Neugebauer in THE EXACT SCIENCES IN ANTIQUITY wonders why Plato is considered anywhere a philosopher of any rank 4) were childish in their claims of repeated world conflagrations, and that the ancients were almost imbeciles in their beliefs.=20 The ancients, the canard goes, believed in the Earth placed on the back of = a tortoise. Thus it is preferred to start science three hundred years ago, an= d my work was pronounced (by those who did not read it) as an act of destruction of the entire edifice of science erected by the giants of science since Copernicus. I offered a series of claims that naturally followed from the reconstruction. In science they are usually called predictions, but I prefe= r to term them advance claims.=20 Thus I claimed that Venus, due to its recent birth and dramatic though shor= t history, must be very hot under the clouds, nearly incandescent, and gives off heat=97it has not reached thermal balance; that it must have every mass= ive atmosphere; that the atmosphere consisted largely of hydrocarbons but that if oxygen is present petroleum fires must be burning=97thus explaining also the present massive carbon dioxide content of the atmosphere; that sulfur and iron (ferruginous pigment) must be present too; and that if the same catalytic process that took place on the Earth when it was enveloped by clouds of Venus=92 origin takes place in Venus=92 own clouds, they must con= sist mainly of organic material infused with sulfur and iron molecules. Further, I considered that Venus was disturbed in its rotation. VENUS Venus was found over 750=B0K. hot=97many metals are incandescent at this temperature=97while the consensus of opinion among astronomers was 17=B0C.,= 3=B0 above the mean annual temperature on Earth. Venus was found rotating slowly and retrogradely. The atmosphere was found very massive, 95 terrestrial pressures near the ground surface, and not reckoning with this possibility, the first Venera probes were crushed. The content of the clouds is still unsolved, but in a paper in the Winter, 1973-74 issue of PENS=C9E, a journa= l dedicated to the reconsideration of my views, I elucidated that the spectra= l features in the ultraviolet, near infrared, infrared and deep infrared can be accounted for by organic matter, and so can the volatility and the index of refraction.=20 Nitrogen gas, expected by all specialists to comprise as much as 90% of the atmosphere, was not found. The enigma of the very rich content of carbon dioxide below the clouds is solved if the combustion of hydrocarbons took and still takes place.=20 I expect that the Venus Mariner X probe of this month will bring us nearer to properly evaluating the content of Venus=92 clouds. But the preliminary report already says that =93the manner in which that planet was born and matured differed basically from that of Earth.=94 An editorial in the New Y= ork Times, commenting on the bands and streaks first discovered by Mariner X, spoke of an =93uncanny similarity=94 to the bands =93in the atmosphere of Jupiter.=94 It added that =93it is a problem that poses a formidable challe= nge to astronomers.=94 There are problems requiring study that were not discussed in WORLDS IN COLLISION because the origin of Venus belongs to the volumes dealing with the earlier catastrophes.=20 How did Venus, in Latin, =93the Newcomer,=94 escape from Jupiter four hundr= ed times more massive?=97 and Lyttleton=92s work gives some idea; or how could Venus be so much heavier per unit of volume than Jupiter?=97 either it was expelled from inner parts of the giant planet, or gases like hydrogen entered into chemical compounds of higher molecular weight.=20 In WORLDS IN COLLISION I suggested that electrical discharges in the atmosphere of ammonia and methane in which Jupiter is rich, would produce hydrocarbons of heavy molecular weight=97an experiment successfully perform= ed ten years later by A. T. Wilson. Further, I envisaged fusion of elements=97like oxygen to sulphur=97in interplanetary discharges. Orbiter and Surveyor probes of the Moon were followed by Apollo probes; and on the historic night of July 21, 1969, when Man stepped on the Moon, I mad= e a series of claims in an article written at the invitation of the NEW YORK TIMES, and spelled out earlier as well in memos to the Space Science Board of the National Academy of Sciences.=20 Strong magnetic resonance, I claimed, would be discovered in lunar rocks an= d lavas, though the Moon itself hardly possesses any magnetic field whatsoever.=20 A steep thermal gradient would be found already a few feet under the surface. Thermo-luminescence would disclose that the Moon was heated considerably only thousands of years ago. Hydrocarbons, preferably of aromatic structure= , would be found in small quantities, but carbides, into which hydrocarbons would transform when heated, in substantial quantities; expressed radioactivity would be detected in lunar soil and rocks; and several more claims.=20 Already following Apollo XI and XII the score was complete. But each of the discoveries=97steep thermal gradient, strong remnant magnetism, recent heat= ing of the lunar surface, carbides and traces of aromatic hydrocarbons, and ric= h radioactivity of the rocks and dust=97 evoked exclamations of surprise and = at best some far fetched, ad hoc hypotheses.=20 Magnetic anomalies, especially where interplanetary bolts fell, and huge enclaves of neon and argon 40 in lunar rocks, were also claimed by me in advance of the findings. The Mars probes disclosed, as I had claimed in WORLDS IN COLLISION, a dead planet that went through enormous cataclysmic events, not unlike the Moon. The =93canali=94 proved to be not the product of intelligent work, but rift= s caused by twisting of strata.=20 Like on the Moon, enormous craters resulted from bubbling, but some formations, especially surrounded with =93rays,=94 resulted, in my view, fr= om interplanetary discharges. When last December [1973] I was invited to address the scientists of the Langley Space Research Center that prepares the June 1976 Viking probes to Mars, I was told of the program and shown the module. I found that my 1945 copyrighted view, printed also in WORLDS IN COLLISION, of the possible abundant presence of argon and neon in the atmosphere of Mars, then a very far-fetched idea, is now incorporated in the program of the 1976 Viking probes.=20 Today, in one of the alternative atmosphere models (the other has nitrogen richly presented -- the same alternative I discussed in WORLDS IN COLLISION), NASA anticipates as much as 33.3% argon in the atmosphere, but, in my opinion, too little=97 666 parts per million =97neon. Actually, in 19= 69 I saw my assumption indirectly confirmed when after I expressed my expectatio= n of rich inclusions of argon and neon in lunar rocks, such enigmatic inclusions were found. I based my expectation on the realization that in th= e eighth century before the present era Mars and the Moon repeatedly came int= o near-contacts. I would speculate that the red color of Mars, due mainly to the ferruginous material acquired from Venus when the latter displaced it from its orbit (i= n the theomachy described in great detail in the Iliad), may partly be due also to an electrical effect in a neon-rich Martian atmosphere.=20 I recommended in my lecture and consultation at Langley Space Research Center several tests not found in their program as it stands now: 1. To study the electrical nature of the sandstorms, occasionally reaching the velocity of one hundred to two hundred miles per hour, in the rarefied atmosphere of the planet.=20 2. To search for strong remnant magnetism of rocks and lavas, not just to photograph soil particles attractable to a magnet. As just explained, iron particles will be found in abundance. In future probes anomalous remnant magnetism will be discovered near places where electrical bolts emerged or fell.=20 3. To search for expressed radioactivity of the rocks and regolith, especially near large circular formations that resulted from interplanetary discharges.=20 4. To investigate the thermal gradient, presumably rather steep, even if only at the depth of two or three feet.=20 5. To perform a thermo-luminescence experiment on glass-like particles in the Martian soil which will disclose a very recent heating of the Martia= n surface; if it were not for the expected radioactivity on Mars, the proper result would be twenty-seven centuries for the last heating.=20 The logic that led me to these conclusions and suggestions was the same tha= t made me make similar advance claims concerning the Moon before the lunar landings. I understand that the program will be dominated by an effort to find out whether there is or there was life on Mars; organic materials will be searched for and I count with the possibility that traces of hydrocarbons may be found in the Martian soil, but almost all hydrocarbons must have turned into carbide rocks by heating; cultures of possible micro-organisms will be investigated for changes in color and for the production of gases. In WORLDS IN COLLISION I compiled descriptions from many sources of a widel= y spread pestilence that accompanied Mars=92 close approaches; it is not excluded that Mars is richly populated by micro-organisms pathogenic to man= . I suggested an inclusion of a microscope in the equipment of Viking and, if possible, of an electron microscope for the study of viruses. I do not discount the probability that the seasonal changes in the color of the Martian surface may be due to seasonal microbial or other low vegetative activity. It is preferable to postpone the second Viking probe, now planned as identical with the first and following it by one month, in order to rework the program and to include the instruments needed for the test I enumerated= . When earlier, a year and a half ago, in August [1972] , I was invited to lecture and consult at Ames Space Research Center (Division of Exobiology), I suggested also that microbial life able to catalyze can possibly be found in Venus=92 clouds, lower forms of insect life on Jupiter, and primitive pl= ant life on Saturn, besides what I said now of Mars. So much for cosmology and also the evolution of life. If I was completely at odds with the cosmogony that had the solar system without history since creation, I was also carrying my heresy into a most sacred field, the holy of holies of science=97celestial mechanics.=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DEND OF PART 1 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 From netemara888@yahoo.com Tue Aug 09 07:59:04 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7336 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2005 14:59:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Aug 2005 14:59:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.201.61) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Aug 2005 14:59:03 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.65] by n8.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Aug 2005 14:59:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by mailer2.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Aug 2005 14:58:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.82] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Aug 2005 14:58:39 -0000 Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 14:58:38 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1739 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 216.155.201.61 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 70.250.176.59 From: "netemara888" Subject: "Freedom at Midnight" , and HPB and Ghandi Ji X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629; y=5MA5qIzlqdX3_JkYjshEYefmCY14WL8Ylu4GjGZ9GrQLkIv1jtE X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Here is a book if you have not read it then you are not a true Indiaphile--don't know if that is a real word but if you love India and the culture and are interested in the break with the British Raj- -this book tells the whole story. It has been touted as one of the best books not only on the subject but also one of the best in the English language. It is a large book and is not new but you won't be able to put it down. I need to reread it again. But anyway, if you look at Ghandi's life--time spent in S. Africa you will see that he was dreadfully familiar with racism in Africa at the hands of the whites and on his home continent. That is enough to spur anybody on to activism. He really did not need to understand anything except that his people were oppressed and did not have "Home rule." Young America understood it when breaking from the Crown. Self-determination is what makes America free and great, and that is what India wanted as well. What they do with it is another thing. I am not saying that British rule was a bad thing. If you've been there you will see that the rail system the Brits and Indians built back when is still being used today and it is a comprehensive system- -but extremely old. More later Netemara PS: When Ghandi went before or visit with HPB in England or India (I forget which) she did not say or make note of anything about his future as the leader of the break. Now, HPB took a lot of heat from critics who said that she was not so psychic because she did not recognize that Ghandi would become this great soul. I say the fact that he saw her might have been what determined what he became. Did anyone else predict Ghandi would become "Ghandi"? I don't think so. Net From ramadoss@gbronline.com Tue Aug 09 08:15:56 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20345 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2005 15:15:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Aug 2005 15:15:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.11) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Aug 2005 15:15:55 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.96.169]) by mta1.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 122363736 for ; Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:15:06 -0500 CDT Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20050809100940.05859050@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:14:37 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5F5D1A2B X-SpamDetect: *: 1.386000 Subject has lots of exclamation marks=1.0,From: does not include a real name=0.3 X-NotAscii: charset=us-ascii; X-Avast: Message is clean X-Originating-IP: 69.9.90.11 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World "Freedom at Midnight" , and HPB and Ghandi Ji X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674; y=NY6lxxothZJJRjGGXsEQ3SDHfVV9HWhexYmUy7rgKwYtc4t77wd8VQ X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 British did everything necessary to ensure supply of raw materials from India. Railroad was the critical link. It is only after Independence, that progress has been rapid and the standard of living of the poorer classes has improved significantly. Today the West is talking about India becoming a Asian Power of the future. mkr At 02:58 PM 08/09/05 +0000, netemara888 wrote: >Self-determination is what makes America free and great, and that is >what India wanted as well. What they do with it is another thing. I >am not saying that British rule was a bad thing. If you've been >there you will see that the rail system the Brits and Indians built >back when is still being used today and it is a comprehensive system- >-but extremely old. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.2/65 - Release Date: 08/07/05 From professorjaya@yahoo.com Tue Aug 09 11:00:11 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: professorjaya@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99371 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2005 18:00:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Aug 2005 18:00:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web60024.mail.yahoo.com) (209.73.178.72) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Aug 2005 18:00:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 56207 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Aug 2005 18:00:02 -0000 Message-ID: <20050809180002.56202.qmail@web60024.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [198.188.96.2] by web60024.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:00:01 PDT Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:00:01 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 209.73.178.72 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Jayananda Hiranandani Subject: Re: Theos-World Greogory’s biggest mistake in life X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=136023466; y=2yVzqqiMb0YeeVDkUkZRuGkKge0aJ1caqiMFc6SluaLNt67uKiRMqg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Everyone: I wish to supplement what Anand Gholap has to say. A PhD. thesis or research in science is by no means final. Many of the difficulties in religion arise from the fact that people come to a conclusion and stop inquiry. This leads to simplicity, and if accompanied by rigidity, it creates problems. This is far from enlightenment, human regeneration or search for truth. T.S. has the maxim "There is No Religion Higher than Truth". It is for a good reason the the T.S. - at least the Adyar T.S. - has in its second objective the promotion of the comparative study of philosophy, science and religion. This is of great value. It is interesting to quote Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner from California Institute of Technology. He says,"Science is a body of knowledge,some of which is nearly certain,a lot which is quite uncertain and NOTHING THAT IS COMPLETELY CERTAIN". Also Freud says, "It is a mistake to believe that a science consists in nothing but conclusively proved propositions, and it is unjust to demand that it should. It is a demand only made by those who feel a craving for authority in some form and a need to replace the religious catechism by something else, even if it be a scientific one." Therefore, whatever debate is there in this forum about Leadbeater, Blavatsky or others should be viewed accordingly. Even Krishnamurti has emphasised that the truth has to be perceived for oneself and not according to Freud, Shankara or some such authority. Krishnamurti once said to discard books, including his, in the search for truth. Jayananda H. Hiranandani Anand Gholap wrote: It is well known fact that students for PhD.D. do research and write thesis mostly to get PhD.D. degree and to prove their ability to do scholarly research. Gregory also did some research and wrote thesis. He earned doctorate because he did some research mostly related to rumors in Leadbeater's life. Till this point what Gregory did was logical and sensible from viewpoint of the candidate for PhD.D. But Gregory made big mistake later. His research on rumors - which formed very small part of the life of Mr. Leadbeater - was published by Gregory as his full biography. In Adyar TS there are large number of members who have PhD.D. or master's degree. Most of these scholars rejected this biography considering it completely misleading as it focused on small part of his life and was published by Gregory as full biography of Mr. Leadbeater. These scholars in Adyar TS and many outside TS also considered this biography as most unscholarly biography. It formed opinion that Gregory does not have capacity to do any objective, scholarly research and his character is not pure enough to place before world accurate facts in balanced manner. So whatever credit Gregory had earned by getting PhD.D. was lost by printing thesis as biography. If he was wise enough, after taking PhD.D. he could have said " thesis is written to get PhD.D, I wrote it and earned doctoral degree. Matter is over, I don't want to discuss that subject" If he had said so, nobody would have ridiculed Gregory or questioned his capacity to do research. But after getting doctoral degree also he published that small part of Leadbeater's life as biography. Result was hundreds of scholars in Theosophical circles and outside ridiculed Gregory, considered his work as unscholarly and came to conclusion that Gregory lacks capacity to do research and he can't present correct picture. So what Gregory earned by getting PhD.D. was lost by publishing thesis as biography. Anand Gholap Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jjhe@charter.net Tue Aug 09 12:38:09 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjhe@charter.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 88534 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2005 19:38:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Aug 2005 19:38:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxsf21.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.28.221) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Aug 2005 19:38:08 -0000 Received: from mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net (mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.143]) by mxsf21.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j79Jc2AZ014469 for ; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 15:38:03 -0400 Received: from 68-185-83-242.dhcp.trlk.ca.charter.com (HELO [127.0.0.1]) (68.185.83.242) by mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 09 Aug 2005 15:38:01 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,93,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1403073763:sNHT20067836" Message-ID: <42F9060A.3020407@charter.net> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:37:46 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20050809180002.56202.qmail@web60024.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050809180002.56202.qmail@web60024.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 209.225.28.221 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: Theos-World Greogorys biggest mistake in life X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106201926 Dear Jayananda Hiranandani, Thank you for your message below. It is indeed important to recognize that science is, as you quote the late physicist, Richard Feynman,"a body of knowledge,some of which is nearly certain,a lot which is quite uncertain and NOTHING THAT IS COMPLETELY CERTAIN." One could also say that science is a methodology. Science seeks certitude through the repeatability of experimental results, and, through the extent that the resulting theories are able to explain the observations. Consequently, if we are to completely accept Feynman's comment, then we must be open to the possibility that the world is really flat after all. However, there is a large gap between what is possible and what is probable--what could be and what is more certainly to be the case. Even science, while remaining open to possibilities, actually works with probabilities. Scientific certitude does not require that all possibilities are answered--only that all the data is accounted for. Regardless of the evidence Dr. Tillett offered (i.e. birth and census records) that CWL was *not* born in 1847, there will always be those who will continue to believe that he was. Regardless of the photographic evidence gathered by the Martian orbiters and landers, there will always be those who will continue to believe that CWL's description of Martian civilization is accurate. In 1976, when the Viking landers broadcasted their pictures of the Martian landscape, I ask a student of CWL's writings how he accounts for the new evidence. He answered me with perfect confidence that CWL's observations are indeed quite accurate, and the Viking landers had proved them to be so. He explained that the Martians did not want their presence known. Therefore, they "created a mayavi" so that the camera, while looking upon a Martian city, would only see a desolate rocky landscape. It is possible that our CWL student is correct: that there really are Martians who can determine what a camera sees. But, where is the evidence? I have known people in the TS who are certain that we will eventually discover that Black magicians, in order to create doubt, had magically altered CWL's birth and census records. I have also known people who are confident that the Martians will eventually pay us a visit and erase all doubt about CWL's clairvoyant abilities. On the other hand, there are also people in this world (scientists among them) who discriminate between what is likely and what is possible. They formulate their views of the world based upon a certitude created from repeated observations and testing. They are not closed to what one might imagine to be possible. However, they also do not confuse what is possible with what is shown by repeated observations and testing to be more likely. Best wishes, Jerry Jayananda Hiranandani wrote: >Dear Everyone: > >I wish to supplement what Anand Gholap has to say. > >A PhD. thesis or research in science is by no means final. Many of the difficulties in religion arise from the fact that people come to a conclusion and stop inquiry. This leads to simplicity, and if accompanied by rigidity, it creates problems. This is far from enlightenment, human regeneration or search for truth. T.S. has the maxim "There is No Religion Higher than Truth". > >It is for a good reason the the T.S. - at least the Adyar T.S. - has in its second objective the promotion of the comparative study of philosophy, science and religion. This is of great value. > >It is interesting to quote Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner from California Institute of Technology. He says,"Science is a body of knowledge,some of which is nearly certain,a lot which is quite uncertain and NOTHING THAT IS COMPLETELY CERTAIN". > >Also Freud says, "It is a mistake to believe that a science consists in nothing but conclusively proved propositions, and it is unjust to demand that it should. It is a demand only made by those who feel a craving for authority in some form and a need to replace the religious catechism by something else, even if it be a scientific one." > >Therefore, whatever debate is there in this forum about Leadbeater, Blavatsky or others should be viewed accordingly. Even Krishnamurti has emphasised that the truth has to be perceived for oneself and not according to Freud, Shankara or some such authority. Krishnamurti once said to discard books, including his, in the search for truth. > >Jayananda H. Hiranandani > >Anand Gholap wrote: >It is well known fact that students for PhD.D. do research and write >thesis mostly to get PhD.D. degree and to prove their ability to do >scholarly research. Gregory also did some research and wrote thesis. >He earned doctorate because he did some research mostly related to >rumors in Leadbeater's life. Till this point what Gregory did was >logical and sensible from viewpoint of the candidate for PhD.D. > >But Gregory made big mistake later. His research on rumors - which >formed very small part of the life of Mr. Leadbeater - was published >by Gregory as his full biography. In Adyar TS there are large number >of members who have PhD.D. or master's degree. Most of these scholars >rejected this biography considering it completely misleading as it >focused on small part of his life and was published by Gregory as >full biography of Mr. Leadbeater. These scholars in Adyar TS and >many outside TS also considered this biography as most unscholarly >biography. It formed opinion that Gregory does not have capacity to >do any objective, scholarly research and his character is not pure >enough to place before world accurate facts in balanced manner. > >So whatever credit Gregory had earned by getting PhD.D. was lost by >printing thesis as biography. > >If he was wise enough, after taking PhD.D. he could have said " thesis >is written to get PhD.D, I wrote it and earned doctoral degree. Matter >is over, I don't want to discuss that subject" If he had said so, >nobody would have ridiculed Gregory or questioned his capacity to do >research. But after getting doctoral degree also he published that >small part of Leadbeater's life as biography. Result was hundreds of >scholars in Theosophical circles and outside ridiculed Gregory, >considered his work as unscholarly and came to conclusion that >Gregory lacks capacity to do research and he can't present correct >picture. So what Gregory earned by getting PhD.D. was lost by >publishing thesis as biography. > >Anand Gholap > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Aug 09 17:26:27 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35474 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 00:26:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2005 00:26:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.69) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 00:26:25 -0000 Received: from [209.179.143.225] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E2eQH-0005Ly-Bf; Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:26:23 -0400 To: Cc: Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:26:10 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c59d42$214d17b0$e18fb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7912c3047e5d2e8359484c4c7977da6810350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.69 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: : RE: MEDITATION X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=VvtiginjFo1WM9L_Cw-66V1h38eOo9w16-G_HyR2kKQTww X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 8/9/2005 11:27 AM Dear Friends: Re: "DIAGRAM ON MEDITATION" attributed to HPB Lets be accurate. HPB did NOT publish or correct this. [Attributed to notes made by E. T. Sturdy at an Inner Group Meeting, on the basis of his memory of what HPB said. ] It reads: --------------------------------------------------- "H P B MEDITATION DIAGRAM" >From Christmas Humphries "THE MIDDLE WAY"=20=20 April/June 1942 [Attributed to notes made by E. T. Sturdy at an Inner Group Meeting.] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D H.P.B.'s Diagram of Meditation First conceive of UNITY by Expansion in space and infinite in Time. (Either with or without self-identification.) =09 ACQUISITIONS Perpetual Presence in imagination in all Space and Time. Continued attempt at attitude of mind to all existing things, which is neither love, hate nor indifference. [ Impersonal Discernment ? ] The Perception in all embodied beings of Limitation only. >From this originates a sub-stratum of memory which does not cease in dreaming or waking. Its manifestation is Courage. [ ? ] Different in external activity to each, because in each the capacity alters= . Mentally the same to all.=20 Criticism without praise or blame.=20 With Memory Of Universality all dread vanishes during the dangers and trial= s of life. Equilibrium and constant Calm. [ F P p. 53 ] Greater ease in practicing the "virtues," which are really the outcome of wisdom,=20 for benevolence, sympathy, justice, etc., arise from the intuitive identification of the individual with others, although unknown to the personality Note: Acquisition is completed by the conception "I am all Space and Time." Beyond that. (It cannot be said). DEPRIVATIONS Separations and Meetings. Association with Places. Times and Forms The Distinctions Friend and Foe. Possessions, Personality, Sensation Futile longings. Expectations. Sad memories. Broken-heartedness.=20=20 Resulting in absence of anger and bias. (Replaced by Judgement.) Vanity, Remorse. Greed, Selfishness, Ambition. Gluttony. Lust, etc. Note: These deprivations are produced by the perpetual imagination - withou= t self-delusion* - of "I am without;" the recognition of their being the source of bondage, ignorance and strife. "Deprivation" is completed by the meditation: "I am without attributes." * There is no risk of self-delusion if the personality is deliberately forgotten. General Note: All the passions and virtues interblend with each other.=20 Therefore the diagram gives only general hints. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D [E. T. Sturdy, a member of HPB's Inner Group, gave this diagram to Christma= s Humphreys in 1940 or thereabouts. Christmas Humphreys printed it in The MIDDLE WAY.=20 The CANADIAN THEOSOPHIST reprinted it in March 1943, and=20 The THEOSOPHIST reprinted it in January 1968.]=20=20=20 BLAVATSKY: Collected Works (TPH) Vol. 11 p. 104-6 -------------------------------------------------- DTB As I understand it, this was issued after private study with HPB and some other students she selected, and hence, was a matter to be kept PRIVATE. = =20 The "Diagram on Mediation" is therefore to be looked at with this in mind. It does not carry the full force of HPB's writings. In any case, all Theosophical writings have to be checked and re-checked fo= r accuracy and agreement with other rules, laws and statements relating to th= e psychology of Man based on the 7 Principles and the rules and laws relating to the interplay of SPIRIT and MATTER along the lengthy process of evolutio= n and eventual involution as the Great Breath ends the period of manvantara. Is it not a study of the evolution of Consciousness? It is said that the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS "desired" to know Itself. This is expressed under "KAMADEVA" in the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY . pp 170-171: "Desire first arose in IT that was the primal germ of mind, and which Sages searching with their intellect, have determined in their heart, to be the bond which connects Entity with Non-Entity," OR Manas with pure Atma-Buddhi." [Glos. p. 171; also quoted in S D II 176, 578.]=20 In order to do this it imposed self-limitations (kamic-desire-"mirrors"). Thus the innumerable Monads [ATMA-BUDDHI] in the illimitable UNIVERSE came into being SIMULTANEOUSLY, everywhere. These were not "created" out of "nothing," since they were the re-embodiments of samskaras under their individual Karma, from earlier Manvantaras.=20 The ONE and the MANY have, and are, both a "root-cause," and a "causeless cause." The "units" [MONAS] are temporary as to form, but stable as to being potential and eternal aspects of the ONE ABSOLUTE -- manifesting through "SPIRIT." They are therefore (as Men-minds") called "the Eternal Pilgrims."=20 Thus we have of the three eternal GUNAS (ATTRIBUTES) : 1 SATTVA or PURE QUIESCENT SPIRIT {Suddha Sattva - Glos. 311}=20 2 TAMAS or quiescent stability -- the IDEAL and the periodic and evanescent "forms" of "inert matter" which reflect aspects of those IDEALS. [Glos. p. 318] 3 Since we are obviously thinkers and MINDS, the third Guna is RAJA or differentiated action. It is associated with form and change because it affords the ability to see, compare, and discriminate -- faculties which ar= e implied in this. In this Guna we must seek for the ETERNAL CAUSELESS CAUSE of all motion, cycles, laws and changes. Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: Odin=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 5:51 AM To:=20 Subject: : MEDITATION HPB's meditation diagram can be found reprinted in the book "Helena Blavatsky" (Western Esoteric Masters Series) [Paperback] by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke (Editor), available on Amazon.=20 [Also available on seekerbooks.com at http://www.seekerbooks.com/prod/9781556434570/index.htm=20 - Estela Carson] On 8/8/05, Joleen D. Du Bois wrote: Has anyone "scanned" the diagram into their computer? I would really appreciate the original form. =20 =20 From MarieMAJ41@aol.com Tue Aug 09 17:56:15 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: MarieMAJ41@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 11025 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 00:56:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2005 00:56:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m22.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 00:56:14 -0000 Received: from MarieMAJ41@aol.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r4.1.) id r.1a2.3952ad1c (16781) for ; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:55:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1a2.3952ad1c.302aaa8a@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:55:38 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5016 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 64.12.137.3 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: MarieMAJ41@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The Trouble in Paris - Historic Question X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=90655958; y=D0PpX2UUW9zvqtUIpnlveElnH0AaDfaSNYOTBVRYrFQww0J1S3A X-Yahoo-Profile: olgamarie41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, in this instance, perhaps it would be best to ask the French Section? Below follows the contact person and the e-mail addy that I have for that person. Good luck, and do let us know what you find out, if anything , relevant to your very good and interesting question. Please scroll down a few lines. Marie France Mrs. Nano (Jeannine) Leguay 4 Square Rapp, 75007 Paris, France e-mail: _editionsadyar@wanadoo.fr_ (mailto:editionsadyar@wanadoo.fr) Section formed 1899 Magazine: Le Lotus Bleu [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MarieMAJ41@aol.com Tue Aug 09 18:01:34 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: MarieMAJ41@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78688 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 01:01:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2005 01:01:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m17.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.207) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 01:01:33 -0000 Received: from MarieMAJ41@aol.com by imo-m17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r4.1.) id r.145.4b0e26a2 (16781) for ; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 21:01:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <145.4b0e26a2.302aabe7@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 21:01:27 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5016 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 64.12.138.207 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: MarieMAJ41@aol.com Subject: Does a Clone have a Soul? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=90655958; y=42QcKZQwwKPJ4G56K6pQ_fLqI_vujwGSwKvwSgl-P3DdDZE4LIU X-Yahoo-Profile: olgamarie41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Ones, I have been lurking for some time now, reading and munching over all the excellent bits from this list. I have been asking myself this question since I saw it brought up on another list that I read. The question is: Does a Clone Have A Soul? Of course, I am asking this question with the theosophical view in mind. I am also wondering about what theosophists think of the cloning question in general. I myself see that cloning would be a progressive thing, since it would be helpful to mankind generally, but, used by the wrong unscrupulous person/s, this could also be a great calamity. I believe that science in general will lead to mankind's progress, and through science, we could at last prove the age-old questions about the nature of reality, and the nature of God. What think you all? Marie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Aug 09 20:07:23 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 27862 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 03:07:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2005 03:07:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m16.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.206) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 03:07:21 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r4.1.) id r.13c.18fc2398 (4394) for ; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 23:07:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <13c.18fc2398.302ac962@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 23:07:14 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 64.12.138.206 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Does a Clone have a Soul? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162; y=rlr2-a8EjrlINonKxdowXu-MtATzpZTtz2RJhrK9jlYX-DOPFg X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 8/9/05 8:01:42 PM Central Daylight Time, MarieMAJ41@aol.com writes: > What think you all? I really don't care since my clone is only going to be used for spare parts anyway. Chuck the Heretic From eldon@theosophy.com Tue Aug 09 21:51:16 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24772 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 04:51:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2005 04:51:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp109.mail.sc5.yahoo.com) (66.163.170.7) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 04:51:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 76637 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 04:51:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (eldon?tucker@70.93.156.188 with login) by smtp109.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 04:51:10 -0000 To: Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 21:50:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <145.4b0e26a2.302aabe7@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Thread-Index: AcWdRw8CoQQae/hpTDm/ZPgkt+EbjwAGhJAQ X-Originating-IP: 66.163.170.7 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: RE: Theos-World Does a Clone have a Soul? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132; y=Jsj_0HVXSqelUDoL5ZBW2uDA8WUyx6di71STJAaLvSHc24IDByVm X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker Marie: Regarding the question, "Does a Clone Have a Soul," I'd say, "Yes," but would need to explain myself. The traditional Christian idea is that a soul is created whenever a person is born. Men and women have souls as a gift from God, but have to lead a good life in order to keep them. If you or I still have (or "own") our soul at the time of death, it is our ticket into heaven, perhaps after some preliminary punishment in purgatory. If we've lost our souls to the devil, we suffer eternal suffering in hell, being damned and under the dominion of the devil. That's one version of what the traditional Christians might say. It's not what we'd teach people wanting to learn Theosophy. The theosophical idea is that we are eternal, timeless, perfect, but needing to go through an evolutionary journey through matter in order to awaken ourselves to self-conscious perfection. Some may take the Buddhist slant on this and say there's no eternal aspect to us, that we're an ever-changing stream of consciousness. That sounds like a contradiction, but it's really but a seeming paradox. Both viewpoints -- the eternal Self known as the Monad and the ever-changing stream of consciousness typified by the Void or Emptiness -- are complimentary, co-exist, and cannot be separated. Every being that exists is the expression of a consciousness at a certain stage of development, the outward expression of some Monad. That being is not created when its body is born. Rather, the birth of the body could only happen if there was the organizing effect of a being seeking birth. Otherwise, the body would not be born; it would have no life. Creating a new human body the ordinary way, through sex and natural childbirth, the parents provide an opportunity for some being to exist. That being gives the life to the body, and when that being departs, the body dies. Creating a clone is a different way to produce a body. The rule still holds. It is a living body with a human consciousness behind it if there is some human Monad that attaches to it and gives it life. Otherwise, the clone is not viable. A human form is created with a clone, but for it to live, a human Monad would have to animate it. Life is not created, merely another type of opportunity for someone to be born into the world. The answer to the original question, I'd say, is that a clone has a soul (meaning it has a human Monad behind it), if the clone takes on life as a human being. If the clone's body has genetic problems and is seriously defective, no human may incarnate into it, just as defective embryos may end up stillborn, with no one willing to live in them. If the body has good genes and would provide an attractive host, odds are, someone would be drawn to birth in it. Eldon > -----Original Message----- > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of MarieMAJ41@aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:01 PM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Theos-World Does a Clone have a Soul? > > Dear Ones, > > I have been lurking for some time now, reading and munching over all the > excellent bits from this list. I have been asking myself this question > since I > saw it brought up on another list that I read. > > The question is: Does a Clone Have A Soul? Of course, I am asking this > question with the theosophical view in mind. I am also wondering about > what > theosophists think of the cloning question in general. I myself see that > cloning > would be a progressive thing, since it would be helpful to mankind > generally, > but, used by the wrong unscrupulous person/s, this could also be a great > calamity. I believe that science in general will lead to mankind's > progress, and > through science, we could at last prove the age-old questions about the > nature of reality, and the nature of God. What think you all? > > Marie From ramadoss@gbronline.com Tue Aug 09 22:04:27 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 30801 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 05:04:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2005 05:04:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.11) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 05:04:26 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.96.136]) by mta1.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 122520361 for ; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:03:30 -0500 CDT Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20050810000126.06f127a0@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:03:08 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <1a2.3952ad1c.302aaa8a@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-58321926 X-SpamDetect: *: 1.386000 Subject has lots of exclamation marks=1.0,From: does not include a real name=0.3 X-NotAscii: charset=us-ascii; X-Avast: Message is clean X-Originating-IP: 69.9.90.11 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World The Trouble in Paris - Historic Question X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674; y=y4_VXNYd1j-yWrGXl4qylJqdnWSIfb_86sil4_Bbcp8CgUWGyP_hEg X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 I hope contact yields info. Usually if there is any adverse info, don't expect the Sections to make them easily accessible. mkr At 08:55 PM 08/09/05 -0400, MarieMAJ41@aol.com wrote: >Hello, in this instance, perhaps it would be best to ask the French Section? -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/67 - Release Date: 08/09/05 From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Aug 10 06:10:44 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 96045 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 13:10:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2005 13:10:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 13:10:44 -0000 Received: from [151.198.111.187] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E2qLz-0006Ty-NI for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:10:43 -0400 Message-ID: <42F9FCD4.3030904@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:10:44 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <145.4b0e26a2.302aabe7@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <145.4b0e26a2.302aabe7@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbaf83a3111f73dd88c01ccb001dfa657f386936b69e59fefa2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.66 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World Does a Clone have a Soul? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370; y=PbPkoStSpKSnqGXLIrixDdxDAO67zA7CTddPXT4q20iPuls X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 MarieMAJ41@aol.com wrote: > The question is: Does a Clone Have A Soul? Well, seeing that natural human clones exist, and, as far as anybody can tell, THEY have souls, the question is kind of moot. Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Aug 10 06:24:35 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 1262 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 13:24:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2005 13:24:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 13:24:32 -0000 Received: from [151.198.111.187] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E2qZ0-0005m6-Mm for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:24:10 -0400 Message-ID: <42F9FFFB.2040602@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:24:11 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <200508100051.1e2IyH6dO3Nl3qW0@watson.mail.atl.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <200508100051.1e2IyH6dO3Nl3qW0@watson.mail.atl.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbacd6827593ce91478e8ef25f542d7366193fe5b2b5bb10998350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.66 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:7:0 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World Does a Clone have a Soul? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370; y=o8j3Zcz6HcXT62ExVg3xMhu_kNiqWlLASvy7KnfPCeBkv8w X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Eldon B Tucker wrote: > Creating a clone is a different way to produce a body. What's the difference? Bart From auspirograph@yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 07:45:40 2005 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 58899 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 14:45:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2005 14:45:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.50) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 14:45:40 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n21.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 14:45:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.80] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 14:45:40 -0000 X-Sender: auspirograph@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7258 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 08:12:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2005 08:12:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.201.68) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 08:12:54 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.64] by n3.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 08:12:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by mailer1.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 08:12:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.71] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 08:12:47 -0000 Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:12:46 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1a2.3952ad1c.302aaa8a@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1246 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-Originating-IP: 216.155.201.68 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 144.138.3.96 From: "Spiro" Subject: Re: Theos-World The Trouble in Paris - Historic Question X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=123058641; y=h-YnZXxrZh735_4c216uEQcxWM66P6WwkAcP63GRWrOZcY8oXJ5S X-Yahoo-Profile: auspirograph X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 10 Aug 2005 14:45:38 -0000 Hello Marie, Thank you for your reply and useful contact details. I'm glad you found the question interesting as I do find Theosophical history fascinating and in many ways relevant to understanding the people who founded the Society and inspired others by their efforts. I would be happy to pass on anything if found and I appreciate your interest. One question that I have regarding the details below is the "Section formed 1899". I assume this refers to the Paris Branch of the Esoteric Section being formed as the Theosophical Society in France arose earlier. Regards Spiro --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, MarieMAJ41@a... wrote: > Hello, in this instance, perhaps it would be best to ask the French Section? > > Below follows the contact person and the e-mail addy that I have for that > person. Good luck, and do let us know what you find out, if anything , relevant > to your very good and interesting question. > > > Please scroll down a few lines. > Marie > > France > Mrs. Nano (Jeannine) Leguay > 4 Square Rapp, 75007 Paris, France > e-mail: _editionsadyar@w..._ (mailto:editionsadyar@w...) > Section formed 1899 > Magazine: Le Lotus Bleu > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From auspirograph@yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 07:45:46 2005 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 40006 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 14:45:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2005 14:45:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.201.68) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 14:45:44 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.65] by n3.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 14:45:41 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by mailer2.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 14:45:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.80] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 14:45:40 -0000 X-Sender: auspirograph@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 28852 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 08:26:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2005 08:26:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.201.61) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 08:26:47 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.64] by n8.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 08:26:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by mailer1.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 08:26:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.82] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 08:26:44 -0000 Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:26:42 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20050810000126.06f127a0@mail.gbronline.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 938 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-Originating-IP: 216.155.201.61 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 144.138.3.96 From: "Spiro" Subject: Re: Theos-World The Trouble in Paris - Historic Question X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=123058641; y=NK8BxqKHOVaLMrO9EdpdnYBfDlSKQHaoz3TppUQ4aYP5USUeQmWo X-Yahoo-Profile: auspirograph X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 10 Aug 2005 14:45:38 -0000 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, MKR wrote: > I hope contact yields info. Usually if there is any adverse info, don't > expect the Sections to make them easily accessible. Hi Mkr, I appreciate your comment and perfectly understand your concern. I accept that adverse info, even from this distance in history, is sensitive and I am mindful of that. It is true that the Paris Branch did present problems at the time in terms of unity and that the French spirit of independance is noted for it's stubborn determination. Much of the details of the adverse info you mention is already available especially in the references Dallas was able to kindly provide. I have also been able to view some letters from Judge that refers to the events. So beyond that, I would not have any interest in knowing further of the internal position at that time but I thank you for your advice and have noted the situation. Regards Spiro From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 09:00:08 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 90933 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 16:00:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2005 16:00:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.44) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 16:00:07 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 16:00:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.68] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 15:59:43 -0000 Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:59:42 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3468 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.44 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 201.235.42.235 From: "prmoliveira" Subject: Re: Theos-World Does a Clone have a Soul? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617; y=dGykmGINY24kyCGTkKkgotOLbHctsyI9ptJTMTb4GLRA0tvo6uA X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Eldon B Tucker" wrote: > The theosophical idea is that we are eternal, timeless, perfect, but needing > to go through an evolutionary journey through matter in order to awaken > ourselves to self-conscious perfection. Some may take the Buddhist slant on > this and say there's no eternal aspect to us, that we're an ever- changing > stream of consciousness. That sounds like a contradiction, but it's really > but a seeming paradox. Both viewpoints -- the eternal Self known as the > Monad and the ever-changing stream of consciousness typified by the Void or > Emptiness -- are complimentary, co-exist, and cannot be separated. A bold statement indeed but not supported by existing doctrinal evidences. Evolution demands a basis, an "upadhi", which needs to exist within time-space. If we assume the Monad as Sunyata (Emptiness) the concept of evolution becomes meaningless as Sunyata is devoid of becoming. > Every being that exists is the expression of a consciousness at a certain > stage of development, the outward expression of some Monad. That being is > not created when its body is born. Rather, the birth of the body could only > happen if there was the organizing effect of a being seeking birth. > Otherwise, the body would not be born; it would have no life. > > Creating a new human body the ordinary way, through sex and natural > childbirth, the parents provide an opportunity for some being to exist. That > being gives the life to the body, and when that being departs, the body > dies. > > Creating a clone is a different way to produce a body. The rule still holds. > It is a living body with a human consciousness behind it if there is some > human Monad that attaches to it and gives it life. Otherwise, the clone is > not viable. > > A human form is created with a clone, but for it to live, a human Monad > would have to animate it. Life is not created, merely another type of > opportunity for someone to be born into the world. > > The answer to the original question, I'd say, is that a clone has a soul > (meaning it has a human Monad behind it), if the clone takes on life as a > human being. > > If the clone's body has genetic problems and is seriously defective, no > human may incarnate into it, just as defective embryos may end up stillborn, > with no one willing to live in them. If the body has good genes and would > provide an attractive host, odds are, someone would be drawn to birth in it. The mere existence of a human does not imply that a Soul animates it. If my memory serves me well, there is at least one testimony by HPB (The Key?) about soul-less people she saw in London in her time. Because a clone is not produced the way Nature generates human bodies, it is a really moot point if the consciousness inhabiting it will be human. In the natural process of incarnation the physical body and other vehicles of consciousness are formed after the patterns existing in that particular Soul's *skandhas* or aggregates from its long evolutionary past, and regulated by Karmic law. Therefore, a Soul, strictly speaking, forms its own bodies. A body that is engineered by the mind and knowledge of someone else can have life and consciousness but not necessarily a human one. There may be other things out there that can "ensoul" an available form as Edgar Allan Poe's "The Tell-Tale Heart" seems to suggest. pedro From eldon@theosophy.com Wed Aug 10 12:09:36 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94411 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 19:09:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2005 19:09:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp107.mail.sc5.yahoo.com) (66.163.169.227) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 19:09:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 27994 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 19:08:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (eldon?tucker@70.93.156.188 with login) by smtp107.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 19:08:23 -0000 To: Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:08:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 In-Reply-To: <42F9FFFB.2040602@sprynet.com> Thread-Index: AcWdzzc1sA3hfrZqRDGAeSMISTL5pAADihxg X-Originating-IP: 66.163.169.227 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: ways to produce a body X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132; y=vMR84C2xqRgld9vb79fHkFnLBKycu8KJrzIkp-sF3WiLcphIlzI- X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker Bart: The clone might be produced by replacing the DNA in a fertilized egg cell with the DNA of the person to be cloned. Then the egg cell is implanted into a human womb. If it lives and grows as an embryo, a human body is produced, behind which is a human Ego of some kind. When this happens, if it were to succeed, I wonder if at the time of cloning the previously incarnating human is cut lose and another takes its place. A more natural example of cloning would be when a fertilized egg cell splits on its own, producing identical twins. One of the two twins would be the original incarnating entity. The other would be taken up by a different human coming into birth. Regardless of the physical method used to produce the body, including normal sexual reproduction, if the body lives, it houses a human Ego. (An obvious exception, of course, would be a body that is brain dead, comatose, and needing artificial support to stay alive.) Eldon > -----Original Message----- > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Bart Lidofsky > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:24 AM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: Theos-World Does a Clone have a Soul? > > Eldon B Tucker wrote: > > Creating a clone is a different way to produce a body. > > What's the difference? > > Bart > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > From eldon@theosophy.com Wed Aug 10 13:28:10 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66786 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 20:28:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2005 20:28:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp105.mail.sc5.yahoo.com) (66.163.169.225) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 20:28:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 24634 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 20:26:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (eldon?tucker@70.93.156.188 with login) by smtp105.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 20:26:59 -0000 To: Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:26:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcWdx+qaO+liqshlQ52CgWmu3SNu5QAF3yTg X-Originating-IP: 66.163.169.225 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: what can be born into a clone X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132; y=3tfH1oAYXqLT3ILcoJ-q2yCll42Xcl2CW_p7ysYVjXVUCrn5ex-y X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker Pedro: > > The theosophical idea is that we are eternal, timeless, perfect, > but needing > > to go through an evolutionary journey through matter in order to > awaken > > ourselves to self-conscious perfection. Some may take the Buddhist > slant on > > this and say there's no eternal aspect to us, that we're an ever- > changing > > stream of consciousness. That sounds like a contradiction, but it's > really > > but a seeming paradox. Both viewpoints -- the eternal Self known as > the > > Monad and the ever-changing stream of consciousness typified by the > Void or > > Emptiness -- are complimentary, co-exist, and cannot be separated. > > > A bold statement indeed but not supported by existing doctrinal > evidences. Evolution demands a basis, an "upadhi", which needs to > exist within time-space. If we assume the Monad as Sunyata > (Emptiness) the concept of evolution becomes meaningless as Sunyata > is devoid of becoming. This is a complex area of discussion that has been the basis of many major disagreements in world religions. I've seen arguments for both points of view -- that of the Eternal Self and that of what might be called the Ever Changing. I tend to find both equally true, as being different modes of experiencing life or viewing reality, with one view becoming real and the other seeming illusory as someone adopts the first view, then the other view becoming real and the first illusory as someone changes to the other view of things. > The mere existence of a human does not imply that a Soul animates it. > If my memory serves me well, there is at least one testimony by HPB > (The Key?) about soul-less people she saw in London in her time. The most frequent reference to soulless people is that their spiritual nature is totally silent within them. Lines of communication are closed down. They are uninspired from within. Even so, they still contain a link to that higher nature within. It's just that the link is dormant. Were the link to be severed, they'd then be called "lost souls". Of these, the first kind is someone having temporarily severed a connection with the Higher Self for this particular lifetime. For them, the current page in the "book of life" is torn out; there is nothing of lasting value. Of the second kind, the like is permanently severed, resulting in their leaving their evolutionary place in the human kingdom and entering what is called Avichi Nirvana. A body could be alive and breathing, and the person elsewhere, leaving the body entranced. The body could be in a coma with the person unable to return and animate it. Or the body could have its connection with the inner man broken. When that "silver cord" is severed, the body dies, although it could be kept alive artificially on life-support equipment in a hospital. > Because a clone is not produced the way Nature generates human > bodies, it is a really moot point if the consciousness inhabiting it > will be human. In the natural process of incarnation the physical > body and other vehicles of consciousness are formed after the > patterns existing in that particular Soul's *skandhas* or aggregates > from its long evolutionary past, and regulated by Karmic law. > Therefore, a Soul, strictly speaking, forms its own bodies. One's life and energies are not created out of nothing, but rather are drawn together from each respective realm. The incarnating person provides this subtle essence of life that is the organizing principle that creates the living form. When that essence of life is withdrawn at death, the living form falls apart, returning to the elements. A human forms his or her bodies from their own life and energies. Various life-atoms are drawn back to build their constitution. This does not happen from scratch, according to whatever one wants, but rather happens through some existing mechanism of birth into one's kingdom. Whatever mechanism that is in place for the particular race, root race, and globe is utilized in the process of coming into birth. A fertile human Egg cell with human DNA in it and implanted in a human womb qualifies as a potential human birth. It may not have come about in the usual way, but if the DNA is acceptable, a suitable person will incarnate into and animate it. If the DNA were damaged or altered too much, it may not longer be suitable to house a human consciousness, in which case it would be either unviable or perhaps host some other kind of entity. > A body > that is engineered by the mind and knowledge of someone else can have > life and consciousness but not necessarily a human one. There may be > other things out there that can "ensoul" an available form as Edgar > Allan Poe's "The Tell-Tale Heart" seems to suggest. There are lots of things we can to do manipulate the DNA of a future body, including selective breeding (which we've done successfully with flowers, dogs, crops, etc.). Although what we do has an outcome on the type of body produced, it does not create life. It only provides the physical mechanism by which a being may incarnate into. Without the incarnating being, the physical form dies. It might be possible to produce a human body that was sufficiently different that no human would incarnate into it, but at the same time was close enough to the needs of some other being that the being would possess it. Although possible, I think it's unlikely, and don't look forward to the day when someone proves it possible. Eldon From netemara888@yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 15:37:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 43672 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 22:37:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2005 22:37:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.201.61) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 22:37:21 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.64] by n8.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 22:37:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by mailer1.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 22:37:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.78] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 22:37:20 -0000 Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 22:37:20 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20050809100940.05859050@mail.gbronline.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1813 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 216.155.201.61 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 70.251.148.194 From: "netemara888" Subject: Re: Theos-World "Freedom at Midnight" , and HPB and Ghandi Ji X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629; y=h2xpTMopXAmhO4jBNHHoK8JNaCuCH5vDBkmG_oJQp9Hk_5th8Ac X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, MKR wrote: > British did everything necessary to ensure supply of raw materials from > India. Railroad was the critical link. > > It is only after Independence, that progress has been rapid and the > standard of living of the poorer classes has improved significantly. Today > the West is talking about India becoming a Asian Power of the future. > > mkr > Are you saying the railroad was the key for Britain to take raw materials out of India for their use? It is not clear. I think that would have happened regardless to Independence because other islands and nations that have been colonialized and freed or not freed did not fare nearly as well as India. In fact most went down the tubes precipitiously, take Cuba and Haiti for example (although Cuba was not colonized per se). I think India would have prospered regardless. And when they began to prosper they would have sought Independence later if not sooner. I agree India is and will become an Asian power of the future. I've been there twice and I have studied their education, and value of same. It did not hurt that many Indians have an upper-class British education. Netemara > > > At 02:58 PM 08/09/05 +0000, netemara888 wrote: > >Self-determination is what makes America free and great, and that is > >what India wanted as well. What they do with it is another thing. I > >am not saying that British rule was a bad thing. If you've been > >there you will see that the rail system the Brits and Indians built > >back when is still being used today and it is a comprehensive system- > >-but extremely old. > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.2/65 - Release Date: 08/07/05 From eleblanc1982@yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 15:40:04 2005 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 82413 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 22:40:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2005 22:40:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.201.63) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 22:40:03 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.65] by n10.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 22:40:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by mailer2.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 22:40:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.68] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2005 22:40:03 -0000 X-Sender: eleblanc1982@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (qmail 53815 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2005 22:36:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2005 22:36:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52108.mail.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.111) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2005 22:36:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 38038 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Aug 2005 22:36:23 -0000 Message-ID: <20050810223623.38036.qmail@web52108.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.94.63.252] by web52108.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:36:23 PDT Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:36:23 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.111 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: Ryan Rocheleau Subject: Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=212251523; y=QR6qqQ2klwmP1QBuZjkSa52XR59aAtgL1vJ_Z3kPhWum3tyCqZUC X-Yahoo-Profile: eleblanc1982 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 10 Aug 2005 22:40:01 -0000 Hi! My name is Ryan, I live in Toronto, and I am 22. I am a 'recovering' Catholic, and I am looking to fill the vacuum left from my old religion with something more profound, and spiritual. Ryan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ramadoss@gbronline.com Wed Aug 10 18:36:01 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6838 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2005 01:36:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Aug 2005 01:36:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.12) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 2005 01:36:00 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.96.221]) by mta2.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 69936622 for ; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:35:04 -0500 CDT Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20050810202932.00a03010@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:34:47 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.5.2.20050809100940.05859050@mail.gbronline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5C593D5B X-SpamDetect: *: 1.386000 Subject has lots of exclamation marks=1.0,From: does not include a real name=0.3 X-NotAscii: charset=us-ascii; X-Avast: Message is clean X-Originating-IP: 69.9.90.12 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World "Freedom at Midnight" , and HPB and Ghandi Ji X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674; y=54CaTMdsbMJbdPXBPT-W9OF4wwdx39hrJgne9t5JLaDjhn0xg1PNYw X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 At 10:37 PM 08/10/05 +0000, netemara888 wrote: >Are you saying the railroad was the key for Britain to take raw >materials out of India for their use? It is not clear. Yes. >I think that would have happened regardless to Independence because >other islands and nations that have been colonialized and freed or >not freed did not fare nearly as well as India. In fact most went >down the tubes precipitiously, take Cuba and Haiti for example >(although Cuba was not colonized per se). I think India would have >prospered regardless. And when they began to prosper they would >have sought Independence later if not sooner. The infra structure of India is quite different than that of Cuba or Haiti. >I agree India is and will become an Asian power of the future. I've >been there twice and I have studied their education, and value of >same. It did not hurt that many Indians have an upper-class British >education. My observations are based on several decades of first hand experience of living in India. Anyone will vouch for the fact that the rapidity of progress is phenomenal only after Independence. mkr -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/67 - Release Date: 08/09/05 From ramadoss@gbronline.com Wed Aug 10 18:38:40 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66768 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2005 01:38:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Aug 2005 01:38:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.12) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 2005 01:38:40 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.96.221]) by mta2.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 69937010 for ; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:37:49 -0500 CDT Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20050810203528.03f7cec0@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:37:33 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20050810223623.38036.qmail@web52108.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5C593D5B X-SpamDetect: *: 1.386000 Subject has lots of exclamation marks=1.0,From: does not include a real name=0.3 X-NotAscii: charset=us-ascii; X-Avast: Message is clean X-Originating-IP: 69.9.90.12 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674; y=mZ69wePCscRZ1mSMlBlhqq5EnOb3AF9As2Dkc8-RyUFAjnqVdXyUCg X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 You are welcome here and hope you will find this place very interesting. How did you find this list? Have read any of the books on theosophy? Probably the best FAQ is "Key to Theosophy" by HP Blavatsky which I think is available on-line. mkr At 03:36 PM 08/10/05 -0700, Ryan Rocheleau wrote: >Hi! > >My name is Ryan, I live in Toronto, and I am 22. > >I am a 'recovering' Catholic, and I am looking to fill >the vacuum left from my old religion with something >more profound, and spiritual. > >Ryan -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/67 - Release Date: 08/09/05 From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 18:49:09 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 34266 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2005 01:49:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Aug 2005 01:49:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web30111.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.201.219) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 2005 01:49:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 125 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Aug 2005 01:49:08 -0000 Message-ID: <20050811014908.123.qmail@web30111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.113] by web30111.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:49:08 PDT Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:49:08 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20050810223623.38036.qmail@web52108.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 68.142.201.219 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=asjPfZE5ZBWkEP_EOpF4QmIH5IWBOCv620Xj0tqrVTSzvHsNNA X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Welcome Ryan, Is there anything in particular you have any queries about. Cass Ryan Rocheleau wrote: Hi! My name is Ryan, I live in Toronto, and I am 22. I am a 'recovering' Catholic, and I am looking to fill the vacuum left from my old religion with something more profound, and spiritual. Ryan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 18:59:06 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 19404 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2005 01:59:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Aug 2005 01:59:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.200.81) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 2005 01:59:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 38769 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Aug 2005 01:58:42 -0000 Message-ID: <20050811015842.38767.qmail@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.113] by web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:58:42 PDT Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:58:42 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 68.142.200.81 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: String Theory and Theosophy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=myRFXDq9cVgvMhJ85Rule7PAg8dCM6LksVSaC--i0VYWtLShBA X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dallas, I am currently trying to figure out if there is a correlation between Dr Kaku's parallel dimensions and ours. I have received these comments from another group which I am a member of and I am hoping that this subject will resonate with the scientifically minded in theos group and they can add their opinions. Cass Correction: the non-Euclidean geometry is probably elliptical [Riemann] and not hyperbolic. That would be consistent too with the fact that a 'circle' belongs to the greater class... the class of ellipses...hence is strictly considered an ellipse having no eccentricity. M Cass Silva wrote: Hi Cass, I'll give it the 'ole' college try. I do think 'string theory' comes in here with the extra dimensions and all that. These dimensions are curved in upon themselves, probably obeying a kind of non-Euclidean/Hyperbolic geometry. It would seem to be that attraction between bodies in those dimensions would not be based on a 1/r squared force ....as in our 4D time-space, macroscopic world... but probably on a 1/r to the fourth power and beyond which is to say gravity breaks down below the Planck level as quantum forces begin to initiate control over that domain. I'm sure Kaku can better explain it.. The self-symmetry of multiple dimensions can be mathematically apprehended were one to formulate the Integral of the equation of the volume of a sphere. I think it might closely approximate Theosophy's 'Fohat creating an infinite number of bubbles' a la Blavatsky or Spinozas infinity of monads. In a nutshell what becomes produced is an 'Infinity of Spheres'....or as some might say a hollographic universe. If you want to put a simulacra of yourself in every sphere, that's fine by me, but I like the traditional Theosophic line of thought just as much... which says we have the 'spiritual bodies' you pointed out and they exist in a physical, etheric, astral , mental and cosmic corresponding sphere. Soror is the Latin term for Sister, and it is the term by which Rosicrucians refer to their female members. 'M' Cass Silva wrote: Hi Michael, Your analogy is perfect. It raises the question with me, Does the string theory of Mitsuio Kaku provide for similtaneous existence in multi dimensions. Theosophy says that we have ten "bodies" (the highest three being pure spirit) , all manifesting within the physical but by extension in their own dimension. Each composed of finer and finer material corresponding to that plane. Physical/Prana, (Sensations/Solid)Astral (Emotions/Water), Lower Mental (Egoic thoughts/Air) Higher Mental (Creative thoughts/Fire) etc etc. I have been thinking about emailing Mr Kaku to ask him his thoughts on this. What are yours? Cass ps What is a soror? Michael Angelicus wrote: --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eleblanc1982@yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 19:05:18 2005 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 51761 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2005 02:05:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Aug 2005 02:05:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.40) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 2005 02:05:18 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Aug 2005 02:05:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.76] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Aug 2005 02:05:17 -0000 X-Sender: eleblanc1982@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 48291 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2005 02:04:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Aug 2005 02:04:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52111.mail.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.114) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 2005 02:04:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 21968 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Aug 2005 02:04:26 -0000 Message-ID: <20050811020426.21966.qmail@web52111.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.94.63.252] by web52111.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:04:26 PDT Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:04:26 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20050811014908.123.qmail@web30111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.114 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: Ryan Rocheleau Subject: Re: Theos-World Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=212251523; y=SBNS43sit13iPJDaofyVCqNpqJvyxhMfEvoKVz3htbLROL9pKixj X-Yahoo-Profile: eleblanc1982 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 11 Aug 2005 02:05:17 -0000 Well, there is actually... It sounds trite, but I'm wondering if it compulsory to be a vegetarian? --- Cass Silva wrote: > Welcome Ryan, > Is there anything in particular you have any queries > about. > Cass > > Ryan Rocheleau wrote: > Hi! > > My name is Ryan, I live in Toronto, and I am 22. > > I am a 'recovering' Catholic, and I am looking to > fill > the vacuum left from my old religion with something > more profound, and spiritual. > > Ryan > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > theos-talk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From eleblanc1982@yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 19:05:32 2005 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 52434 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2005 02:05:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Aug 2005 02:05:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.201.69) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 2005 02:05:32 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.65] by n4.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Aug 2005 02:05:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by mailer2.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Aug 2005 02:05:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.76] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Aug 2005 02:05:17 -0000 X-Sender: eleblanc1982@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 76463 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2005 01:59:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Aug 2005 01:59:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52113.mail.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.116) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 2005 01:59:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 3123 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Aug 2005 01:59:39 -0000 Message-ID: <20050811015939.3121.qmail@web52113.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.94.63.252] by web52113.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:59:39 PDT Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:59:39 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20050810203528.03f7cec0@mail.gbronline.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.116 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: Ryan Rocheleau Subject: Re: Theos-World Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=212251523; y=yVhvc11RS_jNTKJ31Xyhe_pk8NPqE0Ko0Dm7earZiPI_vWaJ_3Ku X-Yahoo-Profile: eleblanc1982 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 11 Aug 2005 02:05:17 -0000 Thank you for the welcome. I haven't really read anything yet, but I have contacted my local chapter of the Theosophical Society, and I am waiting for their information package... I've been checking out their site. I first heard about Theosophy thus: I once read a book entitled "Jesus Christ, Sun of God," which was a very interesting study of ancient greek/early Christian cosmology. It was published by Quest Books, which is a theosophical publishing house, so that's how I had first become aware of its existance, but I didn't really explore it because I was involved in yo-yo Catholicism (I'd keep switching back and forth from RC to various religions- Wicca, Taoism, Hinduism, Theodish Belief, Roman reconstructionism, Pleaidianism etc, and not necessarily in that order) at the time. I had heard of Mme H. P. Blavatsky of course, and I new that Theosophy has been very influential in the 20th century on New Age/Occult thought. --- MKR wrote: > You are welcome here and hope you will find this > place very interesting. > How did you find this list? Have read any of the > books on theosophy? > Probably the best FAQ is "Key to Theosophy" by HP > Blavatsky which I think > is available on-line. > > mkr > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 19:11:36 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94393 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2005 02:11:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Aug 2005 02:11:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.200.81) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 2005 02:11:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 41949 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Aug 2005 02:11:35 -0000 Message-ID: <20050811021135.41947.qmail@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.113] by web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:11:35 PDT Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:11:35 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <000e01c59cd6$8f9ea380$0292b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 68.142.200.81 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: RE: Theos-World Velikovksy's P2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=8TdQdmHjZevTBVTNg8EvtJte0xg-jl8cRaUphlU6tk3a6LtUWw X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You're welcome. I am terrible at recording information,and I must start to= discipline myself in that respect. However, from memory, the links are be= low. I think it was Charles Ginenthal. http://sheol.org/throopw/ginenthal-on-sagan.html =20 http://www.varchive.org/ce/index.htm =20 http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/velstcol.html Today, interest in Velikovskian studies resides primarily with four groups:= (1) Saturnists are the most visible with the journal Aeon (http://www.aeon= journal.com/) and Kronia Group (http://www.kronia.com) {founded in 1987 by = Dave Talbott, author of The Saturn Myth (1980), whose efforts as publisher = of Pensee arguably led to the 1974 AAAS Symposium where Carl Sagan and Veli= kovsky clashed}, which publishes the electronic newsletter Thoth, produces = the Mythscape video series, and runs the moderated kroniatalk listserve. T= heir alternative-science conferences include invited speakers with bona fid= e scientific credentials, such as plasma physicist Anthony Peratt and astro= nomer Halton Arp, who provide a veneer of scholarly respectability, with th= e Intersect2001 world conference held July 2001 at Laughlin, NV, (http://ww= w.kronia.com/intersect2.html); (2) Charles Ginenthal founded The Velikovski= an in 1992 (http://www.knowledge.co.uk/velikovskian/index.htm) and has prod= uced several books and sponsored annual conferences, recently with Cosmos & Chronos, the original= Velikovsky discussion group founded in 1965 by geologist H.H. Hess at Prin= ceton University and now headed by C.J. Ransom in Texas; (3) The Society fo= r Interdisciplinary Studies in Great Britain, established in 1974 (http://w= ww.knowledge.co.uk/sis/), publishes Chronology & Catastrophism Review and, = while it is nominally interested in catastrophism and ancient chronology an= d its leadership embraces the work of Clube and Napier, a large portion of = the membership has a strong affection for Velikovsky and an indiscriminate = interest in the work of other distinctly fringe writers; and (4) The Veliko= vsky Archive is a web resource (http://www.varchive.org) containing many ma= nuscripts, lectures, correspondence, and the 1972 Canadian television docum= entary "Velikovsky: The Bonds of the Past." =20 Charles Ginenthal "W.Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: 8/9/2005 2:55 AM Dear Cass Who wrote this (was it Velikovsky ? and Where?) excellent critique that reveals how much modern claimants to knowledge have culled from the ancient= s and failed to give them credit? At least we can say after reading HPB's works that she failed in that. I have always admired the Velikovsky books. Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Cass Silva Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 11:33 PM To:=20 Subject: Velikovksy's P 2 My Challenge to Conventional Views in Science=20 =93Books written about the solar system before the advent of the space age could as well have been written in Latin or Greek, so dated do they appear to a contemporary reader.=94 Zdenek Kopal - THE SOLAR SYSTEM (Oxford University Press, 1973) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =93In my published books, notwithstanding often repeated allegations, no physical law is ever abrogated or =93temporarily suspended=94; what I offer= ed in them is primarily a reconstruction of events from the historical past.=20 Thus I did not set out to confront the existing views with a theory or hypothesis and to develop it into a competing system.=20 My work is first a reconstruction, not a theory; it is built upon studying the human testimony as preserved in the heritage of all ancient civilizations=97all of them in texts bequeathed beginning with the time man learned to write, tell in various forms the very same narrative that the trained eye of a psychoanalyst could not but recognize as so many variants of the same theme.=20 In hymns, in prayers, in historical texts, in philosophical discourses, in records of astronomical observations, but also in legend and religious myth= , the ancients desperately tried to convey to their descendants, ourselves included, the record of events that took place in circumstances that left a strong imprint on the witnesses.=20 There were physical upheavals on a global scale in historical times; the grandiosity of the events inspired awe. From the Far East to the Far West=97the Japanese, Chinese and Hindu civilizations; the Iranian, Sumerian= , Assyrian, Babylonian, Hitto-Chaldean, Israelite and Egyptian records; the Etruscan, Attic and Roman theogonies and philosophies; Scandinavian and Icelandic epics; Mayan, Toltec and Olmec art and legends=97all, with no exception, were dominated by the knowledge of events and circumstances that only the most brazen attitude of science could so completely disregard.=20 The scientific community starts its annals with Newton, paying some homage to Copernicus, Kepler and Galileo, unaware that the great ones of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries searched through classical authors of antiquity for their great discoveries.=20 Did not Copernicus strike out the name of Aristarchus of Samos from the introduction to De Revolutionibus before he signed imprimatur on his work?= =20 Did not Tycho Brahe find the compromising theory of the Sun revolving aroun= d the Earth=97but Mercury and Venus circling around the Sun=97in Heracleides = of Pontus, yet announce it as his own?=20 Did not Galileo read of the equal velocity of heavy and light falling bodie= s in Lucretius; 1 did not Newton read in Plutarch of the Moon removed from th= e Earth by fifty-six terrestrial radii and impelled by gravitation to circle around the Earth, the basic postulate of Newton=92s Principia, and 2 did not Halley read in Pliny about comets returning on their orbits?=20 3 Then why does modern science disregard the persistent reports of events witnessed and recorded in many languages in the writings of the ancients and also transmitted from generation to generation by communities unable to write, by American Indians, by the people of Lapland, the Voguls of Siberia, the aborigines of tropical Africa, the Tahitians in the South Pacific? Why is theomachy the central theme of all cosmogonical myths?=20 Should not a thinking man pause and wonder why the ancients in both hemispheres worshipped planetary gods; why temples were erected to them, an= d some are still standing; why sacrifices, even human sacrifices, were brough= t to them?=20 Why was Saturn or Cronos or Brahma the supreme deity to be replaced by Jupiter of the Romans, Zeus of the Greeks, Ormuzd of the Iranians, Marduk o= f the Babylonians, Shiva of the Hindus, Ammon of the Egyptians?=20 Why did the planet Venus=97Ishtar, Athene, Kukulcan of the Mayas or Quetzalcohuatl of the Toltecs=97become the feared deity, as I saw it omnipresent in Yucatan, where I savored a few days this February, writing this paper?=20 Why is this Morning Star shown in sculpture as a feathered serpent on the grandiose monuments of Uxmal and Chichen Itza, where temples were built, on= e upon the other, if not to commemorate the ages, the last of which was dominated by Huitzilopochtli, Ares of the Greeks, who protected the people of Troy, while Athene clashed with him protecting the Achaean host? Why was Mars of the Romans chosen as the protector of Rome, the greatest empire after the Empire of Heaven (Livy), while Athene gave her name to the capital of Attica, as Tanis to Tunisia?=20 Why were human sacrifices brought in this country by the Pawnee Indians onl= y a few scores of years ago, every fifty-two years connected with the Venus calendar?=20 Why did the Ancient Assyrians mark on tens of thousands of clay tablets, free from any mythological theme, astronomical observations, but all data from before -687 are in contradiction to known values such as the duration of the daily rotation of the Earth, the time of the vernal equinox=97that b= y the way was repeatedly transferred, as was also the beginning of the year=97the ratio of the longest and shortest days of the year, the length o= f the month and of the year and the motion of the planets? The legends and myths clearly point to an astral origin of all ancient religions. The problem that occupied the minds of the Classicists, Meso-american scholars. Orientalists, and students of social anthropology and mythology, was not solved in any one of these disciplines separately. Like the early memory of a single man, so the early memory of the human race belongs into the domain of the student of psychology.=20 Only a philosophically and historically, but also analytically trained mind can see in the mythological subjects their true content=97a mind that learn= ed in long years of exercise to understand the dreams and phantasies of his fellow man. Thus I entered a field that should be at the basis of the natural sciences, not only of the human soul and of racial memories, and soon I observed that the divisions in science are but artificial. I had to cross barriers. How could I do otherwise?=20 Upon the realization that we are unaware of the most fateful events in huma= n history, I had before me the task of explaining this well-known phenomenon of repression, the realization of which could also become crucial to the survival of the victim of amnesia playing with thermonuclear weapons.=20 But before that I had the task of confronting the humanistic heritage with the message of stones and bones=97do geology and paleontology carry the sam= e testimony? I went again from shelf to shelf, once more around the Earth, an= d the record from the bottom of the sea and from the top of the mountains, from the deserts, jungles, tundras, lakes, rivers and waterfalls, told the same story=97documented in every latitude and in every longitude.=20 This evidence is presented in EARTH IN UPHEAVAL, which I kept free from any bit of testimony that can be classified as human heritage.=20 The scenes of devastation, mass extinction of many species in circumstances that are by far in excess of what can be considered as local catastrophe, the simultaneous change of climate all over the globe thirty-four and twenty-seven centuries ago, the drop of the level of the ocean and many other phenomena observed, could not be accounted for but by paroxysms in which the entire Earth was involved. A psychological situation provoked the change in the attitude of the scholarly world with the beginning of the Victorian age.=20 The founders of the sciences of geology=97Buckland, Sedgwick, and Murchinso= n (who gave the classification of formations used today); of vertebrate paleontology=97Cuvier; and of ichthyology=97Louis Agassiz=97never doubted t= hat what they observed was the result of repeated cataclysms in which the entir= e globe partook.=20 Actually, Charles Darwin, observing the destruction of fauna in South America, was convinced that nothing less than the shaking of the entire frame of the Earth could account for what he saw.=20 But the introduction of the principle of uniformitarianism by Charles Lyell= , a lawyer who never had field experience, and the acceptance of it on faith by Charles Darwin, are a psychological phenomenon that I observed again and again.=20 Exactly those who, like Darwin, witnessed the omnipresent shambles of an overwhelming fury of devastation on a continental scale, became the staunchest defenders of the principle of uniformitarianism, that became not just a law, but a principle that grew to a statute of faith in the natural sciences, as if the reasoning that what we do not observe in our time could not have happened in the past can in any measure claim to be philosophicall= y or scientifically true. Obviously, a motive is at play that makes appear as scientific principle what is but wishful thinking.=20 For over a century after Copernicus man did not wish to believe that he lives on an Earth that travels, and Francis Bacon and William Shakespeare were not persuaded by that firebrand, Giordano Bruno, of the truth of the Copemican doctrine.=20 Even much less man wishes to face the fact that he travels on a rock in space on a path that proved to be accident-prone.=20 The victory of Darwin=92s evolution by natural selection over a six-day creation less than six thousand years ago made it appear that evolution, th= e only instrument of which is competition, is the ultimate truth. But by competition for survival or for means of existence, never could such different forms as man and an insect with many legs evolve from the same unicellular form, not even in the six billion years that replaced the biblical six thousand. Mutations were necessary, and today we know that by cosmic and x-rays, by thermal and chemical means=97conditions brought about= in the catastrophes of the past=97massive mutations can be achieved. The pre-1950 astronomy followed the same pseudo-scientific statute of faith= , elevated to a fundamental principle, and made believe that the Earth and other planets travel the same paths for the same six billion years, always repeating the same serene circling.=20 Against this violation of the principle of empiricism in science stood my work. In it I rejected the postulate that the ancients, the Greek philosophers Pythagoras, Heraclitus, Democritus and Plato included (O. Neugebauer in THE EXACT SCIENCES IN ANTIQUITY wonders why Plato is considered anywhere a philosopher of any rank 4) were childish in their claims of repeated world conflagrations, and that the ancients were almost imbeciles in their beliefs.=20 The ancients, the canard goes, believed in the Earth placed on the back of = a tortoise. Thus it is preferred to start science three hundred years ago, an= d my work was pronounced (by those who did not read it) as an act of destruction of the entire edifice of science erected by the giants of science since Copernicus. I offered a series of claims that naturally followed from the reconstruction. In science they are usually called predictions, but I prefe= r to term them advance claims.=20 Thus I claimed that Venus, due to its recent birth and dramatic though shor= t history, must be very hot under the clouds, nearly incandescent, and gives off heat=97it has not reached thermal balance; that it must have every mass= ive atmosphere; that the atmosphere consisted largely of hydrocarbons but that if oxygen is present petroleum fires must be burning=97thus explaining also the present massive carbon dioxide content of the atmosphere; that sulfur and iron (ferruginous pigment) must be present too; and that if the same catalytic process that took place on the Earth when it was enveloped by clouds of Venus=92 origin takes place in Venus=92 own clouds, they must con= sist mainly of organic material infused with sulfur and iron molecules. Further, I considered that Venus was disturbed in its rotation. VENUS Venus was found over 750=B0K. hot=97many metals are incandescent at this temperature=97while the consensus of opinion among astronomers was 17=B0C.,= 3=B0 above the mean annua