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Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar

May 14, 2009 03:59 PM
by Martin


True, I was fired about 1200 times...no joke, reality :-)

--- On Thu, 5/14/09, Drpsionic@aol.com <Drpsionic@aol.com> wrote:

From: Drpsionic@aol.com <Drpsionic@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, May 14, 2009, 11:42 PM











    
            
            


      
      You can't fire me.  I'm the World Teacher.

 

Chuck the Heretic

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 5/14/2009 11:47:26 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  

Mvandertak@yahoo. com writes:



Good Idea...you'r fired, lmao!



--- On Thu, 5/14/09, _Drpsionic@aol. Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@aol. com)  

<_Drpsionic@aol. Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@aol. com) >  wrote:



From: _Drpsionic@aol. Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@aol. com)  <_Drpsionic@aol. Drp_ 

(mailto:Drpsionic@aol. com) >

Subject:  Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar

To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com) 

Date:  Thursday, May 14, 2009, 4:04 PM



No, the World Teacher uses clocks and  calendars like everyone else.



Chuck the Heretic



In a message  dated 5/14/2009 2:40:51 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 



Mvandertak@yahoo.  com writes:



Lol, but You are merely 60 yoa...the World Teacher is  Timeless?



--- On Thu, 5/14/09, _Drpsionic@aol. Drp_  (mailto:Drpsionic@ --- On Thu



<_Drpsionic@ _Drpsionic@ <WBR>aol. Drp_  (m_Drpsionic> wrote:



From: _Drpsionic@aol. Drp_  (mailto:Drpsionic@ From: 

_Drp<_Drpsionic@ _Drpsionic@ <WB



(mailto:Drpsionic@ (mailto:Dr>



Subject: Re: Theos-World  K the Messiah claims Adyar



To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_  (mailto:theos- To: _theos-talk@ yahoog



Date: Thursday, May 14,  2009, 6:26 AM



No, I passed. The World Teacher begins his work after the  75 year and I 



joined the TS in 1978.



Chuck the  Heretic



In a message dated 5/13/2009 7:19:29 P.M. Central Daylight  Time, 



silva_cass@yahoo. com writes:



Then you failed the world  teacher test!



Cass



____________ _________ _________  __



From: "_Drpsionic@ From: "_Drpsionic@ <WBR>aol. From:  "_Drpsioni



<_Drpsionic@ _Drpsionic@ <WBR>aol. Drp_  (m_Drpsionic@ <WB>



To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_  (mailto:theos- To: _theos-talk@ yahoog



Sent: Wednesday, 13 May, 2009  2:39:13 PM



Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims  Adyar



1949



Chuck the Heretic



In a message dated 5/12/2009  6:24:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 



silva_cass@yahoo. com  writes:



What year were you born????? No falsifying the dates  now!!



Cass



____________ _________ _________ __



From:  "_Drpsionic@ From: "_Drpsionic@ <WBR>aFrom:  "_Drps



<_Drpsionic@ _Drpsionic@ <WBR>aol. Drp_  (m_Drpsionic>



To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- To:  _theos-talk@ yahoog



Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 2:37:23  PM



Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar



Actually  all us World Teachers have been inveterate pranksters come to 



give  



the world laughing gas for the soul.



Chuck the  Heretic



In a message dated 5/11/2009 10:47:26 P.M. Central Daylight  Time, 



silva_cass@yahoo. com writes:



lol. I don't expect they  would all be world saviours - just messengers



Cass



____________  _________ _________ __



From: "_Augoeides- 222@Augoeides- 2_  (mailto:Augoeides- From: "_Augoeides- 



2



<_Augoeides-  222@Augoeides- 2_ (mailto:Augoeides- _Augoeides- 222@Au>



To:  _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- To: _theos-talk@ ya



Sent:  Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 1:02:21 PM



Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah  claims Adyar



Cass, 



If a "world teacher" came at the end of  every century in the form 



characterized we would have had 20 more  Jesus's all lined up in serial 



order as 



"World Saviors" a  label that I think did have some existance for a while 



during Besant -  Leadbeater era. I never have seen any such thing in my 



coursing  



of histirical records. Who has the list? 



Regards, 



John  



----- Original Message ----- 



From: "Cass Silva"  <silva_cass@ silva_cass> 



To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com  



Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 5:52:11 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific  



Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar 



As you say  K did not repudiate the WT project what he 



repudiated was his part in  the project. I am not surprised that JK 



initially thought of himself  as the new World Teacher operating out of 



Adyar - if 



he had  run with that idea he would have been glorified and sanctified by  



theosophists - I admire and respect him for walking away and believe  that 



his 



conscience 



would not allow him to take on a  role he knew he was not fated for. 



If we are to rely on what Blavatsky  gave us on a coming teacher we must 



also rely on her timeline.  



One could say that both Besant and Leadbeater would have been aware of  



this timeline yet still pre-empted the 'prophesy' of HPB. Blavatsky  



underlined 



her timeframe by stating that at the END OF EVERY  CENTURY there will 



come...... 



One could argue then that  Krishnamurti was their choice (AB/CWL)for next 



world teacher and not  necessarily the man predestined to take on this 



role.  



Blavatsky also pointed out that IF the theosophical society survived  it 



would be the vehicle for the next 



world teacher.  



Besant's comment "Which of us is right only time can show." (12) came  back 



to haunt her! 



>From a dugpa's point of view what better  way to fragment the TS than by 



introducing a 10 year old vagrant to  the idea that he was born to be the 



next 



world teacher. Did  they realise that that they and Leadbeater had picked 



the wrong  candidate or was he the perfect candidate for a means to  



disenfranchise the TS? They succeeded - the TS is no longer the  fortress 



of truth as 



it was in 1800 -but has disintegrated  into a mish mash of psuedo religious 



and psuedo theosophical ideas.  



One must assume that if a world teacher comes at the end of every  century 



- that he is now alive and 



kicking - and one can  assume also that the TS has failed as he is not 



represented as a  theosophist. 



Cheers Cass 



____________ _________ _________ __  



From: Govert Schuller < schuller@alpheus. org > 



To:  theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 



Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 2:04:14 AM  



Subject: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar 



Dear Cass,  



I have to challenge the idea that K really repudiated the WT project.  



He did not. He gave it his own interpretation. 



There might be  satisfaction for anti-neo-theosophic al Blavatskyites in 



the idea that  K completely repudiated the AB-CWL additions/changes/ 



manglings  



to the original Theosophical program. They think that K's criticisms  are 



an additional vindication for their own anti-neo-theosophic al  position. 



I say, not so fast, for K truly believed that he fulfilled  the project 



even to the point of laying claim on Adyar and the TS as  the intended 



instruments for the coming teacher. 



K said:  "Mrs.Besant intended the land at Adyar to be meant for the 



teaching.  The Theosophical Society has failed, the original purpose is  



destroyed." 



I analyzed the statement in my paper on K, tying  it back to HPB's prophecy 



of the 'torch-bearer of Truth.' (full  analysis below) 



Govert 



===== 



Reinforcing this view is  an interesting, and at first sight puzzling, 



remark Krishnamurti made  about Annie Besant and the Theosophical Society 



during 



an  equally interesting conversation in 1979 with his friends, Radha  



Burnier and Pupul Jayakar, while discussing Burnier's possible  candidacy 



for the 



presidency of the Theosophical Society.  "Mrs.Besant intended the land at 



Adyar [the T.S. international  headquarters] to be meant for the teaching. 



The 



Theosophical  Society has failed, the original purpose is destroyed." (9) 



This  remark contains many assumptions and finds its proper context in  



Besant's understanding of the mission of the Theosophical Society and  the 



role of 



Krishnamurti therein. Annie Besant thought she was  fulfilling a mission of 



the Theosophical Society, which was not stated  as one of its official 



objectives, but was given to it by Helena P.  Blavatsky--one of the 



founders of 



the Theosophical Society and  the society's main source of ideas--when 



she, at the close of her  life, announced the coming of a "torch-bearer of 



Truth" for the later  part of the twentieth century. The mission of the 



Theosophical  Society, according to Blavatsky, was to prepare the way for 



this  



"new leader" and prepare "the minds of men....for his message." At his  



arrival the Theosophical Society would be available to him to remove  the 



"merely 



mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties  from his path." Indicating 



the possibility of a glorious long-term  goal of this plan, she states that 



if "the Theosophical Society  survives and lives true to its 



mission...earth will be a heaven in the  twenty-first century." (10) When 



Besant was 



challenged about  her involvement in the Order of the Star and her speaking 



of  



"the T.S. as being the Herald of the coming Teacher," (11) she  defended 



herself by referring explicitly to Blavatsky's view about the  future 



mission of 



the Theosophical Society: "My crime is that  I share it, and do what 



my poor powers permit in preparing the minds  of men for that coming." 



Besant wrote that the only difference between  herself and Blavatsky 



regarding 



the coming of "the next great  Teacher" was that "she put that event 



perhaps 



half a century  later than I do. Which of us is right only time can show." 



(12)  



I think it is reasonable to state that the particulars of Blavatsky's  and 



Besant's views were picked up by Krishnamurti during his formative  years. 



He might even have read Blavatsky's statement referred to  above. If so, 



this 



might provide the ground to put  Krishnamurti' s remark in historical 



perspective, and to explain the  underlying structural similarity between 



his 



remark and  Blavatsky's vision. With this in mind a reconstructed reading 



of  



Krishnamurti' s statement would result in the following: "Mrs.Besant  [and 



Blavatsky] intended [subscribed to the view that] the land at  Adyar [the 



Theosophical Society] to be meant [to be available] for the  teaching [for 



the 



teacher]. The Theosophical Society has  failed [did not to cooperate], the 



original purpose [the mission of  the Theosophical Society to herald and 



aid 



the teacher] is  destroyed [has not been fulfilled]." The point of this 



digression is  to show that implicit in this remark is the self-perception 



of  Krishnamurti as the teacher, who was expected and did come, but found  



the Theosophical Society not cooperative. 



===== 



-----  Original Message ----- 



From: Cass Silva 



To:  theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 



Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 10:13 PM  



Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of  the 



Messiah Craze? 



Quite right Govert, the TS was born in  chaos and continues on this same 



path. HPB told us that her mission  was to bring the ancient truths to the 



western world and to attempt to  stem the spiritual materialism promulgated 



by the 



roman church  and its offshoots. 



As this was addressed to a western audience, it  would require western 



spokespeople 



to transmit this knowledge  - once the knowledge was given it then appeared 



that 



Sinnett  and others thought they were more knowledgeable than their 



teachers. I  



have heard that the more one learns the stronger the ego becomes - and  



this is one 



of the challenges or tests of a chela. 



HPB  unlike Sinnett et al she took those teachings to heart and never  



waivered or 



challenged what was given to her by those she  considered far more 



knowledgeable 



than herself on both  spiritual and social questions. 



Her dissention was mainly against  outsiders - but since her demise the 



dissention 



has come from  insiders - who, in my opinion, distorted the knowledge for 



their  



own quodos to the point of making Annie Besant an incarnate godhead.  



AB and CWL would have been familiar with the teachings on Kali Yuga  and 



would 



have known that Kalki Avatar would not appear before  a million or so years 



- so 



either they promoted Krishnamurti  as a minor avatar they had no reason to 



claim 



a messiah state  for him. As the master said, AB was blinded by her own 



imagination  



and CWL was just the fellow to bring this imaginative fairytale into  



reality. JK, himself, 



recognized this as nonsense and left  their mayavic dreams to its founders. 



I am not convinced that  Krishnamurti was overshadowed by Maitreya, but 



perhaps 



was  overshadowed by his own daimon.? 



Cass 



Cass  



____________ _________ _________ __ 



From: Govert Schuller  <schuller@alpheus. org> 



To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com  



Sent: Saturday, 9 May, 2009 12:14:38 AM 



Subject: Re:  Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the 



Messiah  Craze? 



Cass, 



You say the TS was already in a state of  confusion when taken over by AB & 



CWL or because of them?  



The outcome of one's speculations about the motives of AB & CWL  for doing 



the WT project all depend on how one would regard the  project in the first 



place. If you don't think it was genuine, then  indeed you have to wonder 



why they were doing it. If you think it was  genuine, then a whole 



different 



view of their motivations is  possible. 



BTW, it could be argued that the TS was from the beginning  in a state of 



confusion and was badgered by crisis after crisis.  



Govert 



----- Original Message ----- 



From: Cass Silva  



To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 



Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009  8:59 PM 



Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this  Part of the 



Messiah Craze? 



I disagree Govert, the TS was in a  state of confusion when taken over 



by Besant and Leadbeater, I  believe, they believed, that a World Teacher 



would bring the TS back  to stability and would increase membership. 



She was ready to leave the  TS and join Krishnamurti - what does that 



tell us? 



I was  amused by AB turning the world teacher into a'gentleman' with a  



university education - by doing this she exposed him to a world and an  



awareness of a world outside of Adyar. I don't think he liked the  suits 



as he got out of them as quickly as he could. lol 



Cass  



____________ _________ _________ __ 



From: Govert Schuller  <schuller@alpheus. org> 



To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com  



Sent: Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 1:07:59 AM 



Subject: Re: Theos-World  Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the 



Messiah Craze?  



Daniel, 



The WT project in my view was genuine, but had some  'messiah craze' 



elements, inevitably so given the state of the human  psyche. One of the 



'craze' 



elements was indeed the 'apostle  affair,' which neither CWL nor K believed 



in. It came from Arundale's  'crazed' brain. 



To reason from a few 'craze' elements to the  conclusion that it was only 



'craze' is as fallacious as reasoning from  the belief that the project was 



genuine and that therefore all  elements were genuine. 



HPB's thoughts on messiahship are helpfull to  be extremely cautious about 



such claims. CWL, AB and K lived up to it  to a certain extent. In the end 



it was K who failed and dragged the TS  into a state of confusion and shock 



it has not yet overcome.  



Govert 



----- Original Message ----- 



From:  danielhcaldwell 



To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 



Sent: Monday,  May 04, 2009 11:21 AM 



Subject: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her  Messiah: Was this Part of the 



Messiah Craze? 



Annie Besant on  Her Messiah: Was this Part of the Messiah Craze? 



++++++++++++  +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ + 



Annie Besant at her most  eloquent best: 



------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------  --------- - 



"And now I have to give you, by command of the King, His  message, 



and some of the messages of the Lord Maitreya and His great  



Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of announcement, is  



definitely at the command of the King whom I serve. 



His taking  possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon. 



Then He will  choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their 



chief, the Lord  Himself. He has already chosen them, but I have only 



the command to  mention seven who have reached the stage of Arhatship... 



The first  two, my brother Charles Leadbeater and myself, . . . C. 



Jinarajadasa,  . . . George Arundale, Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini 



Arundale....  



I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally, our  



Krishnaji [Jiddu Krishnamurti] was one, but he is to be the vehicle  



of the Lord. And the other is one who is very dear to all of us, as  



to the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. He had borne his  



crucifixion before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him by his King.  



Those are the first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with  



Himself as the thirteenth. 'Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do  



well, for so I am.' 



------------ --------- --------- ---------  --------- --------- - 



Daniel 



_____http://hpb.cc_ _ (http://hpb.cc_ /)  _ (_http://hpb.cc_ _ 

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